you can: which questions about a new report on children from the federal interagency form. host: good morning. the house and senate out today after yesterday's dueling votes in the senate over taxes and new questions this morning in the house on whether lawmakers will vote on the farm bill before the current one expires in september. mitt romney in wyoming last night with a fundraiser with dick cheney, renewed speculation this morning on who mitt romney may be running with. the latest name to be mentioned prominently, former secretary of state condi rice. the president hits the road for a swing through virginia. it's friday, july 13, as the

questions continue over representative jesse jackson's medical condition, as well as congressional leaders commenting on what if anything he needs to disclose. we want to get your opinion. our phone lines are open. you can also join the conversation on our twitter page or send us an email. the question on members' personal health, how much should you know? 202-737-0001 for democrats. 202-737-0002 if you're a republican. you have a line for independents, 202-826-0205. a couple of stories related to this, first from the "chicago sun-times," former representative, now the mayor of chicago, rheaume emanuel, weighing in on all of this, saying don't rush jackson's return to congress. he added his voice, writes the "sun-times" for those representing privacy for an ailment most recently described as a mood disorder, and then poking fun at congress, why

should he get back to work, congress does no work. the last time i checked, they had their second repeal of the bill, why rush? the story from the "chicago sun-times." house leaders offering support as jackson jr. treated for a disorder. spoker of the house john baners was asked about it yesterday saying we hope he gets well soon, and frankly, he hopes he gets back soon. the democratic leader in the house is nancy pelosi. she was also asked about this yesterday. >> our prayers and thoughts are with him and with his family. we wish him the comfort he needs to get well. i said at the time when he knew -- when they had a handle on what the evaluation was, that they would make it known, and they have, and i think that -- i don't know how many members have said anything to you, but none of them have said anything to me about it. >> have you spoke within his family or anyone? >> well, not since his

statement. not since his statement, no. but i think that that statement should enable him to have the care and time he needs to get well, and his constituents to know that this is what the nature -- because we just didn't know, and now we do. host: the comments of the democratic leader, former house speaker nancy pelosi asked specifically about representative jesse jackson jr., who is, as the office had announced on wednesday, suffering from a "mood disorder." the congressional reporter with mcclatchy newspapers joins us. thank you very much for being with us. >> thanks for having me. host: from the earlier statements, after june 10 to what we found out on wednesday, what new have you been able to find out, and what has been the response, as we heard from the democratic leader pelosi and others on capitol hill? >> you pretty well summed it up. we know what the public knows, frankly, about this.

you know, you don't probe too deeply into this, because it is a very personal matter. the operative question -- there are two questions. number one, is the office functioning? are constituents being served? all evidence points to yes. that's number one. number two is the age-old question, how much do we as reporters and the public need to know? it's a very hard question and hard to answer in the an tract because every case is different. in this case, we know what we need to know, and i think that's sufficient at the moment. host: let me share with you what abc news is reporting, because whenever there is a vacuum of information, the speculation begins to circulate and echo through the news cycles. one senior aide telling abc news that under no circumstances did the congressman attempt suicide. that rumor, we should point out, was floated on chicago's wls talk radio show. and then abc news writing about mood disorders, saying that they are fairly common in the

u.s. almost 7% of u.s. adults have depression in a given year, almost 17% of americans will experience in their lifetime some, according to the national institute of mental health. the number is slightly lower for bipolar disorder. we don't have anything more specifically in terms of the type of mood disorder that he is dealing with and also the treatment, but we've also been told by doctors that they expect a full recovery. david lightman, your thoughts on all of that. >> yeah, and i think again, at the moment, that's all we need to know. if there is some allegation that somehow he was not performing his job properly, and we've had other members of congress who have been in that situation, then i think we need to know more, but there's absolutely no allegation of that, and i think, again, it's a private matter. his constituents are still being served. and we just have to let this play itself out. host: so what is -- and you've answered part of this already, david lightman, but what is the obligation or the

responsibility of a member of congress? how much should they have to disclose, and at what point do you think we may need to learn more about whether it's congressman jesse jackson jr. or really any other member of the house or senate or other elected official? >> that's a great question. of course, you know, members of congress and for that matter anybody in public life has been struggling with that question for ages. i mean, you look at senator mark kirk from illinois also, who i believe had a stroke several months ago, and his office fully disclosed his medical records, his condition and so on and so forth. you go back through history, you look at ronald reagan in 1985. granted, he was the president, but when he got cancer and was at bethesda naval hospital, we had ex-usual crating detail with charts and graphs and all that. but does that apply in this case? probably not. i think each case has to be looked at differently. so it's a very tough question to answer.

host: the comments of david lightman, joining us on the phone. he covers congress for mcclatchy newspapers. thanks very much for checking in with us on this friday morning. >> oh, pleasure, thank you. host: our phone lines are open. you can also join the conversation on our twitter page, twitter.com slashe cspanwj. or on facebook. there's this point, saying representative jackson and his family should know the speculation is probably worse than the actual problem. they've had plenty of experience with it. ryan on the phone from chicago, democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to say that i think there's been too much media overkill on this issue. of course, representative jackson is due his privacy. i think the public should remember that in the past, we did not know a lot about the health conditions of elected officials. for example, franklin roosevelt had been a victim of polio, and

for many years the public, since there was no television at that time, and he did his fireside chats by radio, they did not know that he was in a wheelchair most of the time. there's been speculation over the degree of dementia that ronald reagan may have had while in office. so i think that we do need to allow our elected officials to have their personal privacy, and that is my comment. host: ryan, thanks for the call. the water post is reprinting an associated press story that also made your newspaper with the headline, congressman jesse jackson's mood disorder likely raising more questions about his hushed absence. the congressman's disclosure that he is suffering from a mood disorder still leaves many questions about his secretive medical leave and whether the illinois congressman has satisfied mounting calls to be more open about his month-long absence.

hours after democratic leaders in congress ratcheted up the pressure on jackson to reveal more information, his office late wednesday released a brief statement from his doctor saying the chicago democrat was receiving intensive medical treatment at a residential treatment facility for the mood disorder, but it offered no details about jackson's whereabouts or even the name of the doctor, citing federal privacy laws. that's really what we're asking, just how much should you know about a member of congress? as we heard from the previous caller, whether it's other elected officials, a senator, governor, or a state representative, nance a on the phone from sydney, ohio. good morning, independent line. caller: hello? host: go ahead, nancy. caller: ok, i'm tired of -- taking and getting off of the subject. don't we all get sick? hello? host: is that your comment? caller: yeah, we all get sick.

and they use that to get, you know, even down here, to keep us from having jobs, preexisting condition. host: nancy, thanks for the call from ohio. paul on the phone, fort wayne, indiana, republican line. paul, you with us? caller: yes. host: good morning. caller: i have a question. this is on why jesse jackson is out of the house. could it be maybe -- this is just a hypothetical question -- could it be that maybe that since the republican house is looking into the reasoning of going on and appointing and maybe the governor of -- i mean, illinois, has it got anything to do in any way

connected with maybe recalls from the republic house? maybe not showing up in the senate or the house. host: thanks for the call. actually, that's the story this morning from paul cane inside "the washington post." it's also on "the washington post" website, chronicling some of the events that put congressman jackson on top may also have contributed to his downfall. the story begins with the moment in which barack obama was declared the winner in chicago. his victory speech, and the moments that followed in which many people speculated that jesse jackson jr. would succeed barack obama in the u.s. senate. what followed for jackson, who is 47 years old, has been a political, professional, and personal free-fall that has left his career in at that timers and his political future in question. one of the points from the story -- in late 2010, his wife, sandy jackson, told the

"chicago tribune" about an affair that the congressman had nearly ended their own marriage . host: our question, how much do you need to know about members of congress? our phone lines are open. we have a call from connecticut. good morning. welcome to the conversation. caller: good morning. i would like to say three things, as someone who has suffered from profound mood disorder in my life. the first of which is somebody's medical records, as somebody who has been particular bipolar disorder, are going to look a great deal different from somebody who suffered a heart attack. i think it's really important to be sensitive to that, because there could be things in that medical record though not necessarily harmful, could prove embarrassing, and there's

really no reason for anybody to see what's in there. host: ok. caller: the second thing i would like to say is that we have had great leaders who have had mood disorders, among them abraham lincoln and also, in england, winston churchill, who used to call mania his black dog. and the last thing i'd like to say, which i feel is very important, is that i recovered more or less completely from bipole an disorder and no longer need to take medications by having the mercury fillings removed from my teeth. i just wanted to share that with your watchers. host: thank you, from connecticut. steve harrison has this point -- if a member's health affects the operation of the country. there should be disclosure. otherwise, it is private. the "chicago tribune" has this headline, colleagues to representative jackson, get well. he points out that congressional colleagues expressing sympathy yesterday

over his medical leave, but some have said that the incomplete explanations of his illness have been the case of a botched public relations that has fueled the rumor mill. one fellow democrat saying that i heard 10 different rumors, this is what happens when a staff or whoever doesn't tell the public what's going on. jordan is on the phone from phoenix, arizona, independent line. good morning. caller: hello? host: yes, good morning. caller: thank you for c-span. well, i just wanted to say, i don't think it's any of our business to poke into the lives of these congressmen. i think it's disrespectful. we have more important things to worry about in our daily lives alone, like finding a job and steve nash going to the lakers. host: our next call is alex in greenbelt, maryland, republican line, good morning. caller: yes, i agree that mental disorders should be treated by doctors, and i also agree that there's some important things that are going

on, and i think i'm thankful for c-span and hope we would concentrate on more pertinent topics. but, you know, as an employer and as an employee, there are always policies in jobs that, if you don't show up for your job and let the job know where you are for at least three days, it's called job abandonment. when you're a public employee and being paid to serve the public, you have a responsibility to the public. so, if you're not showing up for your haven't given an explanation, it's only reasonable that it's called job abandonment. it's just a responsible thing to do. thank you. host: alex, thanks for the call. from donna,, we should know everything about the people who are working for us. jeff, democrats line, kansas city. the question this morning, are members' personal health, how much should you know? jeff? caller: i think we need to know all we need to know, since they are in office and they have a lot of responsibilities. but one of my comments, i am a

recovered alcoholic drug addict. i was diagnosed with bipolar, anti-depression -- or depression, a.d.d., adhd, and then finally getting sober and doing this spiritual design for living that i have, it has all been removed. i don't need no pills. when they put me on some of that medication, it really, really messed me up. host: how are you doing today, jeff? caller: i am wonderful. so, for him, i have this thing that i want to give to anybody that wants it. it's just a sign to live spiritual that i know in my heart would relieve whatever is going on with mr. jackson. could i get a chance to talk to him? i doubt it. but there is a cure, i promise. i went through all of it. and today, i am free. host: jeff, thank you.

thank you for sharing jurorer to. caller: i'll say a prayer, and for all of us i pray every day. host: good luck to you as well. one of our viewers saying, how much did we know about dick cheney's health? focus on the physical illness, we may have overlooked mental illnesses. that call is mildred is st. louis, missouri, on our line for independents. good morning, welcome to the program. we'll go to mildred next, if you're there. david lightman was talking about senator mark kirk, who suffered a stroke earlier this year. about two months ago, his staff released this video in which he talked about his treatment, his recovery, and he spoke to his constituents. here's a portion of what is a 2 1/2-minute video on senator kirk's senate website. >> i suffered a stroke on the 21st of january. thanks to the doctors, nurses, and professionals of the rehabilitation institute of chicago, the r.i.c., i'm walking again.

leading to my hope to climb the 45 steps that my staff counted from the parking lot to the senate front door to fight for the people of illinois. i'm currently enrolled in a walking study for stroke patients. it's described as an intensive program. one of the more interesting setups they had was a set of wraps around my legs with silver balls to be all recorded so a stick figure could be generated on the computer. they have some ways of making things more difficult. yesterday, i was wearing a 10-pound weight. they described it as the weight of a baby on your ankle. it really does slow you down. i want to thank everyone, especially for the presentation they have given me to recover from a big stroke.

a lot of thank the people of illinois for granting me the honor to represent them in the united states senate. i can't wait to go back to work to vote to spend less and borrow less and tax less to help fix our economy. host: the comments of senator mark kirk, who is recovering from his own health condition, a stroke earlier this year, being treated at northwestern university hospital in chicago. and that video is a 2 1/2-minute youtube video on senator kirk's website. back to your calls, the question about a member's personal health, how much should you know? how far do we need to know? mild he red has been waiting. st. louis, missouri. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. i have a question to ask of c-span as to why do -- who picked the subject matters that you talk about each day. there is so much going on in this country affecting much

more people, and i'm just puzzled as to why do you even comment on a representative's health that has just come into play? naturally we need to know a little bit, but we don't need to dig into it 45 minutes or so. and mental illness is something different than a physical illness. it's not something that people will, you know, if you say you have cancer or just like the senator that has a heart attack, you have more compassion, whereas mental illness is something that people get all -- like we're talking about a person on the moon or something, but it's a disorder of the body also. so i don't think we need to know anything except for what has already been placed out there, but we need to be talking more about people that are out of work. how can we find jobs? how can they find jobs? what is going on in the job

market, for them, for the majority of people, and that's my comment. thank you so much. host: thank you. mildred, you may have just answered your own question, because the reason we're focusing on this story, first and foremost here at c-span, we focus on congress in washington, as we heard from senator kirk, his physical ailment with congressman jesse jackson jr., the mental disorder that he's dealing with or whether it's other elected officials, senator kennedy with his long battle with cancer. some bringing up president reagan. so we really wanted to broaden out the discussion because of this story that is in the news, because members of congress, congressional leaders, the speaker, democratic leaders have been asking about this. a member of congress who is very well known issuing a statement, in part because of his father, jesse jackson sr., so collectively this is an issue that people are talking about here in washington. we wanted to get all of your points of view. this is a three-hour program. we're going to focus on jobs and the economy. we'll also be focusing on dodd-frank later in the program.

so, a lot of issues every day here on this program, but we just felt that was something that's important, and because of your opinion, we think it's a good question. so thanks for the call from st. louis. thanks for your feedback. maryland is on the phone from monroe, louisiana. good morning to you. welcome to the program. caller: thanks very much. my comment as a member of the medical society is that, you know, unfortunately we have a kind of a morbid curiosity for social icons and people placed in areas of authority where we're curious and we want to know more than we really should. but from the aspect of medicine, many of these mental disorders are just as the previous lady stated, they're just other positions. and if we have a lot more compassion and try to understand them better, i think that it would lead to a greater compassion and maybe acceptance in general. a lot of these things can be overcome simply by nutritionally based changes. it's been proven that a lot of

disorders are caused by lead poisoning, for example, which is chemical minerals, all sorts of things that can help. but i think that as we approach these things on a more common level and try to understand that the brain is just another organ and also that people with heart attacks go through mental changes. they go through emotional changes. you know, everybody has their own battle. and if we can supportive and help, i think that in general we'll learn more compassion from one another and also, you know, maybe we'll learn that these people have put themselves out there to be scrutinized because they're interested in being a help. host: marilyn, thanks for the call of the appreciate it. thank you from monroe, louisiana. from the "boston globe," front-page story this morning, mitt romney asailed on bain exit date. the obama campaign accusing him of lying, charges the romney

campaign is calling reckless. another headline from florida, half of florida voters favor repeal of the healthcare law. that's the story above the fold for the "miami herald." the survey done by "the miami herald" and the "tampa bay times." from the "pittsburgh post-gazette," the louis freeh report, the investigation into penn state, "callous and shocking disregard for the victims," including the late joe with a determine sandow other penn state executives. that story this morning, front page of the "pittsburgh post-gazette," also front page of the "washington times" and the "new york times." brett is on the phone, milwaukee. good morning, welcome to the program. caller: i just wanted to comment a little bit on mr. jackson's condition. first and foremost, i think that when you have people who are in public office like this and whatnot, we still have to treat it like a job essentially. so, you're not showing up for work for a period of time, such as a month, you do owe it to your constituents and your people to disclose some sort of

information. also, i think a lot of us are really kind of forgetting about the compassion of american people in general. it would be very tough, i think, for any american to, when hearing information like that, be overly critical. i think if there was a statement made earlier, i think that we as people would understand and only really come out in support. that's all i wanted to say. i just think that if you're not going to show up for work like that, you tell people, we're very understanding, and i think it would be nice. thank you. host: thanks for the call. from politics, this headline on another member of congress, senator susan collins and a near ripken-like stat nuts u.s. senate. she's one of a shrinking number of moderate senate republicans willing to vote across party lines. senator susan collins accustomed to enormous attention being paid on the votes that she casts. a lot of attention yesterday because she cast her 5,000th consecutive vote in the u.s. senate. tributes from senator harry reid, a democrat, and senator mitch mcconnell, republican. they're available online at bloomberg.com.

ron is on the -- they're available online at cspan.com. caller: i think it's interesting we're asking the question about representatives, and yet candidates go through much more scrutiny over much more tawdry things. and i think it is an important question to know what the status of your current representative is, especially depending on what kind of committees that they're assigned to. there's a whole lot of intelligence that could compromise the security of the united states that a person in the wrong mental state especially might be more subjected to compromising. i think it's important. thank you, guys. host: on the republican line from ohio, michael has this point on our twitter page, does anyone think this would be as big of a story if it wasn't jesse jackson jr.? back to more of your calls in just a moment. the secretary of state, who is making a swing through asia, this headline, china and neighbors argue over boundaries

in a photograph of the stect secretary of state as she meets with the vietnamese foreign minister. this took place yesterday. and front page of "the washington post," some developing stories with regard to syria. let me just share with you how the "post" and "new york times" is framing what's happening over there. from damascus, the revolution that has engulfed much of syria in bloodshed is now approaching the capital in ways to challenge long-held assumptions about president al-assad's hold on power. the city now feels pregnant with rage and ready to explode. anti-regime graffiti has been scribbled on walls in almost every neighborhood. at night the sound of shelling in nearby suburbs that have fallen under rebel control echos throughout the streets. and then this story, front page of the "wall street journal," below the fold, u.s. concern as syria moves its chemical stockpile. the date line is washington,

and they write -- host: marty on the fine from des moines, iowa. back to your calls on the issue of members of congress, how much do you need to know? good morning, marty. caller: hi, steve. i love c-span. this is where i get most of my news. i just wanted to say, i think their positions are so important, i think they should personally step down. i think they should disclose what's necessary. and i think it's representative dingle from michigan, for heaven's sake, these people should not be allowed to stay in a job until they drop.

they should be responsible. and step down. their positions are important. if they're not at work, they need to resign. and let them keep their health insurance and then just -- you know, find someone else as a representative. they shouldn't be allowed to stay if they can't perform their job. nobody else can do it. host: ok. thanks for the call. one of our viewers framing it in terms of presidential politics. what has romney not revealed? again, the question, how much do you need to know about members of congress or other elected officials? speaking of politics, two stories, first from cbs news, vice president cheney hosting a fundraiser in wyoming that took place last night. the latest in a series of campaign fundraisers for mitt romney. one can speculate that the possibility of a running mate did come up, because this morning in the friday edition of the washington street journal, condi rice's name is

floated as a potential v.p. choice. there was talk about it last night on the drudge report. there's also a piece this morning by peggy noonan in the op-ed of the "wall street journal" focusing on the possibility that condi rice could be on the shortlist as running mate to hit mom knee, and also speculation on host: next is beverly from missouri. caller: absolutely, we should know the health situation if they are out longer than six weeks. if it is a permanent illness, they should step down. if it is not, if it is something they can recover from, they should keep their jobs. i have another question. this is a question that 90% of us are going to want to know. it is an unnecessary question.

like when they ask president obama if he has made any mistakes. his answer would be more relevant. he should have said he overestimated the republican leadership, thinking they would love america more than they hated him. that would be an interesting topic. host: i am glad you brought that up. we have that piece of video from cbs news -- cbsnews.com. there is a new book out called "it is the middle class, stupid." we will be showing that video clip. it is available on the cbs news website. thank you for giving me a chance

to give a preview. mary is on our republican line. go ahead. caller: good morning. i would like to make a comment about the difference. because this representative is who he is. he has to be handled with kid gloves. if he wore a white republican, it would be -- were a white republican, it would be smeared in the media. everybody is talking about this and being so careful with the subject. mental illness is no different from any other illness in the body, except when you are supposed to be making it extremely important decisions for the rest of the people. i believe when you have a mental condition, you definitely need

to step down until you are absolutely sure -- cured no matter what color you are and no matter what you are republican or democrat. host: an article about jesse jackson, jr. in the chicago sun- times. the article says congress is not doing a lot about it. let him recover from his illness. we have a caller on the democrat's line. caller: thank you for taking my call, c-span. i just have a few quick comments. the first one being, i do not think the american people are going to get the truth out of congress no matter what the subject is. second, i am a criminal defense

lawyer. the fact that they were going to file charges on jackson, jr. for the blagojevich scandal, he is setting up a criminal defense to keep him out of federal prison and being roommate with -- a roommate with blagojevich. people should look at this a little differently from a medical issue. i doubt that it is. host: ok. thank you for the call. a local and national story that got a lot of attention. -- s fargo's selling a bia wells fargo saddling a bias suite for 75 -- $7.5 million. federal of fichus credited the

city of baltimore for first raising the issue of discrimination in the banque's subprime for this program. it is the second-largest settlement in the justice department post of history. another article we want to bring to your attention is in the new york times. it is on the farm bill. moved through the house agriculture committee. he first major overhaul of the nation's nutrition program is in jeopardy over the degree of spending cuts. moderates and democrats think the bill goes far enough in a time of economic growth. the-week economic growth. -- wear economic growth. -- weak economic growth. the current bill expires on june

30. we have a caller from virginia on the independent line. caller: if you can do your job, your health is irrelevant. everybody has a right to health care privacy, at least they keep telling us that. they give us a form telling us we have health care privacy. that was my comments. thank you. host: thank you. this is a story that has been getting a lot of national attention. the front page of the new york times. it is the abuse scandal at penn state. it was in the washington times. there is evidence that sandusky 's crimes were ignored to

protect penn state. finally, eugene robinson. he writes, paterno was more powerful than even the university president. the editorials in reaction to the investigation revealed yesterday. jerome is on the phone from boston, the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. my question is, why is somebody so focused on somebody else's health care. mental illness is mental illness. as long as he is able to perform his job and his job duties, why don't everybody else just back off. i do not think anybody else in this country would want their

private information publicized. host: ok. caller: enough is enough. the job issue should be what is going on here. there are a lot of people who are out of work. that is what they need to be focus on instead of making people lose their focus. the focus should be on the jobs. host: thank you for the point. daniel has this point. how much should you know about a member of congress and his or her personal health? we will be talking to james carville. this is in the metro section of the washington post.

it is talking about richmond, virginia. there is this from inside the financial times. he will be heading to louden county, a suburb of washington d.c., where the president did well four years ago and he is hoping to do well in 2012. we will take a short break and when we come back, james carville and stan greenberg will be joining us. they have a book, "it is the

economy, stupid." we have a caller. caller: congressman jackson does not represent me. it is up to the people who elected him to worry about this. i think this should be left to the people who elected representative jackson. i have heard speaker boehner say many times that be people -- the people of america sent them here. the people of their district send them there. i am concerned with my representative. let the people of chicago the concerned with what is happening with representative jackson. not us. host: so gabby giffords should

not release all of the info on her recovery. all of you are weighing in on the issue. mary is on the line from oregon. caller: him a line needs to be struck here. these people are entrusted with making important decisions for the country. if a mental illness is involved, that is pretty significant. what i have observed is that most of your examples of congressmen and political figures who have given full disclosure are republican. maybe that is because if it is a republican, they are attacked like crazy. they are tiptoeing around jesse jackson because he is jesse jackson and he is a democrat. if this were a republican

suffering from a mood disorder, colbert and letterman would be ripping on it every night. i agree with the lady from michigan who say his it is very bias. speaking of civility, it is the democrats who are uncivil. host: thank you for your call. here is a tweet. you can join our conversation on all of these issues. at the annual summer meeting of the national governor's association is taking place in williamsburg, virginia. live coverage at 1030 eastern time tomorrow morning -- and 30 a.m. eastern time tomorrow

morning. -- 10:30 eastern time tomorrow morning. the president traveling through virginia as well on a series of campaign bus stops. we will have coverage of that. up next, we will turn our attention to presidential politics. they are the -- he is one of the authors of," it is the middle class, stupid." "washington journal" continues. we are back in a moment.

>> this weekend on american history tv -- >> it goes from the beginning of the nation to the present. we are trying to keep this large exhibition full and documented to reflect the largest story of american democracy. >> a look at the smithsonian's presidential memorabilia collection. also sunday, more from "the contenders," our series on key political figures who ran for president and lost, but changed political history. this week, when the willkie.

-- wendell willkie. he would become an unlikely ally to fdr. american history tv this weekend on c-span 3. >> when you think about cyber actors, have nation states, you have cyber criminals, you have hackers, you have hacktivists and you have terrorists. you have other non-nation state actors that you have to consider. in one of these attacks, you may not know who is doing it, who is attacking your system. either way, the outcome could be the same. you lose the financial sector or the power grid or your system's

capabilities for a period of time. it does not matter who did it. you have to come up with a defensive strategy that solves that. >> why to be national security agency director discussing future cyber threats online at the c-span video library. "washington journal" continues. host: i want to welcome stan greenberg and james carville, co-authors of the book "it is the economy, stupid. " condoleezza rice is on the short list for vice president on the run the ticket. guest: they are going to put

condoleezza rice up for vice president. that is the most of certain things i have never heard. guest: that party can now nominate a pro-choice candidate for vice president. it is not going to happen. guest: probably one of the three people most associated with the iraq war. the wildly successful, wildly popular iraq war. the whole thing was a head fake. host: who does he pick? guest: we do not know. if i were him, i think he needs some authenticity. i would do either ryan or christie. someone that the core of the party would find motivating.

guest: ed rollins is right. the party is to white and too -- too white and too fat. host: i want to talk about the book. guest: we are writing about a three decade decline of the middle class, the hearts of the country. things at the heart that enabled us to be where we are. it is too important not to make the election about it. host: he point out in this book, an interesting statistic. the bottom 10% has gained 10% in

real wages and the top 1% as gains 250%. guest: if you look at the middle 60%, they have gained 27%. there are a lot of books about income inequality. this book is less about inequality and more about the lack of income growth in that 24-60% area. they have lost part of their net worth since 2009. in the book, we hear about the two of the most interesting facts in the book. hours worked have gone up exponentially. if you think of 100 million hamsters churning at the where they can to keep the wheel going, that is a portrait of the

american middle class. they are not going anywhere unless they go back. guest: we tried to listen to people and that drives our analysis. it affects the long-term social mobility. if you listen to people and what they are focused on -- we hand people the graphs and they go right to their line, the middle line, the median family. that is what they are looking at. look at the period from world war ii until 1980, it grew by a lot and it grew together. we are looking for a different kind of country. host: the title of the book clearly came from what you place in the little rock campaign headquarters, it is the economy, stupid. why did you put that sign in the campaign headquarters and what is the genesis of it? guest: we had a lot of smart

people working there and people who came in with a lot of smart ideas and new about a lot of things. i was trying to get the campaign more focused on the economy. it is the economy, stupid. how can we do something about restoring housing. it is a good thing -- they are all good things, but it is not where we should be focused. in 1992, we thought the economy should be the focus of everything we did. in this book, it should be the restoration of the middle class. host: charlie rose says -- here is a portion of what the president told cbs news. [video clip] >> i first two years i was

thinking about this job and just getting the policy right. that is important. the nature of this office is also to tell a story to the american people that gives them a sense of unity and purpose and optimism, especially during tough times. when i ran, everybody said, he can give a great speech, but can he manage to be job? in my first two years, the notion was, he has been juggling and managing a lot of stuff, but where is the story that tells us where he is going? i think that was a legitimate criticism. getting out of this town and spending more time with the american people, listening to them and being in a conversation with them about where we go to

the other as a country -- i need to do a better job of that in my second term. >> a better job of explaining. >> explaining, but also inspiring. host: your impression? guest: he did not tell people where we were going. people were looking for that. they want to know when this thing ends up. people are kind of desperate to know the direction. they want america to succeed and they want the president to succeed. telling a story, which is a journey about where you are going and what you are doing -- people will give you a lot of space. they know how tough it is out there. they are not looking to throw these. -- goodies. host: james carville, you were

quoted as saying they are not driving the narrative. guest: he said he was not driving the narrative. i wanted to jump out of my seat when i heard him say that. if you do not put things in the context of america, they cannot see things in the context of the larger plan. these are the things stan and i have been talking about for a long time. the narrative is what is happening to the middle class and how we rebuild it. that was one of the most encouraging interviews i have seen the present hidden in a long time. guest: cutting taxes for the middle class. this president's economic policy, if you look at the recovery act, was 40% tax cuts. he has done tax cuts each year.

his main economic philosophy is tax cuts. if you make 250,000 dollars, it would be in the context of making sure been middle-class -- $250,00, it would be in the context of making sure everyone in the middle class gets a tax cut. host: you have said -- we have a $16 billion debt. how did you bring it down? guest: it is not just immoral. it is dishonest. it does not tell us it will cut everything for poor people and we will give rich people a tax break, but we will not tell

people things are getting a tax break. according to the cbo, he wants to increase overall health-care costs and cut it to the people who are getting medicare so they can save it and give more tax cuts. it is the essence of immorality. plus, he is a dedicated follower of ayn rand. made his staff read her. she may be one of the most immoral people of the 20th- century. i have talked to a jesuits' about that. she thought the -- jesuits about that. she thought the golden rule was immoral. host: how long have you two known each other? guest: we met along the way. it was the beginning of the

clinton campaign when we came together. guest: 20 years ago. guest: we have been talking every morning since. host: the book is titled, "it is the middle class, stupid." betty is on the phone from illinois and the democrat's line. caller: my first comment is about alan greenspan. as far as the stimulus, i believe he was not told the truth as far as the economy was. that is why he did not put enough money into the stimulus. my second comment is, at least the president said he made a mistake. president bush was asked the same question and he said he did not make any mistakes. as far as the book, thank you, mr. karabell -- carville, for

the book. i know your wife is a republican. have a good day. guest: thank you so much. host: the president did save the american middle-class and republicans care only for the 2% ridge. guest: -- the republicans only care for the 2% rich. guest: it is pretty amazing how voters, throughout the whole crisis, understand. they have some of the responsibility. wall street has some of the responsibility. ordinary voters knew it was a shared responsibility. they want everybody to play a part in bringing us back. there are the 2%, the wall

street and ceo's who did not do their part. host: a call on the independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i want to get to the clinton question. first, and romney. he made $20 -- $20 million a year and he can get an extension on his taxes? we do not need another guide -- guy like this. the question with clinton is, when is your buddy clinton going to move the unity of the base to the mainstream media and? they are so afraid of the military, they will not move the debate to the mainstream media. guest: that me go first. maybe i can explain.

romney is a dying who clearly feels like, rules that apply to everybody else do not apply to me. anybody who runs for president has released their taxes. he says he is not going to do it. he says, i have an immigration plan, but i would not tell you until after the election. he was to go 20 percent more than the bush tax cuts -- 20% more than the bush tax cuts for the rich. he was asked how they would pay for it, and he said he would not tell anyone before the election. the idea is you're supposed to tell people before the election. that is how you get elected. none of this is a surprise. guest: also the issue about addressing the inequality in the country, his response was let's

discuss that in quiet rooms. he does not think the big issues can be done. host: this is how "the new york post" puts it, saying that bill clinton was viewed in 1991 and 1992 as someone that was young and slick and he need to seemed substantive. mitt romney does not have that issue. guest: he is not an ignorant man, but he is making an absurd argument. bill clinton had 1000 more times experience than mitt romney. the idea that somebody is more mature and did not tell us what to do? get out of here. that does not make sense at all.

it is an idiotic argument. guest: in listening to these people, and you look at the debate about the test, did obama get the economy moving, was he successful? that is not where the voters are. they thought he was handed very difficult things. it was very tough. they want to know what we are going to do. they think the middle class is in trouble. they want to know what you are going to do. what is coming? what is in the future? guest: i hope the mitt romney camp follows that advice. everything that we see, focus groups, polls, they want to know what is your idea to get the middle class moving again. by and large, more people want to think about the next four them the last four.

host: this point on auto makers -- the only thing the president said was the unions. that is one of the arguments republicans are critical of. guest: the public looks at tarp and they view it as one thing. we had this crisis. working people were in trouble, losing their houses. small businesses were in trouble. before the election, democrats, republicans, john mccain, obama, they figured out how to rescue the banks, the right thing to do and the auto companies, the right thing to do. they believe the president has the same deal. that is why 20 tend was difficult. -- 2010 was difficult. guest: there are a lot of people in the auto industry that are

not gm or chrysler. it goes deeper than that. the auto bailout saved these people also. it is an enormous industry with enormous ramifications, and not everyone is in a union. host: the book is titled "it's the middle class, stupid." nancy is on the phone. republican. caller: i would like to ask mr. james carville, is there really a middle class? it looks like we have the rich and we have the port. i have not seen the middle class in existence for some time. i am not clear. guest: that is a great question. i will say a few yards and turn it over to my colleague. you do, but it is not what it used to be. stan, explain how we define middle class and what we say it means.

guest: we go through defining it. you are asking the right question. we think it is an aspiration, and identity, what people believe about hard work being rewarded. that is what you are saying. if people are not -- hard work is not being rewarded. people are building up college debt. if we talk to people in the polling, 10 years ago 75% thought there was a decent chance for you to do well, given the hard work. that has dropped 50% now. there is a major drop in confidence that hard work is rewarded. if people believe they are on the edge and slipping. when they ask -- when they are asked are you middle-class, they say they used to be or their parents were. they also think it was not

acceptable. if they get to that conclusion, they do not say let's stop here. that is what people want to know what you're going to do. host: i want to read stan greenberg's words in this book and i want to frame the question as to the 10th congressional districts and the lack of bipartisanship on big issues. you write in the book -- how can that happen? guest: it is difficult. one of the things that has made this difficult and it has been backed up by political scientists, the way you draw of these congressional districts -- in order to save incumbent's we have clustered the parties in the district. the to the congressional

district. the biggest fear of a congressman is that he will get beat in someone in his own party -- by someone in his own party, then you have trouble. as long as you do not fear losing the general election, he said i will not let someone in that is more hyper-partisan. if you look at it over time, this is not the only thing, but it is a huge contributor to what we have in the united states. it is a gerrymandering, and not in the sense that we used to learn about in civics class to protect people, but they draw weird lines. there are more of these districts then there were before host: if you get some of the big pieces of -- before. host: if you could some of the big pieces of legislation, civil rights in the 1960's, ronald reagan and working with social

security, bill clinton on welfare reform, why is it different today? guest: it is based on data. if you take republicans and say what is your ideology, at 80% identified as conservative. if you say to democrats, what is your ideology, only one-third are liberal. we have a diverse party. it is hard to the governing party because we are so diverse. i think the problem is mainly on the republican side where you have this unit for more the -- uniformity. we do not have that diversity. you have to break that. you have to change the dynamic on the republican side. guest: there is a generalization that republicans

might. if you're married, you have a better chance of being in the middle class. if you go to church, there is a better chance. host: conversely, if you have a single-parent family. guest: you will have a difficult time. if you drove the value of a male worker down, you drove the value of that person's spouse down with it. there are some things i really like, the child care credit, eitc, mostly for single parents, and maybe there are things you can do on the value of having a strong family. i think that fits in well to the mosaic. host: rick had this point, stan greenberg, does the president needed big initiative before the election to energize the base

and it said the moderates? guest: i think the big -- hicksite the moderates? guest: i think the big initiative is what he is doing now, saying this election is about the middle class, identifying with what people are going through in this country, understanding how pivotal this is for people and the future. guest: this is something that people are fascinated with. we need a big idea. that is what we really need. in recent america, every stupid idea has been a big idea. a big idea was to invade iraq. that was pretty dumb. another big idea, cut taxes for rich people. that will stimulate the economy and the government will have more wealth. that did not work out. another big idea. let's deregulate the banks. they will innovative and think

of things to juice up the economy. well, we deregulated them, and the housing market blew up in our face. maybe, and this could be a radical thing, as opposed to one, big dumb idea, we should, with three smart ideas and we might be better off. host: if you are listening on c- span radio heard coast to coast xm channel 119, we are joined by james carville and stan greenberg, the book is called "it's the middle class, stupid" -- guest: the point i found -- i

tried to contrast is what i talk about with the reagan democrats. it was very much focused on race. they looked around and said everyone is rigging the game in favor of black people and against the black -- against the white man. it was a racial discussion. what we say here is that people now get that our country is losing jobs and income in the way we are organized and we have to change that. host: deborah. cincinnati. democrats line. caller: -a 41-year-old person, and i work full time all day, every day every week and i cannot support myself. i work a 40-hour workweek and i cannot support myself. i live with my mother. my daughter is in college.

i have done training. i am one of the lucky ones, with a salary, benefits. i am one of the people you're talking about. his disheartening. it is demoralizing to go to work every day to get a paycheck and realize that i cannot take care of myself fifth. host: what you do for a living, and can i ask what you make? caller: i worked as a production artist. i make $30,000 a year. i do not ask for much. i would like to start a business of my own one day, but that is impossible. i will be paying off my daughter's student loans and my own. my mother is 62. she is a retired schoolteacher. they want to cut her pension, or what little bit she has coming

in after she has contributed so much. she raised me. she influenced countless children. she worked hard for her church. we're just decent, american people, and we are not asking for a whole lot, but sometimes we need help. host: thank you. guest: this was not a set up question, but she is the book. guest: that is exactly the book. guest: we hear this so many times a year. every time we have a focus group, the only thing that makes her different is she was stronger. she did not break down. usually when people tell this story she breaks down. she has done what we expected her to do. she had training. she gets up, goes to work. her daughter has this to the

mound. she is training herself. her mother is 62. she is retired. the answer that paul ryan has is we will give you a voucher that will cost you another six to two hundred dollars a year. they do not -- $6,200 a year. they do not have 60 two dollars a year. these are not people that do not work. i know she is tired after 40, but before she is over she is going to have to do what a lot of people to and bill to 50. host: she is still with us. you just heard from james carville. caller: i do not know how much more i can do. i would never vote for anyone that looks like mitt romney, and i cannot say that i fully trust barack obama either. i am speaking as a black american. i am supposed to be his base,

the black, female voters. i believe he has helped the economy, but the trade-off in civil liberties i do not think is worth it. i do not know what to do. guest: i wish that i could tell you something over the phone that would make your life a lot better. guest: her story is important because one of the things we have been trying to say is that even though the financial crisis took a toll the story is a multi-generational and long-term event that we have to fix in that way. when you think about that, we should move fast on recognizing there is a humanitarian crisis. we have a piece in "the wall street journal" based on the book. we have a humanitarian crisis. we have to deal with the cost of education, college, stood in bed, health-care costs -- we need to drive those costs down

and use these reforms to do it. these things can happen now. there are things we can do. i know you are at the end of the rope, but there are things you could do. because i know it seems like the end of the rope, -- guest: i know it seems like the end of the rope. you seem like a strong person. i think he will make it and improve your life. host: tennessee. republican line. caller: thank you. steve, you do a wonderful job. for james carville, here is why i am not interested in reading any booked when you talk about morality. i think we now everything we need to know about your views about poor people of drag $100 through a trailer park and there

is no telling what you will find. i do not think we will forget that. if that is your idea of morality, i am a southerner, born and raised, and we were not raised that way, mr. carville. i do not know where you get your views of women in light of events that came about. i'm just wondering what your views are now, and until i hear some sort of retraction, i do not think i am interested in your book. guest: i guess you will not buy my book, and the book to you, and to the volunteers. host: you write in the book -- this goes back to the earlier

point with the pledge to america, and no tax increases. guest: i am trying to tell you what the reality is. there is a consensus that includes a significant portion of republicans that we have to raise taxes, and it has to be on the wealthy. if they can afford it. you cannot listen to the people on the calls and say they need to begin to sacrifice, too. it is the wealthy that can afford it. 75% of the polls say we should be raising taxes as part of anything else. host: in today's "washington journal called tell you right -- the wall street journal" you write -- we grew together, but that does not have been in the

past few decades guest: -- decades. guest: there was a sense of the financial crisis came and that destroy the middle class. the middle class was falling behind on a long time before september, 2008. that is the example i used. people had pneumonia, and a truck hit you. as a result, people lost 40% of their net worth. it almost went unnoticed. in my point, and i wrote a piece on the cnn website, if the top 1% lost 40% of their worth, we would have suspended habeas corpus. the supreme court would have been in session. it would be a tragedy we could not mention. the job creators, they lost 40%

of their own worth. what will happen at the hamptons? the median family in this country lost 40% of its entire net worth in a two-year. , and nobody yawned. host: rick is on the phone. caller: i would imagine both of you are rich men, and neither of you have said what the income for the middle class should be. in florida, my wife and i make $70,000 a year. $70,000 in new york city would not make you middle class. guest: that is what we talk about. if i live in florida, and i have a condo that night alone, and i have $60,000, $7,000 in retirement income, and i'm going -- $70,000 in retirement income,

i'm doing pretty good. if i am doing that in new york, i'm like the lady in cincinnati making $30,000. we address that in the book. guest: we are inclusive. income alone is $125,000 for a family of four, but we say income does not work. a 60% call themselves middle class, and another 25% calls themselves working class, we do it all. guest: one definition might have 75%. it is a lot of people. host: have you counted how many campaigns you have been involved with? guest: i have been in 22 different countries, and probably domestically 12. host: did you have a favorite

campaign? you talk about bill clinton. beyond that campaign? guest: bob casey in pennsylvania in 1986. it was the first one that i won , and i have so many relationships there, and we were not supposed to win. he lost three times before. you always remember the first one. host: why did he win? guest: i think he probably related to middle-class people better. both were from scranton. young bill scranton was the challenger william scranton who challenged barry goldwater for the nomination. casey was a democrat who have lost three times before. he was conservative. he was pro-live, but fairly

liberal on economic issues, if you will, but there was a cultural clash in the campaign to some extent that we identified. what we did is we ran center part of the state, branching out what a democrat needs not to get slaughtered. i referred it to the western most suburb of philadelphia to the eastern suburb of the. , it is alabama without -- of pittsburgh, it is alabama without white people. we did better in alabama than a democrat normally does. host: stan greenberg, your favorite campaign? guest: nelson mandela.

hard to top that. host: we go to the democrats' line. you are on the air. caller: the way i see it, the middle class, the way he writes the book, which is stupid. the problem with the middle class is you can not reach the minority. 30 years ago, it used to be caribbean people and african- americans, and now you can see they all disappeared because nobody wants to hire. everyone wants to run away from the process. they only want to hire illegal immigrants. they turned their back on the african american, the caribbean people. today, if you look at it, everybody wants to run away from the taxes, so how is the middle

class going to reach the minority and the rich going to reach the middle class? guest: from the call, -- thank you for the call, from nebraska. guest: we are not saying the middle class is stupid. guest: that is exactly the point. the middle class wants to be heard. host: indra. pittsburgh. republican line. caller: good morning. from the time mr. carville was from -- with the clinton administration to the obama administration, the people from the middle class got educated, they all have college degrees, and now under the obama administration, these kids that have college degrees have lost their ability to get that college education, and the education has gone from the

money that was their through federal aid and grants and gone to the middle class, and have lost the ability to get that money. of that money is going to the lower class, and we are losing the ability for the middle class to pull themselves up. host: stan greenberg. guest: you are reflecting something that is a problem among all classes. everybody is struggling. it is being driven by a failure to get college costs under control, the reduction of state support for education, the student loans program that was out of control. james and i talked about what is going on for -- with for-profit colleges. there is a massive problem. it is not just a problem the middle class alone is facing. in our view, the broad middle class is in trouble on this

issue. guest: college has gone very expensive, and that happened between the time president clinton left office, and the time president obama took office. i think the president has done a good thing in 2011. the way the student loans were funded is the federal government gave loans to banks. the student did not pay back the loan. the government had to pay back the loan. president obama said let's take the bank out of it. it was a lot of money. i want to say $60 billion record -- $60 billion. i could be wrong on that. that helps. then you have to look at college education in louisiana, lsu, it

is why i wear a cap on television. they lost 40% of public funding. as it has become more costly, and it is more complicated because the state pays the tuition, but they dropped it on fees and other things, that is happening across the board in higher education everywhere. so, the job market is not as good, you're getting out of school and you have more debt. it challenges the basic assumption that the best way to the middle class is to get a good education. that is getting more tense. host: you also write about politics and the midterm election in 2010. you say there was some sort of collective amnesia about the state of the country epiphany to of the bush administration. we've seen this in the first

terms of previous presidents, democrat and republican. guest: the tea party saw something and they organized. there is something to learn in that. the demographics did not favor democrats, and there are 1000 reasons, but they did, and you have to give them credit. guest: that has leveled out. you have an equal level of enthusiasm on either side. host: "it's the middle class, stupid the name of the book. caller: mr. carville, you are my favorite man in politics. guest: are you related? guest:," bob. -- uncle bob. caller: it seems like you can

get an answer out of you. i remember oliver north mentioned there were eight or nine people that had meetings that they would take over the government if something serious were to happen. i believe one of the questions was s, and he said a financial crisis would be one of the things what is the chance of some of these billionaires' getting together and actually doing this? guest: i am concerned about money in politics and with the billionaires are doing, and how well it is concentrated, but i'm not too concerned about billionaires' taking over government. what you should be worried about is that having so much influence. the conspiracy that somebody would take it over is not high on my concern list. guest: we do right in the book that we have to get the money

and the lobbyists under control. you cannot make the government works for the middle class if it is dominated by lobbyists and money. guest: as a result of citizens united, fewer and fewer people with more and more money have more and more influence. host: this is how you frame the argument this morning -- guest: that is what drives this book. that is what motivates us. it is like the calls we're getting here. .hey know they're in trouble host: one of our viewers says can you offer the president a list of slogans? guest: "it's the middle class, stupid." [laughter]

it is the next four years. stan and i talk about this all the time. they are open to a long-term solution. if you talk about the types of things you need to do to rebuild the middle class i think he would have a more receptive audience than people think. host: from lincoln, illinois. jeff. democrats line. -- farmington, illinois. just. democrats line. caller: i have been a democrat, and i am disgusted. he said the next four years are more important than the left four, and i do not blame for saying that because the democratic party can not run on the last four years. as a hard-working democrat, i am sick of my party being the champion of these people that do not want to work, that want a handout from government. every other day the democratic

party is trying to pass this or that to pay for this or that. the lady that said she makes $30,000 and does not know how to make it, i know people that are making $18,000 a year, getting by, and are happy. i want you to know that. guest: i did not think that guy is really a democrat. i'm going to take a wild guest. i am skeptical, but anyway, -- guest: $30,000, and a multi- generational responsibility is the woman had, you have to understand what people are going through. these are people that are working hard. you have to recognize these are hard-working people. guest: there are people that say you should not worry about this.

she has consumption equality. she has a cell phone. she has an iphone. people 30 years ago did not have that. the kind of car she drives is better than the car somebody would have driven 20, 30 years ago. so, it is like why are you whining about that? well, is the country does not stay aspirational, and if we do not move forward if -- can you imagine if you were living in the side house in the best of the day after you had radioed that the day before? let's just let the when barron's take everything because we have a radio. your life is better. he did not need money anymore. the logic of gets lost. you have a mother you're taking

care of, a daughter you're trying to educate, you're making $30,000, you are working hard but you are not getting ahead. host: this is how the book came about. you both worked with hillary clinton, and i will not ask. she will run in 2016, but i will s q, if she were to run," -- ask you this, if she were to run, would she have the fire in the belly to be president? guest: she does not have -- she does not do anything she does not have the fire in the belly for. she thought long and hard about whether or not to be secretary of state, and the question she had to eskers of which do i want to do this at the level -- ask herself, do i want to do this at a level that is required? because we have no inside information. i think she will -- guest: we

have no serious information -- inside information. she will take serious time off and give a thought. caller: one quick comment. it seems the media has been used to set up a divide and conquer agenda. i'm wondering how much of your book is focused on restoring the fairness doctrine. it seems the middle class has been squeezed ever since the -- ronald reagan killed it. that would have been right up there with health care and the stimulus package as obama's agenda is concerned. guest: the fairness doctrine is something i have thought about, but i do not know much about it. one of the things we talk about is called the fog machine. it is not really global warming, it is scientists conspiring to take over your life.

the fog machine says the banks did not cause the financial crisis. it was an act in 1977 under jimmy carter that cost the financial crisis. we talk about the middle class wages been stagnant, they say no, they have better cars, cell phone, who would not want that? it clouds things up, and they now that people will get confused and say "what the heck ?" as a result of all of this, there was a gallup poll that shows it has taken a big hit in terms of credibility. it sounds like a stretch. look at penn state and this report. it is another example of how we are not helping ordinary people. you had powerful people that knew bad things were happening to ordinary people and in the

interest of protecting power did not do anything about it. most people that understand this, and i am not one of them, i am trying to understand it, think this libor, this interest rate fears in -- fixing scandal has the opportunity an enormous scandal. his power -- powerful people doing something in their interest that ordinary people are innocent for. but what happened to the roman catholic church. over time, the institution of trust is wreaking havoc. host: market. cleveland, ohio. caller: good morning, the region occasion. one of my favorite dude's during the clinton era. i believe you are a person i can ask a question to that will not hide anything. i feel you are honest.

what about the blitz that mr. joe biden was talking about, the powerful people? guest: the splits? host: yesterday, at the naacp? caller: the computer chip. it is right out of the bible. guest: i am crazy about the vice president, but i do not know enough about your question to give you an answer. host: the closing line in "wall street journal." -- you say voters want leaders to

restore the middle-class. is that happening. guest: when bill clinton went to the people, he said if we have an election that is only about the future of the middle class, there will be pressure to address the problem. host: the caller brought up the vice president. he addressed the naacp. we will hear part of that. another reference to the 1992 campaign. "the washington post," says this was a similar moment for the mitt romney campaign. gee, i think she's a great reporter, but she does not understand what that moment is. you tell people that are going to vote for you something they do not want to hear. if you tell people they're not going to vote for you what they

do not want to hear, it does not matter. guest: people are looking at mitt romney, just as they were looking at bill clinton before the convention, and he said he went to the unions and he was pro-trade. he went to jesse jackson and he said rappers are bad for the country. he spoke to supporters and said i an independent, you can trust me. mitt romney has not done that. is the opposite. he is sending signals that item the base. guest: right. if he wants to have a sister soldier moment, go to the nra. there is gun control but we need. host: here is vice president joe biden yesterday in houston, texas. [video clip] >> it is about the right to vote, because when you have the right to vote, you have the

right to change things. [applause] we, the president, and i and er ic and all of us see a future where those are expanded, not diminished, where racial profiling is a thing of the past. [applause] where access to the ballot is expanded and unencumbered. [applause] where there are no distinctions made on the basis of race or gender in access to housing and lending. [applause] so much more. host: james carville. did you get the feeling the vice president said i want to go down and give that speech? he was having a heck of a time. he is a good speaker. he gets fired up. host: stan greenberg, will be to

take away from the research and the writing? guest: the most important thing is listening to people. you can never lose track of the. you have to listen to ordinary folks. whenever you think about the crisis, this is long term. i trust builders to get it right. host: has your wife read the book? guest: she has not. host: had she read any of your books? guest:, i do not know if she will read. maybe i will try to read it to her while she is sleeping. host: the book is titled "it's the middle class, stupid. stan greenberg, james carville, thank you for being with us. in a couple of minutes, we will turn our attention to the dodd- frank legislation, which continues to be the subject of debate and a legal challenge.

c. boyden gray will be here to talk about it. later, america by the numbers with children and their well- being with edward sondik from the national center for health statistics, and dr. kristin moore from child trends. it is friday. july 13. back in a moment. ♪ >> for of july on c-span radio,

historical supreme court arguments. >> throughout the briefs, they refer to us as being independent, professionally run, the kennedy knows who is helping them and why. we think these are code words for saying we are effective, and because we are effected our speech ought to be choked off. >> saturday, from 1985, the federal election committee verses the national conservative political action committee on c- span radio. on satellite radio, channel 119, and online at c-span radio.org. "washington journal" continues. host: we want to welcome c. boyden gray. thank you for being with us.

let me ask you about dodd-frank and why this legal challenge. guest: it is a complicated bill. it is over two thousand pages. we are not challenging every part of it. we are challenging two parts that represents the highest degree of accountability, the greatest aggregation of power in the hands of bureaucrats where there is no oversight by the congress, the courts or the white house. this is not a good thing for limited government or consumers. host: let me ask about richard cordray, who was appointed by the president and faced senate confirmation, and became a recess appointment. what specifically is his responsibility, and the fact that he is a recess appointment, not approved by the senate, was affect this debt at -- what affect the step ahead on

implementing not -- effected does that have on dodd-frank? guest: he is in charge of the consumer financial protection bureau. the legislation requires that he or she cannot engage in certain functions like will-making, setting out the roads for -- functions like rules-making, setting of the rules of the road for the financial industry and thus he is confirmed by the senate. the courts will have to decide if he can engage in roll-making activities, but he has indicated that he plans to do it on case- by-case enforcement where you do not know that you violated the law until after the fed, and that is not the right way to go about this -- until after the fact, and that is not the right way to go about this. host: we have been talking about

what led to dodd-frank and what led to the financial collapse in 2008. many people are to wall street was to lose, there was not enough regulation, and dodd- frank it to close holes in that area. did wall street play fast and loose with some money? guest: you could argue that, and you could argue there is always a problem with that, but if you step back, the major causes were the government, fannie mae and freddie mac, buying up and encouraging the sale of sub- prime mortgages that were known not to be executable by the owners. the banks then worked with fannie mae and freddie mac to generate these loans. if the government had not been in there as the ultimate buyer, i do not think the banks would

have gotten into it the same way that they did. it was the government that led the fire. and as to the overall picture, it is not clear at all that the consumer bureau is addressing anything that caused the crisis. they are regulating student loan generators, payday lenders. these people had nothing to do with the crisis. they are regulating as our lead plaintiff in the case -- community banks, small banks that had nothing to do with the crisis. so, the crisis was the excuse for a 2000-page eruption of regulatory activity without one word about the central cause, fannie mae and freddie mac.

host: we are talking about the dodd-frank legislation and the case being put forward by c. boyden gray, who served in the george w. bush administration. our phone lines are open. you can join the conversation on our twitter page or send us an e-mail. what is the constitutional argument that you are putting forth that this is not constitutional? guest: our argument is that there is no oversight for this huge bureaucracy. the president, once he appoints the director, will no longer have influence on what the director does, and not have a check on his or her power. the congress has no financial responsibility because the bureau is paid for by the fed, which is beyond congress control with its budget, and

they can do whatever the concern all -- consumer bureau wants to do with the 18 statutes that have been handed to them, implemented by the fed or the trade commission, where several other agencies. -- or several other agencies. so, the whole world is turned upside down, and richard cordray can do anything he wants without any political check on what he does. it is unprecedented. there is no animal like this in the federal government, and if this is a sign of the future, there is no limit to what the government could do. host: one of our viewers says why where did the republicans want the american people to be protected from rogue corporations? guest: we are not trying to be the minute the bureau of together. we are saying it should have some oversight -- eliminate the

bureau altogether. if we are saying it should have some oversight. host: if the senate were to approve richard cordray or someone else, with this goal way? guest: if they had a review authority, if the courts had review authority, if any entity of government of all three branches set up by our founding fathers had any aspect of review, i think the lawsuit would go away, the fed is not the case. host: where are you filing this? guest: it has been filed here in the district. host: chris. good morning. democrats line. caller: the main question about the 2008 financial press is what motivated the banks to write these sub-prime loans the gentleman here is listening to the public, and it is said c- span will not correct them.

the motivation for the banks was they would take these sub-time loans and sell them to wash in -- to wall street. they did that. they wrote new loans, and sold them all of the back door. when they did that, they got rid of all risks, so writing the sub-prime loans was not risky for these lenders because they were going to sell them to wall street and get rid of these sub- prime loans. he took thank you for the call. guest: there is some truth -- host: thank you for the call. guest: there is some truth to what the caller says, that the banks sold these to wall street, but that would has not happened if the government had not bought the mortgages from the banks before they were sold to wall street. if the government, through fannie mae and freddie mac had not been the buyer of first resort, as the entity

responsible for these loans or resell to wall street, this would not have happened. fannie mae and freddie mac had a big partner called countrywide financial. we know how bad that went. they were partners in generating these products. host: mark s. this point. he says the power of the consumer financial protection bureau is the scariest part of dodd-frank with a budget of up to 10% of the fed budget and no oversight. guest: he stated very well. that is the problem. it is money from the fed and it has no oversight. host: it -- is it 10% of the fed budget? >> it is several hundred -- guest: it is several hundred

billion a year. yes. caller: mr. gray, is it true that if we did not do the tarp program the world economy was going to fail, and is it true that you are fighting the people -- you are representing the people against the dodd- frank economy -- legislation? guest: i did not think the whole world economy would fail without tarp, but dodd-frank is separate from that. we represent small banks, community banks, which is different than wall street. this bank and its colleagues are being disadvantaged to their bigger competitors who can

handle all of this legislation with huge teams of lawyers, bureaucrats, accountants, record-keepers. it is no problem for them to fill out the forms. a small bank that lends on reputation in the community, makes character loans because they have dealt with their customers for years, if not generations, they will be put partly out of business because they cannot afford to hire people like me to go on their staff just to hang around, waiting for something to go wrong with the consumer bureau. host: as we approach the top of the hour, we welcome our viewers on the sirius xm radio. our guest this see boyden -- c. boyden gray, who served as lead counsel under george w. bush and is the lead attorney in the case to challenge the constitutionality of the dodd- frank point -- bill.

host: mike. illinois. democrats line. caller: i just want to make the comment that the gentleman extending his beliefs about deregulation and trying to fight regulation -- the reason we got in such a mess was because there were not enough rules, and i do not think we should be fighting any type of regulation, when that is needed to avoid another situation. to my belief, the same thing is going down that was going on before, and i think dodd-frank is a great idea. host: thank you for the call. guest: well, the banking sector that is being viewed as the

cause of all this, and i am saying not really, they were complacent, but the impetus came from the government itself, with fannie mae and freddie mac owned by the government. the most regulated sector of the american economy are the banks. j.p. morgan, for example, where there has been this episode about the trading losses in london -- j.p. morgan has several hundred bureaucrats from the government indicted in its operations, and they could not catch it. they could not catch the crisis in 2008. they could not catch this latest episode. you think having several million bureaucrats working in wall street would make it better? i do not think so. the kind of regulation people let their guard down us