a lot like to recognize the chairman of the committee. >> first of all, i would have to thank you you, mr. denham, for your leadership. not just on this issue, this outrageous matter before us. from the very beginning when i had to select someone to share this subcommittee that oversees public buildings, i think the country was fortunate to have you and your experience of leadership. i think when we met, our first assignment was to pick up -- what we had discussed we would do before you got here. the minority and published this report. this report was basically october, ironically, 2010.

the same time there were spending money on their gsa out lavished convention. this is called the federal government must stop sitting on its assets. it is on-line. i hope to get a chance to read it. the first part starts out with gsa. the abuse of not just millions of dollars in a convention judgment, but billions of dollars in waste. this was our primary. i could not have had a partner like mr. dennis ham -- enham. -- denham. the building next to the post office was taken from 15 years. between that and the u.s. post

office losing $6 billion per year. put this in perspective. i reference this document. this is not an attempt to get an agency under control. they held the first hearing in that empty building. it was 32 degrees outside, 38 degrees inside. the dangers are the gsa bureaucrats with their coats on. we brought into the empty building to try to get them -- again, two blocks away from the white house. a federal building. that's the building we held a hearing in to get it turned around to make it a productive property. the general services administration is our government's landlord. it is appalling to see the

wasteful spending on this conference. mr. denham will outline not just this conference, he will talk about trips to hawaii, atlanta. california, atlanta, georgia, born. -- guam. expends.xpayer's that is just the tip of the iceberg. the billions that are lost, again, by having the federal government's primary landlord agency out of control and not operating as it should. that is what is outrageous. we smelled a rat. we asked for data, because if you look at the budget at the expenditures for the public

buildings commissioner, it went from $2.9 million in 2007 to $9 million. that is what, 8200% increase? so we started asking for data. -- a 2% increase? so, we started asking for data. you heard him say that in every hearing. what we got instead, this is what we got instead, folks. just a few pages of the top numbers. anyone can see now why did not want to disclose what was going on. ms. norton said, and i agree, we have thousands of people who work for the government day in and do a good job. this is not an example most federal employees. we ask a lot.

we will hear from one of them today. she worked on this committee. when you see the time of what took place, you see a timeline of cover-up. a timeline of deceit. a timeline of keeping congress in the dark on what was going on. you see one woman who stood up. this conference was held october 10 in las vegas in -- in las vegas. in november, she requested the office of inspector general look into this matter. our committee has legislative oversight responsibility for public hearings. we coordinated this very well because he has broader jurisdiction of the white house and others that we do not have. you saw yesterday in the timeline that the white house knew about this in june of 2011.

that is great for the president and others to condemn the action in the last week or two. they knew for nearly one year what was going on. and, again, our former staffer not only went to the ig on this, but on other matters. i will submit this list for the record. mr. chairman, without objection. >> without objection. >> you know, it is kind of upsetting in a way. it should be upsetting to the american people that this was all revealed. maybe it would not have been revealed -- is probably could have been swept under the table except for one person who stood up. i want to hear from her today. i hope she feels secure. i hope she realizes that we recognize her patriotism in

stepping forward. again, in revealing what is going on. otherwise, we might not have known. we might have been handed one sheet and said, do not pay attention. i'm not going to do hearings on this. i was pretty saddened by the comments of the majority leader of the u.s. senate. he said, mica needs to get a life. i want to tell him and others that i have a life. it is dedicated to eliminating waste of federal government and bringing business-type common sense practices to gsa or other federal agencies. we were stonewalled. we were delayed. we were not given information. but, the american people need to know that this is just the tip of the iceberg. but they will hear much more

about what is going on and what is being done to reform this agency. mr. denham and i had a discussion last night. how many of you out there, if you have property, would turn it over to the federal government to manage it for you? i ask that question. not very many of you. if ec wasteful overhead and costs that takes place when you're on the taxpayers a dime. -- if you see the wasteful overhead and costs that take place when you're on the taxpayers' dime. >> indifference to the administration's request, at this time i would like to request that mrs. johnson, a pac, and daniels please rise --

peck, and daniels, please rise. do you swear the testimony you're about to provide to the committee is the truth, the old trick, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? we will have two panels today. the first, we invite back to the table the inspector general. >> chairman denham, i would just like to insert, for the record, this comment that mr. neely is not with us today. we requested that he be with us. he has taken the fit on another committee. -- the fifth on another committee. he is not appearing today. i guess the only way we will get

to see him as on a video in a hot tub. but i want to make certain that it is noted in the record that he did not appear. >> mr. miller, chairman deputy administrator, chief financial officer, robert pack -- peck, mr. neely through his attorney refused to appear this morning, and miss lisa daniels the event planner. join us at the table up front. i ask unanimous consent that our witnesses full statement be included into the record without objection, so ordered.

since your written testimony has been made part of this record, the committee would request that you limit your oral testimony to five minutes. as far as this committee today, we'll be joined by the strict five minute rule. we have a lot of questions. it is going to be a very long hearing. i want to make sure we have as many opportunities to cut members' requests as possible. mr. miller, you may proceed. -- to get through members' requests as possible. >> good morning. thank you for inviting me here this morning. to testify about our report. think everyone is familiar with the facts of our report. bouquet. i would simply ask bridget ok. i would simply ask -- ok. i would simply ask that my

written report be in the record. thank you. >> good morning. thank you for inviting me to testify. >> can you pull the microphone up? >> can you hear me? no? how about this? as you all know, i spent 18 years in this committee working with all of you in the bipartisan effort to conduct oversight on a variety of general management issues. on the emphasis with the general services administration. i had the honor of being appointed by president obama to be the administrator at the general services administration. during 18 years that this committee, there were many issues this addressed, but none of like the level of wasteful spending and lack of management associate with the western region conference. as a taxpayer, i share your

anger and disappointment of misconduct. when i first became aware of the excessive spending, i requested that the gsa's office conduct a review of these allegations. i am grateful to mr. miller and his office for covering and reporting these abuses. i believe the inspector general should report an immediate reaction to gsa. i advocate such action. i'm committed to working to restore faith in the agency. not only to members of this committee, but also colleagues and other government agencies. more importantly, the government taxpayer. i look for to answer any questions you may have. >> good morning, chairman denham and members of the subcommittee. in the chief financial officer of the general services administration. i appreciate the opportunity to come before the committee today.

fellow.n the gsa see a -- cfo. i served at the irs for five years cry over saudi financial management and accounting operations for a $12 billion budget and 2.3 trillion dollars in tax revenue. i also have held executive positions with the federal alexian commission. until the acting administrators recent action to centralize oversight financial management, gsa financial management operations were decentralized and managed by economist regional cfo's with no oversight or control by my office. the budget for the western region conference for employer -- approved by employees and a specific region, including those in the regional budget and management provision, commonly

referred to as the cfo. this increase the risk. in my experience, the agency had far more oversight and control. to correct these issues, the acting administrator already took a strong actions by realigning all public buildings services and regional manager of operations under the direct authority of the gsa's cfo. the acting administrator is reviewing and requiring all to be approved by the cfo and has close this pacific rim store at all similar programs. in editions fidget in addition,

i added two processes. first, the cfo is approving to verify payment for the appropriateness of expenditures. compare budget amounts to ensure there within budget. these controls, together with centralization will greatly improve our ability to prevent abuses described in the report. i welcome the opportunity to answer questions. thank you. >> good morning. until earlier this month, a search the gsa. having served in that role proceed from 1995 to 2001. i am deeply troubled and disappointed about what i have learned about the costs associated with the conference

held in october of 2010. there were excessive costs that should never have been incurred. other procedures appeared not to have been followed. while i was not personally involved in planning or approving the conference, they took place within my watch. i am not hear about the responsibility. i am deeply disappointed by what the ig reported. i was removed from the job i love and i offer my personal apology that the gsa acted as they did. the taxpayer deserves better than this. they failed to meet the obligation we all of the american people. but they built to meet the standards i expect from those employed at pbs headquarters.

at the gsa and other agencies, federal employees and managers with whom i might work and inside and outside the government have overwhelmingly been concerned with carrying out their missions in the government rules at the lowest cost possible. i was not involved in planning conferences. as a political appointee, i was not involved in contractors. it was a regionally over -- organized a band. i had nothing to do with its planning i was present for only a portion of the conference before returning to dc. in my many years of the gsa, i attended a number of conferences. from what i personally saw, the

converts as i attended were not extravagant. it was a serious aberration. i questioned the organizers as to the cost of the suite. they tell me that all but rooms were in a government rate, including this room. that my sweet was included the basic room rate. my first morning at the conference, i made a power point presentation to the entire group about national pbs goals and priorities. i attended presentations from the four regions about their projects and performance, and another by the gsa's sustainability goals. that afternoon, i ask the conference organizer to invite a number of employees of their choosing to my room. my intention was to have a meet and greet with employees attending the conference. this pre-dinner reception went from about 6:00 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. since this was my initiative, i

said i would pay personally for beer, wine, and chips. i was told that food would be made available without additional cost per the contract with the hotel. upon returning to d.c., wrote a check for that cost. only within the past few weeks to learn from the gsa inspector general that the food for this reception was apparently invoiced as $1,960. it is not unusual for them to issue a report. the account and that as part of their internal oversight.

until the ig report last year, i was not aware there were planning trips with this conference. number i were until i was recently informed. as i have indicated, it is now clear that much of the expense of the hotel was excessive and unacceptable. therefore, before having the benefit of the final report, i took measures to try to ensure that something like this could happen again i canceled a number of mansell -- national control pbs conferences.

i deeply regret the behavior of the gsa employees involved in this incident and the damage it has caused. i look forward to answering any questions you may have. barb>> as the chairman mentione, mr. neely is not with us today. he has used his constitutional right to plead the fifth amendment and hired a lawyer. nor did he testify yesterday. ms. daniels, you are next to

testify. do you have a lawyer? >> i do not. i do not have a lawyer. >> i would just issue you a word of caution. i've read your testimony. there is a great deal of troubling information on there. i would certainly issue caution today as he testified. ms. dennis, you may proceed. >> good morning. this is my first time at a hearing. i did not prepare a testimony. because i was placed on administrative leave last wednesday. all of my fouls were confiscated. i was directed to turn in all of my government equipment and a sell from to the director of a

chart in fort worth on thursday morning. on thursday evening, my supervisor called me late in the evening and said that i would be receiving a letter from the house of representatives requesting my testimony. as you know, i did not provide 100 copies. i received my letter at 10:30 on friday morning. i am not clear what testimony you are referring to, unless you are referring to interviews that i held with the ig, which i did not sign anything, other than the guarantee warning. without my files or anything, and i was not even sure, since the title of this hearing was "a pattern of mismanagement, excess, and waste," i did not

feel comfortable without my computer files to even be able to provide a testimony to that effect. i'll be happy to answer any questions. >> if you do not have a prepared testimony, we will allow up to five minutes. i was a frontier transfers in the investigative report that the ig did. that is what we have gone through. we got e-mail's as late as last night. there is a great deal of concern with your transcripts. you are not obligated to have an opening statement or obligated to go any further than you already have, but we certainly afford you that right to opt to five minutes. >> i will decline to provide a testimony, but i am happy to answer any questions that i can do. >> thank you. >> i will now recognize each member for an additional five minutes. we will start the first round of questioning. mr. miller, i want to first

start by the better understanding how you get around rules, how you get around executive orders. how when the president issued an executive order, how members of agency may just disregard those orders and figure out a way to get around it. my staff has put together an outline here for me, basically, if you get a large number of people together in this case, 300 people, it gives you a -- -- a reason to have an outside meeting. certainly, he could have a meeting in dimona iowa, modesto, california. the all purposes of these lavish conference is are to go to places like hawaii, las vegas, palm springs, napa, new orleans. that is going to be a good question on why the western regional conference would be to

go to your lens which is not even a western regional conference. -- to go to new orleans, which is not even a western regional conference. and then you go to resort. how much per diem are you supposed to get on a trip? >> the per diem varies from place to place. it is listed on the gsa website as to how much per diem, per day individuals would get. for example, in las vegas, the per diem for breakfast is $12. it is stated that there is a chart per diem. if your question is, why did the have the conference, the western region conference this year, they said they wanted to showcase gsa talent. >> is the per diem cumulative? meaning, if you pay your own way for the entire week, and you get a check at the untied and -- at the end of the week? and is it a lunch, a breakfast,

and a dinner per diem? >> you have to put a voucher in. you'd get repaid the money. it is $71 for the whole day in las vegas. that is for everything. meals and everything. the hotel room was $93. a traveler would come back and submit a voucher. that would be paid back to the traveler. >> so, if you got a free room or a conference committee could then apply for that $93 at the end of the day. >> if you receive a free room, off you should not submit that in the voucher. if you receive a free meal at the conference provided, he should not submit that in the voucher. >> and how about appetizers? >> well, we do not think the appetizers were a corporate at all. we think the appetizers were impermissible expenses. >> how do get around that rule to have appetizers? >> there is a rule that says if

you have an awards ceremony and food is necessary for the performance of the award ceremony, you may have bought food as part of the award ceremony. that was routinely skirted. >> how often were awards given at these conferences? >> i would guess a fairly often. >> once a conference? >> at least. >> every day of the conference? >> i am not sure if they received an award every day. >> what type of awards? >> darr received a number of things. -- date received a number of things. souvenir coins. >> to write off a meal, to have the expense of appetizers for a full meal, whether it is sushi or a long list of other type of appetizers we have to, what type of awards would be given? >> i am not sure that any of those things would be appropriate at an awards

ceremony. the rule is that food has to be necessary for the awards ceremony. not the other way around. you don't give up an award in order to get the food. you're giving an award and you have a ceremony. if incidental food is necessary for the awards ceremony, then it is permissible under the rules. it became kind of a running joke. >> that is how they felt it was justified to get around the administration's rule of not having food, they got around it by having an award ceremony at every conference or every day of the conference. >> many times. in region 9, witnesses told us that it became a running joke with the region nine regional commissioner. even in staff meetings he would say, we're going to have a meeting in another location and we're going to have food, so we have to do what? and his senior staff said to us, give out awards.

so, according to witnesses that we have interviewed, it was a running joke in region 9 that in order to get food, you had to give out awards. many of these awards were silly awards. one of our witnesses characterized them as fake awards and jackass awards -- things of that nature. getting back to the western region conference, they gave out awards for theatrical performances. we do not consider that a proper award. the award has to be for contributions to the work of the agency. >> how might they also get around the lodge and per diem? how would you get a 2200 sq. ft. sweet or several 2200 sq. ft. suites at every conference? how would multiple suites be given when it is only $93? >> well, swedes are provided by

the hotel, sometimes -- suites are provided by the hotel, sometimes as part of the hotel. it will provide an upgraded room as part of the negotiation. they will throw in what they call a can't room if they have a number of rooms -- what the call comped rooms if they have a number of rooms for the conference. >> how, in this case, which you ?ustify two luxury suites it must be a large contract. how to get a contract that large? >> gsa apparently had a large contract with the hotel. sorry, proceed. >> ok. with the large contract with the hotel, the hotel would throw in a room. >> so how do you build up a

large contract? >> gsa had a number of rooms that they were renting from that hotel? -- from that hotel. >> rooms alone would work? >> that catering as well, food. >> how much catering? >> it is detailed in the report. they had reception, light refreshments. by the light, light refreshments are allowed in between sessions at the conference. according to the rules. the report identifies food expenditures on page 9 of the report. we have identified 146,005 $27 of expenditures on food and beverage catering. -- $146,527 of expenditures on food and beverage catering. >> if you have luxury suites,

which bring your entire family and friends? how legitimate 21-year-old birthday party for your daughter? how would you have all these various friends and familiy gatherings on these trips? >> they would have to be a gift from the hotel. the hotel would provide an upgraded room imbibeor suite. if you brigid'sor a suite. -- or a suite. >> if you set up a contract and said, our per diem rate is $93 per room. 7 --e're going to spend several hundred thousand dollars and we're going to extend our stay on the front and back end. by the way, we would like 2200 sq. ft. rooms so we can bring our family and friends and our party on the weekend. is that possible?

>> not under the regulations. not under the rules. >> is it possible under what you've seen in your investigation. >> yes. yes, in fact, i think that does describe what happened. what you're talking about is essentially inappropriate relationships with vendors. an inappropriate relationship with the hotel would be to go to the hotel and ask for favors that benefit the individuals personally. all of that is improper. it is appropriate to negotiate a good rate for the food, a program food under the rules. but it is inappropriate to negotiate with vendors for personal benefits. you're not allowed to use your office for personal gain. >> nor can you accept? >> correct.

>> i'm out of time during our to go into this deeper, but this time all recognize ranking member. >> think you mr. chairman. mr. miller, what the chairman has just described, if someone wanted to know whether or not what they were doing was within the rules, under the present structure who would they turn to? >> is that directed towards me? >> to you or miss brita. if someone wanted to know, is this within the rules, who would they go to to find out? >> the aboriginal council in

region 9. regional council was consulted at least once about the session -- they have a regional council in region 9. >> what did they say? >> i believe the regional council provided in opinion that the request was not in writing -- an opinion that the request is not in writing. if you can hold on a minute. bbc they provided and in written opinion about bicycles. -- they provided and in written -- unwritten report about bicycles. asked about the bicycle's doesn't -- because it would involve the disposal of federal policy -- property.

>> mr. neely is not here. he has the final authority on the matter, for example, just described, by the chairman. or was there someone above him who had some authority and to whom he reported on matters of the kind that have just been described? >> can i clarify her point? they asked for legal opinion on the bicycles, correct? >> yes, they did. >> and what was the legal opinion? >> if the charity maintained the bicycles, it would not be a disposal of federal property. >> was that in writing? >> no. >> is normally in writing? >> yes, it is. he requested it not be in writing to avoid any obligation. >> is that in writing? >> i believe we have some evidence of that. i'm not sure if it is a direct writing or not.

>> did they try to cover it up after the made the request? >> he requested that not be in writing. >> so the council himself did not want his opinion in writing. i am trying to establish, who was the operating officer who was in charge of this conference. and whether he, in fact, had the report of what happened in the conference, or had to ask for any permission, or whether he was an island unto himself who had control and we did not vote for the matters we just heard about. >> what we found in our investigation was that the regional commissioner essentially controlled everything and that he was the final say so. he was the acting administrator

at the time. there was little oversight or supervision by central office. as a practical matter, and the regional commissioner decided. >> i'm going to have questions about the structure of gsa in this regard. i like to ask a question. there are many who have come to your defense. i have known you in this administration. it is unusual for people to publicly speak well of someone who has had -- who has encountered would you have. been discharged by the president. to understand why the president took up the top of the agency? was that the right thing to do and the fair thing to do? >> i understand why he did it. as i said in my testimony, it

was on my watch. i was brought up in a military family. i subscribe to the axiom that someone is in charge of everything there organization fails to do. >> i just want it on record, that the way in which, normally in this country, it does not operate the way it does. were the top resigns -- where the top resigns, somehow, in our country, often. but they're not held accountable. i can understand the feeling before you. but in light of how structures should be structured in this country, i understand your response. there is a question about the letter of reprimand for mr. neely.

we just heard that he was essentially an island unto himself. it became known. you believed he deserved only a letter of reprimand. he may be facing termination. he may be facing criminal charges. what made you believe that is one of the licensed forms of penalty should, given his large responsibility, retail administrator and commissioner, at that a letter of reprimand was all that should take place here? especially when you say you understand what the president would understand -- what a fire you and other top officials because of the responsibility the top has for what goes on with those charged to him? >> mr. peck, i will allow you to

answer, but i will ask you to be brief. >> i believe it was their proper response at that time. the investigation was ongoing. was under my impression. they're asking us not to take disciplinary action against anyone involved in this. >> i thought it said, do not take any personal action? that is a personal action, isn't it? >> the letter? >> i am not sure the letter was actually sent. there is a great deal of conversation about what we could and could not do at that time, given what we knew about mr. neely. a lot more facts have come out since about what happened at that conference. >> do you still believe he deserves on a letter of reprimand? >> no. not this one i know now. >> no, at the time. what you knew about the conference, you think deserved no more than a letter of reprimand? >> at the time, we took into

account in his rating. i spoke to him. i spoke to the other regional commissioners about conferences. i took other actions. at that time, given what we knew about what had happened at the conference, particularly with respect to him, and we did not know a lot of other things about travel expenditures. we thought that was an approach irresponsive that time. >> thank you. mica, a- charimaiairmain consulting with democrats in a bipartisan fashion, we have made a determination that miss daniels, after receiving transcript of the last 48 hours, it isn't our judgment on a bipartisan level that we will excuse you at this time. i would advise you, as chairman of this committee, you ought to

seek legal counsel. you are dismissed. chairman mica. >> thank you. first of all, an expenditure rises about three and a% for the public buildings commissioner expenditure from $2.9 billion to $9 billion. does that raise any flags to you? a 3 to% increase? -- a 300% increase? >> i am not sure on what number you are referring to. >> the expenditures for the public building commissioners operations. the administrative and personnel costs. does that raise any flags or are

you aware of the request that i have had in our committee. we sent it to david foley in december 7, 2011 to give us a breakdown of the minister of costs. >> i was not aware of that request. i only became aware of as the public building services came close to finalizing its response. >> we have been tried to get this information since last year. if you're the chief financial officer. of course, in my opening statement, i describe what was sent to us and we see why there's not much detail sent to us now. mr. miller, you asked that this conference to place in october of 2010 and november shortly thereafter you asked a review. is that correct? and it looks like a preliminary

briefing was not done until may 2011. all this was not made public until a few weeks ago. what took so long between briefing the administrator under and miss brita in may 2011. >> chairman mica, we investigated a number of individuals. we turned over every stone. every time we turned over a stone, we found 50 more. >> but you never published a report? >> but in june, after providing that briefing to miss brita, somehow the gsa chief yesterday, informed kimberly

harris, the white house counsel, about the investigation going on. were you aware of that? >> i was not aware. >> you were not aware. it was interesting that back in may you advised administrator johnson to get a handle. this was maybe 2011 -- this was may 2011. >> i did brief administrator johnson on the interim report. >> did you tell them to get a handle on his travel expenditure? >> i told the regional administrator to get a handle on his travel. >> so, you told him? >> i told her. it is ruth cox. >> ok.

and then we have a trip to hawaii in october. another trip to atlanta. a warning, susan brita warned, i guess you, about 8 john kerry. >> -- about a junket. action, we contacted her. >> you contacted her. you expressed concern, right? >> yes, i did. >> what happened? >> i expressed concern. after a review the plans, that called it off, didn't? >> no. >> another one, in california,

hawaii, guam, another trip to atlanta. four days a site visit to hawaii. where is napa? is that in california? you got to go to the wine region. i see why mr. neely is not with us today. the only pictures i can get at them are in a hot tub swesuite. the i thank you ms. brita -- i thank you, ms. brita, for you coming forward and to be a good stewards of taxpayer dollars. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, for having this very important hearing today. needless to say, i was appalled when i first heard about some of

the things that gsa administration had charge to the taxpayers for their conference. this congress has had its share of disagreements over the past on how to reduce the federal spending and how to address the deficit issue. however, i think we all can agree that there is no place for this type of taxpayer abuse of funds. the employes to put together this conference forgot that the federal government is supposed to work on behalf of the taxpayers, families, and small businesses throughout maine should not have to pay for employees of gsa to take lavish vacations in las vegas or anywhere else throughout the country. i hope that we can get the information that we need here today to make sure that this does not happen again.

additionally, i plan to offer an amendment to the financial service and general government appropriations committee to prevent gsa from holding this type of conference in the future. this is extremely disturbing. i do want to commend ms. brita for what you have done. and what you are going to do. hopefully, with the agency. i guess, my question is for inspector general and ms. brita both. since this has been brought to light in the public's attention, what has been done or what will be done in the future to make sure that this does not happen again. for the inspector general, mr. miller, has the ig looked at other agencies that you are aware of for a similar type of abuse that might have occurred? or is occurring? >> we are currently looking at

all of the conferences in region 9. inre looking at conferences general. >> just region 9? >> well, we are focusing on region 9 right now. we are generally looking at conferences. we are receiving a number of hot lines, as you can imagine, about other conferences throughout the country. >> the acting administrator has committed to do a complete top to bottom review of the agency, centralization versus decentralization. overall service delivery of the agency. >> is the acting director also looking at making sure the federal government is reimbursed? >> yes, sir. he has already taken action in that regard.

three letters were sent out. >> mr. miller, what should congress do to make sure this does not happen again, not only with the gsa, but with other agencies? so, when you look at these types of conferences? >> i think supporting ig's is something that helps. we have to investigate these fraud and abuse is and waste. unfortunately, you cannot legislate good judgment. you cannot legislate good management. i think one of the things you can do is strengthen the inspector general and all the agencies. >> as far as gsa, are you understaffed at the inspector general's office? how many vacancies you currently have? >> i will leave that to the judgment of the appropriators. we currently have 70 special

agents. they're the ones to interview witnesses. i think you have read some transcripts with our special agents on there. we have forensic monitors. they're trying to find all of the funds. just trying to trace the money. we do have a forensic auditors. currently, we are under our level and not hiring due to a preparations' problems. >> could you submit to the committee the number of vacancies currently have? >> i would need -- >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. peck what were your impressions of the pool party where you're given an award on

this program? >> it was a reception in the afternoon. i got there outdoors at the hotel. i was not aware of what it cost. i cannot remember with the food was. i do not think that a to very much of it. nor was i -- i do not think that i ate very much of it. it is awesome the would have thought of or a rule i was familiar with. i thought as part of a hotel package that i had seen both in public and private sectors before, that those kind of receptions were provided as part of a hotel package. i thought at the end of the day, not knowing the expense, i did not think it was out of the ordinary. but we say one thing about the awards. i want to say, i would like to say something about coins.

when i left the government in 2001, federal agencies did not about coins. when i came back >> -- i asked w much they cost. we do not need coins. if we to give someone an aadaboy, i can give them a handshake. >> ok. i will ask that they put up a slide of their sweet. -- their suite. what was your impression? >> that it was ludicrously large. it was kind of like what you would see in las vegas. i also noted in my testimony, i

immediately asked what the charge was for the suite and whether there was an extra charge for it. >> ok. i have an e-mail here dated october 28. it is from you to death nearly. it says, the conference is unbelievable. what preparation and professionalism. i just sent a rave review. thank you for inviting me. do you want to comment on that? >> yes, sir. at that time, remember, i had arrived on monday afternoon. late monday morning. what had seemed is that during the presentation i had sought, the one time was there, they're all substantive about the work of the public buildings service. i thought the presentations prepared by the region's work could. -- were good. it was about how we could get work done better. i thought that was professional

and that is what i was referring to. >> when you decided to do a party in this week -- when you decided to throw a party in your suite, who paid for it? you indicated that you actually pay for the alcohol. is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> did you have bartenders and staff? >> no, sir. not to the best of my recollection. >> why would it be ok? there were no awards at this party? why would we bill the taxpayers for $2,000 worth of food in your party? >> it would not. >> it is not ok to do that? >> it would not. because it was not an award seven or an official function, i had a practice that when i went to meetings of trying to meet federal gsa employees and talk shop. it was a pre-dinner thing. i thought it was a nice thing to do. i specifically said it was not

a part of the program. i would pay for it myself. by the way, i was not prepared to pay for fancy food, that is why i got beer, wine, and chips. they said, how did that happen? and they said it is in the existing conference contract. i believe i said something to the affect of, and no additional cost. that is what i was told. i did not know that it was separate until i was interviewed about four weeks ago, when i asked him about the money and he told me if it was an additional amount or covered by the contract. in any event, i completely agree with you. i did not believe it was a legitimate taxpayer expense. yesterday i sent a letter to the inspector general and said that i was prepared to pay it back. >> mr. miller, one quick question about how well an agency is run. you think that the public would

be better served by having a central location across the government, provided with an opportunity to read their reports, learn what they do, and why they are important? >> i think that would help. we have that -- a website where you can access our public reports. there's also a web site called ignet.gov that would give you a list of the web sites. >> thank you. >> gentleman, i would like to also thank the chairman for his unwavering commitment to transparency. i have had the opportunity, along with the congressman, to work with him on the va side. i bring that up for a reason. every adjective has been used on this from deeply disappointed to furious. none of them get to the heart of the matter for me. the folks sitting here recognize

this. it is always healthy to be skeptical about government in a democracy like this. it is this type of behavior that moves it into cynicism, which is cancerous. the american public is cynical, if you look at the polling, that rates never before seen. they not trust large financial institutions, taxpayers failed the mouth, and they saw big bonuses go to the people that made the problem in the first place. then the people assigned to oversee this very thing do the same thing. this attack on trust is so frustrating at a time and we are being asked to provide efficiencies and get things out of this. to put this in perspective, to understand the choices that were made, for you to understand the folks that make those choices and what it means, i would like to talk about the choices that we have. we have an unprecedented number of veterans looking for service.

in minneapolis this weekend they talked about these veterans of were treated for special mental health care and, when interviewed, 70% of the providers said they did not have adequate resources or space. we are asking them to do more for less and someone had the audacity to do this. it goes beyond public trust. how do we get to this point of selfishness when others are being asked to do more with less? it is frustrating to me that this becomes -- inspector general, i want to be clear, i am an unabashedly, a huge fan of inspector general's. i fought for years to make sure that in the va one of the most important jobs we do is providing oversight in checks and balances. you cannot legislate some of the bad choices that were made, but you know we can do?

foot in redundancies and safeguards. that is the way you protect against bad judgment and rogue employers. i am just baffled that the redundancies fell through. you know that there is no free lunch. if it is part of the contract, the price was jacked up. they know that you will spend the money elsewhere. the money was spent elsewhere. they will not give that away. i appreciate your attention to detail in looking at this, but at some point in time someone had to recognize that. you're right, members of congress have to use their own money, or campaign money. you bring up a good point on that, but how does it passed beyond through redundancy? mr. miller, i will come back to you for a second. when they knew that this was being done -- we can take out the things, sushi, whenever makes the highlight, the $44 for

breakfast? i cannot spend $44 on breakfast and i am a big man. are you kidding me? the american public now leaves every single employee in every single agency is corrupt and not doing what they are supposed to. i watched those mental health providers in southern minnesota doing the best they could with a crowded waiting room. it is simply unacceptable. what needs to come out of this is -- yes, someone needs to be held accountable. making sure that safeguards are put in place. how do we do that? what are your suggestions point to be, if i can ask? >> we need to have stronger central control. i believe that the new acting administrator has already instituted more centralized control the finances, so that each budget is not controlled by a regional commissioner or

administrator. i think he is working on having control over the ip system as well. as you said, redundancy, control, checks and balance, those things can help to check the excesses', the bad judgment, the criminal activity of others. we have always relied on people to tell us when they see something wrong. that is why, as an administrator, we reminded all gsa employees to call our office if they see anything wrong, because we rely on people telling us this. >> would you have caught it without susans help? with the ig have been able to finish -- figure this out without that coming forward? >> a difficult question. culture washat the a culture that put down anyone who complained.

witnesses said that the regional commissioner would put people down and he knew how to put people down. one witness said someone tried to raise an objection and the witness said -- he squashed her like a bug. with that kind of atmosphere -- >> that is the most disturbing thing i have heard. this is the culture of the organization and will continue forward if it is in there. that peace has to be changed. mr. chairman, thank you for the extra time. >> thank you. >> i have gone through this report. to be honest with you, i do not know where to start. we could probably spent weeks talking about all of the be used, the different items of abuse, and to be honest with you, it actually makes me sick to my stomach.

i do not want to go there. i think that the public will eventually see what has happened. i think that there is a bigger problem here. a much bigger problem. you see, the people back home in my district, in pennsylvania, they may not be able to go on one vacation this year because of the price of gas. they are hard working, blue- collar americans. to look at reports where the gsa spent $136,000 on a scouting trip before the conference, that is more than of setting. i am fortunate that i have the opportunity to be here today to get this off my chest, but most americans do not have that chance. they will love be able to stand here and get it off of their chests, what they feel.

in my 1 year i have seen more waste, fraud, and abuse in this government. it is absolutely frightening, the way that our federal government works. and how we treat the hard- working taxpayer dollars. laughing in those videos, literally it makes me sick. you said you told someone -- someone told you that the food was covered at your sweet. who did you tell? >> i do not recall, exactly. >> who told you that it was covered? >> who was it? >> i do not recall who it was. >> let's move on. who did you ask about the cost of the room? >> i asked at least one of the other people who worked on the

conference. >> and they told you there was nothing wrong with that? who was the other person? >> either ms. daniels or one of the other people who had worked on the conference. >> this is the only time you had ever witnessed federal abuse in the gsa? was this the only example that we could talk about today, or were there other times? other than this? >> this is the only conference i am aware of in which this kind of expense was out of control. most of the meetings and conferences that i attended were focused on the business of the general services administration. >> this is where i am going about the bigger problem. this happened in 2010, and here we are in 2012, talking about it. but it did not end there. that was not just a one time

deal. just this year, february 4, a regional commissioner spent 17 days in guam. who does that? in the private sector, leave their job for 17 days? that is not the way real people were. real companies. it does not end there, either. march 12, the meeting in napa, off site. why did we have to me there? >> i believe you are talking about the same regional commissioner. i do not know. i was not aware of the meeting. the senior management meetings i attended were held in conference rooms where we brought box lunches and people pay their own way. those were the kinds of meetings over necessary. >> who reports to who? we could sit here and found on mr. neely, as well he should be.

he should be pounded on. but who oversees two? i ran a company. i ran a business. i can tell you, this would not have been going on. we would not be talking about this two years later. who is responsible for who? at what point do you blow the whistle? at what point do other employees say -- this is wrong and something needs to be done? why are we trying to drag information out of people now, when most americans -- let me just finish this. this is the bigger problem. this is the news release. big government just does not work. this is not the way the private sector works. i think we need to be talking about is -- what we do instead of the gsa? because there is a lot of abuse in the gsa and other government

agencies. i believe that the $822,000 spent in las vegas by the gsa should be a farewell party. thank you. >> thank you. mr. cummings? >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. thank you and the ranking member for your decision with regards to allowing the witness, ms. daniels, to be excused. i thought that that was the appropriate thing to do. as a lawyer, for many years, i felt it was the appropriate thing. i want to follow up a little bit on some of the question that mr. walsh was asking. mr. miller, we heard you restating something that you said yesterday, before the oversight and government reform committee, about mr. neely.

saying to one witness that you interviewed, that she would be squashed like a bug. let me read her entire statement that she made. this is a ". -- quote. she had tried to bring this up at the board of directors meeting. "she would probably get squashed like it but whenever she brought up the extravagance, the evidence, the hotel suites. typically, -- hotel suite here " typically, at a conference, it was not a one time thing, but certain people got these extravagant accommodations. and does that sound familiar? >> yes, it does. >> the witness also said that the intimidation factor was

fairly large. let me return to you. were you aware that mr. neely intimidated employees that went to him? >> i did not know that he intimidated employees. i did, in fact, on more than one occasion tell him that i had heard that in his headquarters, as opposed to his field offices, and there were people who might be reluctant to give him bad news because he would not take it well. >> what did you mean by that? >> that it is here say and, as a manager, you want to pick it up and i reflected it in his performance evaluation. i had heard that there were some managers, who when they sit in a meeting, to be honest i thought we were talking about policy issues.

i thought the report talking about issues of real government waste and integrity. >> i want to ask you some other questions. did any of the employees raise concerns about mr. neely's conduct in terms of lavish or excessive spending? >> not that i recall, no. >> were there ever any concerns over his retaliatory actions? -performance reviews, threatening to relocate them, other similar actions? >> i am sure that if i had, i would have taken action. >> this employee that was squashed like a bug was clearly right about the lavish spending. what does this mean to you, if it was not retaliation? people who felt they had been squashed like a bug? >> i am not going to -- i would not split hairs over that.

that is an intimidating atmosphere. >> if someone had said that to you, you would have taken some kind of action? >> yes, sir. >> mr. neely may have spent over a quarter of a million dollars during travel over five years. mr. peck, did you track the travel expenditures of regional administrators or commissioners bella -- or commissioners? >> the way we try to maintain control is by benchmarking the travel, training, information technology expenses of regions, balancing them for the amount of work load that they had. that is what the provisional manager was supposed to be tracking. i am not able to access that information anymore. i do not know how it is, but that kind of travel could have happened without review.

>> you said that he did "a great job," over the years. you said that he shouldn't receive a positive performance rating and you defended him. i am having trouble understanding your position. maybe you did not fully appreciate the level of abuse. i agree with mr. walsh. this is abusing people. we are a better country than that. this is a better agency than that. but there is no question that the actions of mr. neely were inappropriate. and you were his supervisor, were you not? yes or no? >> no, sir, but i do not want to -- a way that the gsa structure works, the result commissioners to not report directly to the national commissioner.

however, there is a very strong line of authority to the national commissioners. certainly, i could exert control when necessary. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. cummings. >> mr. chairman, thank you. what do you know about the 2010 interim conference in palm springs? between may 10 and may 14 of 2010, palm springs, california. >> what do you know about it so far? >> there were 150 attendees.

food is also serve that that conference. we're looking into the propriety of that, as well as other obligations. and after the briefing from last year, you allow these a leveraged conferences to continue. >> when i came back >> i canceled a number of other national conferences that they did not believe would be lavished given the dead guy that they're going to have may happen wondering how often they would have those meetings, where

would they go? how much would the cost? >> the meetings appeared to be fairly regular. there was an off site meeting at the end of march at math, 2012. that is march of this year. the pbs region 9 offside leadership meeting in napa. food is reported to be about $40,000 for about one. we are also looking into allegations regarding other offsite and tours, like the jeep tours, that side -- that kind of thing. >> thank you. >> mr. miller, the investigation that you had been overseeing with your hat off bowl investigation relief -- hats off investigation revealed evidence of employees exchanging awards

with each other all in place. >> >> gsa had a policy about these and we are reporting and the half-hour report became final. in terms of adverse personnel actions, the region nine commercial commissioner and we always said that even with the interim during the western union, french for but they did

not. the only thing that we said was that we were still investigating western union's and that a technical or adverse personnel actions would not wise. but everything else is for -- permissible. >> i know that you began the investigation largely because >> we began the investigation and subpoenaed apple and one of the ipod's was located in but rigid revision is the -- mr. neil e.'s

personal setting. his daughter from the store and into taking things of flexibility it. >> thank you. mr. peck? >> my anger and frustration have gotten to a boiling point. i got sworn in in of -- in the last year, of what under may

12, and the november 4 we had a hearing on the los angeles courthouse, and on the ninth we hold another hearing they you hold in to the idea that ps has received the cost of information from the gsa, we wanted to let you how lacking the top page was. march 27, another hearing, we

sent a letter to and it has been a one year and one-half. we have requested, sent a letter to the community, demanded. why are you hiding demanding information and where ask for detailed information a row over red, -- over and across in february or march there were a number of revisions to its soda

-- of the site. >> are there videos? >> i do not believe so. i believe that spending was and i do not have the data in front of me and liz >> it is over one dozen conversations that we have had that on the same. life with cell phones do you have to have a letter from the committee? do we have to pass a bill, and legislation demanding and i do

not know the exact minute but demands for the people you're talking about. >> at this point, all across the nation, lavish expenses, this was just the tip of the iceberg. we know the question was in there. it was not, why are you hiding from us? >> i do not have access to any information from gsa any more. >> but did you? you were the top guy. >> yourself as a focal requests? >> i am trying to figure out that if you are the top guy, how did you not know that this was going on in the western region, or all of the regions?

>> mr. chairman, allegations i have heard so far today have been remitted to and with respect to other conference spending and where across the various regions i was working in a level where i was working with large numbers across the nation , not specific consequences -- conferences. except to the extent that national conferences were placed under review in my office. partly a restaurant -- and i will have to give her my entire time here is a test of the

number of employees there, as well as the number of authorized fte's. the amount of the minister of costs, with a breakdown of how much relates to personnel costs, staff hired for the stimulus occupied space for an -- administrative office services with a square foot wall with our company coming, we wanted a detailed budget. not just about the obama administration, but the bush administration as well.

five years of a budget. how much money has been spent? in what areas? in what regions? this is not a republican or democrat issue, this is an american issue of knowing what the government is doing. you have certainly gone through my time here. but we have plenty of time today. i hope they you had a good breakfast. we will have a long time to go through these. take the amount of time you want on each question, but we will continue to go through them. >> mr. miller, it would be important for the committee to know, as far as you know or anyone in the table might now, whether or not what we find in region 9 has metastasized to other parts of the agency. it is fair to say that there

was building up over time something of an abusive culture.

evidence? in light of what you have seen, are you looking at other parts of the gsa at this time? >> we have continuing investigations into other conferences. we are looking at least one other conference in another district. region 9 employees say that spending was part of the culture. so, we do have plenty of evidence. >> are you doing continuing investigations? >> yes, yes, we are. in too many issues there. other conferences. we are looking at other conferences outside region 9 as well. >> mr. boone, your title is

chief financial officer of the general services administration. general services administration.