author and his newest book on president lyndon johnson and then british prime minister talks about phone hacking and jeremy hunt and his relationship to rupert merdock. then a discussion on youth activism and the environment. >> this week on q&a. two time pulitzer prize winning author discussing the passage of power. his latest book in the multi volume biography book entitled the years of lyndon johnson. >> your fourth book about lyndon johnson and the passage of power. you talk about the tension between linco lyndon johnson.

well the first time they met is fascinating. lyndon johnson the great powerful majority leader. robert is this new senator to joseph maccarthy. how do we know what happened the first time they met. two of johnson's staff people told me the same story. they told me he had breakfast every morning and joe maccarthy around the roundtable and register where he would it is with his staffers and maccarthy is there for four or five including bobby kennedy.

had some kind of a confrontation? >> the next time the action had a conversation was probably at the democratic convention in 1960, where president kennedy was there. how has he been in their? >> lyndon b. johnson was 62.

i did that very quickly. bobby kennedy was born in 29. >> there was a great deal of difference in age. what have lyndon johnson done until the time he was selected? what had robert kennedy done? >> at the time that johnson starts running against jack kennedy for the 1960 democratic nomination, he has been the senate majority leader for six years. he is in the greatest majority leader in history. he made the senate work. he introduced his own bills. it was the center of governmental and ingenuity and energy in washington. he was the most powerful democrat in the country. the cut in the second most powerful man in the country, second to president eisenhower.

for the last two years he had been running his brothers. >> you say he worked for joseph mccarthy. why? >> well, he left mccarthy's committee eventually. there was a time, and he is frank to admit it, when he believed something had to be done about the communist conspiracy in this country and that mccarthy was the only person doing it. considering a large part of this book is about how bobby kennedy change, it is interesting. it is an evolution. all that happened was i got older. i do not think that is all that happens. he changed as a human being. you see something quite different. when he was a young prosecutor

for first mccarthy and then the racket committee, the liberals -- if you see newsreels of him questioning witnesses in this way, he was a very hard nosed prosecutor. >> go back to the 60 convention. why did john f. kennedy offer lyndon johnson? >> nobody knows what is in somebody's mind. he had, in retrospect i think that john f. kennedy saw it from the beginning. he was quite a brilliant politician. he had to have lyndon johnson. in 1956, the south was not solid for the democrats.

eisenhower had taken five of the 11 confederate states. one of them was taxes. new democrati was going to win the presidential election without carrying texas. he had to have johnson. >> lyndon johnson ran against him for the nomination. why did he lose? >> that is one of the fascinating stories in the book to me. all his life, at the one quality was hisyndon b. johnson of o willingness to try as hard as he could for everything. here he has wanted to president of his life. lyndon johnson only had one goal in his life, to be president. in 1958, he seems perfectly

positioned to become president. he has been the majority leader. he has all the senators in his camp. he has passed the first several rights camps in history. in 1958, he calls seven or eight of his top lieutenants to his ranch in says i'm destined to be president. i was meant to be president. you all know that. i am going to be president. and they are waiting for the campaign to begin. suddenly, he does not run. he does not give any orders. he does not want to speak anywhere. he's terribly indecisive. he throws away his chance at this nomination. >> why? >> people who knew him best say,

like john connally later became secretary and treasury secretary of the navy, a great politician, once had him down to his ranch for three days. those interviews were fascinating. he was close to lyndon johnson during those early years. it comes to my guest house. he had a great-grandson in florida. he comes up 530 in the morning. he knocks on my door. lee is still in withe had a star were says. we went over to the railing. we would sit on the fence and he would talk to me. he said, that the one thing about lyndon johnson was that he was afraid to fail. why? the one thing that was most important to him, his father had

been a politician for a while and had failed. the family was plunged not only to bankruptcy by being the laughingstock of their town. and he was senate majority leader, he said he learned to never let him fail on a vote. never. >> you said there are two people who have not talked to you. one is bobby baker. how hard did he work? >> bobby baker years ago made repeated efforts -- i made repeated efforts to get him to talk to me. he did not think much of my book. he does a complimentary things about my books. he said read peter lee

complementary things that he simply says that he does not want to talk -- he has said complimentary things about my book but he says he does not want to talk about lyndon johnson which was understandable. i do not think he said that for many years. you have to ask him why. >> what did you miss because of these two men. what have the missed? have you missed? >> you miss a lot from both of them. he has written a very revealing memoir. there is so much testimony about him at the time in the book. e able to putt

together most of the picture. i do not think it's another johnson person important to me that did not talk to me. i am sure there is somebody. i talked to scores and scores of people. whenever you cannot talk to someone, you missed them. >> how much did bill more your's lack of talking about this have to do with the things like wiretapping? >> you have to ask him that. there are so many memos. i think i spent probably three months going through all the memos. he was johnson's aid.

you see a lot of what he was doing. he is a very keen observer of people. you like to have been able to talk to him. >> go back to the relationship between lyndon johnson and bobby kennedy. >> and his brother said that lyndon johnson was afraid to fail. most people who know him best said he was afraid to feel like his father. he was afraid the red for the presidency, he would fail. that i think is why he did not run. >> how badly did he beat lbj? the final tally was a 06-409. that is not a realistic tally. windigo of to wyoming, we did when they got up to wyoming, and he did not have the necessary votes. if only he can keep kiddy from

getting the majority on the first ballots -- if only he can keep from getting the majority of the first ballot. in the back room, kennedy comes close. he did not have the necessary votes. the chairman promised teddy kennedy that if it comes down to his delegation, he will give the last five votes of that delegation. see it is coming down to wyoming. walter cronkite said there is teddy kennedy hurrying across the floor. he is hurrying over to the wyoming delegation. you see him saying something to the chairman this as wyoming casts 15 votes for john f. kennedy.

after kennedy has the majority, a number of states did. it was close that he was going to make its. >> you said they were both ruthless. explain what that means. give us examples. >> it is always easier to do it with lyndon johnson. johnson's worthlessness throughout his life was striking. in the last volume, he world and destroyed the senate career of earl clemens by forcing him to vote on an earlier version and medicare. they knew that if he votes id f, he would be destroyed because

the ama had been very active in the state. johnson says unless i need your vote, i will not call on you. he really knows that he needs it. when it is a tie vote and he sends bobby baker to clemens, he said the sweat was pouring down his face. he had to give it. johnson had to win. he had to win. robert kennedy had to win also. it is quite fascinating. and johnson realizes the key to the campaign are the western states. johnson thinks he has them. kennedy thinks that they sent the younger brother out there. he is the youngest.

he is such a good politician that he starts to wind it. bobby goes out to reinforce this. johnson realizes what is happening. he said the guy who went out there for johnson first said robert kennedy had put the bridal on the delegates. once bobby kennedy put the bridle on, people knew they could not take it off. >> good to the selection as lbj as vice presidents, a running mate for john f. kennedy. there is a huge amounts on your about the back and forth of bobby kennedy's involvement. >> he tried to get this. there is no question about.

he chose not to accept the offer of the bis presidency. kennedy has won the night before with a hundred six boats on the ballot. the next morning, this is on the hotel. the two suites are in the back corner of the hotel. >> i have to stop you for a moment. did you go to those suites? >> yes. it has been renovated. it was not productive. he cannot tell what they had been like. -- you cannot tell what they had been like. >> this chapter of my book is called the back stairs.

in the morning, jack kennedy comes down. they do not want the reporters to see him. he comes down the back stairs. he offers lyndon johnson, and he has a conversation. whenever there only to people in the room, you really cannot say as a historian you know what happens. one gives one version and one gives the other. we know what happened after the meeting. johnson calls and his three closest advisers, john connally, bobby kennedy, and junior. he says kennedy offered me the vice president. kennedy goes back upstairs. there is a group of northern

those who know they can count votes. kennedy walks in the room. he says he has not said he will accept it. it looks like he is going to. he has a picture of this very moment. lawrence reaches out his hands. irish handsome politician. they shook hands. lawrence knows this is the key to the election. what happens the rest of that day? no one can know. everybody has different versions. we do know that by the kennedy came down the stairs at least three times. each time they tried to get lyndon johnson to withdraw. >> which version do you trust the most? what do they mean? >> what happened in the

meetings, we do know. there are other people involved. let the first time bobby kennedy comes down, he meets with john connally. sam rayburn gave a description of what happens. we have that. john connally talked to me. what happened was is he came down. he was very upset. he said his hair was hanging down. he basically said we're going to have a floor fight. the liberals will not stand for lyndon johnson. they will put up their own candidates. we would like you to consider being the chairman of the democratic national committee. rayburn said "epitaph."

the second time robert kennedy comes down coming he apparently -- am i going on too long backed the second time he goes o? the second time he comes down, at each of these meetings, he wants to meet with lyndon johnson but lady bird says i did not think it ought to meet. raborn knows the also should not meet. there's too much antagonism. the second time that bobby kennedy comes down, he said i have to get rayburn. johnson a connally his campaign manager because he is the only man tough enough to handle bobby kennedy. sam rayburn is old.

he has cancer at the time. he is blind. he is sam rayburn, at this massive, and smiling figure who has world's this for a quarter of a center of -- who has ruled this for a quarter of a center. >> it is almost a father and son. he loved lyndon johnson like his son. he would spend perhaps most sundays in washington at the johnson's home. he loved the two danzig girls. the two johnson girls. connolly says go in there and talk to bobby kennedy. i have got to sign sam rayburn. he is a very smart, brilliant

little man. he is a little timid. he walked back out. he said bobby kennedy was glaring at me. i walked outside. i said i will deal with him. i will not stay in there. connolly comes back with sam rayburn. bobby kennedy says he wants lyndon johnson to withdraw from the ticket. raborn says to bobby kennedy " are you authorized to speak for your brother?" bobby kennedy's "saysno." -- kennedy says "no." he says "they come back when you are." he comes down a third time to do get johnson to withdraw and this time he meets with johnson along. >> what do you think out of all

the research did jack kennedy sent his brother down to get him off the ticket or not? >> i do not know. i do not know. no one can really know. robert kennedy and world history says of course not. i was so close to my brother. what you think i did? however, jack kennedy did everything he could to get johnson to except the nomination. kennedy goes down the same backstairs to see sam rayburn alone. raborn says basically that i would ask you to things. will you keep lyndon johnson occupied in happy?

something else. kennedy says william make him a real part of your administration. he says i tell you that. sam rayburn says i agree. >> what did the kennedy called lyndon johnson behind his back? >> among other things, uncle rufus. >> why? >> they are mocking the fact that he has a southern accent and that he is a southerner. that he is corny. to be on that, they said why did they treat him with a mean ness and cruelty? i tried to explain that in the

book. they were afraid of him among other things. they had watched lyndon johnson. they had seen his incredible energy and drive. johnson wase wa walking out of his one light building. he turns to his aid and says, but nobody out works lyndon. they were afraid that if you let him walk a very tight least, he will start to build up his own power in washington. >> if i count right, including the index in notes in your book , 323206 the pages.

?hat happened at you have a fifth one coming. at i divided them. that is such a good question. the last half of this book is the assassination of what happens in the 47 days after that. i am writing and i'm watching lyndon johnson take all the reins of power. it is dramatic to see what he does. i know i have told you this. i do not regard this as just a biography of lyndon johnson. i want each book to examine the political power in america. i'm saying this the kind of political power, seeing what a president can do in a time of great crisis. what does he do to get legislation moving?

that is a way of examining power. i want to do this. i suppose it takes 300 pages. let's examine this. >> in your book, lyndon johnson i think life is to the public's about a number of things including his relationship with his blind trust. how often from what you have seen in this book has lyndon johnson lied to the public about anything? >> these 47 days is a time unlike any other in lyndon johnson's life. he has all these forces. lying is a big part of his

entire career. it is like he rises to something else. i do not think it is really part of it. what he does to stop the texas journalists from looking into his fortune. it is a minor part of what he does. he knows he has to be a president. the country need continuity. if they are young. the president has just been struck down. most of these theories are disproven. that is not the headline. air force one is far back in washington. suspect arrested appeared suspect charged. suspect visited soviet embassy.

suspect has prided and side-castro groups. the country would be very easy to become worried. the country was worried. there's a great anxiety. johnson knows he has to step off that plane and be a president. he did. he rises to its. for the next seven weeks, he is a president. someone says it is like an alarm clock had always told him to yell at something every 120 minutes. for seven weeks his alarm clock

did not go off. >> i want to take a moment and run an audio tape of one of your sources. i want to ask you to tell us how important george reedy was to this book. >> george reedy was very important. he was lyndon johnson's press secretary with a couple from 1950 to 1965. in the senate, he is the closest aide and johnson relied on him. george reedy was a brilliant man. johnson relied on him to help him work out the strategy. >> this is a couple of minutes. it is lyndon johnson on the phone with george reedy so we think it's a sense of what their relationship was. >> why would you answer me in

their? >> i was outside. >> it is in the east room. >> they say 645 is the best time. them cold.ay it to they say 635 and cbs will carry live. abc will carry live. >> i thought 7:00? what it was and they will do it. we'll get better play at 645. >> i do believe that. 7:00. 6:45 is 4:45 in part of our country. >> it will be replayed. >> that is not an answer. >> 5:00 is when people are getting off.

i do not see why it it would be better. >> most of the stations will carry it live. that is why. they will do it at 7:00. there's no question there. you're stations will carry it. that.o not think a bod of what i do not either. i'm just pressing on what they said -- i do not think that. >> i did not either. i'm just passing on what they said. >> they do not want to interrupt the 7:00 news. it begins at 645, cbs has that cheap time. >> that is what they're after. no doubt about it. they will carry its. and get imagine they're turning it down.

-- i cannot imagine they are turning it down. >> we cannot do this in a hurry. i do not know enough about it. they're selfish. he does not want to give up the primary time. it is 7:00 here, it is 5:00 in taxes. -- in texas an. i do not believe you'll get much audience. i think later in the evening is better. let's talk about it. bill moyers is in here. let's try to reason it out. >> there is a lot in their including his reference to jesse um.ll >> is manager of the radio and

television stations. >> how many stations did he have? >> only one. wlbj, later to different call letters. >> why only one television station? >> the fcc only allowed one. airplane pilots said it could always tell when you were over there because they only had one television antenna. >> you do talk about jesse kellum and the money managers. i will come back to that. what did you hear in that? >> first of all, i heard it press secretary was always like this. to he said they will carry its.

this is what i arranged. i am explaining it to you. it is among the reasons that johnson did george read threedy. reedy is telling him not to escalate it. reedy likes to tell johnson the truth. you hear johnson, a master politician. is a micro manager. he is thinking what time it goes on in california. he is right. he wanted at 7:00 instead of 6:45. he manages everything of every detail. the third thing i hear is the tone of his boys. to tell you the truth. -- voice, to tell you the truth. there are several conversations with the tone is a lot harsher and more demanding.

what do you hear and that? -- in that? >> you hear him harsher in some? go back to jesse kellam. you have a whole section were you talk about his relationship to the media and his threats. we heard a lot of that during the nixon administration. >> the reason that i do go into the threats that he may, in december 1963, he has been in office for a month. he has kennedy's civil rights bill started. he has committee's tax bill started. he did beat congress on another thing.

he murdered them. he flies off to texas. during which he creates be "war on poverty." he has never conversations were he is worried the press is getting too close to the fact that he has accumulated a fortune during his life. do you want me to tell that to kellam? kellam comes out and says there is a reporter from the herald who sent me this list of questions. what do i do about it? johnson telephones the managing editor and says the exact quote from the book. you do not want to be investigated by me. someone might investigate you.

i do not know the actual uses the word in those terms but he says we may investigate a lot of things. we can investigate this. the last time they were up for this, they did not go into it thanks to me. the fcc likes to look at how much tv time a regular stationed abodes to nonpaying public service. i held to before but i might not help you again. some might start looking into these things. the managing editor is saying "don't worrky. y. we'll stop it."

johnson said next week is not good enough. call me back tomorrow morning. tomorrow morning he called back and said "she will be stopped." she was. i talked to her about it. they make clear that they did not want her investigating it. >> how long did she stay with the paper? wonderful.as she stayed. i think she was the first woman who had the washington bureau of a national newspaper. to cover lyndon johnson for years. >> we hear politicians tell us that the money is in a blind trust. what ever they are worth, it is

in a blind trust. you said it was not very blind. >> yes. trustees.one of the his partner ferguson was a judge in the hill country. he said it seems like every night johnson was telling him what to do. >> you say their special telephone lines? >> yes. it was a telephone line on the desk of the general manager.

we are going to go in the next book into what happens. in this book, what is happening is that life magazine has found out about it. at the very moment they have investigating it, it they started investigating body baker. they soon found it was leading to lyndon johnson. the very morning that jack kennedy is assassinated, at the same time the motorcade was going to dallas, there is a meeting to divide up the areas for a series on what one had been called "lyndon johnson's money." there are about to investigate it. >> this book covers when?

>> in in exactly with the state of the union address on january 8, 1964. in that time, why i do that, in this time, he takes kennedy's programs. he gets them started. he makes the country have a feeling of continuity. he says to a friend's "i have to continue kennedy's program. if i want to run for reelection and do what i want to do, i have to make the program my own." that christmas he has his advisers create the "war on poverty." he said too many americans live on the outskirts of hope. he lays out the basic outline. that is the ending.

>> back to the bobby kennedy/lbj relationship. what impact that have on history? >> an immense impact. that is going to play out in 1967 and 1968. largely over vietnam and over civil-rights. the antagonism, there are scenes in this book where bobby kennedy, kennedy is an attorney general. .ohnson is the vice president's bobby kennedy humiliates and time after climtime. every time johnson wanted to use it, he had to get written permission. every time he wanted to give a

speech from every word had to be cleared. kennedy does more. they are both on the president's civil rights opportunity. in two consecutive meetings, johnson is chairing this. you can really believe this. johnson was once the second most powerful man. he is chairing that meaning. johnson's chief aide has started demanding answers to humiliating him.umiliated hi bobby kennedy walks over to someone else and starts chatting when johnson tries to reply. bobby kennedy is having a chat. he simply walked out of the

room. on the second of these meetings, he says to a civil rights leader to lois martin, i have to make a trip. i have to take a plane. he told the vice president to cut it short. i knew how he would be if he was angry. robert kennedy comes over. i told you to go over and cut it short. johnson continues talking. there are things that when you are writing, you can hardly believe you're writing them. it seems to be must be exaggerating.

>> you talk about robert kennedy cutting off his ability to fly wherever he wanted to fly. why did lbj do the same thing to hubert humphrey? he became his vice president and he would not let him use a jet plane across the united states. >> you really know this stuff. you are right. he certainly did the same thing to hubert humphrey. i have to say that i have not finished on why i will do it. and nothing i have examined and now. >> let me ask you about the next volume. i know you hate this. what is your timetable? what does it really matter what i say to you? would you believe me? >> of course. this book tenures. >> be a. that is not right.

-- this book took 10-years? >> yes, but that is not right. i was doing the research on the rest of its. i have done most of the research on the next volume as well. >> that is underwriting the next? >> yes. i have written part of it. >> to do you think this will be the final but? think this will be the final book? new askritten three this and i said yes. ed this. and you askc i said yes. >> what is the update on your memoir the you say you are writing? >> that is very long. i do that had -- to do any research. it is my own life. it is the day memoir about how i

grew up in new york. it is more and more about what it was light to try to find out the truth about lyndon johnson and how they were a political power. i think there was a lot a step that is interesting. . i would say it is how i had a difficult to do the research. but how have you approached this subject since we began? reachinroutine. your he did this seven days a week writing in taking time off.

anything changed in this? >> i always tried to talk to everyone that is involved in this. i like to still be able to talk to them. i use be able to call george reedy. . had gone out here i it got to the point that if you are writing away, you do not what i do shmooze someone would have to captain. i said when johnson was meeting, where was johnson, on the rocking chair or the sofa? he would say the rocking chair. i would say thanks.

i do not think has smudged in much has changed. >> did you deliver a eulogy? >> yes, i did. in adequate for the help he gave me. we both live on central park west. i have four more interviews with him. over and over again, i would call and ask him about something of that gap in the kennedy administration. he was a very thoughtful man. every word i had was considered. why'd you come by after work. i would come by. imagine going into his lobby.

-- it meant going into his lobby. we would sit in this wonderful apartment. he was effectively blind. he would sit on one couch. i would sit in the other. it again darkly in the afternoon. he would be talking about things. -- it would get dark in the afternoon. he would be talking about things. i would think, i hope nothing further happens to him. he knows a step that nobody else does. his relations to jack kennedy were so special that he himself was so brilliant not just at words but it analyzing things, and that it was like each of these things was a lesson. i hasten to say he would not disagree with everything. he knows things and no one else could have told me.

>> what part of this book was the hardest to research and write? >> probably, at the hardest to research was the johnson's vice presidency. it was so poignant to see this powerful man humbled and humiliated day after day that it was painful fo rr me to learn about it. one said he could i go over to the white house when johnson was over there are dickie cannot go over to the white house -- he said he could not go over to the white house when johnson was over there because of the with the lore people treated him. -- the lower people would tread t him.

to happen to a lyndon johnson, somebody said it was like a great bull put out to pasture late in life. he did not know what to do. >> was there a time before he left the presidency at the end of 68 where he got revenge? >> oh yes. although we are going to see that. it is funny, bobby kennedy says to bobby baker at the democratic convention when johnson has insulted by the kennedy's father. robert kennedy was devoted to his father. bobby baker thinks this is all just normal politics. he and fight bobby baker and has breakfast with him. he takes a minute before bobby kennedy throws change on the

table and says still wary. he will be yours when the time comes. -- don't worry. you will be yours when the time comes. >> of all the subject matter the size the vice presidency, -- besides the vice presidency, which of those was the most difficult to be your hands around? >> the tax cut probably. the civil-rights bills and the tax cuts, to understand how johnson got them moving again, it is like a lesson in politics. why do i have to stop the book here? you want to see what he does in this time of crisis. what he does with these two bills which are effectively stalled, how we get some

moving, you say wow. he has a gift. a legislative gift that is talent beyond a talent. to see johnson come in here and know what to do about it. when the figure it out, it is thrilling. >> how did he turn harry byrd of virginia are rounded? the budget would blow people's mind. >> kennedy's last budget was $98.9 billion. harry byrd has said something light it would be in -- like it to be nice the can and at $100

billion. -- if it came in at $100 billion. it's become in at 101.5, that will be ok. harry byrd is not releasing his kennedy tax cut bill. he is not releasing the budget. harry byrd is the chairman of the senate finance committee. the finance committee absolutely. kennedy introduced the budget back in january of '63. it is now november 22. these bills are not going out and being released from the finance committee. harry byrd has lent to them together, and the budget and the tax cut bill. kennedy feels that if only get

to $100 billion, that will be ok. they keep talking about going around harry byrd. the night of jack kennedy's funeral, johnson summons to his office, he is not in the oval three topnnedy's economic advisers. top threeennedy's advisers. they start to talk about going around harry byrd. lyndon johnson basically says " you cannot go around terry harry byrd." he has nine votes. >> they said how you know? >> johnson says "harry byrd

always has 9 votes >" >" ." we had to give what harry byrd wanted and we can have the tax cut bill. they realize $100 billion is a magic figure. he was the budget under $100 billion. the tax-cut bill starts. >> robert caro is our guest. his fourth book called "passage of power." >> thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] for a dvd copy of this program calls1-877-662-7726. calls1-877-662-7726.