tv Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN January 5, 2012 6:00am-7:00am EST
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>> thank you for coming to new hampshire. one of the basic premises of everyone running for the candidacy is the repeal of the affordable care act, or obamacare. the question was asked at one of the republican debates to ron paul about what he would do about a person with an illness that they could not afford the treatment. do your market-based reforms of health care, where they>> i belf opportunity as opposed to the equality of result. i believe in america that we believe in freedom and responsibility. i believe in free people and free markets.
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that does not mean the government does not have a role. of course it has a role. the role of a referee. referees run up and down the sides of a football game and throw a penalty when something is wrong, but they are not the quarterback. what i put forth over the years, it started back in 1992. i worked with a guy who is now the governor of ohio. we started a program that is now called help savings accounts. every dollar your employer spends on insurance is not taxable to you. if your employer gives you that same amount of money -- pays it
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to you, i should say. you have to go out and buy your own insurance. you have to do with with after tax and dollars. so, the idea of having a system where we treat everybody the same, and so we give tax credits to the uninsured so we can provide an equality in the tax code about how everyone is treated. i supported system that allows that. that is why i would get rid of the existing tax code. go two ways. 10%, and 28%. why at that level? because that is the top level that ronald reagan put in place. it is good enough for ronald reagan, it is good enough for me. then there would be a five
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deductions -- one for health care, housing, pensions, children, and charity. a simple code and it puts in place to be able to support those who need help with health care. [applause] yes, ma'am. >> if you get elected, what would help is getting rid of some of the federal regulation. been made in america is a huge label i always look for. making something in america is almost impossible. but what was your feeling yournlb going -- what is your feeling with nlb going after boeing? >> i'm sure there'll be so friendly and hospitable to american business. what the president did was wrong.
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because, ok, she asked about manufacturing jobs and then in the end she asked about the national labor relations board. let me address both. manufacturing and national labor -- -- relations with respect to boeing. i believe against the rules of the senate, i can tell you having served in the senate, we do not allow, in fact we insist , for i think it is two weeks. if you are adjourned for that. time, the senate closes. then during that recess of the senate, the president can't appoint people. well, because we knew there were people out there on this consumer product safety commission that was created by -- at the consumer financial
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services commission or something like that, under dodd frank, which would allow enormous power to oversee all your financial transactions to determine whether you should have them or not. what loans you should make available to you. why? because you cannot be trusted with freedom. right? you cannot be trusted with freedom. we have to do these things for you. so, the senate republicans wisely said they would not adjourn. they would just recess. they would come back, perform the session on a regular basis. why? because obama cannot do this. but what our rules to president obama? he is such an important man. as he said today in ohio, with the minority blaming the republicans, when the minority stance in the way, i will do
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whatever the american people deserve. who cares with the constitution says? who cares what the rules are? i am the president. this is pretty scary stuff. and i hope that the united states senate does what they are supposed to do. they should go and take the president to court. this is not something that the president should get away with. [applause] let me answer her second question about what we will do about things made in america. that is up my alley. i had policies that were in sync
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with people i represented. my father -- my grandfather was a coal miner. i grew up in a blue-collar town. i understand the importance in this country of manufacturing. the importance of making sure that we're not just a knowledge based economy, but we treat a lot of products like these cameras or this microphone. great medical devices. but we are not making them in america. we are creating them. but we are creating them, but manufacturing them somewhere else. knowledge is accumulated, but not distributed. having travelled around the small towns in new hampshire and having represented the small towns in pennsylvania, guess where most of the manufacturing occurs in america? it occurs in small town america. and guess what area of the country has been hurt the worst
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over the past few decades? small-town america. why? the jobs have left. and with it, a quality of life that does not exist for blue- collar workers today. the average job in america pays $55,000 a year. the average manufacturing job pays $77,000 per year. when i was growing up as a kid, 21% of the work force was involved in manufacturing. it is now 9%. we cannot change it around. people say, that era is gone. why do we lose manufacturing? because we became uncompetitive as a country. sure, there was a time. look, i know. i was a republican. 97% conservative voting record. i ran a district that was 77% democrat. maybe you've heard of the valley. it was called the steel the
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valley of pittsburgh. there were mills lined along that river for as far as the eye could see. there is one of steel mill left. well, that area was economically devastated. that was my district. so, i know the impact of bad management decisions and bad labor decisions. it is not all of the government's fall. but in my opinion, it is now. in every other area of business, labor and management can compete and we do compete. and guess what? we are being held for getting those jobs back because we are 20% more expensive to do business in america for manufacturers then the nine top trading partners we deal with. the chinas, the mexicos, the candidas, the indians. how are we going to get those jobs back? excluding labor costs.
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let's put labor costs aside. we want higher labor costs. we want people to make better wages than they do it in vietnam. but we have to be competitive on the non labor side, which is taxes, regulations. cost of money, energy. i put forward a plan that takes the corporate tax for manufacturers -- for manufacturers, it eliminated. [applause] we take the regulations that are the real costly, expensive regulations. one the cost over $100 million. this agency that looks the regulations and prices them, everybody does. when you come out as a department, you have to get a cost of what your regulation is. during clinton and bush, the average number of regulations
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per year that cost over $100 million, and many of them cost billions, but the average number during the bush and clinton administration was $60 per year. last year under president obama, it was $150 per year. people want to know why this economy is suffering and struggling. because this administration is street is crippling them with regulation. why? because they know better than you. they do not trust you to make those decisions. they're going to prescribe how to do it. we are going to repeal all those regulations. we will have an energy policy that gets rid of subsidies. all of them for every type of energy source. [applause] we will open up areas for drilling and build pipelines. we will have the super energy we need. it's okay. yes, ma'am, in the back. >> i was wondering how you
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integrate your financial policies with climate change science? >> the question is on how do i get my policies with climate change science. i get asked this question a lot. if you look at the data, you can see some change in the climate. but then again, pick a point in history when you have not seen a change in the climate. climate does change. the question is, what is causing the climate to change? i think most scientists. in fact, i assume all scientists agree that there are a variety of factors. i don't think any scientist in the world would suggest there's not a variety of factors. i think the vast majority of scientists would probably say there are hundreds of causes to the climate change. why have we decided that this one particular factor -- carbon dioxide -- is in fact the tip of the tail that wags the entire dog? why from a scientific point of
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view to make the assertion that this is, in fact, what is the case, when there are a whole lot of other factors out there? that is the question. some people have very strong feelings that it is that. there are a lot of people that do not. thes even assume for purposes of argument, that they are right. then what would be a rational response? well, if you have a problem, and you want to craft something, what should that think that you are crafting do? solve the problem. do any of the proposed solutions put forward by al gore and his friends, do anything to solve the problem? even the scientists who support the theory will admit to you and that it does not do anything to
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solve the problem. so, or why support the solution? other than, you may have some other agenda that may be in place here. right? [applause] whathe let's go back to that agenda is. there is a common theme to what you should be hearing here. they do not trust you to allocate resources in a way that they believe is at best. so, they want to have a system that forces you to do what they think you should do in running your business and your lives. that is talked down in the basis i go back to the starting of america. comments that i made. america is based on the declaration of independence. rights from god, god-given rights that you used to provide for yourself and your family to pursue happiness.
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life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in the declaration. the sanctity of life and all life. liberty. to do what? to pursue happiness. happiness was defined at the time of our founders. not exactly the same definition it is today. it is not, actually. today, people think it is in joining, pleasure, what makes you feel good. if you read the dictionary definition of happiness at the time of our founders, you'll find one of the prominent dictionary definitions is -- to do the morally right thing. so, we have rights coming to us from god to have the freedom to pursue an to the right thing. to do what you ought to do, not -- the right thing. our constitution was made and it was this document with radical freedom. if you look at this constitution and the 10 amendments, radical
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freedom. real freedom never before seen in the history of the world. our founders were concerned. many of them said that it was radical. freedom was made for a moral and religious freedom. why? because if you do not do what you ought to do and just do what you want to do, and you have this freedom to do it, then you have this situation that this gentleman was talking about here with trading in congress. government is bigger, and bigger, and bigger, as we have seen. why? because you cannot be trusted any more. you do not do the right thing anymore. therefore, you need government to make sure that you do. that is the fundamental struggle here. when you believe we can be a country that is good and decent and moral. it was said that we would either be constrained by chains from
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within or chains from without. america at succeeded. it revolutionized the world because we believed in self restraint. we believed that doing what you ought to do. we have a government, under president obama, who fundamentally believes the difference. one final point. there was another constitution adopted at the same time of our constitution -- relatively the same time. that was the french constitution. another revolution that occurred. it was modeled after the american revolution. there was a difference. i think it went through -- what? 20 different constitutions? it was a document with radical freedom. but they did not have a declaration of finance like ours. -- a declaration of independence
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like ours. there is liberty and brotherhood, but no fathered. no rights from god that the government had to respect. they just believe that power should go to those who control. what did they do if they did not have rights and respect for each and everyone of you? they trampled you. it was the tyranny of the majority. we are a country that is going away, as we are, from those god- given rights that are the foundation of limited government. we are a country that is on our way to france. ok, let's get some young people. a young person right there. before you answer, how many more questions to we have? ok. [laughter] we can do breakfast.
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people who just feel absolutely compel that they must ask a question. i know will be the same number of hands. by the way, if you are as the question, you cannot again. a one question rule. one, too, for, 6, 7, 8. the really want to keep people here this long? we will keep going for a while and hopefully i will wear you down. we are not close to closing. go ahead. >> in from massachusetts. >> only new hampshire residents can ask questions. [applause] i am not barack obama. i will not make it retroactive rule. so, that rule did not exist when you got up, so you are allowed to ask a question.
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but respectively, and i trust you to be honest, i'm not going to have the police here check your id. [laughter] imac would you hire somebody or pass a law. i will trust you to be good, free people. go ahead. is this your question, or are you reading someone else's? >> as a candidate who champions family values, in response to you saying if you want another big government politician to support the status quo, you should vote for my uncle rick santorum. furthermore, if you receive the republican nomination, you will inevitably receive massive funding from corporations that you will need to defeat obama. with this in mind, how you plan to keep middle-class americans confident that you will stand up for them and not solely
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corporate interests? >> that is a good question. if you have seen my financial reports, i am not getting a lot of money from corporate interests or any interest for that matter. [laughter] we did eight votes for mitt romney in i was spending $30,000 on television. [applause] and by the way, i love my nephew. i have 35 nieces and nephews. so one out of 35 nieces and nephews is pretty good as far as i'm concerned. he is a ron paul supporter. i bless him. it is a phase. i understand it. [applause] we all go through those things. god bless him. it is wonderful. [laughter] the answer is we have gone out there. look, i have laid out my plans.
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again, i am a little embarrassed to say how little money we have been able to raise so far. although, today we have raised, at least according to the folks before we came in, we raced as much money today as we did -- had white -- 50% of all the money we raise, we raised today. [applause] the vast majority is on line. i do not think there is a whole lot of corporate interest donating online. we feel very good about the grass roots support we have got in today. hopefully as we go through the grass roots states to the bigger states where this is actually a significant percentage of folks will be able to influence
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voters. new hampshire is a small state. you go to florida, this does not quite match up. you have to have more resources and we are blessed for getting them. yes, the young lady in the back. >> i have something to ask you that is very important to me. when you are elected -- quacks she said when i am elected, i will repeat that. [applause] >> can you ensure that you will not infringe on a law-abiding citizen to own a firearm? >> i am a defender of the second amendment. [applause] i have a 100% voting record from the nra. i work with them very closely. i believe the second amendment is there to protect the first.
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it is very important that people understand this decision that was handed out by the supreme court is maintained. ruth is one of the four dissenters in heller. she gave a speech not too long ago and was musing about all the different court cases that needed to be overturned. the ones she focused on was the heller case. i would encourage you, those of you who are second amendment enthusiasts, to read that dissent. if barack obama is reelected and one of the five justices leaves the court in the next few years, then the heller decision will most assuredly be revisited. most assuredly, given the folks that barack obama is putting on this court, will reverse that
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right and go way beyond. read that this and about what government can do to control your access to guns. that is why discover -- why this election is important. we are done and owners. my wife is here. in a gun owner. my wife owns more than i do. we bought a couple of shotguns for my kids for christmas. i took my son out in iowa to go pheasant hunting. yes, i got for pheasants. in a big believer. that is part of my family. yes, sir. you have been pretty vigilant with your hand. >> in from kingston, new hampshire. for 20 years i worked in the insurance industry in massachusetts. our talk about health care
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reform and what it has done in massachusetts. rest assured, obamacare is a mirror image of what was done in massachusetts. >> why do you say that? >> because i know obamacare and i know mass reform. i know the obligations it puts on employers. i know what it is going to do to employers across america. one of the loss is the medical loss ratio. it tells insurance how much they have to spend on every premium. some states are putting and waivers to say, "give us a chance to catch up and get our books in orders." they said, no, too bad so sad. they have basically closed their doors. people have now lost their
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insurance. my question is this. if you get the nomination and you are in a debate with barack obama, would you be willing to stand up to him and tell him, president obama, you are a liar. [applause] >> i do not believe in calling people names. i do believe in ascribing fax 2 statements they have made. -- facts to statements they have made. if a statement they have made is untrue, i will point that out. through the course of this debate, you will find that there will be a series of statements and you can make the decision whether that person qualifies or not. [laughter] [applause]
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but with respect, because i have risen about this and it was delayed one year. it is going into this year now. i understand what this is. whether you are on a small plan or a large plan, at 85% has to be paid out of your premium. so, you are an insurance company and you are insuring sae. according to the law now, regulation, you have to take 85 cents of every dollar and spend it on claims. that means you have at 15 cents of every dollar to pay for operating your business. paying your insurance agents. the third-party payer. pay for legal, accounting, salary, everything. it is not your profit margin.
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it is 15% to run your business. i don't know if you know in the state of new hampshire with the average is as far as what it costs to ensure here in new hampshire, for large companies? but here you have, and by the way it is different from state to state. there are a lot of states that are -- in fact, there are laws that have them at 60%. this is something states have done. they do have mlr's in different states. other states do not. but to come in and take 80% or 85%, and here is why i am saying this. bill clinton put forth and mlr, remember what was? 90%. ok.
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i am trying to think. joint taxes was the one that scored them. when they look to the bill, they said that if you have 90% that you have to pay out in benefits, you really are not an insurance company anymore. you are not managing risk anymore. you're just simply paint claims. -- paying claims. you cannot with that small a margin make a profit and do anything to manage risk. as a result, what happened under clinton, obama said hours was much less expensive than clintoncare was. they looked at this and said it is not a private system. it is actually a federal payment
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-- a tax. all the insurance company is doing is being a third-party payer for the government. they considered all the premiums and benefits and federal taxes and revenue. what is the obama administration do? they know it cannot be 90%. they come in at 85%. this is the kind of talk down -- we know how to run your business better than you do. it is, again, over and over again you will see this with this administration. in the back. >> how much of a percentage is paid to medicare? >> i am not too sure i know what you mean. >> what is the cost ratio for medicare? government is bad for medicare
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but not bad for health care? insurance companies should make millions and we should not make as much money? we should have to pay off of that? >> medicare is administered by the private sector. right? >> it does not matter. they still do it at 4%. that is the ratio. >> it is a phony ratio. that is not what they do. they transfer costs. for example, right now medicare, as you know, medicare has such low rates of reimbursement because they keep their costs low artificially. they have such low rates of reimbursement that it costs private-sector providers -- doctors and hospitals -- they are no longer taking new medicare patients. why? because the transfer costs to the private sector. for example, i have talked to many physicians to tell me they
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can take no more than 25% medicare patients. why? because if they do, they will go bankrupt. medicare is such a poor player. why? because it is not a market that sets the price. they set the price by the government and tell you how much you will be reimbursed. take it or leave it. as you know, a lot providers will not take medicare anymore. they're not taking any medicare, some are not taking any. 42% of the primary-care doctors are not taking new medicare patients. you can have a medicare card and say it is run efficiently. sure. here's how much money you are going to pay. but it is not a market. it is not real. you cannot provide that benefit. if medicare ran the entire health-care system, there would be no providers or doctors because they would all be bankrupt.
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so, yes, you can say, "we have done a great job at holding down costs." because you do so by transferring costs to the private sector. that is the false economy of medicare. it does not work because it is an artificial system. yes, sir. >> medicine in this country? >> that is a separate question. of course. i talked about some of the ways to do so. i supported the ryan plan which takes government out of the health-care business in the dominating way in which it is funded. medicare -- just give me one second. medicare does not just run the medicare system. it runs the private system. medicare basically has -- look at reimbursements. you look at what is covered and
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what is not. medicare and medicaid have a huge impact as well as other government regulations and state regulations on the management of the health care system. i just love when people say, this health care system, the private health care system does not work. we need government to run it. government is running it now and that is why we need -- and that is why it does not work. [applause] >> senator, from new kingston, new hampshire. one of the things that comes to my thinking of logic is that our 10th amendment rights are being trampled on. one of them being trampled on is the running over of the epa and the education department. they're out there sucking all our money out of here and spending it down there. how are you going to make the
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government smaller and much more efficient so that we can get our rights back? >> let me just say -- i will be very up front about this. i am not a libertarian. i am a conservative. in may rating conservative. if you want to be a libertarian and he's not leaving any size and structure of government, that is fine. that is not my opinion. that is not our constitution was laid out. government does have certain powers and regulations. for example, national security. it is not just building and defending a wall around america. there is a difference. i defend myself and say that i am a reagan conservative. on the 10th amendment, there are a lot of ways to get to this. a lot of answers i could give you. the broadest dancer, the best way to deal with the 10th amendment is to pass a balanced
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budget to the constitution. [applause] i just remind everybody that back in 1995 when i was first elected to the senate, we had 53 i believe republican senators at the time. we came within one vote of passing a balanced budget to the constitution. one vote. and the vote was a republican. and i was just in for one month or two. i was 36 years old. i go in there. i am 20 years younger to the next oldest guy in the senate. i go in there and one of the big proponents of the balanced budget act, i ran underwritten as a big thing we would be able to accomplish. we're looking at the boats. we're working the democratic side of the aisle. we think we got it. the day before the vote, the chairman of the appropriations
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committee, a republican with 28 years in the senate from oregon stands up and denounces it. even though it bowed he -- even though he voted for, he denounces it. he gets up and does this. and, of course, the media just sing. what courage to stand up to these barbarians. they do not care about anybody in just want to limit spending. he did this heroic thing. i went up while the rose petals were being thrown at his feet and said, that he should resign as chairman of the appropriations committee. because he betrayed a fundamental principle of the republican party as chairman of the person of the committee that spent money. you could not be a republican in good standing and be given that
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authority if you will not stand up for the basic principles of limiting income. that is the best way. to pass the balanced budget amendment. why? i always step on my applause lines. [laughter] cap it at 18% of gdp. why? that is the historical average since world war ii. you guarantee limited government. right now the government is spending upwards of 25%. that is the federal government -- historic high. the government is getting bigger and states' rights are being trampled. if you limit it to 18%, you accomplish making sure the federal government does not travel on the states. i think that is the best thing to do.
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that is the short answer. i think for the purposes of people who probably need to use restaurants and get water, i will limit it to one. >> -- anybody have a foreign policy question? >> i am from new market, new hampshire. in the middle east there is a lot of turmoil going on but there are a lot of things happening right now that could lead to a war between israel and a surrounding nations. if that were to happen and you were president, what stance would you take and would you support israel? >> again, a lot of folks talk about how pro-israel they are.
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i have a track record of not only supporting the state of israel when i was on the armed services committee for eight years, i traveled to israel to work cooperatively with them as i authorized money for that program. but i also worked on two major bills that dealt with security. one dealing with syria when the leader was putting pressure on northern israel in that region. also, secondarily, with iran. there is been a laser focused on iran with the last seven years. when the iraq war was at its height, i was talking about how we are missing the boat here. we need to focus on iran because they are building a nuclear weapon. everybody said, do not say that,
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iraq has weapons of mass destruction. and i said, well, this is true. just because you don hussein did not have a nuclear weapon does not mean that these folks are not serious about it. for about one year, the intelligence community said, whenever they had was shut down. i had a different intelligence. i continued to push forward with this bill. president bush opposed me. joe biden opposed me when i brought it to the senate. barack obama and joe biden voted against my bill. within four months after they voted it down, it became apparent what iran was doing and that in fact there was a nuclear program that was progressing. and a barack and joe all voted for the bill. we were able to get it passed. it did two things.
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it funded the pro-democracy movement. it helped them organize and give them the technology to organize a revolution in their country, to be able to get rid of this regime that is an existential threat not just to israel but to the united states and the west. well, as we see, they continued now because this president has shown his weakness repeatedly with respect to iran. when the revolution did occur, president obama cut the funds of the pro-democracy movement. by the way, bush did not spend very many of them either. worse yet, the president of united states waited two weeks to make any comments until the revolution was basically suppressed.
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the only comment he made early on was when the announcement was made in 2009, when the election results came in, which was a fraudulent election. within one hour -- i think less than one hour -- and president obama said, it looks like a legitimate election. well, he is from chicago. of course it looked legitimate. [laughter] [applause] so, he continually appeased iran. i am happy he signed some sanctions today. but it is the first time i have seen him do anything to try to stand up to this regime that is building a nuclear weapon. anybody know where they are building it? the name of the town?
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qom. qom is a town outside of tehran. it is a very -- it has a very important religious meaning to tehran. it is the side of the well. the well was the residence of the 12th -- the man who ruled from this well for 70 years until he announced that he was going to go into a suspended state and return at a time of great chaos to help conquer and rule the world. this will still exists. -- this well still exists.
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they come to the well and ask for guidance. he talks about how the return is coming soon. they are preparing the way for him to come back. and it just so happens there are building a nuclear facility. at a time when this man comes back a great time of chaos. they are building this nuclear facility. it happens to be in this very important town dealing with the end of times prediction. you hear democrats and republicans throwing together and saying that iran should not get a nuclear weapon. there are a lot of countries that have gotten nuclear weapons that republicans and democrats -- we do not want anybody else to get a nuclear weapon. you do not see them doing anything to stop them. you have republicans and
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democrats saying, no. this nuclear facility is being built in qom. these are folks that will not this bill that to protect themselves. they will build it to either shield themselves from attack or use them. this is the real threat. that is why we must have a policy, and i have laid out a five. plan that says iran will not get a nuclear weapon under rick santorum's administration, period. [applause] i will use all means necessary because if they do get a nuclear weapon, the world as you know it will be fundamentally changed. the events that we saw on 9/11 will not be a once in a decade occurrence. it will be life in the western world with this theocracy with
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the protection of having a nuclear weapon in its hand. with that, let me just stop. as you can tell, i enjoyed this. i can do this for a long time. [applause] i do not want to try your patience. let me thank everybody. if you like what you heard, and you think, this guy has what it takes to stand up and go toe-to- toe with barack obama, and he has economic policy in the knowledge to transform our health care system and to limit government and do the things that are necessary to stand for strong families in strong communities, and has a very important thing in his favor. the only person in this race who has run as a conservative in heavily democratic states and
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districts, as a conservative, and been able to get elected. i love this issue that i hear all the time. oh, this certain candidate is the most electable. what would give you that impression? when it has that can did it ever run as a conservative and gotten any votes? never. so why would you assume he is the most electable? because he raises the most money? we are doing ok right now. and if the people here in new hampshire give us a shot, my guess is we will do a lot better. right? [applause] do not by the media hype. do not by the light -- do not by the lie that you have to be a moderate to win the election. it is so funny.
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bush won iowa. but reagan won in new hampshire. it made all the difference in this country. interesting they say that iowa is the more conservative and new hampshire is the more liberal. bush, reagan. do not let this country down. new hampshire is going to do what america needs. i trust you to do that. thank you and god bless. [applause] thank you very much. excuse me. thank you. keep working at it. i have to get out.
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>> i could have gone for three hours but i do not want to bore anyone. i do not know. the more people know, the better as far as i concern. we are going to fight everywhere. >> the expectations are not high here. we are told we cannot compete here. >> of most states already have a provision like that. -- most states already have a provision like that.
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if the states want to do it, i am ok with that. what happens? people wait till they are sick and then buy insurance. that is a problem. if you have insurance, and you go to an individual policy, you have to compromise. >> you have a child, right? >> it has actually been a federal law for a long time.
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>> thank you. >> thank you. i appreciate your help. >> @ thank you very much. >> thank you. >> how are you? thank you for your question. remind me the question. >> it was about insider trading. >> i am for the ban. >> you do not need laws. it is all set up by senate and house rules. >> that is fine. >> the question is, do just what
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romney? >> in the stronger conservative that you can trust. -- i am the stronger conservative that you can trust. >> he is not those things? thank you senator. >> we will have more on the road to the white house coverage this month as we had to tuesday's new hampshire primary. our new hampshire coverage continues this evening with the newt gingrich town hall meeting in meredith, new hampshire. that is at 7:00 p.m. eastern. this morning, "washington journal" is next. then, on to the pentagon were president obama along with the defense secretary and chairman of and in about 45
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