very powerful figure in sort of consolidating what we now talk about as the roosevelt coalitioni, but it begins with al smith bringing this urban core into the party. >> beverly gage and john evers, thank you so much for being on the contenders. we also want to make surewe also thank speaker sheldon silver and the people here at the new york state assembly for allowing us to broadcast live. we want to thank our studio audience and our cable partner up here in albany, time-warner. we're going to leave you with a few of al smith's own words on his career and life. >> i was elected to my first public office in 1903. i remained in the assembly for 12 years. then i was elected sheriff of new york county. then i was elected president of the board of aldermen. in fact, i ran for office 22 times.

i was elected 20 times and defeated twice. i've worked for the county, i've worked for the city. i have worked for the state. and you will probably remember that i tried to get a job down in washington but something happened to me at that time. [laughter] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011]

>> "the contenders" continues with wendall wilkie. [cheering] >> we want willkie! we want willkie! we want willkie! ♪ >> i stand before you without a single pledge or promise or understanding of any kind except for the advancement of your cause and the preservation

of american democracy. [applause] as your nominee, i will have an aggressive fighting campaign. [applause] >> we want willkie! >> wendell willkie ran for president in 1940. these are some images of him on the campaign trail. we are here with david willkie, his grandson. i want you to introduce the audience to some of the fervor. as we're seeing from these iconic images from the 1940's campaign that surrounded him. your grandfather ran for president and tried to defeat franklin delano roosevelt, who was seeking a third term. >> here we are just entering

into the great depression, the end of the hoover administration, eight years of the roosevelt administration. president roosevelt was right at the height of his power. that opened up a place for a dark horse candidate to come outside the political spectrum. >> keep in mind the state of the republican party. it was a party defeated by roosevelt in 1932. he defeated herbert hoover and another. what were the republicans looking for and why was your grandfather the person they chose? >> and nobody else had run for a third term before, going back to the time of george washington. when washington stepped down, no one had even dreamed of running for a third term for the presidency. when roosevelt announced that he did, it changed the whole dynamic of what was out there. certainly looking at europe, world war ii, the nazis were going over to northern europe. it certainly opened up a time in which the republicans said, "what do we do?"

>> herbert hoover was hoping the party would come back to him. u.s. senator thomas dewey of new york. u.s. senator taft from ohio -- mr. republican. this was a convention in philadelphia that went for six hours. >> and nobody had come from the business side. nobody was actually doing that except for wendell willkie. he certainly rose up and had an electric personality and magnetic energy about him. >> you obviously never knew your grandfather. as you talk to family members who knew him, he died at the age of 52. we will learn more about his life. why did he ultimately decide to run for the nomination? he did set the groundwork in 1939 for a possible presidential bid in 1940. >> he was always interested in politics, even from growing up in his hometown. of elwood, indiana, which is

just up the road from here. he talked about it in his life, in his childhood with his parents, when they got to college -- it was always an integral part of his life. >> we are in rushville, indiana, one of the homes of wendell willkie. we are inside the historical society. i want to turn back here and look at this. if you can explain what this is, representative of that campaign? >> this is a wooden post card sent through the united states mail, sent from aberdeen, washington. all of the people in the town actually signed the back of the postcard to say "we want willkie." we want wendell willkie to run for the presidential nomination for the pregnancy. >> what was the campaign like? you had your willkie clubs. you had boxes of buttons and banners.

they were distributed around the country and some are on display here. >> people wanted something new and different that they had not had before. this is where the willkie name started to take off. here was someone who had challenged the new deal successfully. he had been a strong proponent of individual freedom and liberty. people were drawn to the message. >> we are about a block off of main street. your mother, wendell willkie's daughter in law, lived a few blocks from here in rushville, indiana. the significance of this home to your family. >> it was my grandmother's home town. my grandfather grew up in elwood. when they married, this was the place they generally called home. in the family, my great great grandfather had lost his shirt during the depression. instead of giving his father in law a handout, what wendell willkie did was bought farmland.

he asked his father-in-law if he would manage it. >> how much time did he spend in rushville? >> on and off. >> his wife and son would come back constantly, but during the campaign, this was the headquarters. >> where is elwood? >> the northeastern part of the state, north of rushville about an hour and a half from here, a little over an hour from indianapolis in madison county. >> why is elwood so important for the 1940 campaign? >> he decided to accept the nomination in elwood, indiana. still to this day, it is the

largest political rally ever in the history of indiana. >> the historical society said the people were honking horns and cheering that the hometown boy was the republican nominee. >> he was improbable going into the philadelphia. >> no question. he was the dark horse. during the nomination speech, you had stories of beer cans many feet high. it was such a hot, sweltering indiana day. it was a carnival atmosphere with books and paraphernalia. some of those you may see here today. >> david willkie, who is the grandson of wendell willkie. we'll be checking in with you over the next two hours. as we continue the series, "the contenders," tonight we are coming to you from rushville, indiana. in a moment, we'll be joined by author and historian amity shlaes, the author of "the forgotten man," and james madison, professor of history at the university of indiana. we are going to show you the

scene in elwood, indiana, and the speech by wendell willkie as i walk into the next room and introduce our guests coming up in a minute and half. >> i say that we must substitute for the philosophy of distributed scarcity, the philosophy of unlimited productivity. [applause] i stand for the restoration of full production and reemployment by private enterprise in america. [applause] the new deal's effect on business has had the inevitable results. the investor has been afraid to invest his capital. therefore billions of dollars lie idle in our banks.

the businessman has been afraid to expand his operations. many hands have returned to the unemployment office. low incomes in the city and irresponsible experiments in the country have deprived the farmer of this market. for the first time in history, american industry has remained stationary for a full decade. i charge that the path this administration is following will lead us like france to the end of the road. i say that this course will lead us to economic disintegration and dictatorship. i say that we must substitute for the philosophy of spending, the philosophy of production. you cannot buy freedom. you must make freedom. [applause] >> from elwood, indiana, in august of 1940 to the west -- rush county's historical society here in rushville, indiana. this is one of the postage stamps from 1992 -- a 75 cent stamp celebrating the centennial of wendell willkie's

birth. amity shlaes is with the george washington institute in dallas, texas. james madison, you have been a professor of history at indiana university. let me begin with that speech he gave in elwood, indiana. it lays the groundwork for why he was challenging franklin delano roosevelt. >> he ran against roosevelt and against the new deal and against the tide of policies and politics represented by the new deal. we will have a good opportunity to talk about those in detail. it was a fairly standard political speech, but not a fairly standard political rally. as david said, it was a massive rally. 150,000-200,000 people in the small indiana town in august at a time when as hoosiers say, you can hear the corn grow. it was 102 degrees that afternoon when wendell took the podium. he spoke with eloquence, yet the

atmosphere was such the speech was a bit flat in terms of the audience, in terms of the reception. that was not the best start for thecampaign. we now know looking back that it was rather indicative of the campaign itself -- some of the disorganization and difficulties that the amateur newcomer had. why they should vote roosevelt out of office and not give him a third term. >> one note about the speech, it was heard on radio by millions of americans. >> this was the time for radio. people sat by the radio and listened intently. >> amity shlaes, you have written extensively about the new deal. this is now eight years after franklin roosevelt promised a

new deal for the american people, yet unemployment still in the double digits, still a lot of concern about the economy. why did republicans turned to an outsider? it is probably the first time in american history that a non- military not a politician was the party nominee. >> this was a political expression. i see the speech as a enormous success of some kind. the republican party was failing the country. it was not giving an answer to what the democrats had offered. the democrats were not delivering recovery. the recovery was choosing to stay away. what willkie was an expression of his public charity -- popularity, willkie was an expression of the people. the gop had never expected a

rally like that. it was a genuine grass-roots event of a kind that is very rare in the u.s. you start way down there and get to the nomination for president. >> why him? what did he do to try to lay the groundwork that allowed the party to turn to this outsider, this businessman from indiana who spent some time in new york at the 1940 nominee? >> it is easy to underestimate willkie. the professional, the long term career politicians did just that. they underestimated this fellow. he did have no political experience to speak up. he had never ran for office. he never held office. he was a businessman, a lawyer, but very smart and very sophisticated. i think it is relevant that his business experience was really, in a way, political experience. he was a wonderful communicator. he knew how to work with people. he knew how to make a case, how to make an argument -- the kind of skills he deployed as a presidential candidate. >> yet alice roosevelt longworth said it was a grassroots of 1000 country clubs.

you are smiling. >> the grassroots campaign is part of the politics ofpoliticking. it truly was a grassroots in what it intended, but willkie was not a common man. he was a wealthy corporate lawyer and businessman. he had an agricultural interest, but he was not a farmer. he said he farmed by conversation, not by actually farming. he was far from the grass roots, but he tried to appeal to the grassroots. >> amity shlaes, let's talk about the 1940 convention. this had the governor of minnesota delivering the speech. longtime presidential candidate. herbert hoover, former president, who is hoping the party would turn to him one more time. tom dewey, and, of course, robert taft, who is hoping the party returned to him. >> we get in a little trouble when we draw analogies.

dewey was the prosecutor from new york who overrated himself. we often have new yorkers come out and say they are going to win, especially when they have a legal background. taft was mr. republican. people had heard about him before. taft was a name. we had had a president named taft. that was not particularly new. herbert hoover was a wonderful man, but he had become a great vanity. he was getting in the way of the progress of the party because he kept wanting to run again. his time was probably past. what was exciting about willkie was he went to hear herbert hoover and could not believe that herbert hoover would hog the nomination. in that way, willkie was grassroots.

he, himself, was not of the grass. he was chosen by people who were voting against the party. the other names were "the party." willkie came in as somebody different, not what we expected. >> he retired and an exciting man. i think for many people, it was none of the above. it was the perfect atmosphere for an outsider who promises and looks very different from the republican standard of the late 1930's. >> what was the state of the democratic party, amity shlaes, and franklin roosevelt and his support in 1940, eight years after the new deal at a time when most presidents would step down? >> roosevelt's victory -- 46 out of 48 states in the preceding election -- was so hard to get past. even as the party was beginning to get past it, this idea of having a third term -- the war was coming closer.

war in 1940 had already been declared in europe. germans had invaded poland and britain. all of a sudden, roosevelt was -- just when you say there roosevelt could not run again, roosevelt was a navalpresident. he was good at war. they knew that. they knew that he served the secretary of the navy. he might be a good war leader. all of a sudden, people were tongue tied and did not protest against roosevelt. still, it was quite amazing. >> professor madison, the headlines in the summer of 1940 with willkie as the republican nominee, hitler moving to france and declaring victory. the big question, is great britain next? juxtapose the politics of 1940 and the looming clouds of war in 1940-1941. >> it worked very much to wendell willkie's advantage. >> france surrendered to the nazis a couple of days before

the philadelphia convention began. that turned americans' attention very forcefully to this war in europe. they did not want to be a part of it. but they knew they needed a wartime leader. roosevelt looked a lot better in that context than did any of of the other republicans. >> we are coming to you from the rush county historical society in rushville, indiana, one of the homes of wendell willkie. just about an hour from indianapolis. he was born in elwood, indiana. as we continue this series, our focus this week is on wendell willkie. the telephone numbers are on the screen. there are so many images from that campaign. there are things we do not see

in modern campaigns -- ticker- tape parades. what was that significant? what did that tell you about the support wendell willkie had with certain sectors of the public? >> of course, there was no television. they really had to get out there with the people. he spent a lot of time crossing the country on trains. retail politics in towns and cities all across america, with all the hoopla, with all the stuff to get people engaged andkeep them excited about the campaign. >> was franklin roosevelt worried about wendell willkie? >> i think he enjoyed it. he said, "i am not going to pretend that it is an unpleasant duty for me campaign." both of them were warriors. both of them enjoyed that process, yet he respected willkie as a contender. from the beginning, you see him dropping comments -- "that one i am worried about." he was ready for the battle.

>> we will hear from franklin roosevelt in just a minute. who was behind the willkie campaign? who are some names our audience might be familiar with? >> willkie had the good fortune or the good sense to meet people in the publishing and newspaper business. people who bought ink by the barrel, as they say. the editor of forbes magazine, the book editor of the new york tribune, henry luce of time- life, and others. these people in the publishing world like him very much and were very strong behind-the- scenes in advocating a working for his nomination and election. >> yet, he was a democrat before becoming the republican nominee. >> he had more credibility as an outsider. he supported the league of nations. he was a wilsonian.

he was a democrat right up to 1935. you can find documents with willkie associated with democrats. that gave him more power because he was a dark horse, because he was not a party man. he became a republican out of conviction. he saw what was wrong with the democratic philosophy of governance. when you look at the beginning of his career as a businessman, he thought he was a democratic utilities man. they gradually came to be as the government was hurting the private utilities and he grew angry. he was speaking truth to power. that is what he represented. he really was angry for what happened to his company. he saw shareholders lose money, in commonwealth and southern, and his company get hurt. that is someone observing from the political sphere. >> the unemployment rate in 1940 was what? >> the unemployment rate for 1940 was 10% or below.

it was above where we are. it is a little bit muddy because you are moving towards world war ii. the average unemployment rate for the 1940's was in the teens. that is the important thing to know. some people say 14, some say 15. it is the difference between terrible and awful. we would not accept it and it was so long. >> wendell willkie talking about unemployment and jobs on the campaign trail in hoboken, new jersey. and then a conversation, part of the recordings of president roosevelt in the oval office from october 1940 as president roosevelt discusses the challenge. >> one of the things that struck me as i was driving up the streets of hoboken, why does the average store window -- that is, the vacant store window -- have pictures of my opponent and his running mate on the new deal ticket? i do not know of any more appropriate place to put those pictures.

[applause]

>> franklin roosevelt in recordings from 1940. james madison, franklin roosevelt was a politician. we hear a little bit of that in this oval office recording. >> there is probably never anyone in the white house who was more of a wily politician than franklin roosevelt. it is just superb. he had a skill and ability and success that has few if any rivals. willkie had the misfortune of running against that skillful politician.

>> was wendell willkie consistent on the issues in the 1940 campaign? >> i do not think so. few politicians are consistent on the issues. the campaign started to go badly for willkie. the disorganization, the chaos, the difficulty of challenging roosevelt. in the last part of the campaign, he moved toward a position on the war and the new deal that he may not have happily agreed with. they were more harsh, more vituperative then the true wendell willkie. >> amity shlaes. >> he was inconsistent, but we cannot downplay his success. he won more votes in that election than any republican had ever won. electorally, roosevelt was that wily fox. he had that large number of electoral votes relative to willkie. on the popular vote, it was much narrower.

willkie got much closer to the democrats than republicans have before. to the tape we just heard of roosevelt, roosevelt really did become worried. that's where you see him worried. he said all sorts of things. maybe we will hear tonight another tape where he worried about whether he could use willkie's mistress as a fact to beat him in the election, irita van doren. there is a lot of stuff going on and they are beginning to take him seriously. that was the future of the campaign. a very important girlfriend back willkie had. >> you write about her in your book. let's take a few phone calls. we are in rushville, indiana. our first caller is kurt from ohio. welcome to the conversation. >> thank you and good evening.

this is a great program and i hope that a lot of people take advantage of this great service that you are giving to the american people. my question is -- i have a couple of comments -- the first one is being in the suburbs of akron, ohio, i wanted to know a little bit more about wendell willkie's role as an attorney for the goodyear tire and rubber co. where he, during that time, was heavily involved in akron city democratic politics. my second comment is with wendell willkie being the dark horse candidate at that time in 1940, do you see history kind of repeating itself 72 years later with the emergence of herman cain as the new dark horse for the republican party with no political experience and a business background, that sort of thing? he is starting to look better compared to governor romney and governor perry and all the others who are basically career politicians.

>> you bring up two good points. thanks for the call. he grew up here in indiana, but moved to akron. ohio was a key part of his career. >> he followed the economic growth. that is what happened. why did he go from indiana to ohio? because rubber was there. because tires were there. we think of our cities now -- when he got to akron, he could not find a bedroom. it was that packed during the automobile boom. he parked on a chair that first night if you read his biography. it was so tight, going so fast with the automobile industry.

that tells you a lot about what he was for. he was for economic growth. from there to new york with a law firm to serve a new industry, utilities, and then to have that utilities company. commonwealth and southern. >> herman cain was on the fox news channel today. one of the questions was the republican party has not nominated a businessman since wendell willkie. you have a direct link today. >> i always like when people make connections between present-day politics or issues and the past. i am reluctant to do that except to say this -- it is too early to identify the dark horse because at this point in 1939, in the fall of 1939, very few people had ever heard of wendell willkie. many thought he was still a democrat. he did not emerge until the spring of 1940. if we are following the format, we would have to wait until the spring of 2012 to know if we

have a dark horse. >> the conventions of a 1940 were very different from the conventions of 2012. >> the outcomes were less certain than now. we seem to be more settled in a primary system. when they aren't getting there, they are discounting of what already happened. >> ron is starting us from maryville, washington, to talk about the provincial campaign of wendell willkie. >> thanks for taking my call and for having this series. it is outstanding. i want to provide three corrections or clarifications to statements that have been made. number one, the statement that roosevelt was the first president to contemplate a third term. actually, woodrow wilson contemplated it as documented in his recent biography by john milton cooper. it may have been delusional, but he seriously contemplated it. it was after his stroke. secondly, i am pretty sure roosevelt was the assistant

secretary of the navy, not full secretary. >> we did not say -- >> third, willkie, i do not think, was the first non- politician republican nominee. i would specify hoover as being in that category, even though he did hold the cabinet post of secretary of commerce. he was never an elected politician, nor did he serve in the military. >> thanks for the call. first on herbert hoover, and also woodrow wilson. hoover was secretary of commerce before he was the nominee. woodrow wilson, the point about whether he was serious about a third term in 1920. >> i am writing a biography of calvin coolidge. wilson and wilson's crowd talked about a lot of things, but it was clear to the party that he could not be the next president. that is a little bit of a different category. we did not say roosevelt was secretary of the navy, we said he served the secretary of the

navy, but we appreciate the caller. >> james is joining us next from stanford, north carolina. >> i just wanted to comment -- in the fall of 1940, willkie did a whistle stop tour of florida. i happened to be a western union trainee in melbourne, florida. he came through melbourne. he was on the rear platform of the train. a crowd of 50 or 60 people had the opportunity to shake hands with wendell willkie. that was either september or october of 1940. that was the comment i wanted to add. very interesting. >> do you remember when you saw him on the whistle stop tour, what did you think when you saw him campaign? did he leave an impression? >> i was a kid, 18 years old.

i was in awe. here is a guy could be the president of the united states. i am 89 now. i was 18 then. just a kid. i was very impressed. it was an appearance on the back of that train. it was really something. it was something very, very special. >> james, thank you for that call. these are some of the images of the crowds swarming around wendell willkie. he also used the media. a couple of points that nbc radio carried almost 30 hours of the republican convention in philadelphia. television was introduced in the 1940 convention. viewers in new york, schenectady, and a few other cities could see the republican convention. the republican party put together some advertisements used in movie theaters around the country. >> politics are always changing. there are always new techniques, new possibilities, and new media.

willkie was very astute. it was part of his experience as a businessman to work with the media and new opportunities to make your case. he was excellent at that. he was helped by the time the people he had around him in the campaign, or the best of the best. >> he was not a farmer, but he went after the agriculture vote. >> the agricultural vote was still very important in 1940. there are a very large number of farmers in america and they are very important -- they vote. farm policy was central to presidential elections for any president expected to have a chance of victory. they must pay attention to that. that is what we see these photographs of willkie standing in front of a corn field or in front of pigs. some wags said that all the hogs in rushville started to pose as soon as the cameras showed up, they were so accustomed to willkie in with the hogs and the cornfields.

he was quite honest. one of the nice things about willkie is he was honest, including never actually pretending he was indeed a farmer. >> the major issues in 1940 -- what were they, amity shlaes? >> there was the war. are we going in? do we have to go in? if london is to be bombed, maybe we have to go in. even though we remember that world war i was such a horror. war always trumps economics. to the economy. the recovery had chosen to stay away. those are the big ones. one thing about willkie, we know the phrase "happy warrior." we know it from the democrats, roosevelt, al smith. willkie was a happy warrior. he was basically not a vicious man. what the gop have learned in the 1930's was that they failed through bitterness.

they failed through the liberty league. all the attacks on the new deal were bitter and angry. willkie represented a new way of being for the party, not just to smear roosevelt, but to take him on with facts and without too much ad hominen. i do not know if you call that media or character. i call it character. >> "gone with the wind," one of the many movies in theaters in 1940, if you had gone, you very well could have seen this advertisement put together by the republican national committee for wendell willkie. >> whether you are in oregon or florida, new jersey orcalifornia, you have a right to know how well your republican candidates ffor president and vice-president understand agricultural problems and their personal interest in

farming. for this purpose, this motion picture has been produced. ♪ the two most talked-about men in american life today are the central figures of this picture. wendell willkie of indiana and charles mcnary of oregon. mr. willkie visits with a family of one ofhis partners. a farmer. it is a hot day. mr. willkie requested to pump before the tour began. he does not let anything stand in his way. these are practical corn belt farmers. his interest in 4-h and america's young people is genuine. in them, he sees the future of america. >> from the republican national

committee -- amity shlaes, he described himself as a liberal. this is an important point to understand. liberals in the 1940 was a very different term. >> what he meant was the liberalism of the individual -- your individual rights. human rights. that was a big thing for him. not the liberalism of the group. not the progressive bloc. he saw an opposition there. that is quite different from liberalism today where we have blocs such as farms or veterans. that is what he was seeking to define, especially in the middle of the 1930's, as he was becoming a political personality. >> richard is joining us from wellington, florida. we are with amity shlaes and

james madison. >> you mentioned the important role of the publication houses in new york. henry luce and so on. i visited the elite special collections and went to the willkie files. i was very struck by the role and campaign of people like john whitney, william harding jackson, the managing director of the whitney co., and of william mcilvaine in the chicago area. i would like to know if you would talk a little bit about their role in the campaign and, more broadly, the level of support from the melbourne and b. j. h. whitney companies in new york that stem from mr. willkie's time in new york in 1949 and maybe before that. thank you so much. >> he actually passed away in 1944. his years in new york and the people who supported him. >> wendell willkie was a corporate man.

he worked at commonwealth and southern, which was a company put together to wire the southern united states. it would not be surprising if you heard names like that associated, but not all establishment republicans with money worked for willkie. many worked for the other names we heard. some of them came around when they thought he would become the candidate. that is different. you see people jumping in at various points. >> the sale of the tva and the impact it had on willkie and his view of government -- >> it really starts in the 1920's. the south is dark. the rest of the country is lit up. the rest of the country is beginning to wonder how we light up the south. the company was put together to

supply the answer. there is a bit of governance orchestration because there were different laws in the states. they thought they could do it. they went on the stock exchange. it was when the dow jones first started. that was the internet of the time. another view coming from the government was the government should supply the power. we light up the south -- the tennessee valley authority. willkie found himself as head of commonwealth and southern in a wrestling match with one of the

heads of the tva said who would light up the south? they were meeting at the cosmos club. the gentleman lawyer from indiana -- there they were at the cosmos club trying to make friendly like two lawyers. willkie said my company will do some and your company will do some. lillianthal wrote that night in his diary, he did not get it. the government was to take over it all. that was the battle waged through the whole period. much of commonwealth and southern was sold to the government. willkie was declared the victor and the shareholders got money from the government. the question was was it really a victory or was it the annihilation of the private sector in the marketplace of the future, utilities? they took a big check to show his friends. i am not sure it was a victory for the private sector or the shareholders.

>> ruth is joining us from new york city. we welcome you to the conversation as we look at the life, career, in the 1940 campaign of wendell willkie. >> thank you so much for taking my call. it seems if every election cycle, politicians and pundits will cite wendell willkie. why does he still resonate through today's political environment? >> i would say it is the freshness, the newness that is inevitable. it is the dark horse standard we have been talking about. this is someone who is so different from vandenberg, taft, and the others. so vital, so energetic. he seemed so honest. one of my favorites stories about him is at a time even then when religion was important, candidates were expected to be churchgoers. when willkie was asked, he

said, "i generally sleep in on sunday mornings." that was an honesty many people found refreshing in 1940. >> in 1968, the ap said, "could it be another year of wendell willkie?" republicans were dissatisfied with the potential nomination of richard nixon. >> every few cycles the republican party is the ostracized party. when it gets tired of itself, someone comes from outside. the republican party is more affiliated with business and enterprise. enterprising people tend to turn out to these republicans because they are from the private sector. that will always be a factor. who is the 1968 republican they were thinking of? he never came.

we are still waiting for wendell willkie. he pushed roosevelt over into the war, to put it simply. willkie fought the war at to happen because what was going on in europe was wrong and we had to help fight the bad nazis. he was on the right side on that. that is refreshing, when someone comes in and speaks the truth about an important and difficult issue. i think that is what people remember. he forced roosevelt to do what roosevelt knew what was right to do, which was go into the war. he made roosevelt be a better roosevelt. >> more from wendell willkie as he talks about liberalism and, also, the roosevelt new deal. this another from the republican national committee, a series of films.

>> the doctrinaires of the opposition have attempted to picture me as an opponent of liberalism, but i was a liberal before many of those men heard the word, and i fought for the reforms of theodore roosevelt and woodrow wilson before another roosevelt adopted and distorted the word liberal. american liberalism does not consist merely of reforming things. it consists primarily of making things. we must substitute for the philosophy of distributed scarcity, the philosophy of unlimited productivity. i stand for the restoration of full production and reemployment in american private enterprise. present administration has spent $60 billion. the new deal stands for doing what has to be done by spending

as much money as possible. i propose to do it by spending as little money as possible. this is one issue in this campaign that i intend to make crystal clear before the conclusion of the campaign so that everybody in this country may understand the tremendous waste of their resources and money that has taken place in the last 7.5 years. >> amity shlaes, as you hear the words of wendell willkie, your thoughts? >> that liberalism which he described, which he differentiates from progressivism, modern liberalism, goes all the way back to the germany of his family. his family left europe, in 1848 or soon after, as social democrats or liberals to get away from prussian militarism. it is all about the individual and freedom coming straight through and down. some of us would call willkie the last liberal because he was the last big classical liberal in u.s. politics like that.

ronald reagan did not call himself a liberal. maybe someone called him a libertarian. the word changes meaning. the second was the economic specification of what he was saying. that does come from him. from the point of view of the firms, productivity is really important, we not only make the widgets, but we make them better. that will increase the standard of living for everyone instead of redistributing, which is the alternate. that is a very clear and sophisticated economic argument. it is not about just helping the middle class. it is more complex than that. more complex than what we hear from politicians in this campaign. >> amity shlaes is a columnist with bloomberg. jim madison teaches history at indiana university. our next caller is ted from

morristown, new jersey. go ahead with your question. >> did willkie feel that he got an inappropriate level of support in the general election from this nomination rivals, taft and hoover, and their people or was he too recently arrived in the party to engage the leaders the way a veteran republican politician would have? >> professor madison, you are shaking your head no. >> i do not think he got the support he wanted or deserved from the professional politicians. a little aphorism there comes from james watson said on hearing of the nomination, "it is all right if the town prostitute wants to join the church, but she would not expect to sing a solo on the first day." willkie was an outsider to senator watson. they never ever trusted him. they never got behind him. >> if you go back to the speech in elwood, indiana, he said, "you republicans." how did that resonate with the

republican base? >> i think some of them noticed there were called "you" rather than "us" or "we." because he was not a republican a year or two prior to that speech. he was a democrat. >> our next caller is from savannah, georgia. >> thank you for doing this program on wendell willkie. i believe he was far ahead of his time on many issues. first of all, civil rights. he was a great advocate of civil rights. if the country had followed his lead, we would have avoided a lot of the strife and dissension we had in later decades. during the war, he was a great advocate of ending colonialism. he wanted to prevent the european countries from reestablishing their empires in

the third world, particularly france and indochina. if we had not stepped into the shoes of france, we would have avoided the tragedy of vietnam and the war. finally, i wanted to mention, the one speech that he gave, who is a great believer in the idea that the way to fight unemployment was to encourage investment and growth. that would be the only way we would get jobs in this country. that is still relevant to what we are debating about today. i would be interested in hearing your panel discussion about those points. >> thank you, charles. amity shlaes. >> one thing that really resonates from one world when we look at it today, his book sold tremendously well about this time -- when he went to the middle east, he said the colonials here are too dominant. when we withdraw, there will be a vacuum. there'll be nothing for the people to return to. we need to help them build

democracy. he had a more cynical, cavalier attitude towards the middle east. when you hear the protesters in the middle east today, you go back to the errors we made in the 1940's and 1950's, not taking this seriously, squandering opportunity. his description of tehran and the number of babies who died because the water was not clean and the tyranny of their regime gets back to what we see today in many places of the middle east. and what we have not been able to address systematically. he was like an analyst of the arab spring years ago. it is striking. >> john from maryville, indiana. we welcome you. please go ahead. >> within six months of the election of 1940, willkie was totally unpopular with the

republicans merely because he had adopted roosevelt's foreign policy. he was pro-war. the republican party ostracized him completely, no matter how well he did in the previous election. when he toured europe, he went over to asia. republicans hated that, the regular republicans of all stripes. he called his campaign foreign policy statements "campaign oratory" before a congressional hearing in 1941. he ran again in 1944 for the nomination, but he had so embittered the republicans by becoming roosevelt's almost foreign policy agent, that he had no chance against dewey. he really was pro-roosevelt with regard to foreign policy. for the purposes of the campaign, he took an opposite position, but after the election, he came around and really endorsed roosevelt's

foreign policy, went over to england to store on behalf of roosevelt. in 1944, roosevelt and willkie had met. i think roosevelt wanted his endorsement. willkie held off. before the election he died, so he never endorsed dewey or roosevelt. >> you bring up a number of key points. we are going to talk about this book, "one world," and his post campaign visit to new york and its relationship with franklin roosevelt. you also brought up the 1940 fall campaign. let's touch on that. if we could. in the next hour, we will focus on the second part of your phone

call. the 1940 fall campaign. he went in with such great promise. he did not have a lot of support from the republican establishment. you touched on this earlier. basically, what happened? how did this unfold? >> roosevelt did have liabilities going into the 1940 campaign. he won in a landslide in 1936. the congressional elections in 1938 produced, i think, 81 new republican house members voting against roosevelt, voting against the new deal. the results of the court packing plan. that created a lot of bitterness, even among some democrats in america. then there was, as we talked about, this notion that two terms were enough. it was good enough for washington, it should be good enough for roosevelt. they thought about his arrogance, his power, and the big government he had created. roosevelt had liabilities in 1940.

willkie, a republican, might have been able to beat him. maybe willkie was the best possibility. >> willkie did not do it, in part, because he was running against his own former position as much as against his opponent. >> he did not have a good track record politically. >> he was pro union. he was with john l. lewis. he supported the war and then was against it and then supported it. he was quite inconsistent. the best way to see him is as a wonderful attorney who takes the best case, the clarifying case. he speaks truth to power about it. the case of for the market and the company was the one he made at the end of the 1930's. in the campaign, several different cases conflicted with one another. later tonight we'll talk about

some great cases that we still talk about today. his positions and what he did. he always stood for free market. he was always pro-war or no war. it is not right. he was a protean man. that was part of his charm. often right, often canny in the switch. it does not make for a good campaign. they could see he was like roosevelt. >> a lot more to talk about. we want to show you another piece of film. this is from the republican national committee as a way of trying to frame william willkie -- that childhood and roots of wendell willkie. we will come back and talk to david willkie about his grandfather. >> wendell willkie, born 48 years ago, emerges in response to the greatest demonstration of spontaneous support and our country has ever known. his grandparents, like the ancestors of many americans, fled the autocracy of europe to find liberty in this country. here in elwood, his parents practiced law. wendell willkie was born in a modest home like many americans.

he went to public high school just like many americans. his hard-working parents moved to this elwood home. he went on to success in law and business. >> some of the scenes from elwood, indiana. david willkie is wendell willkie's grandson. many say the resemblance is pretty amazing. do you think you look like your grandfather? >> not quite exactly. if i look at the mirror i think of myself as my own person. >> what kind of man was wendell willkie? describe his persona and what your family views of him as a politician. >> physically he was a large man some called him a big bear of a man. his brother was a heavyweight

roman greco wrestler in the olympics. as far as him, he always was tasselled. he would put on a suit and it would be rump led. >> what he was worried about was the idea. how to convey the idea. what is important about it? when do you win people over to your side? >> explain his indiana roots and where he went to college and how he began as a lawyer. >> he grew up in elwood, indiana. an interesting thing about him and his parents and family, not only was his father a lawyer but his mother became one of the first attorneys in indiana. her first case was against his fath father, husband and wife against each other. at the end of the day his mother

won, not surprising because she was a true driving force in the family. most of the family -- well, all of his siblings -- went to indiana university and they lived together and they were a vibrant part of the community of indiana university. they loved being on campus. the intellectual conversations. you had people like paul v. mcnutt that was there at the same time and became give of indiana. after he finished indiana university he took a job teaching history and coached kansas.ll in i never think of him as being truly the athletic person but one thing we have in indiana we like to think of ourselves as basketball players. he did that for a time before coming back to indiana university and going to law school. when he went to law school he was always challenging the process that was there.

he was at the top of his class, and when he graduated he was giving this speech to his commencement class and he chastise the the indiana general assembly and also the supreme court at the time. scandalous that the university department know what to do. they delayed giving him his diploma while they debated and let him go on eventually. but he was always one to exam the status quo. >> unlike earlier figures we are moving into the radio, film and tell investigation age. we have a chance to hear them speak and wendell willkie seemed to have a very strong speaking personality. david, willkie, can you elaborate on that? >> yes, absolutely. he was always forthright. he was drawn to the cameras as you can see during the clips that you have shown.

he relished in talking about different ideas to -- both in casual conversation but on the larger stage, too. when people are paying attention to him, it is almost that he got more energized. >> your grandmother was edith willkie. how did the two met? >> they met at a wedding here in rushville, indiana, right up the street from where we are now. they were both in a mutual wedding party together. he was drawn by her. she was a librarian by training, in her own right. and there was a natural romance that bloomed. >> we are coming to you from rushville, indiana, david willkie is the grandson of the 1940 republican presidential nominee one of 14 individuals c-span is focusing on. we are looking at the 1940 campaign franklin roosevelt seeking a third term and wendell

willkie getting the nomination on the sixth ballot in philadelphia. we will have more gone calls the next hour -- more phone calls in the next hour. let's take you to the scene here in rushville, in november of 1940, just down the street at the but ban hotel many -- at the durban hotel wendell wonderful came out to declare that franklin roosevelt was going to be elected to a third term. he conceded the election. we will follow that with dick luringer on wendell wonderful and his brand of republican politics. >> people of america, i accept the results of the election with complete good will. i know that they will continue to work as i shall for the unity of our people in the building of

national defense, in aid to britain and elimination from america of antagonism of every kind to the end that the free way of life may survive. > after that he became an ambassador for the united states. had a friendship with franklin roosevelt or something proximating that in which he was not a bad lose other. he was a winner in terms of our country and his ability to influence public views in other countries about the united states or, correspondingly, american views so we would not become isolationists and become withdrawn. >> the thoughts of senator dick luger and how he reviewed wendell wonderful and the republican party and a portion

of the concession speech. from that it appears that he expected to lose. >> well, the campaign began to go against him in october so i don't think the results were a shock to wendell wonderful or anyone following the campaign, no. >> after the election the relationship began it grow between president roosevelt and mr. willkie. >> willkie and roosevelt did move closer and closer together until willkie's death in 1944, particularly in areas of foreign policy and in supporting great britain before the united states went into the war. > one thing you notice when willkie goes to europe on a tour for roosevelt as his ambassador, the famous tour in 1942, is that he repeats the same behavior he did at his law cancel graduation.

roosevelt has begin willkie a stage and he goes to meet with stalin on roosevelt's behalf and he hears something from stalin that stalin wants a second front in the war and needs help and willkie says maybe, europe, this war needs a second front. that was not the u.s. policy. so he was dissing the person whom he was representing. he was an ambassador who dissed his and roosevelt didn't like attachment that was not the plan to have a second front for stalin. that was the upstart in willkie. he called it as he saw it. when he got to russia he said, need help aoeeople sooner. they can't wait for the armies it march up. throughout his life he played that role. and to roosevelt's credit he was able to manage for the most part an upstart like willkie. >> we have a call from phoenix, arizona. >> i would like to point out to

your audience that you are getting a very one-sided economic argument from the panel. mrs. shlaes is certainly entitled to her opinion but she is a well-known revisionist historian and she's several teams repeated tonight the canard that the new deal had failed. i would like to point out that in her book and i have it she conn seeds that it had worked. the spending was so dramatic that finally it functioned as keynes had opened and unemployment would drop from 22% to 14%. granted, 13% or 14% is still too high but to say when roosevelt came in with unemployment in the mid to high 20's and due to

keyn keynesian deficit spending earmarks it as a failure is unfair. she's made career of repeating these canards and i think it needs to be pointed out. >> we will give our guests a chance to respond. >> i don't think we need to get too personal about this. whether you are a democrat or a republican, the average of 13% to 14% is not acceptable now. the keynes iian spending, there was not that much of it because the government was not that big until we got to world war ii. the spending had some effect especially in 1936 it the caller is giving an interpretation i did not intend nor was visible in the text. but the 1930's were a bad period. the government didn't bring

recovery, neither by the unemployment metric nor by the dow did we recover. we sort of appeared to recover by the war but nobody called the war a recovery. that is all there is to say. >> i think that the new deal was phenomenal successful. my grandfather was a dirt poor farmer at the beginning of the and he was a dirt poor farmer in the end but in his barn he had a framed photograph of roosevelt nailed up and he called him mr. roosevelt with great respect. he was not an historian but as an historian i think the new deal achieved great prosperity and necessary regulation of government. i would rather talk about willkie after the election because i think that there much very interesting issues to cover there. >> we will go to our next caller. >> just as a footnote to the history of the 1940 campaign, one of the most politically

coura courageous strong supporters that which will well had in 1940 was a friends of mine rollinb. marvin, mayor of syracuse. syracuse was in the center of new york state which was dewey's political empire at that point. and it took a great deal of courage to defy an entire state political establishment which martin did. unfortunately, when willkie left dewey left no stone unturned to drag him out of political life and he tried to help willkie get going again in 1944 but eventually he said to me, my mistake was that i bet on a man with a weak heart. but it should be remembered that he had a very strong political supporter in the center of new york state and a friend of mine

and i think that is a footnote. >> thank you. you bring up an important point we touched on in the last hour but the relationship in 1940 and in 1944 between tom dewey and wendell willkie. >> not a happy relationship. i don't think they ever reconciled. nor, as we said earlier did many of the professional politicians. the best indication of that is the 1944 republican convention no one bothered to invite wendell wonderf wendell willkie to speak or shall a delegate. >> another aspect of the roosevelt administration the lend lease program. what was that? >> before we went in we agreed to help. so, we gave money, loaned money, to europe, sent arms so that england could defend herself. that is the simplest way to put it. then we went into the war with

pearl harbor and that is an important spending program. one thing that is happening during this period is up until 1938 or so, 1939, roosevelt is fighting with business, chasing them. john maynard keynes and roosevelt chasing business, why don't you nationalize them or them alone. what is the use of chasing them around the lot every other week? so, he was always the trg -- tiger who scared business. but certainly he needed business to wage his war. and instead of being the enemy they were in the white house aluminum, not being prosecuted. making airplanes, making boats. making material for europe and the u.s. that was an important change because they knew they were allies of the government. that is an important feature in the recovery. in early 1941 wendell wonderful travels to london.

how unusual is it for the democratic president to select his republican opponent. >> very unusual. he travels as a private citizen but carries a letter of introduction from roosevelt to churchill and he sees london when it has been badly battered. he goes to the cliffs of dover and sees the antiaircraft guns and gets a sense of what the war is for england and what the british are doing to stand against hitler alone. he brings that mental -- message back and makes a powerful case for helping england through lend lease. >> here he is before congress. >> if we are to aid britain effectively we should provide her with five destroyers a

month. we should be able to do this directly and swiftly rather than through the rigmarole of dubious legalistic interpretation. now, i'm as much opposed as any man in mark to undue concentration of power in the chief executive. and may i say i did my best to remove that power from the present executive. personally, i would have preferred to see congress, whether through this bill or others, instruct the president to lend or lease these things. >> amity shlaes, february of 1941, what was the country going through and what was wendell willkie thinking as he testified before congress and realizes what has been happening in and especially london? >> when we came out of world war i, this is a country that said said never, never again.

trench warfare is senseless. 30% or more of the veterans were disabled from world war i and america set its mind against war. yet when we had the evidence -- and that is what willkie was bringing home of what was happening to britain, so like us in many ways -- and the evidence of hitler's utter audacity with poland suddenly we knew we had to help. that was a big change for the u.s. that was the reason for the republican isolationism. there was a sense to the league of nations and a sense of isolationism because world war i had been so incredibly wasteful of lives and resources. but there comes a moment when you have to step in and willkie crystallized that for us. that is a chris salization of te

tphaoneed -- crystallize says fe need of our entry. >> i enjoyed the book on the new deal. there were some books written many years ago but she's taken up the hand of those that have doubts. one attacked you from the left but i would like to attack you from the right. i don't understand the love affair you have with wendell wonderful. i don't comprehend it. in the case of foreign policy after the war he was a disgrace. going to the soviet far east and looking at a forced labor camp and saying how wonderful conditions were was a bit much. and i would have thought that the republicans would have been better served by someone who had a little more level head as far as our international commitments were concerned particularly after the beginning of the war. at the same time, i think it is

a bit much to champion a republican who the base really was very resentful of. that is my two cents. i will hang up and listen to the comments of the author. thank you. >> thank you for the call. jim madison, is that sentiment pretty typical of what many republicans felt? >> a lot of republicans would have said that and maybe in stronger words. they called willkie naive, that he was taken in, he was just a tourist. the soviets especially manipulated him, so did the chinese. he was inexperienced around not up to the level of international diplomacy and knowledge. >> yet he had received more votes than herbert hoover in 1932 and alf landon in 1936. >> he had received a lot of votes for somebody to allege that he had no support. this whole television show is a love affair with wendell wonderful becauses interesting

on a number of levels. that do not mean he is perfect or consistent. as we said before, he is like an attorney. he moves from case to case and those cases are not always consistent. narr every book is different. but i do like wendell wonderful. we will all persist in liking him. we are making a cartoon version of the forgotten man and the artist made a best of wendell willkie. he got so inspired by him. there is something about willkie, inconsistent as he is, disappointing as he is, that is very alluring to people. i think because he talks about what is possible, not merely what is realistic. so he is an aspirational figure in many different walys. one professor said willkie is

the personification of this 14-part series, an individual many may not know a lot about but had a significant impact in his tame. >> i think that is a very good point. let me follow up with what amity said. i think that at his best willkie brings us to our better natures. he asks more of us. that is one thing i like most about him. he holds out the ideals of ameri america, and ultimately the ideals of the human race, of the condition of the world. so, there's a lot to like about willkie even if you want to think's little naive and uninformed at the time. >> next call. >> i take you back to the glamour and excitement of that day in philadelphia at the convention hall. i was there. i was there with my father, who had a unique involvement at the

convention. he sort of orchestrated what was known as the stampeding of the galle gallery. as a kid, i was up there with instructions on the cue to rise up and begin the chant of "we want willkie." and, of course, this is before television -- well, television had just come on the scene. but from a national standpoint and particularly for the delegates, to hear this raucous crowd from the gallery stampeding a convention put them in a mood, although it did take of ballots, to ultimately nominate wendell wonderf wendell. >> bill, thanks for your call. a 26-year-old young republican

from michigan, gerald ford, also was in attendance. he talked to c-span about that in 2000 as he went back to philadelphia for another republican convention. >> that's right. >> did you want to talk about the excitement that willkie generated in the 1940 convention? >> no, i will let that topic go. >> we will go to oliver from massachusetts. >> i would like to commend c-span. it is one of the greatest things on television. i didn't know a lot about wendell willkie. this is very interesting. i seem to remember his name was spelled with one l in my history books but i want to ask mrs. shrmrs. mrs. shlaes, was his mistress repeat ed repeated to mamie. >> he was the ex-wife of a hit

remember van doren. the reason she is interesting is not mere gossip but because she was his news. he began talking to this literary editor and he started writing about the english classic liberals because that is his way of thinking of what was wrong with politics in the u.s. and it was too much about groups and too much about individuals and he started to write these articles and talking to irita and he got his political bearings and began it speak politically and write politically and not just write articles but write manifestos and meet people who then again to back him. so somebody comes into your life

that is a transition person and she was for him at that point such a person and helped him to clarify his ideas. >> and in your become she was also involved in calvin coolidge's become tour. >> irita was a wonderful book editor. there are figures who appear over and over in coolidge and willkie the great advertising genius, bruce spartan who wrote of coolidge he represented the silent majority. that is a phrase we may associate with willkie, we certainly associate it withing a knew -- withing agnew. and she wrote of coolidge. so there is a see with the literary people around the politicians and those people last a long time, sometimes

through many candidates. >> we want to listen to one more piece of sound from franklin ell laano roosevelt's recordin, he is trying to figure out whether his relationship with irita van doren's relationship should bring up. >> it was a time when it was not common to reveal them. reporters knew about them. others had them including roosevelt himself, of course. and the gentleman's agreement is you didn't write about that, you didn't report that. whether roosevelt is going to try to use that against willkie is what this tape is about. one of the recordings with president roosevelt on the affair that wendell willkie was having with irita van doren.

>> professor madison, two points, playing dirty politics, the words from that conversation the president of the united states wondering whether edith willkie was hired to come back and campaign for her husband. >> all the evidence is that edith willkie loved her husband

and remained with him to the very end. it is also the case that after wendell willkie's death aoedith had a part in her apartment and invited irita van doren to that party. these were adults behaving as adults. not ways anyone needs to approve but that was their life and personal life. the other point i wanted to make is it was a romantic relationship but it was a very, very important intellectual relationship and she was exceptionally important to his thinking and to his politics and to his life. >> we have a call from utah. >> i'm curious as to why wendell willkie's relationship with mad mad madam chang hasn't been brought

up. >> i think that the answer is we don't really know what happened. this is on the one world trip in late 1942 and included a stop in china and visit with chiang and his wife. at one point in the evening we know that he and she left by themselves and were gone for several hours. there's been statements by some people that there was a relationship there but the evidence for that is very, very tricky. >> that was part of what you indicated north africa, russia and china the one world tour that led to the best selling book. explain the significance of this second trip in 1942 for wendell wonderful. >> roosevelt sent willkie on a

tour. he went all over the world, including to china, also to russia to see stalin, to the middle east also. often to places that were also a little bit tricky. close to the battlefield. he kind of moves around to the front in an american jeep in russia, actually, with the russian general. said what are you defending her, sir and the russian general said we are not defending, we are attacking. so he was class right at the battle. that was an fortune forty tpaoeug -- fortifying expression of hope with china in play and the book that he wrote, "one world" was an enormous success. it didn't just sell 50,000 or 100,000, it sold close to a million copies. and the antagonist from the

t.v.a. asked him how come your book sold so well, the other politicians, everyone was in awe of what an imprint he made with this concept of peace now, one world and why that happened was we were now in the war. pearl harbor had happened. we were in the war and everyone very soon was thinking about what kind of peace we should have after what was in professor madison's book sketch we were framing had you to make the world hopefully safe for democracy and make the next war and next world war not come so fast, create all the ideas that you hear that were formulating in people's minds and people was one of the first formulators. >> david willkie, you read your grandfather's book. did it resonate so much so in 1942 and 1943?

>> there were several reasons that it resonated. number one is he took it upon himself to visit all different war fronts at the same time. here we are in the second world war, and if we think about that time period, no one person had traveled around the world. nobody had reported to the american people the struggles of different people. why were we in this war? why did we keep going through this war? i want to go back to some of the conversations that just happened between amity and jim and talking about my grandfather and his development. and over time he did develop, he did change in his thought process of what he went through and i think the american people did too. think of the american performance going back and looking at them during the depression and moving into world this was a different place. and that is where "one world"

came into play. here was a view into different parts of the world that people had not seen before. people had not traveled outside of their farms in the way people are able to do now and so easily. and to talk about these faraway places, whether it is baghdad, chun king.is on the front in northern africa. they all came into play. >> to give you a sense of what the country was dealing with he said it is like a beleaguered city living in high walls. i have been outside the walls, then he tells the story of what he saw. >> he continued to talk about at that time. one theme was national boundaries were becoming less and less important. countries in and of themselves and it was more commerce that was going to rule the day.

that is more of how that commerce does come into play. you see that now in the national discussion, even here in rushville, you have a company that is selling things halfway around the world to baghdad right now. that idea that wendell willkie had during those time periods is much of the world we live in today and that is described in the back. >> if our audience is interesting in reading the back, a book that was published 70 years ago how can they get a copy? >> they can e-mail here to the historical society. i believe it is rush historical at frontier.com. >> let me take our audience back to a couple of blocks to a home you spent many years greg -- growing up in rushville. this is a place where he came back and talked about his one world tour.

>> i want you to remember we can only have one president at one time and one foreign policy at one time. it does no good to say of the presidents of the united states as was said last night. th that is an act of hypocrisy. no man could act from that. the isolationists originally opposed the expansion of our arms, they opposed the passage of the lease-lend bill. they opposed the passage of the selective service act. it is the policy they advocate had been adopted, the united states today would be facing a victorian naziism in a worldwide

conflict in which we might ultimately be madrid. >> david willkie, as you see your grand father and the message that he was delivering to those residents of rushville, your thoughts. >> he wanted to bring toes thoughts directly here to the american people and middle say there are those other places that become so important. and i think it is common wisdom if america had not entered the war at the time that it did what would europe have looked like at the time. would hitler have tend continu? done?er would stalin have tkop so, for wendell willkie to be here in rushville, indiana, if he couldn't talk to the people here in rushville, he thought that this was most important to go on to other places, other

cities throughout the country, it would be much harder to do. >> his remarks 70 years ago this month, october of 1942, did the book face criticism? >> it did. it did sell millions of copies. liked it but the criticism was deep and endures in a sense. america was very isolated before the war and there were many during the war who still believed that america was best as america alone and not part of some larger entity like an international organization, a u.n. as it came to be known. there are many americans of this generation who had never been out of the country, who had never been out of the state or the county in which they were born. so the provincialalism is what he is trying to explain. why the farmers of russia, for example, how the farmers of russia live not very different

from the farmers of rushville, indiana. they are human beings and we have some obligation and self-interest and large are interest to understand that and act on that. >> we want to thank the rushville historical society for hosting us here tonight. we will continue to provide the e-mail if you want to get more information about wendell onderful -- wendell willkie or purcha ing the book. joins us from ne winston-sal winston-salem. >> i was in the mail room of the roosevelt white house. i read the incoming mail and the entry into the war was a very heavy issue at that time. the public was very much against it. we received from 7,000 up to 15,000 letters a day most of which opposed entry into the

war. only pearl harbor turned the public opinion around. but also i want to go back to the selection when willkie gave his concession speech. i will never forget how tired he sounded, how heavy his voice was when he said i tried my very best to defeat franklin roosevelt and i could not do it and he apologized to the nation for not doing so. so, i just wanted to make a comment that i was an actual person involved in the issue at the time. >> wayne, you have added an important dimension to our conversation, another amazing call. >> one thing about won world, the anti-u.n. people hate it because it lays out the framework of international organizations of all kinds.

but there is also a thick strain of democracy in it. so you see how many images came out of willkie. one was international organizations. some are hot on that. but the push for democracy is very important up to today and that is the astoundingly modern part of "wone world" that he ses through the government to the people whether they are in russia or the middle east with that democracy component. it is very similar to the analysis today of the problems of the world to finding ways for democracy when there is violence as we saw with gaddafi do you we declare it a victory for or not.y you heard obama say it is probably a victory but it is a hard call because it is so violent. kevin from o to california.

>> could you have your guests speculate on what might have had willkie won the election? >> we will go to professor madison on that. >> as much as i admire and respect him, i'm personally glad that he did not win. we really don't know what would have happened but i think the odds are pretty good that roosevelt was a better wartime leader, better prepared to lead the nation at war than wendell wonderful would have been. >> we will go to michael next in fargo, north dakota. >> i was a little late getting to the program but as i understand it wendell willkie has never held political office. so that i would be curious if his vice presidential nominee was chosen for political experience to help balance the ticket or how he came to be appointed. >> thanks for the call.

his first choice was not selected so it came to the party establishment to come to him. how did this come about and who ultimately did he choose? >> mcnary was a traditional republican in many ways, far more acceptable to the rank and fill of the republican party listen. so, i think the guest is right on. >> jim in washington, d.c., you are next. >> yes, very interesting program. i would like to address two questions that were raised and one is that wendell willkie was named in the "newsweek" article in 1967 as a model or a candidate that year. that model was george romney. he was the candidate in the republican primary but he dropped out because he made a

remark about the vietnam war. he was an industrial executive, head of american motors, and had never really served in public office before. but he ran in the early days of the republican primary against nixon and did tphnot, of course win. >> but he did serve as the governor of michigan. please go ahead. >> just one other quick one. the other president who ran for a third term was u.s. grant. he had been president for two terms, sat for a term and was a candidate at the republican convention in 1880. he lost to james garfield. so, that is the other president who did seek a third term.

>> amity shlaes and we had teddy roosevelt who ran for another term under a different party after he left the white house. >> very much involved with coolidge, because calendar i think served under harding and harding, unfortunately, died and coolidge became president and won in his own right in 1924. so, coolidge cover run another term. the same issue confronted roosevelt, easy call. a democrat always runs again if they are popular and coolidge chose not to run. that is a famous decision that is normally attributed to personal depression or exhaustion. but what i discovered is he chose not to run because of george washington because absolute power corrupts absolutely because the executive gets too use to the office and yes men and that was the concern people had over f.d.r. that

willkie was the expression of, that you do continue to state that the state is me. >> you can get more information by logging on to c-span.org and click on the contenders series or go to our site and get more on this looking at presidential candidates who ran for office, lost but changed american history. next is helen from cape may, new jersey. go ahead, please. >> i'm a college teacher, my been assigned to watch and it will be so envious that i'm getting to speak to amity shlaes. i loved the book. i'm looking forward to the coolidge book. my question is, what is the percentage of the electorate that came out to vote in that election. was it a big percentage or not? and can't wait to read the coolidge book.

>> we do have the electoral college totals and we know it was a landslides for franklin roosevelt. >> but we don't know the share of the turnout and we apologize for that. we are going to supply that on our website within 24, helen. we are sorry, we owe you. >> there you see the results with willkie receiving just over 22 million votes and franklin roosevelt just over 27 million votes. jim madison. >> willkie did better than his republican predecessors but it was a clear victory for roosevelt. >> another aspect of your grandfather his view of civil rights 20-plus years before we saw the civil rights movement led by dr. martin luther king. >> my grandfather was certainly ahead of his time when it came to thinking about civil rights and the rights of all people. it was part of his code. but one of the places i wanted to show you was just a campaign

piece in the 1940 campaign where he talked about just race relations and in a very direct and raw way. this was an advertisement that was used in african-american press at the time of how he reached out to that part of the electorate. >> we try to get a sense of what was going on in the country and let me ask you specifically in this part of the country in indiana, the k.k.k. and its role in society here. >> certainly the k.k.k. had a very strong presence here in indiana. there was a major push to push them out, especially within the party.can people like the helmke family was instrumental and following in the which will well footsteps of what came to be the division in small towns. there was an african-american population here in rushville and continues to be and throughout all towns.

but the races didn't mix, didn't intermingle and there was always a fearful nature of it all. and from wendell willkie, not only his thought process coming beforehand, before the election, but afterwards of what that took him looking on the one world trip. >> what about his views on domestic issues? >> i think david is being unduly modest about his grandfather's position on civil rights. he was well in advance of just about every notable person in this country. because eleanor roosevelt with be the exception. he was very much ahead of his time on civil rights. and it comes out of some of the same things that were in "one world" about democracy, anticolonialism. offense strongly opposed and insisted that colonialism had to disappear in the name of democracy and he insisted that

equality could only be achieved if there were equality at home. so he connected this international one world idea with the necessity of justice for all in the united states. he walked the walk. he spent a lot of time working with the naacp. he worked with hollywood filmmakers to remove the horrible racism in hollywood films in the 1930's and 1940's. an advocate ie was for racial justice, a supremely important advocate, long before most americans, white americans were in that position. >> call from columbus, ohio. >> you just took the words out of my mouth. i was just about to say that. i was about to say what did wendell wonderful say about the african-american community in indiana and how racism was and how the ku klux klan was. i also want to say one thing.

i love watching your show because i learn every day as a young african-american man with a young family that owns a home and i try to teach my stepson and my daughter about the history of presidential things and people who can come up and you -- i tell them every day you can make it, you can do it. and i'm just thankful that you have this show on here and talking about this great man that -- i don't know anything. my granddad is 89 years old and he tells me things about history and about america. but i'm so glad you said that about the african-american community in indiana which was a racist ass-sorry about my language but was very racist toward african-americans at that time in the 1940's. and i thank you for bringing this up and please keep going. >> john, thanks.

>> thank you. >> thank you. david willkie, he is talking about his grandfather. what about your grandfather as you hear that sentiment? >> well, he thought that everybody was responsible just from their own meritocracy of what they would do for their own lives. and that was part of his dream, is that anybody anywhere in the world should have that individual freedom. that was a core part of his value. he thought if you helped somebody some place else in the world it with help but it was through the hard work and struggle that we would better ourselves as americans. going on to the race relation part, certainly, even after he died wendell willkie, the naacp was housed in the willkie freedom house in new york city. they kept that mantle that was there just because he was so far

out in front of every place e e else, including being in hollywood and pushing the ideas of race equality. certainly as we look at what came up in the 1950's and 1960's one would think what would have been different in willkie had been president. >> and the other question is would this republican party accept a wedge -- wendell willkie, we asked that of dick luger. republican here in indiana. >> i doubt whether wendell willkie would win today, in part because he was what i would call a moderate. he was a person who really was looking after the good of the whole country. and there was not the same sharp partisan fever that is attached to his candidacy or his rhetoric. he had a very sound business attitude and that is why he was

successful. he understood the american free enterprise system and job kraegs, the things that -- job creation and the things that are important as we try for an economic recovery now. >> the comments of senator luger and wendell willkie's politics and the republican party today. >> wonderful comments from the senator. beg to difficult on the question of whether a businessman candidate would resonate today. he would. maybe in is herman cain, maybe it is somebody else. but what there is among people looking at both parties is the desire to go down to the bottom level to find somebody who started a firm or worked for a firm to come from the outside to look at the economy, not from washington. it is a very similar mood when you had a long period of non-recovery you look outside of washington for the answer and that is why someone like that would get a reception i would argue. he ran again in 1944 briefly. >> briefly. and not at all successfully.

because the republican establishment just had no use for him. because of his continued support of roosevelt after the 1940 election. in fact, there was some talk, not much more than talk, of roosevelt, who had his own with southern democrats especially, of franklin roosevelt and wendell willkie coming together and forming a new political party. now, there's an idea to think about for the future of america. >> the next all is erica in washington, d.c. go ahead, please. >> high, c-span. thank you for doing this. i have a bigger picture question if we could go back. i think i understand the things that shaped his economic beliefs and background but do you know if there were any specific events, ideas, that really shaped his foreign policy prior to the events of world war ii that brought back that international view? >> the foreign policy of wendell

willkie. >> i would mention his family background and their own experience fleeing prussian military. there are stories that his grandfather being beaten and they deplored and that comes through their children especially wendell. so, you could say german americans who thought freedom and wanted to preserve it. >> david, do you want to respond to that? >> certainly within the family thinking about wendell and his life growing up being part of world war i and his time period in the army opened his eyes. he intellectual life of the fami family. we wendell grew up and the whole family his father would wake up his children by reading shakespeare quotes every morning and that is how they would start

their day. so, it was a constant era of intellectualism, of thought process that allowed him to look outside of just his own surro d surroundings in elwood, indiana. >> duncan joins us from ohio. >> i was just curious about any relationship willkie may or may not have had with huey long. >> are you familiar with that? >> i know that he defended huey long from criticism and even governmental charges against him. we have not talked about this but willkie defended all sorts of individuals who were unpopular. he defended american nazis, american communists. is his kind of liberalism. the freedom of speech and thought, the right to be an american and hold many, many different views, very different from his own views. he was, in my judgment, a great hero and great patriot in that regard.

>> born in 1892. david willkie, how did your grandfather pass away at the age of 52? >> he had a series of heart attacks at the end of his life. certainly he was a work awho will like. he never stopped. diet, exercise, and genetics all we know much more today about those things certainly played a role in his death. >> i think that wendell willkie was an exceedingly hard-working person. 24-7. he also lived hard. he smoked heavily. i have seen pictures of him with camel cigarettes on the desk and we know what coffin nails they are. he drank heavily. he didn't live what we would as a healthy life. >> david willkie, he is buried just a few miles from where we're located? >> yes rb, it is a beautiful si that was described in the new york press as being looking out over the prairie although we are

not quite frahery. it has a stone granite brook laid out and talking about his life and how he lived his life and what he thought was the future of the world and what it should be, talking about the ideas that we mentioned about equality, about the america was the place to be. why? because you could dream and in america you could make them come true. >> amity shlaes, if you could ask him one question, what would it be? >> how do we bring our country together this time so that we have a political process that yields economic recovery? that we get past calling each other names to formulate a policy that gets the country to grow again. >> hugo joins us from stamford, connecticut. welcome to the program. >> first of all, i met wendell willkie at my grandfather's home

with thomas e. dewey, two very fascina public personages. i was 10 years old at the time and i do remember distinctly both of these personalities. my grandfather was the publisher of an italian newspaper in this country. but i won't get into history. an f.d.r. republican, my grandfather. my great uncle was a socialist. but that is beside the point. the point is that i was terribly impressed as a young boy with this man. i was always in the political environment and intellectual environment and educational, historical, educational. but he impressed