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>>a number walked away with their minds still not made up.

mike huckabee said he could support any of the five candidates that came. they all mentione obeyed that et newt gingrich who mentioned mitt romney at bain capital. rick santorum, hall meeting kicks off tomorrow. >> it is easy to follow the candidates through social media. cut to the website and find what they are posting and real time. what he wears like you are saying of facebook, twitter, and more. more. -- this week on the

communicators, new york times columnist nick bilton talks about how technology has changed the media. >> we like to look at the future what technology is coming down the road. nick bilton, what do you write about? >> i read about anything to do with technology and business and the way society is changing culture. i read about companies that affect what we're doing. it is just a range of technology and culture.

>> when did you move to the san francisco area? >> i am a san francisco resident as of 4 months ago. i am out here now enjoying the weather. >> why did you move out there? >> i have been in the city for 15 years. i have been a reporter break couple of years now. when i became a reporter, there definitely was a burgeoning tax seen -- teech scene. without we could -- it has been an amazing to go down to the valley and meet with some of these companies and see some of the things happening in san francisco. >> two questions from your last answer, what are up the research and development labs of "the new york times."

>> the idea was when you look at the paper, you have reporters that are recording daily stories. they are embedded in what ever their beat is. you have the web development team that produced the website. between those two, they are so focused on the daily work they don't get to look at things coming down the road two years from now. they decided to start this research lab at based of something you would find at mit or in what you. -- nyu. what we can unmatched in the media world to look like in the next 10 years. this is a small group of about 10 people or so. we would sit around and try to figure out what happens when smartphones exits that everyone is home and telephones that can talk to you. we started to build a lot of

prototypes around at that. >> are any of the prototypes in use by the new york times now? >> there are some data visualization projects we did or retract how people come to the website. one of the projects we did is we tracked the day that michael jackson died. we look at who was coming to the website and where they were coming from and how quickly the news and information spread. it was just a data exercise. what was fascinating about the research is that we found people around the globe discovered michael jackson passed away in a matter of minutes. it literally spread from new york to california to japan to africa in just a matter of minutes. we created this map where you traffic coming to the site. it almost explodes. it was funny because cn and restore that said michael jackson dies and almost takes the internet with them because the news and information was spreading so quickly. now that is being used

internally to track on a daily basis house stories are spreading on social media. >> did you find that the business models from the new york times used forever, are they all outdated. not just the new york times but other publishing companies and a television etc.? >> i think business models are definitely out dated. whether it is newspapers, radios, all these different things. i think what you are seeing with some of the innovations happening is with blogs and a smaller startups. a perfect example of that is a lot of these technology blogs that have started does not have to worry about brick and mortar issues and printing presses and multi me million dollar tv studios. they do not just look at bringing in revenue based on advertising. they look at different aspects. one of the things we are seeing is some sites do things where they have communities. they say you peso money dollars

a month and you get access to our writers or specific papers were published before anyone else. another thing you see are conferences. the conference market has been around for many years. ticket look at tech crunch for example which is a technology blogger based in new york and san francisco. 90% of their revenue comes from conferences they hold where they hold -- where they make millions of dollars. i think when you look at the media business model, you should not just look at a prescription and advertising and classifieds. there can be a whole different gamut of things people can do to give money to the organizations. television is an interesting model to look at because you have free over the air television with advertising. you have limited cable. you have premium cable. you have pay-per-view where people can watch things ought to live and netflix. there is always different

ranges and ways people can pay for those things that make the most sense for them. >> somebody of your generation can read about technology. do you subscribe to pay television in any way or do you watch it over the internet? >> i do not. i canceled my cable one and a half years ago. it was one of the greatest decisions i made. i can to not only consume cable television in the way i did -- i tend to not consumed television the way i did many years ago. it is difficult to navigate with remote controls. a lot of the content is not that great. you have channels were a lot of tv shows are just filling up space. i think there are only a few really good shows. i have a computer hooked up to my television at home. i have a wireless mouse that looks like a donut. you can hold it in the air and move it a round.

i watch things on hulu or netflix or i will buy something on itunes. one of the things that really has changed is not necessarily how i watchman's dream content but the fact that i just do not watch mainstream -- watch main stream content, but the fact i do not watch mainstream content. we pull up youtube and pass around the rebel control and the keyboard. it becomes a very social way of watching the news or watching content online. >> nick bilton, you also mentioned earlier you are amazed at seeing silicon valley and being exposed to it now on a regular basis. for somebody who has not been out there, what would you tell them about silicon valley? >> it is funny. when i first came out here

somebody from twitter said " welcome to baghdad by the day -- bay." and managing editor for the new york times was out here last week celebrating the expansion of the blog that i write for. we took him around and showed him all of these companies. he said it is essentially like the new english out here. the new english out here. it is our job to translate what is happening. when you see some of the things happening out here and what the future looks like -- a lot of the projects being built and the start-ups a couple of years they had were the main stream will be, you can really see how amazing and how much of a different language it is when you look at the technology and how we interact with it. >> nick bilton is a columnist for the bit section and "the new

york times." he is also the author of a book last year. "i live in the future and here is how it works." >> that is a term that google uses. it means you eat your own dog food. when google builtgmail, the required their developers to use gmail and it is called dog fooding. >> why do you use that term and how did that -- how did you eat your own dog food for the "new york times"? >> i tried to practice what i keep -- tecah. i did -- at a press becoming a

reporter there as something like starting a start up. i do what i do online in the paper. i am constantly using social media, twitter, facebook, google+ -- all of these different things to reach out to readers. i let them know about breaking news as i am writing it. i follow the article all the way through no matter what the story is. that is something very different than the print model where you write the story and the only way somebody can communicate with reporters back in the day was to write a letter to the editor. that was a little column in the back that was edited. just in the narrative changes would you can have conversations with your readers. it is also eating dog food in the way that i do not think about things and words. if i am updating my twitter or facebook account, i am not just writing words i am putting

photos and videos and links. i do the same thing with reporting war i. create graphics or shoot -- where i am reporting and i create graphics or shoot a video. >> what about feedback? >> feedback is great. readers like being a part of the conversation. they can now do that. there are some angry readers that do not like things that i write. for the most part, the feedback is always good. one thing i found that is helpful to the readers and myself is that if i am interviewing somebody -- let's say i am interviewing bill gates. i asked him if it is ok. i will send a tweet an update my facebook and ask if there are any questions people want me to ask him. a couple of them i will ask him and will make it into the story. this ark of the narrative where the reader is not just reading but they are also participating.

i think that has been really helpful. >> in your book, one of the opening stories you tell is how you no longer subscribe to the print edition of your paper. >> it was an interesting experience. when i first started, i remember one of the most exciting parts of working there was the fact that i could get the sunday paper on saturdays. they print an early version called "the bulldog." i used to ride my bike over to the bureau, the main headquarters, and wait for the print edition to come. i would go home and devour it. france started asking me and i was essentially coming back to piles and piles of newspaper. a lot of my friends stopped asking me to get the sunday newspaper. then my paper started to pile up. it was not that i was not reading the times, it was that i was not reading it in that

capacity. i started reading it on my e- reader. i was consuming it differently. i decided i no longer wanted to get the paper products. i wanted to consume it on digital devices. it is definitely preferential to me -- [inaudible] it is still not that way for a lot of readers. there are 1 million people that still subscribe to the paper. >> how did you cancel your subscription? >> i had to call from the newsroom. i was very nervous about it. i did not know if somebody i knew would pick up the phone on the other end. i called and i canceled. they tried to convince me otherwise. luckily it was not somebody that i knew. >> when that news came out that you had canceled your paper subscription, what was the

reaction from "the new york times"? >> it was not good. i was being interviewed by "wired" on some research for the labs. the reporter said, by the way, the you still read the print paper? i said, no, i did not. i read it on this product called "the times reader." it looked just like a newspaper experience but in the digital format. format. the lead of this article was "nick bilton once the news, it is these papers he cannot stand." and it was definitely an easy response. they recognize i was essentially kind of the next generation of readers. they needed to listen to what i had to say and what other reporters at the paper that

would not necessarily reading the print experience had to say. that is a testament to them having the research lab. that is a testament to that building the iphone apps and all of these things. >> in your book and in your columns, you talk about the me generation. what you mean by that? >> there are a couple of different things to that. one of the things that has happened is digital looks forward to a world where we get things that are smart and they understand what we want. i may want to watch a tv show on my iphone. you may want to watch it of a 72 inch plasma television. i think what digital of ford's is the ability to be able to do that. what ever is preferential to you. whether it is tv your news articles -- it is really some of by how we consume content these days on all of these devices. that is one of the beauties of

digital. in the same respect, there is also a term i talked about in the book called "the economics." if they would have gone 20 years ago, if you went to a bookstore and the purchase the book and he did not like you could have returned it. the same with a video or what ever it is. in the digital world you cannot do it. it is one of the flaws the way we dealt the system. if you buy a song from itunes north dakota do not like it, you cannot return it. you are stuck with it. you have taking kids to have taken this into their own hands. they say, i bought this last problem and i did not like it. in the physical world i would be able to return it. in the digital world i will "steal" the next version to balance things out a little bit. >> the subtitle of your book is "why your world, work, and brain

are being creatively disruptive." there is something in here about video games. what is that about? >> one of the reasons i wrote the book is in response to a lot of books and articles out there that are saying that the internet is bad for us and technology is bad for us. i did not agree. one of the reasons for that is because i have had a computer when i was 4 years old. i have essentially gone up in the digital world. i think i turned out ok. people might argue otherwise. in reality, there is no evidence that says these things are bad for us. i started to do some research into what happens with our brains when we are using devices and when we are using iphone and ipad and things like that. i spoke to narrow scientists all across the country. there are a couple of things i discovered. -- narrow scientists all across the country. there is some research that says

video games are very good for us. there was some research that found kids to play first shooter video games actually have the visual acuity of somebody who is deaf. they have better hand i ordination and long-term and short-term working memory and a long list of other things. there was research done in california about things -- about people who play tetras what they found the same results. a video games are a different form of storytelling. they are not bad. they are not going to replace books or movies or something like that. they are a new form of the weakened some content. to say that they are bad is completely inaccurate. , theiras the surgeon's worst -- there was some research where they found insurgents to play video games are actually 40% faster than those who do

not. --surgeons played video games are 40% faster than those who do not. an epiphany i had at the moment was when i was looking at marion's research, she is a nuero scientist that deals with research. she said the human bank -- the human brain is not designed to read. when you say video games are bad for us and we should be reading books, art prints were not designed for that either. it is creating this new form of storytelling. >> to also look at the pornography industry as a cutting edge industry. >> one of the things the pornography industry has been at the forefront of technology for thousands of years. i found from a friend who works at the science magazine was at

the forefront of business back in the day selling statues in the markets. the pornography industry has always been an innovator because a lot of government officials and religious leaders have always tried to suppress the pornography industry. they have tried to find a way to reach consumers by going around the rules of the day. if you look at the printing press, two of the most popular books in the early days of the printing press. one was the bible and the other was a book that was essentially erotic tales. you can follow this all the way through the porn industry. when it came to dvd is to cds to the internet. in the early days of the web where people were using it for e-mail and science journals and then there was born.

i interviewed a lot of different porn companies. what i found was the larger organizations, the playboys and penthouses, had gone out of business and they had been purchased and gone bankrupt and were tens of millions of dollars in the hole. you had this small group of start-ups that had started to create content and sell it to a very small audience. it was almost esoteric to a certain degree. the content of work creating was people were paying for it. what i found is just like what we are seeing today were you have a lot of larger news organizations and magazines and so on that are having trouble continuing the revenue growth that they have had in the past, you have smaller blogs starting up and saying, we do not need to have a printing press or a new studio. we can do this from our bedroom. we can reach the same audience with the same kind of quality

content. >> nick bilton, is the occupied wall street movement a good example of how facebook and twitter are much more powerful than a "new york times"editorial today? >> as far as motivating people? definitely agree with that. as far as influence i do not know about that. they are both powerful to a degree. the movement was not started by the new york times, it was almost started by adbusters which is a magazine that is very liberal. it was perpetuated by the people. they are "occupy wall streets" movements around the world. i was watching video of all these areas outside my bedroom i

hear -- i'm sorry, outside of my hotel room i hear all of this yelling and there is a movement and madrid. you can see how quickly this movement spreads. there are two aspects to it. it only started in october and is now everywhere. the other aspect to it is in the past we relied on the media to be the one to be the watchdog. that is still the role of the media. people are now part of that as well. the devices we all carry around in our pockets, everybody has a printing press. everybody can reach the same number of people that the "new york times" can with the same content. receive the same reaction with police. it was a veteran beating -- beaten by police in oakland. you can see the u.s. -- the uc-

davis event where officers pepper sprayed students sitting on the floor. there is a ricocheting of the days between media and people involved on occupy wall street or they are helping perpetuate the conversation together. >> often write about personal experiences. one of them is when you boot up to the west coast and you wrote "move the books or leave them." >> a difficult decision that generated quite a bit of discussion. discussion. i was packing up my stuff to move to san francisco and i had piles of books. i thought to myself, do i want to bring these out? for the most part, they literally sat on the bookshelf and my living room for the past few years. all of the new books that i buy are on my candle or by ipad. i do not remember the last one i actually bought a printed book. was it worth it to ship all

these things out? it would just sit on a bookshelf again in california. i decided to take about 10% and leave about 90%. >> you also wrote a recent column -- there is no data column -- there is no data sheriff on the wide web. >> one thing i have been writing about is the lack of privacy on the internet. facebook as more information on people it around the world than any government agency could even dream of. there is nobody regulating them. one of the reasons this evening came up is because earlier this year sony was hacked and 77 million people's personal affirmation was essentially compromised by hackers. one of the reason was that sony

had outdated servers and they did not have the proper protocol in place. there are no rules or regulations that said that they have to. there was no slap on the wrist. there was no -- nobody got into any trouble. that could essentially happening again with any company. part of the reason for this is because there is no legislation. this is a real problem. there is this tectonic shift that happen online where people's privacy is no longer owned by them. i think it is a real problem that we are going to see the effects of over the next few years as more and more people's content and information and personal information is taken advantage of. >> are most people not aware of what they are providing to these companies and doing so willingly? art silicon valley companies reluctant or pushing back

against legislative efforts? >> i do not think people are aware. if you go into google and you type in a search for something personal like prostate cancer, google stores that search and less to tell them otherwise not to. if you are part of a group of facebook -- maybe it is a religious group or what ever it is. facebook has that knowledge. i do not think a lot of people are aware that these things are happening. i recently last year had to go on a television show and explain how to change your privacy settings on facebook. i could not figure it out. i am a technology reporter who is excessively on line and i could not figure out how to change my facebook privacy settings. a lot of people are unaware of the things happening when they are on these websites. the companies like google and facebook and all of these

companies benefit from that because they can deliver advertising. they get to store all of this data and make money off of that. there is a lot of push back from them. i think it is pretty apparent that there needs to be some kind of oversight to say that people need to have access to their content and information and to be able to delete it from the internet. also, there beats to be some oversight to say that these companies should have specific protections in place to protect privacy as the store this information online. >> nick bilton, you were recently offered a different job, were you not? >> i was. >> what was that other job and why did you not take it? >> i was recently offered a television related job. i very seriously consider taking it. it. in the end, i really love working at "the new york times."

i am proud of the reporting that everybody i work with us. i am proud of the reporting i do and my editors. i do not think you can really get that in many other places. when i look at the facts when we talk about the mainstream media vs. people on twitter and so long -- twitter, they definitely live in the same world but it is very important for these media companies to keep an eye on the things that are happening. privacyple, facebook's and to really report on these things. >> if people want to redo, what is the best way to find you? >> all of my stories are a share on line on twitter or facebook. you can find me on anything on the internet @nick bilton.

that is pretty much it. >> if you have your own web site as well? >> that is right. >> if you go to nickbilton.com and pick up his book, there are qr codes in every chapter for more content. there is a picture of the book on your screen right now. nick bilton has been our guest. thank you for your time. >> thank you for having me. >> proposed changes to the government's lifetime program to reduce broadband internet. the program provides subsidized phone service to the poor. the chairman spoke at the third way think tank. these comments are 25 minutes. >> when i was growing up, my

grandmother used to ride out phone numbers beginning with letters. i remember calling her from our house with a rotary homes. if those funds are still on the wall, my children would not be able to operate them. we are about addressing americans challenges with modern ideas. that is precisely what the fcc and chairman genachowski are doing today. we will hear more about their efforts to modernize this agency. there is a concerted effort to bring reform programs that will empower consumers and meet america's communication needs in this century.

julius is just the person to do that job. he spent more than one decade in the private sector working on technology and media industries. he worked in congress for chuck schumer among other jobs that there. the chairman is spearheading that commissions reforms to accelerate broadband. he strongly believes this is a vital part of creating jobs for this country. as we will hear in a moment, the chairman is working with his colleagues on the efficient and transparent reforms which is what we believe needs to happen in agencies like this. we applaud his tireless work to eliminate waste and a drive growth.

i bring you julius genachowski. [applause] >> thank you for that introduction. thank you for welcoming me to third way. a perfect venue for a talk on smart, responsible government. thank you for coming. i know there is a lot of competition for your attention. you have the football playoffs. you have the decanter primary. you have -- you have to the new hampshire primary. or you have a policy speech. you have chosen the third, wise way. an fcc program created by congress to help ensure low, -- low income americans have access to basic communications

services. this is to benefit our economy and all americans. it is an important part of our ongoing effort to modernize our programs, to modernize them for broadband, and to ensure there are efficient and fiscally responsible. what is our mission at the fcc? since becoming chairman i have work to focus the agency on driving innovation, driving investment, promoting competition, and empowering consumers. there has never been a more exciting and powerful time to be at the fcc. wireless is the most transformative exciting technology since electricity. it is changing almost every aspect of our economy and the lives. it is why we developed america's first broadband plan, a comprehensive strategy to build a world leading a broad and infrastructure and bring the benefits of wide -- high-speed

internet to all americans. for the past two years we have been working to implement that time. 2011 was a year of accomplishment for all of the commissioners and staff at the fcc. we adopted a major bottleneck station and overhaul. -- a major modernization and overhaul. we have multibillion-dollar a year program that we reformed for the modern age to meet our 24 hour a day strategical. we have the broad -- over the past year if you look at the broad and the economy, both network and infrastructure and also services across the eco system, investment up, jobs up -- it is a thriving sector of our overall economy although there is still much more work to do.

we took many steps over the course of 2011 to make sure that the united states has a strategic brand advantage in the global marketplace and that we drive and investment into the u.s. and foster competition and empower consumers. one lesson i learned during a decade during the private sector -- thank you for mentioning my background. a lesson i learned as an investor is that an organization's ability to advance its mission depends not just on what it does but how it does it. since day one, i have made it a priority to improve the way the fcc does business. i have emphasized the need for smart and responsible government. i want to commend my fellow commissioners for being part of this effort. one of my first acts as chairman was to appoint a special counsel for fcc reform. if you are not organizing

reforms are less likely to have reform we have already priscilla to that effort eliminated more than 200 outdated rules and -- we have already eliminated more than 200 outdated rules. at the same time cracked down on fraud and abuse. in 2011, we let to millions of dollars in penalties and settlements. to ensure modern communications are available to all americans, the fcc administers a number of programs to help connect underserved populations. these are vital programs rounded in a longstanding national commitment to the idea that essential infrastructure and platforms, electricity highways, broadband should be available to

all americans. we all benefit from universal service. we put all the programs we administered under the microscope asking the tough questions and reforming our programs to make sure that they are efficient and fiscally responsible. the program can read -- the program can be efficient and fiscally responsible and still be effected. that is why we spassky of programs need to be modernized to meet today's need and be effective. we found some that most needed careful scrubbing to make sure they are carrying out their mission to effectively. we were to reform and modernize our programs reaching out waste and fraud and abuse and ensuring they are serving the right policy goals in today's broadband goals. we reformed the video release service that provides vital

communications for people who are deaf or hard of hearing. the program suffered from serious abuse. now we have made changes to eliminate fraud and have already saved the taxpayers about $250 million. our erate program connect schools and libraries to the internet. we have reform bit to make it more efficient. we have eliminated unnecessarily restrictions to let libraries get higher capacity and most cost-effective broadband services. we remove barriers that kept schools from opening their computer labs as hot spots for their communities, allowing them to provide internet use when students are not in school. it reflects the increasing use of digital textbook and the tablets and the continuous need for reinvention. we are also running a larding on the goal pilot project to test

erate programming for off-campus activities. an overhaul of the multibillion- dollar programs that ensure communication networks reach la rue america -- the largest part of the service in the system. we took a system that was still focused on supporting 20th century telephone service and doing so pretty wistfully, paying as much as $2,000 a month for a single phone line in some areas and subsidizing multiple carriers and other areas. we transformed it into the connect america fund, which will he efficiently spur wireless broadband a bill out to hundreds of thousands of homes in the near term and put us on the path to universal broadband deployment by the end of the decade by using smart market- based policies and cutting waste. we are able to do this for the first time putting the funds on

the budget. our reforms will eliminate billions of dollars in hidden subsidies of phone bills and spur the rollout of innovative new communication services. now, tomorrow i will circulate to my fellow fcc commissioners in order to reform and modernize the universal service lifeline program. the circulation of this draft order is an opportunity to take another major step forward in our efforts to modernize our programs to the digital age and to make them efficient and fiscally response will. lifeline is a vitally important program. it implements congress's directives -- consumers in all regions including low income consumers should have access to telecommunications services. it has helped tens of millions of americans afford basic phone

service. they rely on their funds to do everything from finding a job to coordinating child care to calling 911 during an emergency. the other day at the fcc we heard from a local lifeline recipient who had a chronically ill daughter. she said her lifeline supported phone had enabled her to make multiple e emergency calls to her daughter's doctors at children's hospital. meeting this assistance has literally been a lifeline. -- meaning this assistant has literally been a lifetime. some carriers are providing lifeline service to individuals who already have lifeline the assistance from another carrier. there is currently no database of consumers they can check with before signing up new customers. we have received reports that some unscrupulous carriers are abusing the service. they are bailing them bonds already set up for lifeline

service or signing people up -- they are mailing them phone already set up for lifeline defense -- defrauding is flat out wrong. it is simply unacceptable and we have launched multiple investigations into the reported violations. companies have unlawfully defrauded and abused our programs. we will penalize them. we will make it clear that it does not pay to rip off the government. with the reforms we are proposing, we would also standardize the eligibility requirements and clarify rules to further tackle the issue of improper support. in some cases, old rules may have invited and runs and created loopholes that some carriers are exploding -- exploiting. this will close the loopholes.

if the economy improves or worsens and the lifeline eligible population shrinks or grows, the size of the program will fluctuate. this explains in some of the growth during a down economy. that flexibility is crucial to ensuring low income americans remain connected to our communication networks, particularly in tough economic times. when he needed to call about job opportunities or to obtain basic services is particularly acute. much of the program's recent growth stems from waste and efficiency and that cannot continue. the program needs cost controls and it needs a budget designed to address the issues consistent with the programs per -- purpose. the program is updated, focused on phone service when high-speed internet has become our vital communications platform. the commission started the process of reforming the

loeffler program with the release of our national broadband plan an early 2010. surely there after, we asked the federal state joined the board on universal service to examine in the lifeline program and offer recommendations for reform, which it did. last year the fcc proposed rules that built on the joint board's recommendations and the order being circulated tomorrow implements many of those ideas. we have not waited for this order to take concrete steps. last year the commission adopted an order clarifying that an eligible consumer may only receive one lifeline supported service creating procedures that protect subscribers with people can't services and establishing an unprecedented process with partnership of major law firm providers to detect duplicative process is now under way in 12 states that will expand two

additional states in the months ahead. as a result of these actions, we already identified more than 200,000 duplicative lifeline subscriptions for elimination's saving millions of dollars every month. the order to be circulated to morrow continues this important work. if approved by the commission it would reform the lifeline program in a number of significant additional ways. it would for the first time establish clear goals for the program. clear goals and metric to measure progress toward those goals. putting goals and a metrics emplace is crucial to ensuring that the fcc and usack are accountable to program performance. what of the goals as minimizing the contribution burden on consumers and businesses who ultimately pay for the program. consistent with this goal, it contains a multiple -- contains multiple measures to make it more efficient.

to prevent multiple carriers from receiving support for the san subscriber, and the draft order would create a national lifeline accountability database. the order would also set a budget for a lifeline. over the next few years, this would help ensure reforms successfully eliminate unnecessary spending while the program continues to provide enough support to connect eligible consumers to our communication of networks. to ensure accountability, every carrier that receives more than a specified annual amount of support from the program would be subject to independent audits every two years. the order would establish national ad -- eligibility criteria, it would have access to people who meet standards for participation in the program with the recognition of the unique circumstances facing tribal communities.

states would be permitted to add to these criteria. it would make lifeline reimbursement more transparent and streamlined so that carriers receive funds only for subscribers they actually serve. the order would also ticket number of steps to protect and -- and empower consumers including new measures to ensure that consumers are informed of a program requirements. our staff estimates that the reforms proposed in this draft order could save the fund as much as $2 billion over the next few years keeping money in the pockets of american consumers that otherwise would have been wasted on duplicative benefits, subsidies for ineligible consumers or fraudulent misuse of lifeline that funds. these would put the program on a firm footing. it would put an important program on a solid foundation for the future so it could be more effectively serve low-

income consumers. this brings me to the final, but perhaps most important reform. beginning the process of modernizing lifeline from television service to look broadband. broadband has gone from being a luxury to a necessity in the 21st century. it is essential for finding a job, as job postings have moved on line. for landing a job as companies increasingly require basic digital skills. over 80% of fortune 500 companies do all of their job postings on line and require on- line applications. one-third of americans have not adopted broadband at home. the majority of low income americans are not adopted. this is a negative cycle were the people who most need abroad

and access in order to find a job and develop skills and participate in the economy are at the biggest disadvantage. we know there are three primary barriers to broadband adoption, cost, digital literacy, and relevance, the work of q and other entities confirms this. all events refers to the fact that too many americans do not perceive broadband as having value for that. as i said before, there is no single solution to closing the broadband adoption gap. that is what the sec has taken a number of steps in this area including the working to launch in the connect to compete initiative which analysts government nonprofit and private sector leaders. partners risen from best buy to the nation's libraries have made commitments to teach americans basic skills.

in the cable industry is rolling out a basic $9.99 a month broadband plan for families with kids on school lunch programs. it is a very significant initiative. government is another powerful tool for accelerating broadband adoption. the winners of the fcc's apps for community challenge to develops tools to help people find jobs, help the homeless with public services and let transportation writers known when their bosses are arriving. -- riders know when their bosses are in writing. it is a real opportunity to address broadband adoption. there are making the broad band services as well as computers available to low-income americans at significant discounted rates. we believe that lifeline, a program that insures low-income

americans can afford vital communications, can and should be part of the solution. that is why the order of circulate -- that is why the order i will circulate to my fellow members tomorrow in shores the ability of broadband to low income americans as an expressed program goal. it is the first at 2 transitioning the program to support broadband. it would establish a broad band pilot program using savings from other reforms. the pilot program would test and determine how lifeline can best be used to increase broadband adoption among lifeline eligible consumers. the program would start by soliciting applications and what selected number of projects to fund this year. lifeline would help reduce the monthly cost of broadband services. applicants would be expected to help address other challenges to broadband adoption including the price of devices and a

digital literacy issues. data from all of the projects as well as others around the country would be rigorously analyzed to make sure a full understanding of how to best transition lifeline to support broadband. a proposal that accompanies the order 6 comment on using savings from universal service reforms to increase digital literacy training at libraries and schools. it could at eventually armed more americans with the digital skills they need to fully participate in our 21st century economy and society. lots of people have worked to bring together our broadband adoption initiatives in general. i do want to thank the people who have contributed ideas to the proposed order, especially to states and the joint board as well as the government

accountability office which has studied the office and its suggestions over the years. i want to commend the staff for their hard work crafting this proposal. i want to thank my fellow commissioners for their input. this has been a subject i look forward to working with both of my colleagues to ensure the lifeline program is efficient, fiscally irresponsible, and that we modernize it to meet the needs of -- fiscally irresponsible and that we modernize it to meet the needs of americans. >> tavis smiley hosts a forum on poverty in america. after that, the weekly addresses with president obama and north dakota john hoeven. on thursday, tavis smiley moderated a forum focusing on

poverty in america. speakers included princeton university professor cornell west, michael more. this is 2.5 hours. rich, and a power in conversation about the one issue that i believe threatens to tear this country apart at its very fiber -- the issue of poverty. in the last presid we want to change that unapologetically but with humility. we want to change that this year to make sure that between now and november, we do everything we can to push the issue of poverty higher up on the american agenda so that we can get some traction on a conversation about what we're going to do to make poverty a priority and figure out a plan ga priority and figure out a plan to not just reduce poverty, but i want to be bold tonight -- to talk about eradicating poverty in this country over a tim

certain. [applause] so i am delighted that we are back here again this year, as we were last year on the campus of george washington university. please think the president and campus for having us back this year. [applause] we conduct these annual symposia to get out of the studio in los angeles and get out into the country, into the nation to talk about issues that we think matter. we are delighted that we are live on c-span. before i go any further, c-span has always been so gracious to cover these conversations now for -- i guess iost count. 13 of 14 years we have been doing these annual mposium. please show yourove for c-span for carrying us live to the nation tonight. [applause] c-span, we thank you. we appreciate it. i also want to welcome those listening live over radio in new york city on wbai. welcome to this conversation

called "remaking america: from poverty to prosperity." delighted to have you turned in to this conversation, again, here on the campus of george washington university. i could say so much more about poverty, but i do not need to because to my left and my right, i am is surrounded by experts. not just experts, but i would say long distance runrs on the issue of trying to reduce and eradicate poverty in this country, and i could not be more delighted to be joined by an auguste panel. let me introduce them to you right now so we can jump straightaway into this conversation. she's the woman who coined the term, and i love it -- "green the ghetto." host of the peabody award winning program cassette and promised wan," please welcome my friend, majora carter. [applause] -- "the promised land."

i am always happy to brag on her. years ago, she was one of the macarthur genius is, so we are glad to have a genius on the stage with us tonight. next is the best-selling author of more than a dozen books, including "nickeled and dimed" and "bait and switched," please welcome barbara ehrenreich. he's a princeton professor, one of the nation's leading public intellectuals, who i'm honored to say as michael was on a national public radio program weekly, and i am also honored to b joined with him on our new book, "the rich and the rest of us: a party manifesto." please welcome dr. cornel west.

-- a party manifesto." let's try this, what i sai michael, you say moore. michael. >> moore. >> academy award winner michael moore, the author of "here comes trouble." [applause] dr. west and i had the honor today earlier to be alongside this next person standing on either side of her as she made an announcement to the nation and the world that i think will literally turned the financial services industry on its head. it was that big a deal. the announcement that she made earlier today at the national press club. she is the author most recently kebab "the money class -- the author most recently of "the money class." nobody knows the difficulty of navigating poverty in this

country better than the leading expert in the country. please welcome our friend, suze orman. [applause] she is the president and ceo of feeding america, a wonderful non-profit designed to combat the scourge of hunger and poverty in this country. please welcome our friend vicki b. escarra. finally, the president of the inside center on community economic development and an editor of -- co-editor of "building help the community's." please welcome our friend from oakland, roger clay. [applause] we have here on c-span tonight to a half hours to talk about poverty. that might be the most time ever given to a conversation uninterrupted without commercials about poverty in this country, and i want to take advantage of every minute of it

and jump right into the conversation. barber, i am honored you are here. i want to start with you because the numbers have been coming out so much of late. it lies in the last three or four months of 2011, it seemed that every other day, there was a new statistics coming out about how things really are. the most recent one, though, from the census bureau. our government fin that one in two americans is either in poverty or near poverty. i was no math major, but i think that means half the country. if you add three categories together, the perennially poor, the newport -- the new poor, and talking poor, you're 150 million americans. i want to ask -- how did it get this bad? >> let me saybout those numbers, there has been an idea for a long time that the poor

are some special group, some special demographic, over there somewhere. we have to face, we are not talking about someone else. we are talking about almost half of america's struggling. that es for the senior citizen who cannot make it on social security, the young person who cannot pay off student loan debt. it is the low-wage worker at walmart or something like that. it is a massive phenomenon. but we are going to have a whole discussion about how we got this way, so i will just throw out one possible cause. a theory coming for a long time not only from the right but some democrats is that hardly means there's something wrong with your character, that you have got bad habits. you have added that lifestyle. you have made the wrong cices. -- youave a bad life style. you have made the wrong choices. are like to present an alternative theory which is that

poverty is not a character flaw. poverty is a shortage of mey. [applause] the biggest reason for that shortage of money is that most working people are not pa enough for their work. [applause] >> how much of the drama that poor people are entering now you think has to do with the demonization, a criminalization of poor people? >> yes, absolutely. if you go out now to get a job, a low-wage job, $8 or $9 an hour, you will be drug tested, personality tested. all the questions will b whether you like to steal, with the like to sell cocaine in the break room, things like that. -- whether you like to sell cocaine in the break room, things like that. there is an assumption that if you are poor,ou are a

criminal, whichhe public sector does its best to make come true. police harasent. some of it is very racially charged, too. [applause] there is the idea that if you are poor, there is something wrong with you, and you should probably end up incarcerated. >> dr. west, i want to come to your next because i want to build on what barbara has laid out for us, at least in terms of how it got to be this way. indiana university this week released white paper called "at risk" which details what this great recession has done to the american public. there is a lot we will pick apart, but let me start with this -- it is pret clear from this report that the new poor in this country are the former middleclass. typically, politicians love --

i'd guess there poles mt encourage them to speak to the banks of the middle-class voter, but how do you talk to the middle-class in ways similar to the past if the new poor in th country have enough to be the former middle-class? >> first, i want to salute you in your leadship. give rather tavis -- brother tavis a hand. very important. i was blessed to go to 18 cities in seven days with him on the poverty tour that he came up with and his team facilitated. we were able to see the middle class brothers and sisters of all colors, all cultures, all civilizations, and sexual orientations. there were also immigrants. our brown brothers and sisters. they were black, brown, white. we started on the indian reservation. it is always fascinating to look at america through the lens of the original people. very important starting point.

the original people. [applause] we began with the notion that poor people are priceless and precious. each individual has the dignity that ought to be affirmed. and what did we see? we saw the results of a system in place that has been driven by corporate greed at the top with oligarchruling and politicians rotating with money coming from the big bank, big corporations pushg working people to the margins and rendering poor people superfluous, which is to say either unnecessary, or in the great metaphor of ralph ellison, invisible. anytime you talk about poor people, you have to talk about the larger systemic context. how could it be that the top 400 inviduals have wells

equivalent to the bottom 150 million fellow citizens -- well -- wealth equivalent to the bottom 150 million a fellow citizens? there is something sk about that people said that it is because they deserve it because they are so smart. i know some smart people that are broke as the 10 commandments. they just cannot get a job. if 1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth and 56% of our precious children of all colors live in or near poverty, something is deeply wrong. it is morally obscene. how could it b that poverty has not become the major moral issue of our time? because our leaders lack courage and independence. they are too tied to big money. [applause] how could it be that the presidential complex has been

expanding and $300 billion has gone into jails and prisons in the criminal-justi system, but when it comes for money for schools, money for housing, money for jobs with a living wage, it is a warped system. we're here because martin luther king, jr., and others said america is a sick society. america does not always have to be sick that americans rise up the way the occupy move that has been talking about and talk about these issues seriously. this is what the issue of poverty as it affects -- the middle class is now declining. if it were just a matter of black, brown, and red, we would be voices in the wilderness. [applause] as long as there is a black face or a brown fe on poverty, we overlook it. as long as there is a brown face, we overlooked it pure white, middle-class base, we

have a problem now. we have to deal with it. [laughter] and that is fine because we believe what brothers and sisters have the same values as red and brown and black and yellow -- we believe white brothers and sisters have the same values. that is why i am is so excited about the manifesto we wrote, brother, and we had a good time writing that thing. we did. >> let me go to roger clay on the other in because i think he can speak to something that dr. west raises. let's play with it. dr. west suggest -- if i could put it in this way -- that party in this country for too many of us is color coded. how much of -- let's tease out what dr. west has given us to work with -- how much of our lack of will to address, here to for at least, the poverty question has to do with the fact that poverty is so color coded? >> a huge amount.

let me throw out an interesting statistic. right now, the unemployment rate is around 8%. 7.9? then at 8.5%. -- >> 8.5%. >> i went back and looked over the last 40 years to see what the unemployment rate was for blacks. only in one year has it been lower than what it is now. to support what you are saying, black folks have been in it for a long, long time, b no one paid attention because they look at the unemployment rate for everybody and not the various poputions. i think it is a good example of what happens in looking at a lot of problems over a lot of different racial minoties. if it does not hit the white community, it did not happen. it did not exist. what is happening now is there are a lot of white folks who

haveallen out of the middle class or are in danger of it, so now, it is a problem, but it was not a problem before, and black folks have been there for that entire time, the last 40 or 50 years, since we have been keeping statistics, and of course, much longer before that >> one of the arguments you are hearing, michael -- it is hard to ask michael a loaded question because it is ju more fun that way. part of what we are hearing from some of those white fks, michael, is that what this conversation represents its class a and b -- class envy. people are jealous, hitting on other people. we are a bunch of haters on all the folks who have money. up to me about the issue. that is the argument -- i literally saw it on the news tonight. mitt romney used that phrase, that it is envy on the part of

many americans against those who happen to be well-off. >> it is war. it is a class war that has been perpetted by the rich on to everybody else. that is a class war. it is one they started. the mistake they made, to deal with the racial card of this, is there but has been on the next of people of color -- their boot has been on the necks of people of color since we began. this was a nation founded on genocide and built on the backs of slaves. [applause] we started with a racial problem. we tried to actually eliminate one entire race, and then we ed another to build this country actually quite quickly into a world power. this country never would have hathe wealth that it had had it not had slavery for a couple of hundred years. [applause]

if it had had to pay people -- if they had actually had to pay people to build america, we might just be at that point in utah where we are joining the two rails together may be at this point right now. [laughter] here is what i find really interesting -- corporate america and wall street -- they are always thinking about -- "what isn it for us? how it going to work for us?" they actually need party. they need poor people. the system does not work unless there is a good chunk of poor people. -- they actually need poverty. they had a permanent port class, mostly people of color -- they had a permanent class of poor that they could use as essentially a threat to the middle class. "if you ask for too muc if you

ask for higher wag, if you expect health benefits, it you want a day off, you cou very quickly be over there with those people -- if you want a day off. they knew how to use this group to manipulate this group. the huge catastrophic tactical mistake that they have made, because of their incredible greed -- and they came up with it essentially because of the housing thing. after they used the poor, they thought they were not making enough money, so what could they get off of the middle class. well, wait a minute, they all own homes. let's do the mortgage thing. this was before they went into the inner city to connive and scam poor people. they have been dog that for a long time. the idea over the 1990's and part of the last decade was to figure out how to make the call middle-class -- essentially put

the one thing they had some investments in -- their home -- up to either get a second mortgage or to get a better home or whatever, and they figured out -- this is what iseally amazing to me, just thinking about this, because president obama just appointed jack lew as his new chief of staff. if you do not know who he is, he ran the operation of citibank a few years ago. he ran the particular department at citibank -- the hedge fund department that was assigned to take out bets against the housing industry, that it would collapse. he ran the department to bet on the housing mortgage industry collapsing. that is now the white house chief of staff. >> boo! >> the mistake the wealthy have

made and why we have this whole occupy wall street movement, a poll of 76 percent of americans believing taxes should be raised on the rich -- you have never seen that number because they have always convinced the middle-class that they could be the. they could be rich someday. "we will not because in america, anybody can make it. i might be used someday." [laughter] hooray for welfare, rig? they made the huge mistake of taking that away from the white middle class. they went after them. they went after theiromes. they moved their jobs overseas. they took their health care ay. they made it so their children would be the first generation in the history of this country who would be worse off than their parents' generation. i remember saying this on your show a decade ago, tavis, that

when this thing -- you have always asked me when it is going to happen, when people are going to stand up. you show a clip of me on your show. i am down there wrapping crime scene tape around thetock exchange on the back of a brinks truck up to goldman sachs to get our money back, and i am alby myself. [applause] you kept asking me when the revolution was going to happen, and i said that it would happen -- it is when they will, and they will, go after the people who have things and try to take them away from them. it is one thing you have always been poor and you have never owned that nice house, never been able to take that european vacation. you wished that you could, t you really do not know really what it like. but if you have been in the middle class and you have had

that nice home and that vacation, and you have been able to send your children to the university, and now, the system says, "we are taking that away from you," now there is hell to pay, and that is what is happening. the final thing i want to say is that what i not understand is that wall street and the banks -- they have so overplayed their hand here. they should have just east of a year or two ago, you know? they should have just backed off, and they could have had their larger class of permanent war, but i think it works in their benefit. why would we have poverty -- if wall street and the rich got poverty was b, they could erase it. if they really thought it was not good for them, right? they have the means to get rid of it. they would get rid of it. but they do not. they need it. they need this large -- half the

country -- living in anxiety and fear and the other half over here are the ones that they will sell their goods to. that is rely actually messed up economics because they have been going for the short-term gain. sooner or later, they are not going to make their money on that. sooner or later, the chinese are not going to be in poverty. people are going to rise up in other countries. you will not be able to go over there and do this for 10 cents an hour. people eventually what was good for themselves and for their kids, and i think they have made a colossal mistake. i think you're going to see -- you are seeing it now -- this large group of the american public -- 150 million -- rising up. [applause] >> this conversation out here at george washington is made possible thanks to the general -- generous support of the

kellogg foundation, so thank the kellogg foundation for making this possible. there's a particular question submitted from the kellogg website that i wanted to get to tonight. it is a great segue to you, suze. michael just referenced the number of americanwho have always been poor. i call them the perennially poor. all too often, children whgrow up in poverty tend to stay in poverty. what factors do you really contribute to this lifelong trajectory among american families? that phrase got me -- this lifelong trajectory amongst too many american families? we know suze orman as the most regarded financial eert in this country, to my mind. you might not know that white suze grew up on the black side,

the south side of chicago. [applause] in a whole lot of poverty. obviously, she has made her way out of that, but she has a unique perspective on the perennially poor in this country that might -- again, not seem plausible at first glance. talko me again about what keeps people in poverty. >> what is interesting is this -- and i will take a little different approach if i can -- >> you certainly can. >> years ago, i have told people, "people, be careful. the rich are getting richer. the poor are getting poorer, and sooner than later, the middle class will not exist." the people that call into the show now used to be middle- class. i am here to tell you, they are all now in poverty. the face of poverty has changed.

the face of poverty is the person sitting next to you. it is every single color. what keeps us in poverty is that there is a highway into poverty, and it is nlonger even a sidewalk out. to get out of poverty, you have to have a source of income. you have to have the ability to generate money so that you are not poor. it is not brain science, but you cannot make money if there is not a job for you to have. even if you do make money, you cannot afford to pay things, especially when you see the prices of food out there and what it costs. everything is set up, as michael has said, that once y are poor, they have you exactly where they want you. i do not give them as much credit as you do in that i do not think they are smart enough to know what they did, purposely. [applause] i do not. i think they go after money, and

we do not know what to do because we are educated. we are not educated on monday. when someone says to, "signed here, you can have your american dream," you believe them, and you believe them because you want more for yourself, and why would they lie to you? well, they did, everybody. the one thin i can tell you -- people always say to me when i'm on thehows, "they knew what they were doing. they knew how to sign those papers. do not tell me that they did not get themsels in poverty." i will never forget it was in 2008, oprah asked me, "how is this all happening?" my answer is very simple -- the lies, deceit, and the greed of the corporations and wall street and the banking institutions. it was just that simple. all of you fell for their scams.

so you stay in poverty. when nobody can teach you how to get out of it because there are no tools for you to dig your way out of this whole. there is no tools that they are providing for you, but i am convinced that with the right type of education and with some new tools that could aid the people in poverty, that they can get themselves out, but if you are counting on the administration to get you out, if you are counting on the economy to get you out, if you are counting on any other country to get you out, i am here to tell you, you are fooling yourself. there is you have got to give power to your voice and settle for last -- and not settle for less. what changes is when people

start to boys how unhappy they are. if you are simply stopped from the corporations that are keeping me down. >> i'm going to come back to susie. i mention that she may gain major announcement. i want to come back to that in a second. i want to ask majora a question about poverty, alleviation, and environmental remediation. i want to ask that, majora, andause poorr people

t just that in poverty. so often they are stuck in certain pockets, a ceain neighborhoods. they cannot get out. often there is no transportation. there is an varmint to racism. there is a link between poverty and environment. >> thank you. my work has been based that it could be used as a toll to create economic -- tool to trea economic stability i am known for transforming dumps into parks. what they did was provide visual reminder that because

they look that way they do not have to be there always. no community should have to bear the brunt. we know that race and class is both. it will determine where you find a good step. it is not just that those are not nice things to be around. they also produce some others. whether it is because of fossiltory problems or els causing learning disabilities. it adds to the complex.

it has the fabric of our communities. it stabilizes families. it does not provide the different type of development. it can provide different jobs. it may seem very excited. we have seen in countries. we have seen in inner-city ghettos. there is hope in opportunity that we have missed a lot of. the fact that we can create a new economic opportunities around things like how do we adapt our country, in particular our coastal areas? we can use environmentally sound ways to support things like storm water management and

energy conservation while creating real jobs that provide opportunities for people who have been left behind by our education system for so long. whether it is urban forestry management, things of that nature that provide municipal services as well. it aspires to really help and do the uniended consequences. it made it so that we are more racially segregated. oncee have integration, those that have more money were able to leave. if we can use real-estate development to creaturely mixed income communities, bring back the resources so poor people are not always so poor, burning

things like manufacturinand other commercial opportunities while keeping an eye toward the environment li-sao things that do not continue to destroy the fabric of our community. we can do that. we can do it. we can do more of it. >> i want to get vicki involved. there has been for a few years, i think about the number of times i have asked of this of use and others of my programs. it is about the notion of bringing -- greening the ghetto and the way to let people out of poverty was to do just that, to find a green jobs for those persons. has that turned out to be a bunch a rhetoric? can you point any of us to a

place where we have seen green jobs come on line? >> we have not seen the kind of green job creation that i was hoping would happen in the south bronx. it really was looking at how you create markets for the kind of jobs that need to be done at in our economy and make sure their training people to do that work. they make sure there are jobs on the other end of it. that type of work was something that was needed in our city. we knew it. it was helping. we know those type of things actually helped reduce -- improve air quality. you want to do things of that

nature. the problem that i have seen is that some of my most well- meaning peers have put the cart before the horse. we could either chain people to the market ripe enough? we did not do that work. >> i appreciate your patience. >> i love that modesty. it is perfect timing. what she was talking about in these pockets of poverty are the people get stuck with these conditions. one of the things you know better than anybody is that in these pockets of poverty people have access to less food, fruit,

meat, vetables, e. they are exposed to less. when most americans think about hunger and food and security, they do not think of it as an american problem. they think about the fomercial's weee on late- night television. the african babies with big bellies. talk to me about what the mbers are saying about hunger in america rht now. >> the numbers are huge. there are 50 million americans that are hungry. they do not know when their next meal will come. they're worrying about how they will speak to their children. they come in on monday morning with not enough to eat.

they are fidgety and not learning. we know this. they are senior citizens that are living on a fixed income. they are too modest an embarrassed to ask for help. we have seen the numbers doubled since the last recession, 150 million people? that is a crisis. we have a crisis in front of us. the interesting thing is it is up until now it has been hit in. i read that over 62% of americans really believe there is a divide around it. they are concerned about it. there is the intersection about hunger and poverty and education. it is the ability to get out of the bottom of the wrong.

they are worried about it. how do people react and work as far as those that are hungry? they look like all of us. we all know somebody that is struggling. the work that we do, we do the biggest research around hunger in america. ithows that it has doubled since the nerecession. the people that are coming to our food banks and into food stamp offices for the first time has grown by 30%. that 30% are people that are visiting tt have never been there. it is the middle class. i was thinking about this as your getting ready for the panel. it is solving some really big issues.

this is an issue of leadership. this is half of our country. if we do not do this now, we never will. >> i want to have some fun. vicki offers me a wonderful segue. she said what many are leaders. we need leadership. we're sitting in washington right now. i know five under 35 people who think they are leaders. i know a another guy i could definitely thinks he is a leader. there are some folks in this town who regard themselves as

leaders. what we are lacking is leadership. why is it that there seems to be a bipartisan consensus and this town that the poor do not matter? >> i hope you all noticed the tears in the ski -- in vicki's eyes. it has to do with someone who cares. the tears have to do with recognizing the condition of poor people in america. it is a matter of national security like iraq and afghanistan, like whatever foreign-policy we know. part of the problem is do not have elected leaders who understand the tears. >> i want to jump in quickly. you say that poverty is an

issue of national security. >> namely that if we do not come to terms, there is not the external threat. it will lead toward a collapse of american democracy. it is an oligarchy of hypocrisy. poor people are at each other's throats. america goes under as we know it. am right about your tears? >> i am right. >> i feel it. one reason why we do not have a leadership among the 536 is that they are not leading in a way that they make working people a priority. when investment bankers are in trouble, and they lead. they saw the problem. when the banking is a problem, if they lead. we need to go to war.

>> you're not going to pay for it. that is the kind of leadership. it is narrow. it leads to a catastrophe. what we need is a courageous, progressive leadership. his starkly in america, it has been primarily black folk -- historical in america, it has been primarily the black people that have shown the leadership. it taught the country how to love. this is what they look like in public. the top is about love. right now the bac folk -- black

folks the tradition is weak and feeble. you do not have to be black to be part of that tradition. you have to be connected with it and used to be a part of it. it is not a matter of stereotype. it is tradition tt has taught american the best about itself on how to love others even when you are hated and revenge is coming in. it is not just a political question. we have 536 leaders that are so obsessed with power and money. how are we going to get the lobbyists satisfy? how we get money for the next election? when it comes to the condition of our precious children, it is an afterthought.

they talk about it during the election. we're going to go under. >> it is so brilliant what you just said. let's redefined the term. >> the five under 37 are not leaders. their followers. they follow the money. they do what they are told. as long as we have money in politics, is still be so hard to do any of these things we want to do. they are just a servant to wall street. wall street says do this. "park my car.

."p me some more supe that is why the movement is not called occupy washington. it is god occupy wall street. that is where you go. they are the puppets. >> it raises a fundamental question. if michael is right, both parties are beholden to wall reet. we are now in a presidential race. mr. obama is raising money respectively. if they are both beholden to the wall street money, no matter what they say, what do we do?

>> i do not want to break into the panel. i want to push michael and cornel on this. he is like my leader. he has been tell me what to do. i've been following him around and trying to do it. you are a good leader. you are. however, i want to see the discussions move past leaders. whether we're talking about the ones in congress, a so-called leaders, or whoever we are talking out. we took a huge leap in the last few months. we had for the first time a liter less movement. a proud and leaderless movement.

was a crazy? was in not so -- was it nuts? no. everybody became a leader. by ourselves, we willot do much. you're saying anybody can get out of poverty if they have the right knowledge and skills. i am n going to argue with that. we have discovered something in the last few months that is bigger than the power of any individual. that is the power of solidarity, people working together. defend yourng to house against the share of one for closure time comes. against the sheriff when

foreclosure time comes. that is our strength. it is a very strong part of the american position. it has been kind of a race for a culture that says you can get yours all by yourself. don't hang out with losers. it to be a leader yourself. we're going together. we're going to do this together. we have the strength of "we." >> of want to come back to suze now. i bought this -- i brought this up because when you say people can let them out of poverty if they have the tools, what kind of tools are missing?

>> to come out of poverty you also need help. you need to believe that you can come out of poverty. it only takes one. if one person can make a move toward it, then you start to get the solidarity. if you all keep thinking there's nothing i can do and there is no hope, then there is no hope. i was at the national press corps today. somebody came up. i said "what is your name." she said "just another one of those unemployed people." that is how she introduced herself. it means she has no hope. if you have no hope, we have nothing. it takes one person to just have hope and the people around them

to get the spark that true change come about. to the one thing that the tool that i think is important that i am trying to work on, i do not know by will be successful, it seems that many people do not want me to be successful with this, but the main thing i want to change in the united states of america are fico scores. [applause] the y that fico score is used to be calculated was a lot different than we are in now. to no fault of your own, you lost your home, you lost your ca you lost everything. you lost your ability to pay. a of taken everything. they're even taking your fico score. so now you are really fico-ed.

without a good score, if you pp to own a good car, no matter what kind, your premiums are high. landlords will not reach you. employers are starting not to hire you. if you want to do anything to change the situation, good luck getting a loan at all. if you happen to get a loan, it will be at the highest interest rates possible. the main thing i am trying to do is that get people who pay in cash or bond debt that to change. if you pay in cash are on a debit card, it does not report to a credit bureau. the for you do not have a score. therefore you are a non entity. you doot exist in the

financial system at all, people. if you want to just pay your way in cash, you do not count. if you count the time if you run up your credit cards and have a minimum paid do every month. then you really count. you are paying their way with 20's arm and 30% interest. -- 20% and 30% interest. i am trying to change things of that a debit card create a fico store so we can get rid all together.ards when you are tempted to do somethg when it comes to money, you tended to. i want to get that temptation

out. i want to go back to america and build up your fico score so one day he can have a car or a home. the you can one day get that job or rent an apartment. you are now an entity because you have paid with what you have obvees with what you -- versus with what you wish you had. all i can tell you is that i and many people who do not want me to succeed. there is serious money and credit cards. there is serious money i prepaid cards that charge exorbitant fees. i am trying to do something that is a little out othe ordinary. nobody wants me to do it. and they want to keep everybody down so people that take advantage continue to do so.

i am going to continue to fight for you. [applause] two years time from this date, if this works, you will be able to get a credit score simply if you have a debit cards. that is my goal. >> i want to come back to you. i want to ask something that is a bit elephant in the room. since to open the door to it, i want to come back. i'm not asking this to beyond the spot. to many americans are suffering

from poverty right now. the gro that is being hurt the most and being hit the hardest, and the numbers theclearly are african americans. you lived in oakland. it is an pedometer african- american city. there are other pockets across this country. black people right now are catching the most hell. to my mind, they lovily and respectfully are the most [inaudible] about the they are catching. it it is about our love and supports of barack obama as president and the effort to get him elected. i get that. i do want to put this o there. i am curis as to whether or not the historical power in the

black prophetic tradition, if the people catching the most hell are not saying anything and giving the president cover, and then how did the other folks who are trying to find the courage to raise their own voices to keep themselves from being invisible, we have done this historically. what happens if we continue to be as silent as we are? i am not saying that the president has to be demonized. i am saying when they are doing that in silence, it raises the question as to what the paying the threshold -- pain threshold really is for black folks. >> we talked about what you're going to ask. i was hoping to give it to somebody else.

let me first tell you about how i feel about how i become president. i am extremely disappointed, more so than i ever thought i could be. i think part of the reason i am disappointed is because i had hoped for a light. the disparity between what he has done and what i hoped, some of my hope was based on unrealistic expectations. [applause] and so even though i am very disappointed, i was born when roosevelt was president. i do not think that there has been a better president for our

people since i have been alive. i am very mixed. because he is black, i still have very high expectations. some things are well done. i think he has done some things that are well done that they did not say much about. my biggest disappointment is that i do not see a leadership on the issue. i do not think you go around talking about race. you do have to go around talking but issues tt affect black people. not just black people, because we are just a canary. it is everybody. everybody is experiencing now is something what we have been expressing f a long time. what dwe do about that?

one of the difficulties now is looking at the alternatives. you really do not know. would you rather have him are one of the others? i am clear on the republican side what i would rather have a. i would rather have barack obama. my hope is that he does get reelected. but that because it will be his last term, at least the first two years he will turn out to be a great president. right now he is a social president. i do think that we have to keep the pressure on. i am glad there are people that can go out and s it. that is not what all of our roles are. i do not think if he gets reelectednd there is not

sutantial change that people will be quiet. we're going to lose because of that, people are not going to be supportive of the democratic party. >> let's take a step further. black people are catching the most heall among -- hell among the president's space and they're the most loyal constituency. there is a larger problem year, which is democrats more broadly -- how do you lovingly and respectably push the leader of the free world to say and to do more about poverty? i have never asked. i'm never asked the president to walk around talking about black, blac black.

but when americans of all color and race and ethnicity and gender, etc., when all americans are now falling into poverty, it does raise a question as to what they do more broadly to respectively push them to use the pulpit during this campaign year to say and do more about the poor and about making poverty a priority. do you have any magical way, and a great idea, about how we go about doing that ta? >> yes. i have an optimistic answer. bac in election day dump the 2008, everybody remember going into the voting booth. i looked down at the ballot. i saw this man's name. i never thought in my lifetime that i would ever have a chance to do what i was about to do and vote for him.

i cheered up. did anyone else have that experience? [applause] up.terally teared i was literally moved. in mich., weak color a circle with a felt pen. smeared the tears ballot. >> a you voted have for mccain >> no. my wife was outside asking what the is going on in theire? it was such an emotional day. we had just under eight years of our country being driven down the toilet. [applause] we had gone through 8 years of after the world feeling our pain and being on our side turning against us after we became a

country that invaded other countries. to finally have someone that was going to stand up to this, and yes you're right about the expectations and the rose colored glasses that maybe we wanted. we also knew that goldman sachs was his number one contributor. we thought it did not matter. we know the man had a good heart. we know that. he still has a good heart. we know his conscience. we know that. we know his wives conscience -- wife's conscience. we know his family. i am profoundly disappointed. those tears on election day have continued through these past three years. here is what i would like to say. we are live on c-span. we are just a few blocks from the white house.

it just in case he is watching, which camera would he be on? president obama, here is the deal. the republicans have done as a huge favor. they have run the circus. i do not understand why wall street did not put up somebody to remove you because they are not really entirely happy with you. yet they have not run anybody who is going to be you. [applause] therefore, without chasing the election, without providing clips for fox news to run the day ter the election, let me just say i think there is a pretty good chance you're going to win this election. [cheers and applause]

therefore, let's not lose anher year before addressing the issues that we're discussing. you do not have to worry. u are going to have another four years. you have the opportunity to be the roosevelt of the 21st century. if you remember throughout and to brought this country to the place we should be, even though it was genocide and svery, that somehow it took this african american to bring us to be place where we always knew we could be and to help treat the american dream for every person that suze is talking about. if i put an eight hour day, i

can try my own car and semi kids to college. that is all they're asking for -- and send my kids to college. that is all they're asking for. [applause] >> the irony is just overwhelming for me that you get a white brother from michigan expressing the best of the black prophetic tradition to a black brother in the white house. [applause] who's the head of the american empire. it is not about stereotypes. it is about what type of human being you're going to be when you move from your mom is going to the tune. i do have -- when you move from your mother's womb to the tomb.

i do it to say this. even when we knew the mean- spirited republicans pushed as to the brink of catastrophe, we also knew that the system itself was broken. just like when the blackayors took over cities that were in the process of breaking down, you get a black president in the white house and the process of a national system that is breaking down. we got to keep our focus on the system and the bodies and souls that come together and mobilize. in the end, and this is what elected martin luther king making an indispensable, that it not about one person or president. it is about a fundamental transformation. we need a transfer of power from unaccountable oligarchies

to everyday people. that is what we're talking about. if you know enough about the future that you're willing to take a risk and live and maybe die. my first prayer for barack obama is the safety of this family. his precus two little ones and his wife. white supremacy is a real. it is very real. all of those who have lived under those threats, and they know exactly what their getting into. most of your friends aren't dead. they're willing to sacrifice. most people do not want to die. they would rather sell out then die.

what we're talking about is not just one individual. we are talking about what kind of people we are. if we do not have enough ordinary citizens of all colors to fight for your democracy just like a fight for it in afghanistan under leadership formulations, then we're going to lose the democracy and poor people will still be caught. that is the challenge is seems to me. peopleere willing to fight for the british monarchy. they pushed up the imperialists. the second was slavery. they pushed out slavery. it is just another form of slavery. that challenge in america is in the oligarchy. we have to have leadership that says we love oligarchs.

they are human beings and make choices and they can change their minds. they can choose to be white supremacists or fight white supremacy. you have to make a choice. >> i want to ask barbara. to those watching right now see your passion but would suggest it is a bit hyperbolic to say that you have overstated the case by suggesting that the future of our democracy is at stake, that sounds anti-american and you do not believe in the idea of american exception listen. are you overstating the case that our democracy is at stake? >> i was a look at the elections. democracy is all but gone anyway. all you need to do is look at

the super pac and the supreme court that is happening for the money flowing in. we have to somehow renew it. it is not hyperbolic in this sense. >> there is a threat that we're to left. you are correct. he was actually being kind in terms of how it is. >> the overwork him. >> are you building on my optimism? the of the awful truth is that our democracy is hanging on by its last one or two threads. it is paid for a controlled by the bas and wall street by corporate america and by the 1% that rule this country. what are the water to threads that are left? -- one or two threads that are left? they still say it is one person

and one vos. they can run ads aand keep suze from getting a good credit for, but she is talking about something so revolutionary. the current debt in student debt have been fighting each other for number one. [applause] >> what i want to say to anybody watching or listening, and that one thread that is still there, the one person/ one vote, the one thing that they cannot do is come into that booth with me or you once we close the curtain. at their hand is not on our hands. it is our hand.

we still get the choice. the problem is the lack of choice. the problem is that in a nation of 300 million people, we have only two choices. one is aice choice, but they are both feeding at the same trough. 01 will appoint better justices but they are still feeding from the same corporate trough. until we remove money from politics and have more choices on the ballot in go back to voting on paper ballots so there is a real count so we can see to be voted for, until we get rid of the electoral college -- [applause] until we moved election day to the weekends -- [applause] let's make it ey.

the reason why the 1% are trying to get all the laws passed this year to repress the vote to make it more difficult, and the reason they are doing it which is kind of a positive thing is a why would they be doing that if they believed that the majority of america agreed with them and fox news tax if they honestly felt that the majorit of america believed in wall street and the 1% and right wing, and some of casting voter suppression laws, they would be passing laws put in voting booths in every aisle in walmart. they want as many people voting as possible if they thought they were the people supporting the values. the majority of americans are with us. the majority wants the rich to pay their fair share. the majority wants regulations put back on wall reet.

the majority what somebody arrested for the crap. that is what the majority wants. we're not going to get our third or fourth in ts election. where not going to be able to take the money out before november. what we have to do, all of us, this great movement that is taking place that had stem billion lits that has 10 million -- that has 10 million liters is they have to figuratively put their hands on the third of every leader running and say i want a promise that you will makeour priority to remove money from politics and not the money from the banks. if they feel the heat from that.

there's a desperate to be elected, that is more powerful than the money than they're getting. they cannot win without your vote. you have to let the democrats and barack obama played that card of where else are you going to go? they do not want to do that. they really do not want to do that. they saw what happened in 2000. there are enough penstock people that will actually go somewhere else and can cause a huge ruckus. they do not have to go very far to think of an example of what happens when you pump on those that have left. imagine obama calling a press conference in going "i have decided that this year i am returning all the money i have

ceived from wall street and i'm not taking one dime from wall street in this election right now." what you think would happen? think about the support he would have. how many in here went door to door and phone calls and everything in 20008? as, many people can wait to get back on the phone banks? it is not there. he could turn that around by not waiting until after the election but changing it right now. the majority is already with him. >> for those watching right now you are saying that -- who are saying that we have tried to eradicate poverty and we have for more money at poverty, there are more poverty programs than there have ever been, we have done this since the johnson era, it ain't worked.

for all of you gs on the stage, put down the crack pipe and get a life, if there has to be another way to do this. we have tried this, it has not worked. >> i would say, this is my own point of view, this is really not surprising that there are so many people in poverty when you consider wages and policies. it is not even surprising in the way that we provide so little of a safety net to people who are falling. the disgusting andhocking thing is tt not only do we not tell people who are having trouble but we kick them a little further. the whole system is rigged so that if you start to spiral down you're going to spiral faster. there is no latter going up -- ladder going up, ther eis re isa

free shoot going down. employers not like to hire people with poor credit scores. most employers now check credit scores. what is that about? they do not want to hire people who need money? they don't like to hire people who are unemployed. that is so weird i have to say it again. did they do not want to hire people who need jobs. go figure. once you start down, these are going faster and faster. your debts mount. it is the possibility of legal trouble. it is something i wa looking into today. it is so horrifying. you apply for food stands in most states.

your information enters the criminal justice system computers. if there is a warrant o for you caught red that is it. they found you, right --out for you, that is it. they found you, right? it is part of a dragnet to bring in more peo =-- poor people, aka "criminals." when we see people who were down, we have a system in place that takes them down further. >> is it an overstatement to say that there is aar on the poor right now? >> no. you can say that. you can quote me. >> roger, i saw your hand

earlier period's >> --i m your -- i saw your hands earlier. >> this conversation is seductive. we're talking about poverty. we ought to talking about people being economically secu, something much more positive. it sounds like we are also saying let's go backo the good old days. i do not remember any good old days. i do not want to go back to anything. if i go to these 1970's, 1980's, 1940's, it was not good. not talk about that. let's talk about what we will do going forward. it may have been good for some people, but democracy has never worked for most of us. it is more visible now. the thing about occupy is that

it is 99 as opposed to 50% or 40's there. american use the word hope earlier. americans are really good at hope. the way we do hope is that it is delusional. poll after poll says that most americans think they're going to be rich. for that reason they protect the rich. it is changing now because it has gotten so bad and you have different people that are poor. people of color have always been in this situation. democracy is the other word. what w have to do is change the systems.

the systems create war. the key people pour. we need a totally new system. i will say what i am optimistic about. things will t so bad that we will actual treaty different system. that is what i am optimistic about. i think over the next tender 15 years we can do that. it is not going to happen anytime so. we're talking about things used to be better. by so want to talk later about how we imagines that better america. how we imagined going forward and not having to think about the good old days. we will do that later in this conversation.

>> no. wanted to go back to what barbara it said. there's a lot of programs that support people living in poverty and people that are poor, people that our food and secure. for most stas to fill out a food stamp application, it is 30 pages. it is easier to get a gun. can you imagine being a single mother going into out reach office what you are working and having to rest their filling out the food stamp application. we cannot even seem to organize around simplification of a simple form like a food stamp application. syndication of benefits is something that we can work on. another met bought a round these programs predict another man -- another myth around these programs ithat we are spending

too ch money on these families. the reality is that food stamps for a family of three are making $22,000 a year. didhey get a benefit of about $135 a month. think about the price of food today. we all know it is at record highs. that is a reality. how far do you think living in washington, d.c. or in new york or washington, how far does that go? when you start hearing people talk about we' spending too much money on programs that are supporting people that are living in poverty and food insecurity, that is absolute nonsense. that is absolute nonsense. [applause] i am really concerned that many of these programs are really up for grabs.

the reason they're up for grabs is because that politicians, especially new politicians, do not look at the individuals they are affecting. they did not look at the humans and the stories behind the people. they did not know the families. they do not know how hard people are trying to work. they look at the numbers. they think "we can cut 5% our or a box of food to a senior citizen that is making $9,000 a year." you try going to a senior citizen in michigan and saying "cannot give you a food box." that is reality. >> i want to ask suze the first part of this question. i want to ask a question specifically about students.

michael raise this point early, suze, about student loan debt. i want to do this real quick. it seems to me you get into college, which is what everybody tellsthat is if you want any che in making it in america. you have to get a college education at a great school like george washington. you come out of school and you have that coming out of your ears. then you cannot find a job in this economy on top of that. you are supposed to somehow still believe that you can achieve, that you can have, that the american dream is still for you. talk about this issue of student loans and how that is setting another generation of americans so far behind in pushing them so much deeper into poverty.

>> here is what makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. student loan debts is the only debt that in 99.9999% of the cases cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. the federal loan debt that can occur from the stafford loan, usually does not pay for the cost of a university education, so you end up getting private student loan debt from banks. banks are not regulated like the federal government, were the m.a.c. chairman -- with a maximum interest rate is 6.8%. on a plus loan, you are looking at 7.9%.

have the ability to go to 15, 18, 19%, and the u.s. government bankruptcy laws protect those banks. so the banks can screw y with the interest rates that are charging you, and you do not have any rights whatsoever to say i cnot afford this. then the system allows you to defer your student loans, up to do forbearance on your student loans. what does that mean? simply means that you don't have to pay it right away, but the interest continues to accumulate. listen to me closely here. there are not a lot of safe places to make money tay, and they know that. many of these banks and institutions by them at and they are lending to you at 6% or

8%. when you don't pay it back, they are thrilled because it starts to compound and compound, and $40,000 turns into $80,000 turns into $150,000. in you think you have been getting away with something because you hav't been able to pay it, and then they contact you and you have got to pay back that $150,000. you cannot. what did they do? they will garnish your wages, they will garnish your social security check. so when you are taking out student loans -- parents out there, when you are cosigning a private student loan, you better be very, very careful, because some of the private student loans state that if the person you cosign for dies, they don't care. you are stuck paying the student

loan for as long as it is going to take, even if the student is no longer here. all the rides are going to the institution. if you think expensive education is going to get you a job whe there are no jobs out there to be gotten. [applause] >>his is the best thing i have heard up here tonight. this is going to continue. even if we stop them on this scam, the beast will come up with the next scam. the monster haso be fed. until we change the system, and we are talking about capitalism. not the old kind of capitalism, work hard, do well, everybody

benefits. we are talking about capitalism as defined in the 21st century. t it up so that just a few succeed, and everybody else suffers and service them. this ultimately has to change. e way we structure this economy, this has to change. this has to be a democratic economy where you and i control it, not wall street you have done these symposiums for so many years. . won't have thi hair if we don't thing that we did change the thing that is at the core of this evil -- >> until it changes, we have to be educated not to make the mistakes they want you to make.

>> this is very important. that is why you have this the first panel appear. we also need to talk the larger thing that has to change, which is an economic system that is unjust, unfair, and not democratic. until that changes, we are screwed. >> is a global affairs, not just a national affair. you cannot really look forward until you look back. what you look back at are the great, courageous, loving, sacrificial people who shake to, like my mother and father and your mother and father and grandparents. what the black tradition has taught you is that if you don't have a sense of history, if you

don't put yourself in a narrative that is rooted in something deeper than just money and fame and quick success and instant gratification, then the very capitalism we are talking about has produced such shallow people that they are never going to straighten up their backs and take a stand against anything because they are up for sale. >> i totally agree that history is very important. i am very proud of my history. native american history -- i don't understand how they are not crazy in terms of what happened to them. all i am trying to say is, we don't want to go back there. we want to learn from there, but we don't want to go back. we have to go forward.

the world is very different than it used to be. it calls for a term elite -- totally different method, totally different tools. in this country, with the changing demographics, it changes everything. race cannot play quite the same role that it played before. >> love, courage, integrity, willingness to serve and sacrifice, that is rostov, and we don't want to lose any of that. -- the at israw stuff. >> i am says the about the students, but i don't want to leave out theabies, these children -- i asked susie about the students. the data is abundantly clear accot. simply put, the younger you are in america, the more likely you are to be in poverty. it is just that simple. the younger you are in america, the more likely you are to be in

poverty. the indiana university white paper _ is that as well. --underscores that as well. what we say in this present moment in america about and to a nation that allows that statistic to be the reality? >> is one of the major indictments, they are more likely to be in the worst social conditions. what kind of peoe are we, when we examine ourselves and acknowledge that reality? that is not just that, that is pathological. it really is. i am anti-in justice in america. that is not the same as anti- american. the question becomes, if we are really serious about being

poverty abolitionists and calling for the eradication and abolition of poverty, we got to target the young people from birth to five years old. all the evidence talks about the shaping of their minds and hearts and souls. this cannot just a matter of programs. it is a matter of civic society. what kind of discourse -- does this kind of discourse take place in churches and synagogues? no. there are other priorities at work. what is going on? the renaissance of comssion and the nonviolent, democratic revolution we are calling for against oligarchy is across the board in every sphere of our ciety. that is part of the consciousness raising that needs to take place. >> this has been interesting.

what struck me, i want to go back earlier to susie's point, because this will be revolutionary. let's look at what is, working within the system which is the capitalist system. maybe -- i don't think i am one of the only people who embraced their inner capitalist. well participate in some way, shape, or form. the queion is, what can we do in the interim before somebody abolishes it and comes up with something else. in the meantime, what are we going to do right now? i come from one of the poorest congressional districts in this country. people are not having this conversation. they are having conversations about what is really impacting

them. that is what i am hoping we can actually get to the root of right now. how do we make poor people less poor? jesus said there'll always be the poor among us. that't think he ever said have to stay that way. that is where we start thinking about within the confines of the system we are in right now, what can we do to actually help our leaders have vision? how do we be the leaders with vision ourselves and show that there is another way of doing things? that is what we really need to be talking about, in ways that are practical. with all the vision iave, i am practical. i want to make sure that people are doing accessible jobs that allow them to move up and out of poverty in ways that are real, meaningful, and have lasting impact or their families and communities. i struggleddon't --

with the idea of gentrification and displacement in a bunch of different ways. when people talk about it in so many ways, it is like, you are going to push the poor people out. poor people don't like living in poor places. can we talk very seriously about that? [applause] when we think about what happened with integration, i don't think dr. king was thinking that when people have the ability to live wherever they want, they should not leave the other people behind. i don't believe that was on his mind, but that basically is what happened. why is that happening? what have we lost?

what have we not done? what did you say, for 40 years we have not had black unemployment any better than it was? that is a scary, scary thought. really? really? >> yes, really. >> why are we not thinking about different ways of saying -- we can come up with ways to create new opportunities in our inner cities, in their rural and poor areas, the kind of places that need the economic development to support or people and move them out of poverty, so we are not talking about them like a thing that is demonized and criminalize, but allowing them to actually move that experienced the american dream. [applause]

>> in theradition of the black church, i would say amen to everything you just said. i have heard seven or eight practical things, a very real things on this stage in this conversation tonight that can be done and ought to be done to make the poor less pork. -- make the poor less poor. dr. west a ment ago used the term poverty abolitionist. juxtaposed those of us on the stage who are, but there are also poverty deniers in this country. there are poverty deniers and

poverty apologists. i wonder what we say to them tonight. with all the data that is out there, how can people still deny that poverty is real and is as real as it is, and yet you see them on television and in the media all the time, as if this is some sort of fantasy. >> let me say something about that. you cannot do anything about the people that are so clueless. if they are denying this fact, we are in the country. that poll that said that 21% of republicans believe that "back obama maybe the antichrist." 21% of them actually believe that. there is nothing you can do about tt. you just have to say we are a big country. there are 30 million people that are just don't cold crazy. but there are 270 million that are not.

[laughter] you ju made such an excellent point. while some of us are trying to abolish capitalism, or if it is a more comfortable work for you, agreed -- that is just another word for it. the practical things right now, if they do have cable and are able to watch this. [applause] if not, it is on pbs next monday, tuesday, and wednesday. [applause] >> you ask about all these party programs and people complain about poverty. here is a poverty program that everyone should get behind, jobs. isn't that really at the core of

what everybody haseen saying? if you have a job and you are paid a decent wage, a livable wage, isn't that really the eradication of this poverty, if you are paid a wage so that you are not in poverty? how do we create those jobs? corporate america, 4500, are sitting on $2 trillion cash in their bank accounts. in the past, that has never happened. " corporations do when they make money is they then spend that money to create more jobs. ftory andd another we can make more of that, and employ more people. that is how we used to work, kind of. now what they are doing is, they are making record profits and putting money in their bank account, and doing it in part

because it is their rainy day fund. they know the other shoe has not dropped ticket they are still doing credit defaults swaps and derivatives and all th crazy stuff on wall street. they know another crash could happen. any of a number of things could happen. they want to make sure they are protected. if we force them, if congress could force them t say, you have to release that money, you cannot afford it money, if i live in a town in northern michigan where it is very cold in the winter and there is no natural gas, you use heating oil to heat your home. if the heating oil company down the road was hoarding all the oil and not selling it to people so they could heat their homes in the winter, what would those people do? rise up.

if that heating oil company doesn't want to sell your their oil, they don't have to. well, that has to change. that $2 trillion has been taken out of circulation. it has to be put back into circulation. we need a roosevelt-style jobs program right now. we need real jobs with real wages. we need to start the eradication of poverty. >> let me challenge that. i don't know in this era, i don't know a single corporate co who gets rewarded for hiring anybody that he or she does not have to have. take that argument to its logical extension.

one could argue that this economy is never going to come back, because as long as ceo's know that they can do the same with less and they get rewarded for squeezi more out of the shareholder, nobody gets rewarded for hiring more people. you don't get rewarded for putting more people back to work. >> the whole discussion about a jobs creation and who is going to create jobs is so silly. all the rewards of our form of capitalism have been for the peoplet the top who can reduce the numberf employees they have. that is all they know how to do. romney is not an exception. the idea is to get lean and mean. that is all they know how to do. really thatk it is we want to destroy capitalism. it is destroying itself. this cannot work. you cannot have an economic system where your and your people can participate as

either workers or consumers. clay don't earn enough or they don't have jobs. that is e of the reasons we had the crash of 2007-2008. there was so much poverty that was behind the mortgage crisis. you cannot run things like this. you cannot have an economy just based on t 1% plus their -- i don't know how it would work. it is not a matter of if we like capitalism or not. fiscal matter of how we survived when it isn't working any more -- it is a matter of how we survive when it isn't working any more. >> you can either have all the wealth concentrated with a small number of people, or you can have democracy, but you cannot have both.

>> part of what we are talking about is that we move from a state of monopoly and industrial capitalism to monopoly finance capitalism. 40 yea ago, the banks only had 9% or 10% of the corporate profits in the whole economy. today they have 43% of the corporate profit. when you have banks that are not primarily interested in lending any more, but rather trading on casino like operations in which they make big money but they don't produce any products, they are making billions of dollars. general motors was making big money in producing products and providing jobs. now they are just a collective. that is what finance capitalism is globally. we have to be honest about that and then say we have to be practical in terms of how we preserve our dignity and integrity. you have to tell people the

painful truth of the kind of system we are living in. unfortunately, it is very rare that they even get a chance to hear that kind of truth about capitalism. people are debating about bain. that is the tipf the icebergs. bain is not some isolated unit time to private equity. this has been happening across the board. in that sense, it does look rather bleak at times, but this is another reason why the black traditions are important. if you have been under slavery for thousands of years, it looks kind of bleak. if you have been jim crow for over a hundred years and the land of liberty, it looks bleak.

here comes the people telling you how to blow the struggle for justice with your head hh in the middle of rkness. >> this is what i want to say. we have been sitting here now for a few hours, talking about poverty and the system and getting out the truth about it. but i am also looking at 1500 people in this room, and i have to ask you, each one of you individually, what are you doing to stay out of poverty? how knowledgeable are you about the money that you are making? do you have the documents in place today to protect your tomorrow so that if something were to happen to you, the little amount of money may have does not go to some lawyer to probate what you have. what steps are you taking to keep yourself out of poverty? the more people that go into

poverty, the harder it is going to be for everybody to get out. have you ever been on an airplane and you hear them say when the oxygen mask falls, put it on your face first before your child? that is because if you cannot take care of yourself, you nnot take care of your children. tavis, you asked me about student loans. he asked everyone about children. we are passing a silent message of debt down to our children. we don't talk about money. i am talking about your fily money. what you do that, where you put it, how you get more out of what you already have. if you don't learn about money, if you don't learn about -- i am just talking about personal finance now. then you are setting yourself up to be a victim to a system that wants you to fail. so i hope all of you leave

night not only thinking about what we do for the entire system and how we change the world, but i hope you go home and have a good sit-down with yourself and say, what am i doing in my life right here and right now to stay out of pover? that you can still do, so you better start doing it now, people. i could be looking at 1500 peop in poverty sooner than later if you don't get powerful over the money that you do have. how you think and feel about it and what you do. i am asking you to turn toward yourself to solve that proem in your own family, because nobody else is going to solve it for you. [applause] >> we would like all of you to take your credit cards out now. ushers are bringing scissors down the aisle.

[laughter] >> i totally agree with everything you said. it is just not sufficient. i don't think we are disagreeing. i want to go back to what my good friend roger said about jobs. you are absolutely right, in the short term, the think we need to do is get as man people to work as possible, but they have to be good jobs. that have to play -- have to pay well and have benefits and mobility. if we do that, we still have not done a damn thing, frankly, because the system is still the same. we are staying in a nice hotel, and i talked yesterday to the person who was cleaning my room. i could tell she was in poverty.

when barr wrote her book -- win barber wrote barbara 10 years ago, our unemployment rate was pretty good. the topic was not jobs. if she found a bunch of different occupations and different people who clearly were in poverty. so merely getting down our unemployment rate to 5%, that is totally insufficient. again, we have to figure out how to change the system. i am assuming we'll have time to talk about what we would do that is very different to change the system. >> i had a question for you and for dr. west. having just finished e tour, what was your sense of what you are seeing, feeling, hearing from americans around how

frustrated are they a round of the issues we are talking about? how focused are they on really creating a movement to change the system? what is the outcome of the tour? >> one was that the resilience among poor brothers and sisters of all colors was profoundly inspiring. we went in knowing they weren't sophisticated, so, inadequate, magnificent, and fall like anybody else, but their resiliency came through strong. mainly in local forms, in very practical forms of expression. in madison, wisconsin, people

wake up in differe ways, different times, and so on. i came away tremendously fired up, not just because of the occupy movement. this was three months before -- about a month and a half before. i also get a sense that poor people know that the system is so deeply --, and it will take a fundamental system change, and how that will come about, nobody really knows. >> how do we mobilize those people to vote? how do we get them motivated to see the other side and again in practice the want right they have, around voting? >> i guess what michael said earlier a, it comes down to choices. a lot of people d't see the

kind of choice they really want to make to help lift them up out of poverty. that is one reason why this conversation is so important, to put poverty front and center in this political season. >> the 1%, of want them to vote and have aolitical party that represents their interests. they are americans. but the fact is, we have two parties -- the 1% gets to parties. the 99% have no parties. the 1% have the two--- have the two parties. the 1% should have their own party, and the 99% should have two or three or four parties that represent the broad spectrum of political thought

within the 99%. >> stop yelling and being rude. >> i want to go back to something that roger said. i don't think anyone answered it or maybe heard what he said. when he said i don't want to go backo the good old days, because the good old days for african-americans, latinos, or native americans, there are no good old days. when so much of the discussion talks about getting at home in the suburbs and the way used to be, and my dad was a factory worker at gm - that is a bad example because the uaw is one of the few unions that integrated back in the 1940's and insisted that blacks and whites did the same jobs.

generally, my question to and to anyone of pure who is african-american is, if we are able to succeed and find that these fixes in the present and future, the system itself, do you worry that that new system, which is going to put pple back to work and create a middle-class again, is that you are going to find yourselves still out there in that group that is not allowed in to the new party, to the new system? what is your fear of that taking place? >> it depends on the time you are talking about. in the short term, probably in my lifetime, i don't think it is going to get a lot better.

in a longer life time, i think it is. the way i tend to approach our work is to look to what can we do today to have a good society for the kids today wn they are grown? i would start with young kids and ask ourselves the question, what do we want this country to look like in 20 or 30 years? i start at birth and then move up. . probably won't be around one of the things that is oimistic -- i am optimistic abouthe 99. things have gotten so bad for so many more people, it is not blacks and latinos crying in the wind. i think other people are beginning to understand. it is not going to turn around quickly. i think tavis was saying people are thinking about going back to

the old labor market. our economy has changed. the longer people are hard work, the more it is changing. we are going to have to come up with a different work force system. >> i think it will be better for the next generation. the young people sitting here tonight. >> we have more mixed race people, and a lot of them are influential. theyre married and to families that have more power and money. they are not as racist. >> the only white age group that president obama one was a 18-29

year-old. he lost every other white age group. the young people are going to fix this. our kids are not bigots. they are not homophobes'. they don't look at this the weather grandparents and great grandparents -- that don't look at it the way the grandparents and great grandparents d. >> i want to ask a question about labor. a want to ask about how the attack on collective bargaining and unions and what some see as a diminishing of unions and labor in this country does for poverty in the long term, beyond today. since i happen to be an african- american -- >> it happen to be that god made

you a black man. >> and i am glad he did. [laughter] shout hallelujah. [laughter] >> it is wonderful thing. did you sing that song in church ♪ i am glad, glad, glad, that me. made nik i am glad roger made that point about optimism and hope. optimism suggested that there is a particular set of facts, circumstances, or conditions, something you can see, feel, and touch, they give you reason to beeve that things are going to get bett. so you say i am optimistic.

that has never been the case for negro in america. hope, on the other hand, sestet craig is the substance of things hoped for -- said that faith is the substance of things hoped for. i cannot look at the condition and the state of black people ellay catching the most h in this economy. i cannot find any reason to be optimistic. what i can find reason to be is hopeful. when hopgot to us, it was already stillborn, and yet we are the most hopeful people in this country.

optimism and hope are two very different things. i don't have reason to be optimistic, but i am hopeful. since you ask, i am going to be frank. it troubles me -- it almost the presses me at timeshen some folks don't understand the critique of obama from those of us who happen to be free, black men o want a more progressive view of this country. the reason i am on this is because i think in many ways, this is the last, best chance that my people have, and if the numbers continue to petworth and we keep thinking in falling hole, there isis whol a chance we may never come out of this. and i love black folks too much to sit and watch this happen to them. [applause]

>> the history plays an important role. under slaver, it was a crime for black people to love you love your child, but you either go crazy or get some spiritual fortitude. it was also a crime to hope. we could not worship god without what supervision so you would steal away to the creek. that was a crime. in the land of religious liberty, no matter how dark it is, even in the present, it is hard to conceive of what my great great grandmother and great great grandfather had to wrestle with in the abyss of american slavery. i cannot conceive of it even being worse, as bad as it is, but with this proviso. i have learned a lot from young

people. all will say this about young falcon a critical way. -- about your own fault in a critical way. i don't know of a wave of young people who are commensurate to the grandmothers and grandfathers and those ancestors that shaped me in terms of who i am. i just don't. the reason is because young people have been so penetrated with that capitalist culture of instant gratification, overnight success. in that sense, there is a shift from the john coltrane and sarah vaughn and curtis mayeld and aretha franklin into the bubble gum music that is dominant. that is a shift.

when we talk about the young people who are going to make this fundamental social change, you are going to get bought out. you are going to sellout quick. you will not be a long-distance runner. you'll be so obsessed with instant success and superficial status that you will make your grandmother week from the grave. she will want you to have earned great as, not quick success. she doesn't care about what your position is or how big your crib is. this.e still agreeing onesk >> i worry that whatever fixes

we come up wit, that is part of it will not get fixed, because as you said, there is nothing to prove or justify any optimism that black america is not going to be left behind again. >> there is symbolism, and that is what obama represents. as yet, there has not been a substance that can fuel that hope. a lot of symbolism, and i celebrate symbols. barbara, i wanted to ask you about labor. there are many of us who are concerned about the attack on labour, on collective bargaining. there are those who think the labor movement is dead. your assessment of what ever the condition of lour is and how it parallels where this poverty conversation in america is or is

not going to go. >> it was the unions that brought my family up. the butte miners union. they were not paid well. they had union and they began to do better. finally getting into home ownership and things like that. that is the only thing i know about the upward mobility. it is true. i don't even pay any attention to my personal finances. that is another area. [laughter] but the one thing i did grow up with was the idea that people could get ahead by sticking together. in fact, and my family was very prejudiced in a way, i guess.

they said there are two things you could never do in your life. one is vote republican, and the other is cross a union picket line. you can do either of those things are you go straight to hell. michael mentioned there is a class war. one of the first targets was unions, because they did represent so-called little people or working people and everything. and the have been terribly weak and -- they have been terribly weakened. maybe they have been institutionally weakened, but we still have to take the lesson from them that peopletanding together in solidarity can take on that 1%. can make changes. [applause]

>> i am watching the clock and we have about 15 minutes left of the conversation. let me start by saying there have been all kinds of suggestions of what needs to be done right now. we have had some short-term suggestions, short-term solutions, that is. we have had some long term solutions. we have in title this conversation "reawaken in america from poverty to prosperity." since you put this question now about if we don'replace, have certainly fix a broken system. your thoughts about how we do that or what? >> the media is jobs in the public sector, jobs in the private sector, supporting

business, especially small and micro businesses. then we have to start working on our systems that create poverty and keep people in poverty like our educational system, the criminal justice system. but the bigger idea is trying to figure out how to spread the wealth of this country throughout all of its people. one of the ways i think he can do that is something like a well account where things that we all own, such as oil, and i will use alaska as an example. they get money it serves people that has lived there for a year. when sarah palin was governor, it was more than $3,000 a person the idea there is that they all

-- they all on the oil, so they all get it. there are natural resources like that, but there are other things like patents. if you want to invent something and put on the market, that is fine, but if you want the government to protect your for 50 years passed your death, then you have to pay for that. the way i would have it paid 4 is essentially give an ownership interest in every patent to people in this country, and i would distribute the money to everybody, no means test, no nothing. if we did that,o that everyby would get another $10,000 or $50,000 a year aumatically, we could get rid of food stamps and other government programs that are a safety net, because we would get rid of the need for part of the safety net. i think that would be a fundamental change. i also think it is possible, and

i think we could still call it capitalism and democracy. but we would be fundamentally changing the way the resources get distributed to everybody. >> i like the way you think. [applause] >> if you were going to be imagined arica, you would read imagine it in what way? >> while we are working on the longer-term, and as we think about poverty and all the things that affect and are part of poverty, hunger is the one issue that wcan solve in this country. there is enough food produced in america not only to feed every person in this country, but most of the developed world. what would do is find a way to work on the food system so at

we can get what farmers grow to the plates of people that need food. it is criminal that we live in this country and that there are 17 million kids that don't eat and cannot learn and cannot be educated. its actually giving dollars back to people to try to get on their feet. if you don't have to worry about groceries, you can get back on your feet. a perfect world to me, and this is a big stretch because these programs are under fire on either side of the aisle, a big stretch -- would be to seek children and families have enough food to eat in the united states of america. [applause] >> suze orman. >> there are so many things, but i concentrate on personal finance. my job is rebuilding america,

one wallet at a time [applause] . i really believe in myeart that if you all want to stay out of poverty, you have to really get involved with the money that you have today. you have got to learn how to make more out of less. you have to really turn toward your money than away from. so many of you will get jobs, you have jobs, and you take this hard-earned money and you turn it over to wall street. you turn it over to the banks. you turn it over to the people that are helping keep you in this situation of not getting ahead. so you need to know what to do with money, who to give it to, how to invest it in your retirement plan, and how to be able ttake care of yourself in

the future. my biggest fear is that they are just going to keep pushing all of this down the road. you areot going to have medicare, social security the way you think is goin to be. you are not going to have pensions from the companies you are working with. they will be taking the 401k they have and you will have to work until you are 75 or 80, just to be able to possibly retire. i am asking you, and the america i see is one where people really deal with their own money. they are powerful over their own money. then when you are powerful over yourself, you can help others around you so that you can pick everybody uppe. the only other thing i would love to see happen is because until the housing market comes back, it is going to be very

difficult for america to come back. the housing market is not going to come back until the job market comes back. everything is contingent on one another. however, i do not understand why all the people who hold the mortgages, what we just don't reduced every single mortgage out there on every single home in ameca to the fair market value of that home today, so the people that have homes and want to stay in their homes, they cannot help but they are under water. it is no fault of your own. why can they not take a $750,000 home in tampa and make it a $100,000 mortgage because that is what it can be sold for today. i don't understand why they are willing to not do that. that is my vision. >> let me say right quick, suze

was gracious enough tonight not to raise this issue because she did not want to come across as proselytizing, and i appreciate that. the announcement she made today in washington at the national press club is called the approved card. just go online, you can find it unr her name. it is being talked about everywhere. the story broke today. go online and read more about the proof card and what -- the approved card. >> and don't believe the naysayers and what they s i am doing, because that is not what i am doing. >> i have five minutes left and c-span is going to turn the cameras off. >> i want to read imagine america in a way that allows every single person in it to see

their own value, to see their dignity, and understand that there are ways that we can create economicpportunities to move people up and out of poverty. in particular, using the tools that we already have. real estate development, idea create communities that meet the needs of everybody. opportunities to not degrade our a -- environment. we have those tools out there. we could be growing food in our cities in using technology in a way that helps redefine what are regional food system actually looks like. we can do these things right here and right now. i am also very interested in the idea that we know our climate is changing. doesn't make any difference whether man did it or not. people know there are problems

out there. we have to address the fact that we do have a class of people that are under ecated and have been lef behind, and we have to create jobs for those people. we absolutely can do it. the best social service dollar spent is actuly a job. >> we have been talking about eliminating poverty. my final thought is, a lot of us in this room at one point have been poorwar in the future are going to be poor. sari, that is just how is. my final thought is, the poor and proud -- be poor and proud. we represent something.

we have prided ourselves that has nothing to do with our network or credit score. >> make porty a priority in the national house and in the world house, so that everyone's humanity is accepted, abilities are accepted in such a way you can see theirself development d self realization, their voices are heard at the highest level. righteous indignation, anger channeled through love and justice. there will never be changed if you don't get mad with love and courage and be willing to live and die for something bigger than yourself. >> thank you, cornel west.

final word, michael moore. >> tax the rich and end the war. take the money out of politics. corporations are not people. let me say this to the 1% who might be watching. how many gated communities can you build? you have made 150 million americans poor or nearly four. i am a nonviolent passive this person. you have the communities across this country who are full of love and wanting to work together to make this a better country. how much more are you going to make them suffer, because some day they are not going to take it anymore. q. are going to wish you had dealt with that now could find the courage to deal with it now

with peace and nonviolence. that is what we prefer. that is what we all prefer. [applause] >> let me ask you, in the 30 seconds i have left, i want to thank george washington university for having us. number two, let me ask you to thank c-span f carrying this conversation live around the world. thank you, c-span. no.and stand on your feet and tk this entire panel for being here tonight. c-span, thank you very much. [applause] [captioning rformed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012]

[indistinct chatter] >> is tim scott leads a town hall meeting for undecided voters. then weekly addresses with president obama. then the communicators with the technology writer nick bilton. next, tim scott posts a presidential town hall meeting. it is one in a series of

meetings here is hosting for undecided voters on a range of issues leading up to the republican primary next saturday. joining him is the virginia governor bob mcdonnell. he offers his view on the presidential field and his role in the campaign. this is about an hour. >> i would like to introduce someone i have gotten to know over the last year. i have marked with 100 members of congress. -- worked with 100 members of congress. some are better than others. you should be proud. there must have been divine

intervention. something good happen in the first congressional district of south carolina. get to knowchance to ge the congressman. he understands the country and what it needs. there is a lot of anxiety right now. a lot of division. if there is anyone i know that has the capability to bring people together and to get them to be optimistic again and believe that the children will inherit a better country, it is because of tim scott. please welcome him. [applause] >> thank you. murder obese, south carolina. what a great evening.

myrtle beach, south carolina. what a great evening. how many of you realize this is probably the most important election in all of our lifetime? [applause] we need a president and that may need to read the notes but he will not need a teleprompter. we have had all these meetings. i would love for my constituents to hear from a governor who understands how to cut spending. a new concept in washington. it is the imaginary number that never exists. challenging math, and understood

in washington, d.c. we have a governor who took a $6.5 billion shortfall and turned it into a billion dollar surplus. many fans in the house? you have a governor who made decisions on investing. we have with casper the next speaker you here. he is the governor of virginia and may be balancing act necessary to bring back the white house because he may be the next vice-president. you never know. [applause] governor bob mcdonnell. [applause] >> thank you and did evening. it is great to be back.

i was telling him when i was a young kid, my parents would bring the family down here every year. how many of you remember? we were there for about a decade. we have so many fond memories of the sitting in the traffic. that is why 73 is a good idea. i remember how long it took to get here. thank you for allowing me to be here. you have so many candidates here already to give them a firsthand look at the candidates. i cannot tell you how much i admire what he did. he came and campaigned in 2009 in virginia. he is a great, bright conservative voice. he sticks to his guns.

and why he is already taking the stand to do things we need to do like cutting the corporate income-tax rate so we can have more money reinvested then be able to expand business around the world. thank you for your leadership. you have done a great job. always great to be with one of the great writers. he has done a great job with some of those focus groups and has been helpful to me in giving me advice. a representative, thank you for your the leadership. i have a party run into five for virginians. thank you for coming. i want to deputize all of you. i come from the state where the

first two governors were patrick henry. i say it is a great job. i know you are freedom loving people. we will make you honorary virginians. all of you by those gas lamps, i suggest to be a little careful. it uses natural gas which is a terrible fossil fuel. we may have the epa come down here and put us out of business. [laughter] i've brought a couple of people down here with me. my campaign manager when i ran for governor who is now the executive director of the american governors association, that is phil cox. thank you for coming. i am from the government and i am here to help. ronald reagan said that and i thought it would be a good opening line.

i know what he meant. it is only helpful when it knows the will of the people and respects the constitution of the united states of america. we take that seriously in virginia. we were the first state to file against obama-care a year ago. i know your attention is on the critically important goal of winning back the united states senate. and more importantly, elected a new commander in chief. i think it is our top priority for our country. i think there are three things that will determine the outcome that are vitally important. one, we need to get the greatest country in the world

back to work. this chronic unemployment rate that has been over 9% for 32 months is just unacceptable and unsustainable. it quashes the ability of the american people to pursue the american dream. this president's policies on jobs are horrible -- new spending, new taxes, new regulation. failing to recognize is the brilliance of the entrepreneur that really gives access to the american dream. we realize that are in a virginia. we made jobs are top priority. our campaign bumper sticker was bob for jobs. we have the lowest unemployment rate in the se, 6.2%. we are the most business friendly state in america. we get it. if you keep taxes and litigation low, and say the risk takers and people there want to have health is good, then we will

have people that will invest in your state. secondly, we have more debt and more deficits with this president than have been racked up than any other three-year period with this president's leadership. that is absolutely the wrong thing to do. we are mortgaging the future of our kids. we are $15 trillion in debt. there is no way to spend our way out of this problem. we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. we need to say what is right for our country and spend accordingly. [applause] so we will realize that. we have a $6 billion budget deficit. when i became governor, my former governor was tim kaine, who was head of the democratic

national committee at the same time, left me with a $6 billion deficit and a tax increase to try to spend it. we said no. we cut spending, and balance the budget. we have $1 billion in surpluses. that is what can be done with leadership like tim's in congress. the third thing is the most important and that is leadership. leadership really does matter. who sets the rules for our country really does matter. that is why these elections are so important. the outcome really does matter. this president has blamed all the problems, whether unemployment our jobs, it is the fault of the tea party or the house republicans. i say, mr. president, you are the commander in chief, take responsibility. set priorities, cut spending and get results. that is what you should be doing. we need a leader that wants to put in place results oriented conservatism. that is to stick to your guns

but quit making excuses. get things done. what americans want is people that will get the basic services, the statutes and convert -- plus a togiola requirements -- constitutional requirements done well and then stay out of their way so people can be free to use their god- given talents to pursue the american. that is what we need to do. i look forward to your questions and participating in this town hall. when all this hot air from is politicians, we will warm this place up pretty quickly. thank you very much. >> we have just been joined by the chairman of the south carolina gop. [applause] the way the format works is

pretty simple. you ask the questions. the first question comes from michael and tracie griffin. thank you for being here. mr. vice-president -- [laughter] i would like to get used to the new titles. recently, the president has talked about downsizing the government. what are your thoughts on whether or not he is sincere, and how would you encourage those of us on the right to join him in an attempt to reduce the size of government? >> thank you for that question, because talk is cheap. actions and results matter. what we have seen over the last

three years, congressman, despite your best efforts and your colleagues, particular your freshman i made a house, we have three from virginia -- i hope they are helping you -- is just the opposite. we have seen some of the greatest expansion of government power in history. look at what he tried to do it in south carolina with the nlrb. could not get things done like card check. so he tried to do administratively with three unelected people in the nlrb and try to stop blowing from coming to the west coast to south carolina. the obama-care legislation creates i do not know how many dozens and dozens of new agencies and programs. so what we have seeing is more spending, more government solutions. and so here we are 10 months away from an election, i think

we will see him go to the middle to create common sense policies, because everybody knows we have to do it. we are broke. $15 trillion in debt. i have to say over the last decade, republicans have contributed to some of that debt in the early part of this decade. we have not want to turn the clock back. if we go from where we were when obama took office and to almost $5 trillion of additional debt in three years is unbelievable. it is more taxation, more regulation, more unionization. these of the things the president has promoted. it is the opposite of what you need to do to encourage the entrepreneur to take risks and grow, borrow capital and create jobs. while i've heard he wants to consolidate the small business administration, department of commerce and elevated to cabinet level position and create efficiencies, and if he is serious about it he says it

will save $3 billion over 10 years. then fine, i applaud him. but that is a drop in a the bucket compared to what needs to be done. as long as he does not change his view that we cannot cut entitlements, it will not work. everybody knows you cannot balance this horrific $1.50 trillion a year deficit if you are not serious about entitlement reform and government reform across the spectrum. and so i hope he is serious. i hope that when he is right, that we find that common ground and cut government, but there is so much more to do. i do not think on the big stuff the president has a real interest in reducing government. most of the solutions are just the opposite -- a big government, as opposed to more freedom. >> thank you, governor. one of the great challenges we have had over the last year is

that we like 80% of what he says, but we 89% of what he does. next question comes from victoria williams. victoria? thank you for being here. victorious says, virginia has done a fantastic job as relates to the unemployment rate -- 6%. our state is 10%. our nation is at 8.5%. how can we model our economic attitude and our behavior is after the great state of virginia? >> i love the softball questions. thank you so much. keep throwing them up here. honestly, i do not think it is that hard. we know what works.

we have been the greatest country on earth since our foundation 235 years ago. we understand these basic principles of freedom and federalism and limited government and understanding that free people, where we promise opportunity. that is what we guarantee -- opportunity. we do not guarantee outcome. a fundamental difference between us and other socialist- style country. we promise opportunity to pursue the american dream. so i think that is what we need to do. the best way we can do that is some of the kinds of things that you do. we have the second highest corporate income tax in all of the world. no wonder capital is fleeing america for europe and asia. you've had one of the great ideas with your rising tide legislation to cut that 35% federal income tax so we do not force american businesses to go to singapore or china or taiwan

or some other country, where those rates are lower. the president of coke said a couple of months ago says it is easier to do business in china then to do business in america with this president. shocking. i was in china on a trade mission six months ago, and they want to do business with america. they are cutting bureaucracy and trying to find ways to model themselves after what we do in america. they are learning a lot from us. so we should not be having the kinds of policies. so what we have done is we have tried to cut taxes in those areas that impair the ability of businesses to create and grow access to capital. we tried to create some targeted incentives by looking at what is virginia good at. we are guided advanced manufacturing and cyber security and modeling and simulation and wine and tourism and film. we just had that steven spielberg do his lincoln movie in virginia. imagined a liberal democrat during a movie about a conservative republican president. we thought it was great. we are promoting new incentives focused on those industries. you know what is most important right now? this president is spending most

of this time attacking people that are successful. the president is a nice guy. he is a good family man. his wife was just in virginia with my wife doing things for veterans. that was common ground. but his policies are just flat wrong. he is attacking people that are successful. creating this class warfare argument that if you have been successful in taking risks and been blessed in return, that somehow you are stomping on other people's rights. we should condemn the. that is absolutely wrong. that is not the american formula for success. tim, what i say is, look, if you want to come to virginia and relocate your business, we love you. come on. we have people from california, people like hilton and northrop grumman and other major companies that have relocated because they do not get it when it comes to taxes and regulation and we do. we know this is a competitive marketplace, not only for ideas but also for jobs. the more you can make your

state business and family friendly and bring in those job creators, the better off you are going to be. these are pretty elementary concepts. tim gets it. we put them in place in virginia. your governor is trying to do that. chris christie and rick scott are doing that in their states. that is why you see that some of the most pro-business states in america are headed by republican governors. virginia has been ranked number one this year, but those other republican governors are doing the same things. >> thank you, governor. another amazing challenge comes from jason watson. are you here? thank you. he is a commercial fisherman. a lot of time, he deals with the regulatory environment that is getting worse and worse on commerce. specifically, catch limits of

that impacts offshore fishing, but more important is the regulatory environment that has stifled growth throughout this nation is doing it more because in the last 12 months we added 70,000 pages of the compliance cost of $95 billion just to comply. could you talk about that? >> yes. i mentioned i think the great cancer that undermines entrepreneurship is regulation. in some cases, it is unionization. because he cannot do certain things done on various environmental front like cap and trade and certain union areas like card check, he tried to use the administrative process act with bureaucrats, but you try to get them to pass

of volumes of the regulation that enact some of these policies. i think some of these are beyond the scope of what congress intended and permitted our people to do. so regulations, as long as they have of valid consumer protection or public safety impact and do it in the least intrusive way, upon the citizens, then it makes sense. but some of the regulations we have seen over these last couple years, particularly with the gobs of them being promulgated for obama-care are a hidden tax. they add to the cost of doing business. and who pays for it? you do, because it is passed on as part of the cost of doing business from the businessman. it is the same thing in the

fishing area. i think we do need to balance the sensible goal of protecting our environment and protecting our natural resources with the needs of commerce. and for a long time in most states in the nation we realize there has to be some limits on catches of all kinds of things. we have some of those limits in virginia. if they become excessive to achieve a political objective on behalf of people that are far left to it comes to environmental protection, then you stifle entrepreneurship. that's should be our goal. >> our next question comes from tom middleton. here's a question about voter

fraud and the federal intrusion. in south carolina, our immigration law, our voter id, are some areas where we see the federal government coming into our state or suing us were trying to steal our jobs. his question is, how do we stop the voter fraud and how do we stop the intrusion that the federal government seems to be doing rapidly throughout this nation? >> one of the great hallmarks of the american republic is that for the most part, people have confidence in the outcome of elections. you see these horrible images and other countries that were these totalitarian regimes get 99% of the vote and everybody knows what is going on there. and having that principle of one man, one vote, be counted is so important to our founders. it was one of the things our revolution was about -- those colonists were denied representation. they decided they would make

their stand and fight for it. so making sure that everybody cast one vote and not more than one vote is also important. we have done some things like some basic voter identification requirements at the polls, just to prove who you are without doing anything to suppress voter turnout. it is a common-sense way to do it. i think a lot of states are doing that. with regard to the overbearing federal government, that would take the rest of this town hall and beyond. you know, when the 10th amendment was adopted, it meant something. it meant that article i section 8 of the constitution was the box the federal government was suppose to be in. that articulated those limited powers of what washington was supposed to do. when the federal government gets outside of that box and tries to be all things to all

people or to do what ever the courts allow them to do, it really tramples on what the 10th amendment was all about which says what ever they cannot do it is left to you, the people and the states respectively. i think an important part of what we are trying to do at the republican governors' association is to help to re- balance those powers between state and federal government. what madison and mason and jefferson and others wrote a lot about. limiting the federal government is a lot of what those first 10 amendments were about. it is to guarantee those individual liberties to the citizens and to the states respectively. i think we need to have a louder voice. we will be doing a lot of that at the republican governors

association, especially when we see the results that states are getting individually with republican governors compared to what we are seeing coming out of this administration. individual governors are closer to the people. that is what jefferson really believe, the government closest to the people really does work. it is more responsive, more attentive. just like these meetings we are having here. tim believes that. these limitations that go into the constitution really do mean something and we should restore them. [applause] >> tom, thank you for the question on voter fraud. 91 people that died before 2008 were able to rise from the grave and vote for barack obama in 2008. let's turn our attention to the comments about who makes a good president. you suggested that being a

governor is a very good road to the white house. [laughter] >> of course. >> that's the easy part. governor perry, governor romney and governor huntsman. >> governors make a good president. the three things we talked about and frank, you talked about a lot of this is your focus groups, is when people say what we need to do to restore the great country of is it the american engine of opportunity back to work with more jobs. get our fiscal house in order. families and businesses are doing it.

the federal government should do it, too. it is what states have to do. we have to balance our budget. they print money. tim has been a good voice for not doing that. >> i'm a republican. >> we have self and forced debt ceilings. they do not. we need voices like tim scott up there and being able to say how we get that in order. and then leadership. those of the three key issues i see coming up this year. i said i am somewhat partial to governors, because when i see the failures in leadership and a failure in direction this administration, the skillset that i think is best suited to fix that is what governors really have to do every day. and we have to balance budgets every year. you cannot spend more than you have. you have to account for. which means you have to

increase taxes or cut spending. in virginia, we cut spending. that is our road to getting that balance. secondly, when your unemployment rate is 9%, you cannot be blaming congress or the man behind a tree, you to take direct responsibility for how competitive are you making your state. what are your regulations? are using their business and jobs are a good thing? are you engaging in class warfare? we do not do that. and so, because governors are held directly responsible for the unemployment rate, they will have the best ideas on how to get that under control on business development, on energy policy. so i am a little partial to governors. i could say that you have three governors in the race. most of them have good records on jobs and business when there were governors of their state. governor romney in the private sector with what he has been able to accomplish, running the

olympics. i think all of them have a good view when it comes to spending. they understand you cannot spend more than you bring in. they had to govern that way by their statutes or their constitution. and so that is exactly the kind of leadership that you need. this administration thinks that you are their piggy bank. if they cannot get an of spending out of congress, there will run up the debt. and that is exactly the wrong approach. we are mortgaging the future. i think it is flat immoral that this of debt is running up, because some of us with gray hair, you are passing on to your kids and your grandkids. that is the wrong thing to do for america. moody's downgraded the federal government. s&p just downgraded about 8 european countries, starting with france and portugal. this is what is happening in the west now is that we have lost as a basic understanding of fiscal responsibility that most american families and small businessmen get. you have to live within your means and set parties and balance your budget. that is why i said that the

governors will do well. we have a great canada its -- candidates across the board. you'll see the monday night. everyone of them would be better than what we have and the white house now. [applause] >> greg carter moon? sent us a question over facebook. do you support the webb-warner bill regarding offshore drilling near the coast of virginia, and what cautions which you take to protect the environment? >> absolutely. we have tried to position ourselves in virginia as the energy capital of the east coast. no offense to south carolina. we've got great coal and natural gas reserves. we've got major nuclear capacity in lynchburg, virginia. you know what the most

productive nuclear reactor in the united states is? it is called the united states navy aircraft carrier. that is where the nuclear power is the best. we have more of them and norfolk, virginia, then any place on the east coast. as an aside, i am the son of an army officer. i served 21. my daughter spent a year and a rock as an army platoon leader. we need to do everything that we can to make sure our veterans are protected and well served. [applause] and so, if we are going to have american energy independence, a lot of people talk about it. again, you have to deliver. and this administration has been hostile to coal. they have tried to prevent hydra fracking. they have failed to provide a suitable place for disposal of spent rods. they have pulled the rug out from under us in virginia in offshore drilling.

you know what? that is 97% of the electricity generation capacity in america and this administration is attacking it. i have never seen a windmill on top of a car be able to work. i'm for offshore wind, but not on top of my car. i think we have to realize it -- back to the question about the webb-warner bill -- i do want us to be able to drill off the atlantic coast. we need to use all of our resources in america as we do not have to depend on dictators around the world for oil. [applause] i think the people say we need in america first, domestic, red white and blue energy policy that uses everything. why should we hamstring our own country and force us to go and buy from other countries? offshore drilling, i think we did learn a lot of the deep water horizon incident. it was prudent to slow down and

find out what new technology and new regulations were needed to put in place. but to say after drilling 4000 wells on the gulf of mexico for 40 years, that we cannot do it safely off the atlantic coast i would say is flat wrong. that shows no confidence in the great american minds and technology and no confidence in the ability of government to get the regulations right. that is not america. we did not do that after the space shuttle disaster. that's absolutely wrong. i have more confidence in americans than the president. so i think we ought to drill off the atlantic coast. the people leading the charge are senator mark warner and jim webb, two democratic senators from virginia, who are trying to get some common-sense

regulations in place for offshore drilling. we can do it. we need to do it. it will be a tremendous job. there would be 18,000 jobs in virginia. 7000 jobs in south carolina. tens of millions of dollars in tax revenues. that is how we grow. new industries and reduce our reliance on foreign countries. >> thank you, governor. we will have dr. frank luntz take over and get the audience involved. we will come back with a 10 minute wrap with the governor. >> i will ask you a question and i want you to respond. we have c-span cameras on. if you can move away from those things. it is ok. i want a show of hands. how many of you are better off than your parents were when they were your age? raise your hands if you are better off than your parents when they were your age. most hands go up. what ever happened to the four

of you, please tell me who your broker is not. now, tell me the truth. how many of you to believe that your children, not that you want them to be, how many of you believe the way things are going that your children will be better off than you when they get to your age? raise your hand. look around you. look at how few hands are up now. can someone explain to me why you're so pessimistic about your kids? >> the leadership we have today is not taking us where we need to go. >> why are you so pessimistic about the future for the next generation? >> the economy is down. real-estate values are down. there is no prospect for the future. >> why are you so pessimistic about the future for your kids? >> of lack of common sense in washington. >> why are you so pessimistic? >> a huge debt. governor, congressman, give them hope.

make them feel more confident about the future. what would you tell them needs to happen so that they will have faith that their children will have a better quality of life than them? >> i think you start with the premise, congressman, i know you believe it because that is why you ran for office. this is the greatest experiment in human freedom the world has ever known, the united states of america. [applause] what jefferson penned in 1776, and what we ratified in 1791, has stood the test of time. those ideas have spread ideas about freedom and liberty across the world. since the collapse of the iron curtain and the berlin wall, we've seen people not only in europe but also and other nations look to america for these ideas on human freedom and ideas on how to put together a

constitution. so i think our system of government and the foundations of its republic, they are greater than any one president, one governor or congressman or anything else. because it has worked. we have had some other dark periods in our history. the mid 1800's. through all of those challenges, the basic structure of america has remained unchanged. the basic secret of success, while we may have lost it for a period of time, while we have administrations that may not understand it like this administration does not get it, i think the people come around and make the right corrective action. just like the market has a correction, i think the electorate will have a correction in november. will get conservative leadership restored. because the small businessman are always going to be the linchpin -- 70% of all the businesses in america are created by that small business

guy. bill gates. or the steve jobs. the people that have a dream, dropped out of college. nobody thought it would happen. now they have created some of the greatest companies in america. that is america. that will not change even after enduring four years of this administration. that stays strong and we will recover and be better and stronger. [applause] >> sometimes the greatest opportunities are found in the greatest obstacles. there is no question that since 2008 we have seen one of the greatest opportunities of rise in the tea party. when you realize that you're taxed enough already, you realize that a less intrusive government is in your best interest and you realize that no matter where you start, your future will be dictated by yourself. that the greatest minority in the nation today is the

individual. and unleashing the individual sets america right. i will tell you from personal experience, the starting a business. understanding that having an equity position in this great nation made my life different. i could think my way out of poverty. if we realize that the hardest lessons we have to learn today are the ones ahead of us, that the federal guthrie cannot save us and we do not want it to save us. we want to be free, free to win, but also free to lose. that is why the future is very bright. our best days are ahead of us. there is no question that the greatest stand america will have to make is in our future. we will -- we have overcome two world wars, the great depression, recessions, and we will overcome barack obama, without question. [applause] >> i always feel like george costanza, get out on a high note. where are my moms?

on monday, at 10:30 a.m., if you go to cafe mom, there will be a town home specifically for you moms. as a mom, and what are you most concerned for your kids? >> just their future and their opportunities because our country has been taken in the wrong direction right now. >> what are you most concerned about for your kids? >> i have one son who is unemployed. and i have a 23-year-old who is still living at home. he has a job, but cannot afford to live on his own because of the economy. >> are you a mom? >> right now, i am mostly a grandmother. two young granddaughters. my concern is that there will be opportunities for them when they are at that age. my daughter and her husband have provided well for their

college in the future, but will be opportunities to be there for them when they are ready for them? >> i'm a mom. [laughter] i have three children, five grandchildren, all in the carolinas. what i want for them is to be educated to make the right decisions and be able to have the choices to make the decisions from. it's very important that they make right choices, including a career choice and job opportunity. >> governor, congressman? what can government do and what should government not do to ensure that they get -- there are two words that i heard consistently -- choices and

opportunities. what should government do and not do when it comes to providing opportunities and choices? >> i will tell you that as a kid growing up in abject poverty, 30% unemployment was the average unemployment in my community. and the government was consistently there to help us. 30% unemployment, and the government is there to help us. when the federal government shows up, it is not merely to help you. it is to create dependence. when the 47% of americans -- [applause] when you have 47% of americans not paying taxes, we do not want to start a cultural war. we want everybody to understand the real opportunity in this nation is having equity in america. that means that you have to pay into the system. if we were to lower the tax rate, broaden the base, and make everyone responsible for building this great country, i believe the country would grow faster, better, and broader

because every american would find it their responsibility, not the government's responsibility, to make things happen. communities would start depending on their neighbors and not the government. when it came time to take care of your family, it would not be the responsibility of the government to make us more secure. it would be the responsibility of your brothers, your sisters, and your family and your churches and your synagogue. what the government can do for us is take a step back and let us do what we do best. that is the great opportunity. >> i do not think there is a thing i can add to that. [applause] >> thank you, governor, for joining us. i will wrap this up in the next few minutes. at 7:00, there will be a party that starts behind you. you have real warmers with that

virginia natural gas. please join the fantastic shakers at 7:00 right behind us. america, we find ourselves of the crossroads one more time. this is the most important election in our lifetime. it is an amazing opportunity for us to gather the strength to preserve the great republic by moving as back towards capitalism and a further and further away from socialism. we've got to do it. and this is the year to get done. we are going to give the governor three minutes to close, and as he starts his close, i want him to answer one question as it relates to i-73. i-73, which connects six states together and gives us an opportunity to see an economic boon that would go from the coast of south carolina into

the great mountains of virginia. how do we get it done? you took a bipartisan approach to infrastructure funding, and you made it happen in virginia. what advice would you give to the rest of the country? and thank you for being here. >> the only problem is that have brought more people to myrtle beach and west virginia beach. that would not be good for me. other than that, i am all for. i mentioned at those times of getting off of 95. at 10 years old, it was dad, are we there yet. it seemed like we never got there because the small roads were the toughest part. what we did in virginia last year, we are not raising taxes. we will use surplus revenues and some general fund revenues because it is a priority in our budget. but we're also going to say, we have a very limited debt ceiling.

let's invest, dislike we do with our mortgages in our house, let's invest a little bit of money in bonds because we have the lowest interest rates. we are aaa bond rated state. we are getting the best deals ever for the taxpayer. we had $2 billion in projects last year. we created a transportation infrastructure banks. then have the private sector build some of those roads. and paid for with tolls. we would have a chunk of that 73 going to the southwestern part of virginia. i know that now you have an agreement with north carolina on a route, i think that south carolina, north carolina, west virginia, virginia route, connecting the midwest with myrtle beach would bring a few

more sunbathers from the midwest down here and be a very good thing for them. let me close by saying how much i've appreciated being here and talking to so many of you from the republican party, from the tea party. you all are the heart and soul of our effort. i have been in office 21 years. i have one of nine elections. does not matter how good we think we are, how many great ideas we have, if we do not have an army of people that believe in your cause and are willing to do the hard work of freedom, knocking on doors in making the phone calls and coming to the rallies, hanging up the literature on the doors, putting up the signs, you cannot win. this is the key to winning. in 2008, the president did a darn good job. we have to do a real good job in 2012 with having the energy and the enthusiasm on our side. i will close by saying this the

greatest country on earth. but the highest gdp, the most productive and brightest people. i think the most moral people because we still believe in the tenets of human -- basic freedom and traditional values and religious faith. we have more people that are advancing human condition in medicine and technology and science than any other country. but we have places like china and india that are not sitting around waiting for america. they are working and innovating and watching what we have done over 200 years and trying to copy it. i'd say this, i remember the way i was brought up and it was a little different than your story. i had a mother that grew up on a farm and dad that was an army officer, fought in the war. they taught me a couple of simple things. my mother always taught me to follow the golden rule.

my dad taught me, you had better work hard and get things done and do not make excuses, or i will smack you. i learned a lot from dad and mom, a wonderful balance. that is what tim was talking about. this is about opportunity, not government guarantees. the more that we can affect the culture by spreading that message that this is the kind of formula that has always made us a great people, whether it is a couple million that we started with or the 300-plus million today, the more we adopt those principles of human freedom and individual accountability, the better off we are going to be as a nation. so i am looking forward to working with you to support a conservative candidate for president. the sooner we get new leadership that has the vision of limited government and individual responsibility and

supporting traditional values and letting your keep as much of your hard-earned money as you can, the sooner we will return to the founders' vision for america, and the sooner we return to american greatness. thanks. [applause] >> governor bob mcdonnell. let's give him a great hand. [applause] also, let's thank dr. frank luntz for joining us this evening as well. god bless you and god bless america. >> hear, hear. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012]

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[indistinct conversations] >> would you convert your fleet to natural gas? >> i am doing it right now. we have 15,000 vehicles.

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>> i got a great team with me right now. they do great work. [unintelligible] >> we want people to feel appreciated.

[unintelligible] >> thank you. >> thank you so much. >> my brother campaign for you last time around. [unintelligible] >> thank you.

>> is not hard living in virginia. >> is greg. >> you will love virginia beach. we have been there 21 years. it is a great place. not quite as warm as another voice, but it is all right. -- as another place, but it is all right. very good. [unintelligible] >> at this point, i do not banks of. -- i do not think so. the judge ruled against it. [unintelligible] have not endorsed anyone yet.

[unintelligible] it takes a lot of work. it is hard to change the rules after the fact. there is not an appetite in the legislature to do it. unfortunately we only have four candidates now, i was hoping they have all six of them on the ballot. i am afraid it is over. it is what it is. in other roles, -- you know the rules. very nice to see you.

first generation? [unintelligible] >> children and grandchildren here. how many grandchildren? four. you do not know about one of them?

[laughter] take care. very nice to see you. are you going to play? >> no, not tonight. [unintelligible] you're on the other side of the potomac. that is great. [unintelligible] thank you so much.

ok, he is back. >> i am back again. in a are you driving a bmw? >> not yet. [unintelligible] >> thanks. [unintelligible] >> you work in d.c.? >> smiled. >> i work with espn. >> no kidding. it is a pretty good show. [unintelligible] i worked on your general.

[unintelligible] you do the job. >> enjoy your time. thank you. ok, ok. >> 1, 2, 3. all right. >> ok. you sounded all laid there. -- a little late there. [unintelligible]

>> the best civic organization for young men and america, the boy scouts. -- in america the boy scouts. >> you guys are doing well. what do you like the best? [unintelligible]

[unintelligible]

>> hey, guys, how are you doing? [unintelligible] ♪ >> it is the fifth of january, you cannot complain too much. ♪ >> the south carolina primary as saturday, january 21, and since 1980, the winner has gone on to be the presidential nominee. c-span's "throw to the white house" coverage takes you to the

event. >> i do not think he tried to make it bad. he just did not know what to do. he is over as head. >> we have a message that will appeal not just in south carolina, but across this nation, and in particular in the states that are necessary for us to win the election. >> as candidates get their message out and meet voters. >> we are in another war and we do not know what we are accomplishing and we do not know why we're there. we are going to leave it a bigger mess. >> we need to get our elements out and that it is in our national security interest and that we are not spread so thin. and that we cannot do it right. >> the you want to hold him? >> take a picture. we want to put this on our pets with new page. >> find more resources at our campaign web site with more video from the campaign trail, and read the latest from the candidates, political reporters, and people like you for social media sites at c-span.org

/campaign2012. >> our coverage continues with a rich santorum meeting in florence, live tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. this week, president obama hosted a forum at the white house with business leaders to discuss it in sourcing, how companies are bringing overseas jobs back to the united states. he talks about that in his weekly address. then the republican address this week by north dakota's senator and former gov. john hoeven. he discusses the senate bill that would clear the way for construction of the keystone pipeline which he says would bring 700,000 barrels of oil a day from canada. >> i brought a few things with me for this week's video. a padlock, a pair of boots, at candle, and a pair of socks. we are not having a yard sale. they are united by three words

-- "made in america." they are manufactured by american workers in american factories and shipped to customers in here and around the world. the companies that make these products are part of a hopeful trend. they're bringing jobs back from overseas. you have heard of outsourcing. this is insourcing. this is exactly the kind of commitment to a country we need. this week, i invited executives from businesses to a forum at the white house. these are ceo who take pride in hiring people here in america. not just because it is the right thing to do for the bottom line. but also because it is the right thing to do for the workers, and for our communities, and for our country. i told them what are will tell any business leader. ask yourself what you can do to bring more jobs back to the country that made your success

possible. i will make sure you have a government that does everything in its power to will be succeed. -- to help you succeed. that is why in the next few weeks, i will put forward new tax proposals that will reward companies to choose to do the right thing. we will eliminate tax breaks for companies that move jobs overseas. it is why on friday, i called on congress to help me make government work better for you. we have a 21st century economy, but we have a government organized for the 20th-century. the needs of americans have changed, but our government has not. it has gotten even more complex. that is why i asked congress to reinstate the authority that past presidents have had to streamline the executive branch. it is the same authority that every business owner has to make sure that his business keeps pace with the times.

and that presidents have had for over 50 years. until ronald reagan. i will only use this for reforms that result in more efficiency, better service, and a leaner government. these changes will make it easier for small business owners to get loans and support they need to sell their products around the world. instead of forcing small business owners to navigate the six departments and agencies in the federal government, we will have one department. one place where entrepreneurs can go from the day they come up to an idea to the day they start building a warehouse to the day they're ready to ship their products overseas. in the meantime, we are creating a new website. business usa, it will serve as a one-stop shop for businesses, small and large, that want to start selling their stocks -- stuff around the world. more small-business owners will see their hard work pay off. more companies will be able to hire new workers. we will be able to rebuild the economy that is not known for

financial speculation, but for making and selling products like these. products made in america. thank you. have a great weekend. >> earlier this year, the u.s. chamber of commerce released a study identifying 351 energy products that are stalled nationwide because of overregulation and a bureaucratic permitting process. according to the chamber, those delays are costing the american economy $1.10 trillion. they're costing us 2 million jobs every year. with nearly 40 million americans -- 14 million americans still out of work, and unemployment at over 8% for nearly three years, the president continues to believe that higher taxes and more government regulation is the right approach. i am center john hoeven from north dakota. i want to talk to about the keystone pipeline. its illustrates just what i mean. this new $7 billion pipeline, the largest shovel-ready project in the country, would

reduce our dependence on middle east oil, helped keep down the cost of energy, and create thousands of jobs for american workers at a time when our nation so greatly needs them. before i came to the u.s. senate, i was governor of north dakota for a decade. back home, we raised incomes and kept unemployment below 4%. the lowest rate in the country. today, it is still below straight in the nation. -- still the lowest rate in the nation. we created thousands of jobs for north dakota. and a paycheck to support families. we did not do it with temporary stimulus measures, but by empowering private sector, by building the kind of regulatory climate that encourages private investment and spurs economic growth. why is the president and is why is the president and is administration doing the opposite? why is he taking a course of action that the bureaucratic barriers in the way of economic

growth and jobs? --'s pray that question in let's frame that question in terms that mattered to every american. a week ago, newspapers across the country ran a story warning consumers that gasoline could rise to more than $4 a gallon this year. in the same week, we saw world markets reacted nervously to the standoff between the u.s. and iran. through its one-third of the world oil is now shipped. combine all of this with growing global demand for oil, especially in china, and we have a recipe for a higher energy prices. and more personal hardship for working americans. what will consumers say when gasoline returns to $4 a gallon? what will they say when the cost of services and consumers' goods rise because the cost of energy is driving the prices? the president is saying note to the keystone pipeline. he is saying no to a project that will bring more than 700,000 barrel of oil a day from canada.

he was assuring continued reliance on the middle east. that makes no sense. it is a matter of great concern for national security, a particular with what is going on in iran. last month, the u.s. senate passed apparel tax cut measure that includes an important provision that i introduced to clear the way for construction of the keystone pipeline. this pipeline will carry oil not only from alberta canada, but also 100,000 barrels a day from the u.s. region in montana in my home state of north dakota. our legislation accomplishes three crucial things. it makes sure the decision to permit the project can be reached within 60 days. it addresses routing concerns by the state of nebraska. insurance the pipeline permit -- and did in sure is the pipeline permit -- and then it pipeline permit -- and then it in shores -- it ensures the

pipeline permit includes strong and pacific environmental protections. it is hard to imagine a project that is more in the national interest in the interest of the american people. our bill and did not even pass when the u.s. state department said it would not allow sufficient time to evaluate the project. nothing can be further from the truth. our bill requires a decision by the president on whether the project is in the national interest within 60 days. it's no time limit whatsoever on the administration's ability to review and set the pipeline's route from nebraska. it was the only area of contention. in fact, secretary of state hillary clinton told me in a july letter that the department expected to announce its decision by the end of the year. in august, the state department issued the results of its final environmental review. the point is this. if the keystone pipeline is not built, canadian oil will still be produced and transported. 700 barrels a day of that.

-- 700,000 barrels a day of it. instead of coming to our refineries in the united states, instead of creating jobs for our people, that oil will be sent to china. the keystone pipeline project is not on the president's agenda before next year's election, which is unfortunate. it is private sector projects like this and the hundreds of others cited by the u.s. chamber study that will get our nation working again. i have worked towards approval of the keystone pipeline first as governor of north dakota, and now with my colleagues as a u.s. senator, because it is the kind of project that will grow our economy and create more jobs. that is the larger point. we must empower private investment and create sustainable jobs to lift up our country. the president and his administration need to join us in creating the kind of legal tax and regulatory environment that empowers private

investment. that is the approach that will grow our economy and get people back to work. that is the approach that will reduce our deficit and strengthen our nation. that is the approach that will ensure a brighter future for our children. thank you, and god bless. >> next, the communicators with new york times technology reporter nick bilton. then an espionage cases in 2011. after that, tim scott leads the town hall meeting with undecided voters. tomorrow on wgn," adam beam previews that saturday's south carolina gop primary. author linda killian talks about her book, q q the swing vote." and david cole talks about the status of the guantanamo bay to

intention camp. "washington journal" live every day at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c- span. span. >> this week, new york times technology -- >> this week on "the communicators," "new york times" columnist nick bilton talks about how technology has changed the media. >> we like to look at the future what technology is coming down the road. nick bilton, what do you write about? about? >> i write about anything to do with technology and business and the way society is changing culture. i read about companies that affect what we're doing. it is just a range of technology and culture.

>> when did you move to the san francisco area? >> i am a san francisco resident as of 4 months ago. how was in new york for 15 years on the east coast. i am out here now enjoying the weather. >> why did you move out there? >> i have been in the city for 15 years. i have been a reporter for a couple of years now. before that i was in the research and development lab. my job there was to look into the future. when i became a reporter, there definitely was a burgeoning tech scene. a lot of startups but there is a whole different world out here in silicon valley. it has been an amazing to go down to the valley and meet with some of these companies and see some of the things happening in san francisco. >> two questions from your last answer, what are the research and development labs of "the new york times."

>> the idea was when you look at the paper, you have reporters that are recording daily stories. they are embedded in whatever their beat is. you have the web development team that produced the website. between those two, they are so focused on the daily work they don't get to look at things coming down the road two years from now. they decided to start this research lab at based of something you would find at mit or nyu. or nyu. what we can unmatched in the -- what we can imagine the media world to look like in the next 10 years. this is a small group of about 10 people or so. we would sit around and try to figure out what happens when smartphones exits that everyone is home and telephones that can talk to you.

or mirrors the contract or you're going and deliver news? we started to build a lot of prototypes around at that. >> are any of the prototypes in use by "the new york times" now? >> there are some data visualization projects we did or retract how people come to the -- where we started to track how people come to the website. one of the projects we did is we tracked the day that michael jackson died. we look at who was coming to the website and where they were coming from and how quickly the news and information spread. it was just a data exercise. what was fascinating about the research is that we found people around the globe discovered michael jackson passed away in a matter of minutes. it literally spread from new york to california to japan to africa in just a matter of minutes. we created this map where you traffic coming to the site. it almost explodes. it was funny because cn and restore that said michael -- cnn wrote a story that said michael jackson dies and almost

takes the internet with them because the news and information was spreading so quickly. now that is being used internally to track on a daily basis house stories are spreading on social media. >> did you find that the business models from the new york times used forever, are they all outdated. not just the new york times but other publishing companies andnt other publishing companies and a television etc.? >> i think business models are definitely outdated. whether it is newspapers, radios, all these different things. i think what you are seeing with some of the innovations happening is with blogs and a smaller startups. a perfect example of that is a lot of these technology blogs that have started does not have to worry about brick and mortar issues and printing presses and multi me million dollar tv -- multimillion-dollar tv studios. they do not just look at bringing in revenue based on advertising. they look at different aspects. one of the things we are seeing is some sites do things where

they have communities. they say you peso money dollars -- pay x dollars a month and you get access to our writers or specific papers were published before anyone else. another thing you see are conferences. the conference market has been around for many years. ticket look at tech crunch for example which is a technology blogger based in new york and san francisco. 90% of their revenue comes from conferences they hold where they hold -- where they make millions of dollars. i think when you look at the media business model, you should not just look at a prescription and advertising and classifieds. classifieds. there can be a whole different gamut of things people can do to give money to the organizations. television is an interesting model to look at because you have free over the air television with advertising.

you have limited cable. you have premium cable. you have pay-per-view where people can watch things ought to live and netflix. there is always different ranges and ways people can pay for those things that make the most sense for them. >> somebody of your generation can read about technology. do you subscribe to pay television in any way or do you watch it over the internet? >> i do not. i canceled my cable one and a half years ago. it was one of the greatest decisions i made. i can to not only consume cable television in the way i did -- i tend to not consumed television the way i did many years ago. it is difficult to navigate with remote controls. a lot of the content is not that great. you have channels were a lot of tv shows are just filling up space. i think there are only a few really good shows. i have a computer hooked up to my television at home. i have a wireless mouse that looks like a donut. you can hold it in the air and

move it a round. i watch things on hulu or netflix or i will buy something on itunes. one of the things that really has changed is not necessarily how i watchman's dream content but the fact that i just do not watch mainstream -- watch main stream content, but the fact i do not watch mainstream content. we pull up youtube and pass around the rebel control and the keyboard. it becomes a very social way of watching the news or watching content online. >> nick bilton, you also mentioned earlier you are amazed at seeing silicon valley and being exposed to it now on a regular basis. for somebody who has not been out there, what would you tell them about silicon valley? >> it is funny. >> it is funny. when i first came out here

somebody from twitter said "welcome to baghdad by the day -- bay." i did not get it at first. it is being imbedded in a different country. and managing editor for the new york times was out here last week celebrating the expansion of the blog that i write for. we took him around and showed him all of these companies. he said it is essentially like the new english out here. it is our job to translate what is happening. when you see some of the things happening out here and what the future looks like -- a lot of the projects being built and the start-ups a couple of years they had were the main stream will be, you can really see how amazing and how much of a different language it is when you look at the technology and how we interact with it. >> nick bilton is a columnist for the bit section and "the new york times."

he is also the author of a book last year. "i live in the future and here is how it works." >> that is a term that google uses. it means you eat your own dog food. when google builtgmail, the required their developers to use gmail and it is called dog fooding. >> why do you use that term and how did that -- how did you eat your own dog food for the "new york times"? >> i tried to practice what i keep -- tecah. i did -- at a press becoming a reporter there as something like starting a start up. i do what i do online in the paper.

i am constantly using social media, twitter, facebook, google+ -- all of these different things to reach out to readers. to readers. i let them know about breaking news as i am writing it. i follow the article all the way through no matter what the story is. that is something very different than the print model where you write the story and the only way somebody can communicate with reporters back in the day was to write a letter to the editor. that was a little column in the back that was edited. just in the narrative changes would you can have conversations with your readers. it is also eating dog food in the way that i do not think

about things and words. if i am updating my twitter or facebook account, i am not just writing words i am putting photos and videos and links. i do the same thing with reporting war i. create graphics or shoot -- where i am reporting and i create graphics or shoot a video. >> what about feedback? >> feedback is great. readers like being a part of the conversation. they can now do that. there are some angry readers that do not like things that i write. for the most part, the feedback is always good. one thing i found that is helpful to the readers and myself is that if i am interviewing somebody -- let's say i am interviewing bill gates. i asked him if it is ok. i will send a tweet an update my facebook and ask if there are any questions people want me to ask him. a couple of them i will ask him and will make it into the story. this ark of the narrative where the reader is not just reading

but they are also participating. i think that has been really helpful. >> in your book, one of the opening stories you tell is how you no longer subscribe to the print edition of your paper. >> it was an interesting experience. when i first started, i remember one of the most exciting parts of working there was the fact that i could get the sunday paper on saturdays. they print an early version called "the bulldog." i used to ride my bike over to the bureau, the main headquarters, and wait for the print edition to come. i would go home and devour it. france started asking me and i was essentially coming back to piles and piles of newspaper. a lot of my friends stopped asking me to get the sunday newspaper. then my paper started to pile up. it was not that i was not

reading the times, it was that i was not reading it in that capacity. i started reading it on my e- reader. i was consuming it differently. i decided i no longer wanted to get the paper products. i wanted to consume it on digital devices. it is definitely preferential to me -- [inaudible] it is still not that way for a lot of readers. there are 1 million people that still subscribe to the paper. >> how did you cancel your subscription? >> i had to call from the newsroom. i was very nervous about it. i did not know if somebody i knew would pick up the phone on the other end. i called and i canceled. they tried to convince me otherwise. luckily it was not somebody that i knew. >> when that news came out that

you had canceled your paper subscription, what was the reaction from "the new york times"? >> it was not good. i was being interviewed by "wired" on some research for the labs. the reporter said, by the way, the you still read the print paper? i said, no, i did not. i read it on this product called "the times reader." it looked just like a newspaper experience but in the digital format. the lead of this article was "nick bilton once the news, it is these papers he cannot stand." and it was definitely an easy response. they recognize i was essentially kind of the next generation of readers.

they needed to listen to what i had to say and what other reporters at the paper that would not necessarily reading the print experience had to say. that is a testament to them having the research lab. that is a testament to that building the iphone apps and all of these things. >> in your book and in your columns, you talk about the me generation. what you mean by that? >> there are a couple of different things to that. one of the things that has happened is digital looks forward to a world where we get things that are smart and they understand what we want. i may want to watch a tv show on my iphone. you may want to watch it of a 72 inch plasma television. i think what digital of ford's is the ability to be able to do that. what ever is preferential to you. whether it is tv your news articles -- it is really some

of by how we consume content these days on all of these devices. that is one of the beauties of digital. in the same respect, there is also a term i talked about in the book called "the economics." if they would have gone 20 years ago, if you went to a bookstore and the purchase the book and he did not like you could have returned it. the same with a video or what ever it is. in the digital world you cannot do it. it is one of the flaws the way we dealt the system. if you buy a song from itunes north dakota do not like it, you -- and it turns out you do not like it, you cannot return it. you are stuck with it. you have taking kids to have taken this into their own hands. they say, i bought this last problem and i did not like it. -- album and i did not like it. in the physical world i would be able to return it. in the digital world i will "steal" the next version to balance things out a little bit. >> the subtitle of your book is "why your world, work, and

brain are being creatively disruptive." there is something in here about video games. what is that about? >> one of the reasons i wrote the book is in response to a lot of books and articles out there that are saying that the internet is bad for us and technology is bad for us. i did not agree. one of the reasons for that is because i have had a computer when i was 4 years old. i have essentially gone up in the digital world. i think i turned out ok. people might argue otherwise. in reality, there is no evidence that says these things are bad for us. i started to do some research into what happens with our brains when we are using devices and when we are using iphone and ipad and things like that. i spoke to neuroscientists all across the country. there are a couple of things i discovered.

there is some research that says video games are very good for us. there was some research that found kids to play first shooter video games actually have the visual acuity of somebody who is deaf. they have better hand i ordination and long-term and short-term working memory and a long list of other things. there was research done in california about things -- about people who play tetras what they found the same results. a video games are a different form of storytelling. they are not bad. they are not going to replace books or movies or something like that. they are a new form of the weakened some content. to say that they are bad is completely inaccurate. as far as the surgeons, there was some research where they found surgeons who play video games are actually 40% faster

than those who do not. an epiphany i had at the moment was when i was looking at marion's research, she is a nuero scientist that deals with research. she said the the human brain is not designed to read. when you say video games are bad for us and we should be reading books, art prints were not designed for that either. it is creating this new form of storytelling. >> to also look at the pornography industry as a cutting edge industry. >> one of the things the pornography industry has been at the forefront of technology at the forefront of technology for thousands of years. i found from a friend who works at the science magazine was at the forefront of business back

in the day selling statues in the markets. the pornography industry has always been an innovator because a lot of government officials and religious leaders have always tried to suppress the pornography industry. they have tried to find a way to reach consumers by going around the rules of the day. if you look at the printing press, two of the most popular books in the early days of the printing press. one was the bible and the other was a book that was essentially erotic tales. you can follow this all the way through the porn industry. when it came to dvd is to cds to the internet. in the early days of the web

where people were using it for e-mail and science journals and then there was born. -- porn. i interviewed a lot of different porn companies. what i found was the larger organizations, the playboys and penthouses, had gone out of business and they had been purchased and gone bankrupt and were tens of millions of dollars in the hole. you had this small group of start-ups that had started to create content and sell it to a very small audience. it was almost esoteric to a certain degree. the content of work creating was people were paying for it. what i found is just like what we are seeing today were you have a lot of larger news organizations and magazines and so on that are having trouble continuing the revenue growth that they have had in the past, you have smaller blogs starting

up and saying, we do not need to have a printing press or a new studio. we can do this from our bedroom. we can reach the same audience with the same kind of quality content. >> nick bilton, is the occupied wall street movement a good example of how facebook and twitter are much more powerful than a "new york times"editorial today? >> as far as motivating people? i would definitely agree with that. as far as influence i do not know about that. they are both powerful to a degree. the movement was not started by the new york times, it was almost started by adbusters which is a magazine that is very liberal. it was perpetuated by the people. they are "occupy wall streets"

movements around the world. i was watching video of all these areas outside my bedroom i hear -- i'm sorry, outside of my hotel room i hear all of this yelling and there is a movement and madrid. you can see how quickly this movement spreads. there are two aspects to it. it only started in october and is now everywhere. the other aspect to it is in the past we relied on the media to be the one to be the watchdog. that is still the role of the media. people are now part of that as well. the devices we all carry around in our pockets, everybody has a printing press. everybody can reach the same number of people that the "new york times" can with the same content. receive the same reaction with police. it was a veteran beating -- beaten by police in oakland. you can see the u.s. -- the uc-

davis event where officers pepper sprayed students sitting on the floor. there is a ricocheting of the days between media and people involved on occupy wall street or they are helping perpetuate the conversation together. >> often write about personal experiences. one of them is when you boot up to the west coast and you wrote "move the books or leave them." >> a difficult decision that generated quite a bit of discussion. i was packing up my stuff to move to san francisco and i had piles of books. i thought to myself, do i want to bring these out? for the most part, they literally sat on the bookshelf and my living room for the past few years. all of the new books that i buy are on my candle or by ipad.

i do not remember the last one i actually bought a printed book. was it worth it to ship all these things out? these things out? it would just sit on a bookshelf again in california. i decided to take about 10% and leave about 90%. >> you also wrote a recent column -- there is no data sheriff on the wide web. >> one thing i have been writing about is the lack of privacy on the internet. facebook as more information on people it around the world than any government agency could even dream of. there is nobody regulating them. one of the reasons this evening came up is because earlier this year sony was hacked and 77 million people's personal affirmation was essentially compromised by hackers. one of the reason was that sony had outdated servers and they did not have the proper protocol in place.

there are no rules or regulations that said that they have to. there was no slap on the wrist. there was no -- nobody got into any trouble. that could essentially happening again with any company. part of the reason for this is because there is no legislation. this is a real problem. there is this tectonic shift that happen online where people's privacy is no longer owned by them. it is a currency we use. i think it is a real problem that we are going to see the effects of over the next few years as more and more people's content and information and personal information is taken advantage of. >> are most people not aware of what they are providing to these companies and doing so willingly? aren't silicon valley companies

reluctant or pushing back against legislative efforts? >> i do not think people are aware. if you go into google and you type in a search for something personal like prostate cancer, google stores that search and less to tell them otherwise not to. if you are part of a group of facebook -- maybe it is a religious group or what ever it is. facebook has that knowledge. i do not think a lot of people are aware that these things are happening. i recently last year had to go on a television show and explain how to change your privacy settings on facebook. i could not figure it out. i am a technology reporter who is excessively on line and i could not figure out how to change my facebook privacy settings. a lot of people are unaware of the things happening when they are on these websites. the companies like google and

facebook and all of these companies benefit from that because they can deliver advertising. they get to store all of this data and make money off of that. there is a lot of push back from them. i think it is pretty apparent that there needs to be some kind of oversight to say that people need to have access to their content and information and to be able to delete it from the internet. also, there beats to be some oversight to say that these companies should have specific protections in place to protect privacy as the store this information online. >> nick bilton, you were recently offered a different job, were you not? >> i was. >> what was that other job and why did you not take it? >> i was recently offered a television related job. i very seriously consider taking it. in the end, i really love working at "the new york times." i am proud of the reporting that everybody i work with us.

i am proud of the reporting i do and my editors. i do not think you can really get that in many other places. when i look at the facts when we talk about the mainstream media vs. people on twitter and so long -- twitter, they definitely live in the same world but it is very important for these media companies to keep an eye on the things that are happening. are happening. for example, facebook's privacy and to really report on these things. >> if people want to redo, what is the best way to find you? >> all of my stories are a share on line on twitter or facebook. you can find me on anything on the internet @nickbilton. that is pretty much it. >> if you have your own web site as well? >> that is right. >> if you go to nickbilton.com

and pick up his book, there are qr codes in every chapter for more content. there is a picture of the book on your screen right now. nick bilton has been our guest. thank you for your time. >> thank you for having me. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> next, our view of the successes and failures of espionage cases in 2011. next, a forum for undecided voters. then, the decision to consolidate some federal agencies. on "newsmakers," we hear what

social and conservative -- religious conservatives are looking for in the campaign with 2012 with the president of the ethics and religious liberty commission. "newsmakers" sunday at 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. eastern on c- span. >> in this episode, we will look at nick perry -- rick perry's surprising comments on climate change and scientists. >> very substantial number of scientists who have manipulated data. >> what i do is i rate different comments by politicians on a 1 to 4 scale. it uses of the ridiculous, you will get four of pinocchios. >> glenn kessler evaluate the truthfulness of political figures and others. >> whether or not they're

deliberately lying, i do think if a politician says the same thing over and over again, even when it has been pointed out it is not true, they know they're saying something untrue. they're just going to say it anyway. >> sunday night at 8:00 p.m. on "q&a." >> the internationals by museum held an event looking back at intelligence gathering successes and failures in 2011. the speaker was david major, who served as security director of the national security council from 1985 through 1987 under the reagan administration. please be advised, there is some video at the beginning of this event about saddam hussein's death that some might find difficult to watch. this is just over two hours. >> our speaker this evening, david major, is a founding board member of the international spy museum. member -- our speaker this

evening, david major, is a founding board member of the international spy museum. he told me i cannot say he is an esteemed a board member, because that would make him sound old. he is not old. but he is a retired supervisory special agent and director of counterintelligence and security programs for the nse under reagan. he is founderf the center that provides counterintelligence, security studies, and trading. -- training. without further ado, i will turn it over to david major. you are in for a dazzling evening, and i hope your heads are clear and are ready to absorb an intense and exciting amount of information. [applause] >> that is a heck of a start.

first of all, thank you for coming out on a rainy night like today. it is difficult to drive in washington at any time, especially in weather like this. what we want to do is show you e reality of the world today. thiss sponsored by the international spy museum, a database that keeps track of what is happening in the entire world in the world of espionage and terrorism. my own background -- i have been doing this blogger than most of you have been alive, but i look out and i see people with white hair and i feel comfortable when i see demographics like that. i did notice the black and white picture, the fbi photograph when i joined the bureau. i spent my entire careeroing counterintelligence and counterterrorism. i eventually worked in the

national security council for ronald reagan as the director of counterintelligence programs. first time they ever put counterintelligence on the policy table. it was an intereing experience, because the first time i walked into the oval office to shake hands with ronald reagan, he said to me, "you know, i was an informant for the fbi." my answer was, "of course, we are proud of that fact," lying blatantly, because i did not know he had been an informant for the fbi. how come i spent my entire career doing this i do not know that part, that during the 1940's he was an informant for the bureau when he was president of actors guild? it made me think about we need a center of excellence to look at this important discipline called counterintelligence, and that is how the cia centere -- the ci center came to be. we are going to look at the

world. we are going to look at a variety of ways. we are going to look athat intelligence agencies and operatives around the world, l are like. i will probay run out of time before i run out of cases. it turns out that every year is a big year. we are going to look today -- it was not a good year for some intelligence chiefs around the world. we are going to try to define what is this thing of espionage we talk about, because every nation has a different definition of what espionage is paid at that we will turn to the united states and say who was sentenced in 2011, who committed the crime earli in 2011 and finally had the case finalized in 2011? we will look at what you cases surfaced in -- new cases surfaced in 2011. we are going to look at a couple

of cases that took place in europe which have been very interesting. then we will turn to the great spy wars going on in asia, and remarkable i have tried to be selective around the world. why listen to this lecture? espionage "trl, collecting intelligence covertly is still happening. it is a timeless reality and it has been going on and it will go on regardless of international relations. internationally, espionage is viewed as a political crime and as a result, it is a non- extraditable no nation will extradite you back for that particular crime. partly because espionage is

used by some regimes as a way to suppress people. it is not used like we do in the united states. it is often used by nations as an excuse to suppress political dissent. we see that going on right now. it has the potential for major international security implications when one of these cases services. my experience has been that often it is discounted by some, many in the media, look at it as unimportant as it relates to world events. you can take courses in international relations and world events and i look at what is the role of intelligence and counterintelligencand espionage and oftens forgotten your. have learned happy history. if you learn real history, you realize that over and over again, intelligence and loss of information or the acquisition

of information has been the defining factor in world events. espionage is not an unimportant factor. it is huge. this has not been a good year for some intelligence agencies around the world. who has fallen on hard times? we must first look at libya. it did not go so well for the head of their intelligence service. after libyaell, he and the one surviving son of moammar khaddafi were ctured in the southwest corner of libya. the sun was captured and he will go on trial but the chief of intelligence has fallen from view. he was captured in november of this year and he is reported to be held in a secret location. have been no photographs of him and no reports of him since he was arrested on november 20 and there is speculation as to what has happened to him.

that would be simply to watch because it may not go well for him. i don't think he was loved by the new regime ver. we look at egypt. as you may recall, the head of their intelligence service, he specialized in torture and other things listed there. i was in egy when it fell. i arrived on the 24th and the revolution started on the 25th and i had to escape in a flight that took us out thatluxor and into aman and then into israel. it was a story unto itself it was not a safe place when it had to get out on the 30th. what is going to happen is yet

to be determined in egypt. the chief of intelligence when mubarak resigned, he took over the presidency and he announced the resignation and he fell from view. he withdrew from the political scene. he was not seen again but after he left in february until he appeared in court in september of 2011. he testified agast mubarak. one thing he said is mubarak can never say he did not know what is going on. he has not been arrested. he has not been prosecuted. what will happen to him as this unfolds in agent is yet to be seen. he has tried to maintain a low profe so he fell from power.

syria, the director general is still in power. the united states has triedo make it as difficult as they can for the director of the syrian intelligence service may be because of the oppression that is been taking place there. his assets were frozen as for the assets of the syrian general intelligence service. his personal assets were frozen, the intelligence service as of four frozen and so were those of the brother of the president who was a brigadier general. that is how we responded. it appears he is still in power reported, the head of their intelligence service, and we will see what transpires in syria depending on what will happen this year. south africa is where most people don't watch but it is an interesting turn of events. the head of their service was called the south african minister for state security and runs the three major intelligence services.

he got very upset in september of 2011 and fire that had of their intelligence service because he said he did not provide protection for my wife was under investigation for drug smuggling. his wife was convicted of drugs -- drug smuggling. the results of that is that the three officials objected to providing secret service protection for his wife during her trial in may of 2011. she was convicted and he is still in power, by the way, as is the government there. it appears the real conflict and not have been as much as it relates to the wife of ahead of their intelligence service as it was that the president wanted the intelligence services to begin on authorized operations

on cabinet ministers. that means it looks like they're trying to devote their entire book is -- intellince service for political reasons. they said they would not do that and as a result, he fired. ahead is close to the president of south never go who still holds power. if you'd better -- if you take on the king, you better win. the chief of the national intelligence agency of south africa is the domestic intelligence and counterintelligence service and that would be like the fbi in the united states. it would be like mi5 would be like in england. c they are ci service andhe first one to

resign was in october. this staed in september and he resigned in october of 2011. he was probably forced to resign because the guy wanted to fire him. that had of their state security agency responsible for civilian intelligence operations was forced to retire in december of this year. he was forced to resign in december and it looks like he was paid off or there was money that was exchanged for him to leave office. that took place just last month in december and ahead of their for intelligence service which is an organization of about 7000 people, the equivalent of their cia or mi6, for the south africans -- he has resigned and resigned this year and he is being replaced by a person who is not an telligence professional.

south african intelligence services have fallen on hard times. something recently happened in russia that you may or may not have been aware of. it took place during the christmas holiday. the head of the gru who was there from 2009-2011, which is a short period of time to be the chief of the gru, he resigned on christmas eve. there is a lot of controversy as to whether he resigned because it was time for him to retire which is what you say international or he was forced to. he leaves christmas eve and he leaves the gru -- for years, those of us heard about the co of the gru. they describe it to the senate looks like a bad man signal.

makkah -- batman symbol. it is batman. they say we control the night. they talked about the new model. he left and the new chief was appointed aay after christmas and i have the brand new facility that they openedp in moscow. you are looking at two symbols of the gru. the one on the right it was there until 2009 and the her one is an exploding bomb. reportedly, this came out of the russian media that it is the largest intelligence service. we know that they fsb svr have 4000 intelligence officers and the have half the population

that had during the cold war. the population of the soviet union was 296 million people when they were collapsing. in 2011, the population has dropped about 140,000 russians which is half the population -- 140 million russians which is half the population. that is a 20% drop in the size of the service. they talk about the fact that they gru has more people

overseas doing for intelligence. it is a spy organization. it does not have a domestic mission. the russians said there was six times as many as the fsb and the svr. it was never touched by the collapse of the soviet union. it has continued on. there has been some changes in intelligence services this year. espionage, acquiring information, is a me as reality. at the international spy museum we talk about the school for spies. i used to teach a course on the secret histo of history. sliverust looking at a as we go perot this review of

2011. the development of legal tools in the united states is what we struggle with. when someone is arrested in the united states, an awful lot o ever goes into it. it is never used in a political standpoint. thereclosed society, are controls that are bigger than the crime of espionage. in the united states, we have many controls because repair a police state or counterintelligence state. it c always tell the power of a society by looking at how they come to power. if you look at a nation state and you ask if they were granted power by the people, the government does not fear the people.

our government is granted power by the people in the united states. in other societies, they fear the people because they use airpower from the people and therefore they have ver, very large intelligence organizations and usually there counterintelligence service is bigger than their intelligence service. counterintelligence states are china, russia, north korea because they usurped the power from the people. ere's always a balance between civil liberties and a collection strategies used to deal with that. i like to say is all about values. i love this quote --

i take exception to his view of that. however, it is a tongue-in-cek y -- with sometimes fierce spy catchers. we say there are no real spies but there really are and they exist. >> after six months in power, the vast party is toppled. we had sent would be coups in 10 years. >> in 1968, the party reclines wer. it is the final coup. this time the role with an iron grip and no tolerance for dissent.

taking command, the new president appoints his cousin as vice president, saddam hussein. >> nobody took him seriously. you are surprised to see this young civilian standing next to the general who led the coup. saddam is head of the mukhabarat, the secret police. he stassen with loyal members of his drug and launches a systematic campaign of terror designed to limit the opposition and intimidate the population. >> he created a second layer of government.

in every single ministry, there is a desk that reported directly to saddam hussein. >> [spaeking farsi] >> all the security personnel were his people. the money he gave them and the cars and prestige and power. people had never had any of that. >> in early january of 1969, a scene starke reminiscent of nazi germany, saddam her as a public event to demonstrate the policies of the new regime.

thousands court part -- thousands graduated in liberation square. >> that is the point -- condemned the spies. you want to say there is an external enemy, you said despise the the problem therefore i have to suppress and implement certain policies. you see that around the world in a variety of counter intelligence states using has been us as an excuse to suppress dissidents and establish power. some of us may not know that saddam hussein was the head of their counterintelligence effort. he was falsely accusing people of being spies. we don't have to go very far in history to see that happening today. we look of a powder keg of american intelligence and we look at the cases that surfaced on december 15 is the young man

from arizona wse family lives in michigan whose fatr is a college professor who was working for a company that did contract work for the u.s. marine corps, was visiting his grandmothern august-september of this year and he had dual citizenship and went back to visit his grandmother but dual citizenship is not recognized by iran. soon after arriving, within three weeks he was arrested. he fell from view in the fall and on the december 15, confesseds a individual saying he was a cia operative. that took place on december 15. you have probably been watching this in the news. >> a man was accused of trying to infiltrate iran for the cia.

the prosecutors said he entered to the department three times. but he could be punished with the death penalty on a military bases. he repeated a confession on state tv on december 80. his lawyer rejected the accusation. new dates for the next court hearing were not released. >> the story appears that he volunteered to the military intelligence, volunteered at least three times, was arrested and they said they had observed them in afghanistan and day observed of havi contact with americans which he did that because it was a contract for the military, arrested, and he confessed. to our great surprise on january

9, he was sentenced to death and had 20 days to appeal. this is ongoing today. this is a perfect sample o administration, a regime, that is using this issue to crack down on this individual. what is interesting is that he had dual citizenship and went back there and went back there at a time when iran is concerned about people coming into iran because they have had series of assassinations like the one that took place today in iran. he walked into this situation and now he faces the death penalty barry just after the, the white house made a statement where they said is not connect with american intelligence. and that is not always done around the world would someone who was arrested.

this will be a big issue for us. there's very little i think we can do about this. watch that one very carefully. were talking about spying but this is a terrorism case. it relates to iran and it has to do with the plot to kill the saudi arabian ambassador here in washington, d.c. using a cousin of the kudzforce. they have huge power in iran. some people say it does not make sense we teach a 10-day course

on the iranian culture and the iranian intelligence service. they are a very important national security issue. they like to use family. it makes all the sense in the world that a member of their intelligence service would reject a cousin down in texas who happens to be a car dealer and sacred to find someone in a mexican cartels to conduct an assassination in washington. if that had been successful, which they were not, because there were attached to a dea informant, if they hadeen successful, you can imagine what would have happened if there had been a bombing or an assassination here in washington with the saudi ambassador. we would start an investigation and would track and back to mexico and no one would have said that the iranians did that. the iranians are very careful to protect themselves. they never claimed

responsibility for kobar towers. they had been at war with this since 1979. are we going to war, from and that iranian standpoint they already are. this makes all the sense in the world and it will be interesting to watch it unfold. it is remarkable that we were surprised by it. it was very north korean-like but it is also iranian-allied. how big is the terrorism threat? students tosk my stay as county people have been arrested in e united states for terrorist-related plotzed cents 9/11 derie. we track that every singlday. we have a cas pagevery single day when a new case breaks. we have an understanding of how big this problem is. ifou were to say how many plots have been uncovered and

how many people have been arrested and you ask yourself what that number is, how many would come up with the right number? the right number is at least one-third 19 people who have been charged with terrorist- related crime since 9/11 very the blue line is number of plots and the bread line is the number of individuals. about 50% of the plots are singular and the other 50 percent are multiple-people plus. the average number in alot have been about five over the 119 + that we looked at. the average is five. or don't find large networks five -- or five networks of five people to do it. we just had two arrests this week and terrorism. as the most recent information on how big the terrorism issue has been. when you hear that in 2011, which just found out about homegrown terrorism, but it

attracted which we have been doing: a look at the numbers. we have the cases and the legal documents and everyone ofhe cases. we are always surprised we see some statements made about terrorism. treachery is no more rare than we thought it would be. it is not as rare as we think it is. we run a red little red schoolhouse and the training and try to trackhis. we had our first case 501 which is a fire-day course. since that time, we have had 54 different courses in all sorts of different areas. we hado come up with a mechanism to make our case is relevant to we did speak with some authority on was happening.