be key in shaping abraham lincoln's views on slavery. tour that plantation today. also the hay day of the steamboat on the ohio river. take a look at the bell of the river. we explore the history and literary life of the cities across america. next week on c-span2 and 3. >> this week, our guest is an tinselly up. -- is antonin scalia. >> yearbook -- why now? >> why now?

because i finished working on it now. >> but why this book? and how important is this book? you have done a bunch in the past. >> i have done a bunch in the past, but this is the first time i have tried to pull together all of the, what you might say, interpretive clauses i consider important -- pastoralism, our regionalism, -- texturalism, originalism, and opposing theories. most important, or maybe most important, and certainly most difficult of all, have gone through the steps that a textualist has to take to

produce a correct reading of the text, the so-called canons of interpretation, which are largely ancient and common sense rules of how language is used. >> could you expect to read this? >> i hope judges will read it. i hope lawyers will read it. i hope law students will read it. and i hope legislators will read it, because it is just as important that legislators know how their language will be interpreted by the courts as it is for the courts to know how they ought to interpret the language. those are the four. >> you pointed out to me before we started that i am not a lawyer. >> maybe the general public. parts of this are understandable to the general public. parts are not.

>> it would give the general reader a window into the world of judges, and of how judges go about deciding on the meaning of enacted tax. maybe most important of all, on what is the true fault line in judges. distinguishing judges, the fault line is not conservative versus liberal. it is, rather, theories of interpretation, which differ greatly from one judge to another, unfortunately. >> i am going to read a long paragraph that you wrote at the end of your preference. one final personal note. york judicial author -- there is a co-author.

>> i thought that was pretty clever, but didn't you? >> it was food for question. >> i worry about people pointing out, leaving up to say -- you say this and that. in your opinion 22 years ago -- i did not review all of them to

make sure every one of them comports with the truth set forth here. i did not want to have to do that. for the future, any judge has to be open to persuasion, to acknowledge his past ignorance, if necesry. i will not swear that i will follow this in the future. but i probably will. >> gotcha. who delivers to you "gotcha, in your life? >> apart from my wife? i would expect them to come principally from academia. many in academia probably -- most of academia does not agree with the theory of interpretation set forth in this book.

>> why? >> why? because the preferred theories that augments the power of the judge, and hence, the power of the law professor. the theory of interpretation set forth here is a very humbling one. it does not leave a whole lot up to the policy discretion of the judge. in fact, it leaves nothing up to his policy discretion. the name of the game is to give the fairest reading to what the people's representatives have enacted. that is what a judge is supposed to do. that is not a congenial approach to someone who wants to do good, who wants to use his office, as it can be used, to do things he thinks can be good for the society. if one has that zeal, one will

not like the approach set forth in this book. >> in the earlier part, which you have labeled the "forward" you have a sentence. you just got accused of being political at the end of the term. >> was accused of being political? i have been out of the country. i do not read that stuff. >> what happens to you, when you hear somebody say, "he is the most political judge ever"? >> sometimes, i speak to groups about judging judges. you cannot judge judges unless you know what they are working with. simply because you like the outcome of an opinion, you say,

"that is a good judge." unless you want the judge is to ignore the text they are dealing with -- we are always dealing with the text. unless you want them to ignore the text, it is unfair to judge us, to say, i like the result, there for that is a good judge." you have to read the opinion and see the statutes they are trying to reconcile. we even say the guy did a terrible job of interpreting the statute. that is an intelligent criticism, but not just because you do not like the way the opinion comes out. anyway, my opinions do not always come out the same way. they are not always "conservative." to the contrary, in some respects, i ought to be the spin-off of the criminal defense bar, because a number of my opinions have defended the

rights of criminal defendants, even though, socially, i am a law and order conservative. but my job is not to say how it ought to be, but to say what the constitution demands. >> we have a group of teachers here this summer, and i asked them what they would ask you. they said they want to know what you would advise teachers -- how you would advise teachers to teach the constitution. >> is our teachers at what level? high school? >> how would you like the constitution taught in high school? >> first of all, i am appalled that americans get out of high school, get out of college, even get out of law school without ever having read the federalist papers. thing number one, if you want to have the proper respect, and in the ballpark -- and indeed awe,

for the constitution, is to realize how brilliant the men were who put that work together. that shines through in the federalist papers. i am always astounded. i can ask a group of law students, how many of you have read the federalist papers? maybe 6%, or something like that. you should not be able to get out of high school without being exposed to what the framers thought they were doing. >> is it really something you should read in high school? the whole thing? >> yes. people read 48, the famous numbers. only if you read the whole thing you realize experience in various systems of government in this country and abroad.

from that experience, they deduced, or they applied, what james madison called, at the convention -- he said, "gentlemen, we are engaged in the new signs of government. nobody had ever tried that before. we should appreciate that. it had never happened before, and it will probably never happen again that a system of government will be devised by a seminar. i mean, a three month long seminar, composed of the political leaders of the entire country. it will not happen again. you can appreciate that, unless you see yourself in the times, including rebuilding -- reading the federalist papers. >> in this book, at the beginning, you list a whole bunch of people that you think.

>> i probably missed some. >> we counted 23 former clerks. we had a former clerk that was here. this was several months ago. i want to run this and get your reaction to it. >> he and i had a very intense argument about some statutory interpretation case, and he took me out and said, "you need to talk to my clerks now." i did. the clerks were all conservative clerks who had marked me as a liberal. i was the christian, and this was the coliseum, and the lions were called in. i had to sit there and be beaten up by these conservatives. then, justice scalia needed to talk to me, so he brought me in. he said, "i am going to give you a job, but you cannot tell my clerks." i had to go out and not fumble for the next two hours before my

plane left. six months later, the clerks came in to him and said, "you need to hire your fourth clark." there were outraged he would have hired someone who was not of the party. >> true story? >> if he says so. it did not make as much of an impression upon me as it did upon him. i will put it that way. >> , the courts have you had? >> four times 26 on the supreme court. and on the court of appeals, 5 times 3. a lot of quarks. >> how often have you hired a clerk who does not think like you? >> infrequently, but not never. the problem is, i do not care what the policy preferences of the clarke are. in fact, other things being equal, i would prefer a clerk

whose instincts, whose policy instincts, are the opposite of mine. but i find it very hard to find a liberal clark who is hard- minded and not wish she washy, who applies rules of law rather than speculating about what the best result would be, and so forth. that is not what i do, and i do not want my clerks to do that. when i have been able to find a -- what should i say? a flint-minded liberals, as in the locker to just saw. if they have been invaluable. they come at the problem, maybe, from the opposite social perspective that i do, and and they are a check upon what a judge always has to worry most about.

that is that instead of applying the law, he is really just applying his own wishes. that is bad judging. >> when i earlier read the line about every lawyer, every citizen concerned about the judiciary -- those are actually the words of french easter. the reason i bring that up -- if you look at frank easterbrook, his brother is gregg easterbrook. why is he your forward writer, and how long have you known him? >> i have known frank a long time. we were colleagues on the faculty at the university of chicago, in the 80's. he went on to be a judge on the seventh circuit, the chief judge of the seventh circuit, ultimately.

he wrote the forward, because if there is another name associated with the theories of that book, it is frank easterbrook. if i had to pick somebody to replace me on the supreme court, it would be frank. he and i tend to see seems -- see things the same, because we are applying the same principles. >> he writes that political scientists, editorial page writers, and cynics often depict judges as doing nothing but writing their preferences into law. >> that is certainly true. >> political scientists and editorial page writers. do you read them? >> to understand all is to forgive all. the have to sell newspapers. they tend to judge judges incorrectly. i doubt whether they read the

opinion carefully, and see what sections of the statute are involved. they have a gut reaction. sometimes, it is a terrible result because that is the terrible statute that congress wrote. the rule for a judge ought to be garbage in, garbage out. if you are dealing with an inane statute, you are duty bound to produce an unnamed result. a lot of those editorials are knee-jerk opposition to the consequence, and not a dispassionate, intelligent assessment of the process of interpretation of the judge went through. >> one of the prior justices of the supreme court -- >> i have to add that if an editorial writer, or even an article writer, did what i have

just recommended, went through and described to the reading public, "the case consisted of this section, and it had to be reconciled with this section -- if he went through that, he would lose his readership in no time. i am not at all surprised that the newspapers tend to evaluate a case simply on the basis of whether the result seems like a good result or not. that is really all the reader is interested in. the reader is not interested in the rest of that stuff. >> let me ask you something along those lines. we prepared for this interview. your people at the publishing house called us all kinds of rules of things which could not ask you. >> you can ask me anything at all. i will not answer a lot of stuff. >> four years ago, we did an interview.

we talk about bush and the gore. i know you do not want to talk about that again. let me show you some video from an interview with perce morgan. he asked to everything we are not supposed to ask you, and you answered. >> did i do that? >> yes, you did that. >> i would have been, in your view, the most contentious. what do most people ask you about? >> i guess one that created the most waves of disagreement was bush forces court. that comes up all the time. my usual response is, "get over it." >> you went on to explain further on that. we did it for years ago. we are used to that. we get that all the time. >> famous cases -- i do not

mind. asked me about bush versus gore. >> i do not want to talk about that. >> i do not either. >> judges have tenure for life. why are you sensitive about it? >> judges ought to express their views on the lot in their opinions. everything i had to say about the real legal issues in bush versus gore was set forth in the opinion that i joined.

beyond that, i'm just either repeating myself or adding things that really were not basis for my decision. i also don't like drawing the courts into the political storm by having their opinions repeatedly pawed over especially the controversial ones. >> why not though? that's democracy isn't it? >> well, i don't mind the people pawing over them between themselves. but i don't think it's the role of the judge to give an account of himself to the people. it's the tradition of common law judges not to comply to press or criticism. i can't tell you how many times wonderful letters i win to the washington post just for my own satisfaction and ripped up and throw them away.

>> you don't send them? >> don't send them. you do not respond to criticism. why is that? it's because what the judge has to say is in the judges opinion. >> your biographer talked about you. here's jone talking about you at the end of this last term. >> at the end of his first term, in 1987, nine minutes of him complaining about where the court had gone in the independent counsel statute. he does have one just about every term. they are always vintage. it was interesting though the idea that he would go outside the cord and complain about president obama's order on young people who had been brought here with their parents illegally and are undocumented and he did get a lot of really negative press on it.

in fact, couple people suggested he should step down. frankly, i think he will still do what he does. >> she's right into that. >> you will be doing what you do. >> that's just going outside of the record stuff. in normal cases which we site newspaper articles, there's no rule that you cannot site any public materials in opinions. only site the record. if it's a factual matter that is up for decision, of course you can only use the matter set forth in the record to determine the facts. but that's not the purpose i used to do at all. we iced the public records all the time. the point i was making there had nothing to do with at factual determination.

people should read the opinion to see whether my use of that so-called nonrecord material was proper or not. >> were you surprised at the reaction after you mentioned president obama in your remarks on the last decision on the arizona decision? when e.j.dion said you ought to resign? >> who? >> the columnist for the washington -- >> i don't know that. i was surprised anyone would have thought the purpose for which i used the president's statement and did not criticize the president's statement. in fact, i said it might be right but the only point i made from it was -- the attorney general argued before us that the only reason the government wasn't enforcing the immigration laws more rigorously was enforcement priorities.

it didn't have enough money and it had to decide who goes first and what not. the point i made was well, even if that was true in my view, a sovereign state ought to be able to supplement the inadequate enforcement with its own fronts if it wants to. then i added, moreover, it has sense come to life that the problem is not over inadequate enforcement funds but rather simply the unwillingness perhaps for good reasons, of the government to enforce the law. for that purpose, i cited the president's statement. which seem to me perfectly fair. i did not say the president's statement was wrong, i said what the attorney general had told us concerning enforcement priorities as the public shows not the sole problem.

>> i'm going to go back to your book page 356 and read you a sentence and have you explain it to we nonlawyers. i knew you were going to do that. >> that's fair. >> the teachers will never forgive me. all right. textualist should object to being called strict constructionists. whether they know it or not, that is an irretrieverrable pejorativist. is that correct? >> i think -- people tell me that pejorative. >> whether they know it or not, i just read it, as it ought to be strict constructionism as opposed to fair reading

contextualism is not a document to be taken seriously. you compare it laying handsen a priest. would you like to explain that? >> the word is used to mean violent attack upon the priest. the first amendment, for example if you are a strict constructionist, you would say that the first amendment does not prohibit congress from censoring handwritten letters because after all, it only protects freedom of speech and of the press. handwritten letters of the speech and press. of course that's not the understood meaning of the first amendment. it protects freedom of expression and those two were the most common modes.

>> can you give us a layman's term of definition of textualist? >> it is someone who believes that the meaning of statue is to be derived exclusively from the text enacted by congress and signed by the president or else repassed over his veto. the text is the sole source that the judge ought to be using in making his judgment. >> the last part of this book is 13 thoughts to be exposed. the first one is the false notion that the spirit of a

statute should prevail over its letter. are you exposing this falsely, is this your idea or is this taught in law school? >> it is said in some supreme court opinions. sometimes the letter of the law is contrary to its spirit and spirit must prevail. that's nonsense. the letter of the law is the letter of the law. that's what we're governed by. we're not governed by some judicial determination of spirit, which could be anything. but the statement comes up often. it is an empowerment of judges. judges can simply say, oh yes, the text can say that but that's contrary to the spirit of the law but we will do whatever we like.

that's not democratic self- government if people can't have their representatives write a statue, which is to be applied as written. >> the 60's of your headings. what do you call those? >> numbers. >> okay, touche. it's got all kinds of things on this page i want to ask you about. the false notion that words should be strictly construed. that's the 60 seconds. >> right. you don't want to construe strictly, you want to construe it reasonably. you don't want to construe it sloppily. what would the ordinary reader of english interpret this statement to mean? unless it's obviously being used in a technical sense. there are some technical expressions in various areas of the law.

>> the other thing i want to ask you about, one of them you mentioned -- one of the justices often in the book, joseph story. he had seven children. >> it's pretty good. >> you've had -- >> last time you had 28 grandchildren and i ask you to name them all. you were offended by that. did you bring the list with you? >> you give me enough time, i'll come up with all of them. >> the joseph story, years ago

back in the 1800s, he was there 33 years. why so much of him in the book? what do you think of him? >> he was one of the greats. he wrotes the first commentary on the constitution of the united states. while he was a sitting justice. he was professor at harvard law school. a great intellectual. maybe the reading intellectuals on the early doubt. >> he taught school. published books the whole time. >> absolutely. judges, have always been part of the intellectual life of the country. unlike in europe where judges are sort of bureaucrats in the ordinary courts, but at least in the more important courts, judges in our common law system have always been part of the intellectual discourse. even in the court of appeals level. people like henry friendly.

>> we had you in 2006, we had our cameras in front of you. [video] >> did the good guy win? did the bad guy win fax -- >> that's not true. unless you believe that every statue ever written produces a sensible result. but you know, the ideal rule for the honest judge is garbage in and garbage out. it's not up to you to decide the garbage. you should be more basically to either praise or criticize judges just because you like the outcome or dislike the outcome. >> i remember that earlier, you said garbage in and garbage out.

you said colorful things over the years. do you know that when you're on the bench when you do that? is that something you do on purpose? >> i don't do it much on the bench. i do it in my opinion sometimes. it makes the opinion more readable and lively, which is a good thing. especially dissents. there's no reason to read a dissent because the dissent is a losing side. you read majority opinion. you write the dissents. i write them mainly for the law students because the dissent will be published in our system. the law professors even when they disagree with the dissent have to present both sides of the case so there can be lively discussions in the case. i publish my dissent. i like to make the dissent clear and readable and interesting and even funny some times. >> how much impact you had on the oral arguments?

>> when i first came on the court, very few questions were asked. i argued before the court once before i became a judge. i got only two questions. i think it was two, maybe three, all of them from byron write. in the whole time i argued. nowadays, wow, the whole process consists of responding to questions from the court. i think the ladder is better. >> did you start it? >> i was the first one who started asking a lot of questions, i guess. that was probably my law school background, my law professor background. then when law professors came on the court, they continued the same roof. bader ginsburg another law professor. >> here is an oral argument from

1999. you're asking the question, the other voice you hear is someone who is making a presentation before the court. >> unless it is itself, a recipient of federal financial assistance it is not covered by title ix. >> i don't quite see how the university get stuck here. as far as the university is concerned, it pursuant to the rules has denied a waiver in circumstances where denial would be perfectly appropriate. as far as what the university has done, the university hasn't discriminated at all. >> if the university -- if the only thing that makes the denial of the waiver bad is the other organization has granted waivers in other universities in other context.

how do you pin this on the university? >> because the university is the covered program that is operating. >> do you recognize that? go don't recognize that. >> how often is that? you said you were one time before the court. paul steps up and in the hector case. >> he's a former solicitor general. former solicitor generals are part what you might call the supreme court bar, the regularly appearing supreme court bar. >> as you know after the healthcare case, and chief justice roberts position on it, a lot of copy right about the

personal antagonism. if you could talk a little more about your perception. was there a leak that came out of the story on that one? >> i wouldn't. >> you wouldn't what? >> i wouldn't talk about it. >> you did though. you said -- >> i responded to a very precise question whether they were slamming doorser what not. that's absolute nonsense. >> are there personal feelings? >> i don't want to talk about it. >> let me do this. the answer you were talking about earlier what you write in your opinions. has there ever been this your past where you make some strong statements personal fallout from that? >> i criticized the opinions of some of my colleagues and we have remained friends just as they have criticized my opinions and we have remained friends. can'tind of a job if you disagree vehemently on the law. you want to find another job.

that's it. >> done. >> done. >> why do you some times have -- anybody that knows, knows you are a jolly fellow. why do you take such an intense when you're dealing with a subject, you look like you're mad? >> with what subject? >> this whole business of the law. you look like you're -- >> i should look mad. i look jolly when talking about a very serious heart felt issue.

one in which what you used to be -- the stuff we set forth in this book is orthodoxy. it was the traditional approach to judging until about the middle of the 20th century. we were trying to bring that back. it's a very significant issue of how judges go about giving effect to democratically enacted legislation and to the democratically ratified constitution. that's a terribly important matter. smile and look jolly when i'm talking about that? i don't know. i think i should look impassioned when i talk about it because i do care passionately about it. i'm not angry. >> what makes you mad? dealing with the law and dealing with the court and dealing with lawyers that come before you, the issues and the press. >> well, the press gets -- if you read it, it gets under your skin.

i don't much read it but, you get used to it. you get used to the fact that you can't respond. we don't respond. so effectively, they can say whatever they want. say whatever you like. we're not going to respond to it. >> near the end of your book, you write however, living constitutionalist, read prohibition into the death penalty of the constitution. four supreme court justices searched during the tenure of your traditional co-author, all flexibility is at an end. it would there have to be no use of america to the death penalty just -- you stepped on two big issues there. >> what you talking about there is the other big theoretical issue raised by the book. one is textualism and we talked about that. the second is originalism.

what that says is the text ought to be given the meaning it had when it was adopted or when it was ratified in the case of the constitution. thus, the words unusual punishment in the 8th amendment should be given the meaning. they were understood to have by the american people who ratified it. it was clear that when that 8th amendment was ratified, the death penalty was not considered to be prohibited. indeed, the death penalty existed in all the states and was the only penalty for a felony. for somebody today to say somehow the american people have prohibited the states by ratifying the constitution, they have prohibited the states from applying the death penalty, i don't know where this comes from.

the american people never voted for any such thing. that's what originalism is. what did this mean when the american people ratified it. now there are some -- the death penalty was a phenomenon that existed at the time. there were other phenomenons that existed at the time and those you can't say what the original meaning. when the electric chair comes in you have to decide whether that was unusual punishment. your starting point, your base point against what you compare these later phenomenons is what was approved at the time the 8th amendment was ratified. so, if the electric chair is less cruel, than hanging, it's not prohibited by the 8th amendment. likewise death by injection which is even less cool than the electric chair and certainly less cool than hanging. >> here is another one of your 13 falsely exposed.

by the way, who wrote that headline? >> that was your name sake, spelled differently brought in. the co-author brian garner. >> who's at smu? >> he is not a law professor. >> its probably the far most lexicographer of law. he has a number of books on legal usage. i respect scholar. he has his own company called law pros, lectureses about the country on writing briefs and on oral argument. >> i have to read the last line here of this bio, he's also a distinguished research professor of law.

>> he's an adjunct. i don't think he's a full time faculty. >> here is one of the falsely exposed. the false notion that lawyers are not qualified to do additional research for our regionalism. >> that is false. some people say, what are you, a historian? >> in 1791 when the bill of rights of ratified, i can do that just as i can decide patent cases. what do i know about patents? i know nothing. i listen to each side. that's what the adversarial system is all about. each side has an interest in bringing forward the best evidence possible. just as i can decide a patent case by -- in fact, it's even easy forker me to evaluate historical evidence than patent evidence.

judges do this all the time. it's the counsel who has to be expert or who have to know where the point the judges for expert advice. i don't see why judges cannot do history. they have to do history all the time. >> you write, there is no historical support what ever for the proposition that any provision in the constitution guaranteed a right to abortion, or to sodomy or assisted suicide. these acts were criminal in all states for two centuries. >> if you're an originalist, it's a silly question to answer whether it's unconstitutional to prohibit them. it obviously wasn't when wherever provision of the constitution relying on was adopted. doesn't mean you have to prohibit them just as it doesn't mean you have to have the death penalty.

these are political questions for the american people to decide. that's what democracy is about. you think abortion should not be prohibited? fine, persuade your fellow citizens. pass a law. you think the opposite, persuade them the other way but don't tell me that the constitution has taken that issue out of democratic choice. it simply hasn't and it's the same for those other issues. death penalty, abortion, sodomy, whatever. persuade your fellow citizens and go either way. >> another historical figure that you quote a lot in your book is jeremy bentham. who is he? >> he's an english law professor who has a lot about the law. >> why should you follow him? >> she's he's a smart fella. so is aristotle.

he also was highly respected by the frame use of our constitution and has been influential on legal theory ever since. >> i remember you disagreeing on a public forum we covered about citing foreign law and then you mentioned a lot of foreign experts. lot of british of course get a lot of our law. >> i don't consider english law foreign law. english law, to the extent, it informs the meaning of the constitution. for example, what is due process of law mean? that phrase in the constitution. abstract, it could mean anything. it means something different to a 12th century frenchman than it does to a 16th century hawaiian.

that's why english law is very relevant to our constitution and to american law. french law is not. italian law is not. >> you're an italian? >> i'm an american but italian dissent. >> my mother was born of an italian immigrant family. >> here's another thing i want you to discuss. these are your words. how did you both write this? who wrote what? >> you know, if my life depended on telling you, some passages, i recall are mine. some are recall are his. most of them they have become so melded. he worked on mine and i worked on his.

>> how did you do it physically? he's not here in town. >> he told me, let's divy these accounts of interpretation and you work on this and i will work on the other one. we did that, i sent him my take on the ones i was assigned and he sent me his on the ones he was assigned. we went back and forth. this thing took 3.5 years to do. >> this probably isn't the fair way to say it. you are a notorious word nitpicker? >> he's as bad as i am. he's a snoot. probably worse. >> you ever come to blows? >> no. he knows stuff about words. for example, one time i complained bryan, people always refer to it as duct tape. it's not duck tape, it's duct tape with a "t."

he would say that's wrong. it was originally devised for the military. i think he said our color and it was called duct tape. only later did it come to be used for air-conditioning. who would want to have that information? only a word nut. bryan is a word nut. >> he got you though? >> he got me. >> let me read this to you. the modern congress sails close to the wind all the time. federal statues today often all but acknowledge their questionable constitutionality with provisions for accelerated traditional review for standing on the part of the members of congress and even for fallback disposition should the primary disposition be held unconstitutional? >> right. >> i want to go back to that original statement.

the modern congress sails close to the wind all the time. >> that followed upon our statement that traditionally, congress is -- you assume the constitutionality of any statute that congress enacts because it assumes that congress would not indeed, if there is even constitutional doubt, you give the congress the benefit of the doubt. in recent years, however, it's more questionable whether congress is really even thinking about the constitutionality and that passage recites the fact that this is evident from the content of their statute. who would have ever thought in the 19th century for example, that congress would pass a statute that says in the event the stuff we just said is unconstitutional, we have this other provision instead. which is which congress has done. makes you wonder, are they really sure this stuff is

constitutional? have they really thought about it? i think that comment was also made in response to the charge of, traditional activism, which is a word that doesn't mean anything really. it just means that the person who uses it doesn't agree with the decision. what is judicial activism? it is certainly not doing actively what judges ought to do. is that judicial activism? i think not. >> number 44, artificial person cannon. >> right. >> now, i wrote down beside that, citizen's united. that's another one that's created a storm.

>> congress shall make no law of bridging of freedom of speech. touchbe you don't want to this, as a person, do you worry at all -- i know you don't -- do you worry at all there's too much money in politics? >> you know i really don't. i forget what the figures are. i think we spend less on our presidential campaigns each year when there's a presidential election than the country spends on cosmetics. >> what about that the unusual influence? people are worried that the corporations now can buy -- >> i think this is a real -- if you believe that, we ought to go back to monarchy that people are such sheep that they just swallow whatever they see on television or read in the newspapers.

the premise of democracy is that people are intelligent and can discern the truth from the false. at least when as the campaign laws require, you know who is speaking. you can't speak anonymously. you have to say, you know, identify the people that -- >> but we don't know who's speaking right now. >> you know the organization is speaking. >> not necessarily. you know they don't have to -- some of the way the money is being raised we will know. >> you will never know who is contributing with the organization is speaking? >> that's all you need to know? >> well, the press can find out who's hiding behind what. that's not hard -- anyway, the premise is freedom of speech. the more speech the better. i cannot understand why -- as far as citizen's united, it was not novel.

it reversed an opinion eight years earlier that had changed the law from what the law had been in buckley versus filalo. >> all right, we're out of time. i'm going to ask you on camera but i will do it now. television in the court. >> television in the court. >> the reason i bring it up is that congress has has resolutions they never passed and ordered courts on division. why are you so against it? >> when i first joined the court i was for it and switched. aim against it because i do not believe as the proponents of

division in the court assert that the purpose of televising our hearing will be to educate the american people. that's not what it will end up doing. if i really thought it would educate the american people, i would be all for it. if the american people sat down and watched our proceedings gavel to gavel, they will never again ask. you know, justice scalia why do you have to be a lawyer to be on supreme court. if you know what i real business is, if you know that we're not usually contemplating their naval, that's not what we're doing. we're usually dealing with the revenue code and all sorts of dumb stuff that only a lawyer could understand and programs get interested in. if the american people saw all of that, they would be educated but they wouldn't see all that. but most of the american people would see would be 30 second, 15 second takeouts from our

argument and those takeouts would not be characteristic of what we do. >> now, what we see is an article in the newspaper that's out of context what you say -- >> that's fine but people read that and say it's an article in the newspaper and the guy maybe lying or he maybe misinformed. but somehow when you see it live, an excerpt pulled out of an entire when you see it live, it has a much greater impact. i am sure if we miseducate the american people -- >> we get the audio at the end of the week. >> but the audio is not of interest to the 15 second takeout people. it doesn't have that kind of

impact. >> but the first amendment takeouts are not good. we can't have those 15 second sound bites. >> first amendment has nothing to do with whether we have takeouts. >> i just said that you're a big advocate of the first amendment. >> i am indeed and it doesn't require us to tv our proceedings. >> all right, last question. >> you got to be logical. >> of course. do you like this job and do you ever intend on retiring? >> i'm sure i will retire some day. job doesn't last long. it's only a lifetime job. that's all. >> what will be the trigger for you? did you think you'd stay this long? >> no, i didn't. i thought i'd get out as soon as i could retire at full pension. i've been working for nothing