students is a costly intervention. if they spend a full year as a result of being retained, we need to have an additional year of funding for that education. had also requires that students remain in school and forego a year before entering the labour market. critics also say there are not benefits for students who are retained that would offset those costs. they argued students would be harmed by the trauma of being retained by reduced expectations of a part of parents and educations and by that cost of adjusting to a new peer group. if we look at the volume of published research, then we come to a clear conclusion. there is a mass of literature of the studies showing retain

students achieve at lower levels and have worse social emotional outcomes than similar students who are promoted. a person from the university of colorado in 1989 said it would be difficult to find another practice on which the evidence is so unequivocably negative. t.d. extents -- to the extent that the studies suffer from a common flaw, a consistency of the findings should not reduce their ability. the challenge is to separate the effects of retention from the effects of other differences between students that led them to be retained in the first place. the most common approach to studying this question is to find students who are retained and compare their outcomes to similar stance in terms of

democrat rex, prior achievement, who happened to be promoted. the likelihood of selection bias when making these comparisons make these studies and unreliable. to give two examples of what will go wrong, it could they -- it could be educators note that those scores reflect those achievements rather than the fact that the students had a bad day on the day of the test. if that is the case, retain students will be more likely to have bad outcomes. more involved parents may be more likely to appeal a decision. the nice thing about promotion policies, whatever their merits, is they provide researchers with the opportunity to provide much more evidence on the causal defects on students' outcomes. they create a situation where if you have students that are

similar in terms of reading performance -- some are above the promotion costs, some are below, they are exposed to a different treatment. some or all distance below will be retained, some or all above will be promoted. we can follow the outcomes of these groups performing a discontinuities evaluation that provides strong ability to draw causal inferences about policy defects. this approach was pioneered in chicago public schools, a policy in place in the 1990's, and if has been used in a series of studies conducted in the state of florida over the past several years. before the policy has been the most far-reaching, the first most active statewide promotion policy, it emerges as a model

for states that have enacted policies in recent years. evidence on its design and impact on students is of considerable interest. what has gone on in florida? the state has required a third- graders scored on the lowest level be retained. i put required --require it may not be exactly the right word because there are a variety of exemptions mentioned in the policy. for example, and the english proficiency students who have received less than two years of instruction are accepted as are most categories of special education students. students have the ability to demonstrate proficiency on and approved standardized test. they can also do this under a portfolio that is aligned to the content standards. i think calling the policy test-

based promotion is a misnomer. it would be more accurate to say a little test score changes the default decision made for the student such that in an affirmative case needs to be made they are ready to be promoted to the fourth grade. the policy does not require a be retained. it requires the receive additional services during their retention year, be given the opportunity to attend a summer reading cap, and to receive intensive reading interventions during that retention year. that means when we study evidence on the defects of the program on retained students, those studies will reflect the full package, not just retention itself, but the additional requirements. despite the exemptions i mentioned and the fact that roughly half of low-performing third-graders are given exemptions, this amounted to a

major change in the approach to early great retention in florida. the number of great 3 since increased to nearly 22,000 was implemented in 2003. that is just shy of 14% of third-graders in florida who are retained in 2003. that number has fallen significantly in subsequent years, with most of the reduction reflecting a reduction in number of students failing to meet the promotion cut off. while it is difficult to attribute that to the incentives after it to the policy, it is consistent with a policy educators and students and in florida have responded to the presence of the policy by improving their performance. what happens to students in florida when they are retained? the most recent research on a question and timmons the inicy's effects on students

2003 for six subsequent years. it shows there are substantial short-term achievement gains in reading and math among retain students compared to their peers when they are tested at the same age. after two years after the initial retention decision, he retained students will be in the fourth grade, and most of the promoted students will be in the fifth grade. to compare their performance when tested at the same age, the retain students outperform their promoted peers but almost half of the standard deviation in reading and about half that much in math. this amounts to more than a grade level equivalent in reading and half of that and at -- half of that amount in math. these achievement in sex fade out correct -- these achievement

defects become significantly insignificant in five years. this is a common pattern in many terventions that have been shown to have substantial positive and direct effects on outcomes.long-term you can expect to see long term positive effects because retain students still outperforming their promoted peers in but reading and math when tested at the same grade level. if we -- rather than compare students at the same age, at the grade level, we find it retained students doing much better than their promoted peers. another interesting consequence of the fort a policy that has

emerged is there is clear evidence that retain students are less likely to be retained in later years. as a result of this, after five years, the retained students are only .7 grade levels behind their promoted peers despite the fact that it would put them a full grade level of behind. students are much less likely to be retained in the third grade after the first year. those effects continue for several years after the initial retention decision. this means one of the key consequences of the floor of the policy was to expedite the retention of many students who would otherwise have been retained in later years when those decisions were made purely at the discretion of local educators. what does this mean for policy?

these results from florida paint an encouraging picture, more than that which is available in the dominant observational literature on the topic, and it needs a few things for policy. this is just too good knowledge that test-based promotion policies are not been presented by anyone on the paula -- on the panel today as a silver-bullet solution, that the only thing we need to do to redress this, we need comprehensive strategies. improving early grade reading skills is a national priority what that will require states to a number of things, including insuring at-risk skins have access to high-quality preschool programs, that they identify identification systems, and that they improve the general quality of instruction in the early grades. my research suggests districts

are likely to take their least effective teachers and their least experienced teachers and place them in grades k through 2 perhaps by the presence of state testing systems in higher grades. that is the type of pattern that will undermine efforts to address this situation. test-based promotion policies are no substitute for that kind of comprehensive strategy to reduce the number of struggling readers. test-based promotion policies can be useful component of such a comprehensive strategy. to the extent states want to go in this direction, they should keep in mind these policies are most likely to succeed when accompanied by requirements for additional research-based reading instruction and adequate funding. the florida the facts we have observed reflect the complete

package -- before the effect we have observed reflect the complete action -- package, and common sense suggests retention should not imply an exact replication of what came before. try something different promotion policies also need to balance the desire educators to draw on local knowledge of makents' abilities to decisions they think are in the best interest of the students. the research in florida suggests retention can be useful more often than local educatioors think is the case, but some measure of exceptions need to be included in thinking about these policies. we do not know the right way to handle that situation yet. because what kind of research,

we need to continue to study the effects of these policies on the outcome of students as well as on the quality of instruction available to all curly-grade students. oftentimes discussions focus is on their consequences for retain students. that is of great interest. we need to understand what is happening to the broader systems. thank you for your attention and i look forward to the discussion. [applause] >> the panel will cut up, and without a break, we will proceed. , ande panel will come uppe without a break, we will proceed.

i want you to know that the researchers at perkins are working on a machine so that when the panelists come up the machine will stick their microphone on their lapel. we will save three minutes for discussion. be ready for that. we have a great panel. people have their own views who have worked on this issue. i am pleased we are able to get the quality of people we have. hast is karen schimke, whos played a huge world in elementary school policy, and she is author of a terrific brief on literacy policies.

next we have ross white hearst who is -- russ oakhurst. in a previous life, he did research on reading. another appropriate reason for having him on the panel. then we have shane jimerson, a precursor -- a professor at the university of california at santa barbara. then finally, mary laura bragg, the director of the state foundation of excellence in education. florida has done so much in this area, so we are glad she could be part of this panel. our format is that each speaker will have a minutes for an opening statement, and then i will ask questions and then the audience will ask some

questions. >> good morning. i was anticipating getting ready for this discussion and was reminded by my experience which reading proficiency. my sister and i were in the first grade in western nebraska and i do not think our teacher understood there were two of us. one night my mom pulled out a book and said we are on to read tonight. she handed me the book, and i suspect it was a particular book of that era. then she handed it the book to carolyn and she looked at the book and said, i do not read. i said i read for her. that was the end of carolyn's ternate to non proficiency in reading. my mother was as concerned as

any parent would be, and as all the states are, about having students read proficiently by the end of third grade. frankly, in the churning up to the end of third grade, move it along in the proficiency pathways. i think we are aware of what happens to kids who are not reading proficiently, been four times more likely than their peers to drop out at the end of high school. it is clear and a world where we need well-prepared workers that proficiency is key. is state's concern relevant because we're in the air of no child, because we are in the era of no child left behind, said they are trying to create a sense of urgency that in reading professes the state mean business. while the conversation is around retention, states had not had a

simple strategy, but have a package of comprehensive well- conducted strategies all of which are critical if we are going to be serious about third- grade reading proficiency. talking about retention is a shorthand way of talking about the whole package. we heard about some of the research said about retention. much of the research does not back it out. opinions are mixed. in looking at several research reviews come might take is there are differences in which groups of kids, differences at which point the research is done, and for a non researcher like a myself, it is difficult to sort through all of this stuff and

all the white noise and say what is this telling us? some research suggests children that repeat improved their proficiency while others suggest it does not make much difference. in an article in 2007, it was reported there is no short-term benefit. students of poverty and color are disproportionately represented. the question that has been raised are questions that have been in everybody's consideration. children of color who are in low economic status are disproportionately represented among retained students. likewise, the question of cost and how much it costs to have a year of retention, costs to the school district and later when there is the late entry into the

workforce. one of the thoughts i had when states think about how they should proceed once i began to wonder whether children who are retained to have a higher possibility of being bullied or being a bully. i found one study, and it talked about not only retained children, but over-aged children, children were entry into kindergarten is delayed. they found a fare difference between the potential for bullying and being victims. it is an interesting article that appears in the journal of applied school psychology. another potential hidden cost -- i think i called the offers to find out if there were other

studies, and there were not. were they going to do any or put they would love to. it was about money, which is again a common experience. great retention -- grade retention is far more costly than providing early intervention that is a critical and is a part of states' strategy. our emphasis has been on early and vacation and intervention. when we talk about early at dedication, we talk about in kindergarten, may be first or second grade, we would talk about it in pre k, so we would be saying, and those of us who have been working for a long time no and that pre k classroom they know what child is going to be a problem.

rather they know because they can see how the child manages the rest of their functions, how they manage waiting their turn, sitting still, being a part of that discussion, working with other kids. we're putting out the fourth in a series of documents in the next -- and it will focus on what state policy should be about as a road map. it will have two components, a section on systems and classroom and school activities. system oversight, ongoing assessment of children and classrooms, and immediate intervention. the peace having to do with classrooms and schools will look at a pulp capacity, teachers, principals and superintendents, what they have to be like, what they have to do to provide the

in charge shall atmosphere kids me. the second is a language and content-rich curriculum, and finally a partnership for families. we could spend this entire debate talking about the role of families as decisions are made about third-grade reading proficiency. we take this concern that states have and schools and families have very seriously. states are making -- are taking action on this, and we think that is appropriate. the most important thing is this is about early comprehensive interlocking strategies. no single strategy could lead to that kind of these outcomes by themselves. thank you. >> thank you. a very nice. [applause] russ whitehurst.

>> i'm pleased to be here. this is a topic that is important to me. i want to congratulate marty we st on bringing a rigorous piece of research to this debate. it raises the law level of evidence that is relevant to what we are talking about. i could spend my minutes talking about research methodology, but i will avoid that temptation. >> good decision. >> and try to kick it up a notch. what is this debate about? let's start with the fact that 25% of youth in this country do not graduate from high school. let me describe to you a conversation i overheard a few years ago. it was a young woman who had graduated with honors from high

school in the district of columbia. she had gone to salisbury state college, and she was dropping out. i heard someone talking to her, why are you dropping out? i cannot pass the course is there. -- the courses there. 25% of students did not have the skills to graduate. we have a lot of kids that graduate with a meaningless credential that does not signify that they have the skills ready for further education, so we have a system that is massively failing. what are we to do about that? are we to prevent students socially all the way to the system, or are we to get college degrees based on social promotion, bubecause people who have college diplomas at do better? i think not. the question is when is the

system to be made accountable for getting a stint the skills that they need to succeed -- a student the skills that they need to succeed in life? all the issues on social promotion has focused on a particular cohort of students who are affected by the policy. you saw that in marty's presentation of research today. you will see that in a larger literature. for students who are retained, what is the consequence the next year and the year after? that is an important question. i think the larger question is what is the effect on the system as a result of retaining those students? imagine for a moment the ira's function in auditing your taxes. -- the irs function in auditing your taxes.

we hear about that in the news, offshore bank accounts. a few people are caught, they have to pay a lot of back taxes, front-page stories about it. almost surely the fact that the people of those who had offshore accounts are talking to their accountants and backing off of that tax strategy. imagine enforcement of driving while intoxicated laws, and you heard on july for the police will be out in force, and if you are caught you are in serious trouble. if you are caught drunk driving, there might be a certain consequence. the real question is what is the effect on the people who are exposed through observation to this policy. there are hits and a slide marty

put up in the policy brief that the school systems in texas and parents and kids are responding to this policy as you and i would if we knew we were doing something that was likely to having a deep impact. as they are doing better, children are less likely to fail the third grade exam than they were in the past. we do not know if the florida policy is causally connected to that, but there is a suggested that it might be. i think we need to research that looks not only at the impact on the treatment, but the impact on those who are coming along next come the impact on the whole system on its ability to provide quality preparation in learning to read. i will save one of the things i learned from doing work in this area as a researcher and as a federal official for many years is that we do not know it yet how to accomplish this task

well. if you look at reading scores, they have been in essentially flat for 20 years. if you look at studies that examine the impact of accountability systems, you will see sizable impacts on math, suggesting once people and schools and teachers are accountable for results in math, they do things and know how to get kids better, you find little or no defects on reading. you take the federal reading first intervention which was a massive attempt to inject scientific-paced instruction in the reading in the beginning grades and a large federal of i wish of that, for which i was a responsible, found no impact on reading skills. we can expect some impact from well-implemented school

retention policies, coupled with early identification and better intervention, but i would say we have a ways to go in understanding how to take children who start school -- i mean kindergarten or even pre kk -- essentially behind in the skills that predict later reading, vocabulary, and letter and sound recognition. we still cannot understand well how to engineer curriculum and provide instructions regularly and predictably going to get those children on grade level by the end of third grade. my view of retention is it is an important pressure point on the system. and convinced it can produce at least short-term positive benefits for kids if part of a broader intervention policy. i also think we have a ways to

go in terms of understanding how to get this task accomplished. what we have learned from presentations today is a piece of an important puzzle that we got to solve in the nation's interest as soon as possible. thank you. >> thank you. [applause] thank you so much for coming all the way to calif -- from california. >> thank you. i will express and share thanks to the brookings institute for inviting me to participate. the emphasis is on what is best for kids, and i say that because i spent my car rear investigating for what is best for kids. i want to begin with that as a preface. by show of hands, how many of us

are engaged in scholarships to help children learn at school? how many of you are engaged in scholarship? good. how many are directly involved at the school level of developing policies to help children learn i got some folks here. fantastic. how many of us are involved with educating children in school at least once a week? fantastic. there are many others that come from various backgrounds and have motivations to be here. for the sake of voting, how many are going to refuse to put the matter what questions i asked? [laughter] a trick question. i appreciate your honesty. i am here today as i am compelled to continue to advocate for children to emphasize the importance of using science to in for policy and practice. this is to advance all the social and cognitive competence

of children. during the past 20 years i have reviewed over 100 studies examining great retention. this includes all available published studies as well as reports and projects which are not published in journals or books. in addition to hundreds of studies regarding specific intervention strategies, i have conducted numerous investigations and studies and analysis related as well as published analysis of studies examining outcomes associated with great retention. i share these comments i have prepared based on the collective of these experiences. because each of us on the panel had only about 480 seconds, i will make three brief points for your further consideration. the question -- how many of you have read at least five of the

previous analyses? how many of you have been immersed in this? fantastic. the first point, the empirical evidence failed to support the effectiveness of great retention. among over 1000 analysis of achievement outcomes during the past 100 years, there are few that reveal significant positive effects associated with great attention. and how that provided, you see the summary of defect size is, and we do not have time to go into that. none of those results and any of those analyses reveal a significant positive effect. you can look at that. i am not making this up. short-term gains during the repeated year and possibly the following year are occasionally documented.

term effects two middle school and high-school are either neutral or deleterious. grade pretension has emerged as one of the most powerful predictors of high-school dropouts. in addition, part of the discussion is to focus on reading and retention. it is notable if you look at the hand out the negative effect on reading is the highest on two analysis detailed and handout. over 1000 analyses captured, a defects on reading border significance in the sense you in terms ofof .5, the defect size. related to this first point regarding the lack of evidence, the recent analyses of the florida context conflate great othertion hapand

interventions. summer school, intensive reading, and high-quality teachers, as well as other processes that are part of that florida test promotion legislation. these processes are linked to effective strategies. some of these have been mentioned, assessment, parent involvement, and whereas other scholars have completed analysis to compare the effects of summer school and retention when used listing students, for instance in chicago, each of the analyses that i have reviewed addressing before the context have not. why is this important? because the previous analyses that did include both revealed the summer school he'll put a fatal defect whereas the retention did not. this idea of coupling them and making the case for retention is not well founded within the literature.

hence, the statement that the analyses of the florida context conflate great retention. as related to the first point, the legislation refers to a comprehensive program for student progression. this is the section 1,008.25. copper has a programs for students prevention, where as many of the components include it in this program are based and laudable. the retention component not indicated pipit is anyone familiar with the 2009 book that reviews 800 analyses and includes a rank order of 138 specific factors associated with student achievement? anyone? ok. it includes actors at multiple levels come soon, home, teaching, curriculum, school. this the book. a comprehensive review reveals five factors associated with negative e fax.

-- the fax. -- effects. retention is placed at 136 of the 138, followed by -- 137, television, are associated with deleterious effects on student achievement. considering research during the past 100 years, evidence indicates we must move beyond great retention and social promotion. by show of hands, how many of you are aware of supporting interventions to help children learn at school to promote reading, math, social skills? fantastic. the second point, there are numerous studies that document effective intervention facilitating development in areas such as reading, math, behavior, and adjustment.

education professionals must focus on interventions that build upon the strengths of students and target their needs. attending to the empirical evidence in forming part of the intervention with specific challenges within specific contexts. these include individual, classroom, and school-district level strategies, and you can see the handout, i have listed several interventions in summer school and events as some of the examples. how many of you are confident that currently established policies will promote student learning and success at school? one person, very good. the third point is policies that emphasize specific evidence-based intervention to promote success of students are a central to meet achievement

standards. as secretary of edgett ricky crist a secretary of education said ensuring that students have the opportunity and assistance they need to meet the challenging standards in the a years prior to that decision being made. it is imperative policy makers focused on the questions. the question is not to retain or not to retain. the question is not to retain or promote. the question is how to promote the social and cognitive competence of this dude. specific, given the individual considerations, upon a identifying individual needs, what specific evidence-based strategies will be implemented in an effort to redress needs and to facilitate the development and success of this do? as i highlighted today, considering the, the evidence,

it is imperative we move beyond grade retention, social promotion, instead, we must implement policies predicated on the empirical evidence linked promoted learning outcomes. thank you for participating and considering these three points. [applause] >> thank you. other than that, how did you like the policy brief? [laughter] mary laura bragg. >> i cannot get an introduction? [laughter] >> i already introduced you. what do you want me to say? mary laura bragg, a famous person from florida. >> i am the cleanup hitter. thank you for giving me the opportunity to be a part of this discussion. i was the person responsible for the implementing the policy in florida.

i have witnessed firsthand the vacant stare of a 10th-grader when that student is asked to read out bloud. i have been a recipient of victims of social promotion. the foundation for education has worked for many of the states that have in the past year worked to tackle this problem of pre-k-3 reading. winking dropouts to reading skills was not around och when the governor began to craft this policy. we did craft this iran research that existed in the early 2000's. 70 per fight -- 75% would continue to struggle, that 80% of kids and identified with a

disability are struggling readers because they have not learned how to read, and the work that was published in the 2000 national reading panel report. the policy we created is simple. the law requires prevention and intervention k through 3, and additional intervention for retained third-graders. three basic parts. schools must begin notifying parents in kindergarten if their child has a reading deficiency and is at risk of retention in the third grade. schools must build individual plants for the students and at removing that deficiency, and we know this in the first 30 days of kindergarten. third-graders in florida scored the lowest level in our state

tests are retained. one of the things i would point out from the breeze is that any student takes the state test is subject to the policy. there are a significant number of students with disabilities who are subject to the policy. the of only ones exempted r f with the only ones who are exempted do not take the test. our approach worked. in the 40 years i was in charge of a policy -- in the four years i was in charge of the policy, i saw a sea change. i will give examples of the impact on human behavior. before we enacted this policy, the assessment had a pot of $2 million, and we had a lot of students and florida, for

reading diagnostic assessments. districts could purchase and receive those tests for free. it was a state appropriation. every year, maybe 1/4 of that money was drawn down in the first two years of that policy. it was gone by the the september. we got requests from districts for brandon professional development in reading in the first two years. their quest for 10 full. they were specific. we want it on a debt-driven instruction. -- data-driven instruction. the number of calls we got asking for help and asking how they can help skyrocketed.

the data included in your packet shows the impact of the policy. retentions increased at first, but they declined because the number of students reading at the lowest level on our state tests declined. the other thing i would like to show -- there is a chart in your handout -- retention in kindergarten, first, and second grade increase because it was a k-3 policy. our goal was not retention. our goal was the strong initial instruction in grades k through 3 and then intervention as a way to stop retention, but a last resort of retention the goal. when a principal realizes he has for years to ensure a child is ready to move on to fourth grade and the parent of the

children will know enough in the first 30 days of kindergarten that the child has a reading efficiency, we saw the best teachers in a school moved to k, 1, and 2. the sea change -- is a shame to me that the threat of retention is what got elementary schools doing what their primary focus is, which is to teach kids how to read to. in 2011 ourthe las policy is still working. that chart is broken down into subgroups, at every subgroup outperforms the national average. the number of third-graders

scoring at the lowest level has declined by 41%. the percentage of minority students scoring at the level has declined by 37% and 46%, respectively. we looked at 300 our lowest- performance title one of schools and we found the percentage of third-graders identified with specific learning disabilities which cut in half. the percentage of first-graders who were identified with specific learning disabilities were cut by 75%. that is huge. if you find your priorities first to get -- would say we have spent time talking about cost of retention and nothing about the cost of dropouts and the cost the country in health care lost earnings and students

who drop out -- that is an important point, and if you find the your priorities first, then you can prevent the additional cost of retention in later grades. so thank you. >> thanks. [laughter] -- [applause] i heard there people in the audience that would like to be gone by lunch, so we will deal with these in an expeditious fashion. we will deal with the issue about when the witch doctors disagree, which is what you have just seen. the recent study from the department of education says there is a disproportionate impact on blacks and hispanics. if you adjust for achievement scores come out the impact disappears. you have more black and hispanic if you match, but

for test performance, it is those who have the lowest test performance who are retained. does anybody agree with that, or is their average -- or is there other evidence? >> i am not sure we can agree with everything you have said. black and hispanic kids are more likely to be retained at the national level. we cannot take that same data and to the type of adjustment for achievement that you have mentioned. what we can do is look in florida to what has happened to black and hispanic students, where you see similar patterns, but if you control for their reading scores, they are likely to be less likely to be retained.

you do not see it, but i am not sure we can establish that as a fact on a national basis. >> does anybody think this is racially disproportionate and unfairly so? >> in terms of why it happens or that it happens? .> let's leave out why if it unfairly discriminates a certain group, if the policy were to unfairly retained kids on the basis other than something risible like a test score, then we should be opposed of a policy. the first thing we should establish is, is there evidence that the policy is unfair to any groups? >> when you say unfair, that is a loaded question, but is it

disproportionately used? yes. are we exposing a certain underrepresented disadvantaged population of our youth to this particular effective strategy? yes, that is the answer. the answer is yes because you think the policy hurts everybody who is subjected to that policy? >> i did not say that. when we look at population statistics, the analyses we have completed, there have been some that have followed individuals launch a tripoli. in general i about interventions, which is the same thing if you do a reading intervention. you are discerning effects based on their population sussex. i do not want to play put into a position where i am --

>> i meant was that this policy according to your review, not just you? retention in general had some harmful effects, not that it harms every single kid. , on average, even if you have more black and hispanics subject it to the policies, which is the case -- that is true -- and because the policy does not help them at hertz some kids, it is likely to have a may be the impact on that. that is your position? >> yes. >> but that is not because anybody intends for more black and hispanic kids to be hurt in some way. it is because they made a mistake about the judgment of the effectiveness of the policy. we come back to the same question about what the evidence shows.

the assessment plan -- i am aware of situations where assessments are lousy. how serious is the assessment problem here? can we identify kids who did not read well, can we identify kids who read well? artest useful? even if we have good tests, not necessarily everybody uses them. do we need to caution states about the purchase they take, and i assume it would not just the tests, but other elements, like teacher evaluations, or a portfolio of evidence? how big the problem is the assessment here? >> it is not a problem. there are a variety of tests of reading skills. i can show correlations between reading skills at the end of first grade and 10th-grade performance. florida has a good assessment

system. among the best in this area. when you talk about the classification of individual students and whether a student just on one side of the promotion versus retention line has been reliably and identified, that is a different issue. there is error crown the cut point. if the assessments are good and they can discriminate between good readers and poor readers -- and let me say in response, that the discrimination here is the provision of education to minority and disadvantaged kids that is of low quality and leaves them damaged for life. we need to focus on that as the discrimination that we all should be ashamed of and do something out. >> assessments in first grade

are different than assets in kindergarten or in prekindergarten. one of the things in talking to a college who is an expert in assessments, he highlighted the fact that it is not which assessments are used, but when they are given and where they are given. assessments to very young shirt and that are given before they have had a chance to acclimate the environment, that is to air early it are going to be blessed -- less reliable. bishop and identify kids with needs, but it may waieight it down. >> there is agreement that states could decide a reasonable way to identify poor readers. leaving aside the issue of

retention, we should identify them and we should have a program for them. >> one comment -- and thinking, florida as a strong assessment. , theey is the next step need for good professional talent for teachers to understand what the date that around that student shows and how to attack that deficiency that is there. that is key, because assessment by itself is not going to get you anywhere. >> a lot of people are agreeing that tests that identify poor reader is not necessarily a diagnostic test, not necessarily useful to plan a program intervention for a kid. we can identify poor readers if we had a special treatment for them. i suspect it might be an issue in some cases because states

might not do it exactly right. final question, this is one about which the oscar -- the witch doctors. we should try to reach some resolution on this. we have a stark difference here. shane says you should not retain. the evidence it presumes is -- it possesses is nil. the policy brief and marty claims that the florida evidence shows it can be part of a plan. before i ask you the question, i want to see if we can reach some kind of agreement. we are in agreement that if a system wants to attack this problem of reading, they need a multiple-part strategy, and

should include preschool education, diagnosis, lots of extra reading. there is a lot of agreement about how to do this pripet the position of the brief is that part of that multiple parts plant that retention makes sense. shane how can we resolve this difference for an audience of people who is not going to read 300, 400, 500 studies? researchers do not agree, so what is a policymaker supposed to do? what is an answer? >> the non my feet, so this may not work out. -- i am thinking on my feet, so this may not work out. coronary bypass surgery is strongly negatively predictive of health banoutcomes.

my guess is that still holds true even if you match the people you are comparing based on their cholesterol level, some measure of their hearts strength, if you did an analysis of that relationship, it might even be 136 out of 138 of the relationships we can study. that does not mean -- that means you should do everything possible to avoid a situation in which you might use coronary bypass surgery. that does not tell you that for those people exposed to it, it causes their worst health outcomes. in order to answer that question, we would have to set up some sort of the situation

where researcher could take people who are equally likely to be exposed to the intervention, some of which get it and some of which do not. we can not randomly assigned students to be retaining or not to be retained. we can take advantage of the situation that i discussed to compare students who are exactly similar, save for the fact they scored one. differently on the state reading test. that provides unusually strong opportunities to make inferences. none of the other research in this study comes anywhere close to that level of rigor. we should pay attention to the highest quality evidence, which include studies of chicago and florida and not turn to the larger and outdated literature.

the only other point i would make is that -- t >> shane, respond. >> there are a lot of elements. with all due respect, the idea that we are going to embrace the analysis, which the articles relative to the reports generated have gone much for it -- for there acknowledging the fact that it is not looking at retention -- we refer to the treatment under florida's policy as retention. understanding that it is completed with so many other elements. it is shameful to pretend that it is systematically examining retention. i acknowledge and embrace --

they are not experimental design, which we both know is not going to happen. i applaud the initiative and is not to say that -- not to put him on the spot, i applaud the initiative of those who have utilized the regression this continuity analysis in an effort to obtain samples that are able to be examined subsequently. however, i take issue with the ongoing rhetoric about isolating causal factor and then suggesting a links to retention. it simply does not. it is too strident, too myopic, and it is does not reflect what

is happening. i am not suggesting that it is my research, my particular studies that are revealing this. i suggest we look at the collective of all the be assorted strategists, of which there are many. the chicago does not reveal what you found in their florida context because they can plug in the effects for summer school. using the same analysis, with the exception that the florida context -- i am much more ambivalent about the need for further research. i am to the point where, how about we attend to the last 100 years of research?

we have not historically been attending to it. i am not willing to dismiss that literature. it is very multi disciplinary in nature. an array of statistical procedures. we always need to look forward, always need to look at those analyses being done. those are some of the key elements i believe distinguish -- >> i am going to give russell the last word. >> one of the things i learned as the director of the institute of education sciences is pay no attention to the data analysis. garbage in is garbage out. look at the met logical quality of particular studies and determine what can be reasonably concluded from them.

frankly, 90% of the research and education that has been conducted over the past 100 years does not meet the mythological standard -- methodological standard. the strongest research. what we can conclude is that the florida policy, which had many elements, at least for a few years a positive impact on kids in florida and probably a systemic impact on the behavior of the system and people responsible for getting kids to learn. whether a policy with the same label would have a similar

effect in north carolina, i do not know. that is why we need additional research and research -- it is very hard to make conclusions based on 100 years of research about what is likely to be the impact of a particular policy that has seven different elements. again, there are always different -- they're always differences among researchers. it is hard to resolve those differences unless you just believe me. [laughter] >> let me see if i can summarize. you cannot single out any element of the florida policy and say, this caused the effect. it is the whole thing. >> it is possible, it has not been done.

>> i am sure the audience is washington know what kind of resolution -- from the florida study, we could not conclude, ok? we cannot conclude that grade retention is an effective policy. what we can conclude is that grade retention as part of a broader policy can have positive effects. the whole thing taken together. correct? >> i would take the position that if you had implemented the reading interventions and such without the retention policy, based on historical evidence looking at the effectiveness of direct reading construction, you would deal does the facts? >> we will never be able to answer that question. unless you are dying, that we have to get to the audience.

>> i am dying. the best meta analysis is going to document which studies have high-quality based on what parameters for what has been done you reveal a lot of studies and you end up identifying what are their control parameters. each of the high quality analysis i have seen reports that information in addition to be a facts. you would need to be able to look at that level of detail. we cannot look at a single study in isolation. we ought to be able to look at the relative strengths. >> i do not think we should try to separate the pieces and parts of the policy. the pieces and parts of the policy our prevention, intervention, and retention. based on student performance in

florida, it has made a huge difference. >> that was very short, thank you. [laughter] >> it would not have been retention, it would have been third grade reading proficiency. they are inseparable. if you look at the document in your folder, about all the states, and elected state policy, you see a wide array of things. states have done a lot of different things. >> questions from the audience. someone is going to come around and give you a microphone. right here in front. >> tell us your name.

>> i am with the naval postgraduate school. i want to ask you about the -- if that was available in schools, early on, my granddaughter did it and made an enormous difference. what would that cost? is there a way to do it? >> and a broader context, -- in a broader context, we put out a requirement as to what had to be in a good reading program and we left the purchase and the decision to use that up to the district.

from a state policy perspective, we were very specific about research based programs and not a market research. every program that came out of the beginning of the 2000 had a stamp that said reading first approved. i am familiar with many of the programs, but cost wise, i cannot speak too. >> - -speak to. >> for children who are the victims of violence and bullying, should the schools and state be more compassionate on them? what do you recommend? [inaudible] >> what are we going to do about

the bullying? >> teach them how to read. >> teach them how to read, that is it. >> one question about the florida study, is there anything in the study or any other research that gives us the answer to absent retention? is there any evidence that retention made a significant contribution to those outcomes? >> relative to the full package? >> teaching an intervention -- teaching and intervention. >> it is not something we can address definitively. we do not have data on a summer

school, to the extent to highly effective teachers. many of the additional requirements were later expanded. one of the requirements that they have won consecutive 90- minute a day uninterrupted reading period. one of the things we do look at is the difference between a facts in reading and math. in all of the additional interventions, they were targeted towards reading specifically. we still see some benefits in math. that makes me think that there may be some independent the facts, but there -- the facts, but there is no way to tell for sure. >> in answer to your question, no. [laughter] >> i have a quick comment and

then a question. , and the things that can be done in terms of enhancing reading proficiency, it seems that retention is one of the most expensive thing she can do. to illustrate the data from florida, it cost more than $10,000 per child. it seems to me a problem of the cost of that is hidden. it does not get debated. is this a good way for us to spend public dollars? looking at the data that mary provided, the concern i have is that in spite of this ambitious effort in florida, over the past seven years, there has been relatively little progress in reducing the percentage of third grade readers at the lowest level. you are between 18 and 20% for

the last seven years. the schools have been going at it as hard as they can go. what next has to be done? what else has to be done? >> great question. >> one thing i would say, we have a fair amount of literature and researched now on the impact of high quality pre- kindergarten. florida has had a pre- kindergarten program for quite a number of years. the quality varies a good bit. lots of kids are not in pre-k. if you look at the work and research, there is a mountain of evidence on pre-k and what the implications it has. >> pre-k, high-quality can make a big difference. >> a huge difference.

lifelong differences. >> more and higher quality pre- pay. >> that is one answer. -- pre-k. >> that is one answer. >> we know for the first time how the system adequately against children to break the reading code. the problem of children not being able to sound out words on the page because they do not know the alphabet, we now know how do that. we do not know how did it all the teachers to do that, but we know how to do that. this was a lesson of reading first, where things fall apart is where we get to reading comprehension. reading comprehension depends on more than being able to sound out words on a page. it depends on knowledge of the

world, content knowledge, vocabulary knowledge. we're not going to get kids to acquire that knowledge based entirely on three hours a day and a good quality pre-pay program. it is going to take early intervention -- a quality pre-k program. it is going to take early intervention. it is family related programs and it is continuous and i think rather than focusing on high- quality pre-k, we should focus on what is happening in pre-k programs. >> full disclosure, i gave him $10 to make that little speech. on october 2, we were released the next volume of "future of

children." >> i would like to make a comment to your comment. pre-k program has only been in place since 2005. we're just seeing those students in third and fourth grade. there is not enough data to draw any conclusions there. we're hopeful but it will make a difference. i would disagree that we have not seen a decrease in the percent of students reading at the lowest level. we have seen many kids move from next to the level -- next to the lowest level to grade level and above. it has made a difference. to iraq in the pointed out, it is our retention policy on fair in terms -- to wrap it in the point about, it is our retention

policy on fair in terms of race -- are african-american and hispanic students have benefited the most from this policy. they have benefited from intervention and retention. they were more likely to be subject to the policy, but they were more in need of the interventions they received. >> one more question. on the right. >> thank you for airing a lot of this, this is an important conversation. i am frustrated, the inability to deal with that conflation issue, the fact that this is a package of intervention and prevention and retention. the fact that we keep calling it retention. one of the things i am wondering

is whether there is any -- maybe now, it is the radical -- may be this simple threads of attention that is adding to the ability for the interventions to work. if that is what people think might be happening, is there a less costly threats to using less costly children? >> this is an interesting question. this warrants further consideration. i do not know the precise answer to your question, but i have a reflection. there been multiple studies that looked at children's perception of greater attention as a stressful life experience -- great retention as stressful

life experience. when a look at stressful life experience, and children had already been indicating that when they report their perception of grade retention, it has been as stressful from the child's perspective as going blind and the death of a parent. ok? relatively speaking, it is a stressful for children. in terms of motivation from a child's perspective, children have perceived this -- we focus a lot of energy today on the achievement component. we're not talking about the social, emotional consequences, the long-term consequences. they are equally important as we

look at the development of a child over time. >> one of the issues is the question of a heightened awareness, made everyone serious about this urgency. there has to be more one way to achieve urgency. one of the challenges, whatever roles we have a month, is to say, does a public commentary on how we have done, we need to come up with an array of ways to achieve urgency. >> my husband refers to a self as an academic redshirt. he was retained later in elementary school. living with me while this was going on, if this had only happened to me earlier.

the other point i would make the number of parents -- teachers always say, we wish we had teachers engagement until parent gets engaged -- we wish we had parents engagement until parents get engaged. [laughter] i want to know what you're doing for my child. if that was not happening at the beginning of third grade, that was happening in kindergarten. they should know as soon as we know. to your issue of the threats of retention, i certainly understand having had to deal with it at a high school level, and the impact it has socially.

i will bring up what is the impact of self-esteem on a high- school dropout. that warrants as much consideration in this conversation. >> please join me in thanking the panel. [applause] combat on october 2. --, back on october 2. -- come back on october 2. >> the independence institute held its 10th annual -- speakers talked about personal freedoms, gun rights, and government regulation of tobacco, food and drink. he concedes 9 8:00 here on c- span. -- you can see it tonight at 8:00 here on c-span. >> it is a kind of nation we

are. whether we still possess the determination to deal with many questions, including economic questions, but not limited to them. all things to not flow from wells or poverty. i know this firsthand, and so do you. all things flow from doing what is right. >> look at what has happened. we have the lowest rates of unemployment, home mortgages in 28 years. look at what happened, 10 million new jobs, 10 million workers getting the raise they deserve. >> c-span has aired every minute of every major party conventions

and 1984. we're on the countdown to this year's convention. you can watch our live coverage live on c-span, c-span radio, and online. all starting monday, august 27. this weekend, the national review columnist there are serious problems with fraud in the u.s. election system. >> there are a whole series of things you have to do to make sure you have the election with integrity. everyone is confident that the person who got the most votes is declared the winner. >> saturday night at 10:00 and sunday afternoon at 4 pop 45, the largest bank failure in u.s. history, the collapse of washington mutual.

cableated by america's company in 1979, brought to you by a public service. >> earlier today, u.s. surgeon general spoke at the american party hat trick medical association's annual meeting in washington -- podiatric medical association's annual meeting in washington. this is half an hour. >> this meeting will be on like

any event you've ever attended. i scientific program is the most medically advanced it is ever ben, and our exhibit hall is completely sold out, we're celebrating our 100-year anniversary. [applause] in july, 1912, 225 members gathered to organize the national association dedicated to the -- association. what they have started has become the premier association for more than 12,000 podiatrists. physicians, surgeons, and specialists. we are today's podiatrists. we are continuing this long and proud history. i am honored to serve as the

president during this historic time. we welcome you to the national in a nation's capital. i held the next few days are both educational and celebratory for you all. we start this celebration with a very special guest. i am honored to introduce dr. regina benjamin, at the 18th surgeon general of the united states. [applause] azar opening session speaker today, as america's doctor, she provides the public with the best scientific information available to out to improve their health and health of our nation. dr. benjamin also received the command of 6500 uniformed public

health officials who serve in locations around the world to promote and protect the health of the american people. dr. benjamin is the founder of a health clinic and alabama. she kept in operation despite damage and destruction inflicted by to hurricanes and katrina. and a devastating fire in 2006. she is a leader in the world wide advance. she has forged a career that has been recognized by a broad spectrum of organizations and publications. she has a bs in chemistry, an md from the university of alabama in birmingham. she attended morehouse school of medicine. she holds 18 honoraria degrees. please tell me welcome your

surgeon general, regina benjamin. [applause] >> good morning. the lights are kind of pride, so it is hard to see you. -- bright, so it is hard to see you. it is really wonderful to be here with you today. at the largest gathering of podiatrists in the world. that says a lot. i have one job i have to do before i start talking to you. on behalf of president obama, and the entire administration, congratulations on the 100 year.

[applause] you really do have a lot to be proud of. committed to maintaining the integrity and the quality of the extensive education and training that podiatrists received and this has led to the success of the profession. you really do have a lot to be proud of. i was talking with some of the board members earlier and the realized i want to share with you just how i got involved. many of you here are here for the same reason. when i was an intern, i attended the medical association of georgia is annual meeting. one of the intense issues debated was sexually transmitted diseases needed be taught in medical school. i sat up in a room with 15 people or so and i said i'd

never seen certain diseases except in a textbook. the resolution passed. the georgia delegation for that resolution to be a medical -- american medical association. they sent me to speak to the resolution. it also passed. within six months, every medical school in this country was encouraged to include std's as part of their core curriculum. one person can make a difference. i learned that i can make a difference in medical practice. i found a community of working poor, too poor to afford medical care, but too rich to qualify for medicaid. practicing medicine was not just

about selling out the shark bites. i had to deal with the land sharks, the red tape, all of the paperwork. i learned that my prescription pad was not enough. the patients had problems that went beyond that. i had a patient who had seizures. i started having seizures again. she took out a piece of paper and she drew for me. she said her pharmacist used to defer these pills -- give for the spills. i realized that donna could not read. no matter what i did, i had to find some sort of services to

help per read if it was just as important as keeping her blood pressure under control. another patient called me on a saturday and and she said, my back is really hurting. i went to that specialist and he told me i needed to -- i am really trying, but my back is hurting. the ibuprofen is not strong enough. i could hear the pain in her voice. you need to come and see me on monday or tuesday. on tuesday, i walked into the

exam room and there she was. leaning over the exam table. so much pain that she could not sit down. did the medicine help at all? she said, i did not get it. what do you mean? she said, i did not have the money. you have insurance. you work for the school system. she said, i did not have the co- pay. but i get paid on friday and i promise you i will get it. i had my nurse go across the street to get her medicine. when i came back, went into the ramp, i said, here is your medicine. i can see that you are really hurting. i want to start taking your medicine. her eyes welled up with tears.

she said, of dr. benjamin, i'm so embarrassed. i did not want you to have to do that. i realized, i had taken her dignity. i realized -- she is african- american maybe, a really sweet lady. i realize that that moment, i had taken her dignity from her, cultural competency has nothing to do with the color of your skin and. i had to figure out how to get out of that. we had a few people -- we called it our medication fund just for

people like her. she was ok with that. she said, by the way, can i get a work excuse? today is tuesday, start taking medicine. we have to -- i have to go back tonight. here is a woman who is in so much pain she cannot even sit down in the exam room, but she is willing to strip the wax off the floors so our kids could go to school in a clean environment. people like her, i was willing to take this job. i could be a voice for her. it was so gratifying for me when the affordable care act passed

and preventative health services are required by insurance companies. i call that might mrs. smith. -- my mrs. smith. [applause] one of the most important aspectsfo of care is for those with diabetes. it is part of the tool, it is a vital step in preventing amputation. i have been a long time caregiver -- believer in the power of prevention. it is the foundation of my work as the surgeon general. health the kurds were we left, where we learn, where we work, will be play, where we play.

i believe that prevention is the greatest opportunity to improve the health of america's family now and for decades to come. i believe that prevention is the key to building a stronger and more sustainable system. prevention is not new to the actual dialogue. in recent years, it has become more relevant than ever before. it has become imperative. it is largely due to the changing dynamics as more american families struggle to deal with the chronic illnesses. it is a reality that is grounded in science and experience.

they are better able to learn. we know that with better health, adults are more productive at work. the work more days. with better health, students can better maintain their -- seniors can better maintain their independence. lack of prevention takes a devastating toll on patients, their families, their communities, and the workplace. it is interesting that much of the illness and the early death related to chronic diseases is caused by four modifiable risk behaviors. the lack of physical activity, tobacco use, and excessive alcohol consumption. 50% of adults have the least one chronic condition. this year, in 2012, more than 800,000 americans rick died from heart disease. the overall cause is estimated

to be $444 billion each year. diabetes is a major cause of heart disease and stroke. 26 million americans have diabetes. 7 million of them do not even know they have it. diabetes is the leading cause of kidney failure and new cases of blindness among adults in the united states. type 2 diabetes is an emerging health problem in youth, particularly minority youth being driven by an obesity epidemic. according to cdc, if the current trend continues, as many as one in three u.s. adults could of diabetes by the year 2015. up to 25% of those with diabetes will develop football star. more than half of all efforts -- will develop fott ulcers.

-- foot ulcers. people with a history of diabetic foot ulcers are 40% more likely to die in 10 years. it is so important that quality care must continue and must continue to advance. by preventing amputations and hospitalizations, podiatrist save lives and limbs and also help patients preserve their dignity and their quality of life. we have to make prevention a part of our everyday lives and empower people to make better choices. i am pleased the obama administration has launched a new agenda to help americans to get healthy, live longer and thrive. i have the privilege of sharing the national -- that was

established by the affordable care act. this council is composed of 17 cabinet heads of federal agencies. all 17 coming in around the table to talk about prevention. last year, the council released the first-ever national prevention strategy. i think there is -- if you have some slides for me. the national prevention strategy was released last year. our vision is to move our health-care system to a focus on wellness and prevention. if we truly want to reform health care in this country, we need to prevent people from getting sick in the first place. stop the illness before it ever

starts. in addition to the state of the art of medicine, we need a new approach. stang help the depends on other factors, -- staying healthy depends on other factors. our work place and our environment. we want to change the way we think about health in this country. that calls for the nation to take a more holistic and integrated approach to community health. something that you have already been doing. we need to do that as a nation. everything from safe highways and worksite wellness programs, good schools, good roads. i'm going to figure out how to work the slides. here we go. the goal of the national prevention strategy is to increase the number of americans who are healthy at every stage

of life. i want to get old, but i want to be upright. we have the four pillars, healthy and safe communities, preventive services, and powered people, and elimination of disparity. i know you have been working all of these things. we need to put them all together. if you follow the recommendations, and we have several of what we call our priority areas. if we follow the recommendations, we can prevent or reduce the five leading causes of death. we have been working with partners like you as well as partners in industry and corporations, education, local and state and tribal governments to bring this

strategy to life. we need to have a north star to follow. it gives us a direction to go. it is available to you at our website. if you want to look at it. we will come out to your community and talk to you a lot more about it. the biggest challenge has been lifestyle changes. lifestyle changes is what can make the biggest difference. as leaders, we can make being healthy fun. we can make a joyful. we have to put the joy back into health. the professionals do not have the joy. we have to find our own joya. -- own joy. you have to have -- you have to find your own joy.

maybe one person wants to run a marathon, for what ever reason. another person may be to fit into an old pair of jeans. whatever your health care joy is, we want to help you get there. our job is to make it easier and affordable to get there. we have to stop telling people what they cannot have an do. i call this the surgeon general's journey to joy. i do some walks and activities. walking is something you know a little bit about. we want to make sure that we promote walking.

i wanted to walk at this conference afterwards, but i have to catch a flight. you get out of it this time, but not next time. [laughter] we walked in north carolina, the american tobacco trail. anybody who wants to walk with us, show up tonight after the meeting. it was about 5:00. it was a really nice trail. we had a couple hundred people from the community who walked with us. it was a lot of fun. in the kind of activity, dance, what would ever. we did a lot in boston -- a walk in boston. we will do it next time. basically, have fun.

it was theher orlowalk, grand canyon. 26.2 miles and it was a challenge, but it was fine. it was being out there, being with the community. it would have been difficult except that i have cameras calling me the whole way. -- following me the whole way. if i can do it, anybody can do it. that was the whole idea. making health care fun. people say their feet hurt. we're looking for your to make sure they can help them with

that. and that not be reason not to walk. encourage people to walk and you can do that with your patiencts. we do zoomba, dance breaks. we are asking some of the radio stations to help us. 60-second downs break. you stop what you're doing, and you dance in place. stop what you are doing. [laughter] just move. you may not burn a lot of calories, but it is good for your mental health. the idea is to have fun.

i want to tell you about another area i am interested in. smoking. you know that smoking really a facts circulation. we just released the surgeon general support this spring on smoking and young adults. every single day, 1200 americans die from smoking. each of those deaths is being replaced by two young smokers. we call them replacement smokers. 90% of all smokers start by the age of 18. 99% by the age of 26. is surgeon general's report 800 pages, 136 scientist putting it together. everything i say about it has to be scientifically factual.

over $1 million an hour being marketed on tobacco and tobacco products. if we can get our next generation not to take their first cigarette before the age of 26, we can make that next generation tobacco free. it is really important that we look at our kids, particularly college-aged kids. they're the ones starting to pick it up. this is an area that we still have always to go. i hope he will follow me on twitter. -- i hope you will follow me on twitter. i want to commend you for the important health care services you provide to millions of americans every day. i want to tell you, though, we need you. we need you to take care of your own health.

i will be getting on a plane in a little bit and the flight attendants says, put on your own face mask before attempting to help others. we need to to put your own face mask on. we need to to do your own exercising and take your flu shots. make sure you take care of yourself, exercise, eat right. finally, i want to end with a quick story. there was a young girl who was jogging along the beach early one night -- early one morning. she was jogging along the beach early one morning and she was jogging and there was an older gentleman tossing a starfish into the water.

when she finished her run, she could not take it anymore. she says, why are you bothering to toss those starfish into the water? as soon as the sun comes up, they will dry out and die anyway. it is not going to make a difference. he reached down, picked up a starfish and said, because it makes a difference to this starfish. and he tossed it in the water. i hope this next few days, as you are attending this conference, that you go back, and find your starfish and that he continued to make a difference. thank you so much and congratulations on 100 years. [applause]

>> the independence institute held its 10th annual alcohol and firearms party last saturday. speakers talked about personal freedom and government regulation of tobacco, food and drink. you can see it tonight at 8:00 on c-span. >> which is more importance? it is not -- it is a kind of nation we are. whether we still possess the determination to deal with many questions, including economic questions, but not limited to them. all things to not flow from guelph or poverty. i know this firsthand and -- all things do not flow from guelph or poverty.

all things flow from doing what is right. >> look at what has happened. we have the lowest combined rates of unemployment, inflation, and home mortgages and 28 years. -- in 28 years. 10 million workers and getting the raise they deserve with a minimum wage laws. >> c-span has aired every minute of every major party convention since 1984. we are in the countdown to this year's convention. you can watch our live coverage on c-span, c-span radio, an online starting monday, august 27. >> this weekend, 75 years since a million earhart's failed attempt to circumnavigate the globe, shares his finding on her

life and disappearance. also this weekend, more from "the contenders." >> i draw the line in the dust and i say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever. >> sunday, george wallace. american history tv this weekend on c-span3. >> next, a look at the relationship between american nuns and the vatican. sister mary hughes said she was stunned. from the national press club, this is one hour.

>> there has been another story that has caught the attention of america and it does not seem to be going away. it involves the dispute between the vatican and a coalition of american nuns who got little media attention, the leadership conference of women religious. it involves many orders of sisters in the u.s.. its members are involved in teaching, nursing, caring for the poor, and spreading the gospel. in april, the vatican released a critical report that said the nuns are involved in radical feminism and theology at odds with the formal catholic

doctrine. the vatican said bishops would be appointed to reform the group. the getting move provoked outraged and many -- among many lay priests. many conservative catholics say the leadership conference group should be reined in. the vatican said the conference should focus more on opposing abortion and gay marriage. many members supported president obama + health care bill. the leadership conference said this year they opposed congressman bryant's budget before it -- because it hurts the poor. you may recall a group of sisters allied with the conference began a tour in june.

it went around the country protesting the budget. the dispute has been portrayed in many ways. another temporary rift with the church which will eventually subside. with us is sister mary hughes. see received her degree in elementary education. she began her work as a teacher in brooklyn and by the mid- 1990s, she was a chair person of the education department of iona college in new york. in 1995, for congregational elected her and she later returned to iona by was

reelected in 2007. she has served as the north american representative of the dominican sisters international and was invited member of the university of saint thomas aquinas in rome. in 2009, she began a three-year term and the presidency of the leadership conference of women religious, a term that ended last week at the end of the group's annual assembly in st. louis. that assembly announced it wants a dialogue with the bishops over the issues in the vatican report but will not sacrifice its integrity. sister mary was one of the nuns working on that statement. give a warm press club welcome to sister mary hughes. [applause] >> thank you so much for that

warm introduction and welcome. it is a privilege for me to be here. in all of my time in religious life, when i first entered and began teaching, i really never had an aspiration to teach and went over the age of seven. [laughter] i am always surprised to find myself and apply such as this and it is truly an honor to be here. i would like to maybe start off with a little background on what the leadership conference of women religious leaders is and is not for the leadership conference of women religious is often referred to as the ltwr established in 1956 and formally recognized in 1959. this happened at the request of pope pius xii who asked that the sisters for organization. they did not want to do it. they have the national education association and the catholic health association. that was enough for them. because the vatican requested

it, they did it. to see voluntary membership organization. the members are the elected and or appointed leaders of apostolic women's community. when i use the term 'apostolic' it is those countries that engage an active work and our world as opposed to contemplative were cloistered orders and their primary work is prayer and they do not interact with society and the same way. it has a threefold purpose -- it tries to assist its members personally and communally to carry out more collaborative lay their service of leadership and their congregations in order that we might better refer to the mission of christ in today's world. it tries to foster dialogue and collaboration among religious congregations in the church and in the larger society. it also starts to develop models for initiating and strengthening relationships with groups concerned with the needs of society so as to maximize the potential of the conference

to affect change. the fundamental stance is one of being a full ecclesiastical community and the church. what we are not is a theological society. we are not a biblical society. we're not a formation conference. there are separate entities and the church that cover all those thingsnor are the teachings of the church necessarily the primary focus of our assemblies. it is a leadership conference. the primary function is to support the leaders in the complex roles ahold in today's world. for instance, one of the most profound meetings i experienced was some years ago. the focal point of the

conference was a panel of women religious leaders, each of whom have experienced having kids murdered, some in africa or else salvador or here. they talked about how they handled the crisis and the media. each of us sat there. we would never find ourselves in the same role. it was incredibly moving. even barbara marx hubbard talked about the role that she feels women religious could play in bringing a cripple -- a greater onus to the world that has become so polarized. one thing that has evolved in the discussion and -- we hear talk about love and the sisters but it is just the lcwr. but they are [laughter] sisters] the sisters who are the members are elected by their own sisters.

we don't hold positions for life. i was a member of the lcwr from 1995-2001 and now i'm a member from 2007-2013. then we go back into the ranks and our sisters again. it is hard to separate the criticism of the lcwr from sisters in general because our leaders -- as leaders we are elected by our community. whether they like custer didn't like us, they would stand behind us and they do. there has been a tremendous amount of support and involvement among the membership of all the women's religious congregations in this country. a typical assembly, to give you a taste of it, we might have a speaker or two. there is the business of the organization. each year, we elect a president elected and if there is

directional statements that we are proving, they come before the whole body for approval the leaders are standing in the place of the members. we don't -- we do not act independently of them. one of the things we often do is have resolutions often in areas of social justice. more often than not, the same resolutions coincide with resolutions that are cast by the u.s. conference of catholic bishops. for instance, the u.s. conference of bishops has a stance against nuclear proliferation of weapons. we have a similar kind of stance. we have a resolution calling for immigration reform. there is a similar resolution. we have a resolution that the uccsb has come out against the paul ryan budget setting the

provisions are unduly cruel to persons who are poor. we would stand in union with the usccb in this particular relationship. although we are situated in the united states, we have sought to keep the lines of communication between ourselves and the vatican open. it has long been the practice of the leadership conference to support its presidency and executive director so that they might travel to rome each year to visit a number of the vatican offices and communicate about the work that is going on there and we in turn can talk about what is happening here. such offices would include the office on consecrated life, the

justice office, the office and into religious dialogue, the office on the pastoral care of migrants and so on. we usually stop to see the un ambassador to the united states. we visit the leaders of other religious congregations. so often, when we were in various vatican offices, particularly the work on immigration and migrants, they would be talking about their trust and we would be able to augment the conversation by speaking about the work of the sisters here in the united states. we found so often that our work coincided with the efforts of the various vatican offices to go on. in 2001, the president of the lcwr requested a meeting with the office of the congregation of the doctrine of the states. they just have not met with them in some time.

we don't primarily work with doctrine issues. they had not seen a need. they replied that would like to meet with the president but they wanted them to be prepared to speak about three issues -- or the nation as being reserves to man, the next was on the primacy of homosexuality. we went and the subject was never brought up. each year since then, we go to the office of the congregation for doctor and fate and we sat there and we asked if they had any questions. it is usually very cordial. we were surprised when in march, 2009, a letter announcing the doctrine assessment was addressed to the current president.

we took it to the franciscan sisters. another way in which we fought to keep our ties with the vatican is we meet annually with the anuncio to the united states. we have always had fruitful, positive discussions. one of my last conversations with the last archbishop was if he had any questions. this was after we had the letter announcing the doctrine assessment. he said in his very charming way, i only wish i could duplicate his italian accent, he said i receive many questions about many things and many letters but i have not about you. that is the best news anyone could really want to hear. when we had the information on

the doctrine assessment, we responded candidly and as fully and as completely as we could. in some areas, we found the erroneous attributions. sometimes, it might have been a comment that someone had answered on the floor but it was not the substance of the talk and i got reported that way. we corrected some of that information. quite honestly, the lcwr does not seek to have a much roster, persons who speak against the church. this is not the case of sisters over and against the church. we are a part of the church. the lcwr is recognized by the vatican and we are very aware of that relationship and very grateful for it and very respectful of it. and in between us submitting

the record format, we were back in the office the next year. i specifically asked if there are any new questions. is there anything else they need collaboration on. no new questions. we know now that the report was already written. it was not yet revealed to us until april 18 when we were issued the assessment and the mandate. when the presidency spoke, we were truly stunned. we thought things were going well. we met then in assembly last week from august 7-10 in st. louis, missouri. more than 900 of us were gathered in that room. havetypical assembly might

650 or 700 during the apostolic visitation is there are more. i don't remember the last time we had this many women come together. it was really at great sacrifice to the contras -- congregation. many congregations look at their own resources. one congregation usually sends two but fate -- but this year they sent all of their membership. the way the assembly body went about making decisions about how to move forward, i think is as important and historic as the decision itself. there were no fiery speeches. there was no denigration of the vatican or anyone else. we spent significant time in contemplative silence, contemplative listening, and contemplative prayer. we had also placed a priority upon being able to listen to minority voices in the room and

honoring that perspective. in the end, on the last day, when the press release was crafted and it was read to the assembly body, that was the only time that people got up and stood up and cheered. i often say if you put five of us in a room and ask us to decide a room color, we might not achieve consensus but here we have more than nine bird people in a short space of time -- 900 people in a short space of time going in one direction. i was wishing some of the members of congress could be in the room to see another way to do things. [laughter] you also need to know how grateful we are for the media attention that has surrounded this. we did not plan for this. it was the convocation to the doctrine of the states that put this public. it made the assessment and the mandate public. the press and the media coverage i believe has been thoughtful,

probing, and insightful. in so many ways, the press coverage has encouraged and challenged have the sisters to be more articulate about who we are and what we do. we just did hour before and we did not think it was important to do advertising and this caused us to step up to the plate. in the past, we have often lamented the usage nun jokes and the caricatures that were far too prevalent. the level of conversation has been significantly raised and we are very grateful to you for helping us do that. we also hold in our hearts deep gratitude for the thousands of women and men who have been in support of the work of the sisters. there were thousands of letters

and e-mails that poured into the national office and hundreds that or sent to each of these presidents separately. women gathered for our assembly, more than 1500 letters were delivered right to the hotel. they distributed the letters and it was really the centerpiece. each table had a sense of the level of imports. -- of support. the letters of support were not just cheerleading. it was people pouring out their own fate stories and in some instances, their own struggles and saying it we could help them find a way to speak. we're not talking about changing tour -- church doctrine. we're talking about a place to speak or raise questions.

there is support evidenced in so many ways and that was profoundly encouraging to us. there are certain things that are clear in our response. it is the deep desire of the membership to stay within the church and not move away from it. you may have heard speculation that the sisters will move out of the church or the leadership conference will become a non- canonical entity. only run can confer that. we could not ourselves decide to change the lcwr that way. we could all withdraw and form something else but that was clearly not the desire of the membership. we derive our strength from the sacramento life of the church. we love the gospels, we follow the example of christ, and we believe our essential and necessary get should be offered

to the church. a charism is a gift that each leader of congregation brought. in my congregation, the dominican, we have a love for truth and preaching is very much what we do. the sisters of mercy have a preeminent focus on the mercy of christ that they mfs. each congregation brings its gift, it is a gift to the total church. at the same time, because we work with those who are not -- underserved, we bring challenges to the church and that is the key. there was a document of the second vatican council that challenged religious congregations to renewal and reform in 1965. the teachings of the vatican

council are the highest teachings of the church. religious women took these seriously and were obedient to the will of all holy seed. -- see. we need to find the ways to engage in honest, respectful, and loving dialogue. pope paul vi issued an encyclical in 1964 that outlined principles of the affected dialogue. this would seem to be a moment to reclaim those principles for the sake of the church and for all belong to call this church their home. it seems manifestly clear that our annual visits to rome and the committee participation l ofcwr members on the committees are insufficient

there are diocese in which there are wonderful and honest communications between the bishops and their religious congregations, that is not present in every place. there has to be a way get better communication. as we look at the assessment, it went back to something in 1997 where we said that it was disturbing to them in 1997, why did it take so long to say it? it might better have been resolved in 1997 when the current leaders lcwr could have responded to it in person. it was also clear from the membership that they did not desire that we allow the mandate and the assessment to consume all of our time going forward. immediately following the

assembly, the presidency and the executive director met with the archbishop and he met with the board of the leadership conference. dialogue and the listening has already begun. that we continue to do. in terms of going forward in addition to that direction, pa sistert farrell, the outgoing president, offered six guidelines by which we might navigate these rough waters. we're going to continue to do this in a contemplative fashion. if the prayer and a respectfulness could bring 900 women in a common direction, we have to believe that prayer will continue to bring a feeling a -- healing and change of

corporate real wedding is not about winners and losers. we believe strongly that acharisms of our congregations operate prophetic voice to the church. that is not what my will or intention is. it is honed by a deep asceticism and deep listening. we work so much on the margins. we fall of love with the people we work with. many of those people feel excluded from the church. women go back to the center, we raised those questions. that is not to finance. it is one the church to be all it can be and so that we can hopefully find a greater place that those who are on the margins might also feel at home in the church.

that prophetic voice will continue. we have solidarity with the marginalized. when you were the people who are very poor work -- or lived under oppression, they don't have a need to keep up appearances. through their eyes, they often see what needs to be unmatched. - unmasked. we try to look at our world through their eyes because they inform us. it will be through community with carousels and community with persons like yourselves long to find a place to solve things differently and the examples of the very polarized world in which we live now to is so difficult sometimes to have a discussion on any thing. already the campaignads are

hyped up. you are red, you're white, you are black and white -- where is the avenue where people can sit and work together? we believe very strongly that the church is the body of christ and that all parts of that body have to find a way to be at home in it and be able to talk with one another and be able to work with one another. we will do this in a way that is not violent. it will not be by yelling or screaming or defamation. it will be from a deeply peaceful place. in order to do that, that relates back to the contemplation -- it is allowing the time to listen so the voices we might offer is not necessarily our own voice that comes from my place where we believe the spirit of god as speaking. we will move forward in joyful hope.

there are many who have asked that this is possible. as people of the gospel, we always live with hope. we believe if we introduce -- maybe this is our gift to the church -- to bring a different stance, to invite into dialogue with those who might differ with us so that together we might come to a greater truth. thank you very much and the look forward to the opportunity to respond to your questions. [applause] >> if the vatican decides not to have a dialogue with your group, what is your next move? to all the nuns get to vote on what you do? >> first of all, the dialogue has already begun with the archbishop. that is very promising. i have met him. he is very cordial.

he certainly seemed to demonstrate the capacity to listen. as i understand, the board meeting had an honest exchange of a dialogue has begun. in terms of voting as to what to do, it is the leadership at the congregation's that have the vote on what will come next. they also placed a vote confidence in the presidency that as they move forward, the use their best judgment. we have confidence that they will. as far as our members, we did the best we can to keep the members of our congregations in formed. i think most of us have had separate meetings with our own congregation to say what has been going on to allow this sisters to have their own voice on this. in my own congregation, because i was the one to receive this, they have been incredibly supportive.

as a matter of living in joy and hope as we move forward. >> how are the nuns' orders' leaders appointed, by the bishops or the vatican? >> by neither, in my own congregation, they elect the leaders. there's a whole process by which legates who have a status of the congregation agree to a level of education and they are involved in an election or a discernment process where the congregation might ask what needs they have and who might be the best women in our congregation to do this. there are some congregations who is head organization is in rome. in a few instances, the congregation itself nominates

people and the affirmation would come from their own leadership headquarters but not from the bishop and not from the vatican. >> have there been similar tensions between the nuns in rome or u.s. bishops previously? >> the one that occurs to me was in south america at the conference of latin america religions. there was a doctrine assessment some years back and there were about to publish a book and it had to be withdrawn. their leadership was withdrawn and the vatican appointed leadership for that organization. we have been conversations with of those leaders who were present at that time. they have given some helpful direction, most of it similar to what we came out with ourselves. we want to stay centered and keep the dialogue open and that is where the understanding

grows. >> if the dialogue fails, what does it mean for lcwr becoming independent? >> i think it is too premature to answer something like that. we are hopeful the dialogue will continue. if it doesn't, the members have to come back. given our love for the church, we don't do anything that will split the conference. you could goal of to any conference and there is another one in the country. they follow a more traditional -- i would have to look different to join the conference. there is different ways and they are all valid. as part of the diversity that

are within the church. it would be too premature right now to venture a guess on the eventual outcome. >> what authority does the vatican or -- vatican or the bishops have a overlcwr? >> it is the vatican that has the ultimate authority. i don't know the ins and outs by they look for feedback from the bishops. in many dioceses in the country, there are wonderful relationship physicians who have been supportive of us. there is a member of the conference last of this was a matter of doctrine or duality? she may have hit the nail on the head. it does not mean we should not be a great deal more prudent and respectful as we go forward. >> what are you willing to compromise and what you willing

not to compromise on? >> the body of women religious agreed upon certain principles that were important to us. one is that we would stand and our integrity and i believe they should stand on bears but we have to find ways. it would be resistance if there was anyway to reshape this. we don't see ourselves as our role to discuss church documents that are assemblies. a number of our women are theologians. we have a wonderful university in this country. throughout the country, when religious avail themselves to ongoing education and wonderful lectures at vaous universities. to us, it seemed repetitive to try to set up a way to do that at our assembly.

we're focused on leadership skills and how do we prepare our members to live in this complex society. i think that resistance would come up there was an effort to change the nature of the conference. >> your group as one of several including catholic bishops conferences that expressed deep concerns earlier this spring about the paul ryan budget saying is a failure from a moral standpoint. willie continue to speak out about this now that he is a vice presidential candidate? >> just a word of clarity t,he lcwr did not sponsor'nuns on the bus." the information was communicated to us and we did not supported montero -- monetarily. is important to separate that. it is the network that have

spoken so much on paul ryan's budget. i believe it made an effort to meet with them as they went to wisconsin. we don't normally speak out against any candidate. we have tried to give pop -- to politics separately. as we go forward, it is error consensus that by the practices that are detrimental to the poor, it would not be something we could support. >> as your group asked to talk to mr. ryan about his budget plan? >> we have not. >> how many members are there in your leadership conference and how many do they represent?

>> there are 1500 women with leaders in this conference. there are 56,000 in the united states. >> as your group and cursed the church to ordain women as priests? >> no, we have not. we don't have a speaker to talk about ordaining women. people have viewpoints on this but we are very aware of what our canonical status is so we have never had an assembly where we invited speakers to speak publicly on the ordinance of women. >> do you think the vatican crackdown is a payback for many of the sisters supported health care reform?

>> there is a lot of speculation as to the reason why and that is one of them. some have drawn the inference that because so many sisters support of health care reform that meant we are against the church on abortion and that is not at all the case. the difference between the bishops conference and the women's conference as we differ in our interpretation of the reading of the bill. several important cases have already upheld and none of that money has been used for abortions. >> our young women expected to answer the call to the old order when they're most reform -- reason reference in the case they will be violent or not acting in conjunction with their souls. >> when i come to us, they

present themselves for rowley order. -- holy orders. that is reserved for those who have studied for the priesthood. there is a concern about that. some collectors we received, i happen to run 1 -- read one in particular they said this is why i terminated my discernment. on the other hand, if women are looking and interested in joining an intelligent, well- educated, articulate group of women who can speak on behalf of the port and will not compromise. we await you with open arms at our door. >> how do you reconcile your boughs of obedience and light of what is being demanded by the vatican? >> obedience as a very decent sense is listening. it is listening carefully. in the principles of dialogue

that pope paul's roman 6 outlined "talks about how board met this that each person makes every effort to understand the perspective of the other. i think we're not there yet. when we are sure that the dialogue is taking place, i think we will both be changed by the capacity of the dialogue. i think some folks have a kind of conduct of obedience that if you are a superior or you feel you are, that is what is often called lying about obedience. in the religious community, i would not do that with my own sisters. the once on this is something we said and the talk about it. we will sit there and talk about the reasons why she should or should not and we take all that into account. that is the kind of obedience

that we will follow, one that incorporates the listening and agrees that were should be. >> why have we not heard from your organization about the accusations of sexual abuse of children? >> the accusations of sexual abuse are awful scandal in our church. it has been a very painful moment for priests and bishops and cardinals. many are helpful and minister without question and great generosity and integrity. many of our sisters have written letters when one of their man was indicted offering prayer and support. we would never use the

sinfulness of some members to denigrate reputation of ball. o --f the whole. we work with survivors and victims and to try to support them. we were the ones who went and reported things we were uncomfortable with. our loyalty is split and a number of directions. it is split with very good people who desire to govern the church well. it is also for the sake of those who have been abused and the ongoing feeling. i don't know if everyone anyone ever heal from all of those scars. >> some argue that had there been greater conversations with women earlier, maybe this would not have gone for so long.

that is speculation but i think is helpful to have women's voices in the mix as well as men's. >> do you think the attack on the sisters is an attempt to change the subject of abuse by priests on children? >> this is such a speculative issue. there was a wonderful article rison -- written in "the national catholic reporter." in all truth, there are multiple facets that are here. this is so complex, it is hard to say it would be any one thing. it could be a factor for some >>. in 1979, the head the l ofcwr ask the pope about women and ministries. has that caused the vatican to watch the minister more closely? >> that is all speculative.

she did not ask for the ordination of women. she s of the church was going to be open to having more women involved. we all have different degrees of culpability in responding to questions. i think that was a question that was very forward thinking and it's time and it was a challenge. i really cannot say whether it focus of attention and leadership conference or women who were disenfranchised. do you believe that nuns should devote more of their focus to approve -- to approving of abortion and gay marriage? >> on the abortion question, i think it is not a matter -- we oppose abortion but we do it in a different way than the bishop. the bishop has operated

politically and their republican their demonstrations that take place. very much -- they very much supported that and they do that really well. there are sisters inseminator our congregations who work and are pro-life clinics. there are usually no salaries in those places so we are supporting our women as they do that work. i cannot tell you how many of our sisters have counseled young women in our high schools or in our colleges against abortions and it has helped them get the necessary support they need. every time we open a clinic or a place where homeless mothers and their children can now come to get the test tech support they need, all that is supporting the right to life, even our literacy programs helps mothers to be better mothers for their children.

they say now they can lead to their children and talk to their child. all that is pro-life for. -- pro-life work. i think it is a matter of enlarging the conversation a bit and many sisters do go to washington for the demonstrations. as sisters aids, it will be less likely that they have the stamina to endure. in terms of gay marriage, we have not really been asked to speak about it. we have not had a discussion on it and we don't usually speak out on those doctrine issues. i mail surprised when they ask us to talk about these things. you don't want to get in the way of what they're saying. it is unlikely we will speak on gay marriage.

>> pope benedict changed catholic doctrine said that the use of condoms need not always be a violation of catholic law. should we believe that a similar evolution policy will be made for contraception? >> that is hard to speculate at the beginning of july, there was a wonderful article called sin is not simple. it went into defining what is involved in death -- in commiting. we look at the end result. the really important question is what was the motivation? the example that the author used when someone might go in and said they missed met on sunday.

-- missed mass on sunday. the issue of freedom of conscience on any issue outlined by the church would always be guided by the largest natural principles which are the motivations. it might be violent not to use the contraception. those are things that require a lot of discussion before when comes to a conclusion. >> what does this statement mean to keep our integrity in the face of vatican reforms?

>> that is mentally variety of ways. it is our integrity as a leadership conference, we want to be able to offer leaders the kinds of opportunities and the kind of skills and exposure that might better enable them to lead in this complex time. if there weren't effort to turn us into something that only discusses church teaching, that is not as useful. there are other ways they can do that. i read the document on my own and discuss them with people locally. i don't really go to leadership conferences to discuss church doctrine. i come out of a college background. in colleges, you put out any number of ideas and you discuss them and you don't necessarily agree with them. it stimulates thought bennett

refines thinking. that is the value of financial leadership conference. >> can catholicism survive the rift between the patriarchy and the female membership? >> i would certainly hope so. i would believe that it could. back in 1986, there was a reflection on religious life by the court monday talked about -- he had an insight to finding where the gaps were. he talked about the tension between the ecclesial reality a and thecharism of religious life. he said alan porteous to find ways for those -- he said how important it is to find ways for those to work together. it should not be torn apart by detention -- by dissension. that is what our hope would be. >> the bishops' conference has said that the paul ryan budget

fails the test. does the lcwr agreed? >> we have not discussed it. many of its members might feel the same way but as a conference, we have not come out with having a discussion on this. >> when you talk about dialogue with the vatican, who will be speaking on your behalf? >> persons authorized to speak on behalf of lcwr are the president and director together. it is the presidency and executive director together. we are a membership organization. in terms of accepting the conditions or agreed to a condition halladay, but to the membership of the board.

i realize that structure can appear cumbersome. some look for easier after is but is merely face card and a model of the collaborative ways in which women can really be brought together. >> do you have any message for those who have left the fate because of their disgust of leadership issues? >> my advice would be personal. as a person who was in the office on april 18 to receive this mandate, i felt humiliated personally by the experience. i know how hard women religious have worked dialogue, at communicating about their lives, and so on.

when i came home, as i sat with my own bishop and cried. sometimes we just have to pray to give our hearts back to the church. and for people who have been hurt by our church, i guess it is a prayer "ask them to offer themselves that if they can, to pray that they can find the place to give their hearts back to the church. as was said around the time of the vatican council, the church is wholly in spite of those who want to have it otherwise. we look for ways to give their hearts to the holy. >> what is the status of catholic women today? are your number is growing? how would you characterize the future?

>> if i could use my community as an example, we began with four. congregations have a comparable kind of her rope beginning. the anomaly was that we grew very large. some of that anomaly i think was probably due to the fact -- one of the teachers said the nuns i had in school were great teachers. her mother was home watching the floors.

into religious life. someone came for other reasons discerned maybe this is notthey left and they remained friends. they do wonderful work in places that we cannot begin to. we are smaller but we have always had a steady three people or so talking to us about coming in. they tend to be more educated. we had a final vote at the end of april and the floor was originally an immigrant from el salvador. the folks loved her because of her sense of humor. the next final bows will be next province of puerto rico. it is a new immigrant population. religious life is a gift to the church and i don't think god will take to get away. time're almost out of before asking the last

questions, i have a couple of housekeeping matters. i want to remind you of our upcoming luncheon speakers -- we have general james amos and we will discuss the role of marines. on september 6, kathleen turner will discuss reproductive rights and on september 13, james t. hoffa will discuss defining patriotism and the american worker. i would like to present our guest with our famous national pressu club mug. [laughter] the last question is how you think the perception of nuns of change in the u.s.? >> we probably should write a thank-you note to the vatican for shedding of a different light on this. with every challenge, there is always a blessing on the other

side. there have been so many blessings already associated with this particular crisis. one of them has been to draw greater attention to the work and where we have come from since those stereotypic days, how we have far gone to the margins. we are grateful for that. we are grateful to the media for that. we are grateful for the thousands of lay people, men and women in consecrated life, who have written to support us. we are not perfect. where challenged all the time by your example. we are challenged to think more as you confide in us the complexity of your lives. there are blessings.

i do not know if i have answered the question. i want to thank you for this opportunity to be with you today. thank you very much. [applause] >> they can for coming today. i would like to thank our staff for organizing today's event. you can find out more information at our website and get a copy of today's program. check out our website. thank you, and we are adjourned. >> tomorrow morning, we will talk with michael grunwald. david walker will take your questions about the national debt. we will look at child bearing and fertility rates