certainly -- they don't want to miss another huge ponzi scheme. >> how would you answer that? >> i think they are. it's easy to look in the media and say they found another advisor that stole $7 million from the elderly in florida. so what? that's real money to real people. to their credit, they bring the cases, as well as the $550 cases against goldman sachs. they have ramped up what they are doing. there's always going to be something missed. our job is to point that out. >> thanks for coming for your first appearance on

"newsmakers." >> thanks for having us. >> now the final debate on tuesday's wisconsin governor recall between scott walker and tom barrett. they debate the economy, campaign ads, fund raising, as well as investigation into the staff. the debate is about an hour. >> the following is a commitment 2012 special presentation of wifn news. >> good evening. we are just five days away from wisconsin's historic gubernatorial recall election. >> we are proud to present the final debate by scott walker and tom barrett. >> the hour-long conversation will be monorated by our colleague, 12 news upfront host

mike. because of the importance, the broadcast is live, unedited, and commercial free. >> we are conscious, of course, of the historic nature of the recall election. it's only the third time in the nation's history when citizens of a state have tried to recall a governor. >> the events that brought us to the election will be reviewed. >> and the decision on how it ends belongs to you on election day june 5th. >> we go now to the home of marquette law school for an extraordinary hour of debate and discussion about the issues that brought us here and those that will define our states future. here's our colleague, mike. >> hello, everyone. welcome to our conversation with the candidates. tonight we are joined by the republican incumbent, scott walker and his challenger tom barrett. thanks to both of you. we are here at marquette

university law school where i work as a journalist. i'm the host of a statewide public affairs program, upfront with mike gousha. we've asked the candidates to join us about where we have been and where we are headed in wisconsin. we've asked candidates to be stay on point. the candidates can talk to one another, but i'll be managing the time we spend on a particular topic and will have the freedom to move the conversation along. each candidate will have a closing statement, but no opening statement. we'll begin tonight with governor walker. thanks for being with us. i'll begin with a question that i think needs to be asked. it is about what this contest really means. i don't want to over state the importance of a single election in wisconsin. but what's at stake next tuesday? >> well, i think it's ultimately about whether or not we want politicians to act on tough decisions.

i've heard for years t heard fot politicians don't take on the issues. it's interesting. for all of the talk about what the recall was, we don't hear about it. it's because the forms are working. we've saved and documented more than a billion dollars worth of savings. we've seen property taxes go down for the first time, we've seen a budget surplus, and despite what my opponent has talked about, we saw yesterday the federal government, the u.s. bureau of labor statistics confirm and actually slightly adjust it upwards the numbers that we documented in terms of jobs that were created in 2011, we are creating jobs in 2012, we have created 30,000 new jobs. those are things i'd like to talk about. i think that's what the election is about. >> mayor barrett, what do you think is the future? >> i think he's traveling around

the country and raising millions and millions of dollars. they have an agenda that's not wisconsin. it's not about the people in milwaukee or green bay or appleton, it's about the tea party movement and what he can do to make this the tea party capital of this country. those aren't wisconsin values. i want us to get back to wisconsin values. i disagree. i don't think the reforms are working. you ask that 75-year-old women on a fixed income who relies on the homes to tax credit. that was cut. those reforms aren't working for per. they aren't working for the middle class. there are families struggling to get their kids to college. look at our school. we have the largest average class size since 1995. they aren't working. they are working for the wealthiest people, but not the middle class. >> you are leading in as if you want to say something.

we can continue on with the discussion if that's all right. >> sure. we'll have plenty of time to talk about the details. >> we'll work through the areas that both of you have laid out tonight. i want to go back to the beginning of this. one the things, mayor, you say you refer to him as the divide-and-conquer candidate. i want to go back to the conversation, video tape, you are speaking in the early part of last year with a prominent donor. you use the expression when asked what could be done about unions in wisconsin, you say divide-and-conquer. >> a year and a half ago, i was talking about somebody needs to stand up and take on the powerful special interest. i've seen it all across the state. before our reforms a handful dictated the state and local level. we drew a line in the sand and said we're going to put the power back.

that's the difference. the mayor has said repeatedly, he wants to go back and restore. that undoing a billion dollars, that means higher property taxes on working families and seniors and others out there. that's documented out there. first time in a dozen years of property taxes have gone down. >> what were you trying to conquer? >> the special interest. >> you are trying to divide and conquer. >> in our case, it's about standing up and finally having somebody that's willing to stand up with the hard working taxpayers of the state. for years. think about it. school is a good example. prior school districts across the state overwhelmingly had to buy their health insurance from just one company. the company drive up the cost. we changed that and now we are saving tens of millions of dollars. the mayor wants to go back. >> do you regret saying that? >> it's a year and a half. i don't even remember the context. it was in the 5.0 meeting in

terms of about helps janesville. i don't have any regrets for standing up for the hard working taxpayers of the state. that's why all of the money has come into the state since february or march attacking us because we drew a line in the sand and stood on the side of the taxpayer. >> you can respond. i want to frame it into a question. you don't talk that much about collective bargaining, you talk about the john doe probe, you talk about jobs, but not collective bargaining because he argues it worked. >> i'm happy to talk about it tonight. i want to address your initial question to him. there was no question. let's be honest here. the question was how can we make this a right to work statement. how can we taking away the working rights of people in public and private unions? your response was the first step. the first step is we'll go after the public unions. we'll use divide and conquer. we'll use the budget adjustment bill to do it. three things came out ofthat.

one, it was clear you weren't going to stop at the public unions, and you were going to continue to pit people against each other. the second that you did intend to divide and conquer. you wanted to pit people against each other. because that's the way you operate. the third thing is you wanted to use a crisis to do that. i think of our country, and i think of great leaders like franklin roosevelt, and the depression era, and he tried to bring the country together. you wanted to use the crisis to divide and conquer our state. it wasn't the first time you'd made a statement. you said you were going to drop the bomb. you use in statement to billionaire, another person who you thought was a billionaire, you say we're going to drop the bomb. when we talk to the public, everybody is nice. >> let me -- >> that is repeatedly for the last year and a half. i want to take on the powerful special interest. you selectively take pieces of

the conversation out. there's no way to balance the budget without raising taxes, without massive layoffs, without cuts and things like medicare -- i put more money into the medicaid than any governor in wisconsin history. you cannot do that unless you make long term reforms and use it to save millions of dollars. you could not have done it before if it hadn't been for our reforms. i don't mind having the exchange. because that's the fundamental difference that voters have to look at. i believe the power should be in the hands of the hard working taxpayers. mayor wants to go back to a system where they deck -- dictated things for the people. >> i don't do the middle class as a special interest. that's what the issue is here. go back to the conversation that you had with the woman, she owns a corporation. he's a billionaire.

in 2010, she pays no corporate income taxes. her company says no taxes. she makes a $510,000 contribution. larger ever. ever in the state history. the reforms are working for her because she doesn't pay any corporate income tax. the last time we sat at the table, you said you wanted to lower the income tax rate. i'm saying it's not working for the middle class. >> that's a good example. you bring it up as if we had something to do with that. that was 2010. i wasn't the governor of the state of wisconsin. i want to lower taxes. that's what we did. middle class has paid for the expansion of government. i reduced the tax burden of the state. it's why unemployment has gone down to 6.7%, the lowest it's been since 2008. it's why in contrast the city of milwaukee or mayor, property taxes have gone up. taxes and fees have gone up 43%. that's why the employment has

gone of. there's a fundamental difference. we talk about the middle class, the middle class pays for the expansion of government in the state. that's not moving forward. when you put more of a burden on the hard working taxpayer. we are standing up. >> take a couple of seconds to respond. then i want to ask a question. >> i want to respond about milwaukee. this is important. scott wants the people in the state to forget he represented milwaukee. for eight years plus, you were the county executive. under your leadership, on your watch, we saw 34% in unemployment, we saw you increase property taxes $40 million, and we saw borrowing go up 85%. now at the state you are doing the same thing. you are using the same game plan where you push that out and put it on the credit card and kick it down the road. >> let me wrap this up with two questions. which collective bargaining positions would you restore, and

would you expand this and cover police officers and firefighters if you were governor? >> i would restore the right to collectively bargain and organize. i think those are fundamental rights. the discussion -- there is where there's a disagreement here. the discussion over payment towards health care and pension, those employees agree to that. they grow to that. but scott does not accept that agreement. the reason he wouldn't accept the agreement, because it wasn't really about that. it was about going after your political enemies and permanently ending their ability to be involved in the process. he talks about taking on the special interest, my view -- and let's face it, i wasn't the candidate for the public union. the difference is i'll allow them to be at the table. i'm not going to let them set

the menu. >> go ahead. it's one of the differences. that's the trade off. they've been involved in attacking me since last february and march when it all started. that's where the difference resides. i believe fund the tally the only way the city of milwaukee got. they didn't happen when the reforms went in place. you were able to get the savings because of our reforms. this is something that's just fundamentally about fairness. when you have hard working taxpayers across the state paying 20, 25% or more for the health insurance and you've got many cases fortunate to be able to match their retirement amount, they don't view this as out of whack when you say you got to get the power back at local level for the opportunity for them to do that. >> there's a quick question. the response can be brief. he raised the issue of whether

or not the right to work legislation is coming next for the state of wisconsin. you and i talk about that. you have no intention of pushing that, you don't think there's support for it. when people have asked you point blank would you veto or like to work the legislation, what's your respond? would you veto it? >> i said it's not going to get there. >> would you veto it? >> i said it's not going to get there. you are asking a hypothetical situation. i don't want to repeat the same discussion and debate. i think most people in the state, democrat, republican, and the like want to move on and move forward. the difference between myself and the mayor, the mayor has said the only thing he's going to call a special session, not on jobs and the economy, it's on collective bargaining, restoring that to the unions. that's going to replay the same debate all over. for people that want us to move on. >> i would love to answer the question on why he won't answer

the question on vetoing the bill. he's become the rock star. he's traveled around the country making speeches. one the ten commandments of the far right is you have to be against unions. you have to be in favor of right to work where unions don't exist. he would have a fall from grace with the far right if he said he was going to veto that. so he can't say it. because then he would no longer be the poster boy of the tea party. that's why he cannot answer the question. >> logic doesn't work. the private sector unions have been my partner over the last year and a half in the economic development. i made investments that put people to work, union workers back to work, i've done in environment, and i've tried to do it when it comes to mining. all of those things is where private sector unions is. >> i'm telling you right now, if that bill hits his desk, he's signing it. >> it won't.

your mentor said it would never hit his desk in indiana. the thursday before super bowl, they made state history. mark my words, he will sign it. >> mayor, you said after the primary victory this would be a referendum on the jobs record. a fair amount has changed over the last couple of weeks in terms of other numbers being presented. >> amazing, isn't it? >> do you think this conversation has changed? is it still a referendum, or different issue now? >> i think trust comes play. trust permeating the entire conversation. trust is certainly an issue. it's going to continue to be an issue. >> jobs for you? >> absolutely. let me talk about this.

there are no tom barrett numbers. i don't create numbers. last year governor walker loved the number. under scott walker, wisconsin has lost more jobs than any other state in the country. he has a political problem. he contacts the political pointees and says we have to come up with a different set of numbers. let's use this set of numbers. >> you are saying people intentionally mislead us about the state of the economy? >> i'm saying he came up with a new set of numbers that's based on numbers that are used that are not commonly used. the bureau of labor, these are the good housekeeping numbers, all of the states use it. he realizes he has a political problem. they come out. this is where you have the wisconsin common sense test. 20 days before an election they bring up the new numbers and amazingly four hours later

there's commercials supporting his numbers. >> you stand by the numbers that claim that wisconsin lost jobs in 2011? >> i'll go a step further. because he's said -- now he's got the verified they are not verified. let's even use his new numbers. his new numbers would have wisconsin dead last in the midwest. so he wants to brag about the numbers that have us dead last in the midwest. >> you presented numbers. it's not a common practice to present numbers early. respond to what he says. in our state you have monthly numbers and quarterly estimates at the end of the year. you had a monthly sample done. that's the number the mayor

bases his entire add, that's all of the alleys. in comparison, the numbers and the state department here in wisconsin are required to have submitted by may 16th are the numbers surveying almost 160,000 employers. every economist, including the one that gave you money is the best measure of jobs in the state. yesterday the u.s. bureau of labor statistics, the very agency that the mayor talked about last friday night said what we haven't heard from dos, they define us. yesterday they sent an e-mail to the state department of work force development saying they've reviewed and verified the numbers, and instead of being $23,321, it was $23,608. it actually went up. that's exactly -- the e-mail sent back saying we've verified. >> what did they say today? >> they sent the numbers? >> don't look at the paper.

>> i want to know what the bureau said. they did not say those are the final numbers. >> let's check them. >> the state verified they reviewed and verified the numbers. i realize this undermines the hole focal point. but the facts are the facts. wisconsin gained jobs in 2012 and 2011. there's been more than 30,000 new jobs and the unemployment rate is 6.7%, compared to 10% in the city of milwaukee. over 10%. 28% increase in unemployment, which drove everything in this region, because of your policies raising taxes 43%, taxes and fees because of the policies. they said in the editorial when they endorse me, they pointed out that you have a fundamentally risk avers and do not have a plan for development. it's moving forward. that's the choice that people have to make. >> and the fact is using your

numbers, we are dead last in the midwest. if that is what you are proud of. if you want to be mediocre and dead last. let's accept the numbers. they are dead last. >> i'm glad to see the mayor is accepting those are the numbers. that's what they are. you build off of that. >> are you disappointing where you are? in all honesty? >> when jim was governor the three years before i took office, we lost more than 100,000. we've gained more than 30,000 jobs, the unemployment rate is down, the lowest it's been since 2008 in contrast to where we've seen things in the last eight years. if people look at that and say they are disappointed, the last thing is one the poorest cities in the country. >> it has nothing to do with the city. >> in fact, the difference between the two of us is my answer has been since april of last year to put together a plan called transform milwaukee to invest $100 million in the most

impoverished state, and your plan to spend $200 million on a trolley. one plans moves us backwards, the other moves us forward. >> mayor, give us an idea of what you would do differently if you were governor in terms of economic development? can you name something that's not being done today that you'd do? >> what you have to do is you have to tie job creation and the tax credits together. the tax code has to be tied together. when governor walker came in, the first thing he did was pass legislation. $2.3 million. it benefited corporation and people who were wealthy. it benefited corporations and primary wealthy people. then he said we've got a budget crisis. we're going to have to cut education $1.6 billion. the largest cut that the state has ever seen in education. the city got the largest cut it ever received from the state government. i would not have had those

priorities. i would not have started out by having an untested tax system. going back to what we talked about, he put through the tax package. if you want to use his number, the worst economic performance in the midwest. >> you are saying they are not tieing? >> people come to me as mayor all the time. they want developers. i have two questions off of the bat. how much jobs are you creating? are they family jobs? those are the questions. if you are creating jobs and family-supporting jobs, then we're going to look at ways to work with you. he never asked that question. again this is why you have a situation where corporations that don't pay any taxes love the guy. they love him. what about the struggling small business people? they don't see this.

>> you know, the biggest beneficiaries of that are? small business and family owners. we are one the few people that still had a state tax that was about helping small business owners. we built and i traveled the state businessing small and mid sized employers. our budget, one the biggest tax incentives that we put in place was the manufacturing tax credit. at least during the primary, mr. mayor, you were talking about repealing that and pulling that back. >> that's impossible. the tax in a couple of years would mean that certain wealthy individuals would pay no state income. >> it's not about individuals. it is specifically tied in the manufacturing agriculture base businesses. the two biggest industries in the state of wisconsin. i was just at a company yesterday and one before that in appleton. i've been in that all over the state. if you are a manufacturing, particularly a small business in

a state, one the biggest expenses that you have is investments in capital that put people to work. if we are going to bring jobs back from places like china, india, mexico, you got to have the tools. i know that because for the past year and a half, three, four, five times a week i've been out on the road talking to manufacturers and small business owners talking to farmers about what they need to put more people. that's why today's journal had a agreed headline. it talked about the hiring outlook is bullish. they like the changes we made two years ago in iran, in the states together, only 10% of our employers in the state thought we were headed in the right direction. today 94% believe we are deaded in the right direction. the number one concern, june 5 they want to make sure we continue to view forward because they knew the policy the mayor has enacted as negative.

>> mayor, do you want to respond? >> people that make a lot of money do well with scott walker. we have to be concerned about people that are middle class and people that want to be middle class. because the strength of the country has always been a middle class where people can support their families, where the kids can go to college, and the actions he has taken has made it more expensive for kids to go to college, that's a fact. you have class sizes that are larger. and if we are not going to be investing in the future of the state, then i disagree. we have to have the largest state. >> we are disagreeing. cuts and education here in the state of wisconsin. there is an argument that you can see that goes something like this. for states to be property -- prosperous, they need highly skilled workers.

people that go to technical colleges, people that have more college degrees, that's necessary. does it make sense, is it short sided to be cutting into education when you know you have those needs? >> it would if you didn't put in place reforms for school districts to make up for it. >> matt and alex, my two kids go to public schools. their school district benefited. you have school district after school district that not only balanced the budget, but in a way that allowed them to hire more teachers. many schools set money aside for merit pay. we not only balanced the budget, but made decisions about hiring and fires based on merit and performance. we can put the best and brightest and the keep them there. >> we are going to hold the cuts. >> you have to have the office. for eight years, i was a legal

official. >> unlike states across the country, the reason that you were able to fair better, the reason why we act over the last ten years has done a survey as to how things fair. this has been the best reaction. the mayor wants to go to a system under collective bargaining where they didn't have the freedom and couldn't make the changes and where they were handcuffed. that's a system in even a few years ago where he put the milwaukee public school system, some of the best teachers were the first ones laid off because they were not given the forms in the future, milwaukee, janesville, a handful of districts that have yet to take advantage of the reform will see the benefits. >> the reality is 70% of the school districts have cut teachers. larger class size.

we have the largest class size since 1995. .. >> this is a budget question. it is the decision you have to make.

if you had a $3.6 billion deficit, you have to make hard decisions. there is k. 312 education. -- k-12 education. where are we going to look for the money? >> this is the difference. what he did is he picked them off. there was no notion of shared. it was these people were against me, i am going after them. i will go back to the great leaders in a time of crisis. that is how you bring people together. you say, and we have to have shared sacrifice. i am going to ask the local government to do something. i am not going to turn around and give cuts to corporations that are not tied to creating jobs. >> they think it would have been

less painful if he said, i am not going to do the tax incentive. apparently, there was an of money. >> one of those elected, i went across the state for a year and a half. i heard, you need to fix the economic and the fiscal crisis. everything we did we tied in to create more jobs. unlike the state in the past, people who make cuts to public education. we give those schools reform. there are a couple key differences, the difference in schools that had not fare well. long term, you use our reforms. the districts that have done

that have faired well. this is important. today is the 50th day the mayor was asked during the primary what his plan was. i think the mayor has a moral obligation to tell people what exactly would he have done differently. we have not heard that and i think we will not. all we can guess is he will do what he did in milwaukee. >> as mayor of the city, balanced budget eight years in a row. i have public safety as my party. the taxes were very comparable to those in the county. the difference was he would not lead. -- lead.

i am a leader. i take responsibility for what i do. he would not do that. you would think he had nothing to do with it. $1 billion higher in spending. this budget, he spent that much more than the last budget. that sounds like an increase in spending to me. >> so everybody is clear, the mayor does not have a plan and all he has is attacking me. that is where you just heard loud and clear. the mayor did not answer the question. >> i would not have started by giving a $2.3 billion cut to corporations and cuts that would benefit the wealthiest people in the state at the time of an economic crisis.

i would the brought people together a round table and said to the schools, you will be part of this. i would say the public employers, let's go back to the taxpayers. they know i am not a pushover. the differences i respect them and their ability to be at the table. >> $3.6 billion budget deficit. in this budget we are talking about. about 200 million out of a $3.6 billion budget deficit were tax incentives connected to jobs from the biggest portions of which were eliminating the state tax and health savings accounts which is beneficial to small businesses and family farmers. you can talk about what will be 10 years down the road but that does not allow you to balance the budget. there is no plan when it comes to budget or economic development. i am the only one with the plan. >> i want to talk about the john doe investigation. you have been pushing answers for questions you say people of the state have. let's spend a few minutes on this.

what have you seen -- what are you saying? he is a negation in criminal behavior -- he is invested in criminal behavior? >> this is all about trust. today another one of his key personnel was granted immunity. the 13th person. she was granted immunity because she refused to answer questions on the grants -- grounds that they may incriminate her. others attend to his office have been charged with crimes and also runs a secret illegal computer system that was 25 feet from your office. i have asked you some easy questions. release the e-mails. release the e-mails you have that are tied to this secret illegal computer system. i have asked you to tell us who is paying your criminal defense. you are the only governor in this country that has a criminal defense line and you owe it to the people of this

state to tell them who is paying a year criminal defense fees. >> the mayor does not have a plan on everything else. i will answer this question. f. -- as we have talked about many times before, my office when i was county executive asked for this investigation because at the time we were not able to get information from the volunteers of all with the veterans' organization. we asked the d.a. to help out and they continued to be just as frustrated. that is what this process begins with. i said time again i am not a target of this. we have been in a process to help with that. mayor, you are a lawyer. i have taken an oath of office to uphold the constitution and the lost their within and abide by the rules. the rules the district attorney

asked to be involved as -- with is to go forward and, when they ask us to comment. but i think the record is clear. when the time was told to us in our office that someone violated our strict policy against using public resources for political purposes, i took action. we took swift action. the a week later, the couple of days later. -- not a week later, not a couple of days later. by the end of that day, that person was blogger working there. the reason the mayor was to talk about this is because he is not winning on jobs, not winning on the budget, not winning on the reforms and was to keep coming back desperately hoping that somehow something will click. even though there is the basis for it. >> i am raising this issue because it goes right to your

trust. you have something you can reveal. the city of milwaukee is withholding for data from the police department that the mill -- milwaukee journal sent out. even the said last year in the primary campaign that violent crime have gone down in the city, the journal sentinel found out that was not the case. it is actually gone up. they have an open records request for hundreds of more cases. i think the voters deserve to know that as well. >> briefly. i want to get back to the other topic. he is running a commercial right now that shows a dead baby. he shows a picture of a dead baby. that baby died.

the person who killed the baby was arrested by the milwaukee police, prosecuted by the district attorney. they did their job. but you know what they did wrong? after the baby died, they did not change the code. it was a bureaucratic mistake. and we said we would fix that. you are running a commercial attacking my integrity claiming that i did something to do with this and you know that as false. you know that is false. you tell me whether you think i had anything to do with that. i will tell you right now, i had nothing to do with that writ you should be ashamed of that commercial. >> the reason we are pointing that out is all out the primary campaign, you told the people one of the key reasons they should vote for you is because your leadership in milwaukee brought about a drop the that the violent crime.

by crime has not gone down. the investigative team has a pointed that out. saying people should go free because by the crime has gone down is not fair. -- should vote for you because myelin crime has gone down is not fair. voters deserve to know. >> if you look at the people who represent the police department, they are frustrated. >> i want to go back to the john doe for a moment. >> 122 average down to 80. when it comes to homicide. i have a police apartment that arrest felons. he has a practice of hiring them. let me go back to a couple of points you made. >> use it or not in a position where you can, but today there was an article written saying if you have not testified in

front of them, you're not down by the secrecy orders. you could release e-mails conceivably. so why haven't you done that? >> because throughout this process of corporate and with the office, he has asked us not to comment on the particulars. all those things he mentioned are asked -- accurate. we abided by that. we are going to do that we did continue to do that. the reality is we complied with everything we have been asked to do. and you look at the record. even in terms of the other day, the sentinel will restore a where they talked about e-mails. -- wrote a story where they talked about e-mails.

it looked at the statement of facts mentioned in that story, the reality is nobody won the bet. the only people that one where the taxpayers because my administration consolidated space. time and again when the facts come out, they clearly showed that the facts are there. >> i want to give you a chance to respond. he says he cannot talk about that because the the hague -- the da has asked him not to. but since you brought it up, with easter e-mails with john dillard. he was the head of your transition team, your treasurer. just clear this up. >> i do have to ask about something that came out tonight. i think your campaign is the letter with it. it was published shortly after 7:00 tonight and it addresses this is you.

you said earlier that you brought the suspicions that you had about behavior around the veterans bonds. he brought that to the attention of the dea. this article says, "milwaukee county prosecutors opened the secret john doe criminal investigation more than two years ago after being stonewalled by governor scott walker's office when he was county executive. the document appears to cast doubts about his claims in cooperating." what is your response? >> there is no direct quote from anybody involved. what it says the that they are either unwilling or unable to read when he first asked me, i mentioned our office was unable to get in permission from individual outside of our office was a volunteer for the veterans' organization. that led to our frustration. my chief of staff took that to

the district attorney and we continue to remain in a position where we are unable to get this information. if you look at -- why would john chisholm has said months ago when he brought up these issues? this is not political. the county executive at the time i asked us to look into them. by making it like that if that is not accurate on my part? of course it is. it is another example of the hype and other issues involved in this. every time the facts come out, they prove what we say. >> i have been in public life for 28 years and no one on my staff has ever been charged with a crime and i have never had a criminal defense fund. let's let's talk about the city of milwaukee. mayor, you have spoken about the fact that you do not like

the tone of the campaign commercials the governor is running. statements to the fact that we do not wisconsin to be like milwaukee. is your record not fair game in this? milwaukee has many attributes and some serious issues. why is that not fair game? >> i think it is fair game just as his record is fair game. it is true that this city like many others has been hit by this economic downturn. it is true that this city is the place in the state where most low-income and people of color reside. it is easy to attack the city. but this is a great city. you bet i'm going to stand up for this city. but he tried to convince people

do not go to summer fest. do not come to milwaukee. he is afraid of milwaukee. i'm here to tell you you do not have to be afraid of milwaukee. this is a great city. did not let our governor make you afraid to come here. he is trying to do it for political gain. that is wrong. >> you talk about crime and poverty and things like that in your ads. but milwaukee also generates a lot of wealth. there are a number of fortune 500 companies. isn't there a danger during collateral damage to the city and its reputation and tourism industry? >> i do not think so at all. i love this city. my wife was born here. she went to school here. >> but you do not want wisconsin to be like it. >> this is a classic example of the major sticking part of what i say and not the rest. i said i did not want wisconsin to face the same kind of

challenges milwaukee has faced under his leadership. i want that for a city. i want to have more positive reforms out there. for years, i traveled the state talking about the tourism and people coming to summer fest and the state fair. talking about people coming to the park. i have a clear record. let's just look at this. last april, i started out with my administration and key members of my cabinet putting together a transform milwaukee plan to help. i did not see that happening. that is a data stark contrast to the mayor put in $100 million in this trolly that goes a mere 2 miles. i think voters around the state, even here in milwaukee deserve to see the difference between the two of us. i want to focus on rebuilding our industrial corridors so that manufacturers can grow here and everywhere across the state.

>> would you did to support that was when there was a mortgage foreclosure sediment -- settlement, he took the discretion portions and did not give it to people who were victims of bait and switch in the crisis in used to plug his budget hole. the second day in switch. i just received a massive layoff notice for one of the mass of companies in the central city of the milwaukee. because it terminated a contract with them. he said we are going to have dozens of people lose their jobs. that is not a governor try to work with the city but score political points at the expense of the city. >> there is a difference there. 35 jobs versus the dolphins of jobs i'm talking about with transform milwaukee. -- versus the thousands of jobs i'm talking about what transform milwaukee. all the way from the north and all the way to the south side of the airport.

>> you welcome the state's efforts? >> absolutely. he was county executive for eight years. i cannot think of it central -- single company help. then he announces this initiative before the election. what a remarkable coincidence. >> that is how you roll up your sleeves and bring people together to get things done. >> i want to talk about the spending that has occurred in this election. we have some folks in the northern part of the state to cannot believe how much money is being spent. they do not feel like they are part of the discussion. they feel like out of state interests are controlling the discussion or union organizations are. they do not feel like this is affecting them in much of a way.

do we need to do something about it? do we learn lessons from this recall and say after we deal with campaign finance reform or do we not need to deal with it? >> if you go back to citizens united and what that has done, let's focus on wisconsin. this is one of the reasons this is still a close race. people fundamentally know there's something wrong when you have a sitting governor who raises 70% of his money from out-of-state. a lot of this money is coming from billionaires' to deny care at all about this state. they view this governor as the rock star of the far right who will do their bidding to bring his conservative ideas here and make this an experimental dish. they love that. they found the place where they can push through the tea party agenda. that is what he is willing to

do for them. >> but he would argue there is money coming from the left, different organizations that are -- >> i will love to be in a position but the fact is he is out spending me 821. -- 8 to 1. i go around the state and people say i recognize the from tv. i say that is probably a commercial that is ripping my face off. >> would you support a special session on campaign finance reform? >> i would. i would absolutely support a special session. economic initiatives as well. >> i think the best thing is to change the recall laws. i think after this recall election on tuesday, you will see democrats and republican lawmakers alike and the populace as whole wanting to change this. i do not think we want to go

back and have -- >> to you will find -- so you will sign legislation if someone put it on your desk? >> that requires two consecutive sessions. you have to act on that before the end of this year. i think that is -- what will happen after tuesday is all the special interests that have come from the entire spectrum. with the millions of dollars came from out of state -- 70% of my contributions are people giving me $50 or less. >> but there were some enormous contributions from out-of-state. you would agree with that? >> absolutely. but the person who gave me $25 just yesterday, it is people who care about the fact that there is finally someone who can take on the special interests.

long after, we can move on and move forward. the only way we do not do that is if the mayor is elected. at that point, i think you start recall pingpong. you will see this all over again. the only way this will end is this -- is if i am able to fill out this term then judges on what we have done. if we have a new person, in the middle of this term, i did not think anybody will want that. >> scott walker came to the county executive following a recall. we talked about this last week. he says he does not recall whether he signed the recall petitions. i will tell you right now, any member of the state legislature decides it recall petition against the city united states senator remembers that. he remembers it. >> do you have evidence that he

signed it? once he was very active during the first movement. he has never denied it. all this has now is i do not have any memory of that. he is obviously a sharp guy. you remember what you signed a recall petition. it is not the kind of thing you forget. >> and decided? >> i cannot believe i did but i do not recall. it was 15 years ago. i think anybody here from milwaukee county remembers a decade -- a decade ago that that was misconduct. there was a pension scandal today still cost the taxpayers of milwaukee millions of dollars. i was the only elected official during that year blinged to stand up and take him on. the mayor -- who decided to stand up and take him on.

nobody else had the courage to stand up. he resigned shortly thereafter. it was a special collection. i think that was legitimate. that kind of misconduct in office warrants a recall election. >> let me take a back to the campaign finance stuff. when i talk to people around the state and say i want to thank the person who wrote with a check for $500,000, they laugh because it does not happen. you could probably take his top dozen donors and they have matched the amount of money i raised in the primary. >> if a wealthy person had come to you -- it did not even have

that option. >> i think democrats, republicans, will want to change everything. people are sick of this. --s to the taxpayers' money they see that taxpayers' money. they just want to move on. >> i agree with that. scott walker started this civil war. he started this. you know and i know that if you had expected in february, 2011, to allow people to pay toward their health care and pension, we would not be sitting here tonight. >> the pension is fundamentally wrong. there are 700 municipalities. there is no way someone can do that. actions speak louder than words. well that was being said, unions

were running out to rush to contracts that had no additional contribution close to what their statewide leaders would pay. they proved it. >> you would not believe it would have accepted it? >> if we had done that on a patrick bases, we would have some school districts that would have benefited piddocks you could have mitt applied to the state and local government. -- benefited. >> you could have had it applied to the state and local government. >> let me bring this to a close. you have the first closing statement. >> thank you, very much. >> i want to thank all of the viewers for to win us. i have no intention to be rock star of the far right. i have no intention to be the

rock star of the affair left -- of the far left. i want to work to create jobs and looked up for the middle class, to increase investment in education and make sure our children and grandchildren can have a chance to be here. this is an important election. it is an election about trust. i am asking me to trust me. to do everything it can to make sure we restore wisconsin study is and we have a governor who will be acting consistently with those bodies. that is what i'm asking for your vote. thank you very much -- values. that is why i am asking for your vote. thank you very much. >> thank you. last friday that i talked about a guy i met. a woman came up and told me she was a democrat and proceeded to

tell me she was voting for me. she said, it is not what you said, it is what you have been willing to do. she'd knowledge, she does not agree with everything i have done. she encouraged that somebody had courage to take on the challenge. it is not unique. people get up and work hard in factories and farms. all across the state. the reason is sitting over there. my sons, by two nieces, for of the of a kid like them, i want to make sure -- might two nieces, and for every other kid like them, i want to make sure they inherit a good wisconsin. we can move this date forward. -- this state forward.

>> thank you for being with us. we want to thank our audience here and at home. also, a special thank to are co- sponsors. thank you for being with us. election day is june 5. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> rules through the debate again between governor scott walker and the milwaukee mayor. now, a preview of tuesday night's wisconsin governor

recall election between scott walker and tom barrett. host: we are joined by mark murray. your other title is a new dad, congratulations. guest: thank you. host: craig gilbert is joining us from ohio. thank you for being with us. guest: nice to be with you. host: what do we expect on tuesday? in terms of turnout, we have seen the polls show that governor walker is slightly ahead in some polls and democrats say it will attend -- will depend on turnout tuesday. what can we expect? guest: there has been amazingly little public polling so we just don't have a lot to go on especially given the national interest in this race. people are expecting a big turnout.

this is a political conflict that has consumed the state for 60 months and everything is building toward tuesday. the same two candidates in 2010 had 50% of voting age adults in the state them out to vote and a presidential race in 2008 was 70%. we have not had -- and a governor's race where the turnout reached 53% in 50 years or 60 years. it can be fascinating to see how much higher than 2010 turnout goes. most people think it will be higher and democrats think the closer it gets to presidential levels, the better off they are. host: let me show you byron york this morning -- guest: president obama is trying to win wisconsin in a presidential election year and

the recall has repercussions for november and repercussions for the state of organized labor and the democratic party and wisconsin. president obama realizes that to be able to win wisconsin, he has to win over independent voters. there are not a lot of people who have not made up their minds in this recall election but the white house realizes they will meet people who are supporting scott walker or maybe who are not voting yet on the recall in favor of tom barrett and they will need those votes. president obama has cut its tv ads and they feel like they'll take a hit. president obama in 2010 when and campaigned for democratic elected officials or candidates and did not work out that well. the white house has a hands-off policy. they think this is the fight of organized labor. host: not a whole lot of polling and wisconsin but there was a market university poll that showed governor walker

ahead slightly. in that sample, the president right now, it showed the president winning wisconsin. guest: they have been living in most of the polling for quite some time. it would not be a shock it both incumbents were victorious in wisconsin just because we're talking about two different elections, two different electorate. they think the turnout will be bigger in september. it will probably be better electorate for present obama than the electorate that votes on tuesday. they are being very risk averse and not coming in here and playing. you don't know if he injects himself into this race, it's

that will help. this is a state that is right on the dividing line right now. they have voted democratic president the last six times since ronald reagan. if scott walker does win, i think you will see that it will encourage the mitt romney campaign to go after wisconsin full tilt. host: there are two debates in this election and we carry both of them on c-span.org. the last one took place last thursday. they talked about jobs and the economy. [video clip] >> before a reform, a handful of special interest dictated what was going to happen. instead, we drew a line in the sand and we will put the power back in my hands of the taxpayers. that is a fundamental difference between the two of us. he wants to restore collective bargaining which means higher

property taxes on working families and others out there. it is the first time robbery taxes have gone down. one of the 10 commandments of the far right is you have to be against unions. >> he would have a fall from grace in the far right if he said he was going to do that so he cannot. he would no longer be the poster boy of the tea party. host: from last week's debate. you have been following this closely in milwaukee and across the state. what is your reaction? guest: the union thing is interesting because if you look at the union households in wisconsin, probably about 40% of them are republican. those people are concentrated

in the private unions, not the public wants of their is a bit of a gap between public and private unions. this issue of right to work is interesting because the governor has gone after the public union but is trying to signal that he will not touch the private unions when it comes to collective bargaining or union rules and how unions organize. it is important for him to hang onto that minority of the union vote to that he does have carried it will be interesting to see what happens with that vote in the exit polls on tuesday. in november of 2010, tom barrett won 63% of the households and scott walker 137%. host: man allyson, wisconsin, good morning. -- madison, wisconsin, good morning. caller: why did the unions threatened scott walker's life and his family and harass his

children and break into the capital and threatened businesses and threaten companies? what would your comment about that? host: we saw the demonstrations in madison, wisconsin. organized labor used this as a way for them to organize across the state and that led to the recall we are seeing on tuesday. guest: this shows you the conflict in wisconsin. what is occurring in that state is neighbor vs. neighbor and employee purchase employee and sometimes friend vs friend. you probably see the most polarized electorate and well foreshadow november. you look at where the caller is talking about where you have union folks who say we are angry with scott walker and what he did. on the flip side, you end up seeing their frustration on the fact that this was something that walker did not campaign on in his gubernatorial election.

this took democrats by surprise raid when you talk to some republicans and observers of what played out, scott walker problem could have gotten about 95% of what he wanted if he had a card of collective bargaining. democrats with a bent over backwards but he decided to go for the one under% and that shows where we are now with the recall. there is so much divisiveness host: and: this is from twister. -- this is from twitter. guest: that is the argument that the governor is making. he has tried to draw a line between them. the unions have cited his comments and caught them on videotape about right to work

where he made a cryptic comment about divide and conquer which they interpreted to mean he is trying to divide the union movement and ultimately going after the private sector. the governor has argued there is a difference, fiscally and republicans and conservatives have made the argument about public-sector unions, that they don't have -- then don't play the same role as private-sector unions and don't have the same kind of rationale. that has been his argument. in the last poll i saw, and all the polling marquette has done in 2012, the democrats have dominated among public-sector union households. pearlie is much narrower among -- but to their lead as much an hour among private-sector union households. you have private union members that care about issues that come into play but the real division is the public employees

whether they are in a union or not had really been mobilized against scott walker in this debate and they are very democratic in their partisan preferences, more so than in the private sector. host: let's go to steve also from wisconsin, a republican. will you be voting on tuesday? caller: yes, i will. host: what do you think the turnout will be? caller: very high and most people will be voting for governor walker. i just wanted to start off real quick -- in 1959, wisconsin passed along that the teachers' union was the only one where the school district could get their insurance from. since then, in some school districts, they have been

charging up to 78% more for the insurance men they could have gotten if they went on to the free market. so far, governor walker has to save the school district's $600 million just in the insurance part of it alone. that is a big start. now the teachers' unions he and the public unions -- the dues from the union comes automatically out of their checkable have to pay for it themselves and the teachers' union, 50% of the people are not sending their checks in and the public sector, it is 67% not sending their checks into the unions. host: thanks for the call. guest: the collective bargaining piece of this has gotten more attention.

some of these things are being fought in court. the short-term impact has been to drive them and union membership and to lessen the incentive for people to join unions. they do not have the ability to collectively bargain the way it did before. it has been a dagger to the public sector unions which is why they organized the recall. they are desperate to stop this policy in its tracks. for their own future. in addition to having public policy implications, it has huge political implications.

you have a republican party that has relied on the business center. you have a democratic party that has relied on the unions bid]] . host: to come back to the recall and a couple of minutes. this tuesday night will have reaction to the recall election on tuesday. it can also be followed online at c-span.org. let's look at some of the battleground states. this is the latest in a series of polls. the key states will determine whether or not the president is reelected. the president is at 44%. mitt romney is up 44%. this is the one statuses been the most competitive -- state that has been the most competitive.

12% undecided in iowa. colorado, nevada, very much within the margin of error. >> it is all tied up. it shows you how competitive is. the presidential election is competitive. what was interesting about these three states, they are not polled as often as others. to be able to look at the snapshot -- what was occurring in this time one is -- time was some unfavorable job numbers. what did begin on friday? a tepid 69,000 jobs that were created. we released polls a week earlier in ohio and florida and virginia showing obama with a slight lead. this is such a close race.

i would expect it to remain close. we will see if there were expert relevance -- external event. >> as you see these polls, what do you think? >> one of the undies in wisconsin has been the provincial members have been more volatile. you would expect the president, such a high-profile figure. we have seen the polls float rub a little bit. we had won earlier in which obama had a 17 point lead. we're lahood poles were reproves colored. -- we had polls where it was tied. in the governor's race, it has

been consistent. people are dug in about scott walker, morse of them are about president obama. that is an interesting aspect. milwaukee is open ended. it is a target for republicans. if they can flip it, it makes him that a lot >> this is a piece those posted on friday. the headline, a bomb they could pick a president among the early -- headline, "mitt romney vice presidentialident \ / \ candidate early piqu." there is a small chance that mitt romney might break with tradition. he has a small circle of

confidants, including his wife and his campaign manager. the process is underway. >> there are two schools of thought. on the one, it could end up having your veep early. it gives you an of the person who can funder is. some of the consent to the campaign trail. president obama has his surrogates. it gives you an extra person to build samoa is. the of the school of thought -- to mibilize. the other school of thought is stakes to your veep build momentum. the one thing you'd be giving up is a lot of this speculation

going into the tampa convention. there will be tons of media. there would be the game of, who is going to be the best presidential pick. if you decide to go early, you take away the speculation. host: let me go back to one line from the peace. once it is complete, it will leave mitt romney with only a handful of potential running mate. guest: it does seem like there is a short list. one of the guys who has been on the list is paul ryan. he campaigned with mitt romney. there has been some speculation about whether he would have the ability to flip wisconsin for

republicans. a lot of these candidates, we do not think of them as being ome- state picks. it has been a long time since a candidate had an impact in a key state. wisconsin is one of those places that could come into i think mitt romney would have to have a lot of other reasons. host: thank you for waiting. caller: thank you. i have to promise that i am prejudiced. i find it republican party morally and ethically poor. i think the coverage of the recall is so important. the person who says they think

-- a obama thinks this is a union fight, is wrong. the republicans' own all of the media coverage. if if they are buying up so many millions and mckeon to of dollars of air time, they are trying to buy the country. that is what they're doing. the media has been sold. i would rather see the media cover this closely. the attack the republicans have used with stop and minorities from voting -- stopping of minorities from voting. tack onas the union at ta walker's family, that sounds

like a republican move. guest: this race is getting a lot of attention. i think from the white house post a point of view, it was not a battle of their chaioosing. that is why you see them holding off. if you come in and risk and lose, you of it the stakes. you elevate the governor. -- you elevate the stakes. you elevate the governor. there are a of a lot of other issues at play. the governor of wisconsin has had a very aggressive agenda. it is an agenda that has a lot of political implications as well as public policy implications. they did pass a far reaching of voter i.d. law. it was held up in court. aspects of it are not in place. it is one the democrats are

fighting bitterly. they argue it will suppress the votes of students and people of color, poor people, seeing as part of the democratic coalition. there is a lot at stake. the outcome, it has national implications, but in wisconsin, it could have far reaching implications in terms of a partisan balance of power. redistricting, the republicans have drawn an aggressive map. it makes it difficult for the democrats. these things are all at stake. host: craig gilbert is doing to us from washington. mark murray, here in washington. first your reaction to the advertisements on the air.

[video clip] >> this two year-old spent seven days in intensive care. police department did not consider it a violent crime. hundreds of beatings, stabbings, and child abuse cases were never counted. busting crime in milwaukee is up. tom barrett is not telling the truth. >> scott walker is playing tricks with job numbers. he did not like the real ones. just like it tricky is playing with the john doe scandal. if walker received or sent any of these e-mails, he is in deep trouble. he has hired criminal attorneys. he has refused to tell us what he said to prosecutors.

host: the unemployment rate in wisconsin, an issue for the campaign. an issue for this scott walker campaign. guest: we have been talking about collective bargaining, a union rights. we'll look at all the television advertisements, the one advertisement you played, tom barrett, soft on crime. you have another added that says he has not done well on the economy. those are the issues being fought on the airwaves. what occurred in 2011 fired everyone up. it is interesting to see this dynamic play out. the advertisement was hitting barrett on being soft on crime. this is a classic strategy of being able to disqualify your opponent. tom barrett only got the democratic nomination on may 8.

he has had less than a month from been engaged in a primary battle to the settlement should. his allies have been hitting him, trying to disqualify him. that strategy, is it so much ted g. will see from president obama. -- that strategy, it is the strategy you will see from president obama. >> this is from our twitter. talk about the spending, by the candidates, and outside spending. who is spending what? >> total spending is way beyond anything we have seen. there is a lot more spending on the republican side. governor walker has raised more than $30 million. he has a national donor list. the result of a recall lock, he could raise contributions of

unlimited size. he took contributions of two and a thousand, three and a thousand from five to a thousand dollars. -- $200,000, $300,000, $500,000. i did not think we have had a competitive race that was this lopsided financially. there is a huge difference there. about what mark to said, i agree. one of the interesting things about the recall law, the only of the recall you had in modern times was in california. that pellet was totally different. that was an up or down vote. before you got to voting for his successor. in this case, it was a regular election ballot. that has been helpful to scott walker in trying to cast this as

a choice. >> [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> joined us tuesday night here on c-span for results and coverage of the wisconsin alexian. on "washington journal," to get analysis on the accuracy of the president to campaign. that 8:30 daniel rosin books of the impact of investors on the u.s. and james cost growth speaking about a medicare recipient. all of that with your phone calls, tweets, and e-mails. tonight on c-span, q&a with tonight on c-span, q&a with douglas