photographs riding with the northern alliance up in northern afghanistan against the taliban and i thought that looks like oss. so i thought maybe there's a story here. >> your father lived what years? >> he lived 1920 to 1996 born as an army brat never really lived in the same place. i think very formative years in china which was really just before the invasion. so he had a tate for the orient. he ts kind of void you find on the edge of the ground saluting and watching solders go by. >> i wrote down a quote.

he was quiet. he had opinion bus he wasn't pushing them on you. and his favorite expression when we would argue, and we would argue about the war and just about everything but especially the vietnam war. if you get your points across and he would get his and he knew a bit more about it than i did. he would say fair enough, as if well i respect your opinion just get my opinion a shot as well. and i always remember that about him. mother believe it or not his father traded with sitting bull. so he grew up in army bases and went to princeton at the age of 16. he never looked back. he wanted to be in the spanish civil war. and then he went into occupied

norway. then he went to being a lawyer in new york and he once told me american offered me a job in their general counsel office and he looked at me i've got nodsing against tin cans but i can't see spending my life like that so he join joined the c.i.a. and went to italy where he worked on influencing the elections and then on to vietnam and that begins another story. when i first met you today, the first thing was you look just like your dad. do you get that often? >> i do. i can't help it, i guess. but you know, he was a creator of washington as well as being from other places. he loved the give and take of d.c. and you look around the world these days and they're so contentious. but i still feel washington is

a place where people talk to each other and you can have donald rumsfeld and patrick lay hi in the same room once in a while. and i think he wanted to li in that world where we could maybe disagree but come up with the best solutions to today's problems. >> we found some video in our archive of your father back in 1989 talking to a group of interns at the washington center here. and we use this before we show some of your documentary, just to establish what he looked like and what he sounded like. >> sure. >> and bobby kennedy lived near by and he drove by the sign one day and he said this is the silliest thing i've ever seen. here's a seerk rhett intelligence agency with a great -- secret sign. for god sake at least take the sign down. and we took the sign down. he did have quite a lot of influence. and for 15 years we pretend that had that big building wasn't there. even though every pilot on his

way out of national airport used it as a checkpoint. turn left at c.i.a. because it was so obvious. >> what did you see there? >> what i see there is his brutal hons city. he's not afraid. he's not afraid of you physically certainly. he's just not afraid of the american public. he's afraid of the enemy in terms of what they can inflict upon us but he's not afraid of us. patrick lay hi, interviewed him for the film and he said, what are we afraid of? meaning what are we americans afraid of in terms of setting policy? if we have a drone policy or if we have a policy of being an 18 to 10820 countries now that we don't talk about, then i don't want to reveal operational details but let's talk about that policy. let's see what we can and cannot do, what we should and shouldn't do. and as lay hi said if you don't like the policy then don't pass it and live with the consequences. but i think he did not fear us. >> what was the phoenix program

that was either in charge of or involved in in vietnam? >> probably the most vaverble thing he was called back in 1968 to vietnam by president johnson at the time and i remember my sister brought him a sable russian fur had and he had been assigned to be the new chief. about the biggest secret assignment and he was excited and but then lyndon johnson called and said we want you to go to vietnam and run this program, a little bit of what's going on in afghanistan and what went on in anbar province in iraq which was secure a part of the town like in the movie general mcmaster now head of intelligence for afghanistan. if you go into a hot cell and secure at least one section of the town, make it liveable for the people there and then build out through there. and then once people can go to work and raise their children and buy their rice and

whatever, then secure some stability for the place and then start using your intelligence. and that's really what the phoenix program, the overall program was pass if iication. get with the villagers. it's not between us and the guy get and phoenix was the tip of the spear. that was where the villagers helped identify who the veetcong were and who the north vietnam were and they would capture interrogate and hopefully turn them. it would be my dad with the drones now. he would say it's fine to kill bin laden or maybe a couple other higher ups. but you don't want to be killing the mid level guys. you want to interrogate them and flip them. get them to work for us. >> the viet cong were south vietnamees who were communist and involved in fighting the government. how long was he involved in the

phoenix program? and when it blow up in a controversy? >> by 68 the war had gone badly for americans, and general abrams came in and said we've got a one war philosophy now. we're going to conduct still offensive operations but we're going to make this a people's war. and the phoenix program the tip of the spear there's some abuses. you and i go out and say this guy in fairfax we're here, he's my cousin and i think he's hanging out with the taliban and we ought to capture him and interrogate. are you just settling a grudge? is he really taliban or not? so it's difficult to corroborate the evidence. so he suffered for that because 29,000 viet cong sympathizers were killed in the program. that's a lot of people. and but the north vietnamees general said after the war, it

hurt us. because it was destroying their infrastructure. i think by then america was fed up with the war and they saw these horrific pictures of people being beat up and tortored. bodies laid out in mass graves and thought this is horrific. why are we there? so the controversy began shortly after he came back to the united states and was appointed by nixon to be part of the c.i.a. >> what were his politics? >> it's funny you say what were his politics. i would say he was the fdr liberal. he was jfk kind of incarn at. he was extremely active in world war ii. he drank the milk of fdr. he believed in -- he was a democratic activist, labor lawyer truly. conducting sort of activist raleas and supporting downtroden workers and i think going into the c.i.a. i think a lot of people were from yale

and especially all the ivy leaguers they were liberal. the tricky part comes at the end of the 60s when it all starts to go sour and i think he stayed being liberal kind of under the covers and then emerged when you see him in these clips where he's very open and very willing to engage with the public and in a sense no longer the clan destined officer. >> let's dip into your documentary. how long is it? >> the film is 104 minutes long and 35 mil meter playing in local theaters and will be out nationwide in 35 cities shortly. so 104 minutes. >> and when did you start actually working on it? >> well, i was inspired by that 9/11 story but i think i really started working about 2005. so it's long, two years of edditting with my editor in new york, the daughter of the famous charles gugen hime was my producer along with david johnson in l.a.

extraordinary men. and so it's really a trip down not just memory lane but american foreign policy from world war ii onward. >> and how long have you been doing documentaries? >> since the 70s. >> is that -- >> that's my profession. i couldn't just come out of the box and make this movie. >> i had to be very careful what i said and how i said it in terms of accuracy. i'm dealing with some of the most important issues that americans ever faced so i did a lot of homework. >> here's your mother talking in the documentary. >> sometimes it was difficult to ascertain just who we were and where we were going at a certain point and so on. one evening, we went to the theater and thought i recognized a couple whom we had dined with the night before and i started to go over and say,

oh, how are you? wasn't that pleasant last evening? and my husband took me aside and said quiet, quiet, we don't -- we don't know these people. we don't know these people. well, we did know these people. there were times when really i didn't know what role we were playing, who are we tonight? >> we would go somewhere, family trip on the weekend, pick nick basket in the back and he would meet somebody, have a conversation. deliver something. he and my mother and the family left town, drove up north and went and passed a radio to somebody. so we had a picnic. that wasn't a lie. sometime later one of my dad's friends said you know your

mother has a lot to do with your father's success. they were a great team. >> the family wasn't always let into this world of his. beginning of course with his c.i.a. code of need to know. he never had to really tell me anything. i suppose that's the c.i.a. mode us operandi. but even so i remember one c.i.a. wife of a high-ranking officer say my husband tells me everything. well, i was a little jell us but i thought no, it couldn't be. they don't tell us everything. they tell us very little, if anything. >> why did mom agree to do this? >> well, it's interesting, when i first set out doing these interviews i thought, well, i'll obviously call up my dad's

old friends. and that got me about three or four interviews. i did 85 in total. 35 were in the film. and i started thinking well i had better talk to people like james sless i thinker, hopefully donald rumsfeld. generals, admirals. how am i going to do that? >> and james had been c.i.a. director. >> before my father actually. >> and the national security advisor. >> exactly. >> so with people of that ilk you can call them up and say hi. but they're not going to agree to an interview. so i took about two days to write each of those e-mails. and then almost as an afterthought i thought i'll interview my mother. and then the whole movie changed because she brought the human element. she brought the underneath. what are we doing? what is she doing? she's keeping him to a high moral standard. she referred to the c.i.a. you've misically as catholics

in action. just like in the f.b.i., especially in the early years. a lotsdz of catholics because they have a moral compass and they certainly operate from a moral point of view. or at least you hope they do. religion, morality is part of their mindset and it was part of mine, too. i went to gong zaga here in town. and they made you think, we were taken as boys to the march on washington, the tent city. and the priest would say what do you think? is this legal? should they be here without a permit? is there a greater cause at work here? what do you boys think? what do you 14-year-olds think? that's about the best education i ever got. but to your point, my mother lived the life. she was his partner. she may not have known very many secrets or any at all but she supported the member of the

club. she was not a member but she supported the membership. just like we all did. i remember once i had been in indonesia and i said i met mr. x, fan fantastic guy. says wonderful things about you, too. >> he said, oh, never repeat his name again. so what i took by that is that well he's obviously operating in deep cover. my little part of the game and part of my job is to support my dad ft. just don't mention his name. and people would come to the house sometimes and i would think back, why is that mon senior here? who was that general? and then you see that general on the front page. well, who was that bicyclist that would come by once in a while and he seemed to exchange notes with and sent him on the way with a little pact of money? is that just charity? so it was always something else going on. my theme in life, what i grew -- everybody has kind of a touch stone and mine was things are not what they seem.

>> how much of the a relationship did you have with the c.i.a. in this project? >> i was treated like a normal citizen. i called up to ask for different biographies or if they had any materials on footage or any archival material or any unclassified material on my father and they eventually gave me a book that they had redacted. so i looked at that and so no official cooperation at all. and i preferred that. it's arm's length. >> here you are in the documentary talking about your father. >> he was in pretty good shape. 6:00 in the morning, canadian air force exercises, push ups, jumping jacks, legs going up and down. he called me sport when he kind of liked me. when he was annoyed at you, you were friend. listen, friend. if you had really done something badly, he would get the belt out. he didn't like lying.

certainly believed in corporal punishment. among friends he could be relaxed. well, frankly he didn't have any friends. he had people he worked with. he didn't have a lot of romantic ideas about spying. he saw it for what it was. dirty business. >> how tall was he? >> he was my height. 5-8. when he was a major parachuting into norway, he was 156 pounds. he was all heart. he was all heart. >> how catholic was he? >> he was very catholic growing up. i would say after he leaves the c.i.a., things take another turn. but as you can see from that clip, i say some sort of provocative thing bus i say he

didn't have any friends. he was obviously friendly with the people in the agency but it was a club. and there's not a lot of room for the outsider, the insurance salesman to sort of be part of this click. they like to talk to each other. they're all cleared. i mean, there's 150 to 20 o 0,000 people in washington right now who have a top secret security clearance. i'm sure they mingle at the bridge club or the soccer game with other people. but when push comes to shove, they're in a team and they're out to win. and i think it's quite compartmentalized and that's what my father's life was like. >> why would we not suspect that you're a member of the c.i.a.? >> well, i don't think so. why would i be out making movies? >> i mean, it could a be all part of the disinformation or information of the c.i.a. >> that would be wild.

that's like when oliver stone came to visit my father and was accusing him of being part of the plot to kill jfk. and my father was a very patient person but i think he really ended up throwing oliver stone out of the house. he can be really a bore. in the end it makes you think there's only two people who weren't involved in the jfk assassination. and your family had five kids. where are they all and what's their age group? >> my older sister died but my others are here in washington. >> and what do they do? any in the c.i.a.? >> no. little mix of government business. >> where do you fit in the five? >> smack in the middle. i had an older brother, younger brother, older sister, younger sister.

>> when did you know you were going to be a document taryn? >> i was going to be a dip lo mat or art dealer. never c.i.a. my father had the top job. how could i ever be a clan destine officer? and his father had been a writer. so i started writing. and then i made a movie about an artist named gene davis who was here in washington and painted stripe paintings and people liked it and i kept going. maybe i should have done something else but kind of kept going. i liked having a point of view. >> how many documentaries have you done? >> more than 35 or 40. a lot of profiles so it goes back to that question. never profile my father earlier. but when the subject is right there in front of you it's a little harder. i did a film on the artist frans kline. and this might have triggered a long time ago. he was an abstract expressionist painter in the village in the 19 50s.

and when i did the film, everybody had a different thing to say about him. that he was kind of a bastrd, abandoned his wife. somebody else, he was the most charming person, wonderful, could have a drink with him any time of the day. and in a way, i saw different aspects of my father. so that's why the movie is called the man nobody knew. >> how many total years did he work with the c.i.a.? >> i would say he worked for the c.i.a. from say 1950 to 1976. >> and how long was he the director and what years? >> he was the director of c.i.a. from 1973 to 1976. he came in after sless i thinker who was only there 15 weeks and then he was flipped around with that saturday night massacre where he went to defense and my father stayed in the c.i.a.

and was appointed by nixon. when nixon fell, ford kept him on for a short time but the cloud around ford, rumsfeld, also, and cheney, kissinger, sco croft, i think they just thought that my father was giving away too many of the secrets of the c.i.a. which he didn't need to do at that time. >> one of the remaining controversial issues is a man named diem. going to show a clip in a moment. but what roll did he play in your father's life? >> diem, president of south vietnam in the 50s and early 60s and his brother were catholic. they both controlled the country very strongly. parallels to jfr and rfk. and my father was tasked as the head to be in constant contact

with the control of the special forces who was the fixer and the strong man in the relationship with his brother. and things started to unravel because we started with a pass if iication program earlier. counter insurgency and it seemed to be working. bup then the american military got impatient with special forces being used in an advisory role and building villages. they wanted them to find fix and kill the enemy. jim got in hot water. he was a catholic in a buddhist country and he and especially his brother went after the buddhists. then a buddhist set himself on fire and killed himself. and his wife didn't help out saying that the buddhists were barbecuing their monkss. so support for the government was falling. but my father was a believer in

the government. at least it was stability over chaos. but then there was the coup. insghate part by americans and certainly hand capped the ambassador out there and then things really unraveled. it was a succession of generals in charge and didn't have the confidence of the veems people. >> diem was president of south vietnam what years? >> all the way through the 50s and 54 all the through 1963 when he was killed in the coup. >> so kennedy was killed. >> john f. kennedy died only three weeks after the assassination of president diem. >> here is the clip of your mother and tim winer of the "new york times" talking. >> november 63, i was at mass that morning. and your father came into the church, little flower in

bethesda, and said they've been found murdered. which was a shock. a terrible shock. bill stayed for that mass and we prayed fervently for president diem and his brother. what was so difficult about it was that in hindsight, immediate hindsight we have to -- we americans have to realize that we bore some share in this this tragedy. not personally but somehow things went wrong somehow. >> this was an extraordinary moment of presidential carelessness and the result was

a president and his brother with their hands tied behind their back and bullets in their head, and a shatored illusion, which is that we were building a democracy in vietnam. it was only three weeks later that john kennedy was killed. lyndon johnson said when he found out what the role of the united states was, we just got a bunch of thugs and killed them. the u.s. responsibility for diem's death was absolutely clear. and once that was done it became not the south veems war it was our war. and it was ours from then on. >> who was the last gentleman? >> the last gentleman is hugh to har.

extraordinary individual. really cut out of the same cloth as my father. tremendously loyal, diligent, extraordinarily intelligent. extremely well connected. just the judgment and the sense of history imagine cherry picking the very best in america to study their history and speak the language and send them in there. and they will get to know the generals, they will get to know the police. one of my dad's friends robert meyers former deputy chief of the far east division and publisher of the new republic and many other things in washington one time told me i said, well, what about the dip lo mats? don't they do a lot? and he said they aren't worth anything. the only people you really need to talk to and want to talk to are the military and the police. gives you an idea of what kind of real politic, harsh world

we're talking about. >> do we know today who ordered the assassination of the diem brothers? >> apparently it was a kabul of general big men and a couple of his cohorts. and it's hard to say exactly how that went down. there was a plan to spirit diem out of the country, get them off to some safe haven. but things went badly. and they were killed in a personnel carrier outside. how far can you go up the chain of american government where there was support for this? >> certainly lodge want it had change and he was hell-bent on effecting a change in that government. touf see the film but there's kind of a tough exchange between john f. kennedy, robert kennedy, mcin a narea, my father, bundy, dusk, rusk, the

whole corps sort of mulling over a coup. and should it happen and should it not. and to whose advantage. toying with the world. >> in that group, lodge was the running meat of richer nixon in 60. >> exactly. >> you had george bundy who was a republican from harvard. you had -- >> he was a big favorite of j.f.k. >> national security council. . and you had robert mcin a marea who is also supposedly a republican. but here they are sitting around. and i remember from the film that bobby kennedy was against the assassination. >> he was against a botched coup. he didn't want a coup to happen and unravel. and diem be taken out and die and what options do we have. he early says it's not like a coup in south america in iraq or something like that that we

could control. he thought the whole thing can go south. you would think they would be against a coup. but there were conflicting forces at work here. and i think lodge as you said having been the vice presidential running mate of nixon he was a very powerful man in his own right and i think he took the job of ambassador out to set things right and do things right. >> how long had he been the -- >> as they ruefully note he had only been there once, maybe. once, as a reporter on a trip. >> whose idea was it to make him ambassador to south vietnam from the united states? >> it was john f. kennedy's idea to have him be the ambassador to provide cover on the republican side on clim so it was a shared war. it wasn't going to be a democratic war. >> what's your opinion? would john f. kennedy have goten out of vietnam if he had

not been assassinated? >> strangely enough, my father thought that r.f.k. in 68, even though he was on the campaign saying we're going to get out of vietnam, it's immoral, he thought robert kennedy is somebody he could work with that would have gotten out of vietnam more gradly. i think he thought john f. kennedy would never have approved that many troops and he would have fought more the secret war, kind of the war we're fighting in afghanistan now. >> back to your documentary a minute and a half on your father's assignment to vietnam and the role that your deceased sistplared in all that. >> he had a lengthy assignment. he came back periodically. we would go to vermont, try to carry on life as we would know it and he was doing, he was called to serve and he did it.

he did it capeably. >> when it comes to long separations, my mother was at loose ends. she lost the center out of her life. it was very hard for her. a year or so into his being there, my sister katherine became ill. she had epilepsy since she was a child. terrible seizures. she developed anorexia anywhere vosea. it was awful. >> my mother took on the suffering of my sister. she would make it go away for my father. it couldn't be any other way. everything for the mission.

i remember i looked over at her one evening, and she was writing him a letter i think in vietnam. i saw that she was a woman not just my mother. she was lonely. she hadn't signed up for this. but she did it. >> how well did you know your sister? >> quite well. she was only two years older than i was. she was not as sosheable than i was and she had epilepsy from an early age. so she was different. she was kind of the odd duck as they used to say. but very bright. spoke four languages. went and lived in israel. extraordinary. and she had to come home because they found out she had epilepsy and they said we can't care for you out here. she said the medication was fine. in a lot of ways she was the

fiercest of all the siblings. she was a lot like my dad. a red head, fearless, spoke all those ludges intensely curious about the world. a fighter. >> what year did she die? >> she died in 73. >> if you see the documentary it played a major role in their lives. how did you see it as one of her siblings? >> well, it's a hard thing to say but i think once she was dead it was over and she was forgotten. i think my father's way of dealing with the world, you can imagine your daughter dies at the same time as you're going before hearings in the senate for your approval, your confirmation as c.i.a. director and they're grueling you about what they're calling an assassination program in which you personally have set the policy, the architect of a program that has killed more

than 29,000 vietnamees be that they are viet cong or sympathizers. it's a tough character. >> did the committee or the public know that he was losing a daughter during that time? >> i don't think so. and they -- a few of the people in the white house may have known but my father wasn't anyone to ever seek kind of a pass or seek your sympathy for his predicament. >> more of -- >> i can tell you that once an old washingtonen stan who was managing director of my father's best man in his wedding one time told me, karl, your dad could be sitting across from you just like you are now with you, and he could be talking about qaddhafi or the weather, somebody could be sawing off his right arm and he

wouldn't so much as flinch. >> more on your mom's anguish from the documentary. >> people who turn to me and say, your dad was a murderer. my immediate reaction used to be you don't know what you're talking about. and then i would find myself thinking, was he? who was he really? >> it's a very difficult field really, those who served have loyalty to the agency itself but certainly must have inner loyalties in their code of behavior, which they would not violate. and one has to take on faith and trust that the right thing

is being done and perhaps for the greater good. it's very difficult i find. >> where did you do these interviews with your mother and how many days did you spend with that project? >> i did interviews with my mother twice on camera in a studio like this, very comfortable, with camera man gary steel who was one of my oldest friends. so it was a little bit like family. she's kind of like barbara stan wick with a an ivy league education. so she kind of like being interviewed. >> what year did you do those? >> a few years ago and i did audio interviews. i went to her apartment and we

would just talk. mother and a son, about things, about the life and her life and a lot came out of that. and i like the starkness of being in a studio where you can concentrate your thoughts like this studio that you have. and it enables you, if you are a good questioner like you are, to focus your attention and keep driving and getting at those little nuggets that maybe will spill out. because remember, you're dealing with somebody -- at least my father -- and my mother in some ways as well, these are hard nuts to crack. it's like peeling an onion. you get to one layor, it looks like another one. another one translucent. i'm not learning a thing. what's that little blemish? is that leading me somewhere? practiced in the art of deception. i wouldn't say my mother was but certainly my father. >> what year did your father die? >> he died in 1996. and is mom still alive?

>> oh, yeah. but he had remarried. >> i know. but now is she still alive? >> absolutely. and she's doing fine. she came to the opening show in washington last friday. >> this is probably gratuitous but your mom never looked better than she does in that film. she looks better with age. >> i've told her that and people have come up to me in theaters and i do q and as and anybody who is watching this would love to come to the theater on the opening weekend because i'm usually there whatever city and people grab me and say my god, your mother is extraordinary. she looks more beautiful now than she did in her younger years. and i think it's just her spirit. she's kind of that spirit world war ii generation. i'll give you a little insight. i didn't put it in the film but while i interviewed her, we were talking about iraq and afghanistan. and she said where's my sacrifice? what am i being asked to do? where is my part in this war? if we're at war, give me

something to do and maybe i should ration or maybe i should go visit the v.a. hospital or wrap bandages. i'm part of this. where is my sacrifice? >> quick clip. only 30 seconds. ask you why you talked to him. >> i did learn from people inside the agency that there had been these documents called family jewels. and i had your father's phone number and i called him. he did see me and he didn't lie to me. what he did was if i said there was at least 120 cases of wire breaking of wiretapping of america citizens contrary to the law, in america, he said my number is only 63. it was a question of numbers. he did not back away from the question of wrong doing. and so that's one hell of a story. >> he says a little more than what you might even imagine by what he just said.

if you trace back what he said, he said he was pivotal to the publishing of that story. so my father was the source in some ways for that story. >> the leaker. >> the leaker at the top. now, you might say my god, why would he do that? i think my father was doing what he had said he was going to do. is that he was going to keep the good secrets and let out the bad secrets. there had been wrong doing. 697 ip stances of assassination plots, experiments on human guinea pigs, torture of suspected double agents on american soil. these were not opening -- opening mail. this is not legal in america. so these are thing that is needed to be revealed as past indiscretions and wrong doing and illegal acts from the eisenhower administration onward. but he wasn't going to reveal the names of agents and he

wasn't going to reveal perhaps other operational details or histories that probably would have really not served us well. >> this goes back to what you said about jim baker on 9/11 saying that crole by was responsible. >> people to this day think that the c.i.a. has never recovered from my father spilling the beans because it set up a culture of leaking of the congress being overly zealous in its attentions to what the c.i.a. is up to. robert gates i interviewed as well and the c.i.a. doesn't like being on the front page. they should be not in the newspaper at all. not referred to. they're a secret organization, remember. >> gates is not in this documentary though. remember? you said you did 85 interviews. 35 are in it. what are you doing with all the other material? >> all the other material, which is quite extraordinary is going to come out as part of the expanded dvd and other

followup program that we may do. so keep tuned. but gates for instance is an extraordinary person because he has hue millty, he has deep understanding, and he also told me that he had the support of a very strong president during his contentious hearings, which were about iran contra where my father had little or no support from what woodward calls in the film, ford, the accidental president. >> when is the dvd coming out? >> probably next summer. >> i must say that i'm going to show a clip next. this was a surprise to me when i watched the documentary. i don't know where i missed this. let's run it and you can tell us about it. >> ok. >> i'm not sure he ever loved anyone and i never heard him say anything heartfelt. by the time i turned 30, i came to understand the man that nobody knew. or at least i thought i did. >> when he said i want a

divorce, i was really knocked over. really surprised and shocked. i said, but we're catholic, we don't believe in divorce. so there goes the catholicism. i don't know. he was a dedicated public servant. who gave his best to his work and i think we had a good family life as long as it lasted. and i must say he was -- i guess i would say he was a complicated person who maybe i didn't know as well as i would

hope to think i did. >> it really did stop me dead because i didn't know. but i wondered why in the world would she have cooperated with you? up to that point it's all sympathetic. she is an honest person and she has courage and she has character. and i think she is not afraid to face the truth. and my father changed in my opinion after he was thrown out of the agency. i think if you watch the film closely and study him, he's a sold junior. he took on the toughest, dirtiest assignments given to him by the presidents from eisenhower onward. but when it came time for the president, ford in this case to ask him to lie and mislead congress, he couldn't do it. where is the authority? moral or otherwise? as woodward says in the film. he side with the constitution. it was his obligation, remember

being that liberal democratic lawyer from new york, law review, columbia, he knows the law. there's a very big law out there article 1, congress has the authority. and he can't speak falsely to congress or to the american people. >> he was fired in 1976 by gerald ford. >> right. >> was he given a reason by the president? >> no. just going to 32 times up to testify to capitol hill in one year, i think he had seriously lost control of that process. i think congress, it was a witch hunt by then. he had become the whipping boy. he had lost a lot of authority as director of central intelligence and i think the white house just wanted to get a handle on this. so they put in george h.w. bush who was a friend of a lot of people in congress and hoffs a politician. and congress is made up of politicians. and they could deal with a

politician. >> we found this from peter jenings nuste cast on the fifth month of the year 16th day of 1996 about a minute and a half. let's watch it. >> in maryland today the body of william control by was recovered from the river the former c.i.a. director a complex man who master minded covert operations and then spent years repudiating them. >> control by's wife sally who had continued to the end to hold out hope he was alive spoke to reporters about her husband after identifying his body. >> there was not much that was left undone for him. he fought the fashists and the communists and he lived to see democracy taking hold around the world. >> officials at the scene say there is no indication of foul

play. >> we are saying a fatal boat accident. that's how it is being investigated at this point. >> a life long spy was the perfect undercover agent. so inconspicuous he could never catch the waiter's eye in a restaurant. he was fired as c.i.a. director continued raising eye brows by advocating nuclear disarmment. president clinton issued a statement praising control by as a dedicated public servant who led the c.i.a. through challenging times. and sally control by echoed those thoughts not far from the river her body was found. >> we are very proud of him. and very proud for what he accomplished and what he brought to this world. >> jack smith abc news washington. >> jack smith who is the son of howard k smith reporting that.

>> what is or what was your relationship with his second wife? >> a cordial. i would see him and her when i would visit washington in the 1980s and early 90s here and there every few months get together and have dinner at his house or -- but i kept up with my father on the telephone and saw him in los angeles or new york whenever ever i would be there because i wasn't living in washington at the time. >> how do you think he died? >> i think he as the cornor's reports, probably overexerted himself and had a heart attack or a stroke while he was out paddling his ca into in the mid evening after he had a few drink. but i have to say in my opinion, i heark back to a conversation i had had with him a few months before he died. and i called him up or we were talking and i said by the way your old friend judge teeter was found under a bridge in

vermont where he list and he has advanced alzheimer's and spent the night under a bridge. and he said that will never happen to me. and i said really? and my dad said yes. you're going to hear i was walking along a goat path in a greek island and i fell to the sea. and i said really? and he said yep. just like that. he didn't want the aarp card. never accept it had senior discount. got angry with me once when i said you would get a scoupt if you took that flight on a senior discount. he didn't want to grow old. >> no evidence of foul play here? or did you -- >> we looked into it and i'm sure the agency looked into it and there wasn't any foul play. he had enemies but it had been a long time ago. >> what was your mother's reaction? >> i think she was saddened that he was gone. she was of course not the widow. she didn't receive the flag in

arlington but i think she was sad that he had gone. that he was gone. she admired him. >> did you think at any time that he took his own life? >> no. i wouldn't -- >> not like him? >> not really like him. and but i think he was done. i think he had done what he was going to do. >> he was how old? >> 76. >> what if he was here today and watched what was going on and certainly the last 10 years in iraq or not quite and the last ten years in afghanistan? >> i think he would feel that number one that the c.i.a. is ascendancy and high regard in terms of the american people would be he would find that very favorable. i think what he would maybe question would be these persistent drone attacks and other such things. the drobes to him would be perhaps not the most efficient way to deal with our enemy in the field. it's one thing to take out bin

laden in a seal raid or to take out others on a drone attack, a senior al qaeda official. but when you start using them against other mid level officials, death from above, it's so antiseptic and surgical that my dad would coldly think maybe it would be worth capturing that fellow interrogating that fellow and hope to god turning that fellow. remember, that fellow lind who the american taliban they called him? that guide gie from sonoma, california. he grows a beard, goes to pakistan and in two or three years he's in the inner counsels of the enemy. don't urning we could recruit a few people like that? i think he valued the relationship. just like you have invaluable relationships in washington. you can't trade those. when it's brian on the phone, they know who you are. they can trust what you're going to say.

and i think my father would like what the british system really is more. they don't hire thousands more people. they just called the old boys back into the business. >> here is your father, we found this in our own archive, in 1996 just a few weeks before he died. >> the problem the chinese will tell you the reason they favor the pakistan having a capability is because the indians do. and the basic argument the pakistanis say we will foreswear a nuclear capability if the indians will. and the indians will tell you they can't foreswear it as long as the chinese have it. so you've got that problem there of they just pass the ball among each other. and continue to develop this capability. they all say i'm just doing it for my own protection because these other guys are doing it. >> had you ever heard him use that old base bal analogy in

>> there he was near tend of his life talking about something that's still relevant today. >> i think he was very far sighted. his nuclear freeze feelings back in the 80s. now you've got george schultz, william perry, henry kissinger calling basically for american unilateral nuclear disarmment. that's something my father talked about in the 820s. u but i think he was very active. he liked to have influence. and as long as he had his voice heard, then that was enough. >> you live where today? >> i live in washington, d.c. >> are you married? >> yes. >> children? >> yes. >> are they interested in this? >> in what? >> this kind of information on their grandfather. >> i think so. i have one child, he's just recently commissioned as an officer in the marine corps. >> so where do you want folks to get out of this? >> i would like people to understand that what sacrifice

is being done for their sake by people like bill control by. there are thousands of women and men in c.i.a. and special operations command who are the bill control bies of today and tonight they're lifting off out of an air base in pakistan or yemen and do we support them? is the american -- are the american people behind them and is this president selling the secret war to the american public? because why wha i would not want to happen would be for something to go awry, a couple of drones get out of control, a bomb goes off in the new york city subway station and suddenly the c.i.a. is drawn up before congress again. and who is the whipping boy? david petraeus? not likely. he is one of the most respected men in america. >> who didn't talk to you? >> nobody didn't really talk to me. i just tried to talk to dick cheney and henry kissinger. i made some overturns.

and cheney was interested but he was working on his book and then he had a heart alement issue. and then kissinger i could never really nail down. and by then i was pretty far along in the film. >> the most valuable new thing in your film. >> i would say sco croft's honesty and is really the show of how much opposition there was against my father's forth coming testimony before congress was really revealing to me. it shows the push-pull that all these secret operations are now under the looking glass. >> the name of the documentary is the man nobody knew. that's william control by who was the former c.i.a. director. and your father. carl col by. we're out of time and i thank you very much. >> thank you.

. . >> for -- vd copy of this program, call 1877662677 6. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q&a.org. programs are also available at c-span podcast. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> upcoming guests on q&a include major general ma sha anderson discussing her life and career as the highest ranking female african american in the history of the united states army. sports writer and author john fine steen discusses his latest book one on one behind the scenes with the greats in the game. and video