of dot crank -- dodd-frank with joan coldwasser. -- goldwasser. >> "washington durnell" is next. -- "washington journal"is next. host: good morning and welcome to "washington journal" this saturday july 7, 2012. hillary clinton stopped in afghanistan today to announce the nation has been granted special allies state is part of a new partnership deal with the two countries. here on the home front, new jobs numbers out yesterday show unemployment is not change from last month. throughout the country, cities and towns are grappling with balancing their budgets. one city in pennsylvania,

scranton, tried and to cut city workers' pay to minimum wage and that includes firefighters and police. we would like to hear what you think about how cities can control their budgets. how would you get city budgets under control? here are the numbers to call? -- you can also find us online. here is the front page of "the times tribune" of scranton, pennsylvania.

here is the the associated press version of the story -- scranton, pennsylvania is not the only city problem with its budget. we will look at a number of stories about cities and towns across the country. here is what out of kansas from

"the wichita eagle." detroit, michigan is getting help from its brothers. money problems there, and questions about how many police can stay on the job. let's hear from you and how you

would get city budgets under control. from our democratic line, from michigan, good morning. caller: good morning, i live maybe 50 miles from flint, michigan and maybe 30 miles from saginaw, michigan and every morning when i get up, i noticed there have been people that have died in fires and people who have been shot, several children shot and yet our police are laid off. our firemen are laid off and yet our administrators, i feel they should take pay cuts. i feel the city commissioners should take pay cuts. or maybe laid off and bring our firemen and policemen back to work. our little city of a live-in, -- our little city that i live in, we don't have a crime problem.

if you have to go the hospital in saginaw, you are frightened to go down there. host: what else would you do? would you cut new services? caller: i don't know what services i would cut free of would not cut the library and the health department. i would have to look at the total budget. i think our administrators are paid far too much money and they don't work enough and are state legislatures are ridiculous. they are just ridiculous. they take money and they're not hardly at work. host: that is from michigan tying into what she says, here is the detroit news story --

florida, republican caller,. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. i have always said not to be a slave to the federal government. i think the states need to budget their own welfare for the state. i'm not a federalist. i think the less we have been involved in our state of florida, the better off we are. i think our congressmen, senators, in the state of florida, ought to do their homework and make sure that the people of florida -- that their tax dollars are used objectively and unemotionally. when you stop and think of florida and the money that comes in through taxation, sales tax,

you name it -- they can't manage their budgets the way they expect our families to do it. i think they need to do their homework and think about not their own pocketbooks but the people that live in the state. and manage their money better like family do. host: are talking about getting city budgets under control and you can tell us the story about your community. a democrat from hayward, calif., good morning. caller: good morning, $7 per hour for firemen? that is unheard of here in california. we are cutting millionaires and billionaires taxes. they don't have to pay anything.

it has all fall in on the backs -- what about the firefighters in colorado? they have all these fires and we expect people to work for $7 per hour? the millionaires and billionaires are jetskiing around on affected. -- unaffected. the republican plan is to cut more for the firemen and -- is to cut more for the millionaires and let the firemen and policemen beat them? let me say one other thing -- our bible tells us -- the republicans tell us they are religious but the bible says in the last days, we will be lovers of our cells rather than lovers

of god and we would rather believe the light rather than the truth. the propaganda that these millionaires are putting out here and people are buying into it like it's the truth, we're going to wake up and realize you have had been had. host: what would you like to see communities do? should they have a higher income tax or higher property tax? caller: we definitely need higher property taxes. they need to stop like i believe in wisconsin, they went ahead and gave tax cuts to the rich millionaire bodies. -- buddies. they went in there and did the union busting. it is ridiculous. we cannot keep cutting taxes for the rich.

even the bank bailouts -- host: let's look at more of the story --

aurora, colorado, on our democrats line. caller: i am calling on the independent line. i work for one of the large financial institutions and it is sad for me to see about the rhetoric is blaming tensions and wages for economic situations. our high compliment was caused by the bank failures in 2008. millions of people lost their jobs. in just a matter of a few months. it decimated tax bases and, in my particular city, there were also investments by cities into

derivatives and all kinds of things which also decimated the basis. i am in favor of what is considered in europe to put a very small incremental tax, like less than 1%, less than 1cent, to stop derivatives transactions. they have not contributed to what has caused this terrible economic situation and they can afford to bring back the economy to the states and local jurisdictions. thank you. host: here is a comment from twitter -- chicago, illinois, our democrat line --

caller: in chicago we have 50 aldermen. they get paid $150,000 or more per year for a part-time job. i think they should lay off them for the north side, the west side, the east side, and the south side. they are cutting hours, cutting libraries, this is what i came on to say about how we look at where the money goes. in chicago, it is going to 50 people we down need and get a lot of money. host: there is a story here in "the wall street journal," on their editorial page --

that is one option, an example of the way one city is looking to close some budget gaps. another comment comes to us off from twitter --

you can join in the conversation on twitter. you can also send us an e-mail. we can share your comments on line. here are some other stories --" the miami herald" it looks that jobs and housing. you can see a range of things that people in florida are looking at. we have a picture of jobs yester day nationally, the latest monthly report. here is "the washington post" --

on our program," newsmakers"that airs on sunday, we'll talk with a leader of the labor union, lee saunders. he talked about how pensions are playing into the picture, one place where city governments and

states are looking to trim costs. >> the pension issue is a tough issue for us. we've had to set the facts straight. the average pension that a retiree receives is $19,000 per year. you have some folks that say that as a huge amount. they say they are ripping off the system. $19,000 per year is not a huge amount. that represents money that the into thater has put system. it is not coming from the state, that employee has put into the system because they expect their retirement at the end of their twilight years. what we've got to do is to get those kind of facts out but we also got to bring together not only folks and labor unions but academics and politicians and sit down and talk about the issue of pensions. i propose to do that.

my first executive board meeting, said that would be a priority for my administration and we would look at the pension issue. maybe we can think outside the box and seek advice, seek recommendations, have a discussion, have communication with folks outside of labour and see where we can go with this. host: you can watch that tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. at 6:00 p.m. eastern time and find it on c-span and listen to it on cspan radio. we are asking you how you would get city budgets under control. her pension is a place to look for health care programs? the city of scranton is attempting to cut back city workers' pay to minimum wage. here are the numbers to call -- we have a pennsylvanian on the line from mechanics per, independent.

caller: thanks for taking my call. you mentioned pennsylvania and scranton is interesting. i live close to the harrisburg capital. they have the same problem. they have run a budget deficit for 20-30 years. they say the city is $1.5 billion in the red. they have even done audits and i cannot figure out the problems that has created -- that has been created. how should we controlled his budget deficits? we need politicians and the minister izard -- and administrators at all levels understand -- need to understand that they need to do what needs to be done. it is not easy just handing out money they don't have. we need to replace some of the

politicians who don't understand how to count. host: would you ever run for office? caller: i have thought about it but i have not. i think that's what needs to happen, we need new blood. maybe the country needs more and more citizen legislators, citizen council members, who are not career politicians. that is a big problem across the country. host: what about what is going on in scranton? >> i have relatives that live in that area. it is amazing. it is a tough situation. all of these cities including scranton simply don't have the tax revenue. the mayor is a good mayor. i have met the man he is a good guy and he is trying to balance the budget which he is required to do and he said he has to pay the full amount salary. it is a tough situation because these cities don't have the money. it is not that they are good or

bad manners that are trying to herd the workers, they simply don't have the money. i don't know how to get out of that situation other than to cut services and raise taxes. no one will like that but that is the situation in most of these cities and towns i think it will take top politicians like the mayor of scranton to make a tough decision and stick to it. i think that's the answer. host: here's a comment from twitter -- our last caller from pennsylvania mentioned what is happening at the state level and here is a story from "bloomberg business week" -

legislation to extend the ban passed the state assembly june 30, late last month, two days after stockton, calif. became the biggest u.s. city by population to seek bankruptcy court protection. hillsdale, mich., democrats line, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. we are here in southern michigan. we have lost quite a few factories since nafta came in.

our roads have to read -- deteriorated. it took three years to get one of our major roads fixed. my personal opinion is we need to put a freeze on local and state government. i noticed our state government would give themselves 3-10% raises yearly. the average guy might get a 2% raise in a factory which factories are left and there are the years where you don't get a cost-of-living increase. our infrastructure is really bad. in california, the city bought a machine to tareq the roads and re-lay it down.

why couldn't three counties by a machine like this and hire unemployed people and re-lay the streets? people have to pitch in ideas to their local governments and state elected officials. there has to be some way of cutting costs. where i'm trying to make people see what might be helpful. host: here is a comment from twitter -- chesapeake, virginia, republican, how're things where you are? caller: thank you for taking my call. there are two reasons however believe the budget needs to be cut. in my area, the median income

is the $65,000 per year. we have a city manager whose salary is $220,000 and assistant city managers whose salaries are over $130,000. i am one for rewarding people for their educational process but that goes a little too far one of my other ideas is in schools where where you have less than 1200 students, i don't understand -- in my day we had one principle, one prison -- one the system, and one dean. i grew up in new york city and schools under two hundred kids had one principle and four assistant principals whose salaries are over $80,000 per year. it seems unnecessary and we need to get back to reality. these huge salaries for upper management not only are a detriment to the budget in the short term but also in the long term considering the retirement

liability to the city. thank you for taking my call. host: those are some ideas about trimming spending. what would you do to get city spending under control? baltimore, maryland, on our independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. it is time the start laying off all these politicians, 80% of them. get rid of their staff and cut their benefits. they are making more money than anybody else in the state and the taxpayers have to foot the bill for their medical benefits. it is time they start paying their fair share. host: do you have a concern that that would discourage your average citizen for running for office if they could not afford

to do it without having another job? caller: let them do with another job. host: what else would you do? caller: the taxpayers are working two and three jobs. why should we have to foot the bill to pay their medical benefits and their big salaries? there is way to mentee representatives and the state of maryland and across the country. the house of representatives? the senate? there is 435 members of the house of representatives. let's cut that down to about 100. all their staff and make them pay for their benefits and how much money with that said across the country? host: democrats line, lake george, new york, good morning. caller: good morning, one

suggestion i would have here, in this albany area, we have a couple of investigative reporters on the local news that spotlighted the crazy spending things we are paying for. one of my suggestions his contact your local news. tell them you don't want to hear stories about pet parades. this is a serious time. found out earlier this year that we have paid $200,000 for bottled water for our legislators in a three-month period of time. i really don't think i need to pay for their bottled water. we also had a huge investigation and a recent gigantic auction. we found literally thousands of cars that have been purchased and never even driven that were in parking lots all over albany.

they had a huge online auction selling these cars to get them off the books and get the money back into the budget. our legislators are part-time. in new york, this is an amazing deal. they don't have anybody who monitors whether they are really they're not. they can put in per diem costs, they can put in all kinds of charges. one guy is under investigation and he has not been there for most of the time he is getting paid. i think we really have to pay close attention and we have to reward our television stations and their newspapers that are willing to do the footwork to do investigative stuff to get this in front of us. these legislators spent all day and all my hiding it from us. host: here is a story from tampa

bay.com - cities are grappling with how to balance their budgets and we're talking about what some options are and what they are facing and what the mayors are proposing. a republican from louisville, kentucky, what is it like where you are? caller: the job market is not to bet your but it is bad enough. if they get rid of some of that white house trash out there and get some money out here for the people, maybe they could get some jobs and get all these women on welfare who are working

only when they have to. they know what to do to clean this mess up. host: restored from "the financial times" - we heard president obama talking yesterday. we also heard from mitt romney and we will hear clips of them later this morning and we will talk more in depth about the jobs numbers and what unemployment means throughout america coming up on [captioning performed by national captioning institute] "washington journal" caller: good morning.

when the average person makes a mistake and is house goes into the ground, he pays for it. the people we pay to take care of our checkbook that are incapable of doing it are abusing the system. they need to pay for what is happening. we need to open up the system to regular people to be able to get into office and run for these positions. it is a closed off system right now where people with money are the people in power their the ones telling us what to do. eight years under the bush administration, he gave obama a collapsed economy and one day, after the economy collapses, they come to us and say we have no money. what were you doing for eight years?

all of a sudden, we are broke. now it is our fault? the people we paid to watch the checkbook blame us. something needs to change and the entire system. host: you can share your opinions on twitter -- all weekend long, book-tv and the american history tv will be featuring the history and literary culture of jefferson city, the capital of missouri. the author of the american military history is one of the folks we're talking to and here is a clip of him discussing the universal art of war. >> oliver wendell holmes who was

a colonel in the american civil war and became a justice of the supreme court said in a speech in 1884 that to fight in work, you must believe in something with all your might. he said in this speech that this is the fundamental aspect of all wars, small, big. the civil war was the big event in his life looking forward, this idea of the leaving and wanting something with all your might -- that transcends any. in american history. it is a dimension of the art of war that is almost universal, the belief, the want, and a sense of all your might, giving yourself fully to something. without becoming overly spiritual, this is something that is a little alien to us perhaps in the 20th century.

navy seals or delta force, i think they tap into that feeling of total immersion in something, giving yourself wholly. i think that is a dimension of warfare that is almost universal. even in these early periods for the skirmishes and complex for less technological and more about ambushes and sneaking up on the enemy, even in these early conflicts, we still can recognize that the sentiment of the warrior is the idea of a total immersion in some kind of purpose. host: that is the author of an american military history on book-tv in jefferson city, missouri this weekend. that water is one of the many people we are checking in with a

new confine that throughout the weekend c-span.org/local content. we're talking about how you would get city budgets under control. let's look at a couple of other stories in the news -- this is fresh off the wires this morning -- here is " the new york times"

the u.s. is not the only country watching its jobs numbers. here is a piece that we are seeing from "the washington post" -- this is part of a series examines the struggle for power in the arab world as longtime leaders have fallen politicians are running on a platform of promising to boost jobs. here is a picture you can see an image of an egyptian worker on loading watermelons in a market

in cairo. unemployment soared as sierra spring left the egyptian economy in tatters. -- soared as the hour of spring left the egyptian economy in tatters. are democrats line is up next in florida -- caller: i want to say that age 21, i'm a sergeant in the marine corps. by 1981, i got out of the marine corps and was making $10 per hour at a union job at a car plant in central illinois. my father worked hard for those connections. he was a korean war veteran. it is sad to look at your generation in 2012 and say a majority of americans having a wage of $10 per hour. if you figure the inflation

rate, with all the wages, -- with all the profits going to the very top, what we are really witnessing regardless of your political agenda is the agenda to privatize all public services. i might have been born in a public hospital in springfield, illinois and my daughter was as well and it cost my family in 1958, $15 and the cost myself in 1988, $15. today they want to push -- president bush did not know that the storm was coming to hit katrina. the storm took two weeks to hit

louisiana. if you look at things honestly, the army was late to get there to fix of the wal-mart was there in advance. we are looking at a switching of public citizenship and caring about the community. the firemen who ran on to the bill -- into the buildings on 9/11, they would die for each other out of a sense of community and citizenship in the most powerful city but now they are considered bad because they want to retire with a pension. if the poor people are so angry at making $9 per hour at a target, if we are now the new terrorist, please realize we love our country and we are workers and be more brave and

equally patriotic but please don't attack us because we stood up for ourselves and realized that when the cooperations takeover, they will not lower the taxes. they will increase them. give yourself a fair comparison like when you talk -- like when askinglk into a lowe's, a legitimate question, they are walking left and right and you cannot find them. i'm not saying that the corporations are malevolent or bat but when you put corporations in charge, will lose their citizenship. host: we heard one proposal by the mayor of chicago to a look at corporations adding funding to get things boosted in cities. here's a comment on twitter --

chester, pa. is next with patrick, a republican. caller: you are looking very attractive this morning. host: what you think about budgets this morning? caller: the cost of crime is almost immeasurable how much it is costing us to keep these criminals from committing crimes. the fbi statistics shows how bad it is. i would think we have to start getting rid of some of these people. two felonies and you lose your citizenship and you should be deported. host: where would you send them? caller: most of them are black so i was summoned back to africa where they belong. host: i don't know how to respond to that. a democratic caller in tennessee, what is your idea?

caller: i would like to respond to the caller just ahead. there is no label on who is doing the most crime. there are more whites in this country and when i look at the tv, is mostly whites locked up in these prisons. if they can get more stimulus from the government, it could help to put money in these communities and open up training centers for people. the republicans are holding onto that money. they should let the money come through and the states cantons -- and distributed to the city's, to schools, factories, and the rich are spending this money -- as my on the ads and they can help the firemen and the police with that money. and school teachers. they can take that money they're spending on ads to help with these states, thank you very much. host: ralph is a republican caller from gilbert, ariz..

caller: i want to say a couple of comments a real quick. if local government, possibly state government, would have a flat tax, 12%, keep your services like they are and not actually penalize those who are hurting any way and try it for three months ended the works, great, and it doesn't, go back to some other type of something which the city fathers would come up with. host: here's a comment from daniel --

a final comment on twitter -- thank you for your calls. coming up next, we look at the unemployment numbers with reuters. later on, we will have a discussion on how dodd-frank legislation impacts your credit and debit cards. we will be right back. >> here's a look at some books being published this week -- james carville and stan greenberg present their arguments on where the government has failed and how to fix it. in a story of war in the light that falls, former u.s. air

force officer brian castner recounts his experience disarming ied's. then the impact a cheap -- a chevy ads -- then the impact of hiv aids in africa. andrew zolli analyzes have a certain people flourished during bad times. look for these titles in bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors in the near future on book-tv and don book-tv.org. >> problem is right from the beginning, we start tying our hands. the first time was general

petraeus and stanley microscope recommended a minimal force of 40,000 and we give them 30,000. they want to conduct simultaneous campaign in the south and east to collapse the enemy and put pressure on them. without the additional 10,000, they could not do it and we have to do a sequentially. the protracted war and drove of casualties and evaporated more political will at home. the second problem we have is general petraeus wants to keep the search forces that the president gave him much longer at a much higher level. they're all gone before this year is out that is where we are at the point of your question. given those dynamics have already happened, there's pressure on the commanders to stay on schedule that transitions our combat forces in 2013 totally, not 2014, and be out of there by 2014. in my judgment, what is

happening to support that is far from condition-based. that is a date we are moving to and, by god, we're doing it. we should take the pressure off of them so they can come back and say we have to slow this down. >> with nato forces scheduled to withdraw from afghanistan in 2014, military experts testified on the progress of afghan security forces. watch the hearing on line at the cspan video library. "washington journal" continues -- host: pedro de costa is from a reuters. looking at the june jobs numbers, and surprises? guest: it was more of a big disappointment and a surprise. people were hoping that some of the weather effects that had kicked in her earlier in the year and doubts about the the datant weakness in up -- there is a theory that the winter was unusually warm,

people hired earlier than usual and that was stealing employment from some of those spring months and we would eventually see a bounce back. this is the first piece of data that escapes the time frame and suggests the u.s. labor market really has kicked into a slower gear than it did in the first quarter. host: here is the headline from " the new york times" -- we see that there were jobs created. we saw 80,000 jobs added. breakdown for us when we hear jobs created, it is not a good is a thing is we want to hear. guest: 80,000 is a net number. you are taking the millions of jobs that were created and millions of jobs that were lost and netting them out. you have to keep in mind that the economy estimates that in order to keep up with population

growth, payrolls have to grow at least 150,000 per month. if we stay at 80,000, we're losing ground. you see that in the unemployment rate which is now stuck at 8.2%. there's a few votes for it to go down below that before the election. host: the unemployment rate was not changed, 8.2%. "the washington post"said as - what is the significance? guest:unchanged is bad when you come from a nasty place. we're coming at a bad recession and two years of recovery but it has not translated into a kind of job growth in need to make up the whole you had in a recession. unchanged is really moving

backwards at this point because we are getting more people into the labour market and there are not enough just to keep up with them. host: pedro de caosta is the economics editor for reuters. here are the numbers to get involved with the conversation -- let's take a look at how president obama responded to the jobs numbers that cannot yesterday. he was in ohio and took a moment to comment on how this is heading. >> we learned this morning that our businesses created 84,000 jobs last month and that overall means that businesses have created 4.4 million new jobs over the past 28 months including 500,000 new manufacturing jobs. [applause] that is a step in the right

direction. that is a step in the right direction but we cannot be satisfied because our goal was never to just keep on working to get back to where we were back in 2007. i want to get back to a time when middle-class families and those working to get into the middle class have some basic security. that is our goal. [applause] we've got to grow the economy even faster and put more people back to work. host: that was president obama speaking and we will hear a little bit from mitt romney. how're the politicians benning the jobs numbers? guest: obama has to make the case that while we see signs of stagnation, we have dug their way of aid -- out of a deep hole and the as to point to the progress which is all he has. we'll see if that is good enough an mitt romney compound the fact that -- the timing for him could

not be better because we seem to be heading stall speed in the months before the election. the head to the economy most recently has been outside of president obama's hands. it has really come from the push back from the european crisis we are getting and the spillover effects. it is difficult for the president to continue making the case that things are getting better when they are clearly not. host: from " the new york times" ---

talk to us about how jobs are being created and where they are being created and any signs of optimism. guest: i think there are pockets of markets within the country that you can point to strength. there are places like technology and energy in particular, the natural gas shale boom has led to job creation but these are specialized small areas. the bulk of sectors are seeing losses. one sector of concern is manufacturing. there was a report of manufacturing in june that looks carrier than the jobs report. the index for new orders which usually is a pointer for the future posted its biggest drop since 9/11. that was something that was concerning. you saw sectors that usually have a lot of strength barely growing at all or shedding jobs.

you have consistent job losses in local and state governments as those sectors trim their budgets. host: the washington post looks at the jobs by sector. you concede that the u.s. unemployment rate -- june at 8.2% which is better than 2009. guest: right. host: is the big picture of a long term. guest: when the president took office, we were losing about half a million jobs per month and he inherited a bad situation. over the course of the recession which was the worst since the great depression, we lost about 8.5 million jobs. since the recovery began, and

the summer of 2009, we have made up about 5.5 million jobs so we still have about 3 million to make up. that is not counting the new entrants into the labour market. kids are graduating from high school and college and going into labor market. it was a lot of ground to make up but we have made some progress. host: here is independent caller from worcester, massachusetts. caller: i worked at ups for over 16 years. the market fluctuates off and on. a lot of jobs are created in january and created again in september. we talk about june numbers, i am not sure why. guest: the numbers that are

released officially by the government have a seasonal adjusted factor built into them. the government statisticians don't always get it right but they try to factor out things like seasonal shifts and seasonal hiring by auto industry factors, for instance. the numbers should reflect what we are seeing per month host: how did they figure these numbers out? guest: there are two different surveys. there is the payroll survey taken from companies where they survey the companies for how many people have been added to payrolls. this is a comprehensive survey. there's also the survey through which we get the unemployment rate and that is called the household survey and that is conducted by telephone by calling a representative sample of americans and asking if they

have been looking for work and when the last time they had a job. these are the two different pieces of data. that we look at. host: as our guest said, the numbers were anemic. let's get back to the phones, democrats online, colonial heights, virginia. hello? caller:hi, yes, if congress would just sign a bill, would we have more jobs? host: bill would that be? caller: we have teachers that

need jobs. you have construction. you have police and firefighters. i don't understand why they are out. host: looking at the issue of public employees being out of work around the country, was congress doing to talk about jobs? guest: there is not a lot of action. president obama has a couple of bills and the works, in particular a push for infrastructure investments. he does not seem -- one of the problems he runs into is that while he has made progress on the jobs front, the jobs situation seems to be stalling out any doesn't have a next plan for really getting us in the right direction. he has tidbits of ideas for particular sectors but not a grand plan that you might see an election year. there is a case to be made that the republicans are stalling the

measures that he has taken. host: let's hear from mitt romney responded to the jobs numbers in new hampshire yesterday. this right after they came out. [video clip] >> we have seen the jobs report. it is a kick in the gut. american families are struggling. there is a lot of misery in america today. these numbers understate what people are feeling. and the amount of pain which is occurring in middle-class america. on only is the 8.2% number hi, and one that has been in place for over four -- 41 months, but if you look at the broader analysis of people who are out of work or dropped out of the work force or they are underemployed in part-time jobs, any full-time work, it is

almost 15% of the public. >host: mitt romney responding to the jobs numbers. how republicans talking about these numbers? guest: they're saying it is easy to blame the job numbers on the sitting president. the president should on the up and take responsibility for the economy. i should not -- the president should own up and take responsibility for the economy. i have an heard concrete arguments. i do not know, other than the usual description of lowering taxes, i have not seen concrete ways in which they would intend to get jobs created. you see a lack of creativity on both sides of the alley. to get back to a previous . about jobs, is one of the issues is normally in a recession, we would have government sspending make up

for the gap where the private sector slows down. instead, we are seeing the public sector shed jobs. that has been very detrimental. we will see what happens. there are concerns that because of spending cuts and tax increases that are set to kick in towards the end of the year, the fiscal cliff will accelerate. host: we are speaking with pedro de costa. independent.n maria? my mistake. go ahead. caller: yes, i am -- it is obvious. i am against welfare 100%. because welfare is a waste of money. it is supposed to be for people

who are not able to work and a lot of people are taking advantage of it. a lot of children. guest: how would you feel about people getting paid to work rather than for welfare? caller: well, i am -- and a lot of people are complaining about not having a job, but my experience is that every time i have to deal with questions from the government, they always have an attitude. guest: -- host: she lives in miami. as a look at these jobs numbers, unemployment benefits have been a hot issue. she was talking about welfare.

there is another program, unemployment benefits, that helps people to work out of a job. talk to us about how these numbers affect reality. we have a tweet -- host: pedro de costa, explain the numbers. >guest: could argue the real number is 15% in the sense that you have another figure that discouraged workers are put in. people who stopped looking. thepoint isr great in sense it is higher. we are not at 30%. that is the answer. as far as unemployment benefits are concerned, there are two different sides. there are people who see

benefits as a kind of automatic stable. they kicked in when times are hard. they expire as the economy improves. we have had such a slow recovery that congress has been forced to extend benefits to many people on an emergency basis. there are those who say that unemployment benefits discourage people from looking for work. if you're getting checks from the government, you do not need to go look for work. i think that given the relatively meager amounts you are getting, it is not a major incentive for you to sit at home. host: jude is in missouri. republican. good morning. caller: good morning. i like to stipulate -- i'm a moderate republican. i often sit in amazement at how

this current president of the u.s. seems to be playing chess while those that i just spoke of in the house -- the tea part -- seem to be playing checkers. this gentleman puts forward a proposition championed by the heritage foundation -- host: who? caller: president obama. he put forward a proposition championed by a think tank. his current foe, mitt romney. somehow, he is a demon. secondly, he puts forth a bill to help infrastructure in this

country. which is crumbling. most infrastructure has not been touched in over 30 years, which would put white middle-class men who seem to love to vote against their best interest -- he puts forth that infrastructure bill. host: we are talking about the unemployment number. caller: the president. this affects unemployment. he puts forth in infrastructure that employs 50 million construction workers. it is languages in the house. -- it languishes in the house. guest: i would say that there is a case that republicans have been obstructionists' with regard to the president obama. he was referring to the notion of an individual mandate was something that was originally

championed by the right and it is that very issue that became the court in the supreme court fight over health care. host: douglas on our democrats' line in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to address an issue that i have never discussed before. that is the underground economy. a lot of people have some kind of something going on on the side to make extra money. i'm talking by babysitters and musicians to drug dealers. is there anyone looking at the state of the underground economy? guest: absolutely. i actually had a colleague asking me about that the other day because i cover that.

they have been a couple of papers. one of the recenasons he is not discussed is it is hard to measure. having spent a lot of my childhood in brazil, it is a bad sign for your economy when the underground economy increases because the government is losing tax revenue. people are operating outside the normal economic system. i would say that in a time of a prolonged recession or a slow recovery, the fact that you do get a growth of the underground economy is a negative for us. host: pedro de costa is an economic correspondent for reuters. he has done his absence 2009. guest: thousand one. -- 2001. host: 2001, i am sorry.

he received a bachelor's degree from the london school of economics. he studied at the university of california. we're looking at the jobs numbers. unemployment and job growth came out yesterday. our next call is on our independent line in houston, texas. hello, brian. -- ryan. caller: i have a comment as to a previous caller. i thought it was humorous to watch the republicans attempt to criticize president obama. because what i believe is that president obama has actually done fairly republican things in his extension of the tax cuts as well as his strong military intervention. anyway, thank you for addressing the economic situation. my question is -- i fail to hear any kind of plans that i believe might fix the economic market. these would be the massive debt that continues to grow as well

as the continued reckless lending that happens within banks. i am wondering if either party might have a concrete plan to fix either of these two things? guest: when you talk about the debt as an impediment to economic growth, you have to think about coups debt -- whose debt. high household debt levels and high levels of debt within the banking system are definitely problematic for our economy. now, there is discussion as to whether or not high government debt levels are bad for us. not because there is a school of thought with significant faction within the economic community that says that government deficits have to rise during weak economic times in order to make cuts so that the gap in spending within the private sector -- addressing debt is a difficult issue. on a personal level, consumers

are still saddled with a lot of dead from the boom years. including underwater mortgages. this is something that takes years to fix. host: bill would like to give you a rundown on the labor force petition -- participation rate. guest: the labor force participation rate is the rate at which workers are participating in the labor market. labor force participation has become an important issue because in the recent recovery, you saw a very sharp decline in the unemployment rate. it was around 9%. it quickly fell down to the mid 8.5% range. economists were baffled because economic growth was rapid enough to justify that. the conclusion that they can do is that the reason why the unemployment rate was up so because workers were

leaving the labor force. actually, according to some economists, the bulk of the decline we have seen from the peak of 10% is because of that. that suggests the labor market is in a worse state. one thing is expected -- as the labor market improves and you see the participation rate increase, you might see the unemployment rate increase for a time before it comes back down. host: to hear from our next caller in new jersey. republican. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? thank you for c-span. i am unemployed union carpenter from atlantic city. i have been out of work since 2008. i like what your last caller just said. basically, the unemployment

rate is a lot higher than 8.2% because your guest does not realize that a lot of people do not collect unemployment anymore and have dropped out of the work force. a lot of people are discouraged on getting jobs and they are overqualified for the jobs that they want so they do not get hired because they have not worked in three or four years. host: pedro de costa did mention that. tell us about your experience. have you seen friends or relatives had that experience? caller: i have seen a lot of union carpenters -- i interviewed at a prominent casino in atlantic city. there were two carpenter positions they were hiring for. they sent 13 carpenters. how are you supposed to get hired if there are that many people applying for two jobs? i was out of work for to put five years. i interviewed 02 different

times. -- 8 different times. i got a temporary job for 12 weeks, if that. i was laid off again. it is discouraging. these job numbers are not correct. it is more like 11%. i want to thank you for c-span. host: thank you for your call. guest: thank you for the call. i would be loath to underplay the difficulties of that people are going to. that is not my intention. i would say that he said 10%, that is probably closer to the 50% mark. when you include the factor about discouraged workers. -- the 15% mark. when you include a factor about discouraged workers. long-term unemployment is becoming a serious problem. long-term unemployment is bad because you are without a job for a long time and it is a

strenuous experience for anybody who has that had a job. also, the issue is that the longer you go without work, the harder it is to get work. the kind of less qualified you are and the more out of touch with the way technology functions. that can translate into higher structural unemployment, unemployment that is difficult to fix because it is not amenable to solutions like fiscal policy. host: "the new york times" -- here are some demographics. this is looking at the june numbers.

guest: that is extremely high. if you look at the youth unemployment did europe, the category is 19 to 24. we're talking about similar numbers. this suggests that is essentially, you have got so many very experienced workers out there without a job that the kid looking for a summer job will not get the job. it will be offered to someone with more experience. you hear that over and over were people are way overqualified for the jobs they apply for. host: let us go to jersey city, new jersey. caller: hello, pedro. how are you doing? i just got a concern regarding the h1b and l1b visa. seems to me that there is not enough debate on that issue regarding its effect on employment.

i am sure you are not know about this. h1b -- there are restrictions on what types of work you can do. for l1, it is more problematic because there is no restriction on how much salary you can pay your employees. a lot of companies take advantage of those workers by not paying the full salary. you get cheaper workers to work here. i am sorry for my demonology. the general question is what can be done in terms of jobs? guest: i honestly do not know enough about the issue to give you a clear answer. i would love to look into that. host: are you still with us?

why is that important to you when we are talking about getting jobs? caller: i am from the technology sector. i am still employed, but i see a lot of competitiveness in my field. a lot of workers unemployed and getting bumped out. they're importing workers from different countries. guest: where? caller: from india. china. guest: they will come in on these programs and they are offered lower wages than their running wage for u.s.-based workers? caller: the l1 lisa -- the h1 visa is more restrictive. they can go around that. guest: i do not know enough about the issue to give you a

good answer but i will look into it. look at my blog and i will put something on it. i will see what i can gather. host: pedro de costa, economics correspondent at reuters. here is his feet on the website. macro scope. you can see is posting. find his writing there as well as other places. let us go to a republican in south carolina. good morning. caller: yes. i am calling because i am upset with what is going on with the small city governments. the city government's. there is so much corruption and spending and i am from new york. up in new york, there are people collecting double pensions. people are -- they just had a big thing with the long island rail road with all the

corruption that was going on. none of these people that are breaking the law at an end stealing from the -- and stealing from the small people are getting prosecuted. with these investment banks, nobody is getting prosecuted. you know, it keeps continuing. guest: are you worried about the local politicians or investment banks? caller: both. it is like there is no accountability. nobody knows where the money is going. my taxes in new york quartet thousand dollars per year. i almost lost my house because of the city government. host: touching on what we are talking about earlier, looking at ways cities can cut their spending. we are talking about everything from municipal workers' pay to how governments are run. guest: i cannot speak to new

york policies specifically. i can say that as a journalist, i suffer from outrage fatigue. you see so many signs of corruption in the corporate and government sectors. you cannot believe how frequent it happens. i can totally relate to the fact that -- that is an underlying issue that we need to address. i do not care what policies you enact. trust is a basic principle. host: we are looking at the unemployment numbers. job added in june equaled about $80,000. our next caller is michelle, democrats' line in florida. good morning. are you with us? one last time. caller: can you hear me?

host: we sure can. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am unemployed. i am a 45-year-old single person. i would like to comment on the comment your guest may about trusting the government. i will look forward to social security and retirement and everything that i see earlier generations enjoying. it has come to the point where i do not want to vote any more. i am not encouraged by anything any of my local, state, or national politicians or government has to say. finding out that over 70% of my congress, senate, and house are

millionaires -- these people have so much money. i just want to look forward to working the next 20 years so i can add to my social security and have medical benefits. i want to work. i really do not see it happening. thank you so much. i love your show. guest: cannot relate? you saw the headline in "the washington post" about how many congressmen and senators left meetings with the federal reserve during the height of the financial crisis. they talked to their brokers to adjust their portfolios with the inside knowledge that they had. that is actually legal because there are no insider-trading laws aecting lawmakers. that kind of discouragement -- politicians are really short reminded and they are looking at the next election. both parties are losing streak

that give block -- losing through the gridlock. host: go to virginia from missouri. hello. but on. you are on the air with -- welcome. you are on the air with pedro de costa. caller: i am a nurse. i have worked for 37 years as a nurse. i am seeing some things now in the hospital' that are very concerning to me. and what i have seen is empty beds. more and more empty beds that is progressing to empty floors. nurses are furloughed.

guest: is this due to budget cuts? caller: i am wondering. i am not sure. i am thinking it may be because of the cuts that were put into medicare and medicare reimbursement. i don't know that. but i think it is the same situation in other hospitals around the area. host: are right. guest: -- all right. guest: if you see somebody around the office, you wonder if it is someone trying to figure out what jobs they can cut. it is a sense of insecurity shared by a lot of americans.

host: some more numbers in "the new york times" -- host: talk to us about people who are underemployed. guest: there are a lot of people who are underemployed. there might be a certain cohort of people were waiting for that better job. i do not know. when i first got out of school and i was unemployed, i was willing to work for whoever would pay me. i think when your are in a tough enough wind, i do not see attitude being a major barrier. perhaps maybe it is. when given the choice between making money and making no money, most people take the job.

i do not think it is a major impediment. host: when people are looking for full-time work that are working part-time, how does that affect the jobs numbers? guest: well, if they are involuntarily part time, they will show up on the broader figure and not in the lower unemployment rate. even though they are underemployed, they do not really count as unemployed. host: it is your from sheila -- let us hear from sheila in kansas. caller: good morning. i have been in hospitality for 40 years. i have followed these downturns. normally, the tavern industry does well during downturns. this last few years, the neighborhood bars are closing. hundreds of thousands in ohio, minnesota, michigan, kansas.

most of our employees are part- time. they do not qualify for unemployment. some people who have other jobs -- this is their extra spending money. the taverns are just closing. people are telling me that it is smoking bans. i do not know. i wish somebody would look into it. host: thank guest: part of what is missing from the platform of candidates is something concrete of what they would do to fix the uncertainty. there is something psychological about an economic recovery. if you can make people believe in it, the economy will reach a self-sustaining speed of expansion. one of the interesting facts about this slow recovery is you

hear about the cash corporations are sitting on. companies have been able to amass great piles of cash, but they are not spending them because of the uncertain economic outlook. if we can create hope for better growth, those businesses will start spending again. host: pedro da costa, reuters, we have been talking about the unemployment numbers that came out yesterday. thank you for talking with us this morning. coming up next, we will take a look at the dodd-frank law and how it affects credit cards with joan goldwasser of kiplinger's. we will be right back. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> we pulled in for refueling. >> the events surrounding al qaeda's 2000 attack that left 17 dead and 37 injured. >> i was doing paperwork. at 11:18, there was a thunderous explosion. you could feel the destroyer of thrust up and to the right. we seemed to hang for a second in the air. we came back down in the water. lights went out. everything on my desk lifted up and slammed down. i grabbed the underside of my

desk to brace until the ship stopped moving. >> more on sunday at 8:00. >> one of my favorite tricks to talk about is given to cows, pigs, and turkeys. this particular drug, when an animal is killed in the meat is sold to safely, the drug is in there. >> she looks behind the scenes of the food and drug industry and finds government complicity in undermining public health. sunday night at 9:00.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: joan goldwasser of kiplinger's personal finance magazine, thank you for being here. talking about credit cards and that people face reduced debt people face, talk about how things have changed with the dodd-frank law and other legislation. how have the impact of things? guest: the card act instituted reforms that were helpful to consumers. it said you have to give 45 days' notice if the rate is going to be raised and would have the opportunity to pay off the balance at the old rate. it said you were going to beat your bill 21 days in the advance. it did a number of things like that. those have been in effect for almost two years.

a year later, dodd-frank was passed, an enormous piece of legislation. one thing it did was create the consumer financial protection bureau, the first institution designed to protect every facet of a consumer's financial life including credit cards. it has been working very assiduously for the last year. host: what does the durbin amendment do? guest: it is related to interchange fees, the fees in merchant pays every time you use the piece of plastic. it cuts those fees in half. the idea was prices would be lower. i am not sure people are paying less for an item, but the retailers have benefited. many gas stations and oil is getting a discount for cash. it is possible that may become

more common, but it has not yet. host: other things in the legislation, debit cards white bees and a prohibition on network exclusivity. guest: that means you cannot say the retailer will only accept a certain network when you use your card. they have to have at least two. the idea is there is more competition and fees should be lower. host: swipe fees are something everyone deals with. guest: the banks prefer you sign for your card because it is more profitable for them. merchants prefer you use a pin number. there have been instances where you have to pay using one or the

other depending on who would benefit. these fees have pretty much disappeared. host: if you want to talk about federal legislation and how it impacts you, here are the numbers to call. joan goldwasser, what is the least known thing about how federal legislation has impacted people's personal credit cards? what do you find when you talk to people? guest: the financial protection bureau has away where if you are unhappy with your bank, there's a toll-free number. you may have explained to them what happened was not right. now you can go to the consumer

financial protection bureau, state your complete in writing. they will forward it to the appropriate agency. the mechanism whereby these complaints are getting resolved in a more systematic manner, also the have opened up a database. you can look before you get a credit card to see which issuer may have received more complaints. you may decide you do not want to get a credit card from the company. host: how much ownership or understanding do americans have over their credit cards? how in touch are we? guest: i think more than we used to be. during the recession, people used credit cards as a lifeline. it is a way to pay bills or grow to the grocery store when they do not have cash -- or go to the grocery store when they do not have cash coming in like they

used to. they are aware of debt. during bad times, it is harder to pay it off. one of the provisions says your monthly statement house to show the house to show how much you will be paying if you only pay the minimum amount and how much you will pay the fee paid off within three years. the statement every month gives you a better indication of where you are. if you are only able to pay the minimum amount, you will let least know how much is costing you, which might not have realized before. host: john joins us on the democrats' line from new hampshire. caller: my question is more broad and not into the credit card thing. i am thankful for dodd-frank and the additional regulations.

i think it is overdue. since the banks were deemed to be partially responsible for $1 trillion on personal wealth recently being destroyed from their loan shark type activities, i was wondering -- no one is being prosecuted. why are they not financially responsible for paying back? guest: and guess the question is how you determine how much money is owed. mortgages are larger than people's houses are worth. i do not know how you can on an individual basis say this individual homeowners should receive x amount of money. it is hard to figure out the amounts of money it would go to

individuals and how that would be done. host: phil, republican caller, milwaukee. caller: we are having a lot of conversations about getting budgets in line. wisconsin has shown the nation the way on how to get control of the budget. it was a hard price. it is a difficult thing to deal with, but the largest part of state and government budgets are pension and health care costs. both are unsustainable and the direct result of collective bargaining for public employees. host: we're talking with joan goldwasser about credit cards and personal spending. do you have any comments about that? caller: my comment was on the state budget. host: let's go on to the democratic caller from maryland.

caller: regarding the overdraft fees for something like $10. my second question is for the consumer protection board. does that committee oversee collection agencies? that is a huge problem of concern related to the credit- card industry. guest: as far as the overdraft fees for small purchases, it depends on what your bank policy has become. in many cases, banks have said they will not charge a fee if the purchase is less than $5 or $10. if they do, the fees at the biggest banks are about $35. you could be charged that if you have opted in.

you do have the opportunity now to say no, you do not want overdraft protection for your atm fee -- or your atm fee or when you make purchases. in that case, the purchase may be declined. the new law does not cover checks were recurring automatic payment. if you have your mortgage automatically deducted, even if you opt out of the overdraft protection, you still could be charged a fee for that. the consumer financial protection bureau covers almost every agency. it covers mortgages, student lenders, every kind of financial firm. host: does dodd-frank affect consumers more, banks more, or

retailers accepting transactions of credit cards and deal with credit-card companies on the back end? guest: it does not really affect retailers, but it affects consumers in that it is looking out for their interest. it is studying issues from credit cards to mortgage lending to collection agencies, almost every facet of the community involved with your finances. it certainly affects the banks because they are being regulated by them. the cpfb can write regulations on its own. host: the next caller is from rockport. caller: the dodd-frank and in the has not done anything to protect consumers.

-- the dodd-frank amendment has not done anything to protect consumers. the young lady was talking about food with credit cards. if the economy is in such turmoil and you have to use a credit card to pay for food, that is not a good economy. as a real-estate broker for 20 years, i know in new york our economy is in the tank. the dodd-frank amendment has not helped us of balkh. -- helped us at all. guest: that is true. legislation cannot change the economy. it can help us in terms of the with our lives are impacted by taking care of excesses, regulating the institutions that were we are -- that we are involved with on a daily basis.

host: 10 you explain the role of the consumer financial protection bureau in simple terms? guest: it goes out and takes an issue. it will be studying mortgage lending. it will look at the way when you buy a house, what kind of document to get. it will simplify the piece of paper you get when you are settling on your house so you understand the fees you are being charged. it does things like that. it has created this form for people to complain about their banks review this forum poor people to complain about their banks. it really is acting in your interest and in every aspect of

your financial life. host: the next caller joins us from virginia on the independents' line. caller: thank you for taking my call. when duke -- do credit card companies supposed to charge a late payment fees? guest: the late fees. host: my wife sent -- caller: my wife's cent in three days late and was charged $5. guest: if you are late, it can be one day late, you could be charged a late fee. if you are a good consumer, you can call them up and in many cases, they will waive the fee

the first time. if they do not, you are going to be stuck paying the fee. host: how much control do consumers have over making phone calls and advocating on their behalf when they find charges on their bill? if they got a charge because they were late, how much control do they have? guest: there is always the consumer protection number on the credit card statement itself. you can say i am a good customer and pay faithfully. i was out of time and did not get my mail on time. please wave the speed. oftentimes if you are a good customer, they will waive the fee. it is always worth asking. host: carol is in virginia. caller: on the consequences of

the legislation, with all regulations there are unintended consequences nobody wants to talk about. the ones i have experienced and we are anticipating is the bank fees increasing for bounced checks have gone up. there are even talks about credit card fees. i remember when my mother used to have credit cards and store cards. they used to charge a monthly fee of maybe $10 a month. that one away. that is coming back. -- that went away. that is coming back. checking accounts are going to start having fees. the banks are going to get their money. it is unfortunate.

i hope with the current economy , the voters have learned what is really the problem. the problem of the economy collapsing started in d.c. with government and continues to ruin the economy. host: let's go to some of the unintended consequences. guest: it is true banks have lost a lot of revenue. the overdraw protection legislation cuts into their revenue ala. the interchange fee issue as well. she is right. the banks are profit-making institutions. they're looking for ways to increase their bottom line and make things better for themselves. some trees have increased. it is harder to find a free checking account, but there are

a lot out there. if you go to a community bank, credit union, or if you have several accounts with a larger balance you can often get free checking accounts, and if you are willing to bank online. host: joan goldwasser is with kiplinger's personal finance magazine. there is a house hearing called the impact of dodd-frank on customers, credit, and job creators. it is on tuesday, july 10. here is a story about republican lawmakers. the committee will hold hearings on the dodd-frank act with the goal of demonstrating negative impact on individuals and businesses. how much of an effort is being made on capitol hill to roll back dodd-frank?

guest: republicans have never liked it. there was a lot of controversy over the legislation in the first place. republicans would like to roll it back. democrats will fight that. in this divided congress, i do not think it will happen. host: the credit-card provisions in particular in dodd-frank controversial -- are controversy on capitol hill. guest: there are not that many in dodd-frank. those went into affect the year before. there is overdraft protection and interchange fees that are controversial, but you have retailers working hard to retain those because that was an enormous boon for them. i am not sure whether they can

keep them in, but they will try as hard as they can to retain that. host: credit card companies raise their rates to the hilt. the rates stay there even on perfect payers. guest: interest rates have gone up. however, if you mean people that pay on time, if you keep a balance, you are affected by the interest rate. if you pay off your balance each month, the fees and high interest rates do not affect you much. there are a lot of 0% balance transfer offers out right now. if you do have a balance and want to take advantage of four of these, it is a. time to do it. those offers last for 12 or 15

months. you can pay down the balance is substantially without paying interest if you transfer to one of them. host: adam is on the independent line. caller: the fellow from new york spoke about people using credit cards for food. i think it is a necessity for the long-term health of people. in 2010, people were using their houses as credit cards for all sorts of things. there is a difference there. from what i understand, the consumer protection board is not getting funded. i do not know if that will go forward. republicans are not wanting the dodd-frank act. one of the ways to do that is to not fund it. guest: i am not sure about its actual funding.

it is in existence now. it is fully staffed and working very hard. i do not know what the funding is. obviously that will be a source of contention because it is not a popular institution among republicans. you are right. that is one way of making it less effective. host: benny is in nevada on the democrats' line. caller: we were waiting on the mortgage in 2006. she said any day. finally in 2009 after the consumer protection agency is put in, we were forced into a mortgage. we used our landlord as a reference. the landlord got involved.

they were going to throw us out of the apartment. our credit was great. everything was great. the same day we were ready to go to a closing, the landlord flipped out on us, which made us sign the papers even though we did not want to sign them because we saw problems. be careful. do not let your landlord know you are about to close. they use that. i wonder if you had heard anything like that. thank you. i will take my answer offline. guest: i do not know of any instance like that, but i do not follow a house in much. i am sure there are horror stories ever wear -- everywhere. host: this is a story joan goldwasser wrote for kiplinger's. give us some tips about things consumers do not know about

taking advantage of credit cards. guest: many times your credit card will double the warranty on something you have purchased. it also might give you the option of having something repaired if it is new and brakes. the credit card company will have a service where it can be repaired or replaced. sometimes you can get travel insurance through your credit card company. sometimes even concierge service so you can get tickets to sold-out event early. renting an automobile, you can waive the fees they ask you to sign for because your credit card recover them. host: mike, republican caller, virginia. caller: i would like to make a

statement. i am not for dodd-frank. i would like to make a statement about abuses some do. i was in a local store early in the morning. everyone was going to work. a-i was in front of us on his cell phone. -- a guy was in front of us on his cell phone. he was using a credit card machine. all he was buying was two packs of cigarettes. at the end of the month, does he realize he is going to pay another charge for the two packs of cigarettes and a cigar? we complain about credit cards, but he must be responsible about the amount he buys. host: are you saying he was paying interest rates because he put it on his credit card? let's get clarification from joan goldwasser about when you

are charged fees. guest: it may have been a debit card. there are more people using debit cards now than credit cards. people do go into starbucks or and spend a few dollars and use the debit cards. the money is coming directly out of your checking account. you are not incurring fees. if you have opted out of the overdraft protection in your account is below the amount you are spending, it will be declined. you may be embarrassed but you will not be charged $35. host: when you buy something with a credit card, where are your fees? guest: it is just the interest if you do not pay off your balance. there is not going to be a fee just to use the credit card. host: let's go to portsmouth, ark., independent caller.

caller: my name is joel. i have two comments. one is in regards to your number system on the telephone numbers. you need to leave them up longer on the screen. they are not up there very often. when they are, they are not up there long. it is hard to catch. host: thank you for your feedback. what is your question for joan goldwasser? guest: you may be preapproved for $15 on a credit card -- caller: you may be preapproved for $15 -- $1,500 on a credit card. then they say you are only approved for $1,000. then they only give the credit for $925. they charge you $75 fee for

something you have not used yet. i do not understand that. guest: when you get one of those preapproved letters the fine print says subject to your credit history. you may be pre-approved for a car, but when you sign that form and fill out the application and the credit card company reviews it and looks at your credit history and your credit score they might determine you're not quite as credit worthy as you would hope. so they will give you a lower credit limit and might charge you a high e interest rate. the fee for any annual fee on the credit card is stated quite clearly. there is no fee that will not be told to you in advance. either it has no annual fee or a $19 annual fee or a $75 annual

fee. but that shouldn't be a surprise. host: do you have a sense of how many americans pay off their credit card bill in full every month? versus carry over balance which then gets charged interest? guest: it's about 30, 35% that actually pay off their entire balance every month. host: and sasha tweets in and talks about the person sitting behind the person buying cigarettes with a credit card responds to a tweet -- are you there? caller: yeah, i'm here. thank you for opportunity. and i want to make two quick comments, or one question and a comment. the first one is this -- why is it that when we pay our

mortgage, the money goes predominantly towards interest, and not, let's say 50/50 towards principal? i think that would be the best economic stimulus where we are able to pay our loans ahead of time because it's not being applied on the front end. and secondly, does this process where you can link your checking account to your savings account, right? so if you have money in your savings account, when ever you outspend your checking account, they automatically take it out of your savings count. but then the bank wants to charge you for your own money because the money in the savings account is yours. if they have to leverage that money, then they try to bring in all kind of fees. ha can we do or what kind of movement can we do to stop these hidden charges? charges that to me are just pure

greed. guest: well, it is absolutely true if you have a linked account one way of avoiding overdraft fees. you have your checking account linked to a savings account or money market account, you will have a fee. around $12. i don't know how you'll get the banks to stop doing that. they say is the cost of doing business, and they are in the business to make money. you can try like occupy wall street and see if it works. host: how much control do consumers have over their credit card information? we've been reeding about -- we've been reading about breaches in security. what do you do with the consumer? how much access do you have to who took your number? what happens to your data?

guest: unfortunately you don't have a lot of control over that. you will get a statement from your credit card company, every month, well not every month, but at least once a year saying this is information we share. you can opt out of parts of it but they're doing to share it with their partners. it is available to the institution with which you do business. and seems as if the systems, although they are supposed to be fool-proof and fail-safe against theft and hackers, they do fail sometimes. host: becky picked up on something you said. are we seeing the shrinkage that we thought we might. if we take away the ability to charge our fees in one place we'll have to charge somewhere else. guest: the big banks have made it tough to get a free checking account. they raised the minimal balance they require.

but even with the big banks, if you bundle all of your financial life at the bank, you can qualify for a free checking account. the community banks really offer free checking accounts in as large a number as they ever did. if you just do a little bit of research, it's not that difficult to find. host: bob is our next caller, a republican from connecticut. go ahead, bob. caller: hi, thanks for taking me. it seems to me the talk about fees is minor compared to the very high interest rates on unpaid balances, like in the low 20%. could that be handled federally? you said i think legislation cannot help the economy. but putting a cap on the interest rates, more like 10%, something reasonable is much more important than the fees that the banks are charging. guest: that's covered usually

state by state. and there are some states that have laws that are where the rates are much lower than other states. but in general, no. rates can be pretty high. and penalty rate cans certainly be in the 20% range. host: let's hear from arthur, independent caller from edgewood, new jersey. caller: yes, good morning. this is about debt and credit cards that the banks give you. i'm wondering why these credit score companies, if you're very responsible if your money and you don't use a credit card or have a credit card because of the problems you could run into with debt, if you use your debt card and your credit card very responsible, because you don't want to spend money you don't have. when you go from credit they tell you, you don't have bad credit, but you don't have a history of credit because they

don't evaluate debt cards as a credit type of score. host: does that happen to you arthur? caller: oh yes, all the time. for two years i had a payment on a lincoln i bought for my business. at the time my credit wasn't very good. my payment was $425 a month. in two years i didn't miss one payment at all or was never late. and then a couple of years later, i went to get credit because i wanted to purchase another vehicle and because i didn't do anything within those other couple of years, because i didn't use a credit card at all, i just was using any debt card and spending money that i already had in the bank. and i couldn't get credit because i didn't have a credit

history. host: arthur brings up a point, only using a debt card to make transactions you can be penalized because you don't build a credit history. guest: that's true, it's a problem. you have what's called a thin file. debt cards do not get reported to the credit bureau. so if you only use your debt card, you almost don't exist unless you have a mortgage, or a student loan or a car loan. if you have some other kind of debt getting reported you will build up your credit history that way. but if you don't, it's a problem. it's a problem also for people who rent. although the credit bureaus are trying to figure out to get landlords to report to the credit bureaus so you do have a little bit more of a credit history. host: do you write about ways that people can build credit if you're denied a credit card

because they say you don't have enough. are there ways you can build it up by taking out car loans and the like? guest: obviously i recommend not taking out a loan unless you really need it. if you have a car loan, and car loans are one of the things that are much easier to get right now because car companies are lending money much more generously than other kinds of institutions. but, that will go on your credit report. and if you can't get a credit card in any other way there are secured credit cards. with a secured card what you do is deposit a certain amount of money with the bank. and that becomes your line of credit. and you can charge against that. it will become your credit limit. and at the end of the year you will qualify for a regular credit card. host: tony shares his opinion on twitter saying --

tina is a republican caller in virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. host: welcome to "washington journal." go ahead. caller: yes, i have a comment. this is directly in regards to the bank charges. i just want to let him know that if he opens up an account at a federal credit union he probably will not have those charges. host: credit union? talk more about those. guest: credit unions are very consumer friendly. right now almost anyone can find a credit union that they can belong to. if there isn't one in your community, which there probably is, there's some credit unions that you can join just by joining an organization. you might have to pay anywhere from five to twenty dollars but you will then qualify. so there is a credit union in this country that anyone can become a member of. host: our caller a few moments

ago, arthur, talked about the hard time getting a credit card. but dennis tweets in i get at least one credit card offer per day. how can i stop the extreme volume of offers? guest: right, if you have good credit you are somebody that the banks would like to lure away from another institution and get you to become credit card holder of theirs. and so they are sending out solicitations. you can possibly get rid of it by putting yourself on one of the anti--spam list. but if you already do business with that institution, you'll probably be getting some mail. host: elizabeth, democrats line, good morning. caller: good morning. i'm calling and i am a first time caller, and i'm nervous. host: that's ok, welcome. caller: ok, thank you. i love c-span. i'm calling because i discovered a scam that i was involved in,

without my knowledge. and i would like to just explain how i handled it and what i learned from it the point was that i was in a kind of busy period of my life, and could not and was not watching my credit bill as closely as i could. and when i finally settle down and could do that, i realized that i was getting a charge twice a month of $12 each from two different companies. and it had gone on for quite some time. and i also discovered there was a number after this charge, and that if i called it, you know, i would find out who it was. but i first went on the web and tried to find something about this. and someone on the web had had a similar experience. and it was a woman, and she said that if you call them directly

and challenge this, they will immediately remove the fee, return your money, et cetera, et cetera. so i did this. i started that way. and i got an immediate response, the minute i said this, they oh, no, no, no. and what's your name and address and whatever. and they'll send you a kind of a form that you have to sign and part of that was that you would never kind of sue them for what they did. so i did that, and i did get the money back. but i decided to pursue it furt. and research the company that sent the forms. it turned out it was one company, in this case it was located in stanford, connecticut. it had about 35 different names of companies like this that was on my credit card. i only had two of them.

and i found further that this is a firm that was dealing with banks that was trying to help them to find ways to increase their income. and one of the things that they did was they would, a certain firm, i know the one that i got caught in, when you call them, if it said would you like a discount, the next time you buy from this product. and you said yes, all of your information was passed onto that campaign. host: let me ask you, what were they charging you for? what was the service they were claiming? caller: oh, the service was in one case it was an identity protection. and in another case, i cannot exactly remember how they phrased it, but they said that -- i looked that up. and you know when you get credit

card protection, supposedly -- host: it gets lost or stolen. we're out of time, but thanks for sharing your story. guest: you have to be very careful. often if you answer an add for a free credit score or a free credit report. if you don't go to annual credit report.com where your credit report is always free, because it's sponsored by the federal trade commission. but if you go to one of the others, maybe freecreditreport.com, you will get a free credit report but you may have accidentally signed up for credit monitoring or i.d. protection and then you will find that you are suddenly being charged ten dollars a month, twelve dollars a month, something like that. so you should always be very careful, when you get something

that's free that it doesn't have some strings attached. and nobody should ever have to -- if your credit card is stolen or lost, you are protected by law, you only have to pay the first $50. in most cases you won't have to pay that. veesa and master card have -- visa and master card have rules. host: senior reporter at kiplinger's magazine. up next we'll talk with stephane vans, author of "the influence game" and we'll talk about lobbying.

>> it's four hours on, four hours off. >> this weekend on american history tv the life of an enlisted man abored the u.s.s. constitution during the war of 1812. >> the sailor lived in fear of being whipped by a cat-o-nine tails.

a phrase we still use today, don't let the cat out of the bag. you don't want to see it coming out of the bag for a flogging. >> that's sunday. also this weekend, more from the contenders. our series on key political figures who ran for president and lost, but changed political history. sunday, former new york governor al smith. >> "washington journal" continues. host: stephane vans is the author of "the influence game." guest: we use a lot of tactics, sometimes not so effective. so what i did with this was to take a look at all of those different tactics, review them

and try to apply them. not just in d.c. but the real world, so know what your talking . host: you write in your book, in washington, d.c. lobbyists sell ideal. guest: in d.c. you're not selling a wigget, you're selling the idea of eliminating poverty or the idea of protecting public broadcasting services. so those kind of things are what lobbyists are trying to sell which are is little different from widgets. host: what's the public perception of lobbying? guest: yeah, not good.

i think people think the people in washington, d.c. as those who manipulate and bribe. but the tactics i've outlined is about non-manipulation, non-bribery, not lying. sometimes i joke it's a short book but actually there are tactics you can use and still sleep at night. host: how did lobbying get such a bad rap as you see it? and what can be changed? guest: i think it did because sometimes people do not great things. like any industry, sometimes people don't like the corporate world because you know sometimes someone will do something bad and it gets in the media. so when you do that, you do come at it from a different

perspective. i also teal people that special interest, everyone has a special interest. if you are a human being who's a member of triple a you have a special interest. if you like the sierra club, if you're a member of the local humane society, you have a special interest. and if they weren't special they would be common interest. so, i think that's often why we get a bad wrap. host: how much did the jack abramoff scandal effect lobbyists guest: oh, a lot. he did very bad and illegal things. and he went to jail for it. to me, those aren't effective lobbying tactics. what i found in writing a book, which was really interesting was that in the end he didn't actually achieve a whole lot. he did a lot of terrible things,

but he was not able to actually achieve many of the things that he set out to do. host: stephane vance's new book is about lobbying in d.c. gary is our first caller, an independent in huntington beach, california. good morning gary. caller: yeah, good morning. stephane good morning. that's great that you've written this book and talked about what's going on. i'm coming from this view point there's certain powers that the problem with lobbying isn't lobbying per say, it's the size of the whole industry. that's based on the overreach of the government. the federal government, there's plenty of government to go around for state government, but the federal government is too big. and the problem with that is that it leads to stuff like abramoff. like you said he didn't get what he wanted, but still a corrupting influence. so the question is the people on the other side of the abramoff,

what did they get? it's just way too out of control. and we really need to roll back. it's not doing to put you out of business because there will still be lobbying going on at the state level, but a lot more structured for the individual regions of the united states. i'm in the l.a. orange county area. it's a lot different, believe me. i've been to new york, i'velied in new york, i've lived in the d.c. area. it's way different each area. and it should be more local, is my point. host: let's get a response from stephanie vance. guest: well, first of all i went to school in orange county so i'm glad you called in because i know it's quite early out there. you know, i hear what you're saying and there's actually, i was surprised to learn when i was doing the research on this book, there's about over 500,000 local, state and federal elected

officials. so, there are certainly a lot of people to lobby out there. and i think that you know, i think what happens with the size of the federal government is that it's not just a lobbyist goes in and says i'm a special interest, i would like this. it's that there's people behind it. and you see that the federal depovement actually starts to get involved because there are things that are national and focused. for example, the highway system. you need a cross state network of roads. and so, when you start seeing that, you get citizens behind it, they want these kind of roads, elected officials get involved. to me that's why the federal government has grown. less about d.c. people coming up with ideas and more about what citizens across the country want. so, you know, i think at the state and local level sometimes it's difficult because you can't -- so i would argue there is still a role for national and

federal government. host: in response to the scandal surrounding jack abramoff, the open government act. here's a story back from 2008. how has it changed the work people do? depoip i think it has changed the work people do. i at this point don't have any specific lobbying clients. i do a lot of work in grass roots advocacy and helping citizens be engaged in the process. i would tell you that when i was lobbying and filing those reports they scared the heck out of me. because if i didn't get those reports filed they would call and say you need to file this and didn't file this correctly. so i did think it really changed what lobbyists are doing and how they're approaching it and how they're tracking it.

i also think that being a lobbyist shouldn't be an embarrassing profession. so i think that the ability to report what you're doing, and having that out there about what your clients are working on is not necessarily a bad thing. i think most actually think it. host: open government act of 2007 requires more disclosure when it comes to earmarks -- were the changes more concrete or were they more an atmosphere change? guest: i think it's a little bit of both. there was definitely this piece

of paper needs to be filed this way at this time. so very concrete. other examples of more concrete changes where some people are familiar with the toothpick rule, which is because members of congress can't accept meals from lobbyists if they go to a reception on capitol hill, the food is not required, but the interpretation of the law is that food has to be on a toothpick because otherwise it's seen as a meal, and no one can sit down because then it's seen as a meal. and you can see these interpretations get a little crazy. but i also think more of an ethos change. i would say a real trend in citizen-based advocacy, grassroots, that legislative offices are really focusing on that. in the influence game, i tell a story of a staff person from the other side of the aisle who told me that his boss doesn't co-sponsor bills unless they ask

for it. that to me is really talking to the culture of lobbying in washington, d.c. host: ron is our next caller in bridgewater, massachusetts, good morning. caller: good morning everybody. i just have a comment about the lobbyists, special interest money. we are a three-party government. and we vote on two parties. the third party is the special interest which we don't vote on. the money part of it, which is the big factor. and can i just say if we could ever have a real third party, that we vote on, then special interest would be a much smaller factor in our government than influencing. that's it. thank you. guest: well, you know, i think that's an interesting point. people are skeptical about money in the political process. this is not shocking news, i know. i tend to think of it as using

that to elect people that agree with their views, not necessarily that someone gets into office and then you give them money and they start voting with you. you know when i look at who some of the campaign contribute ors are for many elected officials they tend to be interests from the district, from the state or the elected official already had some sort of afinity for. they're not always the special interest that we think of in terms of big corporate donors or large trade corporations. groups like the humane society have an unaffiliated group called the humane pack and they -- i tell the story about them. they may not raise a lot of money but they do their best to get candidates into office who understand their particular perspective. i tend to look at it from the opposite way, not necessarily buying a vote when you get into office, but more than getting one in who may understand your

views more. host: we're talking about how lobbying works in washington. stephanie vance is a consultant. she has over 20 years of experience in congressional affairs. and worked in a prom napt d.c. law firm. among her clients, included national public radio. she's worked in various congressional offices holding jobs like legislative director and staff director. allen is on the line. independent caller from houston, texas. hi. caller: good morning, my question has to do with foreign lobbyists for organizations that lobby on behalf of foreign governments. it's my understanding that congress is elected by the american people to represent us,

to represent the american people, the american voters. so why do we allow foreign governments to lobby the congress directly? why do we have organizations that lobby on behalf of foreign nations? >> the resources of the nation, even a small nation, the americans voter or taxpayer has no chance against such large scale lobbying.

certainly what my member of congress involved in foreign relations issues, trade issues, et cetera, so i might have to disagree a little bit about the role that foreign governments can play. i think many members of congress regular that they are representing a special interest that is not directly in their legislative direct.

>> the official again, it's often biased information based on the special interest they're representing. but members of congress and their staff have a really good ain't to take that information.

guest: there's a number of things i would want to talk about. first of all, the role of staff. staff, again legislators if you just had a member of congress that needed to know everything on the planet that would be difficult so the staff takes individual issues and they are the ones who are helping to sort through what lobbyists are saying and really applying those parcels of information that are important. it's a very difficult job as you might imagine and one of the things i tell lobbyists is please don't walk in the door and say i have to meet with

just a staff person? that's terrible. i don't want to meet with just you. and -- host: they want to meet with the actual senator. guest: exactly. and i say well this is going to be a great meeting. and those who knew and delve into the issue. the number of staff delegated hasn't changed since 1974 and the issues of the world and policy environment has very much changed. so that's something i would have to say about staff. also in terms of how the bills are written. there are actually offices in capitol hill called live council and when a member of congress has an idea -- and many aren't lawyers.

when they have an idea, they or their staff go to live council. -- legislative council. so a lobbyist i've even had citizens be engaged in that process. the bill is drafted by legislative council and it is introduced by member of congress through what the legislative council and parliamentarian. so i think that there's misconception about how the bills are eentrd. i don't want to say that lobbyists aren't engaged. but sits since are engaged as well helping develop the ideas and since not everyone is a lawyer, it can be hard to draw up things without that background. >> does someone have to be an official lobbyist? can i just stapped in the lobby advocating a cause?

>> well, and the people, it's that second part that i focus in on is the citizen advocacy, the grassroots advocacy. everyone has a right to communicate with their elected official. i hope everyone does. i hope everyone feels encouraged. i help people understand the best tactics as well as how to apply those business and sales and getting it up. and not just washington, d.c. d.c. tactics. our firm helps schedule lobby days for groups that are coming in. if the organization has 400 people coming to town, we'll schedule other meetings with elected officials. we can schedule 100% of those meet fgs we can demonstrate that. and i think a lot of people don't believe that. they don't believe that they can have a voice advocating and if you're a citizen, you're not

spending a million dollars obit, you have every single right to advocate and i hope people will feel encouraged to do so. host: our next caller from california on you are independent line. caller: good morning. is there a website out there that people can access on a daily basis that shows you who is supporting a specific bill that's being proposed? we're all concerned about bribery in washington. there is enough money indirectly in terms of donations. and you may end up getting the bill that you want and the new program is created and that program costs money and taxes have to be generated to pay for it. so is there a website that you

can go to for the bill? guest: well, there are a few great web sites that i would definitely remembered and i think you raise a good point. citizens need to keep track of this and one great resource is gove track u.s. so that gov, track, sunshine. there urks you can actually -- you can find out who is supporting those bills. also at congress.gov. you can see who is cosponsoring them. that's a good thing to know. and if you're interested in that issue of learning the political process i would say open secrets.org is a wonderful

website to see who has contributed to an elected officials campaign. maybe because i've been in d.c. so long identify become indocket nated but i do feel money doesn't have the direct day to day role in the process that people think it has. any lobbyist who will walk into an elected official's office and say i'm dropping off a check at the campaign office, they'll get turned out of the office. there is a firewall between campaign funding and policy issues. and questions about budgeted questions, they cost a lot of money, that's why taxes get raised, there are organizations in washington, d.c. that keep track of how much each bill will cost. members of congress pay very close attention to those numbers and will often not

cosponsor things if their number about how much money they're proposing to spend increases dramatically. so those are the web sites. i encourage every one, every party, if i agree with them or not, to keep track of what's going on. because i think it can really help you figure out what your goal is in making a difference. host: here's one of those web sites. can they set up fund raisors? you talked about how that works. but what are the boundaries and how can lobbyists? >> lobbyists can certainly contribute financially through pacs, through individualsly. you know, full disclosure i contribute to some members of congress who i like and even

though i personally am not lobbying them on anything. so citizens can contribute. i feel like if people really want a certain individual in office and they do need money to run a campaign unfortunately that's how it works. so helping them get into office through a small financial contribution because they're folks who may agree with your views is just one way to make a difference in the process. they can contribute to the pacs, they can contribute through what are called super pacs. when i say make direct contributions, that's from their personal funds. it needs to come through me, not as a lobbyist.

host: let's see who our next call is. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm from baltimore. host: go ahead. caller: just a quick comment here. basically, i think you're touching on a subject that's been on my mind a long time. my comment is this. more towards c-span but when we have lobbyists and politicians coming over the air waves as frequently as we are seeing, i'm wondering if there is some way that c-span might be able to talk to its producers and simply bring out this point. when you have a politician that is on the air waves is there any possible way to help with the transparency issue that we could put the caller that would go underneath that individual showing the name of the lobbyist, corporations, and the

alof money that's actually going into their super pac for example to help keep in focus as to what is at the core of the exchange is between the legislation and corporations are looking for to help them get to where they are and what the main focus of the politician is to achieve that goal. and i think that caller might be something that c-span might want to take into conversation if she cares, i'm curious what c-span has to say about that. guest: some of the web sites i've mentioned, open secrets, those will give you that information. and the sunlight foundation has some great information along those lines. i do want to address one issue. i recognize i'm never going to erase people's skepticism about washington, d.c. and that's not

necessarily one of my goals. and one of my goals is really to help people understand that process, not just in d.c. but in every influence and environment a because we can say people understand influence and ideas and i think many of these tactic that is they use are not only effective but ethical. i would also say i want people to try to access the legislator's office as a citizen and as a constituent. because i think you will be shocked at how much easier it is to get into an office as a citizen. and there was a study done by the congressional management foundation and asks congressional staff if your boss heent made a decision on the issue what is most likely to influence him or her. the number one item was in person visits from a constituent, a visit from a

lobbyist is number five. and seeing this trend that even lobbyists can't get into an office unless they can demonstrate that constituency connection. host: say a grew in california has an issue in california f a group flies into washington. whether or not the kind of disclosure is required? is the person walking into the door of a congressman seen as just a citizen? or their knowledge that they've had help to get to washington? guest: most groups don't pay for their citizens advocates to come to d.c. the groups we work with most of them the citizen actually has to pay. and because they care so much about an issue that they want to come to d.c. and lobby on it. they are seen as citizens, they are seen as advocates and the red carpet is rolled out for them because they are the people that that legislator represents. the other point i would make is people don't have to come all

the way to washington, d.c. to influence legislators. they have district offices, they have district staff. if you look in the phone book you will find -- or on some of those sites i mentioned you will find the district office of your legislator and you can visit there. host: south carolina, republican line. caller: good morning. first, i have about three separate examples that i think the lady making can comment on and are sort of on topic here. first of all, i would like for her to tell me, well, everybody's heard of solinddra and the example there was that the bush administration before they went out recommended that this loan not be made and then the new administration

backtracked and it seems there was some improprietary with this -- i can't think of the guys name. and that seemed like that was a little bit of lobbying that was really went awry. ok. the other examples that bothers me. you make it -- one of the green energy big loans was twice as big as the solindra but it's not gone under but it was made through congressman's son, george miller iii who represents a district in california. his son george miller iv who as far as i can tell was just sort of like, for lack of a better terminology, was a nobody out there in california that got together with some lawyers and stuff up around northern california and they put in and they did successfully obtain a

$1.3 billion loan for sun power. now, i checked this out on the internet and they were supposedly going to build this plant out of this farm house up there. i saw pictures of it. it looked like an old airport hangar. they got the money and then they kind of threw that to the wind. and now as far as i can tell, they moved the money to mexico to build the plant to build the solar panels. and my point is this. and then they just had what i saw a while ago on the news -- host: what's your point? caller: to make the sub power and i will leave it there. host: what's the criminal you're bringing up? guest: -- concern that you're bringing up? caller: talking so much about money being moved over seas. one other one is i want to know

who designated the $2 billion to be sent to brazil for drilling in the ocean for them after the oil spill also? host: william's bringing up energy issues and money being spent on them. guest: and i think that first of all i would say that i don't know all the specific details of each of those transactions. so i would -- i would have to defer one of the rules i talk about in the influence game is always say i don't know but i'll get back to you if you don't know. so i don't know. but i will say in sort of the broader context of the concerns about how many of these decisions are made. first of all the obama administration has a pretty strict rule about lobbyists talking to officials. which is a strict rule because some officials may need the information but for a special interest that may have an

environmental concern to raise or something along those lines. and i would also say frankly there's always bad examples you know we see that in every industry and every environment. and i think people are obviously concerned about that in d.c. i would say given these volume of things that happened in d.c. there are 10,000 bills that are introduced in a congressional congress. the bad examples tend to be much more limplt than we might -- limited than we might think they are. it is tough for administrations when they are leaving office. there was an example of the bush administration had wanted to do something on encouraging fluorescent light bulb use and there was a bit of a brouhahah in congress when some folks wanted to stop that. so you see that it goes both ways. you might when you're coming out of an administration there's thing that is you try to do when you're in office that you can't do affs you've

left. host: here's from the post in may. it talks about lobbyists who are managing to get to the front door of the white house. is it easier to propose than it is to enact in reality? guest: i think it is as with most things. and i do think that the bobe administration has tried to limit that to a great extent. because of the concerns that people have raised about lobbying in the political process. so it has definitely been reduced whether you can eliminate it entirely. there's certainly first amendment concerns about that. host: california, democrat's line. welcome. caller: i want to talk about lobbying. host: you're in the right place. caller: i want to talk about grover nor quist.

how can they be so stupid to vote for -- guest: do you see him as a lobbyist? host: yes. guest: i have to say i'm not sure if he is registered as a lobbyist. i'm not a lawyer and i don't play one here on tv. i should clarify that. but you know, people, he is certainly an electrifying figure. people feel very strongly one way or the other about him. you know. and to me that's in many ways the beauty of the legislative and policy process. you will have people who feel that he does -- there should be ab slule no new taxes and then you'll find people who on the other side believe there are important investment that is need to be made in infrastructure and social services et cetera. those two groups are allowed to argue with each other and if we

disagree with republicans who are signing that pledge, as citizens we have a right and opportunity to let them know how we feel, tell them that we feel that it is not appropriate and do our -- let our voting do the talking for us in november. host: wikipedia defines him as an american lobbyist, conservative activist and founder and president of americans for tax reform. guest: that answers our questions. host: good morning. caller: if you look at it from the angle it seems to me like who is influencing who. it seems like the lobbyists one dimension of it could be that it's proportional to regulation and the taxation that congress puts on the country, on industry. so is it also congress?

in the money cycle, the election cycle? guest: i think that's a great point. in the influence game i talk about influencing is a two-way street. and i feel very much in the process you will find that the best influence situation is the time when you're most successful at convincing someone to do something is when it's a win-win for both sides. and i've definitely had members of congress say i'm working hard on a particular issue. it's something that's important to our district. i need folks to help me make sure i stay in office and continue to work on this issue. so i do think influence can go both ways. members of congress can influence special interests mainly often in reacting to something that special interest doesn't like. >> host: good morning. caller: good morning.

i have two questions. my first question is that you're a good spokesman for the lobbyists group and pleasant to watch on tv. and i was wondering where does your compensation come from other than your book? guest: well, if you've written a book you'll know there's not much compensation with that. my clients are associations, organizations, special interests. they in fact indeed are citizens. i am not registered. i believe i'm not currently registered as a lobbyist. i have two clients that i was doing lobbying for. and but they are associations. they are groups from the american association museum, the american library association. but again i'm not doing lobbying for them i'm doing a lot of speaking and training for their groups.

host: advocacy guru.com, a consultant and instructor of lobbying and author of a new book called the influence game. thank you for coming. guest: thank you. host: that's all for "washington journal" this morning. we'll be back tomorrow. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012]