now, house speaker john boehner announcing the payroll tax agreement with featured democrats. this is under 10 minutes. >> good evening, everyone. senator kerry reid and i have reached an agreement on the payroll tax relief on behalf of the american people. key parts of these agreements are that on a january 1 no american worker will see an increase in their taxes. we will ensure that a new complex reporting burden is not

unintentionally imposed on small businesses. this solution will prevent small businesses very new administrative burdens and ensure that american workers will see their tax relief as soon as possible. the senate will join the house and immediately deported conferees with instructions to reach an agreement on the full one year payroll tax cut deduction along with unemployment reforms and an extension of unemployment and the so-called topics for two years. its members will work to complete the one year extension that all of us want. we will ask the house and senate to approve this agreement by unanimous consent before christmas. middle-class families and small

businesses are struggling. they are making sacrifices. i think this agreement will help our economy. one important provision that i want to highlight is the keystone pipeline. this project would create tens of thousands of jobs in our country. in this jobs project has bipartisan support in the house and senate. i hope the president will approve this pipeline to put those americans to work. i want to thank our members, particularly our conferees that have remained here in the capital with the holidays approaching for their efforts to enact a full-year extension of the payroll tax cut for working families. under this agreement, we will do that as quickly as possible. i do not think there is any tempers' celebration. our economy is struggling and there is a lot of work ahead of us in the coming year. i want to wish the american

people a very merry christmas and a happy new year. >> de you have assurances that nobody will object on the house side that you have everybody in line? "i do not know that. our goal is to do this by unanimous consent. >> there are a lot of folks who are saying you take on this. did you cave in considering the fallout, is this the worst week under your leadership? >> sometimes it is hard to do the right thing. sometimes it is politically difficult to do the right thing. when everybody call for a one- year extension of the payroll tax deduction, when everybody wanted a full year of extended unemployment benefits, we were here fighting for the right things. it may not have been politically the smartest thing in the world, but let me tell you -- i think our members which they could fight. we were able to fix what came

out of the senate. all year you have heard me talk about a short-term extensions, short-term gimmicks and the consequences they have for our e economy. when you look at this, it is another short-term extension. this creates uncertainty for job creators. i used to run a small business. i know how this works. kicking the can down the road for a couple of months does cause problems. when you look at the reporting requirement that came out of this bill because it was hastily put together, it was a big burden for businesses of all sizes. >> i know on saturday there was a link the open mike sessions. was that i decide not to have that this time. one member who i spoke with said you had been hung out to

dry by the leadership because people were not allowed to speak this type. >> i did not set up conference calls. we have a lot of members with a lot of opinions. we have fought the good fight. i talk to eat enough members over the last 24 hours. -- i talked to enough members of the past 44 hours to say they do not like this two month extension and the reporting problem in the senate bill. if you can get this fixed, why not do the right thing for the american people even though it is not exactly what we want to? >> if somebody objects and it will not passed by unanimous consent, will you bring the house back for a vote next week? >> absolutely. >> given the whole last week and we have seen so often after fop and news topics on both sides,

democrats are really charging that the radical two-party element of house republicans are to blame for this. do you think the whole fight was worth it? the you think you guys ended up getting a good compromise? >> doing the right thing for the right reasons is always the right thing to do. while everyone asks for a full year of extensions of these programs, a lot of people were not willing to put the effort and has the holidays were approaching to get it done. our members were. i am proud of the efforts they have put into this. it is not always easy to do the right thing. we believe that we came here to change the way this town does business. no more gimmicks, no more short- term this or that. it is time to do solid policy. it is time to do it the right way. thank you.

>> after the deal was released -- reached, the white house released a statement that read, for several weeks i have stated that it was critical that congress cannot go home without preventing a tax increase on 160 million americans. today i congratulate members of congress for ending the stalemate by reaching an agreement that reaches that task. you can read the entire statement at our website c- span.org. republican presidential candidates mitt romney is on a bus tour of new hampshire which his campaign as calling the tour.

it was held at the littleton elks lodge in bethlehem, new hampshire. >> how are you? 93. speak loudly. this is my pride. but to have a young one, do you not? >> is, thank you. hello, how are you this morning? how are you doing? >> it is a pleasure to meet. eye in just fine, thank you. i appreciate your help. -- ibm and just fine, thank you. where are you getting your degree? that is a long way away.

just back for the holidays. what is your subject? statistics. i'd love it. good to see you all. hello, how are you this morning? good to see you. good to see you. thank you guys. good to me you this morning. >> i am fine. thank you. >> two the center over here? this tradition is the red color? >> actually it is christmas. that is my christmastide. >> what do we have on this christmas tie? i have to check it out. thank you. >> how argue this morning?

--how are you this morning? >> a pleasure to meet. >> thank you for stopping by this morning. >> what are you going to get snow? when the you know? >> i do not know. there is nothing on my roof. >> there is some ice now. you will be slip sliding all over the roof. good morning. how are you? nice to me you. my wife, anne. are you in college? >> yes. >> where? >> maine. >> good to meet. you are helping pay for this? >> yes. >> in the loans? >> and the loans. >> what are you studying?

>> accounting. but you will get a job coming up. how about yourself? >> education. >> teaching? that is tougher. good luck to you both. are you at the same school? >> yes. >> are you the same age? >> i am a junior. >> i am a senior. >> these tuitions are about to be over. good to see you. >> nice to me you. >> good morning, how are you this morning? >> i am fine, thank you. >> nice to meet you. >> good to me you both.

>> i have the reuter steam here. -- team here. what is your name? >> a bill. >> nice to me. >> i was standing in the back of the room and the fellow next to you was your dad. that was a long time ago. >> that was probably 1994. that was probably when i was running for the senate. what brought you to new hampshire? why here? >> he built up here almost 50 years ago. had we gone by cannon mountain yet? >> no snow yet.

santa need to something to land his slate. thank you. good to see you both. >> we used to live in massachusetts and we voted for you there. we voted for you here last time. if you are really good we bobbled -- we will vote for you this time. this is my wife lisa. >> you rent space with an air facility? >> my wife is a certified home stager. it is laid out amazingly. we spend over $100,000 on

renovations on the interior of our one space. we bought 19,000 square feet so we could afford to have more. >> it is exciting. >> and a little town? >> right over the river. --in littleton? >> right over the river. >> congratulations. being an entrepreneur is what it is all about. good to see you. hello, how are you. you know this young lady. she has been around. thank you. >> thank you para >> what is the snow coming? that is the real question here >> maybe an inch or two tonight. >> maybe.

nice to see you. i hope the coffee is ok. we have some donuts and -- what else is over there? thank you, guys. >> good morning. >> he need to get some snow out there so you can track the year. nice to see you this morning. thank you for stopping by. do not get up. how are you? >> very good. and good luck. >> are you two here together? >> yes no. >> how many years? >> 12. >> do you think you will stick together? >> yes. >> good luck. >> i will do my best.

>> good morning dread good to see you. thank you. is this your son? >> yes, this is my son, dale. >> are you in college? >> in florida. >> where in florida? >> in pensacola. >> what are you studying? >> history. >> what are you going to do? >> teach most likely. public high school. i would like to get into grackle eventually. >> that is terrific. i was just with a group of high- school students in math or they have the masters teachers program. it is interesting. they have a foundation that pays each of them an extra $15,000 a year because they want to attract the really brightest into teaching at the high-school level. >> is in the city?

>> in the city of new york. a private foundation is doing it. good to see you. are the lawns piling up? >> not so much. it is pretty good. hopefully it stays that way. >> good to see. >> good morning everyone. i have a very important announcement to make. gov. mitt romney, this is a very important announcement for you and mrs. romney right here and council district no. 1 with all of the authority i have, i have declared it meant and and from the day in district number one. --mitt and an nromney day in district no. 1. [applause]

there are those of us to serve this northern district, i could not start to introduce everybody. i will introduce united states senator kelly a yacht. good morning senators. [applause] >> it is always a tough act to follow, but it is wonderful to be here this morning with all of you. i am really honored to be here to support mitt and ann romney. i want to tell you why i am here and why i feel strongly about this. this is such an important election for our country in 2012. i do not think i need to tell anyone in this room that we are at a juncture in the history of our country. we can go down two paths. we can go down a path that we see happening in europe with a

debt and economic stagnation and bankruptcy. or we can go down a path that this country is founded on. that is opportunity and prosperity and freedom and fiscal responsibility. mitt romney is somebody that has the experience in the private sector, and turning it around the olympics, as a governor, he knows we need to create an environment that the private sector can create jobs and opportunities for all the young people i see in this room. i am a mother of a four year old and a seven-year old. he is somebody that knows how to balance the budget. i have spent one year of being in washington i am on the senate budget committee. it has been 950 days in the senate since we passed a budget.

there is no presidential leadership to lead us forward. to come forward with a responsible budget and fiscal blueprint for this country. mitt romney knows how to do that. he has done and and he will do it for our country and lead us forward. finally and so important to me is that we have a president that is going to unite as and not divide us. that is what mitt romney will do with the leadership skills that he has. when you think about the private sector experience, working with members of both parties to get things done for this country, mitt romney is the one in this field who have those skills. most importantly, he is the one in my view that can beat this president and make sure that we turn our country around and lead us forward. one of the privileges over the last day of writing a run on a

bus with him, -- riding around on a bus with them, but a wonderful family and the people. you think about the character and integrity that this family has. we would be proud to call mitt romney our next president and ann romney our first lady. i am honored to be here to support him. i will work as hard as i can. i have all of you to support him and talk to your friends and family because we need a lot of help. it would not be an easy election as we go forward to the election and take on the general election. when you think about what the stakes are for our children and our grandchildren and all of us in this room, nothing could matter more. i appreciate with being with all of you today. it is my honor to introduce former gov. sununu, former head

of the republican party. just a wonderful public servant in our state. [applause] >> thank you, senator. i have to admit something. i am sitting up there and i am straining in my head trying to remember who was counselor and his district before re burton and i cannot remember. you have to understand that is a thompson that came up with the answer. i know enough to come into this district as a governor who had to deal with the council in the past. i have to start off the process by giving homage to the counselor. raymond, it is good to see you. it is great to see you and it is great to see you have made an extremely wise decision in choosing to support governor

romney for president. i thank you personally for that. in this has the senator said a very important election. i should be home doing nothing now, but i cannot. i am scared to death what is happening to this country. i am scared to death as a party, we may not understand how important it is to nominate somebody that can not only run a good race but to win. winning in this race is absolutely important. i am thrilled to see you here. as i have been doing lately, i will give you a homer kicks project assignment. you really have to go home and talk to some people about coming out on january 10 and make sure the cast a vote for mitt romney.

the country needs this. we need to make a change. we cannot make a mistake of voting wrong in our own a primary and nominating erotic candidates. we need somebody who can take this country -- we cannot make the mistake in our own primary of nominating the wrong the candidates. you do not make things work with smart quips. you make things work by knowing how to make decisions. there is about 19 days left. see if you cannot go out and make a couple of commitments from people that might not have gone and voted on the 10th and asking them to do what they need to do to save this country and in this process. thank you for being here. in my doing an introduction?

and i going to hand the microphone --oh. as you notice. john, come up here. john and i share the same fashion consultant. >> we are about the same size. >> i can tell you, there is nobody that fights for the north country stronger and harder and more effectively than john mcallister. senator dallas, why do you not tell us some of the -- tell us why you have done this morning and committing himself to supporting mitt romney. >> thank you very much, governor. [applause] nice to be here with you today. it is always a pleasure to be here with counselor burton. i did not think i could attract

such a crowd either. i have about five pages of remarks prepared. it will probably go on until noon time. actually, i have been considering for some time to public support for president of the united states. after months of the evaluation of all of the candidates we have running for president this year, i have narrowed down my choice. my endorsement goes to governor mitt romney. governor romney offers what the country needs in these trying times. my constituents are most concerned about the condition of the economy and jobs. the north country of new hampshire has been devastated by the current economy. the lack of leadership in washington. governor romney's back out from the business world as well as his tenure as a physically

conservative governor is what we need to get this great country back on track. my decision is also weighed on the person who is best suited to beat barack obama and with the general election. that person in my estimation undoubtedly is governor mitt romney. it is my pleasure, a young guy from new hampshire, to be here today to give you -- to introduce you to the next president of the united states, mitt romney. [applause] thank you, senator. i appreciate that endorsement. it has been a long time coming and it is coming at just the right time. counselor burton, he told me when the time comes he will take me to the north country. we have done this twice already. we will keep on the trial today and we appreciate your help

through the process. isn't that something to have the famous governor sununu on my team. he makes things happen -- he makes things happenin. i appreciate each of their support. i will speak clearly this morning. this young man is 93. he said he did not bring his hearing aid. he needs to be close to the speaker. i will speak clearly. my problem is i also speak quickly. i speak fast. people think i speak too fast. it will be worse this morning. when i got on the boss might find a wife was kind enough to ask if i needed cereal. would you like some toast and i put honey on it. would you like something to drink and i used chocolate milk. i am kind of high on sugar this morning. that may speed things up a bit. i fell in love with a young

woman when i was in high school. that is kind of unusual. she was 15 at the time. when i looked across this room we were in at a friend's house and i saw her and give her a ride home and we have been going steady ever since. i want her to say hello this morning. my sweetheart of 42 years, ann romney. [applause] >> good morning. he looks great. i want to look that good at 93. i want to be around at 93. thank you for coming, this is early and it is christmas. it is great you are willing to come out and beat us and say hello. we appreciate that. -- come here meet us. we appreciate that. wherever the bus goes, i go. it is great to be here. the fact i have known mitt this long.

we were high school sweethearts and we fell in love when we were young. i have seen him in all situations, and that has really given me the best plans for all of you to understand something you might not see in debates or anything else. that is the character of the man. i appreciate the fact that he has been a wonderful husband and family -- wonderful husband and father to my children. we have had great blessings of having 16 grandchildren. if you could skip having kids and just a grand kids, i would recommend it. i do not know if that is possible, but it is great. some of the stories i would like to tell but i will not in detail is how he stood by me in my darkest hours when i was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and how i can depend on him. he will always be there for me. we have a real partnership and we are in this together. i was the one who actually gave

him a lot of encouragement to think about running a second time. some of you might recognize it is a difficult thing we are going through right now. it is hard to run for the president of the united states. i knew one thing for sure, i never wanted to do it again. i felt that way pretty strongly after the last time. so strongly i had a recorded. however, at this time seeing what is going on with the country, i was the first want to say that i was sorry about saying that. he reminded me that i said that after each pregnancy and he did not pay much attention to it. i think it is important that he run. it is not that there aren't other good people out there. it is that i know the skills that he has is unusual. he has done things in private business and government and the olympics. if you combine all of those things and they have all been a turnaround situation.

if there is an emergency or you need something fact, i know who to turn to. i appreciate you being here. maybe you can ask mitt romney some tough questions. >> thank you, sweetheart. [applause] the senator said it well. we are at a juncture in america's history right now as to what kind of nation we will be. we have been going down a road of larger government, a more troubled economy, unclear to why it is in many people's minds that the recession has dragged on and on. we are now 25 million people in this country that are out of work or just stopped looking for work or can only find part-time work. we have a number of college folks here today that will be coming out of college or ph.d. programs and hope to be able to find a job and wonder if they will be able to do so.

that was not a question for 10 years ago. you came out of college with a degree and you knew you would have a job. it is very different today. people wonder why that is. i happen to believe it is because over the past several years and during the period of his president, we have taken a course that has made america weaker economically. made it harder to create jobs and for enterprises to grow and thrive. we have a young entrepreneur a couple here. well, i say young -- to me you are young. they have opened a substantial business and taking a rest. there are fewer people willing to do that today. we have insisted on the government that tries to guide the private sector like it is trying to guide our lives. i think you see a president who believes we should be more like you're up with an entitlement society. a society where government takes

from some and give to others interest to make everybody the same. the only people who do well and that kind of society are the people who work for government. that is welfare society and in tadema's society is something that is growing in this country and making us more like europe and less like america. i believe in something of mccollum opportunity society where people based upon their education and their hard work and their risk-taking are able to earn rewards and by virtue of doing so they implored the rest of us and let the entire nation's prosperity and allow us to defend ourselves. it was that vision that the founders brought to america with the crafted the declaration of independence. they said the creator and out us with unalienable rights among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. that last phrase we may not think about much but i think it

is an important one. this would be a nation where we could pursue happiness and the way we choose. where we live, what profession we see, what job we get, how many kids we have, the freedoms we have, our ability to speak our mind. these abilities to pursue happiness as we wish define our nation and brought people all over the world -- pioneers, innovators, to this country. it is in our dna. the spirit of pioneering this would have allowed our economy to outperform the economies of europe from which many of us sprung. it has outperformed the most populous nations of asia. we are an opportunity nation. over the last several years, in particular under the leadership of president obama, government

increasingly takes away our freedoms and the capacity of the beer can system and our enterprises to grow and thrive. this is a choice we are going to have to have. do we believe in a bigger government taking more from us and limiting what we achieved or do we believe in free enterprise and freedom and opportunity and a merit based society. do we vilify and demonize those who have been most successful or will we celebrate the success of all americans? these are the choices i think america will have to face. i spent my life in the private sector the first 25 years of my career. i know how the private sector works. i want to use those lessons to help washington and to make sure we once again restore the greatness that is i had the occasion to use those skills in state government.

you remember i had the opportunity in four years. i found the same skills could be adjusted and applied in a way that allowed us to do a better job managing our state. we balance the budget every four years. states do that. businesses do that. we learn how to live within a budget. washington does not do that. i went to bring the skull to washington. when you are in business you have to get along with your customers, your suppliers, the regulators, the bankers, the investors, you have to work with each of these groups to have different interests and make sure you have a combination of the different interests. in washington we need somebody who will be able to get a long with people across the aisle. in my state of massachusetts there are a few democrats. my legislature was 85% democrat. and yet, i found a way to work

with leaders among the democratic party and finding some common ground. neither side had to violate their principles. instead, we found some places where we could agree and work together to try to make things better for our state. that is desperately needed in washington. be called a leadership. leadership is the capacity to bring others to a common solution. to have a vision and the capacity to understand others need to build trust and have them know you are a person of character. to be able to follow and find solutions to our challenges. i but like to help the senator. she is a terrific person and a great leader for the people of new hampshire. i want to go in washington and work with her to help america. i want to do a lot of things. balance our budget, make america the most attractive place again for entrepreneur is and innovators. that is part of the mission i

will have in washington. with that introduction, i will turn to you have you ask some questions. i will turn to you. this is the entrepreneur. is that a northern european name? >> sicilian. do i not look it? >> i will not try to spell it. >> loiacono. >> it takes a hand. you have to move your hand to see the word. >> mike and i are very involved in this election as we have been the most recent elections. -- my wife and i are involved in this election as we have been in most elections. i will offer a suggestion. it has nothing to do with the debates.

none of us have gone through life having made a decision and always stuck through it the rest of our lives. some decisions absolutely. we have moved, changed his bosses, we have -- changed spouses, we have changed businesses, college majors, what i am trying to say is that i do not want a president or a leader who is inflexible. i do not want somebody who has made a decision on something may be 10 years ago and despite any new information, he will stick to that decision. you have been painted by some of your opposition both from the democrats and your fellow primary seekers as having flip- flop on some issues.

i would not run away from that. i would say, yes, i have. new information has come and i have was an up or what ever. i do not want somebody who is just going to be full speed ahead toward the torpedos no matter what. things change. you look at history and one that we are friends with this country and the next day we are not. that is just something from somebody who has observed and watched. i do not think it is such a terrible thing to change your opinion on something. i think it would be useful to where it as a badge of courage. >> thank you. having had the experience of living in the private sector i have found that more than once i have been wrong. in the private sector if you do not recognize you are wrong and you keep sticking to a position you have before you have all the data you get in your experience,

the call you stubborn. with time he would be likely to get your job. -- he would be likely to lose your job over the course of my lifetime, some of my views have changed. not as many as my opponents would suggest. one of those was on the issue of life and that was one where i thought i would have -- or i thought i had the answer when i was running for senate and then when i became governor. i was given a piece of legislation that would have created new life for the purpose of experimenting on it and then destroying it. this was an embryonic stem cell research. i could not sign a bill that would take life. i recognized that was a very different course than i had expected. i wrote an editorial in the boston globe describing why i made that decision and why was pro-life. i have been convinced of that

ever since. thank you. >> i would like to ask a question. i have three ladies that are in their 80's that i am friends with. they are still in their own homes. the price of heating and taxes is a struggle. they have outlived their husbands. their interest rates have gone down. they all talk about buying a home with the 3% and 4%, but what can be done when you go to washington hopefully to help those people who have counted four years for that extra income each month and especially now with the world, it is hitting all three of them hard. >> it is really tough right now. you are fighting throughout this country that it is harder and harder on middle income families. seniors and middle income families that are just getting started, you are finding people by the virtue of the

unemployment level and the cost of oil and food and people have all gone up. it is having a harder time. the best thing i can do is get the economy going again. the growth of the economy as such so people are going back to work, paying taxes, buying more things which will ultimately mean interest rates are not held onto virtually zero. we recognize that by holding interest rates as low as they are some of the people who are helping to refinance the financial-services sector that has been in such trouble our seniors who are seeing lower interest rates coming in month to month by virtue of low rates on cds and other investments. the best thing i can do is get the economy going. we can go back and look at the inflator is used for social security. i know there has been no adjustment in the last two or

three years in part because the cpi has not shown any movement. people are really struggling. it breaks my heart to see so many folks in this country really having a hard time. part of that is because of an economy that is just in the doldrums and continues to be in the doldrums. it will continue to be liked germans have been in for a long time and japan has been for decades. we will be like this for a long time if we continue to act like europe. if we believe that the government can manage the economy better than free people pursuing their dreams. i want to get back to the point where america is once again the best place in the world for entrepreneurs and for inventors and businesses small and large to have -- when the head of coca-cola, talk about an american brand. chief executives says america is less attractive

from a business standpoint and china, a better environment there, that means the dollars are going over there. investment is happening there rather than here. i want to bring them back years our people create jobs here and build businesses here. that lives of our economy and will help all of those who invest in our economy whether it is with bonds or stocks or whether it is with cds. if the economy is strong and vibrant, the returns to all of us is vibrant the economy in trouble means a lot of middle income families in trouble. >> a interest what would -- what you would do specifically for the environment that is better for entrepreneurs in the land of opportunity you talked about earlier. >> i will call the seven major things that create an

investment family and business family, job family environment that allows jobs to start to grow. actually, the seven are a summary of 59 different points i put in a little book. we may have some here. i will not take you through all of those. i am not sure i could take you to all of us. 7 i can do. one is to make sure the tax rates are competitive with tax rates on employers and other countries. right now we are the highest in the world by a lottery be are tied with japan. relative to europe, their tax rate is about 25% and hours is 35%. we need to get our tax rate down to be competitive with others. regulators and regulations have to recognize that their job is not just to catch the bad guys and keep at things from happening, but also to encourage the sector they are regulating to succeed.

rather than burdening the private economy they need to encourage it. you know in the north country with the regulators say in and say you cannot camp in national forests, you cannot use -- the land has been set aside for small boat -- snowmobiling and so forth, the regulators think they are making things better but they hope -- they heard the economy. tourism and use of your national resources is something that is essential. regulators have to understand that is part of their job. it is encouraging the economy and the private sector. you have to have trade policies that opened up new markets for our goods and allow us to sell products where right now they are not going because of high tariffs. no. two, you have to make sure that the cheaters -- china has been a cheater but too often -- the cheaters are held accountable.

we have to take advantage of our armed energy resources. we have a lot of energy in this country. oil, gas, coal, nuclear power, we have to take advantage of them instead of regulators trying to keep them from providing the resources we need. i was the head of a large chemical company, he said we just announced a $20 billion facility in saudi arabia. he said we would rather build in pennsylvania, but we could not count on the regulators to texas -- let us get access to the natural gas. we are talking about tens of thousands of jobs because of that decision. it is like the keystone pipeline decision. let's get our own energy in this country and that will help create jobs. you have to get the role of lot to get the environment right. what do i mean by that? we have something today called the crony capitalism or the

president takes care of his friends. obamacare for instance. these units are give it -- the unions are given waivers. they do not have to worry about that burden because they are his friends. boeing is told they cannot build a factory in south carolina employing people because south carolina is not a union state. and this is an example of people up. indifference to positions of power with and give paybacks to the people who helped them out. we have to go back to the rule of law. we have to have institutions that create human capital. capitalism is about human capital. it is about education, immigration policies that bring in the best and brightest of other places that help the rest of us. if you want to businesses and

small and large to make the risky decision of investing in america, they cannot be worried that we are going to hit a wall like greece or italy or spain. they have to say american will be stable long-term and the currency will be worth something. we have to quit spending more than we taken. we cannot keep going year after year barring an extra $1 trillion. i remember what president obama was highly critical of bush for debt -- deficits that were as high as $450 billion. and right he was to be critical. his have reached three times that it down. by the end of his first four years and hopefully his only four years, he will have put together as much public debt as all the prior presidents combined. almost. it is really extraordinary.

those are the seven things that i would do and act upon immediately to make america an attractive place for entrepreneurs big and small so they have a desire to hire more people. that way people coming out of programs across the country, whether they will go into teaching -- word you go with statistics? what kind of job? >> may be a professor at the university. >> may be governed -- government leadership and responsibility. i want to make sure people with those skills have good jobs and incomes. we have wages that rise in america. over the last 10 years -- over the last four years, let me get the numbers right. the last four years the median income has dropped by 10%. this is a tough time. thank you.

that is a long answer to a simple question. >> i want to know what your views are on bureaucracy in washington. a lot of the big departments, epa, health and human services, there regulations and telling everyone what to do. is there a way to cut that out and eliminated or cut it back? >> that is a darn good question. one of the challenges with too many regulators and bureaucrats is the create too many bureaucracies that become struggling for our lives and our economies. when i went into the state of massachusetts, i looked at our department of health and human services. we have 15 different agencies within the department. i said, can we not combine them? we got them into three different groups and that allowed us to have fewer lawyers, if your public relations or press secretaries. we were able to take out some of the overhead. he had some agencies like

transportation and the environmental agency, the were always at each other's throats and arguing with each other. i said to we put them together? i put one person in charge of the three to make them work together and become more effective. we look back over my record in massachusetts for four years, and we did something i do not think many states can claim. if you look at all the agencies that report to the governor, all the departments whether it is the state police or folks and health and human services, part number of employees went down during my tenure. i look at washington and believe we should do three big things. one is to eliminate some programs. stop them altogether. it is not wise to keep borrowing money from china to pay for things we do not have to have. i will cut some programs out, even some i like. i will be calling on the

american people to say we are willing to sacrifice the end of this program or that program because america cannot to going the way that it is. number two, i will take some programs like medicaid which is the health care program for the poor and send it back to the states. i think new hampshire can do a better job caring for the health care needs better than washington can. i was spent -- said some things back to the states. for the remaining portion of government, will cut the payroll by 10% through attrition. how will link the pay of government workers with the pay that exists in the private sector. [applause] i do not think people who are working as public servants should make a heck of a lot more than people who are paying their way. one more thing that i will mention in that regard, those

who work in public sector unions, i do not think it is fear for their bosses to take dos out of their wages and it then for the boss to be able to decide which candidate or party to give it to a people want to contribute to candidates they should be free to do so. i do not think union bosses should be able to take hundreds of millions of dollars from union members and give it to who they want to give it to. that is what i will do to take on the bureaucracy in washington. you can be assured of this. if i become president of the united states, the people who work in government will be a smaller number than they are today. i am not discounting our president -- our troops. president clinton talked about shrinking the military. i would actually like to add personnel to the military so the burden is not as great on them as it has been the past couple of years. he told me i have to run.

we are moving on down the road. come join us, we will take some questions there as well. i want to say thank you for your willingness to spend some time. i look forward to seeing you out there on january 10. thank you. [applause] >> hear what the candidates are saying at the newly designed c- span website for 2012. >> the vast majority of those as far as money is concerned are operated by the state government. why? because they are state functions. another federal government thinks they have a role to play in doing something that is a state function. >> face those out to treat everyone the same dread wind,

solar, what ever it needs to be. the huge federal government does not need to pick winners and losers in the energy industry. >> read the latest comments from candidates and political reporters and links to c-span media partners and the early stages at c- span.org/campaign2012. >> we will hear from a panel of reporters and media executives at an event held at the museum of broadcast communications in chicago. this is one hour and a 10 minutes. >> a very old media brand doing a lot of things. it is appropriate here at a museum of broadcast communications. the questions we are or to talk

how much broadcast is there any more? everything is delivered to you directly. there is no twitter museum yet. there are television and radio museums. museum is not always a great word. it has to preserve something that is going away. there is still the radio. people still write poetry. it is all changing in ways that are dramatic. you will hear from this panel about what is going on and what the future holds. evan ratliff is one of the best magazine writers around. he wrote a fantastic piece a couple of years ago where he went off the grid.

it was fantastic. he is here because he is the founder of --it was a fantastic pace. more importantly he is here because he is the founder of something called "the atavist," which i would recommend you all down lead. he has a many-publishing empire where he takes tax and puts it to music, video, enhancing in a way where all media will have to be going forward. kara kara swisher is the editor of a site called allthingsd, and i have been reading her closely because she followed aol like nobody's business. and it was nobody's business. those folks like me who work at a company which used to be called a all-time warner read --

aol time warner read everything you wrote like it was the bible. joe mcginnis, the selling of the president, one of the seminal books about politics in america. it changed the way the people report about politics. he went outside the nixon campaign. it is a book i read a couple of years ago. it is incredibly well reported and well written. joe has written 11 books since then. many of them bestsellers, including the series about the jeffrey macdonald murder case. he has been in the news once again because he rented a house next to sarah palin and has written a book that sarah palin -- sarah palin and her many fans do not think is great. that may be good for you. i was reading it this morning. ayman mohyeldin, the only time 100 honoree here. he used to be -- he worked for nbc many years ago. then he migrated to al jazeera where he had opportunity to do something that was a one left on -- once in a lifetime thing. of're at the epicenter

something that i think is truly transformational. ayman has cast that in and is going back to nbc as a foreign correspondent. only in american media company would call an international correspondent of foreign correspondent. any place that is not america is far and. -- foreign. you will fix that. jim warren managed to figure out, how do i keep the best and most important of old media, shoe leather journalism, talking to people and going out and reported which he still does, mashing that with new media, twitter, facebook?

jim was the managing editor of the "chicago tribune." he now writes for other magazines and i think you will talk a little bit about that when we start talking. we're going to figure everything out for you today. we chatted beforehand and basically this is a conversation that all journalists have all the time. what is happening and what is the future? we will talk about what is happening now in the future. kara saw i had a piece of paper stuck to my foot, and then just said, print media.

when i was walking out the door, the editor as me, why are you leaving? i said don, the water is rising and you are on the lower plane at the "wall street journal." >> the first book where things were going wild. -- well. i was very adamant that this be the end of the newsprint, everything i was doing at the washington post. when i was walking out the door, and he asked why are you leaving? i said the water is rising in the lower plane at the wall street journal. won nothing felt was important to me was that new organizations did not understand what was happening. everyone else was covering -- one of the media reporters, that was the hot thing at them

journal to be of media reporter, they said that you'll be covering cb radio. that is what they called the internet. there was a smart executive there who funded it and let us do it. they were losing big retailers who were not advertising anymore. it was almost impossible not to see the implication on news and how was delivered. my premise was that people did not want news, they did not what the newspaper. i was not reading the newspaper. years later when it did a saturday journal, they had focus

groups, but people liked about it. i thought it was hallmark. having to read it on saturday. i would sit in the back. they would say what you think about this? they finally got to me, what you think about the saturday journal? i wanted to put their money into online. how can we get people to read the news? i said if you take a joint between every page that will work. [laughter] it would be fantastic. it would give you a new perspective on warren buffett. so i kept pushing and pushing. i was going to leave because they did not want to find -- fund a blog. this was 2001. i was pushing them. my partner and i threatened to leave.

we believe this is the way it is going. there was a smart executive there who let us do it. it has worked out well. itis still struggle within the journal for everyone to understand how quickly everything is changing. how you can do more with less. >> in that struggle, it is what people worry about. is this going away? i find it a strange question. never in the history of the world has there been more information available to more people in greater amounts and death in human history. in sunday's, it is the greatest -- in some ways, it is the greatest era of media. we have not figured out had to make money for it. you have a foot in both camps. how was it going to work? can they charge for it to? people like brands. they like the new york times. there are in different to the form that it takes.

>> i am here in a museum. i did not see any of this coming. i was clueless. when decisions are being made in the 1990's, it was almost like lbj and vietnam, 50,000 and then he had more soldiers on the ground. similar with the internet. you woke up and everyone was using the internet. you're giving it away. i come from an industry that has seen its revenue good to $24 -- go from $49 billion to $24 billion. they have come down crashing.

one third of the people in newsrooms a decade ago are now gone. i agree with you that there is a lot of access instantaneously to lot of information. if you look at the local level, this situation is very ambiguous. you cannot have 32 people covering the state legislature in this state. now they have a little bit above 20 to have major papers in the second biggest city pullout of the state legislature for financial reasons, and not have ambiguity about the quality of local content. we were born as a result of a tumultuous times at the tribune, and one of the bigger ones in the country, only 30 television stations and a lot of newspapers, they went into bankruptcy.

we started as a small nonprofit. the good news is our main client, the new york times, we produce a couple of pages on friday and sunday, very happy with the product. the not so good news is do we have a sustainable business model? i think that is very unclear at this point. whether the one will be able to get to folks, mostly the old foe is paying $700 to have the print subscription, to pay anywhere near that for the stuff that they may get online, and when we get into this later when it comes to politics, the lack of consensus, fragmentation, if personalization the media, there is a real potential loss in these local communities where many of the paper goes serve a social medicine, doing the things -- social mission, doing the things like the chicago tribune on the subject of the death count, robbing a long -- writing long exposes expo's these -- right team along expos days -- writing long expose about the death penalty. there's some questions to be raised as we go along, and i have a distinct sense of a transitional period, as we head down another path, even with all the wonderful new means of

twitter and facebook and all that at our disposal that can get a lot more information out to folks theoretically. there's still a big question about what happens at a local level if you do not have enough revenue to support a high enough quality staff so that you can have reporting in a sophisticated way, rather than some $35,000 deal or something like that. to me, that is the big question. what will be the sustainable model for any of these newly flowering, very idealistic, well intentioned organizations like

ours? >> i will get to you in a second. one of the things you put your finger on and a worthy topic of discussion is, is the social mission of what we all do. the constitution protect one industry, media. they did not have the word then, but it is the free press. you could not have a democracy without a free press. the mantra of the internet for years has been information wants to be free. i always think that people want reaffirmation. information does not want anything at all. but you talk about a sustainable model.

putting something together that, i do not know, will people pay for? will preserve some of the traditional values by packaging it in a new form? >> that is what we're trying to do. that is what we have done so far. part of our premise starting out was that you can actually do the stories that we do with a smaller scale, a smaller scale operation. instead of being a magazine that has 100 people working for it, we're very focused on paying the writers to go out to the world and report on something in debt, find the narrative story and bring that back and then we have a small system up fact checking, we have an in-house fact checker, but a is all contained and it is all around the story. you do not have to sell that many stories in order to make up what you have put out. so that as kind of like one premise that we have adopted, was, we wanted to have a small model that was able to make its money back and not make a profit and make money for the writers as well, and sending someone out for months it time, that is obviously going to cost money. but the way we sell our stories

on the ipad and iphone and nook, we sell them as a book. that premise is where there is so much information, so much recent information, twitter, breaking news, all over the web, huffington post, that there might be a space for stories that are longer, that have more debt, where someone is spending time not only to get further into the story, but also to find that compelling narrative that makes it fun to read. we are tackling that space assuming that, well, in the digital world, that is one of the hardest things to do. that is one of the things that the web has not done well, creating narrative longer than 2500 words. and we're finding that there is a niche in there. if you want to keep your overhead low, you can make money. and as a startup organization, we approach it as a tax startup, we are a news organization with

a social values that you talk about and we have people spending half their time thinking of weekend's show a video and coded in today feed, we're taking a very technology first approach to how we tell the story. >> and they are not just long. when people that historic to me, -- pitch a story to me, we can do a long story on x, the problem with your pitches the word long. but i think what you're doing is creating something that people might actually want to pay for.

you're talking about people reading keith richards' autobiography. but i loved the book. i was so frustrated that i could not hear music and see video while i was reading it. the future of book publishing will be things like that. but speaking of long form, you are a master of a long form, and you have been doing it the long time. even in "the selling of the president," it was about how people shape to the views of the audience in terms of the content that is produced. one of the controversies your book has pointed up is the idea that in the new media world, people can not -- because it is all pull the not pushed -- you can find a point of view that agrees with you and you are not forced to read a contrary opinion. is that part of the reaction to your book? >> i am not so sure about that. but i did think that i sit here as the dinosaur in the room. probably the only person here who is collecting social security. but that does not mean i am not interested in the future. i like to think that i still have a future.

however, the kind of work i have been doing for 40 years has been dependent on the economic model of publishing, reaching an audience, making the publisher field that they want to invest in your in your next book and not just throw money down a dream. -- down a drain. some books i could never get a contract to write them because the potential audience is simply not big enough. one of the other things that has happened over recent years that i think has been a real step backwards has been the failure of magazine journalism to sustain itself. back in the selling of the president days, there were so many magazines, weekly and monthly, harper's, the atlantic, the saturday evening post, that printed long form journalism. that word to not exist but it was a story.

almost all of them have gone by the wayside. i have a friend named tom juno, one of the best magazine writers in america, worked for esquire, and we were talking recently about a couple of story ideas and i said, gee, that might be in egypt -- in interesting thing for me to do for esquire. and he said they are not hiring in the house side writers. -- any outside writers. it is all produced by the staff. what if i had a story that i wanted to tell that the magazine is not going to want to -- the magazines are not there anymore. alas magazine story i wrote was about sarah palin's nonexistent natural gas pipeline. it was in her next-to-last

issue. i did not quite close it up but i came close. i spent three weeks in alaska researching that story. without padding, my expenses came to $12,000. most magazines will not even pay the fee of $12,000 anymore. what is a writer to do? this is where i look at the gentleman to my right and i look at "the atavist" and i say this as my savior. this is where we can still do the kind of work i like to do. we do not have to make decisions on simply commercial but tell the stories that we want to tell and reach of smaller audience. he can make money because he does not have the overhead. i think that "the atavist" is one of the most important steps forward. they're very few people who support themselves solely by writing anymore. i have a lot of novelist friends who already said that the one thing that would never do is teach. i can find them now on faculties all over the country because they cannot sell their books. now they are teaching. likewise, the work i am doing, most nonfiction books are not written by people who make a

living at it. people are either connected to an organization, like kara rights and excellent book but does not make a living as a book writer. the book is something extra. another writer for the new yorker writes books as a supplement. talese is one, and another is still working, but not many other people are out there. no new people are coming into writing nonfiction for a living because there is no living to be made at it.

if it is not a celebrity biography, which maybe we think sarah palin is a celebrity biography, but basically that kind of books, the best nonfiction writers have always been interested in planting, the market seems to have disappeared, not entirely, not entirely. obviously there are good new books, but for the mid level, the writer who is not a star or a guaranteed best seller, the publishers will not pay the money, the magazines are not there anymore, so you need something like "the atavist" to keep this tradition of paternalism alive. -- journalism alive. >> and there are other forms of that. single evokes, and one of the -- kindle singles, and one of the things that we have done that time, we had a cover story about

the new thinking about the civil war. it came in at 10,000 words. we were on we going to run 5000 words. it became a kindle single. it did not make a lot of dough, but that is in the future. you started out in what used to the new media -- television and broadcast journalism. let them know how this change for you. because no one can do just one thing anymore. i am sure you have pressure to tweet, to blog, to write stories online. you said that nbc looked on like other networks has a 24 hour cable. it has the msnbc web site and a panoply things. but that means that you have to do all of those things. >> yes, and in my perspective, i think there is a huge difference between information and knowledge. we all sit in this room and a

bomb could go off in afghanistan and within minutes we would get it on our messages and facebook and twitter. but very few of us will understand why that actually happened. there's a difference between knowledge and information. the difference between media and journalism. at the end of today, good journalism will ultimately sell. what we are challenged with now and i think what the american public have grown frustrated with is one way journalism, where that journalists is an off formal setting, holds the microphone, and tells you what the most important story is. but it may not be what you think is the most important story. what is changing is that there is a much more viewer-reporter involvement.

so many times, even coming up here, i greeted and asked people what they thought was the future of journalism. i got a tremendous amount at the book of people -- feedback from people. if there is a good product, people will buy it. that is what itunes shows us and kindle shows us. i use it to news gather and to disseminate. there are so many times in the middle east where something is happening in syria, journalists are not allowed to get in, a military attack on a small village, i can get on twitter and message the people that follow me. within seconds, i will say -- i would get a number or a contact. i will get that information and do that journalism part, verify, report, and use the same

technology used to get the information to disseminated to the public. this is become a two-way street. i would never have been able to get that content from my sources, but i was not able to disseminate without that same technology. >> so, again, you put out a tweed. -- tweet. what is the future of journalism? >> i think the constant thing that i got was not being told. media should not be beholden to the interest of the few that define the rundown, so to speak. it is all about your involvement and your engagement. people want to be able to understand what is happening. they do not want to be told information. they want to be involved in the knowledge process and the analysis of that information. >> can go the other way? i was just on the fox news show this morning in chicago, and just before my segment, they had a story about the red sox general manager, probably going to take over the chicago cubs. they put out a thing on the screen, tell us what you think. will he do it? then there was an entire three- minute segment where they showed the responses they were getting from viewers and saying this is what so and so things, this is what's so and so things. -- thinks.

of what value is that? that gets you an audience, guess, but to me, it is wasting a lot of time. >> it is discouraging in a way. if you look at the surveys done about internet use and sites like amazon, people trust. valuations more than they trust traditional journalism -- they trust peer evaluations more than they trust traditional journalism. to people understand journalism and what role it plays? if they value the opinions of their peers, what value is it for a man like yourself saying what is important and why? >> there is less a sense of that and what are trustworthy sources and on interest was a pace sources. it is a complicated issue and deals with the educational

system and a lack of civics education, people not knowing the difference between the person blabbing on fox or msnbc, kara and, kara who may have taken two weeks to assess the problem. we are also partly to blame if you take political coverage. i think we have simply taken the political system's obsession over the last 20 or 30 years for making mountains out of molehills, for going negative, and tactics and strategy has fed right into that. you get the echo chamber if you look at the debate coverage of the republican debates this morning, and watch the mainstream media and, you will see stories about statecraft and are at best -- artifice and about how people are trying to position themselves.

i was looking a more distant than i plan, and i lifted a blimps are restored. -- i stumbled across a bloomberg story. not only did i learn about substantial economic issues but they seemingly sophisticated analysis of what they were saying. that when romney says that obama healthcare plan calls $1 billion, it is bs. when perry says that he created 50,000 taxpayer funded jobs in texas, that is bs. when herman cain talks about balancing the budget, it is absolutely, totally impossible. but i do worry about whether or not someone growing up with an ipad will have a sense of where there is an error of authority. you work for a network news operation which is in some ways imperil the by some of the very technology that it is employing. a quick demonstration cairo, and i do not have to wait for my friend brian williams. i will not wait for bryan williams, because whether it is on my mobile device or on my mac, i'll be seeing dozens of

video from tahrir square. i have no clue who i might trust. how do i sort that out, not hating on consumer journalist, but the guy at patterson, new jersey, going on youtube, and there are 50 videos of the demonstrations? >> i have to disagree with you. maybe i am not wearing a blue blazer. >> our pants a different color. >> that said, there is nothing wrong with these people speaking up. there is no reason to abandon ethics and at that same time have fairness. " we believe that all those

things are critically important. including that you trust our brand. at the same time, incredibly valuable things being brought up by readers. i have always thought that readers were smarter than i was. when e-mail was just coming out, at reporters rely quite you want to hear from the reader? i would say that they know things and they tell me stuff. the argument that come from old media that this stuff is not trustworthy or is not right, it is not vetted. that is not entirely true. first of all, i love in your -- new york times but it is a bunch of white dudes and a lady who all live on the upper east side. >> upper west side. >> it is the same people. it is the same people. secondly, if people are smart and they can rise above this. they can rise above the noise and you will get patrols but -- trolls but you'll get a much more rich and valuable system -- you will get the trolls, but you get a much more rich and valuable system. we have a respect for the story

as it is ongoing. and it can get better and better. keep in mind, getting more video adds richness to the store. -- story. >> kara, lest i get characterized as a luddite who grew on the upper west side and wearing a blue blazer. >> your tie is fantastic. >> i got it in london. [laughter] i think it is great that all that stuff is out there. if it is a book, you will not be edition. create a form that was not viable before.

it is talking about the importance of bad. the time that twitter blew me away was with the iranian uprising. it people were trading in real time. it is real time information. if you had benjamin franklin tweeting, you have books. we would know. how does that affect? i do not know how you can pay brian williams so much money had is that affect your reporting? ? how you compete with them? >> i do not care if they watch

my news reports on tv or on their watch. that is not my concern. and forest lake, at the big corporations to delay this is how quickly i can give my report to you. that is one part of it. i want people to consume news. when the biggest challenges is the steve jobs case. i believe it was wednesday night. by thursday, all three networks left with his debt. there's not a single information that i learned that i did not learn just by normal regular consumption. i did not got my way to do anything. i did not pick up a newspaper.

friends were posting things on facebook. i cannot tell you the number of people who have linked this commencement address. somehow they decided it would be such an important elements. nobody knew about it. have you just turned on the internet? i am new to the company. when you talk about this, this is a personal theory. i could be wrong. the internet itself needs to be restructured. all of us today have a television set. some of us will pay but hundred $50 to get the premium channels. and some of us is one the basic

11 channels. i do not think that model is a wrong model. i do not think that all of us visit that trillion websites that exist. we visit about a dozen to two doesn't websites on a regular basis. and spend a lot of time there. why would an internet company charge me $100 to have access to a trillion websites one i only used 10? if they give you access to the new york times for an additional $5 fee flat, i am still getting the same experience, but $4 for every package of websites that i want, a bundle of website. you can start bundling them. you can get that for $4, al jazeera english, arabic, and you may not want that. you may be very content with a few american newspapers and you will pay the $4.

but there is none of this going back and here is a $99 cents for this premium article. here it out -- i want to be of a access the internet but i understand that it i'm going to give you a good product, that comes with costs. that goes back to what i said earlier. the american sumer's are willing -- consumers are willing to pay for a good product. you increase the quality of journalism and the product, people will pay for it. and finally, making the material more enriching, one of the key products that nbc is working on is that they have an amazing arcade that goes back to the 1921 universal media. they did this book about john f. kennedy that is called "50 days." they had an ipad application that goes along with the book. their pictures that if you tap on them, you see the report filed on the day that john f. kennedy gave a stern speech,

all when jacqueline onassis went to paris. i cannot live around the time of john f. kennedy, but i want to learn as much as possible, and i am so fascinated by our reporters back and used it -- back then used to covered presidents and how polite they were. nobody nowadays, so i think the technology is going to take my package, my reports, and it will put it on the website and an article about egypt with a video from nbc about the revolution and perhaps also a link to a longer format book. and you get this great product for the small fee of $3.99.

>> [unintelligible] >> one is this going to happen? >> alan ask a question about technology. i like to ask you to weigh in on this. we think that this is organic. speaking of technology. cultural forms are organic, and i forget the guy who wrote the book back in the 1950's and 1960's, but he began set by saying the record album. you know why i record album exist? because someone invented long playing technology. it used to be just singles. they invented along verplank -- a longer playing record and that created the album. we just grew up thinking that albums were organic. but technology changes cultural forms. we were talking about steve jobs on the way in. i was skeptical. how did everything that he did change the form of what we consume, but they have been a radical way. i like for you to talk about

that. what is the value of the tweet 140 characters? but believe me, they will have collected books of the best tweets of the decade. >> you can tweak of product and endorse it. >> you can get kim card-and to -- kardashian to endorse a product. >> that woman is a visionary in some respects. here is the thing. when i go to even sit for speeches, all of these formats is because the media likes it that way. not because people consuming that way. i'll start by going the kids love it. they love the internet. stop arguing about what would happen. you do not have a right to be in business. the kind of stories on groupon. they feel like they have a right to exist and not have

economic reality imposed on them. they do not want to adapt to the way people consume media. people like smart phones and ipads. people like to get their news and little bursts. people like facebook. start to adapt and create quality things. the technology is important. what you are carrying is a more powerful computer you had 10 years ago. a computing device. it is a big opportunity for media to take advantage of it. they have to stop saying i wish it was not so and do things. we do not yet rid of quality and accuracy. but we adapt. we do not make as much money as brian williams.

that is not bad for the consumer. you have to think, what do people want to have it? >> that what the technology is doing, i have been saying this for 10 years. the visual image is replacing the written word as the basic unit of communication. because technology enables us to see everything as it is happening, to see the coverage of the jfk, who wants to read about it? the impact to see it and hear it. the written word was a way of explaining things to a reader. if you can show them and tell them through visual imagery, it is more powerful. the printed word has had a good

run. it started with a gutenberg and that is run through steve jobs. now it is being replaced by something new which will be more visual and suitable for the new technology we have. >> you are you needing not -- uniting all of them. what i take exception to, the rise of e-mail, more people around the world type than any time in human history. my kids learn to type when they were eight years old. they have written more than i probably ever wrote at that age. >> and iphone is tough to type. i had to give up on my android phone. even with the ipad, i am not dexterous enough. >> you do not have to choose. it kills media that the consumer can choose. they can have a video, audio, text, you can pictures of things

you like and people talk about them. you have to stop arguing about the media, how it is coming through and realize you can do anything. >> one of the challenges journalists face is, they are annoyed about the fact that when they make a rundown, but they aren't prioritizing the stories. maybe we do not think it is important. they may lead with this story when everyone thinks of something different. order people going to do? change the channel. i do not want to waste my time watching a report about the weather when i do not think it is important.

>> consumers do not care what i think. >> of the evening news, even that idea that there is a hierarchy on the front page of a newspaper, people do not want you to say this is more important. >> if i can say my opinion, stop putting emphasis on what the lead story is. give me the best story today. you know if there are important stories, people will find a way to get to them. make sure they're getting to the public and people will choose. egypt is the most important story for me. somebody else think it is that jobs are the houses. if you're thinking you have 22 minutes, i am not even going to

put egypt on a list, you are monopolizing your 22 minutes and you're turning off of the worst. if the viewership is declining, it is not because people do not want news, everything you're telling them they have marty consumed. -- already consumed. >> what does it rick do with a weekly magazine? >> every form still exists. people still make pottery. >> don't compare yourself to pottery. [laughter] >> please do not tweet that. right there, they are writing about this in real time. we are on every platform that there is. in a way, the print magazine is

a legacy product. it is a product from a brand. i love getting the tweets. i will throw in this print magazine that comes out once a week. there are plenty of people, we have 12 million users a month online. they read a story on time.com and it will be a surprise to discover there is a print product as well. people will have every form of media. >> you have to make judgments on what is going to go into the magazine. you do not have room for everything. >> that is true. online you could. even online is shrinking. how does your technology answer some of these questions?

>> i would first agree that the difference for me is you have to make an argument for the readers that you are the place they're going to go to for that story. the reason i would read if a story broke about aol, i know they have reliable reporting. i have been there before. i can get the actual information in a lot of places. i would go there and they have created a community of people who want to go there because they have proven reliable. we're trying to make an argument that we are telling a story you cannot read anywhere else. you can go online and offline this narrative. the way the technology enables us, in this print year, -- era, we want to do things that are longer than magazines and shorter than books. there was no one who dealt with that. in magazine, you do not have that advertising space.

if it is a book, you will not be able to sell it for $25. the platform has enabled you to create a form that was not viable before. it is not an answer to all of the questions about local news. but it is true that rather than looking out the technology as taking away from these older models, they open new doors of people are reading their kindle. millions of people bought them to read books. it has opened a way to reach those readers. >> i have brought this up before

about legislature. when you find out what their work life is like, they are sending out video. there are ways you can get on line and give video of hearings. there is a whole lot of information that we could not get before. he had a radio interview in the quad cities. . he is a very smart guy.

there is kind of an interesting tension here with the challenge of diminished resources and the upside of the technology enabling you to do what people really what we're to get the stuff out fast. it will be interesting to see in the era of personalization where you are spending money on what you think you want. what happens to these lower priority items? the illinois department of children and family services. you cannot imagine many people spend much money to get stuff on arcane subject. it was there once upon a time even if you pick up the paper under way to the lifestyle -- on your way to the lifestyle section or the sports section, you might stumble into that little expose about something else. it will be interesting to see what happens. >> i think about resources a lot. we do more with less people.

i love "the washington post." but there are a lot of people doing a lot of nothing. a very expensive at lot of nothing. you can pare down. we have great health care systems. we have five people versus 25. they are really dedicated and passionate about it. i don't work than any harder than i work when i was a journalist. we broke many stories. we break stories every single day. they have 10 reporters and we have one. are we smarter?

are we working better? the consumers want what they want and that is something you should respect, you can do with law -- a lot less people. i think there were people who will cover the illinois legislature better than some of the old reporters used to. >> it is easier now in the sense that someone who wants to find that can find that. i don't remember when we first met but the first presidential campaign i covered was 1988. i don't know if you are out there then. i had two suitcases, one had closed and one had all the position papers, all the speeches, all the papers of all the candidates and i carried that around. this is the information that we need. as all of us who have covered presidential campaigns know? you go to a whistle stop and a candidate gets up in 20 minutes before they give you the text of the speech. you would be standing there reading it and there will be a rope barrier and actual american citizens will look over and ask where i got that. how could i get one of those? they can't get it because i am doing something exclusive. every voter in america now has access to with more information than we had in the days when we had information that seemed exclusive.

a candidate's website has every speech, every poet -- every position paper. he is blogging, he is tweeting. it is incumbent on citizens to do more. there is more available. >> there are other formats. porpublica -- propublica has won the pulitzer after pulitzer. there are rich people paying for great journals. it is funded by the guy who was editor of "the wall street journal." someone will come up with a different system. media has to become entrepreneurial. it is not like a priesthood or they deserve to be in business. they have to stop complaining about that. you have to try new things and be willing. the consumer has taken control and they are not getting it back in music, movies, entertainment or any part of their lives. how do you fit in with accurate, there, quality journalism? you become entrepreneurial. >> we have only five minutes left. this has been a fantastic panel. i would love each of you to take a couple of minutes and i will

let you talk about what you want to say -- what will the media and journalistic environment look-alike five years from now, 10 years from now? how different will it be? you were actually doing something that is available now. that might seem like a dinosaur in two or three years. as print. look in that crystal ball and say what things will look like five or 10 years from now. >> very quickly -- on the issue of radio -- i am a news junkie. i consume news. i don't know a single dial in this country for npr. i do not know where to find in any city attitude. i know i can always go to npr.org and i can find any story i am looking for. radio has increased because of technology. that is the underlying theme. technology will enhance journalism once some of these corporate institutions of

journalism figure that out and stop fighting it but embrace it. once they figure out the best way to deliver to everyone in this room the three-minute story or the six-minute story about egypt, i am in great shape. i don't care where you watch it or when you watch it, i care that you have a right to watch it and that is the most important thing as a journalist. if your interested in a story about the middle east or sports, you have the right to be able to find it and get to it. my biggest challenge is that people don't necessarily have the choice in the past. if you are being told 22 minutes of what is the most important news story, people will be more engaged in now. they have more information but a greater civic responsibility to be more knowledgeable. that is where reporters come in.

you can see all the youtube video but you will not understand it if you don't have somebody there that you trust and go to regularly. people are more accepting of slightly opinionated news. not your opinion, but these are people who are more polemic and question. are we done enough to think these stories will be that straight forward? you will question it. what are you greasing the wheels for? that is the spirit of the old journalism which has not gone away which will always be there but now you can hear it in so many different platforms. >> let's go around a bullhorn. -- a round of the horn. jim, talk about the future. >> my wife is a pulitzer prize winner on child development and owl broker asked -- and al roker asked her to sum up in 30 seconds childhood education and she did it. i can take out my clay tablet and i think there are some

problems we now face like lack of cooperation. it is almost impossible to reach consensus everywhere. i can be mown some of the potential problems of fragmentation. on a local level, lack of social cohesion is a very complicated matter. there's a lack of sense of community and that is significant. journalists like myself are terrible historians. we too often forget what came before us. steve jobs as a visionary but there will be another one. just like there was an alphabet act clay tablet and a printing press and a satellite, there will be something else which we will harness in intelligence, innovative ways even have guys like me go into that new world

kicking and screaming. i think the technology is so wonderfully powerful as i watch my two-year old fiddle with an ipad. he will never know what a mouse is. as my seven year-old becomes a mini-chess savant playing on the macintosh, there is a wonderfully bright future and we will figure out ways to pay for quality and we will harness this technology and get it to people where they want it. whoever is the stuff is, -- whoever's stuff i its, it will be easily accessible and a golden era potentially is beckoning. >> i second of that.

i completely think technology is the key and all the examples you just gave, at the end of the day, it is about the viewers have been the right to choose and that is my main concern. they need to be empowered to make the choice of how and when and where they consume the journalism. that is never going away because people will always speak in -- inquisitive. they want to be better informed citizenry with choices. >> i am not quite so optimistic. >> that's because you lived next to sarah palin for a year. >> i learned to keep my head down. people have the right to choose and there is so much more to choose from and they tend to choose what reinforces with the already believe. people do not seek out. when sarah palin was elected mayor, she presided over first city council meeting and a friend of hers, somebody who voted for

her, gave her a book at the end of the meeting because she was worried that she was ignorant in so many ways. he gave her the book called "worldly philosophers" to teach her something about economics. she would not even take a book out of his hands. the biographies of the most influential economist. she would not even take a book of his hand. she said, no known no, i never read anything that might challenge my beliefs. i am afraid that this is betting through technology and people who only want to watch fox news that tells them what they believe, people who only want to watch a mess and the sea of going to carry that mindset over to the internet and the wonderful opportunities.

tell me something that i already know is right to strengthen my position. i do not want to have some argue with me through technology. that is my less optimistic point of view. >> you are talking about sarah palin. >> even beyond that. >> five things, media will be promiscuous, more promiscuous than ever. it will be everywhere. it will have to be everywhere and whatever people want to consume it. if you want to print the news, fantastic. promiscuity is very important for me. ubiquity is going to be everywhere. green technology is coming. i was just in korea and saw some technology screens, touchscreens, that react to people in an environment. one of the things that is important is my kid is 5 years

old, would gut a new screen. he touched the screen and it did not do anything. he said the screen is broken. screens have to start interacting with the. it is going to be noisier. it just is. there is no way it is not going to be noisy. you can not panic when it is noisy. quality does rise to the top. people want quality. you do not want that mel. people do care about quality. they do become more ignorant. i do not think people were trying to seek out differences before, i do not.

the most important thing is that you have to be entirely flexible and entrepreneurialism it if you don't, you will not exist. you have to take lessons from steve jobs and silicon valley that failure is ok. it is ok to fail. certain things go way of something else will replace it and you have to get used to that. this is how people are consuming. it is like arguing against cars or highways or something like that. it is hard to argue against them. they have been negative aspects but they have made society better. our federal government has laid down on the job. korea, china -- these other societies place an important part on technology learning and math and science and getting these technologies. we are the highest prices in broadband access for people. i think we are number 26 in terms of quality and speed and everything else. the government has to get involved more heavily in getting this stuff out to everybody in this country at all levels. if we don't, it is like saying that tin cans are good instead

of a telethon. there are roads are fantastic instead of state highways. it is important to get the federal government behind this and they are laying down on the job. it is a critically important part of our future and if we don't get on that, china will run right past us, every country. >> i think everyone has covered it very well. i would follow up on the entrepreneurial point because i think there will be a rise of smaller news entities, literary entities. the technology enables people to reach a large audience, an international audience very quickly and easily if they find the right niche. something like the ipad which has already had a large impact on how people absorb news information is only two years old. it is really at the beginning

of these sorts of things. a lot of small start-ups will start but it is not like "the new york times" will quit printing or shut down. they are on top of things. they know the impact of technology. they coopt things they see and smaller organizations. i think you will see this mix of the rise of new organizations. it is moving a lot faster but i think it is exciting because it enables smaller organizations to do quality work and find an audience. there might be a little bit of a return of the professional writer in the sense that it is possible for individuals to create their own small models and produce their own work wetter -- whether it is direct to kindle or on the web. it is not the same money as a

book advance but it is spreading out and offering new opportunities. it is taking down some of the older publishing or news industry aspects. >> i am incredibly optimistic about the future. i think there'll be more ways of information available. we have to be agnostic about what form it takes. i think there will be new forms that will be created. there will be new kinds of content that will revolutionize the way we think about things someone was saying that their two-year old of swords -- swipes everything they say. we're moving into a new era that is fantastic but we cannot keep looking backward. >> there will be jet packs. >> the lunch hour is beckoning -- can i get a beat -- decent news on salami sandwiches? [laughter]

you have to be promiscuous about it, too. [laughter] >> that is the right way to think. >> the one thing i know about the future of media is that you don't have the incredible content produced by this smart, talented, competent people up on this stage, all is lost. i know that will be true and want to thank you so much for being here. i thought was a fastening panel and i learned a lot and all of you keep doing what you are doing, thank you. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> next, a discussion on eugene debs. the series looks at candidates who lost presidential elections but still changed history. later, house republican leaders agreed to the senate version of the payroll tax cut extension.

>> our featured contender is eugene v. debs -- at the turn of the 20th-century, a five- time candidate for president on the socialist ticket, and the nation's most celebrated world war i protester. this footage captures debs on his return home to terre haute, indiana, following his release from prison by warren harding from charges stemming from those war protests. tonight, we are in terre haute at his home and museum. let me introduce you to our two guests. ernest freeberg's book is called "democracy's prisoner." it has been 85 years since debs died. why do we care about him? >> he was one of our most important labor leaders at a crucial time of the conflict between labor and capital. more importantly, he was the central figure in the socialist movement at a time it was a viable growing part of the american political culture.

>> does he have a lasting legacy? >> i think like many third- party candidates, he and his fellow socialists moved the conversation in very important directions. in that regard, he is of his time but he has also made a lasting impact on us as well. >> we will have time to delve into some of the elections later on. of the five bids he made, are any particularly significant? >> the 1912 bid is the high mark of socialism where he got 6% of the votes. a different election was 1920 where he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got 1 million votes while running from prison. >> in our 90 minute program, "the contenders," we look at

people who made an attempt at the white house and failed, but they had an effect on political and american history. we are live tonight from the debs home in terre haute. it is on the campus of indiana state university. he lived here in this house, he and his wife kate, who lived here for years after he died. we will show you more of the house as we continue here. the top floor of the house has an interesting mural. the mural depicts the years of his public life. throughout our program we will be showing you aspects of the artwork to help illustrate eugene debs' story. let me introduce you to our second guest. she is joining us from what was his bedroom, now is a museum room with a lot of artifacts. lisa phillips -- she is a specialist in labor history. lisa phillips, thank you for being with us.

your thoughts on his significance to the american story. >> i think the significance has to do with this activity in labor unions -- the american railway union and the socialist party as well. he has had a lasting effect on many of the laws that were passed during the progressive era as a result of his activism, some of which we still enjoy. he can tell us a lot about his time period through running for president and through all of his labor union activity as well. >> lisa phillips will be showing us some of the artifacts through the house. she is part of the debs foundation. tell us a little bit about the debs foundation. >> it seeks to keep his legacy alive. it hopes to promote not only the museum, but the policies that eugene debs promoted such as the social justice and equality and the rights of workers.

we try to live through the spirit of his mission. >> as we turn to your expertise, this house and what you showcase here, can you tell me a little bit about how the house is financed and functions? who pays for it? who takes care of it? >> it is paid for by the debs foundation and is cared for by dr. charles king and karen brown. both of them are here in terre haute and run tours of the museum on a daily basis. >> for our viewers, in 10 minutes or so, we will open up phone lines and invite you into the discussion. very interested to hear the questions and discussion about eugene debs and the turn of the 20th century and that period that he represents. let me ask you a little bit about what made him a success. >> many people remember him most of all as a dynamic speaker. this is an era of wonderful

stump speakers that can fill two or three hours with a speech. he was really the best in that genre. in fact, so good he could charge admission for his audience and that is how they funded the socialist campaign in many cases. he was very charismatic and had the ability -- i think he began as a staid victorian speaker but became much more comfortable over the years. he developed a more modern impromptu style that later made an impact on his audience. >> over your shoulder is debs' library. my understanding is that eugene debs dropped out of school at age 14. i am curious about his extensive library and how he educated himself. >> he was very much self-taught. he worked very hard at that.

he began working in the railroad union and was interested in literature there. he worked for a while as a grocery clerk in town. he always wanted more education but had to rely on his own. >> how did terre haute shape eugene debs? >> in many ways. mostly through his upbringing here when he was a younger man. a boy and a young man. he always harkened back to terre haute, and he invoked it all the time in terms of the harmonious relationships that he said developed in old terre haute where everybody could aspire to do something good in their lives, whether it be a business owner, whether you are a worker. everybody had the chance. he always said, in the old terre haute, everybody had the chance to do something and to improve their lives. that is what he held in the most regard. >> when you walk around the house, you can see he was interested in politics from an

early age. he made a bid for clerk in his town and made a successful bid for the indiana legislature on the democratic ticket. his early roots were in two party systems. can you talk about that? >> i can say a little bit which is to say he ran on the democratic party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people whether they be business owners, workers, and he believed the party system in that regard. it was not until later in the 1880's and 1890's that he felt the party system through the democrats and republicans were not working for the best interests of all the people combined. >> when he sought the white house, what was his intention? did he ever really think that he could win? >> he said very clearly he had no intention of ever winning. he was interviewed in 1908 and they said what would it be like for you to be president.

he said if the party ever becomes close to winning, i would be the last person who would want the job or that they would put into the job. he really thought of himself more as an evangelist for the cause. he believed in democracy. i think he was more interested in using the campaigns to generate interest among workers and develop class consciousness to deliver his message very powerfully every four years. >> give us a snapshot of the america he was dissatisfied with. >> there was an enormous concentration of capital. that was the big problem of the time. many people were worried about the labor problem. many workers felt in the face of the rapid industrialization that their skills were less soluble, their wages were being fitted into the international market where they were getting declining wages and a more difficult work environment. there was an enormous sense that labor was deeply unhappy.

eugene debs turned it around and said the problem is not labor, the problem is capital. it is not that the workers are unhappy, the root problem is that these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. >> socialism was on the rise in europe. how was eugene debs doing here different from over there? >> it was similar at first. they considered themselves internationalists. socialism needed to be a worldwide movement. they expected it would be. they felt there were distinctive challenges in america to convince workers to do that. there was a stronger sense of a working class in europe on which to draw for socialist organizing there. one of the struggles for eugene debs throughout his career was to convince workers they should think of themselves not as democrats or republicans, not on the basis of their religious

affiliations, but of members of the working class. >> how successful were he and his fellow thinkers in convincing the public? at the height of his popularity, how much ground that they make? >> it depends on how you measure that. if you measure it on his success, the high water mark was 1912. he got 6% of the vote. >> never any electoral college? >> no. there was a much broader period socialists were much more successful on the local level. there were many socialist mayors. city officials of various kinds. there was a vibrant international socialist society for college students started by jack london. a lot of college campus ferment about socialism. there was a lively press, some of our best in journalism from that time period comes out of the socialist press journals.

socialism was much bigger than counting the votes. >> today in congress, the united states senator bernie sanders from vermont is a socialist. we talked to him about eugene debs' legacy. let's listen to what he had to say. >> a lot of big ideas that he advocated. he talked about when people get old, there should be social insurance for them. there should be retirement benefits for them. that is what we call social security today. amazingly, in 2011 there are those same people that want to destroy social security. he believed health care was the right of all people. that battle continues today. i think it is fair to say that many of the huge advances made during the 1930's under president roosevelt, the great society under lyndon johnson, and throughout, those were ideas that people liked eugene debs probably brought to the

attention. the first person to bring to the attention of millions of working people. >> let me ask you to add your perspective to the america that he saw and was dissatisfied with. ultimately, whether or not he saw himself as anti-american or wanting to change america. >> i do not think he saw himself as anti-american at all. i think he thought he was advocating through his socialist party activity a kind of america that he harkened back to again in the old days of terre haute, one that was more community centered, one that was less big business. in his early days, he was not anti-capitalist at all in his early days. it was not until the advent of big business and corporate capitalism that he felt there had to be a movement toward that profit motive that continued to bring everyday

workers wages down. >> let me ask you -- you have something to add to that? >> i agree with lisa. one of the things that made him so powerful is his ability to cast socialism as an american movement. it was -- this is a revolutionary country in the first place, we fought a revolution for democracy. in his lifetime he experienced the civil war as a revolution. some of his greatest idols were the abolitionists. his argument was the country had fought a battle to overthrow chattel slavery. the next step is to overthrow wage slavery. >> a question for you -- who were his workers? did he include women in his view of it? did he include people other than whites? did he include immigrants? what was his definition, lisa? >> he was one of the first industrial union leaders. he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class

which he believed everybody who was a worker who earned wages, which were two-thirds of americans by 1890 was a part, whether they be an immigrant, black, a woman. so he saw them as all members of a working class that needed to be uplifted in some way, shape, or form. there is controversy to this day about whether he did enough on behalf of women and african- americans. he had some trouble seeing immigrants who came over, especially chinese and italian immigrants, who came over temporarily and worked for a very low wages and brought them back to their home countries as part of the same american working class that was trying to fight for higher wages. he had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling that. as an industrial movement, his was one that recognized the rights of all workers regardless of their backgrounds. >> i understand you have one of the artifact copies of "the

jungle." upton sinclair. what is the significance? >> it is a huge significance. sinclair published it in 1905. he was a member of the socialist party himself. he highlighted all the horrible conditions that meatpackers worked in and the conditions. what really riled up the country were not only the conditions, but also the quality of the meat that was coming out of the plants. he was the one who wrote about rats and people's fingers being caught in the processed meat and how horrible that was. he and eugene debs were supporters of each other. upton sinclair was able to, like debs, demonstrate the problems with the growing of big business. that lead to the revolution of the food and drug administration, the fda.

>> the book actually ends with a scene where he wanders into a socialist meeting and here's a character that is supposed to be eugene debs making a socialist speech. for upton sinclair, that was not food regulations but socialism was the bigger answer. eugene debs is actually right in the book. >> can you tell the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the concept of socialism at that time? >> he was the head of the american railway union which mounted a successful strike against the great northern railroad company in 1893. the aru gained thousands of

members with eugene debs as its head. many of those members were part of the palace car company in 1894. the petition for support when they decided to walk out against george pullman who dropped their wages by 28%. they wanted to walk out and they asked for support. eugene debs was reluctant at first. he thought it was too risky. but the pullman workers had a lot of support not only within the town of pullman which is outside of chicago, but also had a lot of support from railway workers all the way to st. louis. they staged some of the first boycotts or sympathetic strikes along the railway. it became national in scope. as a result of that, president grover cleveland and the clerks got involved and issued an injunction to stop them from

stopping the transport of goods, especially the u.s. mail, along that corridor. grover cleveland got involved. he sent u.s. troops to open up the railway depots that had been shut down as a result of the strike that had been called by the aru. eugene debs ultimately did not call the striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction. he spent three months in prison for being in contempt of court. it was then in prison after the pullman strike that he was introduced to socialist party literature and became a socialist party member and staunch advocate. >> i read a description that he entered prison a changed man for the first time. do you know more about that?

>> i think he did come to the realization that when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike -- when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers that he made it as clear as could be that the two parties were both working against labor and there needed to be an alternative. he did not go right away to socialism. he was involved in the populist party. he was very active initially. when that failed, the socialist party emerged after that. >> our two guests are going to begin bringing you telephone calls into. we will put the phone numbers on the screen. we will mix calls in throughout our 90 minutes here. as we take our first call, we want to give you a sense of

where the house in terre haute is and on the campus. we will show you that via google maps as we listen to our first caller from north carolina. hi, steve. >> please compare eugene debs to william jennings bryan. it seems like they are appealing or trying to appeal to somewhat the same constituency. >> thank you very much. william jennings bryan was a earlier profile. in the election of 1912, how did they compare? >> eugene debs was initially an admirer of him. i think they shared some concerns about reform. i think the crucial difference is eugene debs was really a revolutionary. he not only was interested in reform, reform was necessary but they felt something much

greater was needed. there needed to be an anti- capitalism and public ownership of the means of production. that was a position that clearly distinguished him from bryan's campaign. >> the election was his first try in 1900. william mckinley, william jennings bryan. he got 0.6% of the popular vote that year. do you know what his early appeals were as a candidate and how they changed over his many bids? >> the real challenge for eugene debs was to try to knit together socialists coming from very different positions. one of the strongest hotbeds of socialism was oklahoma. people who had been populous started to develop these socialist camp meetings where they would gather together to hear socialist speeches. eugene debs was a real hero there. they also needed to speak to trade unionists in chicago and

milwaukee to radical bohemians in san francisco, to jewish garment workers on the lower east side. it was a real challenge to find a way to knit together people who all agree on some level that capitalism needed to change fundamentally. they were coming at this from very different positions. it took a while to build the apparatus. >> another election in 1908 which involved william jennings bryan. he began to understand some early marketing. he had some campaign tactics like the red train special and the red special ban. can you tell us a little more about that? >> 1908 was a critical year because of the ascendance of the popularity of the labor party -- the socialist party and the federation of labor and other labor unions. his message appealed to

increasingly more people from a diverse amount of backgrounds. the red special would have been a good unifying symbol to use to unite what were very different groups of people who were working on farms or in urban areas. it meant to his supporters a challenge to big business, a challenge to capitalism. they would have called it big business or monopolies in that period. that is what red would have meant in the 1908 election. it was a good way to unify people with just the use of the red special. >> this is a caller named randy. welcome. >> thank you. i just wanted to give you background. my grandfather voted for eugene debs in his election. as i went through school, we

never heard of eugene debs. it seems like one thing that is really lacking in our education system is labor history. the fact that people -- many people died for those benefits. they were not gifts. people were literally killed and beaten and jailed for the right to have unemployment insurance. what the neo-fascists that are now running on the republican party want is -- it seems like to re-establish that message more than ever. we are in a critical point in history where if we are not careful we could go towards fascism. i think his message now is more important than ever. >> a question for you before you go. i am asking you if you talked to your grandfather about eugene debs. which election did he actually

vote in? >> the last election i believe was the 1916 election. >> that would be 1920. >> 1916 was the year he sat out i believe. thank you, randy. first of all, why did he sit out in 1916? >> he was in ill health. i think he only ran in 1920 because of the unusual circumstances. he felt it was time to pass on the baton of the movement to somebody else. he did run for congress in indiana. he did not feel up to the red special. he was giving 15 speeches a day and would come back exhausted to terre haute and collapse in one of the bedrooms upstairs. he would spend weeks trying to recover. 1916 he decided to sit out.

>> randy's comments are probably amusing to your ears about the lack of teaching of labor history. you keep the college level. i am wondering what you think about teaching of labor history to america's students. >> of course, i would say it should be taught more than it is. i think there is so much we can learn about working people, about all of us who work every day and try to make ends meet and value them by teaching their history is very important. it gives us a very different perspective on what it means to fight for some of those rights that the caller was mentioning and not take them for granted. as hard-fought as they were fought for, they can be easily taken a way. we need to really teach those struggles and how difficult it was so we do not take for granted the benefits that we received as a result of them. >> in the early part of the

20th century, was there a middle class? >> yes. a large part of corporate capitalism generated a much larger middle-class. >> of the people he represented, would they be part of the middle-class or enlist the working class? >> there was a large number of middle-class supporters. they went to his meetings expecting to see just working class. people were surprised to find that actually many of the most important writers and political thinkers we can think of from that time period were either members of the socialist party are very sympathetic to their agenda. he considered it a working- class movement, but it had a strong leadership component from the middle class. >> and in 1900, would it be dangerous to call yourself a socialist in the united states? were the authorities watching you in any way?

>> no, there were particular incidents to be involved as a socialist and a particular strike environment was a problem. there was some conflicts over the rights of soapbox speakers. they were big believers of bringing their message to the street. sometimes there were clashes with the police. as far as persecution of the socialists, they were very much a part of the political conversation. >> when did the public at large begin to become more suspicious about intentions? >> when socialists started to get a lot of votes, that started the conversation. in 1908 and 1912, teddy roosevelt called eugene debs one of our most undesirable citizens, an apostle of bloodshed and anarchy. there was a sense that the forces of moderate opinion were

needed to push back against socialism rhetorically. it was not until world war i that the gloves really came off and socialism was physically and legally assaulted >> next is a caller named cal from manhattan. >> hello. i am loving the series. thank you for this series. it is really fascinating history. just off the bat, there are a couple of things that strike me and hopefully your guests can comment on one or the other. one is the grievances against the growing capitalism, strangling the rights of the people as it was thought of then as it is now. as you know, we have these protests in lower manhattan that seems to have part of its platform -- some of the same grievances as i understand them. also, the idea of the organization -- the mechanics of the organization of the

movement. occupy wall street is receiving criticism because they are making a deliberate attempt not to have a specific platform or agenda or a list of grievances. maybe you can talk about the mechanics of organizing a movement as eugene debs and who might have inspired him in his life with things he might agree with. thanks for the series. >> let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grievances against capitalism. >> his grievances was monopoly. corporate capitalism he had the most trouble with. that is why he thought an overthrow of corporate capitalism was in order. his grievances against them was the accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few and controlling what he argued were combinations of corporations

and business owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy. that is what he was clearly against. what he advocated were labor unions with similar groups of workers that could work together to break the monopolies that corporate entities have been forming with each other to control many aspects of the economy at the time. people argue that our time period is very similar to eugene debs' time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. the mechanics that he used to organize them. >> i think that is a very interesting question. it is the case, one of the things that made socialism work in the way it has not worked since is their talent for organizing. their willingness to attend a

lot of meetings and to develop a separate independent press. they were very strong critics in a way that sounds very modern and about the influence of big money on newspapers. they very much believed that there was no way people were going to hear the worker's side of the store or their side of the stories if they did not create their own alternative press. that was crucial. eugene debs was the exciting person who blew into town and rallied the troops. it really involves a grass- roots progress and the attempt to win on a local level. the presidency was out of reach, but it was not impossible to get on a city council. >> to think about the time period, this was even before radio began. politics for americans and those days meant what in their

lives? was it an activity to fill the evening in ways we do not appreciate today? >> sure. this was a period of enormous party loyalty. it was starting to fade -- >> also socialism. people would gather in the evening and listen to speeches. now we have lots of media in our lives and that sort of thing. >> there were many more newspaper sources, and they were much more barbed and polemical. political unions have their own press. there was a much more complicated mix available to people in a print. >> while we are talking about media, will you talk about a publication for which eugene debs wrote frequently called "the appeal to reason"? >> sure. my earpiece came out for just a second. this is "the appeal to reason." it became the newspaper of the socialist party in 1901.

it is one of the publications, many newspapers that would have existed in that time period where people would find out as much information as they could. upton sinclair's book, the first time it was published was here in "the appeal to reason." many authors of the period would have written in this socialist party newspaper. >> i would like to read to you a statement that eugene debs made. after the 1912 election, he sent it by telegraph to be published with the results of the election. he wrote "it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote.

now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. we are the only ones who came out with colors flying. the socialist party from now on is the party of the people. this young giant will make history in the next few years. soon after the democrats lose power, they will feel helplessness and thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in disgust." how was he as a prognosticator? >> that was a poor prediction. it began to fall right after that in terms of membership and never recovered the peak. >> why? >> one of the reasons was the wilson administration did just the opposite of what debs predicted. it brought in a slate of reforms. hour controls for 8 hour day for railroad workers, some regulation of the banking system, some gesture for the

right of unions to organize. these were only small steps toward what the socialists wanted, but enough to win along voters. >> let's take our next telephone call. it is from portland, new york. this is sharon. >> i want to thank c-span for the wonderful series. i am enjoying it so much. i am wondering if your guests might comment on his early life, his formative years, and what his parents did for a living. thank you very much. >> thank you. would you like to take that? >> do you know, i am not exactly sure i can remember what his father did for a living. they lived in terre haute. i know he was a great idealist. debs himself -- his middle name is after victor hugo. it was a big part of his upbringing.

>> i was just remembering that his father was kind of a processor of pork. he was ill. he could not do that work. there are reminiscences of him being depressed as a worker. his wife -- they had two small children. she was pregnant with eugene debs. they opened a small grocery in the front of their house. he became a successful small grocer in terre haute. his dad was a grocer. one of eugene debs' first jobs was an accountant for the home and grocery line. he had experience with the family business. that enabled him to do that work. that was where his family's income came from. >> why did he have to drop out of school at age 14?

>> as i recall, i think it was not common for people to finish high school. he wanted to get a job on the railroad. the railroads were the newest and exciting thing for young men to get a part of. his first job was a paint scraper for the local railroad that was running through terre haute. it was later owned by william keene. he was a paint scraper first. it was an exciting job in an era where people commonly did not finish high school. >> can either of you tell us about his marriage? >> that was always a source of controversy in the movement. he was deeply loyal to kate debs. it was pretty clear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congressman and not as a socialist.

she has often spoken in favor of socialism publicly but not enthusiastically. she probably would have been happier if he had not pursued that life. it also kept him on the road most of the time. eugene debs was back in terre haute mostly to collapse upstairs and recover before he headed out on another campaign. she was left keeping the home fires burning in this house. >> so kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are in this house in terre haute. >> with these down and out railroad workers knocking on the door and hoping they could see their hero. >> did they have children? >> no. >> you said he traveled extensively and she chose not to do that? or was she not invited to come along? >> no. i don't know. >> let's take our next phone call.

this is tom. here we are in your home town. have you been to this house? >> no, i have not. i work two blocks away from there so i have no excuse. thank you for a fantastic series. i would just like to make a quick comment because there are so many people across america who would love to be calling. i lucked out to do it. i want to say this. when the unions and socialism came about because of the lack of benevolent employers -- i want to make one point. i live in colorado. i call on the mines of colorado. i used to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25. i would pass a town called ludlow. i would ask ms. phillips if she knows anything about the ludlow massacre. i am not sure when it happened.

i am sure eugene debs was alive at the time. i will hang up now. please ponder what i have said, you moguls of america. we need jobs and we need them now. could you please tell us a little bit about the ludlow massacre in colorado? >> the ludlow massacre and several other massacres and riots of the time period were often blamed on the striking workers at the time whether they were miners or whether they were protesting for their rights. what happened in ludlow that happened in other incidents is there would be federal troops or authorities brought in to quell the protest in workers.

many of them would be killed. i cannot remember how many people died there, but in haymarket and other riots, in the homestead strike, several people would be killed. striking workers would be blamed for protesting. that is a reason why the knights of labor went by the wayside because they were blamed for the haymarket riot that caused the deaths of several people. it was an incident to where striking workers were killed and where people -- the strikers themselves were blamed unfortunately for that. i think to get to the caller's original point, what eugene

debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. he had been friends with some that owned the railroad that came through there who he supported when they had the best interest of terre haute in mind. it was when they brought in what they called heavy capitalists, and when they tried banking relationships with people out east that eugene debs started to break his ties with smaller business terre haute owners in terre haute and started criticizing them toward their need for profit. it was not small business that he originally was against. it was the for-profit motive that drove those small businessmen to become business moguls and create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre when they think they had no other choice but to strike. >> were the socialists all

across the united states or was it a regional phenomenon? >> no, it was all across the united states. here in the midwest, also out west -- especially with the western federation of miners -- they were big supporters of the socialist party. they were mostly out west, oklahoma, the midwest, places like new york on the east coast were the strongholds of the socialist party. they grew support from rural americans, from urban areas like chicago and new york, from western coal miners. they drew support from lots of people who were similarly negatively affected by this rise of corporate capitalism. >> did you have a thought you wanted to add? >> i think rather than moving toward more benevolent employers, i don't think he believed that was possible at this point.

rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to small-scale capitalism, socialists were interested in arguing that business will get bigger and bigger. the important thing is for it to be run by the people rather than individuals for private gain. this was a much more radical proposition as a way to solve the problem. there were many of people including capitalists who were engaged in trying to soften the hard edges of the industrial revolution that was going on. andrew carnegie with his gospel of wealth suggested that there needed to be more benevolent moguls. eugene debs said that is not the problem. we need to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. >> we are following eugene debs at his home in terre haute in our series, "the contenders." we will look at 14 men who tried for the presidency and

lost, but changed american history. we have 90 minutes tonight to learn more about this period of time. his five runs for the presidency were from 1900 until 1920. our two guests are here. our next phone call is from annandale, virginia, outside of washington. this is john. >> hi. wonderful program. thanks to c-span. i was intrigued by the comment that teddy roosevelt said that eugene debs was the most dangerous man in a america or something to that effect. teddy roosevelt himself is known as a trustbuster, as breaking up standard oil. it seemed that they would have some things in common. i wondered if your guest could comment on that. >> very good question. roosevelt said, we need to take the sane part of the eugene debs and adopt it, with him and

his interest and taking over private industry and try to run it democratically. this was a crazy idea that would undermine one of the pillars of american democracy with private property and free enterprise. on the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern among workers as well as the middle-class about the problems of big business. roosevelt argued that it was important to take the good ideas, the things that we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways that we have been talking about and to adopt those. these became an important part of his progressive party platform. they were part of the reform agenda for the wilson administration. he said eugene debs was to stir

up class workers against their masters in a sense. what he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way without socialism. >> do you have more to add on that question? >> i might be remembering this wrong. i do not think teddy roosevelt supported nationwide strikes that happened with pullman. that seemed very dangerous to presidents who were in charge of making sure the country ran smoothly. any time you saw a case where there was a strike by a national labor union that disrupted the growth of something as crucial as mail, that would put them on opposite sides of the divider and how strong you should be in order to stop business from functioning.

>> another topic altogether to understand socialist thinking in the early 20th century, what about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion? >> a very large number of socialist were religious, especially in the south and in oklahoma, texas, there was a strong party there. it was a very strong movement in what was called the social gospel or social christianity. many of those people were supporters of eugene debs. he considered churches to be the enemy, sort of part of the apparatus of press workers -- particularly the catholic church. he claimed never to go into a church. many christians felt that he and his humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified just a tremendous number of

people over the course of his career said, i don't know what he believes, but he is the most christlike person that i know. his compassion for the underdog is the essence of christianity. this is an important distinction between the eugene debs movement and the communist movement that comes after it. not everybody in the socialist movement was a believer by any means, but it was something where that was an important part of the mix. >> if you signed your name into a card that said you were a member of the socialist party in this time period, what does that mean the core of your beliefs were? >> that the most important struggle was a struggle between the working class and the owning class. this was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class as a necessary

next step and the evolution of history and for american socialists i think a necessary next step to realize or protect the principles of the american revolution and the dignity of individuals, embodied in their ability to participate fully in the economy. >> so they thought of themselves as patriots. we have touched on thathe spoked also some of the founding fathers in his writings. he saw himself as an extension of early roots of american history. >> defining the important movers and shakers as being radicals, history is driven forward by people -- he would point back to jesus, to socrates, to thomas jefferson, john brown, wendell phillips. history moves forward by people who start off with an idea that seems deeply unpopular, but that is the next step for moral

revolution. >> this is chris on the line. >> thank you for the conversation. it is a great surprise to see on television tonight. i was wondering if you could comment on the relationship with industrial workers of the world and with the general strike in seattle. >> he was a founding member of the iww that started in 1905. they were a clearly industrial union movement. it was juxtaposed against the american federation of labor which is more of a craft skills worker based union. the iww was a movement among the working class of people. in its size, it is not as

nationalistic. it sought to work with workers in other countries. spain, france, italy, and it is a part of -- it never came to be, but they saw themselves as part of the workers' movement with fighters fighting worldwide in not just in the united states. it was eugene debs' later interpretation of what had to be done to promote the rights of workers not only in the united states but in other places in the world as well. >> was he affiliated with them throughout his life? >> no, there was a split -- it was kind of complicated. there was a split in the iww or the socialist party -- there was a split in the socialist party that affected the iww. he remained very much -- he supported the iww but took less of a leadership position.

haywood took over the iww plan and took it in a different position. >> i think one of the most important breaks was over the issue of violence or sabotage. this was a tough bunch in a very tough environment working in mines and lumber fields. they argued that there were times in order to advance their cause, they needed to use sabotaging or other forms of violence to fight back. >> did eugene debs agree with that? >> he did not agree with that. he was not a pacifist. he recognized there were times when he needed to use violence, but he felt the strategy of advocating violence was not

appropriate for american democracy and workers all was lost when they tried violence. most of the power to spread violence belonged to the state. >> next up is minneapolis. hi, ken. >> thank you c-span for this wonderful series. i work in public radio. a little bit earlier your scholars were talking about eugene debs and media. in new york city, there is or was a famous radio station named wevd, named for eugene debs that debuted in the early 1920's. it was one of the first non- commercial listeners supported radio stations. given his name in the call letters, i am wondering if he

had any involvement with the radio station. >> thank you. his demise was in 1926, radio just beginning to come on the scene as a median. did he -- >> as far as i know, it is an homage to him, but he had no connection. >> lisa, we only have 35 minutes left already. this program is going by quickly. a question for you about eugene debs if you can answer it, if he were to walk in this room -- we are surrounded by images all over. can you give us a sense about how tall a man he was. was he slight? give us the personal glimse of him if you can. >> as far as i know, i think he was 6 foot 2 inches or 6 foot 3 inches, i am not sure if that is correct. >> that is about right. >> he was very thin. he was lanky. you can see that in the pictures.

he was that way from his youth on. he was a commanding figure, but not burly i guess you could say. >> he told me he was an advocate of the temporary eating fads of the day. early holistic health. can you tell us a little about that? >> he was often ill. it was hard to pin down what the problem was. some have suggested that it was a nervous exhaustion from the hard campaigns. the stress that he was under. he would often retreat to try to recover. he would find himself to the sanitariums where he would experiment with walnuts and a ketchup diet and sleeping with his head oriented toward the north and these sorts of things. he would write letters back to his brother suggesting that these things were working out great for him. >> switching gears here in our time period as the nation began to march toward world war i,

what happened to the labor movement as all of this tur ng these big decisions about its role in that? >> when the war first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and otherwise, were very determined to keep out war. they were isolationists, especially in the midwest. in the south, they said god give us the atlantic ocean for a very good reason. that is to not get involved in the european war. very large immigrant groups were divided about the conflict overseas, but did not want to participate helping the other side. there was a strong push for neutrality and initially really until things escalated out of control. wilson himself was elected a

second term campaigning that he kept the country out of war. that he was a negotiator for peace. just weeks after being elected for a second term, he began to move the nation toward war. >> i want to show all of our viewers your book because we're getting into your subject area. >> in 1917, congress passed a law about speech about the war. will you tell our viewers what the law was? >> it is called the espionage act, and actually was never used to convict any spies during the war. there were german spies. much of the law dealt with that. there were also provisions that allowed for the government to have enormous control over dissent. the postmaster was given the power to ban any publication not considered supportive of the war. anyone who was deemed to say anything that was discouraging

of the war effort was liable to a $10,000 fine and 10 to 20 years in prison. >> first amendment challenges all over this. >> debs was one of the important test cases. about 1200 people were convicted under this espionage act. >> and went to prison? >> and were sent to prison. the supreme court unanimously supported it at that point. >> he began to be anti-war at what point? >> he was not a pacifist. there is a class struggle where it might make sense to take up arms. he considered the war in europe to be a clash between competing empires over colonies and the

only people that would benefit -- there was a lot of money to be made, but the working people were going to suffer. that was the socialists' position. when the war broke out, when wilson and congress moved to war, the socialists gathered a few days later in st. louis and passed a proclamation vowing that they were going to fight the war rhetorically in every possible way. a number of socialists broke from the party at that point. upton sinclair felt as if that was the wrong move. others worried that the party would be destroyed by this. it would be labeled unamerican. >> we will take a call from nashville, tennessee. your question, please. >> thank you for your discussion tonight.

>> thank you for watching. >> unfortunately, socialism means there is a group involved in the central planning of our economy or society. that leads itself to a small group to decide how citizens should behave. socialism, wonderful in its ideals, it does not actually exist. i believe that james madison described it correctly. we are in competition with each other.

that is what leads to individual freedom. it just leads to someone in a small group [unintelligible] >> that was not too far off from his position. he was arguing that the central planners of his day were the large business owners. they had a lot of political power and influence and were the central planners of the economy. he would have been with you on that. he wanted there to be a more diverse group of people, working people, who had a role in the planning of the economy

and how wealth was distributed. he was against the central planning that was being done by very wealthy americans and business owners. >> in the interest of time, we were talking about the draft, but i want to go on to his position on the draft and his famous speech in ohio. it was the speech that ended up having debs arrested -- "the working class that shed their blood did not have a voice and either declaring war or making peace. yours is not a reason why, yours is but to do and die. when he made that speech, did

he know that he was going to jail? >> he had to know that it was likely. he knew that there were federal agents, stenographers taking down what he had to say. i think he gave a number of speeches along the same lines and had not been arrested. he said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say. i know that i am being watched. the audience fully understood the situation. he spent a lot of time in that speech announcing the fact that many of his comrades were already in prison. if they are guilty, i am guilty, he said. >> what was the trial like? was it a big national event? >> it certainly was. he got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism. in front of a national audience. his lawyers hope to get him off on a technicality. there were also making a very strong free speech argument in

his defense. he felt the system was rigged and in the pockets of big business. it was more important for him to take this opportunity to win a propaganda coup for socialism. >> he ultimately was sentenced to 10 years. >> it is hard to say that he got a break. he was an older man and not in good health. when he went off to prison, many people assumed that if we did not get out, he would have died. >> about 20 minutes left -- we are going to take a couple of calls and talk about his 1920 campaign. oklahoma, donna, go ahead, please. >> i am so happy to hear this program. i cannot tell you how grateful i am to have this over the air. a little comment about colorado.

i have a very good friend and she talked about her parents being part of what happened there. i was going on a road trip with my son, she told me to look for a sign just north of trinidad. all it will say is "this is the place." the second thing i would like to say is about upton sinclair. upton sinclair was arrested for reading the constitution to the dock workers. that began the southern california aclu.

i have moved back to oklahoma, i been gone for about 50 years. i lived here as a teenager. i went to a labor rally in support of the wisconsin public employees. a friend of mine sat next to me with a little sign in latin. she told me that it was the oklahoma state motto. it was from a socialist desire. labor conquers all. now we are the reddest state in the union, which is kind of an ironic thing. >> thank you for your comments. we will take a telephone call from eric in los angeles. >> i also am enjoying the

program. i think that eugene v. debs tried to keep us to our ideals. my question is about job harriman, a christian socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900. later, he was involved with the trials of the mcnamara brothers, who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause. i know that debs defended in print the mcnamaras. >> is this a period of his life that you can fill us in on? >> i do not know enough about it. i do know that clarence darrow was a big part of using the defense in 1894.

i do not know enough about job harriman to comment on his involvement. >> debs did not intend to justify the dynamiting of the building. it was the center of a tremendous anti-labor, anti- socialist at that point. he believed that the mcnamaras were innocent. much of his defense of them was based on believing that this was a false charge. >> the second sentencing was under the espionage act. he made a speech at his sentencing. he went to prison and in the

1920 campaign -- which he decided to take part in. can you tell me how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta? >> he was not allowed. it was an awkward situation for the federal government because he was a seditionist. they allowed him to give a little speech, the socialists did. then the government allowed them only to campaign by submitting eight 500-word letters to the press over the course of the campaign. he was spending the campaign

relying on his party to go out and spread the word. >> it is very small, what does it say? >> it says, "convict for president." it is one of the most famous campaign buttons in u.s. history. >> he managed to garner nearly 1 million votes. how did he do that? >> he did that because he had such a national following. it was 1920, and he had been in the national newspapers for many years. people knew of his message. labor unions continued to support him. despite the fact that he was accused of encouraging people not to enlist in the military

during world war i, he still had a following. they believed in his message. he did that because of his national reputation. >> what were some of the other themes of the 1920 campaigns? >> this is a vote for free speech. this was an opportunity for all americans to cast a vote in protest against the wilson administration. not just socialists, but pacifists of all kinds. during war fever, many americans who thought maybe that

was a good idea, started to reconsider that. there were supported by a small group of people who became the american civil liberties union. there were only about 100,000 socialists by this point. i think the number is something in the 20 or 30,000. he got 1 million votes. some of those people were socialists, but a lot of those people were voting for free speech. >> indiana, this is dave. >> how are you? >> great, thanks. do you have a question about one of your famous citizens? >> i am a graduate of indiana state university. what was his impact on the university?

did debs have an influence on the development of the university? >> i do not know, and that is a great question. i do not know if eugene v. debs had any kind of influence on indiana state. i am curious not to find out. >> syracuse, new york, go ahead, please. >> i am a uaw worker from upstate new york. you got the socialist party and had the socialist workers party and you had the american federation of labor. you never had a unified workers' movement in this country. that was his problem.

he was never able to achieve this goal. thank you very much. >> the caller is absolutely right. debs was after a working-class movement where you erase the lines that divided skilled workers from unskilled workers. the american federation of labor was very tightly organized. it was a very different kind of approach towards representing

working-class interest. they did not see eye-to-eye continuing into the 1930's. >> debs campaigning for president can 1920. why did wilson say no? >> it is a little complicated. wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems. as a way to clear the air. he had a stroke. he seemed to lose his moral compass, many people felt. this was an obvious gesture of goodwill that he might make. he heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that debs was a traitor. he was the embodiment of that dissent.

>> was there a movement to keep debs in jail? >> they said this was their priority number one. the ku klux klan was emerging at this point and they considered debs and the other radicals that it was important that they stay in prison. there was a lot of pressure on the president. not a lot of political gain, in his judgment, to release. >> how did he secure an early release? >> wilson left office and the process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren harding. people in the amnesty movement were a lot less optimistic. harding was a republican who seemed to have less motivation. there were plenty of socialists

that supported wilson. harding, he campaigned on the idea of returning the country to a pre-war normalcy, to stop these tensions. the amnesty movement was not just the election, but it was a huge movement. there were petitions being gathered on the streets all across the country. they would have to bring the petitions in on the back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. many people from across the united states -- george bernard shaw, hg wells, helen keller -- many people were involved in this movement to get the prisoners out. for harding, he had no interest in inheriting this mess. he waited a little while, and

then he let him out of prison. >> he invited him to the white house. >> that is right. >> and he went? >> yes. what do we know about that meeting? >> neither one of them said anything about it. it was a christmas afternoon meeting, i guess. debs said, harding seems like a very nice man. i believe he said, you know, the president asked me to cut down on my rhetoric, but i have no intention of doing that. he got back on the train. >> you are looking at some rare footage. debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media after his meeting with the president. he lived until 1926.

we have about 10 minutes left. let's get a couple of calls. michigan, james, you are on the air. >> is it ok if i ask two questions? >> go ahead. >> let's move on, please. our time is short. our next call is from charleston, south carolina. >> i want to know if you think the movement could exist in modern day america with the development of global capitalism? what do you think debs would think about the tea party movement? thank you. >> this is always a tough thing, for historians to project what the character might think

today. >> it needs to be done with real caution. global capitalism is not something new. that was very much an issue with the flow of immigrants and worldwide nature of capitalism. we overstate the global nature of the economy that we live in now. as far as the tea party goes, lisa? >> he would not have been in agreement with the tea party support of big business. that is the simplest way i can put it. i do not know -- his message still resonates with us today. we're still facing some of the same problems that he was fighting against as a result of workers' wages being driven down by the policies of multinational corporations.

not just in the u.s., but worldwide. he would've had a lot to say about the same types of things that had escalated from his period until today. i am sure he would be against the negative impact of multinational corporations globally. >> you have a final artifact for us. look at the size of those. why don't i have you help us finish out our program? how is he viewed by the labor movement today? how do they look back on his time and his contribution? >> i just attended a banquet last week put on by the debs foundation. danny glover was in attendance. everybody remembers him for

being a spokesperson for the working class. he continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond. >> as we think about his final years, i was showing you "time" magazine, the 1926 obituary. here is what they wrote. a month ago, he went to a sanitarium, where he died, at age 71. what were his final years like after prison? how important a voice was he in the last few years? >> he spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party.

that was both a self-inflicted wound because the socialist party had a bitter split over communism. it was very difficult thing for him. the communists were trying to convince him to join them. he was the country's most famous, most high-profile and beloved radical and the communists wanted very much to have him on board. he was very enthusiastic about the bolshevik revolution, but he refused to sign on with the communists, objecting to the idea of a dictatorship and to some of the methods of the bolsheviks. he was left with half of a party. much of the young energy had gone into the communist party. meanwhile, the party had been smashed by legal attacks, as

well as mob attacks during the war. he tried to rebuild the party those years without a whole lot of success. >> he is buried here in indiana. we have some video of his grave site and we will look at that as we listen to our next caller from new york city. >> what was eugene v. debs's view on the russian revolution? can you separate socialism from marxism during this time period? >> he did not visit russia. there was an attempt to get him to go to russia. the bolsheviks considered him to be an american hero. he was an admirer of the bolshevik revolution. in spite of all he had

experienced, he still believed in american democracy and still believed the way forward for american workers was to organize in unions and to support the socialist party. >> it is great to have people locally participating. this is todd. >> i would like to thank you for this program. for lisa, who i understand is a member of the foundation, i would like her to address his continuing legacy toward equality and social justice and let people know how they might pursue their interests if they want to know something more

about it. >> certainly. in this age of technology, there is a web site devoted to the foundation. that is an easy way to access more information. he continues to provide inspiration to working people. >> this house is open for visitors. how many do you get every year? >> i do not know the numbers and how many people we have every year. the museum is open every afternoon of the week. and on saturdays. you can go to the website and contact karen brown, who runs tour of the museum throughout the week. >> we have one minute left. >> another great resource is the indiana state university. they have pamphlets and access

to his letters. >> the book is about eugene v. debs and his campaign for president in 1920. thank you to both of you as we close out. telling us more about this third-party five-time pursuer of the white house. as we close out, some thank you's to the foundation. debsfoundation.org is their website. thank you to all of you for helping us put this program together. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011]

♪ >> with the the iowa caucuses and new hampshire primary next month, the contenders looks back at 40 men that ran for president at a loss, but had a long- lasting impact on politics. friday, charles evans hughes, chief justice of the united states. if then on saturday, al smith and a member of the liberal wing of the gop, wendell willkie. then thomas e. dewey.

>> house republican leaders agreed to the seine at's two- month version of the payroll tax cut extension. republicans and democrats will meet in the new year for a joint house-and senate conference to negotiate a full- year deal. the announcement next on c-span. then, republican presidential candidate mitt romney and his rival candidate newton gingrich in new hampshire talking. >> tomorrow, a conversation on religion, ethics, and the 2012 campaign. peter wehner joins us. then an update on the iran's nuclear programs in last year's arms treaty with russia. later, a roundtable discussion on child care challenges in the u.s.. our guests are lynda laughlin of

the u.s. census bureau and kevin miller from the women's policy research. now, house speaker john boehner announcing the payroll tax agreement with featured democrats. -- with senate democrats. this is under 10 minutes. >> good evening, everyone. senator harry reid and i have reached an agreement on the payroll tax relief on behalf of the american people. key parts of these agreements are that on a january 1 no american worker will see an increase in their taxes. we will ensure that a new complex reporting burden is not unintentionally imposed on

small businesses. this solution will prevent small businesses very new administrative burdens and ensure that american workers will see their tax relief as soon as possible. the senate will join the house and immediately deported conferees with instructions to reach an agreement on the full one year payroll tax cut deduction along with unemployment reforms and an extension of unemployment and the so-called topics for two years. its members will work to complete the one year extension that all of us want. we will ask the house and senate to approve this agreement by unanimous consent before christmas. middle-class families and small businesses are struggling.

they are making sacrifices. i think this agreement will help our economy. one important provision that i want to highlight is the keystone pipeline. this project would create tens of thousands of jobs in our country. in this jobs project has bipartisan support in the house and senate. i hope the president will approve this pipeline to put those americans to work. i want to thank our members, particularly our conferees that have remained here in the capital with the holidays approaching for their efforts to enact a full-year extension of the payroll tax cut for working families. under this agreement, we will do that as quickly as possible. i do not think there is any tempers' celebration. our economy is struggling and there is a lot of work ahead of us in the coming year. i want to wish the american

people a very merry christmas and a happy new year. >> de you have assurances that nobody will object on the house side that you have everybody in line? "i do not know that. our goal is to do this by unanimous consent. >> there are a lot of folks who are saying you take on this. -- caved on this. did you cave in considering the fallout, is this the worst week under your leadership? >> sometimes it is hard to do the right thing. sometimes it is politically difficult to do the right thing. when everybody call for a one- year extension of the payroll tax deduction, when everybody wanted a full year of extended unemployment benefits, we were here fighting for the right things. it may not have been politically the smartest thing in the world, but let me tell you -- i think our members which they could fight. -- waged a good fight.

we were able to fix what came out of the senate. all year you have heard me talk about a short-term extensions, short-term gimmicks and the consequences they have for our e economy. when you look at this, it is another short-term extension. this creates uncertainty for job creators. i used to run a small business. i know how this works. kicking the can down the road for a couple of months does cause problems. when you look at the reporting requirement that came out of this bill because it was hastily put together, it was a big burden for businesses of all sizes. >> i know on saturday there was a link the open mike sessions. was that i decide not to have that this time. one member who i spoke with said you had been hung out to dry by the leadership because

people were not allowed to speak this type. >> i did not set up conference calls. we have a lot of members with a lot of opinions. we have fought the good fight. i talk to eat enough members over the last 24 hours. -- i talked to enough members of the past 44 hours to say they do not like this two month extension and the reporting problem in the senate bill. if you can get this fixed, why not do the right thing for the american people even though it is not exactly what we want to? >> if somebody objects and it will not passed by unanimous consent, will you bring the house back for a vote next week? >> absolutely. >> given the whole last week and we have seen so often after fop and news topics on both sides, democrats are really charging that the radical two-

party element of house republicans are to blame for this. do you think the whole fight was worth it? the you think you guys ended up getting a good compromise? >> doing the right thing for the right reasons is always the right thing to do. while everyone asks for a full year of extensions of these programs, a lot of people were not willing to put the effort and has the holidays were approaching to get it done. our members were. i am proud of the efforts they have put into this. it is not always easy to do the right thing. we believe that we came here to change the way this town does business. no more gimmicks, no more short-term this or that. it is time to do solid policy. it is time to do it the right way. thank you.

>> after the deal was reached, the white house released a statement from president obama that read in part, "for several weeks i have stated that it was critical for congress not to go home without preventing a tax increase on working americans. i congratulate members of congress for ending the partisan stalemate by reaching an agreement." you could read the entire statement at c-span.org. republican presidential candidate mitt romney is on the "earn it" tour. he was in the town of bethlehem at the littleton elks lodge. it is in the northwest part of new hampshire.

announcement to make. >> this is my bride. >> you have a young one. >> thank you, good morning. how are you, nice to see you. i don't mean to have all you guys standing up this morning. nice to meet you, thank you. nice to meet you, sir. i am just fine, i appreciate your help. nice to see you. appreciate you stopping by this morning. do you have school? are you getting your degree? that is a long way away. back for the holidays? what is your subject of study? physics, i love it. we will find it.

good to see you, thank you. how are you this morning? thank you. >> all over the state. >> thank you guys. it is good to see you. good to meet you this morning, how are you, sir? >> i followed you to both places. >> we are not that way. the and of the senator? is that your tradition? there we go. >> a christmas tie. >> i have to check it out here. mountains, presence, the whole thing. thanks, center. senator.entce how're you doing this morning?

thank you for stopping by this morning. when are you going to get snow? >> there is nothing on my roof, no santa claus. >> you will be slip sliding all over the roof. good morning. come over here and say hi to some young people. are you guys in college? where in college? in maine? back for the holidays? good to meet you. you are helping pay for this? and the allowance? what do you study? >> accounting. >> you will get a job coming out. how about yourself? >> education. >> that is tougher.

can you go to other parts of teaching as well? >> coaching, teaching. >> good luck to you. the same age? >> i am a junior. >> i am a senior. >> these tuitions are about to be over. this is my wife. good to me you. >> i am fine, thanks. nice to meet you. >> good to meet you both. thank you. could this see you again. -- good to see you again.

what is your name? >> bill. i heard you speak in cambridge, i was standing in the back of the room. >> it has been a while, that was probably 94. from cambridge? isn't that something. >> they built appear almost 50 years ago. >> we have not gone by the mt. yet on this trip. >> welcome. >> nice to see you both. the leaves.

>> we used to live in massachusetts, we voted for you. >> we voted for you this time, and if you are really good, we will vote for you again. >> we have over 100 artists and 4500 square feet. we do things a little differently. we charge a little bit of rent anywhere from $25 to $75 a month and only a 10% commission to cover transaction costs. so prices are staying low and people are buying more. >> he rented space in your facility? >> is a presence. it is amazing. it will spend over $100,000 on renovations. which bought 19,000 square feet so we can actually afford to have more square feet. >> is this and little 10?

>> just over the river. >> half of them are from vermont. we look for the best space we were able to find. >> congratulations. that is what it is all about. thank you, good to see you. how are you? do you know this young lady? she has been around. >> we seem to do ok with the senate's tough, but what is the snow coming? >> on christmas, an inch or two maybe. >> nice to see you. i hope the coffee is ok. the dutch and stuff, what else is over there? muffins? thank you guys, good to see you.

>> are you going to get some snow up there? >> thank you for stopping by. >> don't get up, don't get up. how are you? not very good. are you two together? >> about 12 years. please think he will stick with him? >> into lake. >> be better convince me. >> i will do my best. good to see you again. >> in good the see you, stan. thank you. how are you, guys? i am terrific.

are you in college right now? whereabouts? >> florida. pensacola. dodge a big military area up there. what are you studying? >> history. >> what are you doing? college? high school? >> probably high-school. i would like to get into grad school eventually. >> i was just with a group of high-school students in new york for the have a group called the master teachers program. very interesting, they have a foundation that pays each of them $15,000 a year because they want to attract the brightest. >> good to see you. the good luck to you.

[unintelligible conversations] >> good morning, everyone. i have a very important announcement to make. gov. mitt romney, this is a very important announcement for you and mrs. romney right here and council district no. 1 with all of the authority i have, i have declared it meant and and from the day in district number one. --mitt and ann romney day in district no. 1. [applause] there are those of us to serve this northern district, i could not start to introduce everybody. i will introduce united states senator kelly ayotte. good morning senators.

[applause] >> it is always a tough act to follow, but it is wonderful to be here this morning with all of you. i am really honored to be here to support mitt and ann romney. i want to tell you why i am here and why i feel strongly about this. this is such an important election for our country in 2012. i do not think i need to tell anyone in this room that we are at a juncture in the history of our country. we can go down two paths. we can go down a path that we see happening in europe with a debt and economic stagnation and bankruptcy. or we can go down a path that this country is founded on. that is opportunity and

prosperity and freedom and fiscal responsibility. mitt romney is somebody that has the experience in the private sector, and turning it around the olympics, as a governor, he knows we need to create an environment that the private sector can create jobs and opportunities for all the young people i see in this room. i am a mother of a four year old and a seven-year old. he is somebody that knows how to balance the budget. i have spent one year of being in washington i am on the senate budget committee. it has been 950 days in the senate since we passed a budget. there is no presidential leadership to lead us forward. to come forward with a responsible budget and fiscal blueprint for this country. mitt romney knows how to do that. he has done and and he will do

it for our country and lead us forward. mitt romney knows how to do that. he has done and and he will do it for our country and lead us forward. finally and so important to me is that we have a president that is going to unite as and not divide us. that is what mitt romney will do with the leadership skills that he has. when you think about the private sector experience, working with members of both parties to get things done for this country, mitt romney is the one in this field who have those skills. most importantly, he is the one in my view that can beat this president and make sure that we turn our country around and lead us forward. one of the privileges over the last day of writing a run on a bus with him, -- riding around on a bus with them, but a wonderful family and the people. you think about the character and integrity that this family

has. we would be proud to call mitt romney our next president and ann romney our first lady. i am honored to be here to support him. i will work as hard as i can. i have all of you to support him and talk to your friends and family because we need a lot of help. it would not be an easy election as we go forward to the election and take on the general election. when you think about what the stakes are for our children and our grandchildren and all of us in this room, nothing could matter more. i appreciate with being with all of you today. it is my honor to introduce former gov. sununu, former head of the republican party. just a wonderful public servant in our state. [applause] >> thank you, senator. i have to admit something. i am sitting up there and i am

straining in my head trying to remember who was counselor and his district before re burton and i cannot remember. you have to understand that is a thompson that came up with the answer. i know enough to come into this district as a governor who had to deal with the council in the past. i have to start off the process by giving homage to the counselor. raymond, it is good to see you. it is great to see you and it is great to see you have made an extremely wise decision in choosing to support governor romney for president. i thank you personally for that. in this has the senator said a very important election. i should be home doing nothing

now, but i cannot. i am scared to death what is happening to this country. i am scared to death as a party, we may not understand how important it is to nominate somebody that can not only run a good race but to win. winning in this race is absolutely important. i am thrilled to see you here. as i have been doing lately, i will give you a homer kicks project assignment. you really have to go home and talk to some people about coming out on january 10 and make sure the cast a vote for mitt romney. the country needs this. we need to make a change. we cannot make a mistake of voting wrong in our own a primary and nominating candidates.

we need somebody who can take this country -- we cannot make the mistake in our own primary of nominating the wrong the candidates. you do not make things work with smart quips. you make things work by knowing how to make decisions. there is about 19 days left. see if you cannot go out and make a couple of commitments from people that might not have gone and voted on the 10th and asking them to do what they need to do to save this country and in this process. thank you for being here. in my doing an introduction? and i going to hand the microphone --oh. as you notice. john, come up here. john and i share the same fashion consultant.

>> we are about the same size. >> i can tell you, there is nobody that fights for the north country stronger and harder and more effectively than john mcallister. senator dallas, why do you not tell us some of the -- tell us why you have done this morning and committing himself to supporting mitt romney. >> thank you very much, governor. [applause] nice to be here with you today. it is always a pleasure to be here with counselor burton. i did not think i could attract such a crowd either. i have about five pages of remarks prepared. it will probably go on until noon time. actually, i have been

considering for some time to public support for president of the united states. after months of the evaluation of all of the candidates we have running for president this year, i have narrowed down my choice. my endorsement goes to governor mitt romney. governor romney offers what the country needs in these trying times. my constituents are most concerned about the condition of the economy and jobs. the north country of new hampshire has been devastated by the current economy. the lack of leadership in washington. governor romney's back out from the business world as well as his tenure as a physically conservative governor is what we need to get this great country back on track. my decision is also weighed on the person who is best suited to beat barack obama and with

the general election. that person in my estimation undoubtedly is governor mitt romney. it is my pleasure, a young guy from new hampshire, to be here today to give you -- to introduce you to the next president of the united states, mitt romney. [applause] thank you, senator. i appreciate that endorsement. it has been a long time coming and it is coming at just the right time. counselor burton, he told me when the time comes he will take me to the north country. we have done this twice already. we will keep on the trial today

and we appreciate your help through the process. isn't that something to have the famous governor sununu on my team. he makes things happen -- he makes things happen. i appreciate each of their support. i will speak clearly this morning. this young man is 93. he said he did not bring his hearing aid. he needs to be close to the speaker. i will speak clearly. my problem is i also speak quickly. i speak fast. people think i speak too fast. it will be worse this morning. when i got on the boss might find a wife was kind enough to ask if i needed cereal. would you like some toast and i put honey on it. would you like something to drink and i used chocolate milk. i am kind of high on sugar this morning. that may speed things up a bit. i fell in love with a young woman when i was in high school. that is kind of unusual. she was 15 at the time. when i looked across this room we were in at a friend's house

and i saw her and give her a ride home and we have been going steady ever since. i want her to say hello this morning. my sweetheart of 42 years, ann romney. [applause] >> good morning. he looks great. i want to look that good at 93. i want to be around at 93. thank you for coming, this is early and it is christmas. it is great you are willing to come out and beat us and say hello. we appreciate that. -- come here meet us. we appreciate that. wherever the bus goes, i go. it is great to be here. the fact i have known mitt this long. we were high school sweethearts and we fell in love when we were young. i have seen him in all situations, and that has really given me the best plans for all of you to understand something you might not see in debates or anything else. that is the character of the man.

i appreciate the fact that he has been a wonderful husband and family -- wonderful husband and father to my children. we have had great blessings of having 16 grandchildren. if you could skip having kids and just a grand kids, i would recommend it. i do not know if that is possible, but it is great. some of the stories i would like to tell but i will not in detail is how he stood by me in my darkest hours when i was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and how i can depend on him. he will always be there for me. we have a real partnership and we are in this together. i was the one who actually gave him a lot of encouragement to think about running a second time. some of you might recognize it is a difficult thing we are going through right now. it is hard to run for the

president of the united states. i knew one thing for sure, i never wanted to do it again. i felt that way pretty strongly after the last time. so strongly i had a recorded. however, at this time seeing what is going on with the country, i was the first want to say that i was sorry about saying that. he reminded me that i said that after each pregnancy and he did not pay much attention to it. i think it is important that he run. it is not that there aren't other good people out there. it is that i know the skills that he has is unusual. he has done things in private business and government and the olympics. if you combine all of those things and they have all been a turnaround situation. if there is an emergency or you need something fact, i know who to turn to. i appreciate you being here. maybe you can ask mitt romney some tough questions. >> thank you, sweetheart. [applause]

the senator said it well. we are at a juncture in america's history right now as to what kind of nation we will be. we have been going down a road of larger government, a more troubled economy, unclear to why it is in many people's minds that the recession has dragged on and on. we are now 25 million people in this country that are out of work or just stopped looking for work or can only find part- time work. we have a number of college folks here today that will be coming out of college or ph.d. programs and hope to be able to find a job and wonder if they will be able to do so. that was not a question for 10 years ago. you came out of college with a degree and you knew you would have a job. it is very different today. people wonder why that is. i happen to believe it is because over the past several

years and during the period of his president, we have taken a course that has made america weaker economically. made it harder to create jobs and for enterprises to grow and thrive. we have a young entrepreneur a couple here. well, i say young -- to me you are young. they have opened a substantial business and taking a rest. there are fewer people willing to do that today. we have insisted on the government that tries to guide the private sector like it is trying to guide our lives. i think you see a president who believes we should be more like you're up with an entitlement society. a society where government takes from some and give to others interest to make everybody the same. the only people who do well and that kind of society are the people who work for government. that is welfare society and in tadema's society is something that is growing in this country

and making us more like europe and less like america. i believe in something of mccollum opportunity society where people based upon their education and their hard work and their risk-taking are able to earn rewards and by virtue of doing so they implored the rest of us and let the entire nation's prosperity and allow us to defend ourselves. it was that vision that the founders brought to america with the crafted the declaration of independence. they said the creator and out us with unalienable rights among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. that last phrase we may not think about much but i think it is an important one. this would be a nation where we could pursue happiness and the way we choose. where we live, what profession we see, what job we get, how many kids we have, the freedoms we have, our ability to speak our mind.

these abilities to pursue happiness as we wish define our nation and brought people all over the world -- pioneers, innovators, to this country. it is in our dna. the spirit of pioneering this would have allowed our economy to outperform the economies of europe from which many of us sprung. it has outperformed the most populous nations of asia. we are an opportunity nation. over the last several years, in particular under the leadership of president obama, government increasingly takes away our freedoms and the capacity of the beer can system and our enterprises to grow and thrive. -- the american system and our

enterprises to grow and thrive. this is a choice we are going to have to have. do we believe in a bigger government taking more from us and limiting what we achieved or do we believe in free enterprise and freedom and opportunity and a merit based society. do we vilify and demonize those who have been most successful or will we celebrate the success of all americans? these are the choices i think america will have to face. i spent my life in the private sector the first 25 years of my career. i know how the private sector works. i want to use those lessons to help washington and to make sure we once again restore the greatness that is i had the occasion to use those skills in state government. you remember i had the opportunity in four years. i found the same skills could be adjusted and applied in a way that allowed us to do a better job managing our state. we balance the budget every four years.

states do that. businesses do that. we learn how to live within a budget. washington does not do that. i went to bring the skull to washington. when you are in business you have to get along with your customers, your suppliers, the regulators, the bankers, the investors, you have to work with each of these groups to have different interests and make sure you have a combination of the different interests. in washington we need somebody who will be able to get a long with people across the aisle. in my state of massachusetts there are a few democrats. my legislature was 85% democrat. and yet, i found a way to work with leaders among the democratic party and finding some common ground. neither side had to violate their principles. instead, we found some places where we could agree and work together to try to make things better for our state. that is desperately needed in

washington. be called a leadership. leadership is the capacity to bring others to a common solution. to have a vision and the capacity to understand others need to build trust and have them know you are a person of character. to be able to follow and find solutions to our challenges. i but like to help the senator. she is a terrific person and a great leader for the people of new hampshire. i want to go in washington and work with her to help america. i want to do a lot of things. balance our budget, make america the most attractive place again for entrepreneur is and innovators. that is part of the mission i will have in washington. with that introduction, i will turn to you have you ask some questions. i will turn to you. this is the entrepreneur.

is that a northern european name? >> sicilian. do i not look it? >> i will not try to spell it. >> loiacono. >> it takes a hand. you have to move your hand to see the word. >> mike and i are very involved in this election as we have been the most recent elections. -- my wife and i are involved in this election as we have been in most elections. i will offer a suggestion. it has nothing to do with the debates. none of us have gone through life having made a decision and always stuck through it the rest of our lives. some decisions absolutely. we have moved, changed his bosses, we have -- changed

spouses, we have changed businesses, college majors, what i am trying to say is that i do not want a president or a leader who is inflexible. i do not want somebody who has made a decision on something may be 10 years ago and despite any new information, he will stick to that decision. you have been painted by some of your opposition both from the democrats and your fellow primary seekers as having flip- flop on some issues. i would not run away from that. i would say, yes, i have. new information has come and i have was an up or what ever. i do not want somebody who is just going to be full speed ahead toward the torpedos no

matter what. things change. you look at history and one that we are friends with this country and the next day we are not. that is just something from somebody who has observed and watched. i do not think it is such a terrible thing to change your opinion on something. i think it would be useful to where it as a badge of courage. >> thank you. having had the experience of living in the private sector i have found that more than once i have been wrong. in the private sector if you do not recognize you are wrong and you keep sticking to a position you have before you have all the data you get in your experience, the call you stubborn. with time he would be likely to get your job. -- he would be likely to lose your job over the course of my lifetime, some of my views have

changed. not as many as my opponents would suggest. one of those was on the issue of life and that was one where i thought i would have -- or i thought i had the answer when i was running for senate and then when i became governor. i was given a piece of legislation that would have created new life for the purpose of experimenting on it and then destroying it. this was an embryonic stem cell research. i could not sign a bill that would take life. i recognized that was a very different course than i had expected. i wrote an editorial in the boston globe describing why i made that decision and why was pro-life. i have been convinced of that ever since. thank you. >> i would like to ask a question.

i have three ladies that are in their 80's that i am friends with. they are still in their own homes. the price of heating and taxes is a struggle. they have outlived their husbands. their interest rates have gone down. they all talk about buying a home with the 3% and 4%, but what can be done when you go to washington hopefully to help those people who have counted four years for that extra income each month and especially now with the world, it is hitting all three of them hard. >> it is really tough right now. you are fighting throughout this country that it is harder and harder on middle income families. seniors and middle income families that are just getting started, you are finding people by the virtue of the unemployment level and the cost of oil and food and people have all gone up. it is having a harder time. the best thing i can do is get

the economy going again. the growth of the economy as such so people are going back to work, paying taxes, buying more things which will ultimately mean interest rates are not held onto virtually zero. we recognize that by holding interest rates as low as they are some of the people who are helping to refinance the financial-services sector that has been in such trouble our seniors who are seeing lower interest rates coming in month to month by virtue of low rates on cds and other investments. the best thing i can do is get the economy going. we can go back and look at the inflator is used for social security. i know there has been no adjustment in the last two or three years in part because the cpi has not shown any movement.

people are really struggling. it breaks my heart to see so many folks in this country really having a hard time. part of that is because of an economy that is just in the doldrums and continues to be in the doldrums. it will continue to be liked germans have been in for a long time and japan has been for decades. we will be like this for a long time if we continue to act like europe. if we believe that the government can manage the economy better than free people pursuing their dreams. i want to get back to the point where america is once again the best place in the world for entrepreneurs and for inventors and businesses small and large to have -- when the head of coca-cola, talk about an american brand. when coca-cola's chief executive says america is less attractive from a business standpoint and china, a better environment there, that means the dollars are going over there. investment is happening there rather than here. i want to bring them back years

our people create jobs here and build businesses here. that lives of our economy and will help all of those who invest in our economy whether it is with bonds or stocks or whether it is with cds. if the economy is strong and vibrant, the returns to all of us is vibrant the economy in trouble means a lot of middle income families in trouble. >> a interest what would -- what you would do specifically for the environment that is better for entrepreneurs in the land of opportunity you talked about earlier. >> i will call the seven major things that create an investment family and business family, job family environment that allows jobs to start to grow. actually, the seven are a summary of 59 different points i put in a little book.

we may have some here. i will not take you through all of those. i am not sure i could take you to all of us. 7 i can do. one is to make sure the tax rates are competitive with tax rates on employers and other countries. right now we are the highest in the world by a lottery be are tied with japan. relative to europe, their tax rate is about 25% and hours is 35%. we need to get our tax rate down to be competitive with others. regulators and regulations have to recognize that their job is not just to catch the bad guys and keep at things from happening, but also to encourage the sector they are regulating to succeed. rather than burdening the private economy they need to encourage it. you know in the north country with the regulators say in and say you cannot camp in national forests, you cannot use -- the

land has been set aside for small boat -- snowmobiling and so forth, the regulators think they are making things better but they hope -- they heard the economy. tourism and use of your national resources is something that is essential. regulators have to understand that is part of their job. it is encouraging the economy and the private sector. you have to have trade policies that opened up new markets for our goods and allow us to sell products where right now they are not going because of high tariffs. no. two, you have to make sure that the cheaters -- china has been a cheater but too often -- the cheaters are held accountable. we have to take advantage of our armed energy resources. we have a lot of energy in this country. oil, gas, coal, nuclear power, we have to take advantage of them instead of regulators

trying to keep them from providing the resources we need. i was the head of a large chemical company, he said we just announced a $20 billion facility in saudi arabia. he said we would rather build in pennsylvania, but we could not count on the regulators to texas -- let us get access to the natural gas. we are talking about tens of thousands of jobs because of that decision. it is like the keystone pipeline decision. let's get our own energy in this country and that will help create jobs. you have to get the role of lot to get the environment right. what do i mean by that? we have something today called the crony capitalism or the president takes care of his friends. obamacare for instance. these units are give it -- the unions are given waivers. they do not have to worry about

that burden because they are his friends. boeing is told they cannot build a factory in south carolina employing people because south carolina is not a union state. and this is an example of people up. indifference to positions of power with and give paybacks to the people who helped them out. we have to go back to the rule of law. we have to have institutions that create human capital. capitalism is about human capital. it is about education, immigration policies that bring in the best and brightest of other places that help the rest of us. if you want to businesses and small and large to make the risky decision of investing in america, they cannot be worried that we are going to hit a wall like greece or italy or spain.

they have to say american will be stable long-term and the currency will be worth something. we have to quit spending more than we taken. we cannot keep going year after year barring an extra $1 trillion. i remember what president obama was highly critical of bush for debt -- deficits that were as high as $450 billion. and right he was to be critical. his have reached three times that it down. by the end of his first four years and hopefully his only four years, he will have put together as much public debt as all the prior presidents combined. almost.

it is really extraordinary. those are the seven things that i would do and act upon immediately to make america an attractive place for entrepreneurs big and small so they have a desire to hire more people. that way people coming out of programs across the country, whether they will go into teaching -- word you go with statistics? what kind of job? >> may be a professor at the university. >> may be governed -- government leadership and responsibility. i want to make sure people with those skills have good jobs and incomes. we have wages that rise in america. over the last 10 years -- over the last four years, let me get the numbers right. the last four years the median income has dropped by 10%. this is a tough time. thank you. that is a long answer to a simple question. >> i want to know what your

views are on bureaucracy in washington. a lot of the big departments, epa, health and human services, there regulations and telling everyone what to do. is there a way to cut that out and eliminated or cut it back? >> that is a darn good question. one of the challenges with too many regulators and bureaucrats is the create too many bureaucracies that become struggling for our lives and our economies. when i went into the state of massachusetts, i looked at our department of health and human services. we have 15 different agencies within the department. i said, can we not combine them? we got them into three different groups and that allowed us to have fewer lawyers, if your public relations or press secretaries. we were able to take out some of the overhead. he had some agencies like transportation and the environmental agency, the were always at each other's throats and arguing with each other. i said to we put them together?

i put one person in charge of the three to make them work together and become more effective. we look back over my record in massachusetts for four years, and we did something i do not think many states can claim. if you look at all the agencies that report to the governor, all the departments whether it is the state police or folks and health and human services, part number of employees went down during my tenure. i look at washington and believe we should do three big things. one is to eliminate some programs. stop them altogether. it is not wise to keep borrowing money from china to pay for things we do not have to have. i will cut some programs out, even some i like. i will be calling on the american people to say we are willing to sacrifice the end of this program or that program because america cannot to going the way that it is. number two, i will take some programs like medicaid which is

the health care program for the poor and send it back to the states. i think new hampshire can do a better job caring for the health care needs better than washington can. i was spent -- said some things back to the states. for the remaining portion of government, will cut the payroll by 10% through attrition. how will link the pay of government workers with the pay that exists in the private sector. [applause] i do not think people who are working as public servants should make a heck of a lot more than people who are paying their way. one more thing that i will mention in that regard, those who work in public sector unions, i do not think it is fear for their bosses to take dos out of their wages and it

then for the boss to be able to decide which candidate or party to give it to a people want to contribute to candidates they should be free to do so. i do not think union bosses should be able to take hundreds of millions of dollars from union members and give it to who they want to give it to. that is what i will do to take on the bureaucracy in washington. you can be assured of this. if i become president of the united states, the people who work in government will be a smaller number than they are today. i am not discounting our president -- our troops. president clinton talked about shrinking the military. i would actually like to add personnel to the military so the burden is not as great on them as it has been the past couple of years. he told me i have to run. we are moving on down the road. come join us, we will take some questions there as well. i want to say thank you for your willingness to spend some time. i look forward to seeing you out there on january 10. thank you.

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>> next, newt gingrich, who is campaigning in new hampshire. the former house speaker has challenged mitt romney to a series of one-on-one debates. [applause] >> thank you very much, ladies and gentleman but let us get started. i wanted to say, first, thank you very much. i am andrew hemmingway, state director for newt here in new hampshire. i am honored to have you all in attendance. i am excited that speaker newt gingrich with us, i am excited to have speaker bill o'brien, laurie sanborn and always beautiful calista today. today is an exciting event. without going into details or

spoiling the surprise, i want to give you a rundown very quickly of how the event is going to run. we are going to have our state chair, to the podium in a moment. then speaker bill o'brien give a few words. and then speaker newt gingrich will speak. and after he speaks for a minute -- unlike governor mitt romney, we will actually take questions at a town hall. without further ado, our state share, one of the hardest working reps in that house and we are honored to have heard leading the team in new hampshire. laurie? >> thank you, andrew. it is so great to see all of you. i know the weather is not

perfect and we are in the week of christmas but this is such a special event. as andrew mentioned, i am lori sanborn, assistant deputy majority leader in the statehouse. i am a freshman legislator and in my time now i created a new hampshire house business corporation -- coalition and many are in the room today and we accomplished a lot in new hampshire and i am excited about that. i am very excited to be recently appointed state chair for the newt campaign and -- and i want to thank all of the employees and volunteers who have been working very hard. we have a lot of work to do but i am eager to work with you and roll up my sleeves. i am looking forward to that. as a legislator and a business owner, i value results of all law. that is why i so enthusiastically support newt gingrich in his run for president and why i am so honored to be the one to introduce our next speaker, the

speaker of the new hampshire house, bill o'brien. he is a man who knows how to get results. in our time in office together, bill has done a great number of things. first and foremost, after we inherited and $800 million deficit in our state, we quickly balance the budget and reduced state spending by 17 percent. [applause] that is truly a historic achievement, and we could not have done it without a bill. in addition to that, we have done a number of government reforms, including reforming our state pension system. we have passed over 40 bills that rollback excessive regulations on our business community.

and we have lowered the unemployment rate in new hampshire. so, this is under the auspices of bill o'brien. we can't thank him enough. back in the 1970's i saw a quote from ronald reagan -- saying now is not the time for pastel colors but time for bald, primary colors. we have a bold leader in speaker o'brien. please join me in welcoming him on the stage. [applause] >> thank you. thank you very much. good afternoon. there are many standards to judge a presidential candidate. one of the best is past performance. by that measure, only one candidate this year has achieved the meaningful change in washington that we need, and that candidate is newt gingrich. while president obama promised both hope and change, the results have been a disastrous

failure that accomplished only one objective -- a massive growth in government. growth of finance at the expense of liberty and our children's and our grandchildren's future. as someone who believes in limited government, who believes in new hampshire's motto of live free or died, and believes my three children and my three grandchildren believe and america as a secure and financially sound as it was when i became an adult, i know we need -- we cannot continue down barack obama's disastrous path that will lead to bankrupting of our freedom and future generations. that is why it is not good enough just to defeat barack obama. we need to replace him with a president who has a clear sense with -- of where the country needs to go. we need to replace it with a president who ensures the era of american greatness is over. we cannot afford candidates who put electoral convenience or extreme ideologies and head of

bringing transformative change that will restore america's place in the world while making our federal government smaller, more efficient, and less of an impediment to our economy and liberty. after spending a considerable amount of time reviewing the candidates for president and coming to like and admire many of them -- perhaps most of them -- one person rose to the top as the person certain to bring positive, transformative change to washington. and that person is speaker newt gingrich. newt gingrich is the person who most certainly will get america back to the ideals that made our country great. he will return our country to being the beacon of freedom and opportunity to the world that it has been for decades before the current presidency.

newt gingrich is the one person who will most certainly bring fiscal discipline back to washington. his past performance, his track record, is exactly what we need now to solve today's problems in washington. look at that track record. while revisionist historians would like to credit the tremendous success of the 1990's to bill clinton, all bill clinton had to show before newt gingrich's in the house was a failed stimulus plan, a failed attempt at national health care, a major tax increase, a bill to restrict second amendment rights, and, of course, midnight basketball. when newt took over, congress pushed the tax cut of 1997 which included a capital gains cut which created millions of jobs. it was not bill clinton who displayed the political courage to hold the line on federal

spending that led to the first balanced budget in four decades and that led to four balanced budget so, it was the house led by newt gingrich. it was not bill clinton who crafted the welfare reform that lifted millions out of poverty. instead, clinton twice vetoed welfare reform and it was only the dogged determination of newt gingrich's house of representatives that led to bill clinton finally agreeing to sign a bill for welfare reform that made welfare a bridge to work and not a dead end of dependency. these huge accomplishments would not have taken place without newt gingrich's vision and leadership. we desperately need that vision and leadership in the oval office today. these changes will be hard. i know firsthand because it is what we are trying to do in new hampshire. and the only way to get there is with someone who has a clear

goal of where our nation needs to go, and ability to articulate these complex ideas assembly and understandably, and an uncompromising level of determination to see things through. newt gingrich is not only that person. he has shown us that time and again he is that person. he is the right man at the right time for the presidency. i would wholeheartedly endorse his efforts, and i am committed to helping him deliver the leadership america so desperately needs today. mr. gingrich? [applause] >> well, thank you, speaker o'brien. i was sitting up here thinking, as someone who did help balance the budget for four consecutive

years, and as somebody who does the pitted twice in the only actual domestic discretionary spending cuts that we had since world war ii -- and ronald reagan, 1981, was not a reduction in rate of growth -- 1995 speaker, we went down. when i think of what the speaker has achieved and spending cuts year -- could you imagine what washington would be like if they have the courage to match new hampshire in that kind of fiscal discipline? it would have been remarkable. i thank you for your leadership and for proving that the tea party movement can bring decisive commitment to real change and, at a practical level, can turn into something that creates jobs, attract new business, attracts new opportunities. it is a remarkable thing. your endorsement is particularly meaningful. we may want him to go around the country to do a road show saying obama budget, new hampshire budget, obama budget, new hampshire budget -- it is a pretty good story. [applause]

in addition, the first time i talked to laurie, i was really excited and one of her to be part of the campaign because her commitment to having businesses have effective representation in the legislature is a key. i have twice participated in creating a lot of jobs -- as a very junior congressman i worked with jack kemp and number of people and we developed what was called supply-side economics. larry kudlow part of that. in the reagan administration would have a simple panted four parts -- cut taxes, cut regulations, focus on american energy, and favor the people who actually create jobs. tell them it is a good thing to go out and create a job. in the process, reagan created millions of new jobs, unemployment came down from about 10.8% down to 5.6% in his presidency.

in one month, august of 1983, we created 1,300,000 new jobs. when i became speaker, i basically picked up the reagan playbook. as speaker o'brien said, the first wave of the clinton administration was raising taxes, raising spending, crippling the economy and when i came in, frankly, the dow jones had not moved, things have not gotten any better, and we went back to the reagan playbook -- lower taxes, less regulation, more american energy, and a crowd of people who go to work every day and create jobs. the result was in the four years i was speaker, there were 11 million new jobs created. the reason i like what laurie has done is she is bringing in people who actually created jobs. this is the opposite of the obama model. obama raises taxes, increases regulations, is anti-american energy and engages in class warfare against people who

create jobs. then we wonder why the economy is a mess. by the way, the attack on american energy by the obama administration showed up this year in the highest average price of gasoline in american history. in 2011, americans pay more for gasoline than any time in american history. if you are an editorial writer for "the new york times" and you ride the subway getting to work you probably did not notice this. but if you live in rural america, small town america, medium-size america, you probably noticed immediately. if you drive a car, you probably noticed it. if you would like to visit your children or grandchildren -- over christmas, people would drive to visit their relatives are going to notice this. when gasoline prices and diesel prices and heating oil prices, they go through the economy and cause pain along the way. i like the idea that we are going to work with businesses with fiscal conservatism to get

things done. calista the mind of the we also want to come here to say something that is not political -- reminded me we also want to come here and say something that is not political, which is merry christmas. [laughter] [applause] so, i would just say one or two things about the race. i have to confess, of the iowa race has gotten to be a real mess. i think my good friends have bought about $7 million of negative advertising and we just cheerfully go forward and tell the truth and it is interesting to watch out the audiences react. the american people are not stupid. people know if there is a negative ad zumbar they probably bought it and -- and if you see it several times in an hour, they probably raised too much money. i want to say to you what i have been saying out there -- i will be here on a positive campaign. we are in trouble as a country. we need to focus on how to get

out of trouble, we need to talk about the solutions that will get us out to trouble. if you go to newt.org, a proposed 21st century contract with america. we will grow and develop it and by december 27, the anniversary of the contract, we will post the legislative part and by october 1 we will post a series of executive orders that will indicate exactly what i will do as the first day of president and first will eliminate all of the white house czars as of that moment. [applause] so, i am very prepared to campaign. i will also tell you, because i think the issues are so huge -- if the choice is barack obama and newt gingrich. on the one hand you have a saul olinsky radical , he used to teach his model in chicago. community leaders -- that was political radicalism.

and on -- on the other hand of someone who believes passionately in the declaration of independence and that our rights come from our creator, and alienable, and sovereignty resides in you, that you are a citizen and not a subject and we the people the find the government. so, the gap philosophically is enormous. on one side you have the finest food stamp president in american history. no one has done more to put more people on food stamps than barack obama. i would like to be the finest paycheck president in american history. [applause] and in terms of winning the general election, let me point out that at this point in 1979, ronald reagan was 30 points behind jimmy carter. the leading media did everything they could to make reagan unacceptable.