national center for education statistics and catherine bradshaw with the prevention of youth violence. "washington journal is next. . gap in politics. we're going to turn over our discussion this morning, women viewers for you to offer your

opinion about the republican likely nominee, romney, as both parties make accusations about their appeal to women voters. our phone lines are open on this friday morning for women callers only. you can post your comment on facebook or twitter, women only, for the first 45 minutes. but our next segment is on politics and men will be part of that discussion. good friday morning to you. we would like to show you some numbers and about how both parties are using those numbers to fight a war of words about their appeal to women voters. we will begin with a survey that looked at the gender gap, a concept that's been around since the 1980's, but looking at fresh numbers this year. this is from march 29, the

gender gap, three decades old, as wide as ever. turning the page so you can see there are some discrepancies in these numbers. linda feldman is the white house correspondent for the christian

science monitor. she has been writing about the gender gap issue if and how the two campaigns are charging this week. she is on the line with us to start the program. good morning. if this is a three-decade old situation, why is it getting highlighted right now? >> i think it started because a whole flap over the birth control. it started as an advantage for the republicans because obama was seen as over-- on the issue of religious liberties and on his efforts to require religious institutions to provide birth control health plans. -- overreaching. but then when sandra fluke attempted to testify, but could not, and an all-male panel went on in congress, and then rush limbaugh made his unfortunate

comment calling her a prostitute, then the white house ran with that as if the republicans are against birth control. that was toxic. this is not to say it caused the gender gap, but it gave the democrats a good run in appealing to women and getting their female bass activated. host: we will show some clips and some tweets about how the candidates or their surrogates are speaking to highlight this. as you have watched both parties punching and counterpunch and on this, what stands out? guest: the democrats are making an assumption that the reproductive rights issue is what is going to drive them all the way to the white house. that is really not the case. if you look at the abortion issue, there's no gender gap. you can take that one off the table. it helps and hurts both sides

evenly. the larger issue on the gender gap really is how women perceive the role of government. the pole pointed out women are more likely than men to favor [unintelligible] i think in the end barack obama can count on having more -- winning the women's vote. real question is who wins the men's boats and who can outdo the other with the genders. be keyindependence will of the election is close to. how do the two parties do with independent women, perhaps mitt romney in particular? guest: obama is winning among independent voters. as we have seen barack obama's

numbers go up and down, the play is in the middle with independent voters. i think for somebody like mitt romney, the key is to keep focusing on economic issues and skipped social issues altogether. host: linda feldman writes about the white house for the christian science monitor. you can find her reporting on line. thanks for being our first bourse this morning on the washington journal. -- first voice. we would really like to hear women's voices on this. we will ask your views on mitt romney. you can contrast with other gop candidates in the race for president or with other politicians that you favor. we would like to hear what you think. if on our facebook page anwe

have this posted. you can continue to post and women can tweet us as well. this was mitt romney in washington. " our party has traditionally faced a gender gap. the democratic party has done an effective job at trying to mischaracterized our views. in the final analysis i will win by having the support of men and women in the battleground states and across the country. that will be by focusing on issues that make women and men care most about. my wife had the occasion to campaign on own and also with me. she reports to me regularly did issue women care about most is the economy and getting good jobs for the kids and themselves. they're concerned about gas prices, cost of getting to and from work, taking their kids to school and to practice after

school. that is what women care about in this country. my vision is to get america working again. host: that was mitt romney this week. showing you some ways the democrats have been highlighting this issue, david axelrod, strategist for the obama re- election campaign, tweeted this week, which we will show you as we listen to our first caller from meridian, mississippi, pam, a democrat. caller: thank you for having me on c-span. i think the gender gap thing has been going on a long time. it started with wages. in mississippi there's this amendment 26 that basically outlawed birth control pills and it lost passage. i do believe women absolutely do

care what goes on in their bedrooms and that they do want to plan their families and that mitt romney is incorrect in thinking women do not care and i think it's going to be the downfall of the republican party in 2012. host: where do these issues there with you when it comes to the economy and things like that? caller: this is number one. then things like health care and things that go on in your own family. if you lose your rights to plan your family, with these insidious laws that they are passing around the country, people will find themselves maybe even in jail for things they did not know where illegal, just like wanting to go see your doctor. your reproductive rights are between you and your doctor. all of these laws they are passing, they are putting people in a position to fight back. i think they're going to fight back at the polls and the

republican party -- against the republican party. host: let's hear from a republican woman in kansas, charlene. welcome to the conversation. caller: thank you. i just wanted to say i don't think anybody can save this country except for mitt romney. we are in such a mess financially and all these other things are secondary. host: thank you pass. asturias, oregon, mary, an independent. your thoughts about mitt romney, the gop, and the gender gap. caller: for myself, the gender gap is irrelevant. what i'm looking at is what both parties are doing and the affected has on the nation as a whole. i am not concentrating on just women. i think the whole flap about the catholic church being forced to provide birth control free is a

joke. it is an attack on the catholic church and i am not a catholic, but i think they should be able to determine what they pay for. and the whole issue is not access to birth control. it is giving away free stuff. what i have observed in the democratic party is that they purchase those by offering free stuff. the problem with that is it has increased spending so much over the years that now we are in this situation and the democrats will not give up any entitlement stuff. they are not even paying attention to the fact that we are headed for financial crisis. it is all about preserving your power by telling people you will lose this benefit and that benefit if you go with the other party. but the republican party is concentrating on trying to balance the books and keep this country functioning. not to say they are not

interested in power either, but they are not throwing the baby out with the bathwater to buy votes and stay in power and to heck what happens down the line. host: now facebook comment from susie -- next we go to riverdale, georgia on the phone. good morning on the democrats' line. caller: good morning. all this talk about contraception, it is like deja vu. i am 60 years old and we went

through this in the 1960's. my mother had six children. i have three. that was due to contraception. i don't see how anyone else trusts my choice to have control over my body. that does not make sense to me. yes, this is a number one issue for me. host: thanks for calling a. our next call is from augusta, georgia. before that, the masters golf tournament actually became part of the political debate this week. first from wall street journal -- hear you can see this morning in the new york post --

as we learn, from the new york times, it was a bipartisan critique of the golf club because. a statement from mitt romney -- he said that women should be admitted to the masters golf club, as well as rick santorum. now we will hear from a republican. caller: there are private clubs. they can do whatever they want. it does not matter to me if they want to keep it all male. not a big issue in my life. for the president to weigh in on that or anybody, there are bigger fish to fry in this country. we have a huge national debt. that's my number one issue. planned parenthood and contraception, all the other stuff does not matter to me one

bit. if my liberties are taken away from me, that is the most important thing. i feel that this president wants to keep people drawn in by giving them everything instead of giving people a sense of independence and that we can do for ourselves and take care of ourselves. people start relying on the government for everything, then they are going to be really sorry to see that i have no rights anymore because the government is going to end up owning us. that is scary. i want my children to have a sense that we can take care of ourselves and to be independent and strong and not dependent on government. there are so many more important issues. i agree with the caller gets a the catholic church is being attacked. the catholic church has a right

women don't have to work for the catholic church. the church has the right to say we are not going to pay for that. you have the right to go work somewhere else. it is crazy. host: thanks for your call, toni. there's a debate going on about this being a woman on a segment on our twitter seat pleasant. let's hear your comments about the candidates as well. remember, our next segment at 7:45 eastern, we will have mike allen here to talk about their new electronic book along with evan thomas, "inside the circus." this is an opportunity right now for women to discuss their views about politics and about the gender gap between the parties. next, new jersey, a democrat. good morning.

caller: thank you for c-span. your first speaker said the white house --hundreds of laws have been passed against women since the republicans have been in office. second, romney is the only well person i ever hear on television who has to constantly brag about who he knows that owns what and what kind of cars he has. second, the catholic church and other churches if are supposed to abide by all federal laws as other groups. they do not pay taxes and they receive federal grants, so they are not to discriminate in any other way that any other job does. last, i have a complaint against c-span and all other major news outlets.

since this president has been in office, you know longer show was a point of view of the size of the audience that he speaks to. no longer do. we see do we see the first three rows when he walks along and shakes hands, but when you show rick perry, you do show the size of the audience. you zoom out for romney and show the size of the audience. when christie's spoke at the reagan library, you showed the size of the audience, but you never show the size of the audience looking at the president. i am very disappointed. it is msnbc, cnn, and your station. i really wish you would have your camera people to correct that. you show us the size of the audience the whole time the man ran for office, but not today. host: if we showed the size of

the audience, i just don't agree with your premise. i'm sure we could go in our video library and show that. why would there be a change? the news media showed the audience in 2008, why would they not be showing it now? caller: corporations are owned by republicans who do not pay taxes, who ship our jobs to other countries. host: picks that is the reasoning, in our case, we are non-profit corporation and we are not owned. we have no profits. so why would we be doing at? caller: it does not mean your ceo is not a republican. thank you. host: thanks for your call. are not affiliated with a party, actually. from a florida, and joan, a republican.

caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. it's good to get the opposing views stated on your show. it shows that your not one- sided and trying to promote one viewpoint. i feel that mitt romney will be a great leader for this country at this critical time. i am not going to blame obama, of course, for the debt crisis that we are in, but his administration has made it worse. i would just say it is the democratic party's finagling the money system. dodd-frank, that bill is putting the smaller banks, which are the lifeblood of the community, obama and his administration conducted some health care meetings a couple years ago to try to pass this law behind

closed doors without any transparency, without input from the republicans. they had several plans. none of the input was desired. i think what obama wants to do is bankrupt the country and make it a big hospital stay it so we would be beholden to government and the hospitals. they would be directing all the health care. to me it seems almost like a socialist or communist or whatever -- i don't know what type of regime, but it's not based on the freedom that america purports to exhibit to the world. i think this obama and this democrat machine -- i am including nancy pelosi, and john kerry, barney frank, christopher dodd, they all helped us to get into this mess. fannie mae and freddie mac did

not have to pay taxes for many and, many years. host: thanks for your call. donna on twitter posts -- and savannah on facebook -- next is a call from yorktown, virginia, mary is an independent. good morning, welcome. caller: good morning, thank you. the women's issues, mitt romney, every candidate has pluses and minuses. to think that he is the evil

person between him and obama, my god, no. until a couple years ago i would never have voted for a republican. but the problem we are having with the democrats is those people out there working for a living are going to lose everything if it is up to obama, because he has this distribution of wealth. as far as women having there contraceptive rights, i don't want to pay for birth control parliament unless it is for health reasons. erectile goes for men's dysfunction medicines. when it comes to women, they want the rights for all the reproductive and having babies, but men don't have any rights when it comes to that. if a woman refuses to have an abortion, he has to pay for the child. you want it every way, but you don't want to give up anything?

i am sorry, but you are not the only person in this world. host: all right, mary. on twitter -- when mitt romney is asked about this question, he frequently cites his wife, who has been more frequently on the campaign trail by herself, she had an interview this week with a radio station. let's listen. [audio clip] i guess we better on zip him and let out the real mitt romney. he's funny, engaging, he is witty, always playing jokes. when i met him when i was a teenager, he was the life of the party. you have to know, he is a very serious person and a very accomplished person. i'd think most of the time people see him in a debate setting or something else. host: a columnist tictabopickedp

on and romney -- ann romney using the term "unzipped." next, miami, florida, celia, a democrat. good morning. caller: the republicans are a bunch of hypocrites, due to the fact they say government is overreaching, but if they want to tell and when she can have a baby. and they talk about the men have to pay for it. no. women work. if we get in trouble, we know how to take care of our own business. the women that the men tell them everything to do and they have to do everything, yes, they have to rely on a man to pay for their abortions and their children.

we should have a say so because we contribute. if the women vote for republicans, they will put us back 50 years, because they think that we are less than what they used to consider the black people. as far as our president, he brought us back from the brink of almost disaster. the republican party wants to take our money and give it to big business and give it to the rich and the poor would not have anything in. where do you think that would leave the country? do you think that poor people will lie down and give our money in taxes while the rich are constantly not wanting to help anything? really? host: carole, a republican in colorado, welcome to the discussion. caller: yes, i am a republican, but i do think i would like to make a correction.

no church is being forced to pay for anybody's control. women pay more for their premiums and always have and they get less. that really upsets me that they cannot get their birth control on these premiums that they pay. i am a cancer survivor,. i had a heck of a time getting health care. viewst want religious pushed on me. the churches don't pay taxes. want to pay politics,pay t they should pay taxes. it bothers me how republicans view women. host: the gop party chief, we will play a clip. why does the caterpillar comment bother you? caller: it is like not taking us seriously. comparing us to caterpillar's.

our opinions and our views about our health care, comparing that to caterpillars. it is their choice of words. it shows their attitude about women. all that stuff that we fought for, like equal work. i am over 60. i have daughters and granddaughters now. i'm willing to fight for this. host: let's listen to the head of the party. he was giving an interview and was asked about the gender gap question. let's listen. [audio clip] >> if they said republics had a war on caterpillars, then we would have a war on caterpillars. host: debbie wasserman schultz, the head of the democratic party

immediately pounced on his remarks and posted this on twitter -- also we can show you david axelrod. he also tweeted about this -- lots of voice is getting involved in this debate over women have a particular view that might affect the outcome of the election this year. we are listening to you this morning. next up is texas. this is cheryl, a democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for having me. i would like to say one or two things. i thing most women have made up their mind as to who they are going to vote for. but i want to say that obama has done a lot for the country.

he has gotten rid of these characters pipa started the war. characters that started the war. george bush put us in a dangerous situation starting those wars. the money that was spent should be to take care of the american people now. i believe obama deserves another four years. i don't trust the republican party because i am from texas, but i'm a democrat. i really feel that the republicans are trampling on women's rights and putting us back another 50 years. that's all i have to say. thank you. host:pam thanks for: is watching us from detroit, in the penn line. good morning. are you there? we will move on to new jersey, colleen, republican. caller: good morning.

i just want to say thank you to our troops. we owe our freedom to them every day. today is the eighth anniversary of a mother's child who was killed in ramadi, iraq. his name is j.t. i thank him every day for my being able to make this phone call, and they're serving during this holiday season. god bless our troops. as a child in the 1970's i sat in the car with my mother and my mother was newly widowed. she was 34 years old left with seven children all under the age of 15. she was left off pretty comfortable. her mortgage was paid off and we were not poor, but we were not rich. we also had seven children and if she had only been back into the workforce about four years at that time it when my dad passed away.

so i sat in the car with her for hours as we waited on bass. i watched her by 1 gallon of milk and a big box of carnation milk to get 6 gallons out of that 1 gallon of milk because of inflation,. then i grew up and transport and we are now in economy and the real war on women is no jobs, no homes, food stamps, $5 gas aices, and i don't care about dollar birth control or $9 birth control when i can go to target and buy it myself. the real war on women is not being able to put food on the table and afford to drive to work or even have a job. that is where i blame all the democrats. host: thanks for your call. we showed you debbie wasserman

about the gender gap. she also organized event last night in philadelphia with a local congresswoman, alison shorts. here is the press release -- also, the white house today is having a forum on women and the economy. c-span cameras will be there. valerie jarrett will be among the speakers. and a full day of discussions about women and how they are affected by the economy. yesterday there was a question of the white house spokesman jay carney on this women's conference. let's listen. [audio clip] there's a pretty obvious

political strategy from chicago to exploit the gender gaps that you have. it's a lot of public polls that women support the president over mitt romney or any other republican against him. why are you using the white house on friday to stage an event that clearly has political implications? >> you are saying anything that has to do with women has political -- so anything that has to do with growing economy, because i think any political analyst with say a stronger recovery would be good for the president politically or anything that has to do with job creation if it is inherently political because more jobs would be good for the president. >> one and have a men's conference on the economy? >> stay tuned. host: the president will be speaking at that white house forum on women and the economy. here is one of the stories about that. back to twitter with jan --

and on facebook -- next is livingston, new jersey. good morning to diana, a democrat, you are on the air. caller: i see the differences between the democrats and republicans as far as being supportive of women. one of the first things that president obama did was to pass the lilly ledbetter action and offer the fair credit reporting act, and health care reform, because our country is in trouble. as far as the people that are concerned about the deficit, if you are so concerned, then why do you want to a give of the ,eople who don't need the money but you are willing to give them all these tax breaks, if you are worried about? the about why is the republican party fighting president obama at

every step of the way when he agreed for every $10 -- for every dollar in spending, to do $10 in tax reform increase -- to reduce the tax spending? he tried to address the deficit spending. the only thing is he does it in a more fair way and not try to further break the middle class. as the wife of a 55-year-old union construction worker, it falls on the women to go out and support the family. we become the head of household. yet they are proposing to take away and car right to control our own bodies so we can go out and get a good job, like that woman who testified before congress. she was a law student. imagine trying to finish law school and become pregnant. it would hold back women. this has given us freedom to go out and attain what we want, to be the judges, lawyers,

president, anything we want. to take our reproductive right away would set us back 50 years. i don't see where the republican women are coming from. host: thanks so much. theresa, similar to diana, posted this on twitter -- the washington post also writes about this. here's the headline -- story.om ro's it has a lot of statistics in the article. women and caterpillars in

this article. next is new orleans, louisiana. this is angela, an independent. good morning. caller: good morning, susan. first, i want to say the primary problem as far as president obama and the united states is our congress. everything he has tried to put forth has been blocked by our congress. the second thing is i am an independent because the -- inats do not have sa congress. third, i don't understand why they are trying to control women's reproductive rights when there is much more extenuating circumstances such as people needing jobs, people needing help care, the elderly have to decide whether they want to eat or by their medication or even get the necessities of life that

they need to remain independent out here. everybody is talking as though they're all rich. let me correct myself, only 2% of the population in this country can afford to just walk out their door, get in their car, by $5 gas, buy the necessities they need without taking that money from somewhere else in their household. but for anyone to say that romney will fix this problem, romney cannot fix anything without the help of the congress. the same thing occurred with president obama. he could not fix anything without the help of congress. and for us to sit here blindly and believe everything that the republicans are telling us that they are going to be able to do if they could have done it, they would have done it the eight years bush was in office.

host: thank you. good morning, carrying, welcome to the discussion. caller: good morning, thanks for taking my call. i'm calling about the political football that's been going on. if i was born in 1931. i have worked in religious groups and politics throughout my lifetime, because i am a true american. i believed in our flag -- i believe in flying our flag. this political football should not be there. you cannot have a baby alone. it's time this political football was put somewhere else where it belongs. most of these organizations are run by men. menink it's time -- these are husbands and sons and brothers. don't they care about us? how come i'm only hearing from

women today? maag the man should get up and say i am for you because you are my wife, or my mother. host: in fairness, we have restricted it to women this morning. caller: 0, i see. i did not know that, because i was busy doing my bills and trying to figure out where television and cable is taking us, because i am a clicker. i happened to listen to one line from that fellow that had the meltdown. i was shocked at what he said. i think the show is called "friends." i may get rid of all television, although i like your channel. it gives us an outlet to speak our minds. i will tell you . this is what our children are subject to a day after day. this is the line he said,

charlie sheen sitting there. he said, "she punched me in my nuts and knocked them up to my ribs." who is writing that the garbage for our children? i believe our children are upset because we have no good leaders. facebook --o aw next is hampton, virginia. this is robin, an independent.

go ahead, please. caller: i'm calling in reference to the subject du have today in reference to women. men, i don't know if they understand, but mentioned love all women. i'm trying to find out something else. a phone line have for voters that don't belong to and the three groups you have? host: thank you. let me go back to the caller who criticize us for not showing the crowds at the president's events. you can go to c-span video library. everything we ever cover is recorded there, for the past 30 years. just to show her that when we cover events with the president, this is a little bit of what it looks like. if we could show that on the screen -- it's taking a minute to punch that up.

we will listen to dallas, texas. kathy is a democrat there. caller: good morning, susan. i hope that you allow me as much time -- host: please make your comment. caller: these women saying they want the republicans and a lot of people calling in and saying they can pay $8 for a control. rick perry decided in texas not to fund planned parenthood. that affects a lot of young women. $26 or $36 for birth control for a month. not only that. women are being discriminated against, because our insurance does not cover birth control. i worked for the department of defense and i'm retired, so my insurance is paid, but millions of women out there don't have

insurance. it is so expensive. and many are making minimum wage. i don't understand how they can say they want the republicans, when the republicans wilwant to cut health care and different stuff like that. that is hurting all the people who are trying to make it. all of us are having a tough time. getting $16 a month with food stamps and everybody is always talking about entitlements. social security is what you have earned. if it's not an entitlement. for all of those women that want to be republicans calling on your show saying they need jobs. when you don't have a job, you need something to help you along until you get a job. if they are fighting against their own interest. that is foolish. host: next, sandra, independent from ann arbor, michigan

. that will be the last call. caller: >> thanks for taking my call. i have been listening to all the ladies calling. . i am i am going to go for obama. i would like to ask all the republican ladies, in 2010 we had a wave of republicans coming in and we saw what happens in wisconsin. now they have buyer's remorse. i would like them to think about their own self-interest. what would they really liked to have in the united states? we are here together. 1% or 99%.just we are together. you have to look at all the bills being passed for women. women should take a look at what is going on around you.

the democrats are trying to do things in our best interest. unemployment is not an entitlement. that is taken out of your check and that is put aside. i'm not sure what they mean by entitlements. you are paying for that. host: cthank you. it's nice to hear from women this morning on the question about the parties and the gender gap. we will take a break. when we come back, the phone lines are open for all of our callers as is our twitter page. if we will have the co-authors of the electronic book looking at the inside of the mechanics of the campaign. mike allen and evan thomas will be with us. first, yesterday with taxis in upon us, the irs commissioner was at the national press club talking about some of the challenges for the irs and for taxpayers. let's listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

where is one of our real jobs that we take very seriously is to make sure that as americans wrestle with a complex tax code, that it is as seamless as possible for them. so in many ways we speak for the american people just trying to get their taxes filed well. unfortunately congress has gotten in the habit in the last several years of passing tax and a decision very late. a lot of that is legislation that is already expired. this year, there's three different things happening. 2001 andax cuts from 2003 are set to expire at the end of this year. the payroll tax-cut is set to expire at the end of this year. the most important and complicated issue is there's a whole bunch of tax cuts that expired several months ago and are alalready expired, including

the amt and things got extenders, which includes deductions school teachers take for buying supplies for their classroom. those have expired already. if congress does not act until late in the year next year, say after the elections, we will have a real risk in the system. and we may have to do what we had to do two years ago, which is delayed the opening of filing season for a number of people. if congress cannot act by the end of the year, and even starts to think about retroactive legislation and things like the amt, which have already expired, you could have a real disaster if in the filing fees and where there is total confusion, where some people are falling under one law and others under another. it is an issue we are tracking very closely and are quite concerned about and we are

hopeful the legislation will pass sooner rather than later. >> "washington journal" continues. host: this is the cover of a print version of a new book, the second installment. time-honored paternalistic political tradition cover the mechanics of a campaign, something that began in the 1960's. new technology, digital technology being employed to bring it to our computers even as the campaign is unfolding. mike allen does the political playbook each morning. thanks for being with us. guest: good morning. host: i have not had time to read your playbook this morning. what is the lead? guest: a great day for the republican party across the front page. a triple crown. there's a great story for republicans.

i heard you talking about the stores. on the front pages, if you are republican, stories for them. and the number one vice presidential pick for mitt romney should be paul ryan, says wilcox. that will kick off a lot of discussion. is number two is the louisiana governor bobby jindal. and maggie thinks that senator robb portman of ohio is the most likely. second most likely, tim pawlenty, a former minnesota governor and presidential candidate. host: two stories that mike allen was talking about in the new york times -- so, there's a plus and minus on

the fund-raising side for the two parties this morning. evan thomas is the co-author of this book and is at the table here with us in washington, d.c. let's talk about the pluses and minuses of writing a book while the campaign is unfolding in front of view. -- you. guest: it's hard. teddy white in 1960 introduced the genre of getting behind the scenes. his book came out more than a year after the campaign. newsweek picked up the tradition. every a full your years newsweek puts a special team into the field and it is $1 million for one story that would appear in the day after the election. the deal was you would tell us your secrets if you are in the campaign and we will not print the outcome until the votes are cast, the day after the

election. what mike and i are trying to do is harder. we are trying to do in real time, because everybody is on the internet, everybody is in a moment. we are able to do this reasonably well because mike has great access. a divided talked to mike. but it is a lot trickier because it's hard to get everybody talking about their innermost secrets before the votes are cast. readers can judge for themselves. but i think we are getting inside. it is the first rough draft of history. there will be others. it is certainly a fun read because it's very entertaining. host: therein lies a critique of some of your work, mike, the fact that those who talk to you , are talking to you as un sourced, meaning they will not allow their names to be printed. what is the response? guest: we push people to go on

the record. the people who will, are named. if people are named, almost by definition, what they're saying is spin. we want the people talking honestly and candidly. they will not do that on the record in real time or any time. so we describe people as specifically as they can, their roles and former roles. and we quote the people that are close who can give us something we believe is true and is congruent with what we learn elsewhere. there are plenty of people around campaigns who will yap. we only use them if what they say, if we think what they

say is true. if you add up two and two, you should get four, not five. host: what time period is focused on here? guest: basically the winter. we do a little in the fall. it goes from iowa through louisiana. we did not get tuesday night, because the book came out on tuesday, but pretty close to the moment to the louisiana primary. host: it is primarily focused on mitt romney. rick santorum and has a big part. you're about mr. gingrich and ron paul to some degree. it seems you are telling the story about the man who is likely to become the gop nominee. is that correct? guest: yes. we started reporting on this a

long time ago, so we could not be sure. but the arrows clearly pointed to it being romney. he was the establishment candidate. it was his to lose. we did the best we could to get inside his operation. we spent a lot of time with people close to him, including family members. we did get a lot of access. there are layers and layers and layers. we may find out later that will that we did not get everything, but we got a locked. host: what is the portrait the readers will learn of romney that might be a little different from the candidate they see on the campaign trail on the tv set? guest: what we tried to do in the book that is published by random house, conceived and edited by john meacham at newsweek, what we tried to do was show how the campaign is trying to portray him and also

reveal their frustration in how he is coming off. what we heard time and again is people who really knew mitt romney did not feel like he was being portrayed the way they knew him. they admit that is partly the fault of the campaign and partly his fault and they think it's partly the fault of the press. his oldest son said that his dad has always been sort of a mr. fix it. he would come over to visit and would want to talk about the water heater needed fixing, or something needing to be done in the yard. the next time he would come back, he would be there with a pickup truck, would be trying to what the patriots game. that's a big part of the message for the campaign, someone who fixed the salt lake city olympics, helped to improve the massachusetts government, and could help to fix the country. we also see behind-the-scenes a

fastidious side of mitt romney. you and i walk into a gym and wind down the equipment when we are done, but we sort of assumed the person who went before us had the same citizenship to do the same thing. not mitt romney. someone saw him at the mesa the marriott hotel in arizona. he walks into the gym and before he uses the equipment, and he went down. uses almost a whole pack of wipes. and then again when he was done. when his on his bus, to stay healthy, he makes his own. butter and honey sandwiches. when he's done, he takes the bread and cleans the knife so you don't have to youit. have to wash it.

host: one has to sympathize with politicians during cold and flu season when having to shake hands. guest: i do agree with politicians. one thing we want to get through in the book is these are real people, human beings. they are always sliming one another. they have laws. they're not often as bad as we think they are. i hope that we have humanized romney a little. he is really bad at retail politics. but that does not mean he is a bad person. some of the things that make him a good person actually get in the way of him being a politician. we try to get add to that through his family members, the people that observe him. he is actually a good boss, which gets lost in the shuffle. so this is an important thing. in 2008 during the clinton campaign, that was a mess.

that told you something about what kind of president he would be. you cannot run your own campaign, how are you going to run the white house? the romney campaign, there are not leaks and there's no backsliding you often see in campaigns. that comes from the top. that's because romney is a good boss. wherever else you say about him, the people that work for him seem to like him. host: please ask him if there's a comment or is it a catchy title? guest: there are lots of things you can extend the metaphor. there is lots of cleaning up the elephants. we are having fun with it. it's a light thing. host: steve is on in wisconsin. you are on for our two guests. caller: i hope the next one

would be called "the circus that is obama: how he can be worried about a couple of handful of rich white women instead of worrying about the millions that are laid off, how recould worry about all the millions of dollars that he gets from the environmentalists instead of putting in a pipeline. how he can worry about college woman that goes to $48,000 a year school and not worry about all the women that can't afford food, all of this because of his policies of spend, spend, spend. so let's put more money so everything costs more and more people get laid off. he's a joke. he can't -- he's got to throw things other ways so nobody can look at his policies. he's the ring master of the circus. get your mind off the real things. look at the --

host: let me jump in at this point. we get the sentiment of your comments. where would you pick up the story of the obama re-election? guest: obviously, there is a section on the obama folks getting ready, gearing up. in our next installment, which will come out about the time of the convention, there's going to be a lot of obama because we'll turn to the general election really for the next two ones. there will be one that comes the day after the election. the readers will get a lot of obama. so far it's been republicans. our opinion will change. host: mike allen. guest: not only hear about president obama in the next book. one of the big advantages of the democratic campaign is that they've been able to build this amazing machine. sort of with the garage door closed, while the republicans were fighting their race, the folks in chicago, 300-plus, are already building up the obama

machine. we talk about here in the book how mitt romney has fewer offices in a single state -- excuse me -- mitt romney has fewer offices in the few country than obama has in a lot of states. michigan, florida, ohio, rit romney has already geared up. one has a story this morning how he went to visit the former romney office in new hampshire which is a swingish state in the top 10 or 12, probably top 10, and the romney office in new hampshire is closed with a for lease sign while the obama one has a couple offices. they've done events in 10 counties. so they've had the luxury of building the organization, working their muscle, whereas romney has to hop scotch and

build organizations in these key states. host: that for lease sign would provide an interesting photographic image for the campaign at this point. let's use this piece of video. this is a story you tell in the installment of your book. when governor romney was questioned about his tax return. let's listen. >> i look at what has been done in campaigns in the past with senator mccain and president george w. bush and others. they tended to release tax records in april, tax season. i hadn't plan to release any tax records because the law requires us to release all of our assets, all the things we own. that i already released. it's a pretty full disclosure. you know, if that's been tradition, i'm not opposed to doing that. time will tell. i anticipate that most likely i'm going to get asked to do that around the april time period. i'll keep that open. host: mike allen, why is this clip of interest and how does it tell a story about your reporting in this book?

guest: it shows that governor romney at that point didn't have a clear, simple, convincing, linear answer to the question of your tax returns. and evan thomas and i found as we dug in inside the circus, as we got ready to do this second edition for random house, that there was a real split among the advisors to governor romney and there were some people who wanted to put out the tax returns sooner, who could see this problem coming and as your viewers, listeners will return, mitt romney paid a real price for this in south carolina where he lost to newt gingrich. because based on this clip it was part of what made people think he was disconnected from them, that somehow there was something going on that they weren't seeing. eventually he, of course, right after south carolina decided to put the tax returns out. but how to do that, when to do that was one of the biggest fights within the romney

campaign. and evan has a very interesting point and insight into why the candidate himself was reluctant to do it from the start. guest: well, you know, they had a problem coming in which was they thought be authentic and they weren't focused on the rich man problem. they were focused on the authenticity problem. remember, he'd been -- you're a flip-flop. they said, be authentic. embrace your riches, embrace your money. he didn't think, oh, my god, i am going to be attacked as a rich man. i am a rich man. i better be who i am. that is his state of mind going into this and it takes him a while getting around that curve. stuart steven, this chief strategist, said money could be a problem. you know, the family members, the others around him are always protectively. it's a private thing. rich people often don't like talking about their money. it's kind of an old new england

thing. you shouldn't talk about money. so it made him look distant and remote. it's not so hard to understand if you think about it in human terms, but it was a big mistake because romney had been trying to project, i am mr. fix it, i am going to work the economy. that worked reasonably well. not comply leet but reasonably well in the fall. then in january all of the sudden the focus is romney the rich man, romney, the private equity buccaneer, you know, school capitalist scourge and the picture changes in a way that really, really hurt romney. host: well, this story on the romney tax returns continues to percolate. here is an item in the "washington post." obama calls on romney to release more tax returns. and president obama and his top aides took aim on mitt romney calling on the likely republican presidential nominee questioning whether he used loopholes on publicly

disclosing more information about his wealth. here's the fuel news story from this on "the washington post". the details. guest: the issued flaired up in january. it subsided but you can bet the democrats are going to come back hard against it. i mean, you draw a contrast. obama came from nothing. relatively speaking. from a pretty modest background. romney comes from wealth. not huge wealth. like to say, he's a self-made man. in many ways he is. you can be sure the democrats will zero in on this and if there's any suggestion that romney is hiding his wealth, the democrats will make hay. host: go ahead, mike allen. guest: excuse me. i was just going to say the reaction to this washington post post piece was a real --

"washington post" piece was showing the battle is going to unfold in the weeks ahead. you know, as you point out this wasn't in "the washington post" print edition until this morning but it was posted yesterday. and the obama campaign already had a quite extensive response to it. they had tweets from the campaign manager, jim mecina, and from the official@-- official @barackobama. very opportunistic, unfair campaigns going at him. host: one asks evan thomas, what are the sales like for the book and then the next is, enjoy the sales. guest: it's good.

the first one got up i think in the top five or something of ebooks. i don't know what the overall sales . for ebooks it's up there and i think that's happening in this case. mike, do you have anything more recent on this? guest: yeah. what we're finding in this crazy news cyclone, as we call it, where there's five, 10 stories a day which is great for politico, but what we're finding is people like the opportunity to hit pause, to see where we've been, where we're going. partly why it's popular with readers, and one of the reasons this has become one of the fastest selling political ebooblings ever is it's de-- ebooks ever is because it's people immersed in this. it's people who are catching up, just tuning in. if you look back at previews, campaign cycles -- and i'd love to get evan's view of this -- but as you look back to previous races, you see when

someone becomes the official nominee, there's a big swath of people who tune in, who haven't really been paying attention to him who all of a sudden want to know about him. and so this is a real advantage for mitt romney that he has something that none of us have in our everyday life and that is he has a second chance to make a first impression. but it's also good if you run a political website or have a political ebook because just when people want to know about him, we're happy to help. on i tunes, on kindle or the nook. guest: couple things here. people -- the insiders follow all this but a lot of people don't. fascinating to me that democrats are doing some research. there's a school of thought that this campaign is going to be decided particularly by middle-class, lower middle class, female voters in swing states, particularly the midwest, ohio, pennsylvania. the whole campaign's going to turn like 50,000 voters.

so the democrats did some focus groups and they showed pictures of mitt romney. half the female they showed a picture to didn't know who he is. we are following this. the country doesn't get into it. this is a chance for people to get in it. we're so much in the moment now. so instantaneous. you know, mike's playbook leading the way. it's a pretty interesting story. this gives us a chance to step back and tell the story. people just love stories. and political campaign is an odyssey and we tell it that way and it's -- even if you think you know it all, you'd ble surprised going back seeing what a story there is there. host: chicago's up next. democrat there and you're on beverly. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: we're well. caller: ok. i want to get at your guests

that's sitting in the studio and then i want to get to mike allen, especially mike allen. in guy sitting in your studio is bragging about how good mitt romney good. he's a mr. fix it ands he's so brilliant. this man has been running for five years to be president. yet, every day he comes on with a different script. somebody has to tell him how to walk, talk, eat, sleep. to me that's not a leader. and if he knew so much, why didn't he know that all he had to do was work with the car company a little bit or say the car companies need something. instead he said, let it go bankrupt. how smart is that and he's such a businessman? i want to get to mike allen. i see him on "morning joe" and you are like a kid. you can't wait to tell bad news about the president. i wonder how good -- i never heard a whole lot of you guys until this president stepped foot. he created a lot of guys for you guys.

you got talk shows now. you're writing books. you got people becoming millionaires off the back of this president. you all should want president obama to stay in office because without him i don't know where you all would be. but you all have a beautiful day. thank you. host: well, mike allen, go ahead. >> yeah. thank you, beverly. you have a beautiful day, too. thank you for your passion, and i especially was interested in your point about the car companies because that unquestionably is going to be a huge issue. if you talk to obama campaign folks, the health of the auto industry, especially michigan, ohio, those rust belt places, even indiana where the president won last time, unlikely to win there this time, but they have a bunch of parts suppliers there. he coined the line, g.m. is alive and osama bin laden is dead. it's not a bad way to sum up

the president's record. guest: one thing we're trying to do, talking about romney, i said this earlier but i think it bears repeating. in these campaigns, candidates form a character. the negative ads do that for sure. and also we do it in the press. we make these people into stick figures as figures of ridicule as kind of a joke. one of the things that mike and i are trying to do is make them actually human beings, real people. so, yes, romney is a terrible candidate and you can argue about the substance of his policies, but he is a real person. and like all real people, he's not neither entirely good nor entirely bad. he has strengths and weaknesses. my point is sometimes his strength in all this caricaturing has good looks. obama we show as an actual

human being that has strengths and weaknesses. host: one of the story is "the wall street journal" on how formerly white house staffer now running a pac for the president is not reaching his money goals. jack asks, ask the writers about pac money, especially anticipated romney versus obama spending, what are the numbers? >> jack, that's a great country and superpacs are turning into a bigger story in this election than we might have asked. you talk about priorities u.s.a. and priorities u.s.a. action which was a democratic group started by bill burton and shawn sweeney who both worked in president obama's white house. their mission was to be on the democratic side. what american crossroads and crossroads g.p.s., which were started by karl rove and others on the republican side. the numbers are astounding. crossroads, crossroads g.p.s. between them plan to raise $240

to $300 million this year. now it will go in the senate races. democrats would love to have that much on the other side. the story in "the wall street journal" looks at how much slower their fundraising has started then they expected. they expect to get money from unions. and above evan's view of this, and he can maybe put in a little historical context, but money in a presidential campaign helps mainly with organizing. certainly there's going to be a lot of tv advertising. but in a presidential campaign, so many people know so much about the two candidates that it's unlikely to turn on money. what money can do is it can help you build an organization in a state that you might want to put in play or a state in a might be in trouble. i don't think in the end we're going to say that one of these guys lost because he didn't have enough hundreds of

millions. guest: i think that's right. we pay a lot of attention to money because the press likes the horserace and money is a measurement of horserace. who's got more money? in the end of the day in presidential campaigns -- it used to be federally funded and it was equally matched. now those rules have fallen apart and we are back to an arms race. but i would be surprise if money makes a decisive difference this time around. i think these things, as mike said, people know who these people are. i guess i would put an asterisk on this because i don't know about it. the campaigns have become very high tech about data mining and finding voters in order to turn them out. it's possible that that qub very expensive. it's -- it's quite possible that that can be very expensive. i am not so sure about that. money cancels each side out and each side has enough to get their message and their candidate across. host: elise on twitter reminds

us, rick santorum, rush limbaugh. let's use her tweet to start with a new story. this is rick santorum talking about the contraception issue that he brought to the forefront. >> the whole concept of sexual liberation, sexual freedom has had its downside and certainly birth control is part of that with traumatic increase in -- dramatic increase in sexually diseases, dramatic increase in children out of wed lock, more abortions. it's a commentary that i, again, not something that is completely out of the mainstream. the bottom line is there are consequences to the sexual revolution that we are living with in america today. host: for our guests, this is a complex story to tell and our time is short. i am going to ask evan thomas, your book opens with this line about mitt romney's campaign and rick santorum. you said of romney campaign, they didn't see him coming.

that's santorum. at least not in time. so tell us what's important about that story, evan thomas. guest: well, they are great at destroying your opposition by doing negative advertising. believe it or not, right before the iowa caucuses when they're in their campaign room and they ask for the folder on santorum, there isn't one. the romney folks have not -- they just didn't take him seriously. he was that far behind in the polls, that unserious a candidate, they didn't bother to get this great oppo. they regretted that because he became chief rival and created a long campaign fleas been a problem for romney. host: mike allen, as rick santorum battled with mitt romney from state to state, how did that change the messaging of the campaign? guest: well, we saw that governor romney had to spend a lot more money and be a lot more negative in an he would

have liked to. the romney campaign so far, in every big state, has won by being very negative and overwhelming force. you could call it the general colin powell strategy, the -- his war strategy of overwhelming force. that's how mitt romney has won. and the republicans who are saying that, ok, he did what he had to do but now we need a vision from him, we need a big message for him. we need a reason for people to be excited about him, not for them just to be down on rick santorum or newt gingrich and that's a big challenge for the romney campaign in the coming weeks and months. there are several months until the convention at the end of august and they are going to have to come up with that positive message, with that big idea that people can rally around. host: i guess where we're going with the question, not just the mechanics of the campaign spending, but he didn't talk

about the economy. did rick santorum change that focus? guest: there was conventional wisdom when the tea party came, we were going to get rid of social issues which was so important, abortion, get out of that and on with the economy. the thinking was that was what the campaign was going to be about. that was the hope of romney because he wanted to play mr. fix it. the socialists have a way of coming back. people care deeply about them. it's a religious matter for people. they have a way of coming back and it came back somewhat improbably on the issue of contraception. an issue that had been legally resolved a long time ago and yet you had a big national debate about it. on the somewhat complex issue of whether insurance companies can be required to pay for constreapings or whether there's some religious freedom there, so that was the battleground. it came back in a big way and santorum, of course, because he's a true believer and really sincere believer, got on this and drove it.

host: mike allen, let me bring in this morning's news. the santorum campaign huddled, that's the verb, with conservative leaders yesterday with the big pennsylvania primary and four other states coming up on the 24th. what are the questions for the campaign and what might this meeting indicate? >> there were two meetings yesterday between them involving about 25 conservative leaders. we were told it was all wings of the party, fiscal conservatives, social conservatives, tea party. there was one person meeting in virginia. not a lot of people could get there. there was a conference call with santorum. one of the big missions of the santorum campaign is try to get these conservative leaders to try to push newt gingrich to get out. the santorum campaign recognizes any hope they have is contingent not splitting conservative votes with newt gingrich. to answer your question very directly, the big challenge for

the santorum campaign is to decide, do we go ahead, still try to win pennsylvania on april 24 where the polls are trending the wrong way for us? three polls all had rick santorum waning. important poll yesterday had mitt romney ahead. mitt romney is not taking his foot off the gas. "politico" reported yesterday that he's opened an office in the harrisburg area which is the t, the center part of the state. rick santorum's home area, his strength is pittsburgh. mitt romney's folks believes he'll win because of the strength in philly and the philadelphia suburbs. the question is rick santorum going to risk a big loss, a big humiliation in his home state or is it possible that he'll pull the plug on his campaign before april 24 so he can avoid that? they say no way. monday he's hitting the trail again and his wife, karen, his

oldest daughter, 20-year-old daughter, will be doing a separate tour of pennsylvania on their own to try to increase his firepower and really blanket his home state. caller: good morning, thank you. excellent reporter, to be aware who might be sucked in by small facts. during the civil war there was a dynamic. people who were privileged sat on the front and with their picnic baskets watched the battle or the theater, as is often called. and what they found out during that process were -- was that the people who sat up on the hill actually saw and heard more. this is what is happening at this time. karen tummulty, excellent reporter, was called out by a c-span caller, a female who

said don't give me small facts. i'm tired of your small facts. what we need now is women to get involved, to be the new process, which i call bicameralism. use this metaphor that the republicans have put out that caterpillar metaphor and start the process that i would call the beginning of consciousness and the breakdown of the bicameral mind based on a title by julian james. get real. give us the service that we expect and we require of you. and stop feeding each other your small group, small facts out of your picnic basket of political nuggets. host: evan thomas. guest: i agree completely that we need both the forest and the trees. i think the civil war point is

a fascinating -- small facts are facts. we are going to give you the tiles in the mosaic but also what you can do with an ebook like "inside the circus" is step back and see what those tiles are adding up. we don't have the whole wall. we are only at the cron logical halftime of the republican nominating process. we still have the conventions, the debates, the election so there's a lot more to see but we are going to give you small facts. we are going to give you the tiles because that's the only honest way to add them up and see what the walls says or see what the forest is. i agree with you totally, we need to step back and see what's going on as well. guest: i can't improve on that. host: let me take a call there from massachusetts. ed, republican. good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span. you know, this week the media was focusing on the huge gap that romney and the g.o.p. has

with hispanic voters and the gap between women. the media is really missing a story that romney has a 100% gap with ron paul supporters. can mike allen or evan thomas explain to me how romney can chart a clear path to the white house without the votes of ron paul supporters? guest: ed, that is a brilliant point. it is the subject of very high level republican conversation in washington. top republicans are very concerned about not alienating ron paul voters, especially the younger voters. what they say to me, those people shouldn't be obama voters. we shouldn't give them a reason to be. so ron paul has been treated with kid gloves by other reps. he's going to continue to be. there's a very fascinating alliance that we've learned about -- i shouldn't say

alliance because that makes it sounds formal and it is not. there is a fascinating cinergy between the romney and ron paul campaigns. we've noticed and c-span has talked about it on the air the fact that ron paul does not attack romney in the debate and you noticed a little congrewens there. also, we -- congrewans there. also we learned there is a real friendliness between the romneys and the pauls. mr. romney, mrs. paul often sit together at the debate. you see governor romney come out, greet mrs. paul. so i can imagine ron paul working out some sort of deal with the romney campaign for whether he needs planks at the convention, whether he'll get -- certainly get speaking time at the convention. but ed is totally right. the romney campaign is very focused on keeping ron paul voters in the tent and the way they're going to do it, to directly answer your question, is ron paul. they are going to need him out there talking to -- talking about mitt romney. in an interview for our first

book, "the right fights back," ron paul told me that he thought that other people he was running against -- and there were eight of them, i think -- that mitt romney was the most qualified. he said that from the beginning. guest: big picture point back to the crowd watching the battle, i think a big theme of the romney campaign will be freedom. they're looking, they're searching from some overarching vision. liberty and freedom is something that -- and the contrast they're going to try to draw is obama is all about, this is going to be a caricature, but socialism. i don't believe that. obama is all about big government and the republicans are about freedom. that's a message that should appeal to libry tarians and that should help -- libritarianse and that should help. host: last call. sharon. caller: hi, good morning. i just want to ask your guest. they speak about anything in

their book about romney's five sons not serving in the military. that's one question i have. and also about the freedom rights of voting. seems like the republicans wants us to have an i.d. and that's going to be on the ballot in minnesota this fall. but at the same time it's wrong for obama to ask that people buy health insurance. so to me they're one of the same. host: thanks so much. i ask evan thomas with the arc of time and watching this question about military service and candidates in general. as we've moved to the all-volunteer army, how important has this service question been for voters? guest: i think it's really interesting. i think it is important. and one of the sort of sad things in our society is that rich kids, upper middle class

kids, some do go in the service but a lot of them don't and there's a disconnect between the military fighting our wars and privileged kids going to privileged schools who don't. you know, you look at the noms going into rotc it's a tiny number. i don't blame the romney kids for doing this. apparently it's a nice family. they seem like great kids to me. there's a larger point here that well-to-do kids by and large don't go not service. host: i want to close with a contemporary issue. this week the white house and the president's statements about the supreme court and the review of health care. here's "usa today" with a headline "other presidents took on health care before obama." how will the supreme court's final decision only the health care law be to the fall

campaign? guest: it's a great question. unquestionably will reset the table. we can't predict how it's going to unfold. you know, there's a lot of buzz. there's a school of thought that if the health care reform is overturned in whole or in part that this will help the president because it will help motivate his liberal base which has been disappointed with him on some issues. i can tell you that's not how the white house views it. they say 100-1 they'd much rather have be upheld. it's an important part of his legacy. this president wants to be known for what he's done, not just who he is, and also he's a constitutional lawyer. he doesn't want to have a key -- a key provision overturned. in a is why we saw these remarks this week from the president and others trying to work the reps a little bit, trying to make the argument that the court will be seen as political if it overturns it.

now, i'm not sure how much good this did each day we saw the white house walking back a little bit. if it's overturned in july there will be plenty of time to say why. you don't want to alienate the court right now, but -- so i think you're going to hear the president from now on be a little more measured in what he says in sticking with his top point which is where he started, that he thinks it will be upheld, and leave it to others to say that the court would be politicizing itself. host: it is just after 8:30 and we have been waiting for the march unemployment numbers. we don't have time to ask our guests' reaction. here's what the numbers say. the economy added 120,000 jobs in march. unemployment has dropped .1% from 8.3% to 8.2%. let it stand as a fact to that caller who wanted a big picture. thank you to evan thomas and mike allen.

if we wetted people's interest, you can mention how you can get the book. tell us again and how much it costs? guest: thank you so much for having us on. it's $2.99. it's a great bargain. that's the great thing about this ebook format. it's so economical. it's so late breaking. we added things up until one week before it went in the itunes store and you can get it in the itunes store for ipad, i phone, itouch. and you can get it in the kindle and nook. check out "inside the circus." we are so grateful for the excitement around it and thank you, c-span, for your interest in this and your amazing coverage throughout this election season. host: be careful about the offer. might have people -- guest: thank you. host: evan thomas here in washington, d.c. nice to see you again.

guest: thank you, susan. host: well, in our two final segments on this friday morning, different aspects of education. our final one, america by the numbers. we are going to be looking at the question of school bullying. you know over 40 states have added a state legislation, state laws on school bullying. we are going to be looking at the numbers, the incident rates and what it means as a policy question. and our next segment it's about student death. the number tops $1 trillion. and -- student debt. the number tops $1 trillion. possible implications of so many americans holding that debt. we'll be right back. >> tonight on c-span, reporters and photographers who covered the conflicts in syria, afghanistan, libya and egypt. talk about their experiences. and why they keep going back to these war zones. >> i've always said that some of these guys -- i don't know

but you may be the same. you have a reverse personality. when things look good it plooks unimaginable. when things are bad they are called calm. i mean calm. it's really amazing. you watch -- i'm not saying they don't feel fear. they do. if they tell you they don't they're lying. i've seen tyler really scared. they manage it and channel it. when they have to work they just concentrate and they're very, very calm. you have to go and wait two days for a helicopter and they're bouncing off the tents because it's calm. i think that when they're out there in the middle of it -- and i worked side by side with photographers. i don't cover the capitals. i work from the field. when you're out there it can be so busy and intense and in a way it's very self-organizing and you can kind of leave it behind.

you are not in those situations when you're home. when you're home and stuck in traffic, it just -- a guy stuck in traffic. and it's not so bad. >> after that, see a tribute to maryland senator barbara few culls key. she became the longest serving female congress in female history. >> deep in my heart i am still that person from the third congressional district. i am still a fighter and still a reformer. i am still that girl in the blue jumper who went to i.n.d. with the mayor's daughter and i'm still that person who light one little candle than curse the darkness. i want to work with you in this room. let's continue to work together to make change and may the force be with us. [applause] >> and then a tribute to two former senators, howard baker and bob dole and they're honored by the bipartisan

policy center for their combined 100 years of public service. >> it was a great honor and a genuine privilege to serve with each of you, to learn from each of you. i know you wished i learned more, bob, but to learn from each of you. and quite frankly, just simply to know you both. >> reporting on war and conflict and tributes to current senator barbara mikulski and former senators howard baker and bob dole, it's all tonight starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> "washington journal" continues. host: on your screen is mark kantrowitz joining us from pittsburgh, the founder of a group called finaid.org, and he is going to talk to us about student debt. and i want to start by showing some headlines here. this headline from "huffington post" -- and in "politico."

can you give us a quick snapshot on what's happening with student lone debt, where it's trending? >> well, student lone debt hit a couple milestone. it exceeded credit card debt for the first time and now exceeds auto loans and late last year it hit $1 trillion. this makes it clear that it's a macroeconomic factor with the potential to impact the economy. it's about -- the total student a lot payments are about .4% of g.d.p. the practical impact on consumers is that when they have too much student loan debt they delay life cycle events. they delay buying a car, buying a house, getting married, having children, saving for their children's college educations and saving for their own retirement. host: and student loan debt is at a special category with regard to payoff. what are the rules about your

responsibilities towards your debt on student loans? guest: well, there's no significant options for relief. you can't discharge it in bankruptcy. the federal loans have some options like income base repayment and public service loan forgiveness. private student loans do not have those options. host: for our viewers we would like to involve you in this discussion about really the student loans but also adjacent to that is the cost of college educations and the investments that one makes and the payoff in this market for investing in college education. itself a political subject this spring. here's the phone lines for this seg! we divided them by parents, students, administrators and then all others. for parents, 202-737-0001. for students, 202-737-0002. our line for administrators, 202-628-0205. and for all others in the audience, if you don't fall into any of those three groups,

202-628-0184. will you tell us a little bit about your organization, please? guest: well, i publish two websites. fastwed.com and finaid.org. fastaid is -- host: you already told us some of these points. surpassed credit card and auto loan debt in the year 2008. the average student loan is about $25,000 which is up 25% over the past 10 years. and all right. let me dig a little deeper into

the average student loan up 25%. what is the cause of that? guest: well, student loans are driven by the failure of grants to keep pace with increases in college costs. so over the last year, according to a report that's called the grapevine report, states support of public colleges decreased by 7.6%. public colleges then have to make up for the lost revenue by increasing public college tuition. this is a long-term trend that's been building over decades. as far as the nonprofit colleges, they are driven by faculty and staff salaries, by building costs, equipment costs, energy costs and health care costs as well as a multiplier effect from the awarding of need-based student aid. for every $1 of gross tuition

revenue, the college only nets about 63 cents on the dollar because 37 cents goes back to the students in the form of grants. so if they need $1 of net revenue, they actually have to raise tuition by $1.58. host: so when you read critics of federal involvement in the student loan program who say that government-backed loans raise the cost of tuition overall, is that what you just described? guest: to some extent. it's a multiplier effect. it doesn't cause the tuition inflation. it increases the magnitude of it. i don't think anybody rationally believes that a $5,000 pell grant causes a college to have the $50,000 a year tuition bill. host: so next point here. 8-10 loans that are government issued or government guaranteed, will you explain to our audience the major government student loan programs that exist right now? guest: most popular loan program is the stafford loan, a

student loan. it has a fixed rate of 6.8%. there is another version that currentlies that a 3.4% interest rate. on july 1 if congress doesn't act that interest rate will increase back to the original 6.8% interest rate. there's a smaller loan program known as the perkins loan. that's from a revolving loan fund. it's only about $1 billion a year. very small percentage of student loan. and there is a parent loan called the plus loan that is borrowed by parents of undergraduate students and also graduate and professional students on their own. that has a 7.9% fixed interest rate. host: one more point and then we'll get to some calls. on the rising default rate, 2007 to 2009, when you dig into those numbers, the default rate is higher in for-profit institutions as opposed to private colleges. what's the dynamic there?

guest: 60% of the difference in default rates between for-profit colleges and nonprofit colleges is due to the demographics and for-profit colleges tend to enroll a lot more low-income and at-risk students such as students who are single parents, students who sh even if they are technically dependent or functionally independent and 2/3 of the students at for-profit colleges receive the pell grant compared to about a quarter of students at public and nonprofit colleges. and at the most elite colleges only about 10% of the students receive a pell grant. 8.8% -- host: go ahead. guest: the 8.8% -- ok. the 8.8% default rate is the highest since fiscal year 1997, but it isn't as high as it was in the late 1980's and early 1990's when they hit a peak of about 22%. host: so when you -- let me circle back to the macroeconomics of this. the concern you raise is the

effect on the economy of people who are carrying these debt loans, being -- delaying other economic decisions and that having an effect on the economy. that's more of a concern for you than rising default rates and government security of those loans, is that correct? guest: that's correct. and the total student loan payments on the federal loans is about $50 billion to $60 billion a year. that has an impact on the economy. it's just at the edge of macroeconomics, so it's about .4% of g.d.p., but it's enough to have some impact on the economy. i'm more concerned, though, about what's going to happen with the next generation, about a third of bachelor degrees have enough student loan debt to qualify for a 20 to 30-year repayment term which means they won't be saving for their children's college education. they will be paying back their

own loan when their children are in college. they won't be borrowing for their children's college education which means the next generation will have that much more debt which may have a cascading effect. so while we may not be in the bubble now, we certainly are going to start building a bubble in the one to two decades. host: mary on twitter echos that sentiment with this tweet. having a line just for ex-students drowning in debt might crash the phone lines. millstone of debt when starting out is just devastating. let's go to richard from chicago who is a student. good morning. caller: good morning. i am a retiree that's going back to school and just applied for financial aid just to get a certificate in substance abuse training which is 37 hours. and -- hello. host: you have the volume on your tv, it's causing a little loopback. just go ahead. we can hear you fine. caller: ok. i am a retiree.

host: we heard that, sir. caller: and just to get this -- when i planned for financial aid, they gave me -- applied for financial aid, they kept steering me to get a loan. and i'm trying to figure out how -- host: if you had not been steered toward a loan, could you afford the certificate on your own? caller: not on the retiree salary that i make. host: so what's your concern? if it wasance option of getting to and not getting it, what's the issue? caller: what do i got to give up to get this because i need to get back to work. host: i see this. mark kantrowitz. retirees returning and wreck -- racking up student loans in later years. guest: even in about 6% of peopler who 50 years or older still have student loans. about 3% of people who are 60

years or older still have student loans. once you retire you have no new income to pay back that debt so your goal should be to have no debt of any kind. whether student loans, credit cards, auto loans, mortgages by the time you retire. so -- and i would advise him not to borrow and to find another way to pay for that certificate. maybe applying for scholarships or seeing if he can qualify for the pell grant. but under no circumstances should someone who's already retired be borrowing to pay for their education. host: lucy is a parent in mcclain, virginia from the unserbs. good morning. caller: good morning. i appreciate you taking my call. i've been wondering. whenever the federal government gets involved with backing or paying for various goods and services, it seems to me that the costs go way up because i'm just wondering where i can go

to see a graphic representation of the cost of health care, since medicare and medicaid went into effect, and also tuition because it seems to me a college or university knows that the loans are backed by the federal government they can just continue increasing their tuition. and i guess i'm curious how fair it is and a lot of these universities have billions of dollars worth of endowments and i'm just wondering, does anybody ever look into the actual reality of the cost increase and where i might be able to find information about things like that. host: thanks, lucy. mark kantrowitz. guest: well, from 1992 to 2006, student loan limits didn't increase, yet tuition limits continued to increase. during four years of the bush administration, the pell grant didn't inees, yet tuition

continued to increase. and during the american recovery and reinvestment act of 2009, there was a spike in the increase in the pell grant making up for the four years of previous no increases. and yet tuition continued to increase at the -- about the same level as before. so i don't think that the availability of federal student aid causes tuition inflation. it's merely enables the students to pay for the increases in the college costs. so -- in fact, if you look at the percentage of 16 to 24-year-olds who enroll in college, it increased over the past decade or two from about 25% to 41%. it enables students to pay for college despite the increases in college costs. host: on twitter, c-span democrat asked this question. mr. mark kantrowitz, private student loans are at zero risk. in other words, they can't be discharged in bankruptcy

proceedings. you mentioned that earlier. she asks, why do they deserve such protection? guest: i would argue they don't deserve protection. unlike the federal loans where you can get income-based repayment or extended deferments or forebareans or public loan forgiveness, private student loans generally don't have these benefits. there's little difference between a credit card debt and private student loan debt. so i would argue that all should be dischargeable in bankruptcy. there's no real public policy benefit from private student loans being nondischargeable. host: benjamin is a student in new york city and up next. good morning. caller: good morning. can you talk a little why inflation has occurred and tuition has gone up about 400% in the past 30 years and is there any kind of regulatory commission that's addressing this problem? host: benjamin, where are you

going to school? caller: columbia. host: what year are you? caller: graduating. host: over the course of four years, have tuition rates gone up for you? caller: slightly. host: just slightly over the last four years. ok. thank you for your call. mark kantrowitz. guest: well, columbia is an expensive school. a student could get a much less expensive education by going to one of the suny or kuny schools. and going to an in-state school can save a lot of costs. there are things to increase faster than family incomes. family incomes have been relatively stagnant for the past decade and starting salaries have increased only slightly over the past decade while tuition goes up over a decade by anywhere from 60% to 100%. and there's very little that

can be done to stop this without affecting the quality of education. if you were to double class sizes you certainly would cut the cost of instruction, but then each individual student would get less one-on-one time with the faculty members. inherently, teaching, especially at the higher education level, is a labor-intensive process. we have the same average class sizes now as we did 100 years ago. host: american hero on twitter tweets this comment. just because a loan cannot be discharged doesn't mean it will be paid. it's not zero risk. let's take our next call. it's from charlotte, north carolina. ryan is calling and ryan's a parent. you're on the air, ryan. go ahead. caller: yes. i want to talk about what happened with my son which was he had obtained a bachelor's degree and that already carried about $60,000 in debt because

he had two of them. then he turned around and went to grad school and acquired another round, $80,000 in debt and that ended up folets out at like $140,000-some. and basically what it entitled him to do was to get two bachelors and a masters degree. i want to see if your guest has any information about how kids are acquiring more debt now these days because they are going getting these masters degrees and more advanced degrees and how they're faring in the job market compared to those higher degrees they have. host: thanks, ryan. guest: well, unlike undergraduate degrees where you can get a pell grant, graduate degrees, there is no need-based grant program. so especially for students who are getting masters degrees, most of the aid is in the form of loans. a good rule of thumb is your total education debt should not be more than your expected

annual starting salary. if you're faking on more debt -- if you're faking on more debt than your annual income, you'll struggle to repay the loan. if your debt is less than your income, you'll be able to pay back that debt in about 10 years. and i would encourage students before they incur the debt to figure out how they're going to be able to pay it back. it's a lot easier to economize on college debt before than afterwards. host: the reason why students are going back to get more advanced degrees is the economy, correct, lack of fewer job options available? guest: correct. it's a way of hiding out from the job markets. there's countercyclical effect a few afterwards there are substantial increases in college enrollments. much more so than between recession years. host: we're talking to mark kantrowitz who's joining us from pittsburgh. the burgeoning debt load in the

country for college education. there are two stories in papers today related to this. one is from the "washington post," and "the post" reporting a for-profit vocational school closed down this week withheld federal financial aid money meant for students. mark kantrowitz, with all of the for-profit education growing in a society, what kind of controls are there on this system for preventing fraud in financial aid? guest: well, the office of the inspector general does periodic audits and there are program reviews to make sure the money is going where it's supposed to be going. and they do a fairly good job of catching such fraud. there's also a variety of regulations to ensure that the moneys being effectively spent. a new set of rules go into

effect this july. they implement three debt measures. a loan repayment rate. and two types of debt-to-income ratios that if a for-profit college doesn't satisfy these rules, at least one of these measures for three out of four consecutive years, they will lose eligibility for federal student aid. there are also limits on the default rates at individual colleges. a college can't have more than a 25% default rate for three years in a row or 40% in any single year and still receive federal student aid. host: here's a second story. different topic. chancellor asked california community college to hold off on two-tier tuition plan. from los angeles, the chancellor of the california community college system has requested that santa monica college hold off on its plan to start popular courses this summer saying the legality of the program is still in question. question. the request made on wedne