adjourns for the winter break. congressman earl bluenauer of oregon joins us. later, a look at the cost of college with michelle cooper of the institute for higher education policy. host: good morning and welcome to "washington journal." it is thursday, the first day of december, 2011. president obama will speak at a world aids day evens at george washington university. this evening of the first family attends the national christmas tree lighting. the senate continues consideration of the defense authorization bill. efforts move forward on the democrats' payroll tax proposal. the house will work to get rid of the elections consistent position and look at legislation to revamp the regulatory

process. news about the race for president. question for you -- who is the strongest republican in the field who could challenge president obama? here are the numbers to call. republicans -- 202-737-0002 democrats -- 202-737-0001. you can also e-mail us. message us on twitter, @cspanwj. let's look at how the race for the republican nomination is shaping up. strategy in the question."

we can see some graphics here -- "trading places in the national polls." newt gingrich is in red. romney is going down slightly now, but newt gingrich is surging as republicans remain -- this is gallup poll intensity sores. -- scores. there is a new rasmussen poll o ut looking at those two candidates as well as others. newt gingrich has moved to the top of a polls -- the polls in iowa. a new report of national

telephone surveys of likely voters minds gingrich attracting 45% of the vote while president obama -- finds gingrich attracting 45% of the vote while president obama earns 43%. caller: good morning, i think mitt romney is the strongest candidate. i like -- a lot, but the -- huntsman a lot, but the republicans have clearly rejected him. i thought he was the brightest light on stage, along with ron paul. romney is an example of the supposed family values of the republican party, as well as his strong business background -- a strong, a business background. he is basically moderate. republicans are scared of moderates. i want to mention an observation in the mainstream media. on charlie rose -- "charlie

rose," general jim jones was repeating an unsubstantiated claims about iran, as was "hardball." i hope you'll have more scholars on about that subject, because there are a lot of false claims being repented -- repeated. host: john in mississippi. who is the strongest challenger in the field? caller: i think it is romney. he is the only person that is running that would stand up for the american people. > let's g to another independent caller in -- host: let's go to another independent caller, victor in new york. caller: good morning. i agree with the gentleman who just called. ron paul is the only one who tells the truth. even though he has no chance with republicans because of the fact he is the only one that really tells it like it is.

he is the one that has the real constitutional values. he wants to end the war. he wants to balance the budget. host: how would he do in a matchup with president obama? caller: i think he would give him a run for his money. i really would. >> your taxes today, the average middle-class family, your taxes today are lower than when i took office. just remember that. we have cut taxes for small businesses not once, not twice, but 17 times. the average family's tax burden is among the lowest it has been in the last 60 years. so, problem is not that we have been raising taxes. we have been trying to give families a break during these tough times. the payroll tax cut that we passed in december of last year

is set to expire at the end of this year. one month from now. if that happens, it congress does not act to extend this tax- cut -- if congress does not act to extend this tax cut, then most of you, the middle class, will see their taxes go up by $1,000 at the worst possible time. host: president obama speaking yesterday in scranton, and pennsylvania -- scranton, pennsylvania. who do you think is the strongest republican candidate? look at this coverage. the story notes that, in 2008, obama carried

pennsylvania. let's hear from john, republican, maryland. go right ahead. caller: i listened to your c- span coverage of obama yesterday. the top economists keep agreeing with him. they are stealing from social security by giving the tax break. newt gingrich, the conversation last night with sean hannity -- the point was driven home that newt is the only man who can go against him. i love that he will challenge obama to debate, follow him around the country until he agrees to the challenge. fare't expect obama to well. host: stood out for you as you

heard that interview -- what stood out for you as you heard that interview? what made you say, this is the guy who can do it? caller: with aplomb, he calls obama out for who he is, knows where he is coming from, his associations, how the media have been coming -- covering up for him left and right. i heard yesterday on c-span in scranton is that he is calling amount, he is laying back and letting everything fall to pieces. host: let's hear from david in the shenandoah -- in shenandoah. caller: i think mitt romney is the strongest. i think gingrich is just the

player of the week. the tea party does not have a chance. that is my comment. host: as a democrat, do you have someone you hope to see go against the president? caller: i say bring any of them on. obama will crush them all. host: let's look at a comment metwitter -- "i haven't a romney supporter anywhere." this ad came out last night. >> i have spent my life in the private sector. i have learned about how economies grow. we have to take the waste, cut spending. i am in favor of cutting spending got capping federal spending as a% of gdp, 20% or less -- spending, capping federal spending as a percentage of gdp, 20% or less.

by m. mitt romney, and i approved this message -- i am mitt romney. i approved this message. host: this says -- so, what do you think? richie, independent line in massachusetts. caller: i think ron paul is the best candidate. no matter who runs against obama, he will get in any way. this country allows this to be a gimme country. bail me out here, bail me out there. we need somebody to come in and say, this is it, you freeloaders, we will put you on work care. that's what we have to do.

presidency should be only four years. that can be four years of doing the business instead of one year doing business and three years, you know, getting ready for the next election. that is my point of view. thank you very much for listening. host: from realclearpolitics.com, a recent poll looking at the candidates. ron paul is at 8%. perry at 8%. mitt romney is at 21%. newt gingrich is at 23%. michele bachmann 4.8%. 2.3%.ntsman caller: i think that president obama is the best president we have had in my lifetime. he has not gotten credit for the things he has done. i do not think there is anyone in the republican bunch who could beat him. the best one would be romney.

he did the health care in massachusetts. nobody among the social conservatives and the tea party yeaers want him, so i do not see him getting the nomination. host: carl, welcome. caller: i think newt gingrich will be the man. when it comes to debating, i think obama may debate him one time. but when newt eats his lunch on the first debate, he will probably refuse to debate him again. i think newt has asked for an open debate, like a lincoln- douglas debate, but i am sure obama will refuse to do that. he knows that newt is much more than he is. host: as a republican, what do

you think about herman cain's candidacy? caller: i think he is done. all of these sex scandals to away all of his scheme -- took away all of his steam. host: looking at "the new york times" -- let's get to the lines and hear what richard has to say on our independent line in pennsylvania. caller: thank you for taking my

call. i am for buddy roemer or ron paul. best chance to be a obama would be wrought -- mitt romney. they keep putting this abortion issue on. oregon's had a chance to outlaw abortion and they did not -- the republicans had the chance to outlaw abortion and they did not do it. it was just a political ploy. romney is about the best chance they have to beat obama. the rest of them will not do it. thank you. host: this headline from "the washington post." "cain has simple strategy for handling criticism -- blanket denial." caller: we will have to see what the republican does.

host: are you talking about newt gingrich and mitt romney? caller: yes, that's correct. the president does two things. he is politicking and our dime -- on our dime. we're paying millions of dollars every time he goes out, that it's costing the taxpayers. second, he talks about all that he is giving away and never talks about how he is borrowing that money from china. if somebody says, i'm going to give you something for free, you should ask if for free is from china. they are going to have to pay back all the money he is borrowing. host: ruth in pennsylvania. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. the only thing i could say about what is going on now, the president came into a big

problem. they expected to just, like, -- expect him to just, like, solve it in one day. they come up with people like gingrich and romney. we got health care. it is not perfect. nothing we get in this country is perfect. we have the chance to work on it. if you think it is bad now, if you let one of those republicans get in, your health care as it stands now will go. social security -- forget about that. they all want to turn in and just cut it. these republicans seem to not have any kind of heart. all they want to do is cut, cut, cut. i do not think it is about the rich or the poor. they should not make the public

who they serve pay for it like they are doing now. host: mary, a republican caller in tampa. caller: one of the callers asked about newt gingrich and what he said in the interview. as soon as he elected, that night, he will make an executive order to fire all of the czars. obama has gone and expended all of the federal government. it has cost us money -- obama has gone and expanded all of the federal government. it has cost us money. we do not have money to put food on the table. he has bazaars -- czars after czars. what are they getting paid for? the country is in the worst condition it has been in since the great depression. host: do you think newt gingrich is the strongest republican

challenger? caller: i like newt and i like mitt. i am one caller earlier. either one of them would be satisfactory. i think we just need to get rid of obama. he is a nice man, but he is not a leader. he is absolutely not a leader. host: here is what joe says on twitter. carlsbad, california, jillian, independent line. caller: i would vote for romney. i think a lot of super- conservatives like newt gingrich. he is very, very smart, but he is not going to carry the rest of the country outside of a very conservative from a narrow group of people. -- conservative, narrow group of people.

romney is the person i would most like to see running the country. i think obama -- he has done a terrible job. people that keep calling in and saying that he inherited this terrible mess -- everybody who takes on a job that is in a terrible mess gets tired because they say they can solve the problems -- hired because they say they can solve the problems. he is giving this species is argument about the payroll tax cuts -- specious argument about the peril tax cutpayroll tax cu. i pay federal income taxes. he has been a bad precedent. he did not have a lot of experience -- he has been a bad president. he did not have a lot of experience. we wanted to do something politically correct and elect

the first african-american president. romney can actually lead the country. i think that is what we need now. we need a grown-up. host: a democratic caller in south carolina. pat, what do you think? caller: i think newt's no betterni ain't than cain's. if they're going to elect a republican, i think it should be romney. maybe cain should stay in there. i know his wife is ogoing -- going to divorce him. host: let's hear from john. caller: good morning. i think the biggest challenge for obama is the economy. i am a republican. i feel sorry for the man. i think he stepped into a bunch

of nothing but problems. i do not think he knows what to do. i do not think he has the experience. so, the biggest challenger is the economy. and i believe the best president candidate is newt to be the president. host: let's look at a story from "the new york times" national section. it is looking at how candidates often meet in the living rooms of a voter's to pitch their -- of voters to pitch their platforms. the

let's look at some numbers from "the new york times." while rick santorum and jon huntsman have been running more traditional campaigns, others have been relying on television appearances, particularly fox news and fox business, to get out their messages. you can see how the numbers have gone up and down. newt gingrich, not as many appearances, but you can see a buoyant track record there. michele bachmann, ron paul, other candidates. the one with the least amount of appearances is mitt romney. 3 hours, 11 minutes, compared to herman cain's 10 hours, nine minutes, and newt gingrich's over 6 hours. andy, good morning.

caller: i would like to say that i did not care for mitt romney in 2008 and i do not care for him now. he just seems polished. the huntsman guy that used to be the ambassador for china, i did not care for him either. i think he just got in the race to help obama. i'm thrown my support behind newt gingrich because i think he can do the best. he is wise enough to know how to handle the government, knows how it works, and makes obama look incompetent. host: andy, do you think he has the best shot of winning? caller: yeah, i do. he knows the government inside out. obama studied the constitution, but it does not show. he does not show any respect for the constitution. host: i spoke about fox news and candidate appearances on that network. here is a piece from "the daily

piece." -- "the daily beast." cleveland, ohio, steve, republican caller, good morning. caller: hello. goodnk there's some

candidates out there. two guys -- jon huntsman is the most competent. i am worried that people misunderstand, for instance, on the social security tax holiday that is being sold in with money from other tax sources, which basically brings money into the working poor. the working poor bank are still paying fico tax or payroll tax. even though people say it is not a tax, it acts like a tax. the social security trust fund is about $3 trillion right now surplus. that has been very big for pork a long time. i think we need to be -- for quite a long time. i think we need to be rational. jon huntsman is probably the most rational. newt gingrich is probably the least rational, if you start looking at is history. host: what kind of chance to you

think jon huntsman has of beating president obama? -- ben do you think jon huntsman has of beating president obama -- what kind of chance do you think jon huntsman has of beating president obama? caller: pretty good. he is not loud. host: let's hear from william in fredericksburg. caller: people in america were thinking that ron paul would be president. he has all the right answers. fox news that you were just talking about? fox news should have but to occur along the bottom that says it is not really news -- have a ticker along the bottom that says it is not really news. i was really confused when i figured out it was supposed to be real news. host: arthur, a democratic caller in summit point, west virginia. caller: good morning. i would like to comment on

president obama, when he first come in there. he started out really strong. then he just became one of those guys. how the bush administration, they just created so many laws that gave them the power to do anything. then the obama administration's -- the rest of the world wants to prosecute these people for what they have done, these apps of -- acts of raping other countries, and it just went on. i am just a poor man in summit point. i have two small kids. everybody is just down on people that are getting handouts. i am just wanting to live and give my family, my two small kids and my wife, food. and i hear all this about these

handouts. i wish we had the jobs that have gone overseas, that have been taken away from us. these companies like bp -- all the cover-ups that they're doing -- we need a government that will stand up and say no more. i do not think we have anybody out there right now that has shown us that they are that person. i think that person is going to be revealed as it -- it is going to be portrayed by somebody who is going to lead this great country. host: let's take a listen to president obama's first campaign ad. >> i'm barack obama and i approved this message. things need to change. they are going to help change them. that person by another person who shares their values. they go out and find a few more.

before long, neighborhoods come together. communities organized. a movement builds. it all starts with you. get involved. we have so much work to do. call the number on your screen or visit joinobama.com to let me know you're in. host: president obama's first campaign ad, gearing up for the election in 2012. do you think poses the strongest challenge in the gop field -- who do you think will pose the strongest challenge in the gop field? mark weighs in. joshua says "dr. ron paul" is the man who can beat obama. john says his enemies are, number one, the economy, and

number two, newt gingrich. caller: i'm not really fond of any other republican candidates, although i think a moderate would have the best chance. i'm sure people are not aware of how the media have lined up against obama. his lack of imagination to get through to the public -- she had all of these glossy clings when he came into office -- he had all of these glossy claims when he came into office. i do not think he realized how committed the republican elite were to stand against him. over time, this has come to hurt him. right now, everyone stands against him. you hear these lines that the caller's have -- callers have, like when they say he goes out and campaigns and the cost us millions of dollars. we know it is not true, but people are committed to believing it. if you believe it, that is

reality to the person who says it, if you know what i mean. host: looking at a tweet. carly writes an e-mail. you can e-mail us at journal@c- span.org. from naples, florida, republican, what do you think? caller: am i on? host: you are. caller: i think newt gingrich is the best. i think obama is the worst president i have seen in my lifetime. host: what is it about newt gingrich that you think makes him a serious contender? caller: i think he is a good christian. i have reaed two of his books. he is very smart -- smart.

i think he could lead this country well. host: you mentioned his christianity and his values. do his multiple marriages and his admission of an extramarital affair bother you? caller: not at all. his personal life does not bother me. he is smart. clinton had affairs, too, but he got elected. i would not for a democrat or black any more in my lifetime. host: that sounds racist. i'm sorry. but thanks for sharing your comments about newt gingrich. houston, texas, tiffany, good morning. caller: good morning. i have watched the debates. hoenstly -- honestly, they are all awful. i'm not saying that as a democrat. i am saying that as a human

being. they need to really look at these candidates, the harassment, the affairs. it is a bunch of drama. host: who do you think would be the toughest candidate for obama to be to? -- to beat? caller: honestly, none of them. i think he is going to win. newt was kicked out of congress on ethics things. people need to stop looking at fox news and get their facts straight. i have watched fox news. it is a show. it is ridiculous. they are not getting the facts straight. i watch msnbc and i get my facts. i just honestly think that he is going to win again.

i listened to a 90-year-old woman -- he needs congress. you have one man trying to do everything. congress is not going to do anything. republicans do not get is he needs congress. they do not want to help, they do not want to do anything. they want to see him fail. it is just going to get worse. thank you. host: looking at how "the financial times" is covering the republican field --

jumping onto the implications of herman cain's troubles, "the financial times" writes this. brice in bethesda, maryland, independent line. caller: i think ron paul would cause the biggest problems for obama in the general election. however, i think that newt gingrich will probably get the nomination. he seems more into the republican mindset of being aggressive and confrontational. host: a couple of folks have called and expressed the same idea. why isn't ron paul doing better in the national polls? caller: he makes too much sense. he does not fit into the mold the way republicans woant him

to. the in imparted -- the independent party is getting bigger and bigger. ron paul would pull a few democrats to his side. i think he would cause that -- that would mean -- lead to success for him. host: fargo, north dakota, keith, democrats' line. caller: hello. i am sick and tired of this country being -- are you there? >host: we are listening. caller: i am tired of this country having democrat and republican. we are supposed to be joined together as a nation, as a country. and yet, having this republican- democrat said attrition -- separation, republicans are all

the time after democrats, democrats are all the time after republicans. they are always complaining about how we are so far in debt, and yet we are always putting money into foreign countries. and we are always taking in the foreigners. i used to go with a girl -- a woman that was from bosnia. we are taking in all these people, yet we are complaining about our own people that are on disability and all that stuff. when is it going to quit? when are we going to quit fighting other people's wars like iraq and iran and all that stuff? host: who presents the strongest challenge for president obama in the gop field? here is another story from "the financial times."

"romney finds strong allies -- voluble allies on wall street -- valuable allies on wall street." a tweet -- richard, indiana -- ron on our republican line. caller: i think this is a moot question. i think, a lot of the things obama has done -- mickey mouse could beat him. it is unbelievable. the secretary of energy spent millions of dollars, giving it to foreign, green countries. he gave it to domestic grain companies who went bankrupt -- green companies who went

bankrupt. tim geithner, the secretary of the treasury, gave $700 billion, without congressional approval, to foreign banks. this man is the biggest crook, the biggest liar. to vote for obama again, you have to have half a brain or be a communist and eight this country. -- hate this country. host: you do not need to call people names. let's get a different opinion from kevin on facebook. another viewpoint -- iego in waco, texas, independent line. hi, diego. caller: hello. good morning.

in my opinion, i think ron paul would be an excellent challenger. i think his biggest asset our consistency -- asset is consistency. he has been a congressman. i tis -- it is very clear that his positions almost never change, very rarely do. i would like to point out what many people -- i do not think he is a libertarian. his policies are based on the legal limits of government. i think this is his biggest strength. what many people are saying th e tea party supports candidates

such as bachmann and perry -- i do not think it is really the case. i think bachmann and perry are just people who surged temporarily. i think ron paul has been the -- host: let's hear from mary in florida. caller: good morning. i do not believe any other republican candidates will be the one to run against obama. the candidate who will soon come forward is jeb bush. years back, karl rove said he would love to help jeb bush become president. his wife is hispanic. the nra and evangelicals love him. he has big corporations backing him. the strategy, i believe, is to let the republicans were themselves out and juggled -- jeb will step in.

a republican, i hope he does run. the family is very arrogant. i would like to see how this plays out. host: herman cain does plan to keep his rescheduled appointment today with the "new hampshire and union leader -- "new hampshire early union leader -- "new hampshire union leader." he does plan to keep this interview today. there is more about that on c- span.org. we will be following that as it develops. ryan on our republican line. caller: i think newt gingrich is, by far, the best candidate. but all the people that call ina

about ron paul -- the reason that ron paul cannot run is because his policies do not make sense for america. in the real world, they would make some sense -- in a perfect world, they would make some sense, but not in the real world. he could never win. thank you. host: valerie, a democratic caller in lafayette, indiana. caller: hi. none of the republicans should be able to beat president obama. none of them are sane. i don't mean that in a funny way. they don't have what it takes. this man, our ourhas -- our president has tried to solve the problems that were left for him to step into it and he has been met with a brick wall every way

he has tried to go. if the republican congress would work with him, if they truly have the american people's best interest at heart, this would have already taken place. but they have put a line in the sand. host: let's take a look at how karl rove is weighing in. it is called "obama's old-time reelection strategy."

a couple of other op-ed pieces. president george w. bush rights in the "wall street journal -- writes in the "wall street journal" -- he talks about how development has happened, the creation of a global fund to fight aids, malaria, but emergency plan for aids relief -- the emergency plan for aids relief. bono from the group u2 also has a piece on the op-ed page of "the new york times," " a

decade of progress on aids." this is from "the new york times." you can see an image of secretary clinton. let's go to milwaukee. caller: good morning. it is an interesting conundrum that we face today. with the -- without having to list the top five issues that face america, newt gingrich is the only guy who can successfully turn these things around. not to sound too negative on mr. obama, but if you will recall, the man's strength is as a community organizer. that's all good. that's great, but that's not going to address the top five issues this country is facing today. host: all right. let's look at a couple of national news headlines.

also in the "wall street journal" -- that then admission tsunami-stricken nuclear power plan complex came close to a catastrophic meltdown, far closer than previously admitted by the operator. "the cancer clear, but 99% still occupies the lexicon." their slogan still stands. whatever the long-term effect, protesters have succeeded in getting "we are the 99 percent" in the lexicon. coming up, we will talk with earl blumenauer. first, we will talk with republican tim griffin.

we will be right back. >> within 90 days of my inauguration, every american soldier and every american prisoner will be out of the jungle and out of their cells and back home in america where they belong. >> george mcgovern's pledge in the 1972 democratic convention came nearly a decade after being one of the first senators to speak are publicly against the vietnam war. the senator from south dakota suffered a landslide defeat that year to president nixon, but his groundbreaking campaign changed american politics and the democratic party. george mcgovern is featured this week on c-span's "the contenders." from south dakota, life friday

at 8:00 p.m. eastern -- live friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> when i look at why a country does well or it does not, i think it is fundamentally a values thing. it is not natural resources. do you believe the future can be different from the present? do you believe you can control your future? these are not universal. some places they have it, some places they do not. the u.s. has an exaggerated sense of control, but it is good for us to have that. >> this sunday, david brooks. he will take calls, e-mails, and tweets on a variety of topics, including his book "bobos in paradise." david brooks, live sunday on c- span2. >> it is so convenient to listen

to c-span anytime, anywhere. you have streaming audio and can listen to our interview programs, including "q&a," "newsmakers," "the communicators," and woody afterwards -- and "afterwords." >> "washington journal" continues. host: congressman tim griffin represents arkansas's second district as a republican. good morning. your first term in congress. one of the issues you're working on is a proposal to eliminate the pension benefit offered to members of congress. why? calguest: i think the broader issue we need to be addressing is civil servants and employees. we cannot give to that issue. i do not believe we have credibility on that issue unless

we first addressed our own house. -- address our own house. i turned down by congressional pension. i took myself out of the system when i got here. the amount of money represented is a very small piece of the budget. i feel that, to address the bigger piece of the budget, pensions for federal employees, we have to deal with our own. host: when you came to congress as a freshman, was this something that you thought about before? was this a long-held belief? i talked about this on the campaign trail. i talked about whether i would take a congressional pension. that led me into the broader issue of dealing with pensions for members of the house and senate. again, i want to emphasize, for

me, this is not a matter of a moral judgment. this is simply a matter of what we can afford to do. there is an interesting editorial in the "wall street journal" today about american airlines and how the benefits of system that they had in place contributed to their bankruptcy. same with chrysler, same with general motors. if you look at the amount of money involved with congressional pensions, it is relatively small. it is in the millions. when you get into pensions for the broader civil service -- civil servants, federal employees, you are talking about billions and billions. if you fast forward to 2065, you are talking about almost $1 trillion deficit with regard to federal employee pensions. host: here is a story that our guest congressman -- guest,

congressman griffin, is talking about. guest: i think if you look at the last paragraph, it basically talks about how a lot of the pension systems and benefit systems that are still in place today, both in the united states, europe, and elsewhere, were fashioned during a different time, under different fiscal and economic circumstances. as i like to point out, we are not talking about trying to reform or eliminate benefits that most in the private sector get. to the contrary, in the private sector, about 20% of workers get pensions. 80% of public employees get

pensions. what this article points out, if you look at some of these companies, the pension system was a big part of their financial problems. if you look at what is going on in europe, with greece, italy, some of the other countries, particularly in southern europe, you see that a big driver of some of the fiscal problems is, in fact, the defined benefits that european governments have been giving over the years. host: looking at what is happening in the u.k. right now, here is a story from " usa today -- from "usa today." is there a danger in gouging too much and going too far? guest: here is a distinction i think i would make. if you wait too long as a country to deal with your fiscal

problems, then the cuts and the changes and the forms that have to be made impact people now relying on them. if you are able to deal with the problem early enough, then you can simply not impact people currently relying on the system and deal with the next generation. for example, my proposal, in terms of pensions -- and also, i have not introduced legislation on federal employee pensions yet, but the discussion i am having, generally, i do not impact anybody currently affected. i grandfather in people that are relying on these programs, and that is the right thing to do. for example, someone read something about my legislation. they called up my office and

said, do not take away my particular benefit. what i say is, we are not even talking about anybody currently working for the federal government. what we're talking about is getting ahead of the curve, reforming for the next generation, for the folks that have not even graduated from college yet or have not even started working for. the for. -- have not even started working for the federal government. you are not pulling the rug out from those who have built their retirement security around the federal pension, for example. what we're talking about is, grandfather all those people in. they are not impacted. that is a big contrast. they waited so long in europe that the changes have to be drastic. they in europe have to make changes and impacts people now who are currently relying on this -- and impact people now who are currently relying on

this. if we get ahead of this, we can propose changes for the next generation. we can reform medicare to save it. we're talking about people who are currently on medicare, about to be on medicare. those people will see no changes. the same here with these pensions. if you are in the federal government, this does not apply to you. we're talking about saving the system for the next generation. host: congressman tim griffin is our guest, republican, arkansas, second district. let's get to the bones and hear from tony on our democrat line in atlanta and -- phones naand hear from tony on our democrat line in atlanta. caller: good morning. pensionsthink thie

are sustainable. you are right to make reference to europe. i think that is part of the problem as well. i have one question. how widespread is the problem of congressmen who are what i call "insider trading"? i know that is a strong phrase, but they are able to trade based on information that they get before the general public gets it. guest: i have never had any personal contact with that. in terms of it being a topic of discussion, i think it was on " 60 minutes." i, for better or worse, am not one who has a lot of stocks to trade. i do not think i have traded once while i have been in

office. i certainly do not go around asking my colleagues on a daily basis whether they have been trading stocks. the first that i have really heard anything in debt about this was through the press -- in-depth about this was thr ough the press. i don't know how you would determine how widespread it is. i guess you could take all the financial disclosures a year from now and see what plays were made. it is something that we need to be cognizant of and take a look at and see what we can do to address the concerns that folks have. i think a lot of members of congress put their money in trust and have other people make those decisions for them. i do not have that issue in my personal life, because i do not have a lot of stock. host: it can run the gamut,

anything from controlling how they invest, to how they trade, to how they move money around while sitting in congress. guest: if information is on the front page of the newspaper, then obviously, that is public information -- that may impact markets. i have no problem looking at reforms that set guidelines. i'm fine but that'. it has not been a personal issue for may. host: craig from utah. good morning. caller: i just returned from iraq after eight years. the united states has no fiscal balance at all.

oil jumped and destroyed every economy in the world. nobody ever mentions that. we're squabbling over money because we don't have any. oil prices are so high. we have no fiscal balance with the imports and exports. we're basically wasting our time. we have to change that first. all the rest of that will come into place. we have nafta, which is not working. host: what were you doing in a iraq? caller: i was a security contractor. guest: energy costs has an

impact on our pocketbooks and on our economy in terms of job creators. if a company that hires people have to pay more in energy costs, then they can hire fewer people. that takes money away from other things you could be spending it on. i agree with that. we need to be doing more to be energy independent. that is why i am absolutely confused and puzzled by the president's delaying a decision on the keystone pipeline. i have a company in arkansas and they make pipe to be used in the

keystone pipeline. they have made about 700 miles of pipe already. they are now concerned about the future of this project. the president instead of saying it will make this decision as soon as we can, he said we will make it after the election. that is almost a year away. i think it is a purely political decision. there are jobs of theire. there are different things we can be doing in terms of energy, drillling more. i met with some leaders of the canadian embassy in washington. they said they want to do this deal with us on the keystone pipeline.

they said they will go to china. host: congressmen .witter.com/cspantim griffin legislation would eliminate the pension benefit. here's how gordon weighs in on twitter. guest: that is not true. there was a good study earlier this year that shows that on average, federal employees make more than the private sector. most in the private sector do not give pensions. in fact, the companies in the private sector that give 401(k)'s on average match up

with 3%. in the federal government, you get maxed up to 5%. very generous 401(k) plan. the benefits in the private sector are still not as generous as the federal government, and that's just a fact. you can say what you will. but when you were out of money, you're out of money. a lot of the workers that are being put out of work in europe, if they had to do over and go back 20 or 30 years to change some of these systems so that they do not lead to that place, they would go back in time and fix it. host: what about the argument

that you only get people who are really wealthy, who can afford to put their finances on hold to work in congress? is important to have incentives for regular folks? guest: absolutely. i ran for congress and i'm not wealthy. i turned down my pension. most folks to run for congress to not run for the pension. they do not go through all the things you go through running for office, putting your name out there, they do not do that so they can get a pension, most of the people that i know. i think they would be rare.

it would be different if we were somehow changing something, reforming something that the private sector supplies routinely, provides routinely. but we are not. the alternative in the private sector -- it is not like the alternative in the private sector is different. i think there are plenty incentives to run for office if you want to surf. we are paid well. we have generous health-care benefits. this is not about a moral judgment. we just cannot afford to keep doing this. host: let's look at the numbers of congressional pensions.

host: lancaster, pennsylvania on the independent line. good morning. caller: the root of the problem is that we have career politicians. the root of our fiscal problem. the solution would be to go to legislators. amend the constitution so everybody would serve one term and one term only. there would be no need for -- you would pay the 401(k) like you would in the private sector. theyar as the congressmen, vote in how much their pay is.

set it as a percentage of the median income of the nation. .et's say it is 50,000 then you subtracted difference. a person more interested in public service and less interested in their own gain. guest: thank you for your call. salaries are a different thing. at some point they get so low that it take the -- a lot of folks that would run it would not run. to address the other point you made, one term of two years in the house of representatives and you would just be figuring out

where some of the rooms are after two years and then you would be gone. i don't think that is a good solution. i do not think anybody would figure out the complexities of the budget or what have you. i thought i knew a lot about the budget before it ran. i have learned a lot since i've gotten here. when i look at the people who vote particular ways, that work with me on both sides of the aisle in the senate, when i looked at how they vote, that generally is not based on whether they have been there a long time or not. it is based on philosophy. you could have someone who has been here for 20 years or 10

years who is a bold reformer, who is conservative, who has shaken things up and has been trying to shake things up for a long time. you could have someone that just got here this year who is just the opposite. i know we are looking for ways to fix problems or perceived problems. i do not think there is always a correlation between that. but i appreciate your call. host: "usa today" in the forum section. "time for term limits." let's go for a tweet. let's talk about that. this is coming out of congress

office.fferengifford's "25 lawmakers urged the super committee to cut salaries to reduce the federal deficit." this is a major issue she pushed before she was injured last january. guest: i hear about automatic pay raises back home. we have frozen pay for members of congress. i have given up my pension because, lord willing, i will keep on working. my grandfather was a minister and he worked until he was 91. i hope the lord blesses me that way.

at some point you deal with the here and now. i can deal with the future. if today you cut the salary in half, i think you would find people that have to go back and do their other jobs. there are areas which could come ut. we have cut our staffs and frozen our salaries. you need to make sure that you do like we're proposing -- you have to give notice so people can decide to do something else. if you said let's make this a two-year deal and you get paid $50,000 or $100,000, you have to

give people notice so they can go back home and get a job doing something else. no one is proposing going around the federal government and cutting the federal government salaries. that is not what this is about. this is about reforming pensions so that in the congress, so can reform pensions within the federal government. with anot just tweaking little money. the start on the federal government pensions and you were talking about hundreds of billions of dollars over the coming decades. that is what this is about. it is sort of apples and oranges. host: new york, new york. caller: i am an immigrant from cuba.

a legal immigrant. i am proud of you, congressman, for renouncing your pension. the immigrant situation, the illegal immigrants, about 70 million or something like that -- 17 million. as a legal immigrant from cuba, why don't we parole -- i am using the word "parole" -- i and a naturalized american citizen. there's a difference between me and an american-born. i cannot run for the presidency. if someone is already here at

five or 10 years, why don't we parole that person? make him legal, not with a green card but with a red card that would be his id. that person would be liable to be a good standard citizen of the united states legally, not looking over his shoulder to be deported. instead of 10 people or 15 people living in one house, not able to do certain things legally, by giving that parole for x amount of years, that person is legal to do things that are normal green cards citizens is able to do. guest: thank you for the

question. we have a system in place for giving people legal status. but they have to stand in line, not come across the border, swim or run illegally. you talk about someone coming up illegally from south of the border. we have a system in place. you have to stand in line and follow the rules. i do not think you say to people who are following the rules, keep waiting while we give legal status to people who broke the law to get here. that is not a good way to go. we spend money in iraq and afghanistan the rule of law.

there's a lot of opportunity to change immigration law on the legal side. there is support for some change. not comprehensive reform. on the issue of legal immigration, i'm working on a bill and it relates to stem graduates, and i hope to be introducing its soon. we give foreign students who come to the united states a college education and they will come over and get a degree and then when they are done with that degree, then they cannot get illegal immigration status

to stay here even if they can get a job. there are lots of jobs for those people who are competing with the americans. we educate those people. they graduate. then we tell them, you cannot stay to work here and help our country and vans. you have to go back home and compete against us. what we say in this bill -- this is reforming legal immigration. we say, if you comair as a foreign student and -- if you come here as a foreign student and get a master's or ph.d. in the stem field, an area where we do not have enough americans to fill those slots, if you get

that degree and you can find a job, then we will keep you here, because we want you helping us advance and not competing against us. host: don, a republican caller. caller: the congressman is dealing with pensions for employees for the government. does that include military personnel in as much as they are forced to leave their employment at an earlier age than anyone else? thank you. guest: it does not include military pensions. i think the military is a separate entity. i served in the army.

i'm still in the army and i will try to continue to stay in the army through my congressional service. that is something altogether different. i am on the armed services committee. that is something that is completely separate. host: an e-mail came in. let's look at some of the details about what you want to see happen. this is an excerpt from the letter sent to the super committee. guest: sure. this is a critical, critical

point. if you stop with just the congressional pensions and you don't go beyond that -- host: no pay changes. guest: if you just are looking at what members of congress get in terms of pensions, you're wasting your time in terms of making a big dent with regard to the deficit and the debt. this is a miniscule percentage of the federal budget. if we stop with congressional pensions, we're not getting very far. dealing with congressional pensions is a door, a gateway to get to the broader issue federal employee pensions so that we can reform them.

the conversation goes like this. i would like to look at reforming civil service pensions. "when we do something about yours?" let's fix our house first. the real money here that can help get this on track fiscally -- people ask what we would cut? this is not millions. millions is a drop in the bucket. billions is where the real money is. when you are talking about giving a federal employees' pensions decade after decade were they paid a little bit and the government pays a lot, you are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars.

this is a step to get to where we need to be. millions of dollars when not impact the deficit the with the broader billions will. host: how long do you have to serve to get a pension? guest: you vest after five years. my understanding is that is the same five if you are a federal employee. i have six years as a civil servant. when i started in congress, i would have done is building on what i had. this does not impact any single person. this is for members of congress. this is a conversation about where we need to go -- this says

nothing to do with people currently working for the federal government. host: john from kentucky. caller: good morning. my congressman diaz's salary to charity -- gives his salary to charity. we gave that huge, huge money to the banks. maybe we could limit the pensions of these guys making a exorbitant amounts of money. a caller talked about term limits. it is to shame we got where we are. i think this congressman is sincere. the game has gone out of control. i saw the piece on "60 minutes."

people are sick of both parties. i would give two terms, but they have to raise so much money. if somebody gave me wonder thousand dollars -- $100,000 and someone else did not give me money, who are you going to listen to? i watched "the contenders." guest: thank you. when i ran, i said that i would term limit myself to six terms. i've got two young kids and this is tough enough in my first 11 months being up here.

folks talk about the money aspect of that. the people that i work with, you hear a lot of talk about this is going on. the folks i work with day in and day out, particularly the ones i were close with, their hearts are in the right place. a lot of them took massive pay cuts to come here. what you're talking about exists, but i think it is the minority in terms of people that are here to make money or whatever. there is a lot of misinformation about benefits and donations. you said if someone gives somebody $100,000 -- well, no one can give an body $100,000.

an individual can give up to $5,000 per election cycle. i raised almost $2 million. i have a lot of people that give $1,000 or $2,000 out of $2 million. that is for my campaign. that is not for me personally. there are limits to what people can give. the folks that i know, they are standing up for what they stand for because they ran on it and they believe in it and think it is important. a lot of the disagreements, the gridlock, not because someone was given money. people have different visions of

where this country should go. if we had a different system -- i do not want a different system. things will be flying through all the time with little or no disagreement. the prime minister picks the cabinet and rules on through. i did not like that system and the founders did not like that system. the founders said it will spread the power around. you got to get agreement. if not, nothing happens. you can call gridlock. the founders liked that. it is frustrating for me. we have had over 800 votes in the house.

we pass stuff. it stacks up like cordwood in the senate. i'm frustrated. here, spend a week -- i feel the frustration. there are two different views of where this country should be going. host: mike, a republican in north carolina. caller: i want to applaud you on the stands you have taken -- on the stance. the republican base that i'm from in the north carolina area is highly conservative. we see growia growing anger of

the american people at the federal government, and all governmental levels because of what is going on. being a conservative republican, i was raised to believe that you live within your means. we did not see that happening. i can see the anger building more and more towards our government. i would like for you to comment on that. guest: thank you. a lot of people feel your anger and frustration and a lot of them are serving in congress. if we were to of passed the balanced budget amendment, we would not have the debt that we have today. i voted for four cut capital

balance -- i voted for cap and balance. i voted for the house budget. it gets us on a sustainable path. it was called extreme by folks who run ads against me. there are a lot of people up here that want to live within their means. a majority in the senate and the president have a different vision. the president needed to start this year by saying there is a debt commission, let's start with those ideas and let's get this fix. he ignored his own commission and proposed a bigger budgets. we have to get more people

serious about living within our means. host: representative tim griffin from the barack area -- from the little rock area. up next, a discussion with earl blumenauer. but first a news update. >> joe biden says we're not claiming victory in iraq. he believes the emerging government is capable of defending itself. he did acknowledge security concerns but said violence is at an all-time low. he said the united states takes immense pride in what american troops have done in a riraq. iraq has requested an extension

but this is the same roadblock that prevented an ongoing u.s. military presence in the country. today's world aid today. president obama is setting a new goal of getting aids drugs to 2 million people around the world. he will announce he is directing a $50 million increase in spending on aids treatment in the u.s. c-span is covering the event. those are some of your latest headlines. >> within 90 days of my inauguration, every american soldier and every american prisoner will be out of the jungle and out of their cells and back home in america where they belong. >> george mcgovern's pledge at the 1972 democratic convention came nearly a decade after being one of the first senators to speak out publicly against the

vietnam war. the senator from south dakota suffered a landslide defeat that year to president nixon, but his groundbreaking campaign changed american politics and the democratic party. george mcgovern is featured this week on c-span's "the contenders." from south dakota, live friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> it is so convenient to listen to c-span anytime with the c- span radio app. you can listen to our interview makers."include ". makenews find out more and c- span.org/radioapp. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are now joined by earl

blumenauer. a lot of bills are coming up. we want to start with a proposal to extend the payroll tax breaks. the plant of paying for those breaks is different from what democrats are proposing. are you confident the payroll tax extension will be worked out? guest: i would be confident that something will occur. i think the proposal being advanced by the democrats is larger and helps tip the scale. during $100 billion of economic activity out of the overall economy, raising taxes because of a tax break that goes away at a time when families are still struggling creates a dynamic

where i would be surprised if there isn't something that comes forward. i hope the looks closer to the proposal by the democrats. host: let's look at the proposal. it would reduce the payroll tax . host: if that were to happen, those making $50,000 would save 1005 under fifth dollars-- $1,550. it would be cut to 3.1%.

this is a plan you are on board with. guest: by giving a boost to smaller businesses, it adds a new element and it comes a time when the economic signals around the world are a bit disquieting. i am hopeful there will be prompt action. we seem to have the end of your show down repeatedly. this is something people can come together on. host: the president was in pennsylvania today talking about the plan. >> your taxes today are lower than when i took office. just remember that. [applause] we have cut taxes for small

businesses not once, not twice, but 17 times. the average family tax burden is among the lowest it has been in the past 60 years. we have been trying to give families a break during these tough times. that payroll tax cut that we passed last december, is set to expire at the end of this year, one month from now. if that happens, if congress does not extend this tax cut, the most of you, the typical middle class family, will see a taxes go up by $1,000 at the worst possible time. host: let's turn to the republican plan. this is from "the washington post" today. a proposal to extend the current pay freeze for federal workers for an additional three

years and force higher earners to pay more for programs such as medicare. host: different from the democratic proposal. guest: taking any meat axe to federal employment. they have been subject are ready to sell refreezes. this does not take into account areas where we have difficulties hiring people. the notion that will prohibit the wealthy from collecting food stamps -- give me a break.

wealthy people did not qualify it for food stamps. that is a ruse. it moves away from what we should be doing in a wide ranging adjustments. most american people recognize that it is appropriate to make adjustments in terms of overall taxes that the wealthiest of americans pay. the democratic proposal would have a small surcharge on income above $1 million. host: 2.5%. guest: playing games with wage and work force freezes. we should sit down and deal with fundamental restructuring. republicans -- there are opportunities to squeeze

hundreds of billions of dollars out. wasting money on nuclear weapons that we do not need and we can destroy the world hundreds of times over. we can change deployment patterns with the navy to more productivity. we should stop the gimmicks and deal with the specifics. i hope that we do not flounder on this important extension of the payroll tax by going off on these flights of fantasy. host: we're speaking with representative earl blumenauer. we heard from president obama if you seconds ago. this is mitch mcconnell. >> the debate we're having is not about whether to extend this temporary relief for millions of working americans who are struggling as a result of the ongoing jobs crisis.

it is at about whether we should punish the private sector businesses that the american people are counting on to help turn this economy around. the president and democrats in congress say we should recoup the revenue we will not care for one group of taxpayers. a significant number happens to be employers. one way or another, they want the money, back to washington so the president and his allies can divvy it up how they want, protecting the politically favored few. host: a chance to respond. guest: it is wrong on so many different levels. "socking it to small business." we're talking about 300,000 people who make over $1 million a year in income.

they dissipate all but on the access. mitch mcconnell knows the vast majority of people in this category are not small businesses. the majority of small business income is derived on the income- tax never gets close to that threshold. a lot of these people -- we're talking but trial lawyers and hedge fund managers and people with significant income who are organized in this way for tax purposes. it is not going to affect massive hiring. we have people going to factories and a large number of small stores. it is trying to use a line that more and more people understand is not accurate. host: many bills will be coming up before the end of the year.

you can call on the republican line, 202-737-0001. on the democratic line, 202-737- 0002. for independents, 202-628-0205. outside the u.s., 202-628-0184. or about this undermining social security in the long run. to pay for social security. democrats and republicans are talking about cutting this further. is this something that could undermine social security? guest: this is not a continuing strategy. it took place in an extraordinary circumstance where we have a tax cut that was part of the recovery act that most americans didn't know they got because it was structured to encourage spending and not send out a big check that people

would look out and put in the bank. we wanted to stimulate the economy. the payroll act was the approach that would be favored by the republican colleagues. i do not want this to be gone on an ongoing basis. i hope this is the lesser we have to do this. i would like to, the long-term restructuring of defense, health care, agriculture, and have tax reform that i think would be accepted by the vast majority of americans in a way that provides the revenue we need that doesn't require these gyrations. host: next year congress will have the will to put the tax-- part onthat depends in

what the voters do next november. they want a biit balanced. if the voters sent a mixed message, we could be back at it next holiday season. host: it republican from north carolina. caller: good morning. this guy should put out a magazine. he has a pretty good idea. he has the boatw tie. he's right. i'm disabled and schizophrenic. my ego runs away from me from time to time. even disabled people, if they

can work a few hours a day and just help out like the subsidize work force. host: do you think the payroll tax should be extended? caller: i think the payroll tax -- well, i think it is find more it is at. ast: let's go to ann, democrat from fresno. caller: good morning. i think they should let the extension expire. all they're doing on the payroll tax -- it is hellbent the business people. it is not helping the worker -- it is helping the business people. in the long run, they are getting less on their

retirement, their social security. there is a promise they will replace eit if they do this fora year or two. every time somebody is not working, they are losing on a daily basis their retirement. go to another issue, the extension of the unemployment benefits. up to 6 million people what benefits could be affected if no action is taken. do you think congress will act on this before the end of the year? guest: in normal times i would have said yes. we have extraordinary times and weird politics. the extension of unemployment has been caught up with the

ideology and theology of others and we have seen a tremendous push back. the senate required -- there was a filibuster. you have to get over 60 votes to consider unemployment -- i think this may get caught up in the ongoing the logical pushed back. we have persistent unemployment and record corporate profits at a time when these corporations or employing fewer people. long time unemployment is up. i come from a part of the country where it is 9% unemployment and in rural and small-town america, the unemployment rate is much higher in the northwest, from the country, and that would be a big hit to these hard-hit areas

where there aren't the job opportunities. host: we have a chart. host: you say you're for extending the benefits. if the cost $50 billion. guest: unemployment historically has been a partnership. the government steps in. there is a program and they are supposed to make it self financing by having a payroll tax. past onve seen in the 1e chart, we're talking about million long-term unemployed as

opposed to 5 million that we have today. many states cut the payroll tax. they did not have the trust fund. they did not extend it across the board. they created the legislature greeted the funding -- if the states would do their job to have a sustainable unemployment program that meets the needs today and treats all employers in a reasonable fashion, we can fund this over the course over the next decade without making it cataclysmic. that is the cost of doing business. host: a comment on twitter.

let's go to liz. caller: i want to applaud your guest for his take on this issue. we must continue unemployment and a payroll tax. there is a disconnect between the republican and democratic parties. you guys are so out of the loop about how we people are suffering. my parents lived through the depression. i feel like we're living through the depression all over again. the founders believed in consensus government. when did either party asked we the people what we want. that is why we have occupied movements all over the country. i encourage everybody, occupy delaware online and see how we can fix washington, d.c., and

this two-party system. you dance to the one that brought you to the dance. there was a time when the democrats stood for the people. republicans are standing for corporations. guest: it is something that is troubling to me. i have a wide range of issues that i work on to try to bring people together, areas of reform is something i've worked with with some of my colleagues. there are areas of common interest. host: the new farm bill is something you have been working on. guest: i grew up when there was operation.

i organized democrats for hatfield when he was in danger of losing office because i thought it was the best for the country. i have worked with democrats and republicans in the past. i have never seen it like the refusal to move forward. the super committee was a golden opportunity to get around the procedural rules in the house and the senate. there was a refusal to of a balanced approach. it was something that house democrats advanced. i think it goes back to the message that we're going to have next election day that people are going to need to speak out about whether -- in terms of the expectations they have and the performance. simple things like we have today

on the payroll tax extension is a clear delineation, and i hope the public will be heard over the course of the next week. host: we're talking with congresswoman earl blumenauer. let's go to a republican from nebraska. good morning. caller: i am happy to receive your acceptance. 95% of the people professed christianity in their life and all the have to do is to go back to chronicles -- host: do you have a question? caller: we could be healed by --

the bible says this. let me just read it. that is all it takes. they shall humble themselves and pray. then i shall hear them from haven't and i will forgive their sins and i will heal their land. host: walt talking not going to a higher power -- talking about going to hire power. guest: i believe if it does not have to be this hard. a national consensus is emerging. i am hopeful we can give expression to that consensus that is emerging. the public knows this is within our capacity. making actions now and moving over the course of the next decade, we can bring these

problems under control. host: let's talk about the ticking clock. confidence for that happening, the idea of another shot down is looming. guest: one thing that is clear about the consensus is that more and more of the american public feel the republicans is more to blame than the democratic party or president obama. having flirted with a shutdown before and coming up to the brink of the debt ceiling crisis, i think some of my republican friends are starting to have second thoughts. much less likely there will flirt with disaster going into the holiday season because the public will put that squarely on their shoulders. the cuts that have been made are

starting to be felt. i'm getting complaints from people back home. there are problems with education the transportation bill has been stalked and threatened we should be building in this country. idon't think republicans -- don't doubt the capacity to do that. leadership is a hostage to the tea party people during this primary season. it is getting less likely. host: you talk about more cuts to come. these intercuts are starting to come in place. i have read you think these trigger cuts are a good thing and should happen, that we can

do nothing and accomplished something. guest: better than having some of the bizarre things that have been talked about and the draconian attacks on infrastructure, health care, the safety net, if we end up with the sequestration process, that gets us a long way along with the expiration of the bush tax cuts. . .

caller: good morning. just give me a few minutes because i just woke up to get to you on time. good morning, representative. i agree with everything you're saying, and i also notice that i have heard that, you know, the tax pledges, a lot of the republicans are trying to get out of it and a lot of republicans say they can't get out of it. these people are trying to get out of it because they know how other people feel. we've had all these millionaires and billionaire s come to washington and tell them, congress, they want their taxes raised, and i guess

republicans or whoever don't want them raised, but they still speak out and say we want our taxes raised. host: let's let the congressman respond on the tax pledges of your colleagues. guest: most of us take seriously our pledge to the constitution of the united states and a pledge that supercedes their constitutional responsibilitys is a bit weird and there are people who understand it is not just a political ploy, but it has crippled us as we try to move forward and more and more of my republican colleagues are reconsidering, reneging, it has backed the republicans back into a corner that i think is unfortunate part of the problem is the republican gong show going on in the nominating process

in the presidential sweepstakes fires up the minority of the base that has this fear ideological position on things like immigration, on the tax pledge and that is a difficult play for many republicans who are running for office, because the base adheres to it, but they are trying, i think, to walk it back. i think things will get better. host: has it given the democrats an opportunity to message on this? guest: it is a very clear distinction, and when you have the lowest tax collection since the truman administration as a percentage of the g.d.p. and we have a growing and aging population and needs right now because the economy is soft, most people recognize that there will be and

should be modest tax increases. host: a question on twitter about your hoax state. why did oregon have the highest number of people on welfare and recipients on food stamps? socialism does not work. guest: well, that is not accurate. we have had problems in the pacific northwest, problems in oregon. i don't think that food stamps are socialistic. i think actually food stamps are part of the basic safety net at a time when food ago cute is harder to come by. the irony is that it's not the blue states. it's the red states that collect more federal benefits. it's the red states that have the lower income. blue states have tended to pay higher taxes and receive less benefits as a rule, but

food stamps, i think that debate has been settled for most of america, although there continues to be problems in terms of how we administer it and some people want to balance the budget there. that's the last place i would look, not the first. host: let's go to the independent from gainesville, florida. you there? caller: yes, sir. host: go ahead, talk with the congressman. caller: good morning, sir. an ongoing problem is the congress itself or the leaders itself. no common man ever did anything wrong to create this situation and the people -- the congress or the leaders who are in power from 2003 to 2008 leaving us

with all this creation of this situation or whatever, i do not know know who all the members were, but mr. bush said the war would be paid off. he said in his speeches he has told us the war would be paid off, anyway, but -- host: you think the situation we're in right now dates back to 2008 and we're still digging our way out? caller: we came to know in 2008 that we were in a dire situation. before that, all things were covered up. host: we will get the congressman to respond. guest: i appreciate the sentiment of the caller but the fact is a number of these problems have been years in the making. they got worse during the bush administration. i remember distinctly having this notion that we had --

we were facing a $5 trillion surplus and so we had to cut taxes, and then we were facing a problem with the economy not working and we were supposed to cut taxes. we embarked on a war of choice, which i was opposed in iraq, and it was going to, quote, pay for itself and that's $2 trillion, $3 trillion total cost all in before we're through taking care of our veterans and collateral damage, and we were on a spending spree and we also made some mistakes in terms of what happened with the banking deeg regulations, and it would have never have passed today knowing what we know and how poorly the regulators operated. there is lots of blame to go around in terms of the private sector, the public sector and we as citizens i think were not as vigilant in pushing back, but now, knowing what we know, it's

time to move forward. we're making these simple common sense adjustments to get us started. >> going back to the issues you have to deal with in the next 31 days, this is from gene in milliken, colorado, the payroll tax cut is a cut to the social security insurance fund and it is fodder to those who want to destroy social security by saying that social security is taking in less than it is paying out in benefits even though there is a $2.6 trillion surplus. this is paving the way for privatization. concern about there about what this does to social security. guest: given the efforts in the past to privatize social security, people should be concerned. if we had gone down the path suggested by president bush and having people investing in private accounts when the big meltdown hit in 2008, 2009, people's retirement security would be devastated but right now the payroll tax that has been reduced has been replaced by the

general treasury. it hasn't reduced the trust fund surplus, but it is more of an accounting gimmick, and i think we are playing with fire if we go down the road too long without readjusting the tax balance, but in the short term, the way it has been structured does not reduce the trust fund, does not affect anybody's benefits but it's problematic if this turns into an annual ritual. >> again, we're talking with congressman bloomen. >> from oregon and let's go back to our caller. caller: good morning. i would like to touch on a couple points. what scares me about the situation is that the mathematics show we're 95.5% insolvent. that is bankrupcy. you can't come back from that. the military says the number one threat to the nation,

the nation's security is the debt and the spending, so one of my he questions -- i have two. one of my questions is how could a democrat like patty murray in a commission chartered to cut costs where we have $50 trillion of unfunded liabilities and they can't even cut $1.7 trillion? the woman before me that called about george bush's war of $1.7 trillion unfunded, congressman, i agree, we need a tax immediately as we go to war for the people to pay a war tax. i don't agree with what republicans did with respect to that. host: what is your second question for the congressman? caller: my second question is that how much faith does he really have in the media considering the president said before the midterm elections and said latinos get out there and vote against your enemies. sir, please comment on this, if a republican president would have said white people, get out there and vote against your enemies, just think what world we would be living in right now.

guest: i'm not sure what reid was talking about in terms of what was said on the campaign trail. let me speak to the notion about the nation teetering on the break of insolvency. we're not greece. in fact, very smart people are investing billions of dollars in the united states every day, lending it to us on very favorable interest rates because we are the island of stability. we are more transparent than the chinese, and we have the capacity to deal with our problems. the unfunded liabilities for pension programs, public and private is troubling. we have serious long-term healthcare challenges that totals trillions but the point is these are things that are manageable, that we can address. if we make modest adjustments to social

security and medicare, they will be sustainable over the long haul. many of the people in the northwest like in portland and the seattle area practice medicine in a way that cuts -- that is much less expensive than thing national average, and it provides better outcome. these are things americans know how to do if we translate them into policies. the healthcare reform act incorporated many of these things as pilot projects and tests. if we accelerate it and do it, we can reduce our healthcare costs, which are the highest in the world and improve quality of healthcare. we can make adjustments to our military establishment that will save hundreds of billions of dollars and we would still be the most powerful nation in the world. it is stepping up and doing what most people know we should do and know how to

do. >> he brought up the concerns about cuts in the military spending and secretary panetta sent a letter to john mccain in which he said that the impact from the cuts from the trigger would be devastating to the department. guest: with all due respect, i know leon panetta and i respect him. he is doing his job, but the fact is by changing how the navy does business, he can improve his productivity and save money. i absolutely do not think if we keep doing business the way we're doing now and if we have political engineering of weapons systems, if we go down the path of building our nuclear stockpile rather than reducing it and refining it, absolutely it will be catastrophic, but we can save $100, $200 billion just in terms of right-sizing the military arsenals.

host: what would you say to secretary panetta to go back and look for more of these kinds of things? guest: leon can do this. he has been director of omb and if he is free from some of the political constraints, if there is a political consensus behind him and he's given ten years and he hasn't done politicians looking over his shoulder as we had recently in the battle that we had in the last congress with senator kyl, insanity, absolute insanity. these are things that we can reduce down. we are spending almost as much as the rest of the world combined, and we can't do it and we don't need to do it. host: let's get one more call in. per are i is a democrat from st. louis, missouri. good morning. >> good morning. thanks for taking my call.

i'm 53 years old and all my life, i thought social security wouldn't be there by the time i get to the age to use it. i look at it as something paid every month, never been missed. the reason why i wasn't sure it would be there but the democrats always fought as the primary need for people when they got old it would be there. now we have president obama throw social security on the table and they're going to raise the age once again. it's a lie we're living longer. we're living about the same we were as 20 years ago and i'm amazed that they are allowing cuts on social security, which is going to be the democrats doing that and i will no longer vote democrat or republican, thank you. host: i am quite confident that our caller will be able to collect his social

security when the time comes. this is a bedrock commitment that we have made. people have been paying into it now for 75 years, and the adjustments that are necessary to make it completely solvent over the course of the next 75 years into the future are not that cataclysmic. i personally think that you can take any six people in a rotary club with an internet connection and a piece of paper and they could come up with two or three minor adjustments that would make social security solvent over the long haul. even if we do nothing, it will still pay 75% of the benefits, a third of a century when the trust fund runs out. there is concern that every time there is an economic downturn in the future that the payroll tax comes back on the table now that we're talking about it a second

time in two years? guest: i think there are better approaches, i hope we're dealing with tax reform and getting the economy moving. i think that this is not the default mechanism that we ought to go to all the time to try and stimulate the economy. i would much rather take the money that they are borrowing to put in the social security trust fund if i had my way, we would put it to work rebuilding and redoing america with new sewer systems, water systems, environmental protection, rail. i mean, we have -- we can put hundreds of thousands of people to work on an ongoing basis by next year, and we'd have a stronger country, but in the short term, this is what we've got and we'll move forward with t. host: we have to leave it there. thanks so much with coming ing in. guest: sure. host: coming up, the cost of college education but first

a radio update from c-span radio. host: the number of people applying for benefits is up a second straight week, a sign that the economy is recovering at a slow pace and weekly applications for unemployment benefits rose by 6,000 to a seasonally adjusted 402,000. applications had been below 400,000 for three straight weeks. the head of the european central bank says the 17 countries that use the euro have to unify more closely like they did when creating the bank. in a speech earlier to the european parliament, they said a new fiscal compact is needed to force governments to play by more stringent rules and an update on iran following the attacks earlier this week on the british embassy there. word this morning that some european countries are arguing in favor of an oil embargo saying it would reduce money used by iran to develop nuclear weapons and

the french foreign minister says greece which relies on iranian oil objected to the move. a senate hearing on the situation nir ran begins at 10:00 eastern. you can hear it live on c-span radio. those are just some of your headlines when i look at whether a country does well or not, it is natural resources. do you believe the future can be different from the present and do you believe you can col your future? these are not universal. some places they have it and some places they don't. in the u.s. we have exaggerated of how much control we have, but it's good for us to have that. this sunday, your questions for david brooks. he will take your calls, e-mails an tweets on a variety of topics including his best selling books. on paradise drive and his latest, dad brooks, david

brooks on book tv on c-span 2. >> washington journal continues. host: we're joined now by michelle cooper, the president for the institute of higher education to discuss the rising cost of colleges, and i want to start with the fact that we have always heard that student loan debt is, quote, unquote, good debt to have, but there's some numbers out there that are chron certing now that student loan debt is expected to top $1 trillion before the end of the year, that it's been climbing evening as people cut back on credit card debts and housing debts. is loan debt still a good debt to have? >> when you compare it to other forms of consumer debt and the interest rates that student loan repayers have compared to credit card repayers, it is in comparison definitely good debt from that stand point but also it is good debt

because the debt represents an investment that one has made in himself or herself and individuals to grow in their own car rear path. the average debt is around $25,000 for college grads. host: if you're a recent college grad, give us a call and if you're a parent of a college grad, give us a call. if you're still paying student loans, also give us a call and for all others who want to get in on this discussion about the rising cost of college, give us a call.

michelle cooper, there is a story in "the new york times" that officials call for a emergency call on college costs, and it is now into the national spotlight. education secretary arne duncan urged higher education officials to think more creatively and with greater urgency about ways to contain cost and reduce student thought. three out of four students say it is too expensive to afford and 3/4's today believe they have more debt than they can manage. what is the obama administration trying to do? obviously arne duncan is trying to put a sound to the call here, but what they doing to low are the debt that the students carry as they leave college? >> the obama straying has done a number of things, one is to increase the amount of information out there around college costs and student loan debts by creating the

college affordability and transparency center and the website for that is www.collegecosts.ed.gov and you can go to that website and find information about the cost of an institution for several years so you can get multi-year tuition costs but also find out what is the rising cost that looks like for institutions and it actually shines a spotlight on those institutions that have been increasing its college costs at a rapid pace. what is the average cost of a public college versus a private college? guest: on average we have seen an increase for the 200 12 academic of 8.2% for public institutions and 4.5% for private four-year institutions and the increase has been about 8.7% for community colleges. there is an increase across

the board. host: what's driving these increases and what has been driving these increases? where does it begin? guest: well, there are a number of things driving it. certainly we are now facing an economy that is not where we would like it to be, so we have to deal with the realities of a weak economy that is steadily getting better but not where we would like it to be yet and as a result of that state budgets have been declining in their appropriations to colleges, state budgets and local appropriations so that has decreased as a result of a 2008 recession and 2009 recession, and what we have to remember is that we had a recession in 2011, 2011 as well, and state budget cuts occurred then, too but we never really recovered so what is happen something cost shifting where the cost is now shifting more to

students and families an less coming out of the pockets of state appropriators and along with that, we have seen a decline in endowments so there is a lot less public giving to institutions and they use that money for scholarships. host: what can the students do to push back against the rising costs? it's not lick you like you can't buy the product. they will continue to go to college. guest: students are more vocal. 84% of college students want congress to get involved in helping them get involved in college costs so we do need more calls from people like secretary arne duncan, from the congress as a whole to really step in and talk about what's happening and actually help colleges consider some very innovative strategies for restraining college costs. host: do you want to go over some of those possible strategies that congress can consider? >> well, certainly, you have more people looking at the college website at the

college of affordability and transparency center and shining the spotlight on institutions that not doing well and steadily raising their costs but also let's shine a spotlight on institutions trying to do interesting things to constrain costs and there are a number of institutions out there that have these different models that are worth considering. host: we're talking with michelle cooper, president of the institute for higher education policy. tell me what the institute is, who funds it and how long has it been around? guest: we have been around since 1993. our focus is on college access and success and we are funded by a number of foundations such as the bill and linda gates foundation, the ford foundation quite a few different foundations fund us to look at the

policies at colleges. i did work for the department of u.s. department of education with the advisory committee on financial student assistance but the issues today have been part of my repetoire for quite some time. host: i'm he helping the people try to understand this issue. james on twitter writes how much of college loans cover tuition, how much for books, how much for room and board, how are they being split up? guest: that's a great question and a very complicated formula that is different for each and every student and each and every institution. when you are sitting in a classroom and you are in there with various other students, everybody is paying a different price, even the price that we see that is advertised, when you consider an account for financial aid, which includes student loans and also includes grants and scholarships, everybody pays a different price, so it is really complicated to disentangle all of those factors but it is a great

question and i think if he is really interested he may consider sitting down with a financial aid officer at his institution to unpack that. host: let's go to cass cassandra who is paying off student loans from columbus, ohio. good morning. caller: hi. good morning. i started out with private student loans from gmac and have $42,000 in total and they are now up to $60,000 with interest. can we do something? just adjust the interest would be great. guest: the thing about private loans they're very different than when you are working with the federal government, so the federal government has a guaranteed student loan program and i strongly encourage individuals to use up the funds available through the federal government's program first before dealing with the private agencies, because when you're dealing

with the private loan agencies, you're dealing with bankers and they have a very different standard for how they will deal with your loans than the government, so they are governed by a different set of regulations so my best advice to you would be to go to the bank and sit down with a financial advisor at the bank and see if they can help you do something to account for that loan. host: let's go to sean from texas. good morning, sean. caller: good morning. i want to know with the current rate of unemployment if it continues what the rate of increase on the average student debt is going to be with the number of graduates unable to find work on a consistent basis. thank you. guest: the average unemployment rate stands at about 9%, and as we know, even though that's pretty high for college graduates, it's still much lower than for those who don't have a college education, so while

we should consider the unemployed college graduates, as the economy stabilizes they will likely find a job and be able to pay off that student loan debt but we do have to maintain an interest in that particular population because right now we have a sizable number of people who are recent grads who are looking for em employment but i do believe the tides are going to shift for them. host: one other report that your institute came out with recently was on the next bubble. we heard there is one $1 trillion in outstanding student loan debt and one of your reports, just 37% borrowers in a study of 1.8 million borrowers were able to make timely payments without postponing their payments or becoming delinquent in their debt. is there a concern about a

delinquency? guest: absolutely. we should be very concerned about this delinquency issue. when we did the report, we found 40% of borrowers are currently delinquent on student loans and that is a number that is likely to grow as we see some of these other issues with the economy continue to persist right now but we need to be concerned about delinquency and need to make sure that the default rate does not continue to increase because what hannons to drink went borrowers if they can't get control of the loans is they become defaulted borrowers an recent studies show that the default rates are going up and when students default on loans it has tremendous adverse effects on them, unlike other forms of student debt, student default loans can't be taken away through bankruptcy. host: martin is a parent of a college grad from ohio here. good morning.

caller: my daughter got through college, and we borrowed through private student loans and now the student loan companies will not work with us. in fact, they even told my wife one time that if she couldn't afford the loan, don't go to college. our income has now changed to the effect that i now have become disabled. my daughter cannot find a job anywhere in ohio and she has looked outside of ohio and can't find one there either and now most of the schools in ohio are doing away with music, which she has a music teacher and band teacher, so we're pretty much stuck, and now as parents we have to pay that loan and now we're going under. host: michelle. guest: that's an absolutely unfortunate situation. i cannot stress enough for

individuals to really focus on using the loans available through the u.s. federal government prior to dealing with the banks and other agencies that provide private student loans but that doesn't help the caller in this instance. as for you, i would suggest that given the change in your circumstances, that you may want to contact someone from the national consumer law center to see if they can help you determine some recourses of legal action that you may be able to take or some considerations that you can take with the banks to see what you can do for those loans, but i do want to stress all of the others out there who may be listening to this right now, if you are considering getting a student loan for your child, or the child is considering getting a student loan to help pay for the cost of college, it is really important to use the funds available through the u.s. federal government prior to looking into the private loan agencies. host: and what is the breakdown of that? of people actually making use of the federal

government versus some of the private agencies? is there a percentage breakdown? guest: most people do use the loans available through the u.s. department of education to subsidize loans as well as unsubsidized loans and also the loan opportunities that are available to parents through the parent flex loans. host: a few stats about college student loan debts 2/3's of seniors grad waited with student debt and the average debt is $25,000. full-time undergrad students borrowed an average of $4 $4,363 and total loans are expected to exceed $1 trillion this year again this year. let's go do john a recent college grad in california. good morning. are you there? caller: yes. hi. host: you have a question about student loans or the cost of colleges? caller: i have a question and a brief comment. host: go ahead. caller: so my question is,

i'm wonderinging if ms. cooper thinks that student loan debt is the next big sort of bubble and the costs of our occupations abroad is going to be $4 trillion. i have never understood on why we spend all this money on a totally bloated military budget while we can't help college students, college graduates, graduate students, whatever the case may be, with their debt. host: the question is about the bubble that we talked about earlier. guest: yes. do i think that student loans is the be next big bubble? i would say no. now, do i think that it is one of several bubbles? possibly. but i don't think it is the next big bubble but i think it is something that we

really need to get our eyes and a handle on. we really need to figure out how we're going to deal with some of these issues around student loans and as far as how the national government prioritizes spending, i think that's an issue that we should bring forth to congress and say that education is a priority. certainly we know from years of study that there are public and private benefits to a college education, and we may need to do a better job of highlighting for individuals what that public benefit is and how it benefits society as a whole and how it is a strength to our global economy, because in doing that, we can help others see that this is an area where we need to increase spending as a whole and help to alleviate some of the issues that students and families are facing when it comes to college costs. >> a question on twitter about possible waste of funds in the higher education system. the only way to lower college costs is to get the federal money out of the system. professors travel, teach two

classes maybe, big buildings. has your group studied wasted federal money in the higher education system? guest: certainly we have looked at a lot of issues on how college spending something being conducted across many colleges and universities. there is also an organization called the delta cost project that has been looking into this quite some -- quite a bit, and what we have been finding is that while there are some increases in tuition, the spending in institutions is not necessarily going to fund professors and things of that nature. a lot of the spending has been to support instructional support and student services which good things but the highest costs are let care benefits to employees that colleges have to take into account in their budget. while there may be some instances of people who being extremely wasteful, i think that for the most

part, most colleges and universities are really trying to figure out ways to cut spending while also increasing the quality of the services that they provide to their students. host: let's bring rita into the discussion from missouri. good morning, rita. caller: good morning, i have two children with student loans that are trapped. they were sold these loans the same way all students are sold their credit cards when they walk on campus. they are given all kinds of stuff, you know, in order to do it. my daughter has just lost her job. she has been out of school for six years. she pays $150 a month for her student loan repayment, $2 a of that goes to principal. this is slavery. my son just found a job four years after graduation and is making minimum wage and he is being garnished $450 a

month on a -- he's making $1,200 a month, $400 of that goes to taxes. host: were these federal loans or private loans? caller: both. i'm saying if you're going to believe what this beautiful lady is shining her light on, the money that is being spent for all of this stuff on healthcare, all of this stuff on doing research, all of this stuff on the colleges, what they're doing, we're not shining our light on our students and we are not shining our light on the people who are carrying this country on their back. host: that was rita, a parent of two college grads in missouri. guest: i think we should shine a light on students and certainly all the work that we do focuses primarily on the effects of these policies on students so we have centralized students, particularly those who are

like rita's children, and all of them work that we do, and as far as what your children can do, the ones that have the federal loans, there are some provisions that are in place that may be helpful to them. recently, president obama introduced an executive owner that allowed for 10% of discretionary spending to be taken into account when adjusting for a student loan repayment and income based repayment options that may be helpful to your son and your daughter, and there's also the public service loan forgiveness program that may be of use, and that may help alleviate some of the strain that they are feeling, but as far as the student loan industry, yes, we certainly need to be making sure that colleges are using this money wisely, that they're serving students as well and that we need to make sure as we select the colleges and union verts that our sons and daughter goes to, that we're helping them to make

wise decisions and that's why i would stress to look at the transparency center that the u.s. department of education has recently introduced because it gives the information about the cost of these institutions and how fast those tuitions are increasing and they can help really save many families from a lot of stress and struggle later on as we think about some of these things on the front end, because it's true. we can't always depend on what they tell us so we need to do extra legwork on our own to make sure we're making the best decisions possible for our future. host: for students out there trying to make a decision about what to major in, some statistics from the georgetown university center on education in the workforce about the highest and lowest median earnings for different degrees. the top ten majors, petroleum engineers top out at $120,000 after they graduate. pharmacy, pharmaceutical sciences and administration, $105,000. math matics and computer

sciences get into the $98,000 range and on down. some of the lowest medium earnings are counseling and psychology, just $29,000 as the median earning. early childhood education, $36,000. theology and religious vocations, $38,000 and so on down the line. if you want to see that report, that's from the georgetown university's center on education and the workforce. michelle, i want to talk about the recent article from the associated press talked about the idea of possibly too little debt, students possibly graduating with too little debt. they featured a student at university of california berkeley and eating canned foods to do it to take out no college debt and he's taking 21 credits to get through school quicker. would you recommend this as trying not to take out any college loans at all to avoid this problem?

guest: well, probably not. i think that that works for that student maybe that's a good idea for him but we don't want a generation of young people eating canned food just to make it. that's not a good idea. that's not good public policy at all. i think what we really need to do is figure out a way to make sure that we can lower tuition costs and while some universities have been doing things, certainly as the example of barea college, which doesn't offer -- doesn't have students pay any tuition at all. they work instead. there are other models where students come out debt free at lead institutions in flagship institutions like the university of colorado, the university of oregon, where they have helped to make college more affordable for their lowest income students and other institutions are then using what is calmed ak sellated models where -- what is called accelerated models using on-line learning to

reduce the costs and fast pace the learning. these are all great ideas and we need more. what i am concerned about with some of those ideas is they are small short-term fixes and they are just like putting 5 patch on a leaky roof and we really need to bring together institutional leaders to think really hard about what reforms in college costs an tuition would look like. host: your group did a study that showed taking out loans, statistically gives students a better chance of graduating. the a.p. article notes that federal data analyzed by the institute for higher education policy in 2008 shows 86% of students who apply are able to attend school 100% of the time compared to 86% who have to work, and what happens is that the a student can use a student loan to help capture

a small cost of learning then it is better than working 20, 40, 50 hours a week because when you work all those hours it lessens your ability to focus on your studies. we do advocate borrowing but only at a responsible amount in which the students can really pay back in a reasonable amount of time. we don't advocate borrowing these high amounts of money and don't advocate that colleges charge colleges high amounts of money either. host: let's go to patrick who is paying off his loans, in atlantic city, new jersey. caller: hi. thank you very much for taking my call. i have two student loans and owe around $14,000 which is relatively modest. i'm still making payments. i chose to go in the culinary direction and i pursue add field in culinary arts. that said, there are a few issues that have been hurting that particular field, you know, one would be legislation on, you know, government's position on immigration reform that

would definitely help our position and another issue would also be taking a look into the collapse of citibank who bought out my student loans, and another thing is that i'm running late and now half of the money is going from bank to bank to bank being moved around. guest: we need to reinforce the need for the private student loan industry. it's hurtel many students in a lot of different respects and we need to make sure that a lot of people have the right information to know how to exhaust the federal sources of student aid first before going to

the private loan industry, because as you can tell, most of the callers have really been expressing a lot of frustration about private loans that they have that are dealing with the banks and other agencies that are not associated with the federal government, not the and that's real concern and something we have to address sooner than later. >> again, your one or two top suggestions for reform that either the federal government or the states can take up on this? >> well, certainly i think the federal government has to do more to make sure that college is restraining college costs and that we are making sure that they are using the money that they have responsibly and wisely and that they are taking proactive steps to make sure that they are really addressing the broader issues around college costs and spending. host: can the government step into some of these private institutions? guest: well, they can't step in but they can be a strong advocate and use the bully pulpit from the federal government to stress that things need to change and

ask for reforms. there is a limitation as to what the federal government can really do when it comes to institutions but when it comes to the private loans, i really think there are things that we need to address. that would probably help student loan borrowers in a major way. we need to figure out whether or not there needs to be additionalling regulations or whether there should be ways that we help students avoid even going down that path first, because many of these callers have gone down that path first, and have not used the resources available from the federal government and that's really causing a lot of stress. host: you studied these colleges, what are some of the colleges that are doing the right thing that are restraining their costs in the way that you would like to see? can you give us specific examels? >> guest: sure, barea college in kentucky. they is to work at least ten or more hours on the campus to help defray the costs of their tuition. there is the university of oregon, the university of colorado. many of the elite institutions that help

students go through college debt free. they package them so they will graduate with no loans at all. they're the accelerated learning options that you can find like at places at the university of washington, university of wis with us. there are a number of things going on out there and i'm happy to say that they are really looking at how it is happening and how we implement reforms. host: one of the big universities has violated some ones that doing the right list. guest: you can find that list by look at the center at the department of education's website. you can go on that list and find out who is increasing their tuition at a very high rate and to me, i think it's

worthy of asking those institutions what are you doing, and they are required if they increase tuitions at a high rate over a certain number of years to submit a letter to the u.s. department of education to explain why those costs continue to go up, but as consumers we can ask those questions, too. #

guest: and institutions compete for the profiles. those are usually the elite institutions and they don't represent the vast majority of institutions that are out there in this country that serve the vast majority of students. but we do need to be aware that, yes, there are some discounting that goes on at college campuses across this country where they compete for the best students because it helps their profile and increases their rankings. host: since we are talking about government money, is there anything the government is doing to stop this competition? is it illegal? guest: i'm not the one to answer that question. i do think it's a question worth asking. and to the point of whether or not the government can do something, i think it's worth bringing to their attention, but we do have to recognize that

middle and upper income families are the one that is we are really talking about here and they are vocal and they can advocate in a very strong way that many lower income families can't do for themselves. host: back to the phones, josha -- joshua a recent college grad from houston, texas. good morning. joshua, are you there? caller: yes. host: turn down the tv a little bit. caller: that's what i was doing. i apologize. host: go ahead. caller: ok. i have two questions and also i'm one person. i need to bring this up to the front because it's never been brought to the front. my first question is, why is it that -- i have paid off both my student loans. one was federally financed and i had one also privately financed. one was being on time loan you would graduate in that four years you would not have to pay that loan.

now, can i not graduate in four years. i went to a larger university down here in texas. which the curriculum i was studying for auto body collision, they took that program away. what i can say large universities and lenders are shutting away from financing people who want to advance themselves technically. and agriculturally. what i can say, what i can say is i paid off both those loans and i have sisters, i have brothers, i have friends that have masters and have doctorates are in hundreds and thousands of dollars in debt and do not even have yet the jobs that even generate half of what they owe. host: how much did you owe when you graduated? caller: i owed $20,000. i have paid both those lenders off. and my credit has dropped because of that. i have a weaker credit score because of that. and what i can tell you is, even

though that's happened to me, i have also tried to go far. i just recently opened up my own business because i went to auto body collision school. now i have a trade which i do welding, fabrication, and customization cars. host: couple comments there from joshua. did the university discriminate against some of these courses like josh was talking about? guest: i'm not aware of that. i'm not saying it doesn't happen. it's not something that i'm aware of at all. host: response to some of the other concerns he brought up and how he went about paying his debt? guest: joshua was able to pay off everything and he's living a good life now. what i wasn't clear about was why his loan rating would have gone down. his credit rating would have gone down as a result of paying off debt. usually it goes in the other direction. that might be something he wants to look into with the credit rating agencies. as far as the other family members he discussed, certainly they may need to talk to their lenders and see what they can do to help alleviate some of the

stress of borrowing. host: let's go to elizabeth from new york, new york. good morning, elizabeth. caller: good morning. thank you. i just have a comment to make about these private insurance -- lending agencies. four, five years ago the bush administration cut back on pell grants and they actually encouraged these loan companies to take over student loans. at that time governor andrew cuomo, he was the attorney general, then, he started investigation into these private loan companies who were collaborating with some college administrators, probably getting kick backs, in order to steer the kids into taking loans with these high interest loan agencies. do you know anything about this? it was a big scandal at the time. guest: i'm very aware of it. i want to make a distinction between the private agencies. there are private agencies that are banks which is what i have

been spending most my time this morning talking about. the banking industry that operates and offers private loans. what you are talking about is what was called an fsel program, the family federal education loan program. that program actually no longer exists. when the obama administration came into being, they actually discontinued that program. so those loans are no longer being originated by the ffel program. and now all new loans are being originated through the u.s. federal government. except for those individuals who go seek private loans through the banking industry. host: five minutes left with michelle cooper from the institute of higher education policy. let's go to edward, a parent from el paso, texas. good morning. caller: good morning, michelle. this is edward. it's common knowledge that we use 10% of our brain for learning and 90% of that is what we learn through reading using our vision and 10% through our other senses.

make it a requirement that before starting school at any level of education that they have their eyes tested so the answer to the question that students start out in debt, the answer is no. it's too easy for student loans to be forgiven. host: good suggestion on edward on how to go about maybe helping out some these students in a different way. let's go to laguna hills, california. thomas, another parent. good morning. caller: good morning. very good show. and she's a gifted person with all her answers. i have something that i think everybody should look at. i think 40-hour workweek is something like a horse and carriage. i think they should away with it and consider a 30-hour workweek. nurses work three 12 hours. and firemen go in there and sleep. instead of one fireman working, if you take 24 hours, divide it by four, you could put four

people to work. host: excuse me. students should be able to work? caller: if you put everybody to work, the students will not have a problem paying their loans. host: ok. michelle cooper? guest: what research has shown is is when students are working more than 20 hours per week, their focus on their studies decrease and that actually prolongs the time it takes for them to graduate. so one of the reasons for advocating a reasonable amount of student loan debt is to help accelerate the time that students actually spend in college. we do suggest that if students can get a reasonable amount of debt through the u.s. department of education's loan program, that they are more likely to finish college faster and then go into the job market with strong careers that will help them repay their loan options. we wouldn't advocate for students to go to college full-time and work full-time. that's not a good formula. host: monica on twitter refers to a point that joshua was

bringing up. she asks, why is financing for trade classes harder and more expensive than traditional degree universities? guest: i think what monica want to do is look at the particular trade classes that she is considering and compare it to other institutions in her area more carefully to see whether there is a difference between the sticker price and the actual cost. i'm not family with that national trend but there might be something going on in her local community that she should investigate more carefully. host: let's try to get in one more call. linda a parent from clinton, tennessee. good morning. caller: yes. the lady that called and stayed student loans are a form of slavery. she had it exactly right. i get mailing of catalogs for college. i work for a professor. these kids don't need to be taking out loans. i have a daughter in school. she applied for a pell grant. they wanted her to take a student loan. i think we food to look at where