arrested for ordering a georgia police -- murdering a gerogia olice officer. officer. he was arrested himself. in 2003 an olympian assassination plot targeting the saudi crown prince. later identified by the u.s. treasury as one much al>> it w'p fund-raisers. then there is the 2003 just days before the ceremony honoring exceptional publicon service. he said he would not receive the award. later when a spokesman said there was unflattering information that have been made public during the deportation proceedings, the ins had fought

for two decades on the that that was going to do five for the award. this is a designated terrorist organization. cambrian visa because we have people, we know there are three subjects that your office has refused to identify that have purged these materials. we know the gm of the to had meetings and conversations with high-ranking officials. we know that the palestinian islamic jihad leader had meetings and conversations with high-ranking officials at d.o.j. and the department of homeland security, and that was despite him being the subject of a fisa

wiretap warrant since the early 1990's, and his home was raided in 1995. we know that in 2008 you had handed one of your director's community leadership award to iman behindy who testified during the trial as a defense witness and hindi then served as a moderator, which was shut down in 2002 because they were a designated terrorist organization supporting al qaeda, of all groups. it just goes on and on and i'm very concerned that since there are people potentially terrorist organizations, terrorist ties as we have seen that the f.b.i. as made these type of mistakes before in trying to judge character, we would like to know who these subject matter experts are that

are going through the f.b.i. material and purging that of reference to jihad and islam and these type of things. would you identify those people for us? >> well, quite a bit in that question. >> some of it's background that i hope you are aware of. >> i cannot address all of what you said there. i will say at the outset we make every effort in our outreach, outreach in that statement to the muslim community are americans, and the vast, vast majority of muslim american community has been exceptionally supportive. >> you're not answering my question, director. >> if i may -- >> it's very pointed. are you going to identify the subject matter experts? that's the question. but are you going to answer that question? >> let the director respond to the question. >> i will when he answers the question. >> as i was saying outreach is very important to us. we make certain it's with the appropriate person. with regard to the individuals who abused the material there were five individuals not three.

we are happy to give you the background and consider giving you the names if you find it important. we hope there would be some confidentiality in doing that, but we have nothing to hide. >> you will identify those -- >> we will discuss circumstances under which we'll identify those individuals, yes. >> could we also get the documents you produced to the terrorists that were convicted in the holy land foundation trial? >> a number of congresspersons have come -- >> i wasn't aware of that. i'll be there to look. thank you. >> the gentleman's time has expired. the gentleman from north carolina, mr. watt. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, director mueller, for being here. you may have noticed that i was here for your testimony and then left because we have a hearing going on in financial

services on which i also serve. i want to spend some time talking about what's going on in the mortgage fraud area. during the time that we were working in financial services on what turned out to be the dodd- frank legislation, i had a lot of constituents who were saying to me, when are some of these people going to be put in jail? and my response always was, look, my primary focus at this point is to try to make sure that we don't have the same kind of things that led to this financial and economic meltdown occur again. so my authority is really not trying to deal with people who got us here but trying to figure out how not to be there a second, third, and fourth time. but since we have done dodd- frank and i continue to get a number of inquiries from people who are saying, when is somebody going to go to jail for all of these things?

now, you indicated there were -- you had nearly 2,600 mortgage fraud investigations. asking the question i'm and my constituents are asking me has to do with what have those investigations led to? and there seems to still to be a lack of prosecutions and accountability resulting from those investigations. now, i understand that you are not on the prosecution side, you are on the investigating side, and building of the case

side, but can you give us any information about what those 2,600 investigations have led to in terms of prosecutions, convictions, or how many of them are still in the prosecution process, what we might expect going forward on that front? >> let me -- i actually thought hi the figures but i don't have the figures here today. i'll have to get you figures in terms of prosecutions. there are have been literally thousands of prosecutions. many multimillion dollar scams that have been successfully prosecuted with individuals going to jail for tens of years. i recently in florida and going to talk to a group down there

and pointed out that several prosecutions where there were groups of individuals, particularly the housing complexes, and rolled over houses fraudulently for a number of years and if i'm not mistaken one of the principals was going to jail for 30 years. i'll have to get you the facts. >> that would be very helpful to somebody who serves on financial services committee in particular. we get a lot of inquiries. i guess we see periodically in local communities that somebody's been prosecuted, going to jail, but if we could get an overall picture of what has happened. a number of prosecutions, on a nationwide basis, it would allow us to respond more effectively to people who are saying, i haven't seen anybody prosecuted or going to jail as a result of this. the second part of that is the higher ups in the hierarchy, the more visible national prosecutions, how many of those have there been? and how successful have they

been to get to some of the people at the higher corporate levels who may have been involved in bringing down substantial financial institutions ultimately and resulted in massive housing loss, foreclosure loss of various kinds? >> there have been a number of prosecutions, particularly in new york, that have dominated the newspapers over the last year, particularly when it comes to insider trading, and the first use of title three wire intercepts and that type of white collar crime. we also had a number of securities fraud, prosecutions, and corporate institutional fraud. in fact, our investigations i

believe in the securities arena are up some 55%, 50%, 55% over 2008 and also up until 40% in the corporate fraud arena. again, will i have to give awe breakdown of the cases and give you some sense of what we are -- >> my time has expired, but i think it would be very helpful if we could get a broader picture of this statistical picture, not only your part of it, the investigateor part, but the prosecution and conviction side of it for those of us who are facing constituents who still are going through substantial foreclosures and have lost their homes, they want to see some results. i think they are results so i

appreciate you agreeing to follow up after the hearing on that. >> thank you, mr. watt. the gentleman from utah investigated. >> thank you for your service and being here. i'm going to try to touch on three subjects so i need to move fairly swiftly. on the anniversary of the killing of osama bin laden, was there a specific and/or credible threat of terrorism upon the united states of america? >> we did not believe so. you are referring no doubt -- >> there was an arrest. >> i think it's fair to say that plot had been thwarted at the time. >> let me move quickly to fast and furious. have you ever spoken with attorney general holder or secretary napolitano about the fast and furious case? >> i have to think -- certainly not secretary napolitano. unless you are talking about the killing of brian terry. if that's part of the question, then, yes, because we are conducting that investigation

both the concern about how that investigation is going and to get periodic updates. with regard to the wider fast and furious examination, i don't believe i have. >> the attorney -- >> i have talked to the department of justice. i do not recall having particular discussion with the attorney general. >> the attorney general's office has called fast and furious itself, even though they ran it, operated it, quote and quote fundamentally flawed. there are literally close to 2,000 weapons that have been released. other than the two guns that were found at the scene, have you or the agency come across any guns that were purposely released by our government under fast and furious? >> have you come across any of these guns or anything here in the united states? >> i have to check on that. >> if you could get back to me on that i would appreciate it. if you could clarify whether there were two guns or three guns found at the scene. even the letter we got most recently back to chairman issa i think was not as crystal clear

as we would like it to be. just follow up. >> i can respond to it. two guns. >> ok. >> there were two guns. there were some misinterpretation of information on the evidence sheet that seemed to indicate the potential or possibility of a third gun. only two guns were recovered. >> thank you. i want to move now to the more recent jones case that came before the supreme court, had to do with g.p.s. devices put on cars so it could be tracked. there's some concern i would guess law enforcement that this ruling, 9-0, by the supreme

court would change the way how law enforcement is able to track. i just want to get your thoughts and perspective on that quickly. get a sense of how many g.p.s. devices were on the cars and how this would affect what you are doing at the f.b.i. >> director mueller, would you pull your mike closer? >> first of all, i would say several hundred. over 200 investigations were impacted by the jones decision. somewhere over 200. what impact it has is the need for additional surveillances. when you use the g.p.s. devices you do not have to have teams of surveillance. as you know where the individual may be at any particular point in time. and certain investigations that's going to mean we are going to use very precious, valuable surveillance resources

where before we had the electronic capability to monitor individuals. i am aware of efforts, i believe your bill, to address the issue and i would say this. my looking at additional with you indicates that the definition of that kind of information that would be protected would require a warrant would expand the things such as telephone pole records which we have traditional gotten with subpoenas and the like, because a pole record may have a geographical indicator in it and the area code. as one thinks of legislation in this arena, probably keep in mind the impact it would have in our ability to do much of the work we do, particularly since the information we get from g.p.s. devices and the like contributes to the probable cause that is necessary to conduct further investigation using enhanced investigative techniques. >> the intent of the legislation is not to preclude those --

when you have probable cause, what it's concerned about is the ever expanding use of g.p.s. to track and follow not just by law enforcement but individuals who surreptitiously want to follow somebody else. my time has expired, but appreciate being able to work with you. i hope do you find there is a need to clarify the law based on what justice athletea and mr. wine stein have also said about this. so that there's clarity in the f.b.i. and other law enforcement. >> thank you, mr. chaffetz. the gentlewoman from california, ms. lofgren, is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you, mr. director, for being here. you have served your country with tremendous distinction and we are honored by your presence here today. i want to talk about technology. i remember visiting with you and looking at your plans for your new computer system many years ago, and i want to know where we are on that. it started in 2000 for me with the virtual case file.

we spent a lot of money, that was abandoned in january of 2005. in 2006 the f.b.i. planned its new sentinal system, we spent a lot of money, over $425 million, that was i guess kind of rescoped in 2008 with an additional $26 million. but it wasn't finished by the target date. in 2009 it was extended again. in july of 2010 the second phase had more problems. and in september of 2010 the agency announced a plan to have the methodology with a new target completion date of september, which was not met. and then in october there was a, i understand, a bureauwide test exercise which showed problems,

insufficient hardware capacity. and the i.g. gave a report in december that the f.b.i. was still trying to determine the cost of the additional hardware and had delayed its planned deployment until may. it's may now. where are we on this much awaited and extremely expensive system? >> unfortunately i am very aware of that history. can i tell you that it has been one of the most difficult challenges. a couple of parts along the way that are important. first of all when we first received the first phase, received from the contract the second phase, second phase did not work. we rescoped as you said the contract, much of it in house, and saved a heck of a lot of

money and the development applications that we were using. in september of last year we had the test and we had anticipated as a result of the test that we would put it in place, but what we found is we had to replace the architecture, the infrastructure in order to support it. we have done that now. we are in the final testing phases. and my expectation is this summer we will transfer some of our investigations over to the new system. >> this summer we are going to hit on it this summer? >> i always knock on wood. >> maybe what i'll do is come over and visit with you again. it's been a number of years to look at the system. >> we would be happy -- >> i want to talk about another technology issue. in your testimony you under going dark i think you talked about a concern that

communication providers are not required to maintain intercept capabilities in their networks. and especially given the wonderful experience with your own technology development i think that raises a few concerns. first, the psychological capability, direct private sector technology. secondary, whether it is your view that the federal government ought to be dictating private sector communication firms including internet providers, what their technology ought to be. as you can guess by my question, i have a deep concern. i think the american public would have a concern about the government building in back doors to the internet because although we want to get the bad guys, we also value the privacy rights of americans online.

if you have considered or aware of the apparent plan of russia and china to take over the governance of the internet from ican which has been engineer driven, multinational, but apolitical since we entered a contract with them in the mid 1990's, there's a meeting in october for the u.n. to take it over with perhaps a more politicized agenda and certainly likely less collaboration with western law enforcement. have you considered that and have had you a role in form lating administration policy on that?

>> let me focus on the issue of -- where there has to be an accommodation. we make a showing to a court that these individuals are engaged in crime. it can be a terrorist. it can be espionage. it can be distribution of child pornography and we need the communications whether it be for an i.s.p. or large corporation, and the court finds a probable cause and directs that corporation to be responsive to that court order requirement. these companies are very wealthy. have not considered at the outset how you they need to be responsive to a court order. what we are seeking is responsiveness to a court order, many of these companies they can afford to do it, and many of these companies that can afford to do it, particularly via the outfit they have an obligation to be responsive to court orders when there is a court order to

direct them. so the accommodation we are looking for is the corporations in their own way put themselves in a place, in a position to be samoansive to a court order they can anticipate is coming down the road. how they do that is probably at the issue at the heart of it. i think it's a valid objective, particularly in this day where communications are not done by the telecommunications companies necessarily. they are done by a number of other companies, many of whom are in your district, and we have to have an accommodation so that we get that information we need. we will be behind the eight ball when it comes to terrorism, child pornography, espionage, and the like. >> i noted that mr. gohmert had an extended period. i wonder if we could let mr. -- >> your period -- >> let me make something clear because i'm a little bit put off by that.

the chairman does initially and occasional-l give members a few extra seconds. i don't want that to necessarily set a precedent. in this case your time has far exceeded that of mr. gohmert. i would like to stay within the sked if we could. >> mr. chairman f. we could ask mr. mueller, off schedule, i think it's an enormously important issue for the country that russia and china are seeking to take over governance of the internet and i think it is something that the f.b.i. might wish to comment on. >> that might be for another time. i also notice that you and the director have agreed to have a personal meeting on some of the issues you raised which were certainly legitimate issues and i'm hoping that you will take advantage of that opportunity, too. >> i'm happy to do that. >> the gentleman from arizona, mr. franks, is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. director, glad you're here, sir. with that unceremoniously i'll yield my time to my colleague from texas, mr. gohmert.

>> thank you, appreciate my friend from arizona. i have a last, it was emailed out from the islamic society of north america director on february 14, 2012, which they were basically spiking the football. they left the meeting again with you. and they said the director's also important participants that to date nearly all related f.b.i. training materials, including more than 160,000 pages of documents were reviewed by subject matter experts multiple times. they also said material was pulled from the curriculum lum if even one component was deemed to, one, include factual errors. two, be in poor taste. three, be stereotypical, and point four --

one of the lines that had been purged simply says in training other self described jihadist groups can differ with al qaeda and like-minded groups in targeting tackical preference and their ultimate political goals, although many jihaddist groups overlap in terms of target tactics and goals. apparently that was found to be offensive to say that there were some jihadist groups that overlap in terms of target because apparently that fits the criteria of being stereotypical. and i want to go back to the subject matter experts. you mentioned as we have been told there were five subject matter experts that were doing this purge and that two of them were interagency, but three of them were outside the agency, and we know the president of the named co-conspirator in the holy land foundation trial for which there is plenty of evidence as the fifth circuit court of appeals said, to substaniate that they were supporting terrorism, even though the attorney general decided he did not want to pursue them, or his office, he didn't take credit for that decision, but -- in

fact he left that to an acting u.s. attorney to say that there wasn't evidence when actually he was on the record before the district court and the fifth circuit saying there was plenty of evidence there. but the concern still goes back to who are these subject matter experts? you were ready to give a couple of awards to people for their civic leadership and assistance that ended up not being worthy of being recognized. people that have access to you directly like most americans would not have who have ties that are certainly questionable. and so i think it is worth -- one of my friends across the aisle pointed out, america knowing who are these people that are purging our documents? and why is it so offensive to

say that many jihadist groups overlap in terms of targets and tactics and goals? do you have a comment on that? you had said you might talk about their backgrounds, but who in the world gets to know who these people were? most of us have very secure classifications even though we find out that people like wlrks b.r. on the homeland security advisory group got a secret classification from secretary napolitano and from the evidence it is very clear that man could never have been vetted, could never have gotten a security clearance unless the secretary bypassed all the laws and requirements to give him that. i just keep coming back to the importance of knowing who it is that is actually cleaning out the f.b.i. training materials?

>> well, let me say that i address the issue of -- the way forward on the individuals who try to accommodate -- and will try to accommodate the committee on that. with regard to the meeting with the american muslim, i have periodically as do our special agents in charge in each of our offices, have meetings with members and representatives of the muslim community. the meeting to which you refer was -- i gave exactly the same review the process we had undertaken to review these materials that i have given today and previous testimony. so i think we have done appropriately addressed the issues with regard to the training. again i finish as i did before and welcome you down to review the materials yourself and hear the explanations as to why we thought that these particular pages were inappropriate. again would point out that we

had 160,000-plus pages that were appropriate in terms -- it is not as if we had purged a substantial amount of our training material. >> thank you, mr. gohmert. the chairwoman from texas, ms. jackson lee, is recognized. >> mr. chairman, thank you very much. mr. mueller, good morning. how are you? thank you again for your service. looks like we have traveled this journey for a number of years>>y much. mr. mueller, good morning. how are you? thank you again for your service. looks like we have traveled this journey for a number of years and again i thank you for your work and the work that you have done even in my state of texas. i just want to make one statement. our special agent in charge are very important and i think you heard me say this continue gwen i continue to encourage them to interface with the community. obviously their work is worth it that relates to their duties, but that's just a public statement i want to make. i think you joined in with me in times past for them to engage even as they engage in local law enforcement. i, too, have a series of questions but i would make one statement and not -- to join

with my colleagues and thank you for your graciousness and like to have an opportunity to meet with you. today i will be discussing the national epidemic of bullying which we have seen. i'm not asking you to intertrude in local jurisdictions. but cyberbullying has become a epidemic as well and it's crossed state lines and it tracks, if you will, national security issues in terms of its depth and breadth. i would like to meet with you on this issue. i will not pose that question as we speak but i know we could find ways to address that because it deals with children. i do want to raise a series of questions as i indicated and i want to go right to the national defense authorization act and your testimony that mentioned that you had questions about the f.b.i. and military showing up. there was provisions to

legislation to weaken that, if you will, depth of coverage of mitt tearl. -0- -- of the military. can you quickly say that worked through your issues with respect to that separation? i think that's enormously important, including the prosecution of terrorists in civilian courts. is that where we stand today, does that help the f.b.i.? >> it does. the statute directed the president to develop procedures that would assure continuity of investigation, continuity of interrogation and like in that circumstance. that directive issued by the president does resolve those issues. >> does it move you closer to both the idea of what your work is supposed to do but also respect for civil liberties as you look at it as lawyer and former judge? >> yes. >> thank you. let me thank you very much for lab that many utilize, d.n.a. lab that many law enforcement submit their requests. can you tell me what your time frame is?

as you well know there is a huge backlog of rape kits across america. it is almost tragic that women are waiting. what is the involvement of the f.b.i. lab? are you getting these kits? are you getting them on more particular cases? more heinous cases? can you answer that question and how we can be a greater help for that backlog? >> the first step for us was reduce our own backlog. we had the backlog in terms of ingestion of samples given changes in the statutes around -- federally in the country. we reduced that backlog two years ago and last year we reduced almost nothing the backlog of nuclear d.n.a. examinations. so that was by additional personnel given to us by congress as well as developing a new, more mechanical techniques that enabled us to expedite those examinations. that does not necessarily help jurisdictions around the country who have backlogs of samples that need -- we do not have the

funding or capability federally to step in and assist state and local. i don't think there's one of us who wouldn't like to have the ability to make sure that all those tests, samples, are sitting on the shelves of the police department. went through the d.n.a. protocol. but again it's a matter of funding. particularly police departments or state agencies. >> let me ask, these two questions, and i appreciate the chairman's indulgence for you to answer. i'll add the rape kits to our discussion in office. but let me just in your answer indicate what an impact the sequestration would have in terms of staffing but i would like to go straight to two points. the stand your ground laws have

taken up their major stand across america and they have in essence created a quandary. one is mr. zimmerman's case which you have been involved in investigating. i raise the question as to what is the f.b.i. involved in in some of these cases that come in extreme results? and lastly i have heard my colleague talk a lot about muslims. what kind of teams does the f.b.i. have on domestic terrorism, particularly what i call wilderness groups, as well as this article from reuters, planning war, this happens today. do you have a separate sector? how do you relate to that kind of terrorism and how do we have the investigative component that matches or climents state authorities? >> with regard to domestic terrorism, ever since 1995 and the bombing of oklahoma city, we

have been aware that we cannot take our eye off domestic terrorist who is advocate the ability and will to undertake such terrorism. we have had a number of cases over the years, most recent was in spokane where an individual undertook the development of i.e.d.'s, to set it off on the birthday of martin luther king. if you'll recall the persons cleaning the area beforehand found the i.e.d. and we were able to identify the individual. he's sent away for a good long time. so we had a separate domestic terrorism that's every bit as effective and efficient as we hope we are in the international terrorism arena. as to the -- i didn't pick up the first part of the question. >> the impact on sequestration of employees through major cuts. >> we will, again as i said, have to prioritize. we would not take people away from counterterrorism, whether it be domestic terrorism, international. we will not take it away from the espionage cases. we will not take them away from

the important cybercases. we'll have prioritize in other areas, particularly in the criminal arena, will suffer. >> thank you, ms. jackson lee. >> can i put something in the record, please? >> what would you like to add? >> thank you, mr. mueller, we'll speak afterwards. i would like to put the article from reuters, white supremacists planning a race war. i ask unanimous consent to place this in the record. >> without objection. the gentleman from california is recognized. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. in the interest of time i want to welcome you first of all director mueller, i miss our regular meetings in the eight years i served on theit's good to see you back. what i'd like to do with the committee's concurrence is i have four, five issues i'd like to ask you a brief question.

perhaps can you give me a very short answer. and with unanimous consent you could provide us with a follow- up, maybe a couple paragraphs or something that could fill in some of the blanks. the first question i have has to do with al qaeda. questions i'll put in -- first of all, as it relates to our southwest border do you see any growing evidence of al qaeda, or any other terrorist organization looking to exploit our border with the intent of launching another terrorist attack on ourthat would be the first part of that question. the other is, have you and the in yemen the focus on targeting u.s. airplanes, of course, is becoming more and more unsettling to american travelers, as you well know, and if you see any support you

might be able to get from congress that could help you in doing that job, maybe you could briefly answer that. then i'll move on to a couple other issues. >> as to the southwest border and al qaeda, we have not seen an increase of effort by al qaeda to come across the southwest border. on the other hand, when you open the question up to other terrorist groups i would say that we have a continuing concern about iranian influence actors, and hezbollah. i would say the indication of this, most recent, the iranian dealing with a cartel associate

and the expectation of killing the saudi arabian ambassador here in washington which is indicative of temperance of iran and others to operate south of the border and impact north of the border. i am sorry. the second question with regard to yemen, the -- having obtained most recent explosive device from yemen again reinforces the necessity to address those who are responsible for the production of those devices. in yemen and the intelligence communities, law enforcement communities need the full happen. >> director mueller, regarding smuggling in human trafficking we have on our southern border, i know this continues to be an ongoing issue. one thing that i'd like to get your assessment on, particularly as it relates to the smuggling of drugs, do you see the

weakening of laws, for instance, in the california state legislature and weakening our drug laws, some to the point that many legislators believe that drug use is a victimless crime, do you see this as having any strengthening effect on the drug cartels? particularly from mexico? >> i really would not be in a position to comment on that. i'm not that familiar with it. >> i tried. ok. there is another issue that we have discussed in the past having to do with activities within our federal penitentiary. this isn't limited to federal penitentiaries, but since you are our federal representative probably you can speak more directly to the federal penitentiaries rather than the state prisons and even local jails. i have a growing concern for the infiltration of certain people operating under the guise of

very vulnerable people that are already filled with hate. i know that we have a way of vetting who comes in to counsel and so on and so forth. can you give us a brief statement on the process of vetting and/or surveillance to make sure our vetting is correct? >> literal on after september 11 -- early on afgter -- after september 11, federal department of prisons to assure that the appropriate teaching, again appropriate teaching was being conducted within the federal department of prisons. so that has been an ongoing process since probably 2002. at the same time we have over 100 joint terrorism task forces around the country. one of the mandates of that joint terrorism task force is to see and develop intelligence as to what threats may be within

the prison system? many of the state and local prison systems, and on many -- some, maybe many, of the task forces you will have personnel assigned on the state and local prison authorities, corrections authorities who work closely with the joint terrorism task force to address that concern. >> mr. chairman, the red light is on. if i could just ask that the director respond to us and follow up on a couple other issues. one being you mentioned the issue of health care fraud. we discussed this before in this hearing, in this meeting venue i think last time about medicare fraud and principally eastern european involvement. if you could bring us up-to- date on that also on the gang issues in some of the metropolitan areas, particularly where illegal immigrants are the

predominant population. with that, mr. chairman, with unanimous consent, i would ask that he -- the gentleman answer those for the sake of the committee be placed in the record in the hearing and i yield back. >> thank you. the gentlewoman from california, ms. waters, is recognized. " >> thank you very much. you have a tough job. sometimes we don't make it any easier for you but i'm pleased that you're here. interested in. diversity with respect to agents. as you know this question has come up many times. it appears you still only havei want to know why you haven't been able to do better in recruitment and hiring of african-americans in f.b.i.? addition to that i'm really

concerned about some information i just learned -- i attend add organized by the washington bureau of the american civil liberties union and they shared with me some very troubling information that i want to talk about because it reminds me of the most controversial f.b.i. program i think under j. edgar hoover, that caused a lot of concern in this community. the f.b.i.'s current domestic investigation and operations guide permit f.b.i. agents to track racial and ethnic facilities and certain racial and ethnic behaviors. documents recently obtained from requested by the aclu demonstrates how the f.b.i. is identifying and mapping american communities by race, eth nation it, and national origin all over the country to a program you have called domain management. the documents show that f.b.i. analysts across the country are asocial greating criminal behaviors -- associating

criminal behaviors with certain racial and ethnicities. using u.s. census status to map where those communities are located to investigate them. for instance, in 2009 the atlanta f.b.i. field office published an intelligence note from your domain management that purports to exam the threat in part by documenting the growth of the black population in georgia. i want to know how does the size of the black population in georgia have any bearing on the number of black separatists in a given area? did the f.b.i. map black communities in georgia in its examination of the black separatist threat? concernedthing i'm about is the atlanta f.b.i. field office intelligence, those documents show the new black panther party, as former congresswoman cynthia mckinney's ties during the election, and they appeared at events protesting.

police balance in the community. we also have information that indicates that congresswoman cynthia mckinney has been under surveillance and has been tracked for quite some time now. does the f.b.i. feel that participation in the political process or protesting police constitutes a threat of any kind? do you think it's appropriate for the f.b.i. to track americans' first amendment protected activity in this way? does the f.b.i. list of major terrorism cases past and present, are more comprehensive list that terrorist attacks going back to 1930, detailed in a f.b.i. report entitled terrorism, 2002 to 2005, include any terrorist act committed by anyone who could fairly be scrind as a member of a black -- be described as a member of a black separatist group? that's a lot that i have asked, but i'm really interested, do you have a program called domain management simlar --

>> we have -- yes, we have domain managers. we have a program that requires our intelligence analysts who identify a threat in a particular area, and an aspect of that program may depend on the threat information we got from asourcing or inside the united states or outside the united states. let me start by saying we do not investigate individuals or groups solely on the basis of ethnicity or race. there may be occasions where we know a particular entity, it can be a gang a. terrorist group, it can be organized crime, preys on certain groups in communities, and in those situation where is there may be strings or what have you, the data in terms of those communities may bear on that intelligence analysis.

>> domain management is that directed towards? >> pardon. >> is domain management program is that directed towards certain communities? >> no. it's the threats. mortgage fraud in the community of los angeles, where is the mortgage fraud? domain management means look at your particular division or district and identify the threats and the existence of those threats and how you're going to address that threat. that's domain management. that's identifying the threats and how you go -- have to allocate the resources to address the threats. >> what is mapping? >> the gentlewoman's time has expired. >> unanimous consent for at least one more minute. >> let me say, without objection she'll be recognized for 30 seconds. in order to allow the director to answer. >> is cynthia mckinney under surveillance? tracked by this report?

>> i don't know where that comes from. i do not think it has any validity whatsoever. >> it's in your report. >> then i appreciate seeing it. aim not familiar with what -- i am not familiar with what you're looking at. >> thank you. >> thank you, ms. waters. the gentleman from iowa, mr. king, is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. testimony here today. i'll start with low key material. i'm looking at our report here at d.o.j. victims' report, typical crime victim's report it -- report, and its has on it the categories of age, skearble attainment -- educational attainment, school, etc., race, ethnicity, all categories i think we should be tracking as far as crime is concerned for the victim report. that's fine. the next one i look at is the hate crime incident report and it has similar categories, maybe not exactly identical, but it has categories for race and

ethnicity as well in the hate crime incident report. then when you go to the uniform crime report, the older report, that's the model e-3 for the -- mod will -- module e-3 for the record it has categories there for race but no category for ethnicity. white, black, american indian, alaska native or asian or pacific islander. it doesn't have a category as the other two for mixed race. i ask if that perhaps is an oversight? something you consider bringing up to date so that our typical crime report would include the broader definitions of mixed race and ethnicity? >> i'm not certain why that is. i know -- well, i assume what we try to do is take that information, where that information is relevant, particular violation of law. but i would look at that. i'm not familiar with that distinction. we'll get back to you on that. >> appreciate that. i just state that i'm interested in it because there are a lot of numbers thrown around about actual crime,

perpetrators, and victims, and this congress is going towards far much more towards looking at the race and ethnicity of the vibblingtims of -- the victim's of the crimes. george zimmerman case in florida is one that comes to mind. some i'll be interested in that response. also i would ask you with regard to voter fraud there's been more publicity about voter fraud in the last few months. something i have been interested in for at least a decade or a little more since the 2000 elections in florida, what are you finding in voter fraud? do you anticipate prosecutions coming forward? has anything happened under your tenure that should be pointed out to me that i might have missed as far as voter fraud investigations? >> i again would have to get back to you. obviously the allegations of voter fraud spike in or about elections. we have to go back and look at what -- yes, we have done cases. >> did you get a call -- >> i'm not personally familiar and can't tell you right now those cases.

>> did you get a call when the young man presented himself to pick up attorney general eric holder's ballot here a couple months snoog was that something brought to your attention? i know in the video that came before this committee about a month ago a young white male in his early 20's stepped into the voting location and i believe it was arlington, virginia, and presented himself as eric holder, 61-year-old african- american male, young caucasian male in the early 20's, they were ready to present him a bat local. -- present him with a ballot. would that kind of thing be of interested to the fib anybody? >> this is the first i heard of that incident. >> i'm quite surprised at that. i guess maybe the attorney general wasn't alarmed either his vote might have been disenfranchised so easily. i'll go on to something that i am perhaps more concerned about. and that is the publicity that's this week and i would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a news week article

dated may 14, 2012, titled why can't obama bring wall street to justice. forbes magazine article dated may 7, 2012, titled obama's d.o.j. and wall street too big to jail. these are subjects -- part of the record. >> thank you. these articles point out that attorney general hold earn his lieutenants have at least published in the documents, history of bundling funds as much as half a million or more dollars for the campaign of the president coming from covington, a number of them, who have clients that might have been those clients that are under investigation because of the wall street meltdown in 2008, i point out that in 2009 the president established the financial fraud enforcement task force. that task force has brought some prosecutions. small little petty crimes by comparison. and one example a case we have goldman sachs settling for a

$550 million settlement to the s.e.c.. no criminal prosecution. so in the pattern of the financial history since 2008, can you point out any criminal investigations for the alleged perpetrators that brought about or might have accelerated this wall street meltdown we saw in 2008? >> absolutely. i will get you those. there have been a number of prosecutions up in new york. i will get you those. i will say there is full support with the department of justice, regardless of case that we had. >> and in closing, director, and i mean closing, mr. chairman, underneath jimmy carter, it was that the appearance of conflict is as dangerous in the ministry of justice as true conflict itself. justice must not only be done.

justice must also be seen to be done. >> thank you. the gentleman from puerto rico. >> thank you, mr. chairman, director mueller. you have one of the most challenging jobs, which you perform with great skill. director, i would like to talk to you about the drug-related violence that we are seeing in puerto rico and the u.s. virgin islands and to express my respectful but strong views that the fbi and other federal law enforcement agencies need to do far more to deal with this problem. let me briefly summarize a situation. while violent crime has decreased nationally, others have been on the rise.

the homicide rates in each territory is about six times the national average and almost, almost three times higher. puerto rico has nearly the same number of murders each year that texas does, even though texas is home to 25 million people, and the puerto rican population does not reach 4 million. three-quarters of the homicides in puerto rico are linked to the international drug trade. what is happening is this is like a moving target. drug traffickers are changing routes. this is a problem of national scope. about three-quarters of the cocaine that enters pr is then transported. because puerto rico is part of the u.s.. it is not a foreign country.

this is not even delivered to the states. in order to reduce drug-related violence and to make this a less attractive transition point, both the governor of puerto rico and i are establishing a caribbean border initiative. now, we have a northern border initiative. what is happening is there is no emissions' -- no initiative across agencies, and the consequences are crystal clear. tens of thousands of my constituents, and i have to say, if this was happening, this

would be an outrage, a national emergency. i am not the only one those who believes that they have yet to dedicate their resources and personnel necessary to address these problems. the appropriations bill includes the following language. and i quote. the committee is aware that this has affected the crime rates in the caribbean. they expect the attorney general to address this trend with areas substantially affected and i know. i am the first one realizes there is a constraint, but this is a matter of prioritizing

limited resources and responding in relation to things. they are doing terrific work. but i do not believe you have enough of them down there. not only the fbi but the other agents. all i am asking is that we deal with this with a sense of urgency. i like to hear at least briefly. >> there may be three aspects that i need to address. one is the drug trafficking in the results of dea. the third is the homicide rate. you are right. they are horrendous. in any other city, it should be the principal focus.

the third is public corruption. our efforts have been in some of the violent side into the drug trafficking. often with the game lookgangs, s the turf. our issues are directed at addressing the homicide rates. you have hundreds. we had one day you are familiar with. we literally are arrested over 100 police officers who were involved in this. we prioritize this and put our efforts in these particular efforts. one person is behind bars. >> thank you. >> the gentleman from california is recognized.

>> without objection. it the gentleman from south carolina is recognized. >> because of this exemplary service, i am going to let him go before me and i will go last. >> what a nice fellow. i was recalling as a kid growing up, one of the starts was a halfback. he was the highly recruited player at the time. i think he had to wonder scholarship offers. he was in the first class of fbi agents which included blacks.

always remember this. the fbi can do better as was suggested. as a kid, i remember him being a hero who went to the fbi. it was exciting to see that happen. >> let me ask you this. i am always concerned about the proper relationship between the executive and legislative branch. i am deeply aware of the tremendous job the fbi and department of justice does. it also should be done in the proper way. this was a black mark on the department. the conduct of the fbi agent has

been called into question. he failed to write memos including the government's key witness. it provided information favorable to defendants. also had an additional one that is required under law. these are disturbing. i have always thought when you find the improper conduct by officials that action need to be taken, not only because it is a matter of justice but because you make it clear to others that such action will not be tolerated. direct and specific and immediate recourse will be taken. can you tell us what has happened in that case? >> we have two agents.

this person is going to the process at this juncture. i appreciate that. ted stevens died in a plane at some time ago. he was defeated in this election in part because of the actions that were taken against him by the department of justice and the fbi agents. it is little solace to people who i believe by attempting to serve this country well that an

agency required to apply the law and being a coequal branch of government had that improper activity. msf been some improper because the courts seem to think it was. here we are and nothing has taken place. i know you want to be fair about it. is there could be resolution? >> there has been an investigation. the individual has a right to present this. >> yet he does. elected officials and appointed officials have a right to be treated fairly by the executive branch. i know you take this seriously. i know your history. we investigated and propagated all sorts of people.

the point is on the other side of that i think you have an obligation. they have an obligation to be absolutely fair because if in fact you make an error, yet not only done an injustice to the individuals but to their constituencies whose decision is free burrs are individuals in the voting booth have made this based on improper information. i would tell this would-be, there needs to be some posture to suggest that at least publicly if the consequences flow from it they should understand that you should make it properly. i am not sure this message is out there.

my time is up. i think the gentlemen for being upset generous -- i think the did the man for being so generous. >> the gentleman from california has been so gracious. he is recognized. >> i want to start by thanking me for your service to our country as a director of the bureau. as i did last time, i want to complement the agents. they are always extremely well- prepared. they are professional. if you ever have a chance to tell them, i know a word from someone they respect would mean a lot to them. my first question is more a therapeutic grants. with the trial going on a will, to have a female prosecutors

suggest what they ought to have on, to have a defendant take his shirt off and trout, and to have them claim that their religion was not allow them to look at women who are dressed a certain way but the same religion does not prevent them from stoning the rape victims and burning withiwomen with a jet fuel is outrageous to me. i do not expect to comment unless you want to. the notion that we were ever going to try this case in the media center of the world to give it an even bigger platform to these the defendants, i had judges come down a lot harder than me because i poured water in a cup to loud and then as a judge is coming down on these attorneys. i doubt there is a thing in the

world but you can do about it. when i read about it and when i juxtaposed that with the way american defendants and american prosecutors and defense attorneys are treated, it it just strikes me that we are contorting ourself like an olympic gymnast to want the world to think that we are fair with animals. we do not ever vote the same way. i do nothing. if we have, it has been by accident. we do agree on this. there is a notion that when poor people steal they go to jail and one which people still sometimes they get invited to congressional hearings. the former governor of new jersey. i do not have an idea whether that constitutes a crime. it sure looks like it does.

you have these statistics. i would just encourage you to let the public know that there are prosecutions and convictions and being meted out with respect to financial fraud. the notion that poor people go to jail and rich people don't is planned to destroy our judicial system. i will give you a chance to comment. i know you said there are once going on. i asked you to get the word out. i ask you to get the word out to the public sees that there are consequences. >> you make a valid point. with each successful prosecution there'll be an article in the paper. we could do a better job of pushing gather the full portrait. this is a good suggestion that

we will follow up with. >> you have a remarkable career. it seems like we focus on this. these give blended together. some of my constituents have asked me if there is any way we could see how often these are used or how pervasive in certain parts of the country. the more information we can give to a site to demystify -- give to demystifyth this, i wish we were more aggressive and delaying the feels that people have that we are striking the balance too much in favor of government

intervention in the privacy. >> i will have to see what parts are public and what we do with regard to the act. the fact we have very few agents around the country. people think that we are far more prevalent i think that we actually are. if you look around and see, if there is anything that has been other than helped, i want tit to be brought to my attention. we have organized criminals, terrorists. that is what we do. we help the public recognize that. in the absence of any other activities with understanding that there fbi agent as their neighbor and friend. in the defender of the community. >> thank you.

>> thank you. thank you for being here today. our hearing has been concluded. we appreciate your testimony. several members have asked to follow up with the. i am sure that will be able to be accomplished. we'll continue to be in touch. without objection, if they will do this for the record. the hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> >> coming up, karl rove discusses the 2012 election. then a senate hearing on the extension of the flood insurance program and mitt romney makes a campaign appearance in oklahoma

city. >> i remain optimistic about the future of indian and the united states. -- the future of the media and the united states. we spent a great deal of time talking about what is broken. to some degree that is the nature of their business. we should also have confidence that the unique american experiment is alive and well and our political system still can work. >> senator richard lugar lost to richard murdock. look back at his sixth term career and the senate floor and in hearings winning his work in the 1990's on a nuclear disarmament program in the union. this is all archived in searchable at the c-span video library. >> no. now is discussion about the strategies in the 2012 election.

carl rove and joe trippi took place in a debate. this is two hours and 20 minutes. i am the editorial editor of the "wall street journal." i am pleased to welcome you here. delighted you're here. we hope to do this on vacation three or four times during the year. it is great to have you here in this turn not for an interesting inaugural events. we have two experts here, karl

rove, the star of stage and screen. before that, a deputy white house chief of staff and of the revival of the republican party in texas. a sometime is debater on television. he is a noted democratic strategist and innovators in the use of the internet in political campaigns. this also the man who helped to bring howard dean that close to winning the democratic nomination. he was one shot away from the presidency.

he has helped with the jerry brown's campaign in california in 2010 as well as many campaigns overseas. we are going to have a final conversation. i want to start. we will open up to questions. i want to start by saying if we can get into the head of the campaigns as they are right at this stage in the election cycle. they're trying to size of the challenges they face. i want to start with you. i want to ask you of things to talk about from the obama campaign. you ran an incumbent reelection campaign. you know what it is like to be 48% approval, no sure thing. what is the obama team thinking about the challenges and what they need to do? >> their two ways to answer

that. one is what challenges they have and what have beeone challenges they don't know. they have spent a lot of time working on this of battleground states. he has held more fund-raisers than all of his predecessors back to ronald reagan combined in their entire campaigns. >> don't you in the that? >> in a way i do. as somebody who is but inside the white house, if you get that 130 presidential fund-raisers that that is an enormous drain on the present time. he does have a day job. there's a constant tension between doing the job you're supposed to be doing in trying to run for reelection. he has already had more than 2.5 times as many fund-raisers as bush had its entire re-election even though that they began the

elections at the same time. he has had that advantage. he has a very large apparatus aimed at persuading in getting out the vote that is an army persuasion. they have the advantage of 12 years' worth of advances in the internet and applications and technology that will allow them to do interesting things. they have the advantage of money. they will not get to the billion dollars they leaked to abc last april. -- $2 billion the league to abc last april. i think they will get close to $700 million. they do have the advantage of getting out there early. the natural thing is the presidential job approval. we had 49 at this point.

i think the job approval matters. elections are not simply one number. they are very complex equation. the thing i would look at is the other number that matters, do the american people see you as a leader? there's a very weak condition. do the american people see you as having accomplished some big things that are popular. the stimulus is seen as a profound failure. this is the only piece of modern social legislation that has become less popular after the passage. you can not find this and any other legislation. even the '64 civil rights act is more popular 6 and 12 months later in the south than was when

it was passed. it is the biggest challenge the bay have. romney is weird. he wears a strange underwear. it is effective in some elements. he is the most rapacious of the los some creature in america, someone who exist on wall street. they will not be very subtle. they do not have a good handle on them. what you want to re-elect him? he is a leader who is confronted the challenges and got as moving in the right way. the recession ended in 2009. the recent poll shows 75% of the people still think we're in a recession. they have a real challenge. he have to run for reelection on

the basis that i have done things that you do not agree with that you have to conclude i did the right thing. >> if you are able to do that on the war? >> a bush was seen as a strong leader. but some people say i like him personally which is good for obama. but they do not like what he has done. they need to say i like you and i feel like i can relate to you. i know what you have done. i know what it is that you what to do. you seem like a strong and steady leader. in a pinch i'm going to go with you. it is that last part of it. do they see him as a strong leader? it is thought enough to say osama bin laden is dead.

they know they're starting with a stronger a lecturer base. they also understand this election will come down to a handful of states. they're in a very tough reelection battle. >> talk about the difficulty with accomplishments. you can argue the auto bailout is michigan. of course the killing of been laosama bin laden is popular. what do they do with the achievements they not as popular as they would like? >> they are moving forward.

the insinuation would take us back. i think that is going to work for them if romney does not put any bold ideas out there. romney has not put out a big election. he is busily running on that he is not obama. the one thing i disagree with is on the money side of things. i think this comes down to maybe five states. i do not think arizona is in play. this is one to come down to three or four states, probably

virginia, ohio, and florida. we can quibble over other states. in the end, that will come down to -- it could come not who is better on the ground. we have all these bigger issues that we are talking about. >> you just mean getting your voters to the poll. >> we're now starting to see obama would democrats 10% higher energy than republicans. that has totally flipped from the beginning of the primaries. i do not believe obama is only going to get 700 million. they are spending the bulk of their money on online ads that are what we used to do in direct

mail solicitation. he would go out and lose money trying to get people to buy a subscription now. here is an idea. on the day that the obama campaign was over in 2008, they had 110,000 twitter followers. today it is 15 million. they have a targeted list and they have built the millions of americans. 3 million people gave them $500 million. if that goes to $5 million, given the scale of the network -- 5 million people, given the scale of the network, when they go into recess listen, they will get up above $1 billion.

that is not the thing that matters the most. the romney campaign has not build the effort and a lot of these states that the obama campaign has on the ground. millions of people are going to be out there. think otherse ar are not as energized. the republicans missed out on the importance of building a network. i know this is not quite like the standard talks. it is going to be the economy this time, too. the network is this time. they know it. in the end, this could end up being the differential in terms of who wins the election. >> duck have to have a larger

thing to sell to these people? -- don't you have to have a larger thema to sell to these people? what is the presence message going to be? message going to be? >> you have romney yesterday talking about he took credit for saving the automobile industry. it is not your ji-- what is thee that is going to either one to excite their base and its move to them?to ts tend to benc

anti-incumbent. forget about the race. they tend to be moving against anybody that is in. i think independents will be a bigger edge for romney. i think this is going to be about do we go back or forward? that is what the president wants to make this about. bromley says it is about moving forward. we have to have some ideas. so far he has avoided them. or marrying onto ideas like paul ryan and others that i think are not going to sell. they're not his ideas for the most part. >> two minor point.

obama does not have the enthusiasm among his donors. the go back to the people who supported it, you expect a lot of them who are getting going again. 7% range.er that says to me that there is a disappointment among the donors. this week they're asking to send $3 to have your name put in the hat so that the president obama come see your state he will give you a shout out during his speech. this may be smart marketing. it speaks to a profound absence of message and a disappointment. it is but what is the price

point at which some and says"3 bucks, shit, i can put that in." >> that is the next step. when you acquire somebody on some bases, give us money because we are going to do x and stand up for israel and that universal health care. what ever reason it is you solicited them on is the reason they can renew. you might get lucky. he might have dinner the presence of the united states. both sides will have armies of persuasion. the democrats will build this on internet technology and applications and the web a.

will social characteristics of joe and matching up with other people. >> he did that beautifully. >> feeling that of the people in his neighborhood to do that. -- he leaned back up with people in his neighborhood to do that. people who were the chairman of the bone bank -- phone bank. the republican national chairman understands this and has been working behind the scenes to firm that up and have

him there. one says we're going to use the nternet and take joe tri [[ppi and he will link him up and other says he will link him up with people like himself and the communities they can reach out. both of them will work. the question is how well will edward? may come down to a person or two of the boat. one or two of the vote. >> take of joe's point of mitt romney and his message.

he is arguing, and they're having critics who made the same point. the mayor romney has not put together -- he has been able to attack the president. he is not the together a real message. >> since you wrote a column on this, i would be an idiot. i am not stupid. i agree. it is easy for romney to cure that problem than for obama to fix this problem. it is easier for romney to reach back. he has talked about his vision for the future. some of this stuff is good. the raw material is bell.

there. 's problem is that they blew it. the time to set up the election is not in the election year. it is in the previous year. screw the politics. keep focused on your job. that is where you said the image of what you're all about and then build on it. the biggest mistake they made was having an on substantive address last year. can you tell me what the theme of this year state of the union address is? i cannot. imagine what would happen if lacher president obama stood up

and said we need to have fundamental tax reform. it would have been fundamental tax reform. what if he said there are some things that i like me may not get the grand bargain. there seems to be widespread agreement. i will work to get it done. if he had done that, we would say that he is the leader. he knows what he wants to do. he has given us a sense of these big problems. we need to deal with this deficit problem. what if he said that i'm going to scrub the budget. what if he had done that last year? he would have absolutely taken

the air out of the republican tires and the moving ahead. we have done these things together last year. i am going to naturally build on him. we have the buffett role which he laid out last august and refused to submit a piece of legislation. he finally put it in february. his people knew what it was. $47 billion of income over the next 10 years. we are going to give $47 billion. please. not serious. >> tax reform are adequate.

you do not think so far rummy? >for romney? >> in a couple of months he's going to say he treated more private-sector jobs. -- say he created more private sector jobs. as bad as things are when we're in the worst economy we have had in my lifetime, something is right. the guy is the head and everyone in the swing states. he is winning among women and latinos. there's almost such a dislike that they're not seen the

glass half full. he has turned the corner. the american people want to see the glass half full, it too. the problems here are the intangibles. does greece and france and europe really move so quickly that it impacts the american economy even if it is not felt here people start to lose more confidence again? that would be deadly. >> if you get worse. no president has been reelected with a number that love. 64 say we are on the right track. this morning, if you turn the

corner, it is 44 obama and 47 romney. there was a front-page article of usa today. obamacare beads and battleground states 47-45. i read the whole article with the context provided. he carried these by more than 54%. mccain got over 45%. here we are and obama is seven points below where he was an romney is where mccain was. romney only needs to win five and he wins the election. >> that is true.

abominates to win the carry states. -- barack obama needs to win the carry states. the problem is romney cannot win those states with the differential he is learning what latinos. these are state were off three have sizable enough minority representation with latinas. she cannot lose that 68 or 19. get him one of them.

you get into this. this is going to be fought out on the issues and go forward. she has not done anything. we're going to have all that fighting. there is plenty plenty of money on both sides. it is going to be the most-an election that we have ever seen. you have a president with approval rating of 47, below 50. yet the congress with approval ratings the lowest ebb ever been in history. you have a republican nominee who starts off with the favorable as of any nominee of any party as ever been at this stage. they're all gone to talk about the positive visions of the future.

it is going to be that kind of campaign. regardless of the two campaigns, even if they decided they were going to do something different, the super pacs will have a different view. in the end, it is going to get down to the things that we talked about. i know we talked about the bigger issues. it is going to be how romney does the issues. it could get down to like how he closes the gap with hispanics. if he does not, it really forces them to start getting into a situation where there only a few states left.

>> what was john mccain? >> 31. >> mccain had 5 million fewer republicans turn out to vote. >> the republican national committee's hispanic liaison yesterday said candidates romney does not yet know what his immigration policy is. >> he also has a big advantage. take a look at the ads inside the latino community.

here's an issue of jobs and here is the issue of immigration. heaney is to really drive from the economic issues. -- he need to really drive home the economic issues. if romney only carries the mccain states, states like texas, georgia, utah, arizona, gained electoral college votes. it is already closer the carries those. think about it. in indiana i think it is back. as having dinner with mitch daniels. is there a white democratic south of indianapolis who is for obama that is not a college professor in bloomington? he said not that i can think of.

there are 39 alecto college votes. -- a lecture a college votes. correct do you believe those are test dates for obama it? >> virginia will be the toughest for romney and the best for obama. this whole thing really could come down to virginia. what is fascinating about that, the irony is that it is largely on his pro-choice message.

part of the reason virginia is a problem for romney right knelt is because -- right now is because of the governor passing the ultrasound abortion measure their in the state. >> requiring an older son for abortion. ultrasound for abortion. >> what it has done, this gives that whole forward, back thing. virginia could be the most fascinating an important state in the country and how it deals with a cross pressures that are going on. >> we agree on the three.

>> here is a national shift from democrat in 2004 or 2008. they were one with a narrow margin. -- won with a narrow margin. i think florida is largely possible to wind up in the romney camp. if the republicans when the five states, all romney need to do to win the white house is when new hampshire or pennsylvania or michigan or wisconsin or iowa or colorado born in mexico or nevada and and he is president of the united states. >> that is where we get into the niche demographic. if he cannot -- i agree with

carl. he can win with 31 some of the latino vote. -- 31 % of the latino vote. he can win the presidency. >> to people have problems with latinos. -- two people have problems with latinos. romney and obama. the approval of the president is at or above the national average for decline. why? i have a hint of it in some american crossroads focus groups. we have said let's get latino voters whose principal language in the home is spanish. people who are not partisan. you are not talking about people who are clued into a lot of american politics. they do not participate.

there are all kinds of barriers and attitudes. it cannot be here in this room voluntarily. those are the attitudes. i'm worried about my job. everything is getting expensive. she had complete control. they knew he had never put forward a bill. and not been done. this is just politics. if the immigration issue is going to cut, it only has to be lack of enthusiasm and lot of enthusiasm for obama. it is not there. >> romney has backed himself

into a corner in the primaries. the administration will come out and say are you for the dream at or not? if yes surge in the armed forces are want to go to college, -- if you want to serbs in the armed forces or what to go to college, there is a path. it'll be popular news. >> the primary did cost some damage to the brahmi/gop brand -- romney/gop brand.

i think santorum and others did so much on contraception and abortion. they're opening up the role. >> i agree with you. >> i like how we fixate on the gap that romney has among women. obama has a bigger gap among men. we have two guys that both have a gender issue problem. obama cannot close its with men. romney cannot close it with women.

>> i do not disagree. if everything stays the same, obama wins. if he stays in, obama abuses. >> i've been in one of those elections. it was not 33%. >> those are all good points.

the thing that really does matter is what does romney do that you're talking about ohio and florida. there is a reason why portman and rubio, i think would be a great pick. they have some opportunities to replace those states. that is going to have some impact. i agree. if he can win the three that have traditionally gone to

indiana or north carolina, we both agree virginia could be a dogfight in go either way, then he has got to win florida and ohio. that is why how he goes could impact that. >> [unintelligible] >> if you believe robert caro, he carried the state because he stole it. >> what else is new? >> rahm emanuel is running chicago.

>> when did a vice presidential candidates really make a difference and carry a state? >> i am saying that is going into their thinking. the average vice-presidential candid has less than half a point in fact in the national increase in% their home state. a feature of the total and drop it 2 adn raise romney 2%, it could be the first time in becomes positive. if wisconsin is wisconsin of 2004 any put a pall ryan on the ticket, bush loses the state by

5000 votes. most of the time it does make an impact. in the last 50 years since 1960, what the vice presidential candidates twice moved more of the boat in his home state that increase the vote total by reaching out across party lines and getting people to support the ticket?

they had gore -- the election was so close. the reason it has not mattered is because [unintelligible] would it really have mattered to be picked for bp? >> your choice of the go with someone like a portman or a rubio that can help you with a state? how about ryan? >> you have to be doubling down on a lot of issues. it is going to be tough.

if he ekes out a narrow victory in wins 51-49 and a problem means wisconsin is not a play.

. .

if you will please proceed. >> good morning, chairman smith and members of the committee. i want to thank you for the opportunity to appear today and for your continued support of the men and women and the api. -- fbi. as you know, the bureau has undergone change. we have referred to as our efforts to prevent emerging -- refocused our efforts to prevent emerging terrorist threats. the thread is more diverse than it was 10 years ago but today we are better prepared to meet that threat. we also face complexed threats to its cyber security. sophisticated criminal groups and hackers for hire are stealing trade secrets and valuable research from america's companies and agencies. national security is not our only concern. as we remain committed to our

criminal programs. billion dollar investment fraud, mortgage fraud have undermined the world's financial system and victimized investors, homeowners, and taxpayers. while crime rates may be down, there are crimes against children and transnational crime. as a threat to continue to of all, so must the fbi to prevent those threats before they occur. in doing so, we are relying on our law enforcement and private sector partners more than ever before. the fbi remains committed to carrying out our mission, while protecting the civil liberties of the systems we serve. let me begin with a threat that remains our top priority, oxide is decentralize but it is -- al

qaeda is decentralized but it is committed to attacks against the west as we can see from the documents seized from osama bin laden. al qaeda affiliates represent the top threat to the nation. aqap has attempted several a attacks including a failed christmas day airline bombing and the attempted bombing of u.s.-bound cargo planes in 2010. we are currently exporting an ied device ceased overseas similar to devices used by aqap in the past. we are also concerned about homegrown extremists. they have no typical profile and their motives are also distinct which makes them difficult to stop. these cases illustrate why we must continue to enhance our intelligence capabilities and

to share information to make sure the critical information gets to the right people before any harm is done. let me turn to counterintelligence. we still confront traditional espionage, and today's spies are also researchers, business people, or operators of front companies. they seek not only state secrets but intellectual property and insider information from government businesses and american universities. we are also seeing a growing number insider threat when employees use their legitimate access to steal secrets for the benefit of another company or the benefit of another country. the counterintelligence threat is merging with the cyber threat. so much a sensitive data is stored on computer networks, our adversaries find it as effective to steal secrets through cyber intrusions.

it has evolved over the past decade. it ranges from a nation states is exploiting weaknesses in our computer networks to hackers that seek information for sale to the highest bidder and groups intent on a pioneering their own forms of digital anarchy. we have built up an expertise to address these threats at home and abroad. we have squads in each of our offices with more than a thousand agents analysts and friends expansionists. -- forensic specialists. we have 63 offices that cover the globe and assist in addressing this threat. the national cyber investigated joint task force brings together 20 law enforcement, military, and intelligence agencies to predict future attacks. with our partners at the cia,

nsa, and the secret service we're targeting cyber threats facing our nation let me address our financial crimes. the fbi continues to focus on the most egregious offenders of mortgage fraud. at the end of last year, we had nearly 2600 mortgage fraud investigations nationwide and a majority of these cases including losses greater than a million dollars. over the past four years, we have tripled the number of agents investigating mortgage fraud. working with our partners, our agents are using intelligence, surveillance, computer analysis, and corporations to find the key players behind mortgage fraud. turning to health care fraud, health care spending makes up about 18% of the total economy.

that presents an attractive target for criminals. so much so we lose tens of billions of dollars each year to fraud. the fbi and justice department continue to bring a record number of cases involving hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud. since its inception in 2007, medicare fraud has charged more than 1300 defendants who have falsely billed the medicare program for more than four billion dollars. the most recent uniform crime report indicates an violent crime continues to fall. as we know, this does not represent every community. live and crime, including gang -- violent crime, including gang

activity, continues to pose a problem. we also continue to confront organized crime. today's organized crime is marked by sophisticated enterprises that run multibillion-dollar schemes, everything from human trafficking to health care fraud and from computer intrusions to intellectual property theft. the annual cost to the u.s. economy is estimated to be in the tens of billions of dollars. the fbi remains vigilant to keep children safe and to stop a child predators'. there are partnerships with international law enforcement, we are able to investigate crimes across jurisdictional boundaries. for our child adduction teams, the office of the victim assistance, and numerous outreach programs, the fbi is

working to make the world a safer place for our children. chairman smith, thank you for the opportunity to discuss our priorities as it stands today. the fbi has cheated -- acheived transformation over the years that would not have been possible without the support of congress and the american people. crescive for the opportunity to -- thank you for the opportunity to appear here today. >> let me recognize myself for some questions. i mentioned the fact that fisa is going to expire at end of this year. how important is it that we continue those amendments and should we seek to improve them in anyway? >> we have seen over the last several days with regard to the

ied that terrorism should be, is and should be our number one priority in the number one priority of a number of our agencies. the amendments that are up for passage again, they are essential in our efforts to address this threat. not only us, the fbi has access to information that enables us to identify persons within the united states and without the united states that would put us -- and our intelligence agencies to operate overseas to pull in this information so that we can put together the information we need to prevent attacks. it is essential in remains

essential. >> if you can think of any way we can improve it, that would be helpful as well. i appreciate that. let me go to the next subject, the crisis we have all along our southern border. i know you are as aware of that as anyone. as an example, last week there were 23 people killed directly across the border from texas. to say they were killed is a euphemism. most of them were mutilated and tortured. the problem is perhaps getting worse but i wanted to get your feeling about what more we could do in this country to address the drug-trafficking problem we how long our border and what the fbi might be doing. >> our focus -- first of all, corruption. we have a number of squads, and

task forces that have addressed things on our side of the border as a result of the amounts of money that are generated through drug- trafficking south of the border. we have task forces addressing kidnapping across the border, with other federal authorities to address that particular phenomenon which has decreased somewhat in the last couple of years. the most important part of it is the accumulation of intelligence that can help our partners south of the border. we have a large office in mexico city. we have a number of offices along the border. we have a focus back at headquarters. our efforts have been to consolidate that and integrate it with the intelligence

developed by others and pass that intelligence on to our counterparts. >> one of the fastest-growing crimes in america is child pornography on the internet, which has been increasing at about 150% for each of the last 10 years. what more can the fbi do to address this crime which points to the least innocent among us as being the primary victims? >> we have a number of agencies that work with themselves -- by themselves on the internet and but also in task forces around the country. we also have a task force in maryland where we rotate individuals from various

countries to help us address the purveyors of child pornography on the internet, wherever they may be in the world. on the one hand, child pornography, we are developing new rules so we can identify the persons who are putting this stuff on the internet and making our investigations more affective coupled with the growth of our counterparts overseas. this is a worldwide phenomenon. and to have any impact, we have to have a global reach. >> my time is up. the gentleman from michigan is recognized. >> thank you, chairman smith. we have the least three points i have made in my opening statement that i would like to review with you.

the over criminalization that has become a custom inside the criminal justice system in america. in which we put away more of our citizens than any other country on earth. and for longer periods of time the second thing is the prejudicial muslim materials that were pulled from fbi training that were so slanderous. the third issue and is a flawed fbi lab forensic work that sent a lot of people to prison, many of whom are still there. could you take your time and

let's go through these to get there? >> on your first one, the point about over incarceration. i believe that any discussion about that warns looking at the crimes for which there is incarceration. it is difficult to generalize or to reach some sort of understanding or make progress with that generalization. there are some areas which need to be harsher in terms of penalties. we are going into the cyber arena in the next number of years and there should be substantial penalties for those persons who abuse their capabilities in the cyber arena. let me talk about the counterterrorism training issue that you have raised. last summer, it came to our

attention that there were materials in our training material that was inappropriate, in bad taste. it may have also depicted stereotypes. it was brought to our attention internally and externally. we put together a panel of experts from within the euro and -- bureau and other agencies and the government, persons with credentials from places like yale and princeton to review material sent to get very touched and document of what -- and put togethr er a whatstone document of should be taught. we needed a closer review of this. we pulled together 30 personnel to go through the training materials. we went through 160,000 documents and 1000 videos of the training and found that

there were 876 documents that were inappropriate. we have removed those from our training. we had to put into place a screening mechanism to ensure our agents, our personnel received the best possible training in addressing subjects such as terrorists whether it be a domestic terrorist or international terrorists, we need to get our persons training. it showed us we had to put in place a system to ensure records with what we expect. as you pointed out, there was a report to and following a steady of examiners at the laboratory. one of those was a fiber examiners.

the other examiners may have conducted those examinations prior to 1996 and were not part of that review. in 1996, which started using mitochondrial dna along with hair and fiber analysis and that changed the ball game. thee talking now with department of justice in terms of how we go back on cases to determine whether or not examiners in cases prior to 1996 may have overstated the impact of their analysis. we are working with the department of justice to see what kind of review should be undertaken. >> there were some people that are still incarcerated on the

basis of some of those reports. >> we have seen the government has a couple of cases where it looks like the dna, the analysis done, the hair and fiber was wrong. we want to make sure we follow up on that. >> thank you. the gentleman from north carolina is recognized. >> first of all, i want to associate myself with the words of complement's you and the ranking member spoke on behalf of director mueller. you have been an outstanding director of the fbi. it is good to have you on the hill today. at your recent testimony on the fiscal year 2013 budget request, you made reference to several

threats that received heightened focus ranging from health care fraud to organized crime and gang violence. part of that focus requires putting more special agents onto these cases. help me reconcile the need for more agents to address these important threats with a federal employee pay and hiring freezes. have you, mr. mueller, considered asking congress to exempt law enforcement officers from these actions, much like the president did what the military? >> there aren't too areas which i should focus on. the first is on the 2013 budget that has gone through congress at this point. with that budget, we do not face

those kinds of losses that you are contemplating. if sequestration occurs, it is a different ball game. we would be putting ourselves in the same status as the military. i believe that when it comes to the work we do in the national security arena, whether it be counterintelligence or the cyber arena, the work we do in contributing to the national security, not to mention the other crimes that you alluded to, health care fraud, the nation cannot afford for us to lose a substantial number of agents. we have had to prioritize and make certain that all of us focus on the most important

priorities. that has meant we do not do some things are we did to september 11 but it is essential to make certain we do prioritize to stop terrorist attacks, stop the spies, stop intruders. lock up a child predators' and delight. as a sick, my hope would be that we will do as well if not better than the military but when it comes to the budget review. >> the bipartisan senate report on the fort hood massacre, the worst on u.s. soil, since 9/11, found that political correctness inhibited his superiors from taking actions that may have stopped or at least delayed the attack. can you see why, given that report, why some of us may be concerned that materials may be another instance of a

governmental agency compromising national security under the pressure of political correctness. what can you say to assure us that you appreciate how pressures for political correctness can harm and may have harmed to our national security efforts. >> i can say that political correctness played no role in the efforts we undertook to make certain we give the best training to our personnel. it does us no good to have personnel who are trained with inadequate materials or misguided materials. we have made those 876 pages available with an explanation as to why we thought they should not be used in further training but i should say we went through 160,000 pages and out of those we only found less

than 1% that were questionable. political correctness had nothing to do with it. it was done because we want the best possible training for our personnel. >> i did not mean to imply that it did but it exposed, that was my point. i see the red light is about to eliminate. -- illuminate. i yield back my time. >> the chairman from new york is recognized. >> i would like to follow up on the gentleman from north carolina. the house is considering today a bill for the next fiscal year. this includes the fbi. some believe we should not be abiding by the figures agreed to in the budget control act last year and that spending should be lower. what would happen if there was a drastic cut to funding,

including the fbi of 5%? how would you handle that? >> we would have to prioritize. in my lengthier statement that i provided to the committee, you can see the various threats that we are facing. we would have to cut down, we would have to find some area where we would have to reduce personnel. it is very hard to pick when you are reducing personnel to address the cyber threat, reducing personnel in addressing the threat of a child pornography. every priority is a substantial priority to the american public and the security of the united states. we would have to prioritize. we would have to cut it again. >> if the sequestration mandated by the budget control act were allowed to go into

affect january 1, how many agents would have to be let go? >> several hundreds, if not over 1000. >> how many do have now? >> 14,000. >> you're talking eight%. >> maybe a little less. it would be a substantial cut. >> let me switch subjects a moment. under the february presidential policy directive which implements section 1022 of last year's authorization act, the fbi is going to lead authorities where they were taken into custody by law enforcement. can you tell us how this policy was developed? >> i am sorry. i did not hear the last part. >> how it was delicate and

directed, will it help or hurt to the fbi? >> i had some initial concerns about it into areas. the first area was with regard to our continued authorities and the final passage resolved that concern. the second concern is what would happen at the time of an arrest where events are fast- moving, would there be confusion with regard to who does what when. in my mind, this resolve those issues and makes it clear that if we had a terrorism case that fell within the parameters, we would continue to work that case in conjunction with the department of defense. i was satisfied with the bill as well as the directive as

assuring us that we would be able to do our job effectively given the statute. >> would you recommend any changes when it comes up again this year? >> i would have to look at it and see what was proposed. you asked about the development of the procedures, that was done in a number of working groups. that is how it was developed. >> my last question, last month we've passed -- the house passed legislation regarding cyber legislation. from your perspective, do these bills go far enough, too far, in assisting you in what you need to deal with and the powers you need to deal with the cyber

security threat? >> there are a variety of issues regarding the hair you address it. the bills address one aspect of it, how you protect the infrastructure and who is going to be involved. the areas we will have concern. the first area is the mandatory reporting of substantial incidents. we believe it should be part of statute at some point in time. the second is the sharing of intelligence. we saw that we did in the days leading up to september 11, we saw how we were disadvantaged by the inability to sharing intelligence. it is essential in the cyber arena that intelligence be shared.

some one difference is viewed in importance of sharing information from the private sector because often -- to the extent they address the sharing of intelligence with us, we are supportive. those are issues we are concerned about in any cyber legislation, whether that which was passed or otherwise. >> i see my time has expired. >> the gentleman from virginia is recognized. >> director mueller, welcome. do you agree that no united states citizen arrested in the united states should be indefinitely detained without all of the rights of due process? what is your interpretation of section 1021?

>> can you repeat the question? >> whether or not you agree that no united states citizen apprehended in the united states should be indefinitely detained without all the rights of due process provided by our constitution? >> i believe there should be the case. >> are you concerned over the language in the authorization acts called section 1021 which does not clarify the status of u.s. citizens? >> i have not focused on that aspect so much as the other aspects of the act. i believe it affirms the president's authority to make the decisions the president believes are necessary to thwart a terrorist attack. >> that might include seizing a u.s. citizen in their home and

detaining them without charges. >> i am not certain that is the case. i have not followed the debate. >> we look forward to the opportunity to make sure it is clear that the citizens have that protection. we are in the process of working through that. let me ask you another question. the fbi arrested five men in cleveland, ohio involved in a plot to bomb a bridge. some of these men were members of the occupied cleveland movement. has the a p i seen an increase -- fbi seen an increase in this left-wing extremist terrorist activity? is the movement a breeding ground for this type of extremism? if those within the move ament perceive their demands are not being met, what is the likelihood or they will resort to more of this type of violence? >> as for the last aspect, i cannot speculate. because individuals were

arrested last week, i am limited to and i would directed to the complaint that was filed and the facts that are laid out. the complaint focused on their conduct, not necessarily the conduct of others. >> have you seen an increase in this type of left-wing extremist terrorist activity? >> well, i would say, i would not go with the predicate left weighing. -- left wing. i would say persons who have violated the laws in this way. we have not seen an increase. it is episodic. >> how about if it is ideologically driven? >> these individuals are violated a law. that is why they were arrested. >> in recent years, we have seen reports of a confidential

and secret information leaking out of the post on the internet. the wikileaks cases are the most prominent but an fbi report also drew attention to the growing problem of foreign students and professors engaging in espionage and intellectual property theft. when millions of documents can be walked out of a building or a lamp on a thumb drive in a back pocket, the risks of espionage increase. does the fbi have the tools to protect confidential information and the records that contains private information about simpson's and corporate secrets and government information and? do you have the tools you need to protect against that? >> i will speak to the protection of information within the database of the fbi. yes, i will say, yes, we have. we are concerned about insiders but also actors from the outside. i believe we have state of the

art capabilities to protect our database. that does not mean it cannot be done. it is a continuous wherry for anybody over any department. we have taken, and i believe it is the best you have, to ensure the protection of our data. when it goes, and as you point out, often data is contained in universities or colleges or elsewhere. to the extent that we, as an entity, are working with those institutions, we seek to assure those institutions have opted a security to protect whatever they may have. >> my time has expired. i also call to your attention legislation signed into law by governor mcdonnell of my state, house bill 1160 which addressed to this concern about unlawful seizures of citizens.

no state agency in virginia can cooperate with any federal agency for the enforcement of that provision. if you could look at that for their response to the committee with your thoughts about how we can correct this problem and protect our citizens, we would welcome it. >> the gentleman from virginia, mr. scott is recognized. >> there is not a lot we agree on around here but your reconfirmation was one of them. i appreciate your service. a few years ago, according to published accounts, the united states participated in waterboarding, a practice for which there has been international consensus that it constitutes tortured. what was the fbi participation in the practice? >> none.

>> why was the fbi not participating? >> our guidelines, the guidelines we adopted some years ago preclude our participation. >> didn't issue an order for them not to participate in what is perceived to be tortured? >> the guidance was to make certain that we follow our guidelines when it comes to interrogation. >> your conscience prevented the fbi from participating in torture. is that right? >> our guidelines precluded it and it was you follow our guidelines. >> that is why you have universal support. that practice had the fbi cannot participate. it was a breath of fresh air. one of the problems that we

noticed after 9/11 was at the personnel in the fbi and cia may not have reflected the ethnic representation we needed to fight terrorism. could you make a comment on where you are now or submit an ethnic breakdown of the staff of the fbi? >> i can give you a larger figure, 43% of our work force are women. 25% are representatives of various minority groups. for a greater break down, i would have to get you additional figures. we still have work to do. we continuously strive to reflect the communities in which we serve and operate. >> my colleague talked about

numbers of agents. can you translate that into how it would affect your ability to get the job done? >> we would have to prioritize and it would be a question of which of the priorities are listed in my opening comments or my more lengthy submission to the committee. we will have to cut back. cutting back in an age where crime is global in ways it was not an years ago. by that i mean whether it be organized crime or an cyber crime, white-collar crime, gangs, they are globalized and that entity that has the best chance for addressing globalized criminal activity is the fbi. if you cut us from doing it at a point in time where much of the crime is globalize, it is a

double hit, in some sense. >> you mentioned organized crime, one strategy is what is called organized retail theft where a group grows and cleans shelves of desirable items and sell them on ebay or other internet sites. doingu say what you're about that and whether or not more agents would be helpful? >> we would work with state entities in a particularly egregious situation. organized retail thefts are not a priority. even with additional agents i can think of other higher priorities. i will tell you that the guidance is there is an

egregious series of crimes, persons are hurt, injured, amounts are substantial then we would make an exception to our usual prioritization to try to help out state and local -- >> the same problem with consumer i.d. theft where you can solve those crimes but it's labor intensive. i think we had more agents on it -- not cutting agents but increasing agents, we could be more effective in dealing with organized retail theft and identity theft. >> if i may say, what we have tried to do over the last several years with the scarce resources is develop task forces where we will have an agent or two agents, but the task force will be augmented by state and local law enforcement. so you have access not just to state laws but also federal laws and much more effective in utilizing our personnel. this is an area in which certain cities around the country where it's rampant crime in these

areas where a task force would be our approach. >> thank you, mr. scott. the gentleman from texas, mr. gohmert, is recognized for questions. >> director, welcome back. weren'tk's vote we expecting to see each other in this setting again and as the chairman pointed out you got additional two years. there was no objection to your having two years because they presented it at a time when nobody knew they were going to be bringing you back, your extension in two years, so there was nobody else on the floor. it went rather smoothly since nobody knew they were bringing it up. there are some officers still concerned about the thousands and thousands of years of experience we lost due to your

former five-year up or out policy. i want to get to the concerns about the purging of material, of training material. we have a document here that points out in the 9/11 commission report there were 322 references to islam, and the current f.b.i. lexicon there is zero references to islam or to jihad. we talked before when you were here about the outreach programs that the f.b.i. had to the muslim community. we have done some looking and apparently in june of 2002 you had given a speech, the american muslim council, your spokesman said was, quote, the most mainstream muslim group in the united states, that's the american muslim council, and the head of a.m.c. was a guy named al moody. that same year the a.m.c. board advisor, former acting

president, jameel, was arrested for murdering a georgia police officer. he was arrested himself. in 2003 an olympian assassination plot targeting the saudi crown prince. later identified by the u.s. treasury as one of al qaeda's top fundraisers in the u.s. then there is -- in 2003, october, 2003, just days before a ceremony honoring the leader ahman, bestowing on him your own director's award for exceptional public service. the f.b.i. contacted ahmad to tell him he wasn't going to receive the award. later when your spokesman said there was unflattering information about ahmad that had been made public during the deportation proceedings of one of his close associates, and the i.n.s. had fought for two decades to

deport this guy that was about to get the award. he was suspected in supporting the popular front of the liberation of palestine and that's a designate terrorist organization. the reason i'm bringing these things up is because we've got people -- we know there are three subject matter experts that your office has reduced to identify who have gone through and purged these materials. we were not even told whether they were u.s. citizens. whether one of these people that would have gotten the award that didn't get the award that had all these other suspected problems. we know that the palestinian islamic jihad leader had meetings and conversations with high-ranking officials at d.o.j. and the department of homeland security, and that was despite him being the subject of a fisa wiretap warrant since the early 1990's, and his home was raided in 1995.

we know that in 2008 you had handed one of your director's community leadership award to iman behindy who testified during the trial as a defense witness and hindi that served as a moderator, which was shut down in 2002 because they were a designated terrorist organization supporting al qaeda, of all groups. it just goes on and on and i'm very concerned that since there are people potentially terrorist organizations, terrorist ties as we have seen that the f.b.i. as made these type of mistakes before in trying to judge character, we would like to know who these subject matter experts are that are going through the f.b.i.

material and purging that of reference to jihad and islam and these type of things. would you identify those people for us? >> well, quite a bit in that question. >> some of it's background that i hope you are aware of. >> i cannot address all of you -- what you said there. i will say at the outset we make every effort in our outreach, outreach in that statement to the muslim community are americans, and the vast, vast majority of muslim american community has been exceptionally supportive. >> you're not answering my question, director. >> if i may -- >> it's very pointed. are you going to identify the subject matter experts? that's the question. but are you going to answer that question? >> let the director respond to the question. >> i will when he answers the question. >> as i was saying outreach is very important to us. we make certain it's with the

appropriate person. with regard to the individuals who abused the material there were five individuals not three. we are happy to give you the background and consider giving you the names if you find it important. we hope there would be some confidentiality in doing that, but we have nothing to hide. >> you will identify those -- >> we will discuss circumstances under which we'll identify those individuals, yes. >> could we also get the documents you produced to the terrorists that were convicted in the holy land foundation trial? >> a number of congresspersons have come -- >> i wasn't aware of that. i'll be there to look. thank you. >> the gentleman's time has expired. the gentleman from north carolina, mr. watt. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, director mueller, for being here. you may have noticed that i was here for your testimony and then left because we have a hearing going on in financial services

on which i also serve. i want to spend some time talking about what's going on in the mortgage fraud area. during the time that we were working in financial services on what turned out to be the dodd-frank legislation, i had a lot of constituents who were saying to me, when are some of these people going to be put in jail? and my response always was, look, my primary focus at this point is to try to make sure that we don't have the same kind of things that led to this financial and economic meltdown occur again. so my authority is really not trying to deal with people who got us here but trying to

figure out how not to be there a second, third, and fourth time. but since we have done dodd- frank and i continue to get a number of inquiries from people who are saying, when is somebody going to go to jail for all of these things? now, you indicated there were -- you had nearly 2,600 mortgage fraud investigations. asking the question i'm and my constituents are asking me has to do with what have those investigations led to? and there seems to still to be a lack of prosecutions and accountability resulting from those investigations.

now, i understand that you are not on the prosecution side, you are on the investigating side, and building of the case side, but can you give us any information about what those 2,600 investigations have led to in terms of prosecutions, convictions, or how many of them are still in the prosecution process, what we might expect going forward on that front? >> let me -- i actually thought hi the figures but i don't have the figures here today. i'll have to get you figures in terms of prosecutions. there are have been literally thousands of prosecutions. many multimillion dollar scams that have been successfully prosecuted with individuals going to jail for tens of years. i recently in florida and going to talk to a group down there and pointed out that several prosecutions where there were

groups of individuals, particularly the housing complexes, and rolled over houses fraudulently for a number of years and if i'm not mistaken one of the principals was going to jail for 30 years. i'll have to get you the facts. >> that would be very helpful to somebody who serves on financial services committee in particular. we get a lot of inquiries. i guess we see periodically in local communities that somebody's been prosecuted, going to jail, but if we could get an overall picture of what has happened. a number of prosecutions, on a nationwide basis, it would allow us to respond more effectively to people who are saying, i haven't seen any -- anybody prosecuted or going to jail as a result of this. the second part of that is the higher ups in the hierarchy,

the more visible national prosecutions, how many of those have there been? and what -- how successful have they been to get to some of the people at the higher corporate levels who may have been involved in bringing down substantial financial institutions ultimately and resulted in massive housing loss, foreclosure loss of various kinds? >> let me -- there have been a number of prosecutions, particularly in new york, that have dominated the newspapers over the last year, particularly when it comes to insider trading, and the first use of title three wire intercepts and that type of white collar crime. we also had a number of securities fraud, prosecutions,

and corporate institutional fraud. in fact, our investigations i believe in the securities arena are up some 55%, 50%, 55% over 2008 and also up until 40% in the corporate fraud arena. again, will i have to give awe breakdown of the cases and the -- give you some sense of what we are -- >> my time has expired, but i think it would be very helpful if we could get a broader picture of this statistical picture, not only your part of it, the investigateor part, but the prosecution and conviction side of it for those of us who are facing constituents who still are going through substantial foreclosures and have lost their homes, they want to see some results. i think they are results so i appreciate you agreeing to follow up after the hearing on

that. >> thank you, mr. watt. the gentleman from utah investigated. >> thank you for your service and being here. i'm going to try to touch on three subjects so i need to move fairly swiftly. on the anniversary of the killing of osama bin laden, was there a specific and/or credible threat of terrorism upon the united states of america? >> we did not believe so. you are referring no doubt -- >> there was an arrest. >> i think it's fair to say that plot had been thwarted at the time. >> let me move quickly to fast and furious. have you ever spoken with attorney general holder or secretary napolitano about the fast and furious case? >> i have to think -- certainly not secretary napolitano. unless you are talking about the killing of brian terry. if that's part of the question,

then, yes, because we are conducting that investigation both the concern about how that investigation is going and to get periodic updates. with regard to the wider fast and furious examination, i don't believe i have. >> the attorney -- >> i have talked to the department of justice. i do not recall having particular discussion with the attorney general. >> the attorney general's office has called fast and furious itself, even though they ran it, operated it, quote and quote fundamentally flawed. there are literally close to 2,000 weapons that have been released. other than the two guns that were found at the scene, have you or the agency come across any guns that were purposely released by our government under fast and furious? >> have you come across any of these guns or anything here in the united states? >> i have to check on that.

>> if you could get back to me on that i would appreciate it. if you could clarify whether there were two guns or three guns found at the scene. even the letter we got most recently back to chairman issa i think was not as crystal clear as we would like it to be. just follow up. >> i can respond to it. two guns. >> ok. >> there were two guns. there were some misinterpretation of information on the evidence sheet that seemed to indicate the potential or possibility of a third gun. only two guns were recovered. >> thank you. i want to move now to the more recent jones case that came before the supreme court, had to do with g.p.s. devices put on cars so it could be tracked. there's some concern i would guess law enforcement that this ruling, 9-0, by the supreme court would change the way how law enforcement is able to track. i just want to get your

thoughts and perspective on that quickly. get a sense of how many g.p.s. devices were on the cars and how this would affect what you are doing at the f.b.i. >> director mueller, would you pull your mike closer? >> first of all, i would say several hundred. over 200 investigations were impacted by the jones decision. somewhere over 200. what impact it has is the need for additional surveillances. when you use the g.p.s. devices you do not have to have teams of surveillance. as you know where the individual may be at any particular point in time. and certain investigations that's going to mean we are going to use very precious, valuable surveillance resources where before we had the electronic capability to monitor individuals. i am aware of efforts, i believe your bill, to address the issue and i would say this.

my looking at additional with you indicates that the definition of that kind of information that would be protected would require a warrant would expand the things such as telephone pole records which we have traditional gotten with subpoenas and the like, because a pole record may have a geographical indicator in it and the area code. as one thinks of legislation in this arena, probably keep in mind the impact it would have in our ability to do much of the work we do, particularly since the information we get from g.p.s. devices and the like contributes to the probable cause that is necessary to conduct the investigation to -- the further investigation using enhanced investigative techniques. >> the intent of the legislation is not to preclude those -- when you have probable cause, what it's concerned about is the ever expanding use of g.p.s.