this is about one hour. "'s gerald seib moderates the discussion. this i >> so, needless to say, the council is pleased to have this, how to develop and implement fehr, sensible, and enforceable

immigration policy. develop and implement fair, sensible, enforceable immigration policy. it is a topic that often is addressed with more heat than light. a partnership for a new american economy is working to change that tendency and to promote serious, intelligent, rational, and respectful engagement on that complex issue. we are especially honored to have with us two prominent leaders of the partnership for the new american economy. mayor michael bloomberg and news corp. chairman michael -- rupert murdoch. they are joining us tonight as the partnership releases a new report on the increasingly important role of immigrants in starting new businesses of all sizes and in all sectors, the

copies of which will be made available hopefully as you leave here this evening. mayor bloomberg, after an enormously successful business career, has gone on to an enormously successful career in public service. we new englanders claim him as one of our own. the gift to the big apple. and as one of mr. murdoch's headline writers might say, "local boy makes good." mr. murdoch, as you all know, took the newspaper business from down under and over the competition -- up and over the competition to make news corp. a truly global business. for him, the headline might be, "media mogul routes rivals."

his international perspective on the intersection of business and immigration will be fascinating to hear. to moderate the discussion, we are pleased to welcome jerry seib, the assistant manager and editor and executive washington editor of the "wall street journal," also writes a column a couple of times a week. terrific, terrific, terrific read. people often say to me, "how do you know what you know? " i say that i read gerry. that is the reason. i am pleased to introduce another talented and accomplished chief executive, who is also a partnership for the new american economy. our good friend, well known to all, the mayor of this great .ity

[applause] >> this is the major city. he is asking to sit. -- this is the mayor's city. >> thank you. quotes about having this forum in the middle of summer. we in the public sector work by things -- five days a week. you guys in the private sector can do whatever you want to do and nobody ever watches you. someday when i get in the private sector, i will not have

to worry about all that nonsense. it is a pleasure to be here this afternoon. thanks to the new england council for hosting this evening's conversation. i am really proud to be a member of partnehip for a new american economy. i want to thank my friend, mayor bloomberg, for keeping the immigration issue at the forefront. and really leading the way so our country can have an important discussion on the issue. i know tonights conversation is about immigration. but i also want to recognize mayor bloomberg for his leadership. together, we started mare's against illegal guns 26 years ago. now we have this as part of the coalition.

we started a plan to reduce the toll of gun violence across the country. i am proud to stand with him on this fight. i thank him for his leadership almost on a daily basis. [applause] i also want to thank rupert murdoch for being here and sharing his views. thank you for being with us. it just gives us diversity of opinion. tonight, i am pleased to offer some brief remarks about a vitally important topic to our nation's future. boston has a proud history of

immigration. our city has been a gateway for immigrants since just about the stt of our country. tens of thousands of immigrants came to these parts in the early 1900's, and today, boston welcomes people from many different cultures and countries. immigration has made boston a better city. generations after generations, the irish, italians, the greeks, to today's immigrants from africa, asia, and latin america. immigrants have helped to reinvent boston. they make this old city new again and again. how are immigrants making boston better? let me tell you about three ways they are. number 1, immigrants are strengthening our economy.

all you have to do is shop at one of our neighborhood businesses. visit our hospitals. attend one of ourolleges. eat at one of our restaurants. see how immigrants contribute to this economy. the drive to succeed knows no one race, color, or creed. let me give you some numbers to back up those statements. 8800 immigrants owned small businesses in boston, generate almost $3.7 billion in annual sales and employ over 18,000 people. newcomers in boston also spend just over $4 billion annually. this spending generates $1.3 billion in state, federal xes

and helps support over -- 2500 jobs in our local economy. number two, immigrants are growing our cities. for the first time since 1970, boston's population stands at over 600,000 people. for us, more people means more challenges, more ideas, and more innovation. a lot of that population growth has come from immigrants. you know what we call immigrants here? mom and dad. you know what we call people from another country looking to fulfill their dreams in our city? brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles. we welcome them always open arms. we are here to help them along the way.

nuer 3, immigrants are making boston and more diverse and international city. you can walk through boston's neighborhoods and your 140 different languages, celebrate countless cultures, and sample food from around the world. listen to the fact -- in 1980, close to 70% of boston was a white -- was white. today, less than half the city is white. that diversity is one of boston's great strengths, a real competitive advantage in today's global world. immigrantsston's continue a strong tradition that dates to the start of our century, they are a positive

force for our city. they strengthen our economy, growing our population, and making our city more diverse. it is no wonder that some of our east coast, bonds have looked at boston to see what they can do to attract newcomers for the same positive results we have seen in the city of boston over the last several years. immigrants are making huge contributions in boston. this is what immigrants can do even more across our country. come together, get the job done at the national lel. this is not a democratic issue or a republican issue. it is an american issue. we want our country to be open and forward-looking. as this debate moves forward, let's not forget our past, the

factors -- the fact is that we all are immigrants. almost all of us come from someplace else. that shared experience should guide our national conversation and its tone. we should be less concerned about where people come from and more concerned about where they can go. we as a city and a country can go together. i once again wt to thank the council for giving -- the new england council for giving me this opportunity. this is one of those issues that we debate nationally, and locally, we are acting. we welcome those immigrants to our city. part of the economy, part of the growth, part of the diversity of washington. we have to respect that. i think that discussion that happens this evening will show that respect and how important

immigrants are. i just want to start the conversation. another one of those phony issues we discussed nationally. let's get down to those real issues that affect america. thanks a lot. [applause] >> i want to thank mayor menino for his kind remarks, but also, you all know he has been a great supporter of the busines community here in boston. in particular, under his leadership, we have seen this innovation district that we sit in the middle of right now really come to life. we are thrild that you are here tonight, and we are also honored by your leadership and your presence here, tom menino. [applause] notice there are index cards on your table. if you he questions for our spkers, please write them on the card, and staff will come

around to select them and give them to our moderator. with that, again, thank you for joining us here tonight. i turn the program over to joe. >> i am in great peril here tonight, and i need your help. i have agreed to moderate the discussion involving the man who signs my paycheck and the guy who started one of our principal competitors in the news business. so i have to be careful. i am counting on you to ask the hardball questions. please help me. but the money cards. do not hold anything back because i may have to. let's talk for a while, and then we will get to your questions. mayor, let me start with you. you wrote a piece in which you said there is nearly a consensus on this subject we are talking about tonight on immigration reform that something ought to be done. if there is consensus, why es nothing ever happened?

>> let me start by saying that tom menino understated his contribution to mayors against illegal guns. i helped, but he did a lot of the work. having said that, i am better looking. [laughter] integration means two different things. there is consensus on one of those things. immigration, and that is what rupert and i talked about, is the need to have people help our economy grow, put americans back to work, make sure the industries of the future are created here. to a group of people, immigration means what i call family reunification, and that is bringing over their relatives here, and they may or may not have the skills that we need for their economy, but the family reunification people would argue that that is as important or more important. i think it is true that both sides have tried to hold the

other side hostaged, but there is consensus, certainly on the economic side. there is enough pressure on both republicans and democrats in congress from the home town farmer who cannot pick his cps any more because he cannot get seasonal workers or the businesses that cannot get the engineers and doctors, lawyers that they need. the problem is that our country in congress and in washington has become so polarized, they cannot be seen working together. they may agree on something, but certainly, before the election, -- they learn what i call the dick lugar lesson. if you go to the middle and look rational, the orthodoxy of your party will throw you out, whether it is from the right or left. i think there is a consensus, but i do not see how they come to the other, unless the next chief executive, whether it is obama in a second term or mitt romney, can pull them together,

and that really is the chief executive's job. >> the report that is out today talks about the connection between immigration and economic vitality. in your mind, what is that connection? what is america missing in making that connection between immigration and economic vitality? >> maybe it is just ignorance. i have seen that pap, and one can argue very, very strongly that most immigrants add tremendously to the economy, but it is also argued about special immigrants. i ink we are in a crisis in this country. for instance, of all of our graduate students, there are on 4% within science, technology, engineering, or math in a graduate.

in china, it is 31%. we have a demand just with our present economy crippling along in the next five years for 800,000 graduates. there will only be 500,000. there is a desperate need for 300,00 i think that is probably a great understatement. if we get right now qualified people, get them in, there should not be any nonsense aut it. the mayor said it first. this is boring. we agree to much with eac other. [laughter] but the h1b visa, they should not have them. when they get a graduate degree in a certain subject, they

should have a green card. and the argument. -- end of argument. there is a huge economic argument. we could take it step after step. for instance, an immigrant is more likely to start a small business than a non-immigrant. why is that? well, they are more ambitious. they have come here. they have left behind the place they come from, may be desperate circumstances. they want to dream the american dream. i think there is a lot more to this than economics. i think it is the nature of the country, the culture, the history, which will always be an open country, to welcome the opessed, to meld them in, and they have formed the characte of this country, which must not let go. we all talk about the parties.

it is true there has been a flood of illegal immigrants in southern california or some of the southern states. there is sort of a nativist groups who do not want any more or want to send them all back, but it would not take much courage for the republican candidate or his deputy to ignore them and run right over them. they are not going to vote for obama, so what the hell? do it. it is just an overwhelming case. as i say, i think economically, which is an urgent case, and on a broader sense, i think ideologically, there is a great case for it as well. >> to add to the point, education ithe key. america is falling further and further behind the world. in new york city, we have made enormous progress in the school system.

65% of our minority kids graduate high school. i was in chicago this morning. 30% due in chicago. 65% in new york. yet, in new york, we are stil falling behind what is needed in industry and falling behind what the rest of the world is doing. the one part of education that we own is higher education, except we are deliberately trying to kill it. we are taking the best and brightest -- they get their ph.d. or their masters, and then we send them overseas. they cannot teach here. they cannot do their research here. what do they do? th built the industry's overseas and start making the overseas universities better than us. you will not reverse that easily. there is something like 3 million unfilled jobs in this country. businesses just cannot find qualified people to work. it is not incident just education. in alabama and places like that, a lot of the crops this year just brought it in the fields. they could not get people to

pick the crops. -- a lot of the crops this year just rotted in the fields. >> if this were easy, we would not be having this conversation. you have to deal with the politics. you have to make people feel better. make my family feel better. my son is a physics student. you let in a lot of foreign physics students, are you diluting his job market? my sister lives in amarillo, texas. they are very worried about waves coming across the border. >> one, nobody has come across the border in a long time. we spend a fortune on technology. if you want to come to america illegally, do not waste your time going across the border and through the desert. it is dangerous. just lie here and overstay your visa. we have absolutely no ability to check who you are and get you back. -- just fly here and overstay your visa.

we solve our problem by having an economy crater. people do not come here to put their feet up and collect welfare. if there are no jobs, they did not come here. if they cannot find a job, they go back home because america is not a very good place to sit around and think the state will support appeared in the case of your son, somebody has got to create the business that he is going to go to work for. all of the numbers show -- and rupert pointed out -- immigrants, and i think it is because it is a self-selecting thing -- rupert is an immigrant. it cannot be easy to leave australia, come to the other side of the world literally, give up all your friends and family, everything you know, and start out from scratch. at is what people are willing to do. of course immigrants are going toe more aggressive. of course they will be more risk takers. at is why they have come he. your son will want to go to work in a place where there are other engineering companies. that is the duty of the boston area, which has the big high-

tech industries. york, where we are creating one. austin, texas, silicon valley. -- nework, where we are creating one. they want to be where there are other people doing the same thing, other companies. the way business works is you split off. people go back and forth. you copy each other. you work to -- you work together. you buy from, you sell to. unless someone starts the process, your son will not have a job. >> in silicon valley, you suddenly realize it is misnamed. it is not the silicon. it is the evidence. imgrant valley. go there for a couple of days. you'll be overwhelmed with young people with great ideas of trying to set up. some have been successful. you can name company after company -- big companies and hundreds of little companies, of course. they all took big risks.

>> i spoke to a united states senator i will let them coue weeks ago, and he was at silicon valley, and i asked what they want to talk about, and he said immigration. you are right. the question i have for you is -- i of the feeling is that strong in the business community, why are more people not marching down to washington where i live and making something happen -- if the feeling is that strong? >> that why we have got to organize this, try to get a movement going. to make ourselves stock. we are the politicians. >> i would argue that the one thing that seems to drive most elected officials -- not all -- tom is not one of them. i am not one of them, i hope. but most elected officials, their business is a job. they might also want to make a difference in the world, but it is a job. it is the way they feed their families. the thing that drives them the most is a way to keep their jobs, which means getting reelected or elected in the first place and keeping the

party in power because that makes it easier to continue to get reelected. if you want them to do something, you have to convince them that votg with you for your interest will enhance their ability to stay in office. and i of the other side has a bigger threat to them -- and if the other side has a bigger threat to them, they will go in the other direction. the perfect example is the nra. it is a textbook case of how you go and influence congress. you either vote with the nra or you do not. they never take any prisoners. they are explicit, and they do not consider any of your other views. our problem is as rational people we will allow an elected official -- we might not like this one thing, but they are ok on the other things. the gamble is they will vote with the nra and hope we still like their positions on lots of other stuff. whereas if they do not vote with the nra, there is no question the nra will go after them. you have to make the immigration

lobby, if you will, say to the officials, "you either do something to help this country and get the people in your we need, or we will vote for you opponent and raise money for your opponent." unless you are willing to do that, you are just sitting in the wind. >> i want to spend the next few minutes just beating up on the teachers' union. [laughter] the mayor has had a tremendous 10 years, 11 years, a lot of it pretty tense when it comes to the teachers' union, and he has made a lot of progress. you can bet that his successor will undo all that. it is a tremendous problem.

for instance, they have managed to get themselves into position, and think this is probably true across america, where all the teachers bargain for is a pension and how early they can retire, how soonhey can get tenure, etc. so when the education authority comes to look at the books, they've got very little money for hiring new teachers what do they get? they get the lowest -- they draw from the lowest 20% of university graduates. other countries make it legal that you have got to draw from the top 30%. it is all sort of self- perpetuating, and there has got to be a showdown sooner or later on this matter because they then charge their members q deduce,

and they throw money at every politician -- they charge their members huge dues and they thr money at every politician. >> will your reforms on rabble? >> i hope not. what we have to do is instill in the public the notion that they can have schools thainclude all the students. i think about it, we guiliani -- rudy giuliani was my predecessor. his job was convincing the public that you could have low crime and good race relations and that any mayor that came after him would not be able to allow a crime to go back up. since then, we have brought crime back down another 35%. we will have the lowest number of murders in the city's history. life expectancy, partly because of low murders in new york city, is now three years greater than

the average in america. but i could not let crime go up. i would just get beaten in the press every sing day if i did. that is not the reason i brought crime down. that is not the reason ray kelly is i think the best police commissioner the city has ever had. t the public would not tolerate it. what we have got to do in education is try to create an expectation of the public they will not tolerate the reform's going away -- reforms going away. the teachers union will certainly put a lot of pssure on the candidates in the democratic primary. the democratic primary is everything. they will put an awful lot of pressure on offering their support in return for -- and they might not want to roll back everything. that is not fair. but a lot of the stuff they want to roll back. particularly evaluations that are specific. if you take a look in the

country, i think one of the real difference is -- differences is how much you want to measure people based on. some is touchy-feely, some rael members. rupert and i certainly would agree that you want to measure outcomes, and in the private sector, if you do not do a good job, you will lose your job. if your industry is in trouble, and because of the economy, you are competitive, so what? you will still lose your job. in the government, it does not work that way. the teachers union will set family structure does not today provide the background that it used to before and therefore, they cannot do a good job. that is not an excuse in the private sector. >> nor is it true, as the charter schools have shown. i know from some charter schools, when they draw by lottery tickets, 60% of them from single mothers, and they turn out and get incredible

grades. they do a superb job. they go on to college, everything. it is a tragedy tt there's so few of them. >> there will be pressured to change the democratic party in new york city. 20 years of built up pressure r patronage is a pretty powerful thing. we will see. i think there are four main candidates thaare running, and i think they are all intelligent and smart. they will have to make their case to the public and to the teachers' union and balance that. it is not easy for them. i will be interested in seeing what they do. all i know is what i have got to do is try to make the public understand if they demand a great government, they can have it, but it is up to the public in the end to hold government's the to the fire -- feet to the fire. if you do not do that, government will go to work for the people that had the most to

do with their getting reelected. there are certainly business groups that do the same thing. >> you started down this path of immigration a minute ago. what would you like mitt romney to do on immigration or to say onmmigration, and what would you like barack obama to do or say on immigration? that either one, i would love them to say that they are going to change the whole system. at least at the beginning. get rid of this h1b thing. as for the so-called illegal mexicans, give them all -- that behave according to the law or that are okay, provided they learn english, give them a path to citizenship. they will pay taxes. they are hardworking people. they are everything. why mitt romney does not do it i have no idea. because they are natural

republicans. [laughter] they are catholics. >> they seem to be all in the democratic party, but they tend to be much more conservative on social values -- gay rights, public schools, the sort of thing. the republicans walking away from the latino community is about as dumb strategy as any political party has ever adopted. but you know why he does not do it -- the screams in his own party would drown him out. what are they going to do? that led to bad. he is going to go to the convention. are they going to go and vote for obama? -- >> too bad. he is going to go to the convention. are they going to vote for obama? >> can you see a republican

convention where they do not nominate mitt romney at this point? in terms of the general election, the people opposed are not going to vote for obama anyway. the same thing is true i would argue for barack obama. both guys have 45% of the vote. they do. you are really arguing about 10% or 15% in the middle, maybe less. those people are not ideologues. they have real interests, and they listen. that is where all the attention should be. i think that a lot of people, all the pac's spending misfortune -- i think all these people are wasting their money. there are so manyds in swing states, everybody tunes out and you cannot pay attention it is slogan after slogan, and eventually, your mind bills to the whe thing. >> -- your mind dulls to the whole thing. >> on this hispanic think, i

agree with you. they are very sensitive people appeared on saturday, there was not a hispanic in this country who was not crying with joy about the winning the gold medal in brazil. di any candidate had enough sense to refer to it? no. but iis not a difficult thing to do. it takes maybe a little courage, a little bit of overriding a few advise, but it can be done. >> in this new report, which is fascinating reading, the downside -- the good news is that business started by immigrants are going up. but aside -- i wanted to ask about -- ask both of you -- is that businesses started by native americans are going dow

what is the problem? why are there not more entrepreneurs among native-born americans? >> it has been too easy to go to college. and spent three years being subsidized to do bloody media studies or some rubbish. [laughter] truly, it is easier to go to college and take some soft course. that is one thing. you know, we have 23 million people in this country today who are out of work, who do not work. a lot of them have given up looking for work. are they getting so much benefits and everything? i do not know. but i think you have a big problem. it is getting very political.

i think you have so much doubt about what is going to happen to taxes or what is going to happen to regulation and everhing else that people are frightened to start a biness. there is uncertainty about the future, which gives people nfidence to do something. >> it is two things. the hunger of immigrants. it shows every time. every ethnic group, the newer ones here are hungrier. that is a self-selection process. if you come here, you want to do it. those that are already here, some do, some do not. the other thing is having them go out and actually be creative and try new things -- you know, as his fascinating. this morning, i was in chicago giving a speech. the two presidential candidates are unwilling to y where they stand on immigration, on the fact that 40,000 americans are going to get killed in the next

few years with illegal guns. we havthis triple witching hour of sequestering and the bush-year tax cuts -- bush-era tax cuts and the deficit ceiling staring us in the face. the good news for the country is we at least have two vice- presidential candidates that seem to have some courage and say what they want to say. whether the people who have picked them to run with are happy about it, i do not know, but you cannot say that either will ryan or biden are shrinking violets. good for them. whether or not you agree with them, at least you know where they stand. >> i agree totally. wish we could reverse their positions on each ticket. >> what of the big problems we have in the country- there are these old industrial cities that have been hollowed out. boston, not true because you have a big stem group of peer --

up here. it has a big history. or chicago or new york, and there are other cities, but there are cities who their whole industri have just left. there's no traffic on the roads. they have too many classrooms, not too few, as we do. the question is -- what can you do about it? i was asked about it, and that picked detroit, and i do not know why i picked it as an example, but the federal government could do something and it would not cost anything. we are so worried about not having the money, but here is a solution to the problem. if you have a better one, we would love to hear it, but we could say that we will welcome people in this country, families and we will assign them to a city, and they have to agree to not be arrested, not take federal or state money, and be there seven years, and if they survive seven years, we will make them and their families full citizens. they would go there, by these houses that are parallel, fix

them up, there kids to school and tell them to value education, make a big fuss and demand the schools get better. immigrants have a very low crime rate. we certainly do not have to worry about that. they create businesses. if they had to drive to california every morning for three jobs and drive back at night, they would do it. when people vote with tir feet, they come to america. it is the one currency. it costs us nothing, but it is phenomenally valuable overseas. you would get people to come here, and they would fill those cities with a vibrancy. people who are unemployed in those cities would suddenly have companies they could go to work for. they would get the jobs helping to fix up the houses. they would be in the schools, driving the buses, starting schools of their own because they see how other people can do it. other than that, i do not know how theres any great solution. at these immigrants that will create the jobs. >> i do not know that i agree

with that. that is a pretty high price to pay. but cities, and cities go, and there are great new cities being come and cities go. detroit is a disaster area, but you go 10 miles around, and there are beautiful suburbs everywhere. it is not that bad. there is just change. it will come back. someone will bring it back. i agree with that. you will probably get, you know -- i have a theory that within three or four years, you will see huge, chinese investments in land and development in this country because they will have to put their money somewhere. >> that is a good segue to the first question from the audience. thank you. appreciate it. it is something i wanted to touch on. what can we learn from other countries and the way they think

about immigration? other countries other than the united states. what should we be learning from them? >> we are learning -- and we can if they are successful -- i think that's -- what looks less successful is singapore is not a great example. they have got a tiny island, and that a lot of money to get the very best brains the, and as a result, they have a higher gdp per person. it is terrific. but if you look at australia, new zealand -- i would not say australiwas ideal. the is a huge debate about it at the moment. it is only about illegals coming down from asia, and personally, i will let most of them in. it is interesting -- we have had floods at times from different places, and it has led to crime,

and whenever crime has been left alone, the community has taken over a town or the outside of sydney, or all vietnamese would be one, all lebanese another, it is not long -- maybe it takes half a generation -- they work it out amongst themselves with their leaders are. there are power struggles and gangs, but that is normal. look what we have d in this country. you saw that film -- what was it called? "new york." ." "gangs of new yk >> it was fantastic, the battles. now we are a much more sophisticated country, a much bigger country. and people spread out much more. they do not all, in a flood --

they do not all come in a flood. >> we give out most of our basis for family reunification. take a country like canada, most of theirs are given out for helping the economy. there are a lot of countries around the world that will pay you to come there and start a business. they have a pro-business policy. they use immigrants as a stimulus to their economy, and we do not have that mind set. >> canada loosen up in the last year or so. yes, you should go to vancouver. a lot of the big i.t. companies have offices in vancouver because they cannot get the engineers into the united states, but they can get into vancouver. it is just a boat ride across the pond. >> it is a great manufacturing center for drugs to come across the border. something like $10 billion or $15 billion of bad drugs come in

from british columbia to the western states. i am not suggesting what you can do about it, but it is a fact of life. >> there is a question here about something president obama d a few months ago, which was a stopgap policy, which was essentially to say that his administration would not enforce the deportation laws as they pertain to younger immigrants who were born here -- illegal immigrant parents, been to school, got in trouble with the -- have not gotten in trouble with the law, we will not deport them. is that a good idea? >> politically, it was brilliant. romney, instead of changing his policy and outbidding him, said he did not want to look like a flip-flopper. well, what the hell is he talking about? it is the policy that matters.

administration has supported more undocumented and probably the last five administrations put together. you would not expect that from a democratic administration. -- the obama administration has deported more undocumented then probably the last five administrations. kids that were carried into the country in their parents' arms -- did they break the law? technically i suppose they had no right to come across the border. they did, but in terms of culpability, i mean, come on. these are people who want to work. they want to go to school. they want to serve in the military. we are desperately trying to get groups like the to push them out? the president wa right on this. >> i agree totally. >> theext question, i will read what is written because i think it captures the political ranks. how do you count the the rhetoric that is out there that immigrants are taking jobs and

change it to immigrants create jobs? also the web up -- also, what about people's fears that immigrants might be terrorists? >> last time i looked, most of the terrorist tend to be born here, educated here. they all have mental problems and that sort of thing. it is true there are terrorists overseas. what are you going to do? close the book and not let anyone in? a terrorist is just as likely to be a terrorist as someone who comes here to work. i just do not think that is a legitimate thing to worry about in terms of creating jobs. if you have a seasonal worker, they create jobs at gher economic levels in terms of once the crops are picked, what happens to them? at the engineering level, they create jobs below in lesser skills, so you want to work in both directions, but the terror thing -- we have to be vigilant. we have to be in charge of our own borders. we have to make sure that we

have intelligent policies. for example, if you get a visa, you come here, we do not track when you leave, so we have no idea how many people are here. we are not doing the things we should do, and that is why i think the 9/11 memorial is so important, to teacheople a lesson. but that is not a reason to not have people come here. the terrorists want to take away our economy, take away our rights, and if you do not let immigrants in, they are going to win. >> i am sure that the federal authorities, the fbi are very aware -- i know that is the case in britain, but you look where you get big muslim communities. they are all fine people. you want to have a look at the mosque and what they are being told. muslims are just fine, but there

are a few who are rabble- rousers' and brainwashes -- rabble-rousers and brain watchers -- and brainwashers. they are watching kids who have got not a school, go on a so- lled family trip for a year or two years, they come back, and they keep them under surveillance for quite a while. they are british citizens, just as they would be american citizens here. i think we are watching it pretty well, but i do think we want to look at what is going on in some of those places. >> what about if he wanted change the perception politically that immigrants take away jobs to immigrants create jobs, how does that happen? >> i do not think that is true. i think it is only if the immigrant has worked harder. we have it in britain. because of the common market,

people can move around. hundreds of thousands of poles went into britain. mechanics and plumbers and so on. they built the olympic stadium. it is a wonderful olympic stadium. i was in it last week. they built it a year earlier. i guarantee if e british had built it, it would have been all done in the last week in triple time. [laughter] yes, they are pretty popular. they behave pretty well. now poland is doing better. most of them have gone back to poland. but they just work better. >> s&p did a study of correlation between how good a city is doing in america and the immigrant population. those with high immigrant populations had better credit ratings, better economies, better average education, lower crime, the sort of thing.

i think if someone wants to demagogue, there are people who will believe slogans because they just sort of want to. >> but i think there is a certain situation, which has grown in europe where politicians have been lying and giving out money and borrowing and so on, and we have an entitlement state. we get in our newspapers hundreds of letters a week from people who are working really hard in the north of england, getting 15,000 or 1600 pounds a year, and they are pretty down hard. next door, they have got people getting 20,000 because they have got six kids, and they get every possible entitlement. that is pretty spread through europe, and that is why europe is now having this sort -- i do

not know what sort of mess it will be, but you can rise up from it through economic growth for the next 10 years. but we do not want to let that happen here. >> make the case you guys are trying to make, you have picked a terrible time to do it. unemployment is 8.3%. how can you make this argument about immigration before the economy craters -- how can you do it in this environment? >> you have to in this environment. it is like how can you make an investment when times are tough? new york city walk away from its future back in the 1970's. they did not make any investments in infrastructure or maintenance or anything because the economy was bad, and it took decades to work their way out of it, but if you go back and look at history in america of one great things were done -- central park, the empire state building -- these were things that were started at the bottom of a recession.

there is a guy -- not barnett -- gary barnett. everybody thinks he is crazy. he has been building through the whole crisis, and suddenly, there is enormous demand and he's got these buildings. he just sold a building for $90 million a piece, and stop telling because he cannot keep up with demand. he is going to wait until prices go up. brilliant, but the people, leaders make investments when times are tough. leaders bring along other people, and the president of the united states, this one, where the nextne is, they have got to bring along congress. it is their responsibility to answer your question, to explain to the public and make sure we do it, or we will not have a future. >> we've got a great economy. the unemployment wilgo down. to get a great economy, we have got to have more and better

migrants. >> two years from now, will this immigration system have been changed, or will it be the same one, and will we be having the same conversation? >> i think it will have changed. it will have had to change. >> i agree. i think the pressure eventually will get to everyone, and all of these things where we say the president and the governor are not addressing the issue -- they are not addressing the issue, they are uilling to say anything -- that is still pressure that will be there after the election. then, because the president fundamental has a two-year, not a four-year job because midterm elections are really very important to his or her ability to continue on and to govern, so they've got a very short window. they have to address this right after the beginning, and it will come out as a bargain with

everything else. just over night, everything, they will get in here, hear, hear, and y get in here, here, and they will have two years to put their constituency back together. if they do not do that, you will have a lot, and we will also have more experience about what happened in europe and how they can down the road. some parts, they will really have to face some ofhis. spain is in big trouble. italy is in big trouble. in greece, they're just does not seem to be a solutn. merkel has got big political problems at home. -- in greece, there just does not seem to be a solution. asia and china's economy's just slowing down. it is not good for america. not good for europe. all these economies are interdependent. people keep defending the chinese people. manufacturing in the united states has actually done very well. people do not understand how

good manufacturing has been the last year in arica. what it has not done as it has not created jobs. it is using technology, but we need a market to sell the things we manufacture. china is the biggest market in the world for us. we want their economy to be good. they also insisted the bill restores with things that people want to buy at low prices. the consumer is one of these days going to wake up and say, "wait a second -- i want them to keep sending stuff here. without them, i could not afford it." >> one very hopeful thing -- in the last few years, we have had enormous discoveries of natural gas in this country. we have an energy policy for six or seven years, we will be totally independent of importing any oil or gas, and the gas which will go into the power stations and the coal will give out half the carbon in the coal dust. we will not have to worry about bloody wind rms and other

hideous things. [laughter] >> glad to see you supporting the coal plants. >> absolutely. we have got the gas now. except in your state, we have a governor who has been very slow to allow it to be brought out of the ground. >> the politics of that will be interesting. we have got to close on an optimistic note. i love it. thank you, and thank you for making my life easy. [applause] i would like to thank our two very distinguished speakers for their eloquence on a very difficult issue. and what they are asking all of us is that when we meet the federal candidates, and comets, or challengers -- candidates,

incumbents, and challengers, i think it is important that we elevate the discussion, and it is up to is to elevate it. these they get these master's and ph.d. is right here. we have the finest colleges. it is a shame that we send them back to their countries. they go back and they create these wonderful products that they sell to us because of the knowledge they have received here. we cannot agree more on the visa. visa.