on american's dependence on government programs. then it steve gunn solace from the american legion talks about job programs for veterans. -- steve gonzalez on the job programs for veterans. washington journal is next. >> good morning and welcome to "washington journal."

we are going to be comfortable early voting. if you are going to do some early voting, your thoughts about that. you can reach us via social media and facebook clean. one of the headlines will be looking at comes from the new york daily news. thousands will cast vote before the presidential debate.

thanks to a certain states that allows early voting, some of the most important battlegrounds will be opening their polls within a few weeks. let us know how you feel about this. the numbers are on the screen.

while we wait for the funds to heat up, a little bit more from this morning's article. they write -- also as we wait for the telephones to heat up, i want to show you a map we got from the new york daily news. their version is in black and white. the light of days states are states where voters can cast ballots early, even if they will be in town on election day. the darker beige states including states like missouri, michigan, alabama, kentucky,

pennsylvania, new york and others up in new england, those are states where voters must present a legitimate reason for an absentee ballot. we will be talking about that for the first 45 minutes on this addition of "washington journal." you are on the washington journal. caller: hello. i am so happy i could get on here this morning. i just want to say i totally disagree with early voting. i think it is too early. people have not had a chance to look at the dates yet. as far as republicans and democrats, we have already decided who to vote for. for the dump -- for the independence, i am concerned they have not begun to hear the debates yet. host: had already made up your mind? caller: i have, i am voting for

barack obama. host: new york is a state where you have to present a legitimate reason for an absentee ballot. if you could vote early, would you do so? caller: i guess i would, yes. host: let's move on to tim in of illinois, also on the line for democrats. caller: hello. host: your state is one that can cast votes early. are you going to take advantage of that? caller: i will. i think it is a good idea. i look at the two candidates, mitt romney and obama. mitt romney has no plan. the rich will continue to be rich and the poor will continue to be poor. i will go with obama.

he has a plan for all americans. he believes that all the blood is the same. host: go ahead, patrice. caller: i think early voting is a great idea, especially if you have already made up your mind. i have made up my mind. host: who will you vote for? caller: president barack obama. i just think that his plan is the right way to go. especially when you have a candidate who does not have a plan or will not reveal it to the voters. i would rather know than not know. at least i know with the president, he has ideas that we can relate to. i like what he says about the middle class. i like what he says about

immigration situation, gay marriage, health care. and the i am work in health care. i am a claims examiner. i deal with the issues every day. host: we will move on to jeff on the line for republicans calling from arkansas. you are on the washington journal. caller: i will vote for mitt romney. host: are you still with me? arkansas is a state where you can cast your ballot early. will you take advantage of that? caller: is, that is what i will do. i will vote november 6. host: so you are not going to vote early? caller: ok. host: let's move on to kathryn from hawaii on the line for democrats. caller:aloha.

host: what part of why are you in? are you going to take advantage of early voting? caller: absolutely. host: how early can evoke in hawaii? caller: i am not sure how early. unfortunately in hawaii, our vote does not seem to count because all the ballots close by the time we get to our area. everything is already counted. host: do you think of voting early increases the impact of the votes and why? caller: absolutely. -- in of hawaii. host: let's move on to spokane,

washington. caller: if people want jobs and want to continue to drive cars, higher the rich guy. he is the one with the money. i am voting for mitt romney. there is no doubt in my mind. host: are you going to vote early and take advantage of washington state? caller: i cannot vote early because washington does not do it. host: more from the article in this morning's new york daily news.

back to the phones. lee is on the line for republicans. caller: this is something i do not think anybody thinks about. what happens if they vote and that candidate has a heart attack or a plane crash and is gonna. what happens to the vote that? host: that is a very good question. do you think the situation would be different if everybody voted

on november 6 and before the inauguration something happen to the candidate? it would probably go to the vice presidential candidate and make him the no. 1. caller: how could it go to the vice president when he is not on the ballot? he is on the ballot, but -- host: according to this map we have, louisiana is a state that allows early voting. are you going to take advantage of that? caller: i do not believe in it. i think people ought to vote on november 6. that is what i am asking. nobody can answer my question. host: maybe somebody who is listening or watching will have the answer and will call in. in the meantime we will move onto david in wichita kansas. morning. what do you think about early voting? caller: i think that is the most smartest option they have

brought forward. our country is full of so many elderly people. to try to rush them all and on one day is virtually impossible. a lot of votes are not getting voted. by electing people vote in advance, it makes it easier for the elderly. i am an elderly person, too. and disabled. you cannot do anything smarter than that. host: kansas is one of the states that allows for early voting. were you take advantage of caller::you bet. host: by absentee or gutted the voting place? caller: -- or go to the voting place? caller: you may have to go down to the courthouse to get it. host: had already gotten your

absentee ballot in the mail? caller: not yet. host: when caller: you expect: this week. -- when do you expect it? caller: this week.

you can read that at nationaljournal.com. cincinnati ohio is where we get the next call.

caller: i listened to the first lady speak and i thought, that as an intelligent comment about the debates. and then she said, i will turn around and make my mind up and i am voting for barack. she was not going to listen to the debates and evaluate them anyway. i disagree with voting weeks or months in advance. as far as that gentleman sang the old people cannot get there, i am old and i can get there. everybody should have two days to get there. you are not even listening to the debates. she did not either. host: it sounds like a lot of people already have their minds

made up of the debates will not change them. they have the option. they can take the option or wait for the debates. caller: if we want an informed society and the voter, they are not allowing themselves to be informed. they have made their mind up third sound bites or whatever. the only people that should be allowed to vote when we court two ahead of time should be the military. other than that, have two days saturday and sunday. nobody has an excuse not to get there. host: ohio is a state where voters can send in votes early. if you make up your mind before november 6, would you send it to an early? caller: know, i think everybody should have to listen to the debates. host: the lead story in "the

washington post" -- gov. romney talks about being in the middle of this fight tonight. we will show you a little bit about what he had to say. >> a lot of republicans would like to know -- a lot of your donors want to know how you turn this thing around. what do you do? >> you have to campaign which is

tied with an incumbent president of the united states. host: from the associated press this morning -- back to the phones and our discussion regarding early voting beginning in about 36 states. missouri is when we get our next phone call, and that is dan on the line for republicans. caller: good morning. i was going to say right off the bat, everybody in the united states should go see the movie "obama 2016."

a gentleman said this movie up who went to college with obama. it goes through his life, his family, and his agenda for america. host: now you have plug the movie. tell us if you are in favor of early voting. caller: absolutely. the elderly have a problem, but also the working people. they have to go really early or really late. sometimes they do not get to vote. it is important to have early voting. i know of the debates are nice to watch. most of us already know who we are going to vote for. i know our country is sinking fast. if we do not get something done about the national debt, the port and the rich and everybody is down the tube. host:we haev a tweet from max

that says -- is that where a lot of people will be focusing their attention regarding voter fraud? caller: down here you have to prove who you are. if you do not have a driver's license or something like that, you are not going to get to vote. we go to the court house to do this early. i do not know how you would beat the system unless you have a fraudulent id. host: our next call comes from james on the democrat line. caller: good morning. i just wanted to say as an american citizen, i find it disturbing and appalling when you talk about early voting and the suppression of people when you go back to woman's suffrage

and the civil rights acts, that was the whole nature of this democracy was to give people the opportunity to express themselves. to see how some of these republican-led states are trying to put in place mechanisms that would deprive people of that right that we all have, it is a very depressing to me as an american citizen. living here in florida, early voting is something that is available. he should be doing everything possible to encourage the electorate to get out and express their concerns. host: let me get your thoughts on this. he writes --

are you going to be in that group or will evoke early? caller: enabled bodied man here. i will probably be. i would encourage people to vote early. we do not want everybody to flood in on election day. there are uncertainties. if you can get out and get things done in advance, i think that is a great opportunity for those people to be able to do that and express themselves. i am in the 58%, because i am an able-bodied guy. host: james talked about the uncertainties of life, which is sort of the topic of another tweet from jody.

our next call comes from oregon. will is on the independent line. caller: i would like to talk about voting in oregon. we mail and our balance. they arrived three weeks before the election and every voter gets one. host: how is that working out for you? caller: we have no reports of fraud and we get about 80% turnout. everybody gets a fair and equal chance to vote. host: would you like to see that philosophy or policy extended to all 50 states? caller: it sure makes sense. other states have their own values. here in oregon it works out well for most of us. we found out it is really convenient.

you can drop them off at balata receiving locations around the county or mail it in. -- ballot receiving locations around the county. the national thing, i think we have been watching that for the past two years on tv. a lot of us have made up our mind. it is the other issues, the local elections, a municipal- bond that i am concerned people are not giving it to the full time if a vote early. host: thank you for your call. some callers have expressed concerns that voting will be done before the debates even start. we want to tell you about our coverage for the debates. watch and engage as the presidential candidates meet in 390 minute debates next month. october 3 from the university of denver they focus on domestic policy.

tuesday, october 16, audience questions in a town hall format from hofstra university. october 22 from lynn university as the question terms to foreign policy. you can listen to them live on c-span radio, watch them on c- span, and strain than online at c-span.org. austin, texas,donna is on the line for republicans. caller: i will cast my vote for mitt romney. if you are going to vote early, you should have a reason why you cannot vote on the regular election day. i will vote to write on the very day. host: you say people should have a good reason for voting early. what is a good reason? caller: having to leave the

country or leave town. host: our next call is from a larry on the line for independence. go ahead. caller: i am and early voter. i have always voted early. i appreciate the opportunity to do that. the benefits a lot of people working in our fast-paced society. with the advent of technology and information, if your mind is into voting and you are an early voter, you will make an effort to learn more about the issues and people running. host: do you do early voting in person or an absentee caller::it is an absentee ballot. host: doesn't have the local elections? what earlier caller was concerned they might want to learn something are still may

need to learn something about local or state elections. caller: local everything is on there. this prompts me every year to do my homework and not wait until the last minute or need a debate to be convinced. ever mission is out there if you want to know. host: have you done your homework? who will you vote for? caller: barack obama. host: the lead story in an "the new york times" --

talking foreign policy and foreign relations will be part of the topic on this week's's "newsmakers." joe lieberman talked about all kinds of things including cyber attacks on u.s. institutions and attacks of the u.s. consulate in libya as well as other things. the fact he is retiring from the senate this year and returning to private life. we will show you a little bit of the interview. part of the interview he talks about the attacks, whether or not there was a terrorist attack, and the fact he is puzzled by some of the reaction by the administration that does

not identify the attack as a terrorist attack. >> i was puzzled by some people in the administration who was hesitant to call it a terrorist attack. whether it was planned, premeditated, or spontaneous, it had all the attributes of any accepted definition of terrorism. it was the use of violence to carry out a political mission. clearly, that is what happened. i do not think we know enough yet not to know whether it was opportunistic. whether it planned to occur on september 11 or whether it was a plan -- if i could put it this way -- they had it on the shelf. when the saw what was happening in response to the anti muslim

film, they seized a moment and carried it out. it clearly was not just spontaneous. they knew what they were doing. the facts are not all clear. host: you can see the entire interview with senator joe lieberman later on this morning right after this program at 10:00 a.m. on c-span. at 6:00 it is also available online at c-span.org. back to the phones and our conversation regarding early host: palin next call comes from brenda on our line from republicans the-our next line comes -- next call comes from brenda on the republican line. , then i am --

caller: i will be voting absentee and my mother will also be voted absentee. she is 92 years old. we will both be voted absentee. we will be voting for mitt romney. host: you have heard enough and you are going to make that decision and nothing can come up in the upcoming debate to change your mind. caller: it would have to be a traumatic for me to change my mind. i have also done my home or because i keep up with it daily. host: brenda in mississippi. there is an out and in this

morning's washington examiner. conference zone is campaigning and not governing. he said, "you can only change washington from the inside -- outside." with a 60 vote supermajority in the senate, in 2010, obama could have pushed for an immigration bill. there was a decision not to bring such a measure to the floor. it would require some of her members to cast tough votes. she put through a cap and trade bill that also require some of her members to cast truck -- cast a tough and career ending votes.

next up, dallas, texas. jimmy is on our democratic line. caller: i plan to vote early. i have done my homework. host: is that by absentee ballot or you have to go someplace physically? next up is john on our line for independents. caller: i am all for it. we cannot do it here in new york. have to say you are gng reason. it makes sense in this day and age of house of the lies and all of the issues people are talking about that they cannot get to

the polls. if you do not know how you like by now, i cannot understand what is going to happen. these guys have been frothing at the mouth for two years. if you don't know where they stand by now, you are living on venus. host: you have made up your mind. who are you going to voted for? caller: barack obama. host: walking through the process that is one to take for you to go to your local polling place to vote. caller: luckily, where i level it is a suburban-rural. you can get in without a line and stuff. i live in and less populated place. in the cities, there and are not as many voting boots.

-- boothes. people have to wait an hour-and- a-half to cast their vote. host: from milwaukee, it is written, obama reprise his attack on mitt romney remarks he made behind closed doors characterizing obama voters as 47% of the population who depend on government handouts and do not pay federal income tax. we cannot get far if we assume half of the country is victims. wherever i travel, folks are working hard. back to the phones, west

virginia. carl is on our line for republicans. caller: i like going to the polls and voting because i am able to. the debate should have been held before the early voting started. we will have four liberal moderate this, which will skew the base. i think the voting public should be able to compare the two people side by side. i cannot believe -- when anne romney tells the truth, i cannot believe the -- when running -- when romney tells the truth, i cannot believe people do not want to hear it.

this is crazy. host: are you going to take advantage of early voting in west virginia? caller: i like going to the polls. it gives us a chance to get out and meet people in the community. i have no problem with early voting, as long as it is legal, as long as the people who are owed aim here legally to vote. whenever there -- as long as the people who are voting are here legally. host: a tweet says, i favor early voting so people can get a photo of their ballots so that the election cannot be stolen a la dollars w. bush times two.

the columbus bureau chief for the blade rights, as early vote approaches, ohioans will begin casting their ballots in nine days. the sand under their feet will shift as to when they can cast those votes. it might be a deciding factor as to who will reside in the white house for the next four years. courts have overturned early voting in the case directly preceding the election. the decision is under appeal and the rules could change even after voting began on october 2. back to the phones. baltimore, maryland. dorothy is on our line for

democrats. go ahead. calm i like early voting -- caller: i like early voting. mitt romney lies too much and he is a thief. devils.ike they come to kill and destroyed. host: this is from this morning's edition of the washington post. the headline, why is it so hard to register to voted? she writes, americans have been registering to vote since the 19th century. north dakotans do not have to register to vote. they can show up on election day. if most americans are not registered by october 9, they

will be shut out of this year plus all election. there are several states such as maine that allow the election day registration. she goes on to write, americans by now are accustomed to registration. to most people throughout the world, the u.s. system is mystifying. on the governments create eligible voter lists, in tabling the majority of their adult population to vote. the government maintains the role. -- the roll. victoria is the author of "day electoral dysfunction." it is in bookstores september 8. a documentary of the same name will air on pbs in october.

gary is on our line for republicans. caller: i will take or rounded. i think people who are in the military or on business overseas should be allowed to vote early. if they cannot get to the polls, they do not get to vote. host: this is lisa on our line for democrats. she is calling for either -- calling from iowa. go ahead, lisa. caller: i filled out my application to vote yesterday. my daughter ticket and put it in the mail and i am done. i filled out the affidavit. i voted absentee. this government needs to get on the ball and get us up to the

electronics. we have not used them. host: you are voting early. is that because you have already made up your mind or do you have been physical restriction? caller: i am 74 and i am not going to stand in line two or three hours. each one of us should be able to do it from our home. it is time we got up with the electronics we have got. host: in the washington post this morning, a report says laws may cut latino voting. civil rights groups are warning that as many as 10 million hispanics may be deterred from casting ballots because of changes to voting laws. the civil rights group, advancement project, cites the impact on newly restrictive

voter identification laws and late efforts to remove non- citizens from boulder -- voter rolls. lakewood, florida is where our next call comes from. desi is on the democratic line. caller: i am not a fan of early voting. i think it allows brought to run rampant. the constitution set it up so we could go there to vote and there would be no discrepancies. host: florida is one of those states where you can vote early. are your friends voting early? caller: no one i know is going to vote early. a concern that their vote may not count, get lost, or whatever

it may be. i will be voting for romney, as well most of my friends. host: final note from the washington post. the book festival has just the right tone. thousands of book lovers from around the region flocked to the mall on saturday for the national book festival, where readers rubble in books mean though happily -- revel in books mingled happily with those few had electronic readers in their hands. there was an appearance by a pulitzer prize-winning author. if you want to learn more about our coverage of the book

festival, go to our website, c- span.org. you can find out all you need to know if you are planning to go down and see it in person. coming up in this edition of the "washington journal." we will be talking to steve gonzales to talk about jobs programs for veterans. later, we have "newsmakers" coming up. the guest will be senator joe lieberman. we are going to show you what senator joe lieberman had to say on the vulnerability to cyber

attacks. he thinks iran is behind the cyber attacks, especially the one on bank of america and j.p. morgan chase. [video clip] >> we are under constant sniper attack, including large parts of our -- we are under constant cyber attack, including parts of our infrastructure that is supposed to be secure. the recent cyber attacks on major american financial institutions including bank of america and j.p. morgan chase is a powerful example of our vulnerability. islamic website, these attacks were announced. they explained the intention to attack the banks and the stock exchange as a reaction to the

anti-muslim video. i give you my belief. i do not believe these were just hackers who were skilled enough to cause a disruption to the web sites in cyberspace. i think this was done by iran, which has its own developing cyber attack capacity. i believe it was a response to the increasingly strong economic sanctions that the united states and our european allies have put on iranian financial institutions. if you will, it is a counterattack by iraq against an american financial institutions. in my opinion -- this is a theory, but it has a basis in

our treatment of iranian financial institutions. it was not a physical attack, it was a denial of services were you overload a website. it had an effect. it disrupted access to those sites for a while. host: you can see the entire interview with senator joe lieberman later on today at 10:00 a.m. following this program and at 6:00 p.m. on c- span. it is also available on our website act c-span.org -- at c- span.org. joining us at the table is william beach, co-author of the 2012 index on dependent on government.

he is here to talk to us about the index and what it measures. welcome to the program. guest: it is a pleasure to be back. host: tell us a little more about this index. we touched on what it measures. give us a feel for what we can find in here. guest: we are all dependent on somebody. at some time in our lives, you and i were both babies. we had complete dependence on our mothers. as we get older, we will be dependent on people who love us and care for us. dependence is nothing unusual. it is normal. there are times you lose a job, you have trouble, your church members help out. what we wanted to do in this index -- and we started it some time ago -- is to take a look at

the degree to which the federal government is providing the aid that used to be provided by families, churches, local communities and the degree to which it is increasing. we are not making a judgment on what the dependency is a good thing or a bad thing. we were trying to get our arms around the growth of the population, the growth of programs, the growth of the commitment to help people. we chose 47 programs that we think our deeply connected to the quality of a person's life. those are important things. you cannot get along without those. income assistance, which is important in your old age and through your working age. health care. the government is taking on more and more of a role in health care. and higher education. the new york times had a similar index. they chose 50 programs.

there 50 an hour 47 are almost completely identical. they chose to look and veterans benefits and those are the three programs that make the difference. last year, the new york times and heritage published within a week of each other and reached almost identical conclusions. that was that the growth of programs that provide aid to people warned the essential components of life are increasing remarkably. we are growing increasingly ofcerned about the rate growth. they, for 72% of all federal spending. when congress gets back, they will have to make some changes in some of these programs. people need to be aware that there is change coming. i am not here today to say that

dependence as good or bad. host: we are going to take our viewers and listeners through this and show some of the numbers and get you to explain a little about the numbers. the first group we want to show is regarding the 2013 index of dependence cover -- index of dependence on government. government dependency increase in 2011 by 3.28%. grants and retired in spending and 49% of the u.s. population does not pay income taxes. that has been the source of a lot of discussion. first the first number, that government dependents has increased by 3 1/4%. guest: that is the good news.

it has increased because of the great economic problems we have been through and the retirement of those people in the baby boom generation. those increases have been dramatic. one statistic you did not mention was that in the last four years, the index has gone up by 31%. the index was equal to 100 in 1980 and now the index is closing in on 240. it is a remarkable increase during that period. almost a 2 1/2 fold increase in the index. host: what you are talking about is illustrate in this graph. you mentioned 100 in 1980 and in 2011, up to 332.

as you can see from that graph, you can see that there are spikes in that period of time and there are periods of not so great increase. the index increased least during the 1980's and during the administration of william jefferson clinton. clinton and reagan are almost high in the flatness of their growth. we have had dramatic increase since the clinton demonstration. george w. bush expanded the programs that are in the index, 47 programs. he expanded medicare significantly through the drug benefit programs, medicare part d. -- part d.

since the barack obama was elected, elapsing congress further expand these programs. host: we are talking with william beach, the director of data analysis at the heritage corp.. we are talking about the 2012 index of government dependents. if you would like to talk to us, give us a call or send a message through social media. first our first call comes from tennessee. paul is on our line for republicans. caller: i have a comment at a question. i would like you to give me a chance to get them in. this president has come in and he has done exactly what he says

he would do. i hope everyone who voted for him have to starve to death so they can see what is the oil on in our country. things are not getting better, it is getting worse. this guy is pushing a health- care system on us and forces us to buy it. what are the troops fighting for it? when this president those around the world, gets on his hands and knees and beg for forgiveness for 9/11 and then hires every crop to be in his cabinet, what are we eecting -- crook in the world to be in his cabinet, what are we expecting? host: do you have a question? caller: all of the increases in these programs, does that not tell us that this man has taken money out of medicare to pay for obamacare?

guest: there are about one out of five americans who are involved in the index and are significantly dependent on these programs. that is about 70 million americans. we are a very wealthy country. so far, we have been able to afford all of that. these programs are the principal drivers of federal spending. $7 out of every $10 spent by the federal government comes to these programs. paul mentioned health care and i wanted to focus on that specifically. that is a big part of this index and a big part of the problem. host: according to your research, 13% of the dependencies and the people who are dependent on government are dependent in areas of health care and welfare. and 13% in housing. only 3% for retirement.

guest: there is a larger number of people in retirement, but the way to grow in retirement spending is fairly constant. that is probably due to population change. retirement, and that includes social security and medicare and if you are indigent and elderly that includes medicaid. those programs are seriously broken. you have had many guests on this program talk to you about the future of social security and medicare. they play a role of steady increase because the population goes up. medicate goes up as well, a little bit faster than the rate of growth in population. in a few years, this index is going to rocket as millions of baby boomers come into retirement. this has to change. what we want to do in the index is a lot of people.

if you think these programs are about evil and people need to have them -- and i am not disputing that -- these programs have to be reformed and they have got to be reformed right away. they are on an unsustainable financial past -- path. we have people who did not save on their retirement and they are going to be totally dependent on social security and medicare. host: own next call comes from wendy on our line for democrats. caller: this guy was part of this article that was written that said because people had microwave ovens and refrigerators and televisions that they were not poor. this is what you and your foundation on, to talk about the dependency on government and the

dependency on government should apply to everything and everybody. how about the oil industry? they have a dependency on the government. host: we will leave with their. we have a lot to work with. guest: there are the she points that he made. he is referring to another heritage analyst who has looked at the lifestyle of people who are attending public assistance. he kept on telling people in that lenny it and earned getting public assistance.

>> the number of people in the united states who get something significant from the government of a cash nature or in kind cash nature and that is one out of three americans, these numbers come directly from the census

bureau, we go through them very carefully and make sure we're not double-counting everybody so 128 unique americans, and i don't know about you or about myself, even, but that seems to me a very large number, and if we're worried about government spending that's a number that should alert the kinds of people who listen to your program. host: our next call for william beach from the heritage foundation comes from patrick, independent, calling from fort lauderdale this morning. good morning patrick. caller: yes good morning. i didn't see mr. beach talking about corporate welfare. i heard his spiel about people and dependency with microwaves. why doesn't he talk about the bankers that get fdic insurance but they have the penthouse suite offices, the limo-driven cars, they don't have their offices in the basement of their buildings or take the subway to work. host: patrick in fort lauderdale.

will william beach. guest: corporate welfare is a serious topic and an issue that congress needs to take up as they take up all these other issues. we can't afford corporate welfare any more than we can afford some of the programs i've been talking about without reforming them. a lot of corporate welfare, so called corporate welfare and these are deductions and exemptions and credits through the tax code come because we have a broken tax system. i think the answer is tax reform. president obama has proposed lowering the corporate tax rate in exchange for getting rid of many, not all, but many of the exemptions to deductions and credits. another place they come in is through the subsidies for particular kinds of products. take for example the subsidies which used to come in cash form but now in the form of a mandate for people who grow corn. and this is the big corporate farmers is what you're concerned about, patrick, well, i think that's something we should look at, too. certainly we want cleaner air. maybe there's a better way of

getting the gasoline mixed with these kinds of products which do produce that. but again, it comes at a cost, which you call corporate welfare. i don't disagree with that at all. i strongly endorse your concern and i think congress should take it up but unfortunately congress doesn't. congress is constantly at the being and call of our k street lawyers in washington, many of whom represent corporations because after all, corporations are fairly heavily taxed. a lower tax rate would definitely help that. mr. obama and many republicans have endorsed that in correcting the corporate welfare problem you put your finger on. host: we've got a tweet from decembery grace who writes dependence on government is a concern for the tax dodging gop base. please remind viewers that red states are the most dependent. guest: that's a good point.

there's more concentration of people in need, in the metropolitan areas, and to the extent that those metropolitan areas are in republican states, then he's certainly right about that. but again, most of the people who get this government assistance, like getting anything, rob, live in the major metropolitan areas, and some of those, well, i think new york city, new york state s. a very blue state and california, my goodness sakes, i was just there in los angeles and san diego and i must tell you, california is in as bad shape as we all hear it is and i hope that those in california listening to the program today will take it upon themselves to get to work on that state. what a great place and it's a shame to see it in the financial shape it's in host: back to the phones, melvin on the line for republicans, you're on the phone with william beach of the heritage foundation. go ahead. caller: good morning

gentlemen and thank you for bringing this problem to our attention. i agree with you, it's a terrible problem, dependency in this country. thank you very much. my question to you, sir, have you ever considered why this is really happening? is it because of our politicians? but isn't it related somehow to changing our economic system? it's become winner take all and the 99 percent versus the 1 percent. it's so difficult for a person to make a living today. have you ever factored in the coloration between this change in our system with your statistics? guest: thank you melvin, that's a great question and yes, we've thought about that. i think there are two things that stand behind the growth in the index. first is one that you didn't mention but i think it's really the most important, and that as we have turned to the federal government for providing the aid that is essential for a good life,

again, food, shelter, education, income support, those kinds of things, we have taken that responsibility out of our communities and the organizations that used to supply these aid programs are churches, our neighbors, local governments and many, many, many community organizations, from fraternal societies to mutual aid societies, no longer are there. so one of the reasons the index is growing is because the civil society is shrinking, and i'm a great advocate, as many people are, of reviving the civil society, regardless of wherever you are, of getting organizations like the catholic charities to nasa, to all the other aid organizations, back to work and really for them to shoulder responsibility. the second reason why the index has grown is because of the reason you mentioned, and that is the economy. it changes increasingly. we are a knowledge-based economy, in which the kind of

education you have, of a technical or intellectual nature, is really important to the job and the income that you receive. many americans have fallen outside of our educational system or gotten a poor education, and so their skill set is not adequate for the economy that we're living in. that's a real problem. and you see, you know, the inability to compete in the economy coming back to problems in the family. i'm very disturbed, as i'm sure you are, that we're seeing marriage decrease in the lower income portions of the income spectrum. when fewer and fewer people marry and then still have children, we begin to have problems of an inter generational nature as these children have greater conflicts with the criminal justice system and have educational problems themselves. many reasons why the index has grown and grown so dramatically, i think, following the decline of the

civil society. it is very important. and the economy is important. and as i just mentioned, derivative from the economy is the increasing failure of family life and family structure in the united states. host: breaker who writes under the handle cast iron straw sends us a tweet and says now he, meaning you, he's using code metropolitan in quotations means black neighborhoods. guest: well, i don't think it does. but excuse me if that is a code word. most of the problem, because of the racial composition of this country, is in the so-called white community. the black community has serious problems. we all know that. but in terms of the dependency index, they are about proportional to their population concentration. so we have the european

derived or caucasian community, the dominant one, latinos, people of spanish speaking origin, blacks. the asians are in here as well, though they are the smallest percentage. that's just a good guess. i honestly don't do a racial analysis of the dependency index. it would be interesting to do, but i don't think -- we're all americans, after all. we ought to approach the problem -- but if i used the code word, i guess i'm guilty but i'll try not to do it. host: back to the phones, with me in new york, sidney on the line for the democrats, thank you for waiting. caller: thank you. and just as the last caller's response, he cut on three points, which all are poison ous responses to which i'd just like to respond. firstly, the blacks versus the whites. seven times as many people that are black are sent to

prisoner for smoking marijuana, although the user rate is about the same. secondly he talks about the breakdown in civil society. i'm a cpa. i do tax returns for multi millionaires who ask me how much am i allowed to deduct on charity, and i tell them you'll have to deduct what you gave. well, put me down for $2000. so civil society is broken down because people don't have money in their pockets. not because the government is taking up too much of a responsibility. and the left one was yet -- there is a knowledge difference, okay? jack welch figured out, a very smart guy, figured out if you send jobs to china and you don't have electrohave people in america making a decent wage doing the same kind of work, as a result, we don't have jobs. we used to have a recession and you'd drop buying underwear because you didn't have money and you found a job and start buying underwear. now the underwear comes from

china, jeans come from china, sneakers come from chine use and i dare say even this guy's brain might be outsourced because he offers no solutions whatsoever. host: we'll leave it there. guest: you raise good points on criminal justice and the higher percentage of blacks than whites in the prison system. i'll leave that to my colleagues who are experts in that issue area. you're probably right, and we should address that question. the civil society is broken for a lot of reasons, one of which you mentioned, which is the financial problems and not getting enough deductions or so forth or contributions from people who have the money. but if you simply look at the number of organizations that used to be there all across the political spectrum, the religious and racial spectrum, as a percent of all

the organizations, the civil organizations are way, way, way down. they began to decrease in the 1960s, you can read robert putnam's famous book, "bowling alone" to look at the decline of the civil society and the eight organizations. it's more than financial, though. you have put your finger on one of the problems. with respect to underwear in china and ul of that -- and all of that, which is an interesting topic, sidney, we live in a world in which globalization is the firm reality of economic life and we're more and more going to find things we used to do being done by people who demand a lower wage but are in developing countries, where that wage is probably a very high wage relative to other wages. in the united states -- and the united states economy is moving more and more to a knowledge-based economy. i don't know whether we need as many workers in that economy as we currently have

available to us. that may be something we'll have to talk about. but it is the case that everyone who goes through our educational system now needs to be as trained as much as they're capable in doing knowledge-based work. and to the extent that they're not trained that way, they're going to fall behind and we're going to have them on the rolls of the dependency index at some future publication of that product. host: we've got a tweet from gary who i think addresses a little bit more of that. he writes until we restore manufacturing jobs in america, there will be a permanent underclass in america, must place tariffs or foreign goods. are you suggesting that we, that the united states, has sort of grown out of being a manufacturing state and that unless we can somehow harness the knowledge base, as a knowledge class or whatever,

as a tax base, that we're going to have a permanent group of folks who will always be dependent on government? >> i think we can manufacture products better than most countries can. except that we're just not going to manufacture some of the products we used to in the past. years and years ago, i was in missouri. i worked for state government. then when i started my life as an economist, i joined the administration of the governor, the first week i was on the job, the brown shoe company in news, the -- in st. louis, the last company in the united states that made shoes, closed its offices, in the dark of night, moved its equipment on to trains and reopened offices somewhere, in brazil, months later. five thousand people lost their jobs. that was in st. louis. a few months later the television company in the united states, zenith, closed its offices, moved to mexico, and those offices were in

springfield, missouri. okay, we don't manufacture televisions or shoes in the united states anymore. those are done in lower wage countries. but we can manufacture high technology for the equipment, manufacturing businesses are coming back to the united states as are energy -- as our energy costs are falling because of increased production, but they're very specialized manufacturing operations. does that mean that the person with the training to make shoes is going to find a job now in that manufacturing sector? no. they're going to also have to have specific new technical training. it doesn't always mean they're going to have to learn how to do calculus and speak french, but they're going to have to have better and more acute training than they used to have to be in the manufacturing sector. our manufacturing sector is high technology, it is in capital goods, it is in the kinds of things that we can do because of our scientific and technical knowledge. so i reaffirm my point.

i think manufacturing will grow in this country, but it willer of a different kind and it will be, quote unquote, for lack of time, we can't get into it, but quote unquote, knowledge-based. >> host: we're talking about william beach of the heritage center, a visiting fellow of the university of buckingham in great britain and is here to talk to us about the heritage foundation's report, dependency on government. you can find that on their website, heritage.org. back to the phones. west palm beach, florida, john is on our line for independents. john, thank you for waiting. caller: yes good morning. on the sabbath, god bless you mr. beach. the abuse that you've had to put up with these liberal social security unbelievable. the vial things that come out of their mouths. and they always say that conservatives are the bad people, the evil people. in any event, mr. beach, i have a question. i hope i don't get cut off to actually have the answer to this. when the new deal began in

1933, do you know what the federal budget was at the time? guest: in 1933, my goodness, i suspect it was just north of 2-$3 billion. caller: you are correct, it was three, 1/$3 billion in 1965 the beginning of the great society and medicare, because the new deal as we know started social security, and '65, it rose to $133 billion. i think we spend about $3 billion a day now. and so americans can't look at the facts, just the simple facts. i mean, they see you as the heritage foundation, a conservative group, an evil group, that can't just simply look at numbers, and the numbers are not sustainable. i mean, i'm from florida. i know what a hurricane looks like. i know what it's like to be without electricity for two weeks. just like people in louisiana. just wait until the weight of this government collapses. just wait until people are on

the streets looking for water. i mean, i hate to paint this mad max scenario but if we ever don't get a grip on the growth, especially $5 trillion, and mr. obama, president obama, has not even completed his first term -- >> host: john, we're going to leave it there. william beach, are we on their way to battling it out in the thunderdome? let's hope -- guest: let's hope not! anything is possible. but i think that in peoples' mind -- remember, you've got 70 million people who would be in pretty bad shape if these programs that we've been talking about this morning were not fully funded. well, we're going to have to cut back on spending. there's no other way we can really do this. i don't think even if taxes go up a lot on wealthy people, they won't fill the gap in our deficit, which is now a tr-ltd a year. so -- which is now a trillion dollars a year, so in other

countries where spending cuts have happened in the areas of shelter, housing, food, income support, there have been protests on the street. i don't think it would happen in this country, but let's just, you know -- we'll just -- we're not knocking on wood, we're knocking on a wood product here. the other thing that bothers me, and we haven't talked about this morning, is that while the index is growing, so is the percentage of people who are not paying income taxes. now, almost everyone pays taxes on their labor. this is through the social security system tax, the payroll tax, however people know that. host: right. guest: but we're getting to a situation where nearly half of all households and almost half of all individuals who could pay income taxes end up not paying income taxes why does that bother me. i'm all in favor of not paying income taxes. i think that's great. i wish i could get out from paying income taxes but the fact that i do pay income taxes makes me a better citizen.

i attend to what government is doing. when government says we're going to spend a trillion dollars, some of that i'm going to have to pay for through my payroll taxes, sure, but the payroll taxes are going for social security, medicare, programs that one day i'll participate in. but the income taxes are for the general government. so it bothers me when fewer and fewer people pay income taxes because that means more and more responsibility is shouldered by people in higher incomes. and that means they will buy lobbyists, they will buy organizations to represent them here in washington. and that just makes the situation worse. host: you mentioned that and there's been a lot written and spoken about the comments that governor romney made, and it's the point of two items in the paper this work. in the "washington post", on the right from their op-ed section, the myths about the 47 percent and on left, the commentary in the washington examiner, the truth about the

47 percent, and i would recommend that both can be read online by our listeners and viewers. on the right, in the "washington post", it says has mitt romney recently noted 47 percent of u.s. households don't pay federal income taxes. some see this as evidence of a welfare state run amock, others think that gimmicks and loopholes let both rich and poor americans duck their taxes. so my question to you is you say that more people should be paying federal income tax, so if you were to do that, how would you -- would you raise the level of income tax or would you close some loopholes and if you're going to close loopholes, which would you close? guest: first off i think we need to have tax reform and the tax reform should raise the necessary amounts of money for government. i'm an advocate of a single rate tax but let's just go to a two rate tax like ron wyden, democratic senator from oregon, has. he gets to a lower tax rate,

and two rates, so still a progressive system, by eliminating a host of deductions and credits and limiting others. he still has the mortgage interest deduction, the charitable deduction, he has the student financial aid, education conduction, so those things seem to be important, and in my tax reform those continue as well. but we get a lot of things that are not in there, the deductions on the business side for good will advertising. some of the immediate expensing that -- or some of the delayed expensing that you get on the business side. i would get rid of that. and when we get rid of all these deductions and credits, the tax base is bigger. that means rates can be lower and people can pay taxes at lower rates. a 10 percent tax rate is going to be tough for some people and they shouldn't pay if it's going to be too tough. but for people with incomes of 50, 60, $70,000, paying,

after their deductions, after their family credits, after their personal deductions, paying $1000 in income tax brings them into the system. on the same hand, we need to have a better social security, medicare and health care system so family costs are not as low. a host of reforms, rob, we need to make. but let's focus on the tax system and let's make sure that that's fair and let's make sure we get as many people involved in that as possible. it should be a democratic deal. we have a democratic system for electing government, why should we have an eliteist system for financing it. that's the wrong of government to have. host: bill, on the republican line, you're on the washington journal. caller: i have a comment and hopefully a fair question and i can't wait to hear what the answer might be. the people, the ladies and

gentlemen listening to this could take out a dollar bill sometime today, a dollar bill is 6 inches wide. if you were to take that dollar bill and cut approximately 2 1/2 inches, a little bit more, it's really two and 5/8 inches off of that dollar bill, that's how much money we're borrowing. that's how much money that we don't have to spend. my question now for mr. beach is if we end up down the road, whether it's next week or next month, cutting off another half inch, or in this case, to be exact, 3/8 of another inch off of that dollar bill, what is going to happen to this country? thank you for listening. guest: thank you very much. it's a grave concern. everyone who hears -- who cares about the future of the

country and rate of growth of our economy needs to be concerned about the total level of public debt. maybe i should just say this, rob, so everybody can kind of get into it. the deficit is the amount each year that we have to borrow because our revenues don't keep up with our spending. so you have a deficit, when your spending is above your revenues, and the deficits have been because of the recession and because of these programs we've been talking about, broken programs. right around a trillion dollars. that's a lot of. a lot of people know lebron james. he makes $46 million a year. he would have to work 28,000 years to make his first trillion dollars. a trillion dollars is an enormous amount of money. now, every time we have a deficit, that adds to the debt. so the debt is the running total of all the deficits, and right now the total deficit of the united states, owned by the public, owned by other agencies of the federal government, is equal to the size of the economy. when it gets that level, most

economists will tell you that no country has failed to slow down. so when the size of your debt gets to be above 70 percent the size of your economy, then the economy slows. so if you're worried, if you're a democrat, you should be definitely worried because president obama is your guy, if you're republican, romney is your guy, i suppose, you should be worried about the pace of the economy and the size of the debt. so let's all worry about the future of the economy and take this debt seriously. host: back to the phones, in new york, michael on our line for democrats. thank you for waiting michael michael, you there? all right. let's move on to fresno, california, tony is on our line for independents, tony, you're on the "washington journal". caller: hi, this is tony. host: go ahead tony. caller: i'm in the middle of

california, a great venue, of our culture out here. my question to mr. beach is that it doesn't matter what partyies now or will be, republicans or democrats, you know, outsourcing has been incredibly taken over and there are no jobs out here. the shoe industry is no longer here, it's no longer in existence, the tv industry, no longer here. so my question to mr. beach is can we bring the jobs back here. i know there are -- >> host: we're going to leave it there tony. mr. beach, go ahead. guest: the answer is we can create jobs here. some jobs are gone forever. this country will never be a place where shoes will be made again.

he i just don't think -- i just don't think so. i hope not because those are very low wage jobs. same with manufacturing or assembling television. things i talked about from my own personal experience. some jobs we don't haven't to come back but we have everybody who wants to work involved with a skwraufpblt how does that happen? the world economy that we're now involved in is causing all these problems of ought skwrorsing -- outsourcing also offers opportunity. entrepreneurs in this country will look out at the world and say look, we've got americans who are trained to do the following things. maybe very well trained in electronics, assembling and working with electronics, in a high, scientific way. we'll make this particular product. well, it takes off, turns out that that becomes a computer chip. computer chips are still made in parts of the united states it could be some other chemical product. but what we need to have is

more innovation and entrepreneurship to discover what products those are, what can we manufacture here. when that occurs, entrepreneurs, innovators, create jobs and that will bring us back to the kind of full employment we really want to have. host: our guest has been william beach of the heritage foundation, he is the director of the center for data analysis and if you want to find out more about what he's been working on, go to their website, heritage.org, and you can find everything that you're looking for. thank you for being on the program. guest: my pleasure entirely, thank you. ho hos next up on the "washington journal", steve gonzalez from the american legion will discuss job programs for veterans and later in the program we'll be talking about eric tragger for the washington institute who will be providing an update on the antiamerican anger in the middle east. you're watching the "washington journal". today is sunday, september 23rd, and we'll be back in just a few minutes.

>> when i first came to washington i didn't know what an i.g. did. my experience was as a prosecutor, we seldom, occasionally, were brought into the law enforcement arms. they would be our agents and for a while i was doing mortgage fraud cases. i had started up a mortgage fraud unit and dealing with the inspector generals from hud, which were very good law enforcement agents but i didn't know the big picture

of what an i.g. was doing and when i got the job, when i came down, one of the first things diwas meet the different i.g.s, and starting with those meetings and really over the next couple of years, i found that the i.g.s, as we call them, inspector generals, unfortunately, while they're supposed to be these fierce watchdogs looking out for waste, fraud and abuse, those are imagineig words written into their statute and what they're supposed to be doing had really become or were often just like any other governmental agency, their number one concern was the budget, how to preserve their budget, they were very worried about clashing with management, they were very worried about too much interactions with congress, and it was really very much a go along, get along type of attitude, that what i kept hearing over and over again, there were three different types of i.g.s, a lap dog who would presumably curl up on the lap of management, the watchdog n. between and junk yard dog and i think ultimate -- ultimately when i was

going through the confirmation process i was told by senator raucus, head of the finance committee which oversaw my confirmation hearings that i needed to be a junk yard dog. >> uncovering fraud and abuse and the $700 billion t.a.r.p. bailout program. more from his book, "bailout", tonight at 8:00 on c-span's q & a. >> today, millions of students are paying less for college, because we finally took on a system that wasted billions of taxpayer dollars using banks and lenders as middle men. we said let's give the money directly to students and we've been able to help millions of more young people get an education. >> we have got to make sure our workers have the skills they need for today and that our kids are being an education that will allow them to compete tomorrow and that means it's time for us to put the kids and their parents and the teachers first and the teachers union behind. its interests are very

different. >> the first debate between mitt romney and president obama is less than two weeks, wednesday, october 3rd, jim l eir is commentator. >> "washington journal" continues. >> steve gonzalez is with the american american legion, assistant director of the economics division sand here to talk to us about jobs programs for veterans and those that currently exist and proposal that is have been considered in this session of congress. welcome to the program. guest: thank you for having me, rob. host: first let's talk about the status of unemployment

among veterans, and post-9/11 veterans, to be specific. the national average for unemployment is about 8.1%, for all veterans, 6.6%, which is a little better but for post-9/11-era vets, almost 11 percent. kwr-z it so high for guys coming back from iraq and afghanistan? guest: one of the reasons why it's become a little harder for veterans, the new veterans coming back, one is some of the barriers that veterans are facing. some of the barriers have to do with veterans having a little bit harder time transitioning their skills where employers in the private sector can understand what veterans have done in the military but also what skill sets they bring not just to the applicable but also to the private sector.

so take us through the programs that exist currently for veterans, especially those coming back who were trying to transition out of the military and into the civilian work force. guest: you have, for instance, in the federal government, the veterans' preference is one particular program that assists veterans and assists higher managers to look at veterans who have served in a -- served in different conflicts, earned certain campaign medals and the higher medal -- higher managers can give them an opportunity and have them hired among other veterans within the work force. you also have veterans who have been -- there's just -- there are disabilities, 30 percent or above, where the higher -- hiring managers can use that as a different tool to be able to hire the veterans, noncompetitive, and bring them into the work force and there is no

limitation to the general service level in which they can bring them into the work force, thus allowing the veterans not just to bring it to the work force but the federal government to tap into the work that the veterans brings. there are several other programs to help veterans be able to come into the federal work force, but also, the private sector is looking to other ways and other platforms to bring veterans into their work force as well. host: now, there were several bills that were up on capitol hill being considered in this session of congress before the senate and house went back to their states and their districts regarding jobs programs for veterans. talk to us about the progress or lack thereof on those bills. guest: first, the american legion, we're a nonpartisan organization. we're an organization who is willing to work with both

sides of the house to create comprehensive job bills that would allow for veterans to be provided every opportunity to be successful, in whatever they consider success to be. with the issues that have about him politicized within society, within the actual senate or for that matter, the house, we believe it's -- from the american legion's standpoint, is that republicans and democrats should come together and be able to create -- come together as a bipartisan political party, especially when we talk about veterans, to create a comprehensive job package that would allow veterans to be employed on -- especially the veterans coming back to a declined unemployment rate. host: we're talking about steve gon valueez -- gon zal eds, of the american legion, based in washington, d.c. he's here to talk to us about jobs programs for veterans. if you want to get involved in the conversation, 202-626

-- sorry, 202-737-ooo1 for democrats, republicans, 202-737-ooo2, independents, 202-628-0205. we have a special line this morning for veterans. give us a call, 202-628-0184. again, that's a special line for veterans, 202-628-0184. and you can also get in touch with us by social media, e-mail, twitter, and facebook so does military training count as job qualify indication when the vets are going to look for jobs or is that something that is sort of set aside, and it's what can you do for me now? guest: as it currently stands right now, of course with the passage of the veterans skills to jobs act, that was a bipartisan bill which was

introduced by congressman walls, this is actually to break down the walls that you were talking about. licensing, mostly in the aerospace and myrrh i time fields, to be able to look at that military training, look at the military education, as well as experience, to be able to allow them to assess that and then of course, allow them to work in aircraft mechanics, coming out of the military, where they can go work for the airlines, whereas the faa will grant them their license , and those that have the particular training and qualifications that the faa has created, the eligibility. some of the veterans that the -- skills that the veterans have, unfortunately in certain states, that creates a barrier where certain states, licensing boards or credentialing boards, do not view this as a standard or

view this as a particular requirement to meet the standards that they need to be able to give them these particular certifications, which allows veterans not to be employed with the skill sets that they've acquired by being in the military. caller: our first call for steve gonzalez, anthony, you're on the washington journal, go ahead. caller: whoa! that symbol, that's wonderful my question is very simple. i'm a vet of the united states. an older vet. and i'm wondering why our percentage went up as far as being hired. one thing is i realized that we would always be hired, because we give our life for the united states.

and for any human being, not to respect that is a shaoeupl and that is my comment. host: that's anthony in washington, d.c. we've got a tweet from mac who says as a former vet i see returning vets manning our police force before proper rehab. is that a problem that you see, steve gonzalez? guest: thank you, mac, for your service. as far as rehab. i don't think every veteran needs to go to rehab in that sense, but what i will say is is it a problem, i think every police force within the united states also have standards to where they assess their particular veteran who is coming into the work force and as they actually are able to clear them and ensure that they meet those standards and requirements that are necessary to go into the police work force, then i

think that that veteran is not a problem to the safety of society or the public, nor to the police force as they've been vetted through the police force. now, if the veteran needs assistance medically, then the veteran can go to the nearest v.a. hospital, always contact the nearest dso, department service officer, within the american hraoeupblgon post, and seek out assistance or additional assistance medically if need be. host: and a reminder, we have a special line for veterans, 202-628-0184. if you're a vet calling in and belong to an american legion post, by all means, let us know where the post is and what the number is. flemington, new jersey. bliss is on our line for republicans. is that bliss or bif? caller: bif, host: go ahead, biff. caller: two of my sons are in

the marine corps, one is currently separated, and a two-part question regarding his situation right now. if they are not getting satisfaction for treatment of injuries sustained during the service with a local v.a. hospital what avenues do they have available to them? and because of this disability that he has, he's unable to really have a work in the standard work force. starting up a job, a business on his own. what opportunities are available in that regard? host: steve gonzales. guest: first, thank you for your sacrifices to this country and to answer the first question, the treatment, if they're not receiving the treatment that needs to be done, that they actually need through the

v.a., what you can do you is go to your local legion post, and every legion post has what we call a department service officer who can actually help your son or any veteran for that matter, regardless of whether you're a legion member or not, to assist you for create that package, but also, to ensure that veteran -- they are an advocate on their behalf and ensure that your son or any veteran for that matter can get the right treatment as necessary, that they actually need through the v.a. and these are some of the avenues that you can actually take to help your son, and like i said, any veteran who needs assistance, navigating through the bureaucracy of the v.a. to ensure they are able to access that treatment that they need post transition in the military. the second part to your question about opening up and being an entrepreneur i would say the small business administration or sba does

have programs definitely for veterans who want to be entrepreneurs and it's called the patriot loan. the patriot loan, what it was necessary and created for is to allow veterans who have that entrepreneurship, the ability to access capital and be able to open up the business and be successful, and just case in point would be within america, you have roughly about 3.7 million small business owners who love veterans, who employ about 7 million employees across the country and who contribute $1.1 trillion to the economy. so this small business administration will be probably the best avenue to go about for your sons or any veterans for that matter to be able to access capital, to be an entrepreneur and live that american dream. host: next up is laura on our line for democrats, calling from salt lake city this morning. go ahead. caller: yes, i worked at the v.a. for 30 years and i also went to desert storm, i was in the reserve for 30 years, and i wanted to say that

besides getting jobs, it's important that the american legion really push that the veterans get their disability quickly. you get social security quickly if there's a traumatic illness but when the men have been traumatized for so long, they need to get disability quickly and be able to take care of their families. what we experienced is the marines would come home but they couldn't go to work right away but they didn't have any money to take care of their family, so many of them kill themselves, because they were able to do so much for so long and now they couldn't even take care of their family. guest: -- host: that's laura in salt lake city, utah. steve gonzalez. guest: thank you for your service on multiple levels, also working for the v.a. for so long, and we understand the jobs is a big portion to ensure that veterans,

regardless of what generation they're from, it is kind of a preventative measure to lead it other things that will prevent the suicide or homelessness that takes it to neither spectrum. as far as the disability claims, the american legion is working hard with the v.a. but also with members of congress to ensure the v.a. is speeding up the disability claims and one, adjudicating the disability claims in a timely manner where the veteran doesn't have to wait a year or two years prior to them receiving the benefits that they have earned or i should say -- i shouldn't say they earned, that they have actually been able to -- that the v.a. deems them necessary to have and these are some of the things the american legion is working with, and once again, if there is an issue, i would say contact your local american legion, post, within the communities, which is of course, roughly one in every community for that matter, that allows for

the american legion not just to advocate on a national level but down to the most local of local levels within the united states to ensure that every veteran can file disability claims but also, be able to be adjudicated in a manner that they can receive their benefits in a timely manner. host: back to the phones in conway, arkansas is where we get our next call. this is from delmar, identifying himself as a veteran. go ahead, delmar. caller: yes. host: you're on the "washington journal". caller: well, the problem is is that many people have not the skills to enter this evolving technological work force, and the decreasing manual labor work force, and a lot of them are military people. you know, they are given skills to defend america, but they don't have the skills to work in america. it's kind of a paradox, as

you might say. we do not provide our veterans with the technical certifications to correspond with their skills that are given to dependents in this country to come back and work in it country and not even including the disability rehabilitation that's involved, but so many different diseases and physical impairments that they have to deal with coming back. host: we'll leave it there. steve gonzalez. guest: i would say as far as the skills and credentials, which i had briefly commented on, on speaking with rob, as far as credentials go, the department of defense is really working hard with a lot of the other departments, department of transportation, department of energy, to name a couple, to ensure the analyses and crosswalks are able to do it.

i know, for instance, the american legion is working closely with the department of defense and the department of transportation to ensure that we can bring in the industries, bring in the national governors association, all together and try to address these issues with regard to the skill sets and the credentials, so veterans, they can either get their credentials while in training or as post military transition out, whatever it might be lacking, they can actually achieve that using their g.i. bill, of course, where the education component comes into play to ensure veterans can be qualified, can meet those standards that the skilled work force -- i mean the manufacturing or the private sector is looking for in those skill sets, which veterans and service members bring to the table. host: we have a tweet, this from jim at lake gatton who wants to know what's the difference between the american legion and the vfw?

guest: to answer that question, there is not really much difference in the sense other than the infrastructure, i would say, of the american legion and vfw, we both have posts down to the local levels, we both provide a service in the sense of giving back to the communities, helping veterans be reintegrated back into the communities, and service to country, of course. the only difference, and i would say, is what congress has mandated as far as eligibility goes, is where vfw, you actually have to have served in a combat area, or have obtained a campaign medal which makes you eligible for the vfw. now, the american legion eligibility is as long as you have served in a particular time era or conflict, whether you've actually served in that theater or you've, for whatever reason, have served and was not able to be deployed, and as long as you

serve honorably, you are able to join the american legion, which that is where the american legion comes into play, that we are here to serve all veterans and we've taken all veterans that have served honorably, as long as you meet those standards set forth by congress and mandated by congress. host: our guest is steve gonzales, assistant director of the economics division at the american legion. you talked a little bit about being in the marine corps. tell us a a little bit about your service and how you were able to transition from military service into civilian life and how you ended up as the assistant director of the economics division. guest: i served seven years in the marine corps. i was in the combat arms, as that, of course, that's one of the biggest military occupations, where people are very concerned about, and then of course how you transition, what you've learned as an infantry man, whether you're in the army, as they call it, and for ma

matter, the marine corps, we were the grunts, the ground pounders, the ones on the front lines day in, day out, and for me, that transition, luckily for me, i come from a family of military personnel, so when i transitioned out, i had two older brothers who had served in the military, they were able to provide that support, that work, so that when i did get out of the military they were there to assist me with what was available to me, but of course i would say the other thing that assisted me in transitioning out would be the transition assistance program, that's provided to all service members, especially now, and it's a program where you're actually giving instructions or you're giving briefs by -- you're given instructions, briefs by the department of labor, v.a., on what's available to you, what resources are there for you, whether it's transitioning into work, education, and the combination of the two allowed me, so when i did transition out, allowed me to, one, be able to figure out what i want to be,

transitioning out of the military, what was the next step for me in reintegrating but also, trying to become a leader within the community, to also help other veterans be able to do the same and walk that same path. and i decided, of course, to go to college. what assisted me to do that would be the g.i. bill, of course. and i think now the american legion, and i should say the american legion always has an voice for all veterans to ensure that any veteran transitioning out can have that same support system, regardless of whether you're in rural america or urban america, you can have the same opportunities for you as an individual to go back into society and become whatever you want. unlimited opportunities. regardless of what path you decide to choose. host: back to the phones and our conversation with steve gonzalez of the american legion regarding jobs programs for veterans. our next call comes from mobil, alabama on our line for republicans. tony, you're on the

"washington journal". guest: yes, my name is tony and i have been in roofing contracting for 25 years, and i've hired veterans before and folks coming out of the military, but with our illegal immigration problem we've had, folks are just hiring them and every time i go to bid a job i'm underbid, so i can't hire these folks anymore. and it's not just here. it's happening all across the country. i've had to travel for all of my work in the past four years, but it just makes it hard for us to try to hire the military. you know, it's just sad. sad. host: steve gonzalez. guest: thank you for making the effort to hire as vet -- as many veteran as possible. illegal immigration, i would say it's not a particular issue that we're involved in. we looked at and we fall i

would say to the government and once they figure out what approach they're going to do for that, that's something the government -- it's their -- i would say their chance or their duty to understand what's going on and how to figure that out. as far as the american legion goes, we will continue to advocate now not just in this sector but in all sectors to ensure the hiring of veterans can be accomplished in a manner that allows veterans to be hired, be employed and allows them the opportunity to have progress within their particular career professions that they choose. host: next up is bradley, illinois, josh on our line for independents. josh you're on the "washington journal". go ahead. caller: yes. i just got a -- you know, we have these veterans, coming back from wars, and they can't find a job, they can't get treat fod their injuries or whatnot, but our government is giving billions

of dollars to foreign aid to these countries where our veterans are at, that come back home, even though they got hurt over there. so why can't we take some of that money we're giving to foreign aid and invest it into our military? you know, i mean, i just think, you know, that the work force for them would be so much -- so great, you know, they'd get all the training they need and everything else if we would just take some of that money we're giving to other countries that don't really care about our veterans and invest it into our veterans. guest: the jobs corps bill, the veterans jobs corps bill that did not get through the senate this past week had a cost of $1 billion over five years, so steve gon valueez, tell us where does some of that $1 billion, where would it go if the bill had passed? guest: if the bill was passed it would go to a conservation type of jobs program. so anything from things that are required for veterans coming back, and of course, these particular programs

would have been working on lands, working on parks and things of that nature, where we're required for normal jobs that would have otherwise been -- not done -- notices done from painting houses, cleaning parks, anything like that, in that nature. i think a lot of those jobs, also training of police officers, firefighters, so it would have went to a lot of those middle class type of professions that would help veterans transition and reintegrate back into society once again. and that's where the cost of that would have went into, to help veterans find employment host: back to the phones, port ritchie, florida, andy on the line for democrats. go ahead, andy. caller: how you doing. thank you for your service. i'm a veteran. i was in the cuban missile crisis. i was down here in florida. and i was in a hawk outfit and if they fired a nuclear weapon at us, our missile had

to knock it out here. but i'll tell you the real truth of what's going on with the jobs today. see, when i came out of the army, there were factory jobs, any kind of job you wanted. now these, what do they call themselves, pioneers are outsourcing jobs. i always thought that lewis and clark were pioneers, i never knew mitt romney was a pioneer. but if you'd bring some of these jobs back, i mean, they say that oh, we have to have skills. what skill is there to put a head on a doll or on arm of a doll and pay a guy a decent salary, give them social security, medicare. you know what i mean? i love our country, man, i really love t it hurts me so much to see what's going on today. host: steve gonzalez, your thoughts. guest: thank you for your service. i would say manufacturing jobs, things of that nature, have been managingo increasing and emerging in the united states, last year,

roughly 200,000 jobs in the manufacturing industry was unable to be filled, not because the jobs were not there, but unfortunately the manufacturing industry of the high skill level that they're requiring or they needed to tap into was unable to tap into the veteran community because of the whole credential or certification process that these veterans would have to obtain. and of course, it's not their tpaurblgts it's a matter of training and making sure the training is equivalent to what the civilian sector and industry is looking for and of course, if we can break down some of these barriers and making the veterans and the service members be credentialled, licensed and certified against these barriers, that would allow the veterans to transition from the military into the work force, allowing not just the veterans to bring that skill back to america and strengthen, of course, america's economy, but also allows for the industries themselves to tap into a

great skill work force. and of course, let's be honest, the department of defense is the best training ground to train some of the finest and greatest men and women to be able to -- to be in this particular society. host: next up, a call from rick, a veteran calling from nashville, tennessee. rick you're on the "washington journal" with steve gonzalez of the american legion. caller: i appreciate you taking my call. i would just like for steve to shed some light on the jobs bill that was killed in congress this week. i understand four congressmen voted it down after the changes were made that they idea indicating they would vote for it and then when it came up for a vote they killed it, and that won't come up again until next year

and it's easy for these people to give lip service to the veterans and then turn around and do what they did to this bill. thank you. host: steve gono gonzalez, go ahead. guest: i would say even though the gil in the eyes of the public was killed and not able to pass with a 60 vote, i will say this does allow for the democrats and republicans to once again come back together, sit at the tail and ensure that they can come back to the drawing board and look at what were the provisions within the bill that did not allow them to pass and for that, to ensure that when they do come back together, they can work on a bipartisan, come together in creating a comprehensive veterans job package bill that can once again be represented, once they come back off the resets and the elections and continue to stay strong for veterans and hopefully pass a

bill once they do come back, whether it's towards veterans day or maybe after veterans day but ensure they can come back and create a veterans jobs package bill that all members of congress can rally behind and stay strong for veterans and create an additional opportunity for veterans to be employed and to be able to bring that skill to the american work force. host: our next call, mary, on the line for republicans, calling from wassah, wisconsin this morning. go ahead. caller: good morning and thank you for your service. i just am really concerned about the welfare of the veterans once they get into the v.a. hospital. and mitt is the only one that seems to be concerned about taking care of the people in the v.a. hospital. he's the only one that's been on the stump talking about it. and obviously, he can't talk about it every time because there are so many issues he needs to bring up, but his son is a physician, i believe he finished his residency and

went through the v.a. system and worked there, and my husband is a physician, they know what needs to be done, and mitt is sincerely, you know, he's got a big heart, and really deeply cares about the veterans, and he's the only one that's going to do this. you know, obama has had the opportunity to take care of people. well, he's not taking care of people. you look at his taxes, he has given hardly anything to the poor. host: and we're going to leave it there. we're getting a little bit off track. steve, anything in there you want to respond to? guest: i would say, mary, the american legion is working hard to ensure the welfare of all veterans are taken care of, and all v.a. facilities, which we also have -- usually we have legion members throughout the united states who volunteer the time at v.a. medical centers. also, the american legion does do random inspections of facilities to ensure the welfare of veterans and their care at v.a. facilities are being as top notch as possible to help veterans

with their medical care at these v.a. facilities and they're being able to have these -- their care is being taken care of, as top priority as possible as all v.a. medical facilities. host: and wayne is on the line for independents. caller: i have -- we are sending trade to the biggest country, china, and thank you for your service to our country. host: wayne, we'll leave it there. steve gonzalez. all right. let's move on to plankenton, south dakota. we've got aaron on our line for veterans. aaron, is that right? flankenton? caller: yes. host: where is flankenton, south dakota? caller: a small po-dunk town.

host: what branch of the service were you in? and what's your question for steve gonzalez. caller: how can we have so many homeless veterans here in south dakota? guest: well, let's expand that to the growth or the explosion, i guess, of homeless veterans all over the country, not only just in south dakota. guest: i would say that the issues of homeless veterans, which, once again, we do -- and that's the division i work out of. i have a colleague but also our division ensures that the fighting for the veteran homelessness and to work with president obama's administration for the 2015, five-year plan to decrease the homeless veterans and the chronic homeless veterans, we continue to fight, to ensure the hud bash is properly

funded which allows veterans to be able to find housing or proper house thank allows them to be reintegrated back into society. also -- and homeless veterans throughout the united states, it is an issue that we're impacting but also, the american legion has taken up, where we have a past national commander, ron connelly, in pennsylvania, who runs five different homes that helps veterans -- homeless veterans come in, find the proper housing, be able to retrain them and then of course, allow them to be reintegrated back into society, of course. the legion has also taken this up in connecticut where they're in the process of building a $5.2 million home that's going to house 18 veterans, homeless veterans, of course, a training center, and to assist them with the whole reintegration process of remaining them, getting them to the point where they can go back and be able to obtain a skill and be able to

go back into society and be employed and give back to society. host: part of the veterans job corps bill that did not get through, as you mentioned before, talked about a loosely modeled recreation of fdr civilian conservation corps, bill beatty who sent us a tweet, has this comment, he says that local governments are not taking care of parks. we need more cops with crime going down. i guess the point is would be the moneyer better served in putting veterans in areas of law enforcement than having them actually working in parks and -- national parks and things like that. guest: i would say that with that, whether that's the truth or not, whether veterans would be better served as police officers or firefighters, that is maybe a reason why the senate has to

come back and really relook at this and ensure that they're able to take a look at and assess what has been put into the bill, and if it is looking at the crime stats, and looking at that we need more police officers, maybe that's a reason we need to come together once again to work up these issues and assure the money is being properly spent and we're putting veterans to work in positions that will better served the public and society and the country as a whole. guest: pittsburgh, pennsylvania, where we get our next call, gladys on the line for democrats. go ahead, you're on the "washington journal". caller: good morning, sir, and i salute you for your service. why is it that the republicans are always the flag wavers, yet, they're the ones that blocked the vote to help the vets get jobs? if romney-ryan should get in, ryan's budget will cut 11 billion from the vets. president obama increased v.a. funding by $141 billion.

i'm -- i feel horrible that you guys do what you do to help this country and keep us safe and then you get a bunch of republicans that block the vote. >> gladys in pittsburgh. >> all i would say is this. the american legion, being once again nonpartisan, we're willing to work with both democrats and republicans to ensure that the v.a. is safe, of course, dod is safe, their budgets are in tact to ensure we can provide the best training, best medical quality to workers once they transition out, and we're willing to work with both parties, and we ensure that they're able to hear our voice and we continue to advocate on behalf of veterans and will always do

whatever it takes to protect the best welfare of the veterans within our society. now whether we're going to get into the politics of this particular question, once again, the american legion is nonpartisan. we're willing to work with both sides of the aisle. both sides of the aisle have great ideas, great points to make and we're willing to work with both to ensure we can always, always, come up with the best and comprehensive packages to help veterans, regardless of what area that might be in, from education, to home loans, to protecting veterans' medical care. all these issues, we will continue to advocate on behalf of veterans, regardless of what administration has been elected by the people into the white house or as part of the legislative branch of government. host: talking about steve gonzales of the american legion, assistant director of the economics division there at the legion. you got a b.a. in international studies from queens university in charlotte, north carolina. our last call comes from new

jersey, patrick is on our line for veterans. patrick, where in new jersey are you calling from? >> i'm in pickitinney. host: and where is that? caller: near morristown. host: okay, that clears everything up! go right ahead with your question or comment. caller: i just want to tell steve, i retired after 22 years as an infantry man and thank him for his service to our country. host: patrick, are you still with me? what was your transition like after you got out of the service? caller: could i just say one thing? i'm just a little irritated with the entitlements that veterans have, because like i said, i served 22 years, i

got out without any disability whatsoever, and i work in the d.o.d. right now and i just see so many people that are looking for disability and it just irritates me. host: all right, patrick in new jersey. steve gonzales, you get the last word. guest: what i would say is this, rob. american legion, since 1919, of course, and since the creation of the service members act, that we play a role in that -- in what is better known as the g.i. bill, has helped create a middle class after world war ii. the legion will continue to ensure that. we will provide every opportunity, every option, to any -- especially to this generation of veterans transitioning out to society to be able to -- to be able to aallow them to be

successful, whatever is that definition and ensure the individuals can be the new leaders, can strengthen the economy, and leaders of pillars in our community and that's what this is about, strengthening, not just about veterans but also this country and what we have all fought to defend and protect. host we've been talking about steve gonzalez of the american legion. if you want to find out more about what the legion does, who they are and how they might be able to assist you if you're a veteran, go to legion.org. steven gonzalez, thank you for being on the program. guest: thank you for having me. host: after this break we'll be talking to eric trager from the american institute, here to update us on the antiamerican anger going on in the middle east. you've been watching the "washington journal". we'll be right back.

former virginia governor tim kaine and former senator george allen faced each other thursday night in one of four scheduled senate debates, the political report rates this race a, quote, tossup. >> the he said that 47 percent of americans are too dependent on government, that they see themselves as victims. i ask you pointedly, do you share that vision of america? and what specifically would you do to deal with that 47 percent? >> as i stated at the beginning, david, the best social program of all is a job. how do you provide more job opportunities for people? it's by having -- >> you think half the country can see themselves as victims because they're too -- >> no, i look very positively at the people of -- >> do you agree with governor -- >> excuse me. >> would you disagree with governor romney on this point? >> i have my point of view and my point of view is the people of america still believe in the american dream and our responsibility as leaders, as public servants, is to make sure this is a country where everyone has

that equal opportunity to compete and succeed and pursue their dreams. and so the way i look at it is -- and i'll expand on it later in our debate, i suppose, but the point is i think that as you look at the records, who has created more opportunities, i mentioned welfare reform. those are folks who were down and out and temporarily needed help. we want to help folks who are able-minded, able-bodied, even those who are disabled want to work. i think that's a natural -- one of the great attributes and characteristics of all americans. they don't look at themselves as victims. they want a government that reflects their values and gives them the opportunity to reach their aspir sayings -- aspirations and be that role model. >> take a minute for rebuttal here. >> i don't think the question of whether governor romney's statements, you agree or disagree with them is hard. i think it's very straightforward. they were divisive comments and we are a state that's seen over our history too many divisive politics.

>> monitored by david gregory, this is courtesy of wrcv tv in washington, d.c. watch the entire debate monday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. if you were trying to write a story about a couple, about their intimate lives and what happened during and after their relationship, the lincolns offer us just limitless possibilities. and i used to think that it was so unique because working on abraham lincoln, one gets into that mesmerized doris goodwin staring at the picture, you know, mariah coleman, looking at her beautiful work, and you do get mesmerized about this thing about lincoln and you start wondering about why did mary do this for lincoln but then i'm able to see in the world around me that there have been other presidential wives, other women of privilege, who have been

accused of illnesses. i mean, i use the great quote, princess diana defense, was she not a daughter of privilege? was she not someone who had a tempestuous courtship, criticized for her fashion? >> catherine clinton on the troubled life of mary todd lincoln, later today, 7:30 p.m. eastern and pacific on c-span three. >> "washington journal" continues. >> eric trager is a mixed generation fellow with the washington institute and is here to talk about us about antiamerican anger in the middle east. welcome to the program. guest: thank you for having me. host: you were in egypt during the 2011 antimubarek revolts. talk to us about the feeling that was going through egypt at that point and how it has

sort of translated or permeated into what's coming out of egypt today. guest: thanks again. you know, i think you have to see what's happened over the last 20 months in egypt. when these revolts first broke out, in january of 2011, when the demonstrations broke out that, of course, brought mubarek's overthrow, the sentiment in the square and in egypt was domestically focused. people were not talking about foreign policy, not talking about the united states, not talking about israel, not talking about the peace treaty. this was really a revolution about overthrowing an autocratic regime. the problem with the revolution though it was essentially leader less and that allowed well organized group which is in egypt is the islamists to take advantage once the duhad settled and mubarek was gone and that's what you have in egypt, islamist groups quickly able to organize and win elections while the people who had started the

revolution were still leaderless and very much disorganized and some of the limitless groups have been behind drumming up antiamerican sentiment and of course the attack on the embassy in cairo two weeks ago. there you had agoma, al uslimia, that prior to the release of the antiislamic web video had been calling for protests on 9/11 and from the u.s. embassy, demanding the release of omar rafman, the blind sheikh responsible for the 1993 bombing. that attack on the embassy in cairo was very much premeditated, ogahma later used a video to drum up support for the protests. that protest was very much premeditated. host: the lead story in this morning's "new york times", egypt leader spells out terms for u.s.-arab ties on the eve of his first trip to the united states as egypt's new

islamist president, muhammad morsi says the united states needs to fundamentally change its approach to the arab world showing greater respect for its value and helping build a palestinian state if it hoped to overcome decades of pent-up earning. so first two questions: one, if the president meets with morsi, is this going to -- will this do anything to tamper down the antiamerican feelings in egypt or is this going to make the radical islamists even more angry? and what seriously can the united states do in this situation to try and i guess establish or help put the morsi administration on solid foot tp-g that's what they want to do? guest: i don't think that president obama meeting with morsi did will much to tamper down antiamerican sentiment in egypt and the reason for that is that antiamerican sentiment isn't really about whether obama meets with

morsi. it's not really about this web video that the administration continues to denounce. it's really about the long standing demands, many of which the united states simply can't give into. most, ogama lislamia was going to demand these protests to demand the release of a terrorist who had been involved in the bombing of the 1993 world trade center attack, so the demands are really motoo that really motivate antiamericanism is simply something thato zero something that can't be washed away by a single meeting and the comments to "the new york times" suggest that he doesn't really understand the dynamics of the u.s. egyptian relationship as it currently stands. specifically, egypt right now is asking the united states for major economic aid to forgive $1 billion in loans. it's asking for american businesses to invest. and while it's -- while it's asking this, morsi is coming

to the united states with certain demands, such as that america should do something against antiislamic web videos, that it should take a stance against speech that's offensive to the muslim world. so it's not clear that morsi understands that if you're asking for something you have to give something, and morsi has not really given anything. he was very slow in responding to these embassy attack, his group the muslim brotherhood actually endorsed the embassy attacks and had planned new protests against the united states, so i think that when morsi comes to the united states this week, he's going to come with a lot of demands, and it's the job of this administration to say hey listen, if you want aid from the united states, you need to show a friendlier face, you can't ask for money and ask us to do a whole host of other things that we simply cannot do. host: we're talking about eric trager of the washington institute, a mixed generation fellow and is here for the next 35 minutes to talk to us about antiamerican anger in the middle east. if you want to get involved

in the conversation, the numbers are on the screen, 202-737-ooo1 for democrats, 202-737-ooo2 for republicans, and for independents, 202- 202-628-o2o5. you can also get in touch with us via social media. before we get to the phones i want to bring your attention to a story in this morning's new york daily news, libyans force thugs with slave ties to flee, the my laisha linked to the murder of u.n. ambassador chris stevens was force to flee its compound after being attacked by furious fellow country men, armed with rifles, machetes, the angry libyans kicked al sharia out of its benghazi headquarters and chased fighters from the bays. what's the significance of what happened over the weekend in libya to the situation that we're trying to come to terms with and

react to, the killing of the u.s. ambassador, chris stevens, and the attack on our consulate in benghazi? guest: there are really two points we should take away from what's going on in libya. the first is the response to the libyan government and in this case the libyan people actually attacking the terroristis are really quite encouraging, very different from the egyptian response, of course, again. the egyptian government did not denounce the attacks until a couple of days later when it was under pressure, the ruling party called for new protests in libya, very different, immediate denunciation of the attacks, the need to step up the deal esp confrontation with militants. but the second thing we have to remember about libya, this is still an instance in which a different kind of, you know, unofficial response, that is, you know, to put it mildly, a different kind of mob response, one that we like, one that was very much antiterrorist was used to fight the terrorists, and that suggests that the libyan

government is still a very, very weak, its domestic police force is still very weak, so even though we're seeing a very good response in libya, the libyan government remains so weak in confronting it that it takes kind of a major outpouring from the libyan public and a different kind of vigilante type of attack to address the terrorism. host: are we moving into a situation where the degrees of friendship or cooperation between, for example, libya and egypt are reversing themselves? libya now becoming more of our friend, egypt, not so much? guest: we hope not. we hope that the proper polices can be put in place that will, at the very least, force president morsi to behave responsibly. and what that requires is rather than simply engaging egypt and engaging this new government on the assumption that with enough aid and enough friendliness, they'll act as we want them to, we really need to pressure

morsi, we need to tell morsi very clearly if he wants american investments, wants us to forgive $1 billion in loans, wants continued economic and military aid, he's going to have to take stronger stances against attacks on our embassies, he's going to have to tamper down antiamericanism. frankly, i think a condition of him getting a meeting with president obama should be his renunsiation of his 9/11 conspiracy theories. president morsi is a well documented 9/11 conspiracy theorist and this president should not be giving the president of egypt the primatur without the president having to walk back the hostile things he's said against the united states. host: our first call comes from harmon, new york, knoll, go ahead. caller: first of all, i think the insane foreign policy of our administration, be it democratic or republican, has led to these problems. now, interventionist polices,

with the arab spring, if i recall, libya, egypt, were backed by our governments, whether democrats or republicans, we knew there were terrorists in those countries, we knew there was al-qaeda in those countries. have we basically -- it's an insane policy, and i do believe insane. we have backed these individuals. we should have less interventionist polices in these governments and should be more neutral and stay out of these insane, insane predicaments we put ourselves into. this is not the way this country should be going. host: eric trager. guest: i want to draw a distinction. i think it's inaccurate to say that we supported, the united states supported, the emergence of the muslim brotherhood in egypt. i think we have to have a difference between things that happen domestically in foreign countries and then the way those countries behave externally. from having been in tahrir square during the

administration, fall of mubarek, emergence of the muslim brotherhood, emergence of president morsi, these are events very hard to shape from 6000 miles away and we should be very realistic as to what foreign policy can and cannot accomplish. what it can accomplish is affecting the way this new government now that it's been constituted bee haves externally. we can use various tools of policy to pressure it, specifically, in this case, military and economic aid, and we should be putting real -- we should be stating very clear red lines as to what the conditions are for that aid continuing. i agree that this administration has not done that enough. but there is still time to right this policy. and certainly, president morsi's visit to the united states is a great time to state very, very clearly what the conditions are for continuing a relationship that has kept peace between egypt and its neighbors and has allowed egypt to develop economically. .

american foreign and military policy with regard to the middle east? >> clearly policy has something to do with it. just walking through the events of the last couple weeks again.

a designated terrorist organization had planned these demonstration which is gave rise to the attack because they were protesting the fact that their leader is still in american prison. he's in prison for having been involved in the 1993 attack on the world trade center. so there's a disagreement with policy. america is going to try to imprison people who try to attack us and those are not going to be happy about it. what's important is that the administration, whoever is in the white house, stands our ground on what is important to us clearly counter terrorism is one of those things. so i don't think that the anger in this case is really due to a web video if it is then i think we should be realistic about the fact that's going to be very hard to counter akt because again this is a you tube clip. there are many clips out there. for something that no one was

paying attention to that was a very low budget poor production set people off just shows us the challenges we face. but really, if that's going to set people off it's very hard to construct a policy around that. >> we've got a tweet from note scans. >> of course in syria you have an ongoing civil war. i think the expectation is that asad will fall within the next few maybe four to six months are the estimates that i've heard. what emerges in syria though is really an open question. the national council that represent it is opposition is of course dominated by the muslim brotherhood in syria. there are questions whether on that council has that same support inside the country. right now much of the fighting is being led by jihadies so

it's really a very, very fluid environment in syria. certainly looking at it regionly the brotherhood is supportive of the revolution because i think of the expectation that it will empower the brotherhood in syria and give the new egyptian government a natural ally. but we really have to see how this evolves. >> do these muslim brotherhoods have similar philosophies? are they connected in any way? is it like the brotherhood in syria and egypt, is it like the republican party in ohio and kansas? >> i would be hesitent to draw any parallel between the brotherhood and regular political part eafments first, it is extremely different in the sense that where as to join the republican or democratic party you check a box. joining the brotherhood is a five-to eight-year process where they're vetted for points to their allegiance, their willingness to take orders.

so really the recruitment is much more like a cult than like any kind of political party. but what the organizations all over the world share is an agreement on five principles which include the koran is their constitution, jihad is their way, and the brotherhood has organizations in, as they've told me, 72 countries around the world. within each country it is believed that the muslim brotherhood organization controls its own affairs and makes its on strategic decision which is pertain to whether or not they will use violence wlrks it participates in elections but what unites them and in egypt and syria and elsewhere including in the united states is this adherence to kind affive broad principles. >> you anticipated my next question. so there are cells here in the united states? >> yes. if you speak to muslim brotherhood leaders in egypt

they're actually very proud of this which reinforce it is extent to which they're an international organization. i don't think that muslim brotherhood cells in the united states should be the concern for us that they are in egypt where they're actually ruling the country. here of course it's a very small mostly socially focused organization. but i think from a policy perspective the real focus has to be on egypt where it's gained power and in other countries where muslim brotherhood organizations are shaping foreign policy in critical areas in a very anti-american direction. >> back do the phones and our discussion with eric trager of the washington institute. petersburg, virginia, is where we get our next call. >> i have a comment. i served three combat wars in afpk and iraq. the previous caller is clearly mistaken about the numbers. we kill terrorists in the

thousands. the terrorists kill the civilians in the millions. the question i have is being we have all this experience here, one, and we know that the muslims in those countries are not the same as american muslims, there is a great difference. the question is prepping the battlefield is what we call it in the military. why can't we get the information that we know and ensure the policies are in place before we assist and hand over $5 million in assistance to an organization that's number two thing which jihad is our way which is to war and whatever, give your life for, just because somebody says so? it's not in the koran. i've studied it as well. it's not there. it's only against massive forms of wrongdoing. so the bottom line is why can't we as a government ensure that our policies are strictly laid out and agreed to and if they're not adhere's to we don't give them money? >> i certainly agree with that sentiment that we need to

condition aid very clearly on the government's agreement to abide by certain red lines and to be cooperative on key american interests. the reason why that hasn't happened i think is there have been two competing theories as to how the brotherhood will behave oncin power. one was that once an organization gains power and is responsible for the future of its country it will be forced to moderate actually as one muslim brotherhood leader told me. weavesly we were driving a truck so we could swerve and we could say what we want and it's not a big deal. now we're driving an oil tanker so we have to be much more careful. that's certainly one theory that i disagree with. because the other theory which i subscribe to is nothing is going to force the muslim brotherhood to moderate unless it's challenged domestically within egypt or external. within egypt the brotherhood is

the dominant political force. it's the only organization they topped down nationwide a pyramid structure that can mobilize people quickly and that will help it win election force the foreseeable future. what we need to do is challenge it extermly by putting strict conditions on what aid we're willing to offer. my own theory and i think the theory of others is that without strong conditions nothing forces this organization to moderate. if anything the brotherhood looks at the last two years and says we've never conceded anything and we keep winning and we keep getting aid and we keep getting promises of investment. in the aftermath of the embassy attacks the message has to be very clearly no if you don't behave responsibly there are going to be real cons quebses. that message was not sent prior. i think the president sent that message in his phone call after the attacks but it's a message that needs to be reinforced

this week. >> in virginia bob on our line for independents. caller: good morning. all the conversation nobody is talking about the taxpayers' rights. i think that the y ought to give aid to the middle east according to what the taxpayers want. instead of when it comes time to pay your taxes you check whether you want to donate money to the cause or not. but it shouldn't be a thing where they just take it. look, you have hundreds of people call in all the time saying they'll never stop the fighting in the middle east. in fact we're giving them a job over there. if it wasn't for them fighting against us they wouldn't have anything to do. and israel, look at this we've got millions of people in this country that are democrats but now israel is trying to tell us what to do. they're trying to elect a republican. we don't need rails for for --

israel for sure. that's what i'm thinking. >> go ahead. guest: well, i think that we have to keep in mind that as disturbing as this new government is in egypt we still have very important u.s. interests not only in egypt but the broader region. first and foremost we want egypt to be stable and a reliable ally because we depend on regional stability for oil. that's really something for us in our middle east policy and we should be very clear about that. the second thing is there are properties like the sues canal that we depend on for the movement of goods and troops. it shares a border with israel. we want to keep peace between israel and egypt. so i don't think that disengagement from the whole, which i think is what the caller was suggesting, is really a viable strategy just given what we need the region for. but getting what we need from egypt which includes stability, includes peace with israel, includes access to the sues

canal, overflight rights and these sorts of things requires using the tools that we have to get this government to be cooperative. and those tools are economic aid. egypt's economy is suffering very significantly. currency reserves have dipped and the brotherhood is looking abroad what i'm suggesting is that we shouldn't give them anything for free and if they're genuine about wanting to build their economy they will ask for aid but be willing to accept the conditions that the administration should be placing on that aid. host: in the "washington post" on friday this article.

guest: so not a problem limited to egypt and libya and syria. the emergence of more radical islamists than the muslim brotherhood, they aspire to recreate islamic practice as it was done during the time of the profit mohammed because they view that as the deal community. sal fists have really emerged as tunisia libya and egypt, certainly in the fighting in syria and they perhaps pose the greatest threat to american interests because of how uncompromising they are. what i think is worrying is

that nonsala fist islamists including the brotherhood and the party in tunisia rather than distinguishing thems by attacking them for their radicalism tend to side with them, tend to concede their grievances, especially when it comes to this obscure web clip that no one would have seen had it not been for their less radical cousins in the muslim brotherhood playing it up quite a bit. so again, what's worrying is not only that sal fists are moving very quickly to exploit whatever ever they can to drum um public support for anti-american sentiment and attacks on embassies but that the less radical are playing the same card. >> host: next up atlanta georgia on our line for democrats. caller: good morning.

i have concern with -- i heard you talk about the brotherhood. should we be concerned with the brotherhood being an ally of al qaeda since they indirectly supported the attack on our embassy? and if so, what should the sanction be, if any, toward them against them especially if their president is coming over to america to visit with president obama how do you think we should proceed with that if it proves that they knew of this here attack and also may have helped the people that attacked the embassy? >> i think it's important to be clear that the muslim brotherhood is not an ally of al qaeda. when you speak with the muslim brotherhood, they say we're moderate islamists. so ask ok what does moderate mean? what they say is we're not al qaeda. which is not a very good definition of moderation.

but kind of gets to the point that they're not al qaeda and it's important to be aware of the fine distinction among islamist groups that we can pursue the right and most direct policy. so it's true they're not al qaeda. it's not a terrorist organization in egypt. it does not use violence domestically. but yes it supports an attack on our embassy. it's very slow to respond. it seems to have withdrawn security forces from the embassy perimeter, that is the government is not controlled by the brotherhood. and the tools that we have against that kind of challenge are actually very, very clear, which is the aid that we give to government that is now run by the muslim brotherhood. so i agree with kind of the policy prescriptions of the caller that yes we should be using our interactions with the brotherhood and with the president to press very clearly what our expectations are, stress very clearly when he falls short of those, and to

have consequences available for his misbehavior. not defending an embassy, not decrying an attack on the embassy. that's a violation of the first rule of international politics. and i certainly agree that this administration should be much firmer in setting those red lines. >> the cover story in this week's edition of cq weekly old policies for an angry era after deadly protests in the arab world some lawmakers want to cut off foreign aid but washington won't give up its remaining leverage in the region. sit a case that we feel like we have to send this money? we, the united states, the u.s. government has to send this money over there to have some influence over there? and on the other side do the folks in the middle east understand or are they under the assumption that regardless of how they behave, they're going to get the money anyway because it's the only sort of guarantee that the u.s. has that they're going to not go completely off the rails?

>> to your second question the answer is yes the brotherhood has said it feels entitled to this money. this is america kind of making up for its long time support of hosting mubarak. so the brotherhood and many people in the middle east feel entitled to this aid but our viewpoint, the viewpoint of washington and of course the administration should be hey this aid is not an enentitlement. this is not charity. this is part of a strategic relationship that we're giving you economic aid because you need to help your economy. and we need certain things in return. we need you to abide by a treaty with israel, we need you to protect our embasssies. we need you to tamp down anti-american sentiment. we need you to arrest terrorists. much less relieably in egypt. so i think that the problem kind of starts in the way washington is messaging its aid to the middle east. we should be saying this is part of a strategic relationship. this is very much a quid proquo. this is not charity.

>> next up columbus, ohio. john on our line for republicans. >> good morning, gentlemen. i'm just here to say this. i'm 37 years old. my dad when i was a kid in the 80's told me and my brothers that when we get older and become adults we're going to have to fight these people. no matter how you put it, those people over there don't like us americans. what american policy is go over there with the enemy. but when the lights get cut off washington denies. and i'm tired of us dancing around all this. you're saying all this brotherhood. these people do not like us. host: is it just that simple? guest: i think the call ser right that they don't like us. polls show very clearly that america is extremely unpopular in egypt for a whole host of reasons much of which by the way have to do with the way in

which both the priest regime and the current ruling -- previous regime and the current ruling party have played to ant american sentiment to bolster their report. so by holding the government responsible and the way it controls its media we can affect to some extent the way people over there see us. so i think that that needs to be put up front. beyond that, it's very important that we say to our interlock turs in egypt, look, we don't really care what you think in your hearts about the united states. you need to be smart enough to understand that at the end of the day you need us and to a lesser extent we need you. so we need to kind of frame this relationship in terms of one between intelligence adults not one that's between kind of people who are acting out on emotion. we would like to have a strong relationship with egypt.

we need this egypt government to understand that without a strong relationship with the united states it will fail and that's why i think we have aid as leverage and we need to use it r. steve on our line for independents calling from atlanta, georgia. go ahead. caller: i would like to say that i agree with the first callers and the last caller. didn't they fascinate masser and isn't the muslim brotherhood just a fine organization for a terror organization? and any aid or influence that we have and what worked over the past 30 years with egypt was through the military. and so shouldn't we try to -- we might as well do everything we can to encourage the military to come back into power

guest: i'm skeptical about our ability to shape domestic politics from 6,000 miles away. for many months after last year's revolution washington did maintain its relation with the military. that didn't work. this was a military junta that prevented our pro-democratic ngo workers from traveling during the ngo crisis in january and february when that government shut down our ngo's and put travel bans on workers many of whom were american citizens. this is a military government that dismissed parliament, tried to hold on in a very destabilizing way especially in june and then when push came to sho when he became president very quickly folded when he fired top generals. so i think that the pro-americanism of the egyptian military especially when it was in power greatly overstated and not only that it's reliability is overstated.

so i don't think we have an option of kind of banking on a new military coup. i think what we need to remember about egypt is that egypt is the most populous arab country, it's an extremely influential player in the region. so we don't really have the luxury or we shouldn't want a situation in which we're not dealing with that government at all just given the extent of american involvement in the middle east. that's simply not an option the question therefore is not should we deal with the muslim brotherhood. the question is what are we saying to them when we deal with them? that's why in conversation with the brotherhood we need to put our interests front and center and say clearly what the consequences are not being cooperative. i'm not satisfied that the current administration has done that. i do think that the attacks of two weeks ago were very much a wakeup call and hopefully now that president morsey is coming to new york that message will be front and center. you allowed mobs to attack our

embassy. you didn't say anything for 48 hours. and if that kind of behavior continues it's going to be impossible to help you out of an economic crisis that you need to fix. we have the leverage and we need to put that front and center. host: if we go in there and say behave or we're going to withdraw our foreign aid to countries like libya and egypt and the like, is there a concern that they're going to say you know what? take your money. we'll go to china we'll go to south america and get foreign aid from those guys? guest: he's already tried to do that. he had a trip to china a couple weeks ago in which he came away with $71 million of direct investment which is nothing. and then came away with 4.8 billion in infrastructure development projects. now, the way the chinese typically to these projects is they send chinese workers to complete them. therefore they're not employing egyptians. it's not a big stimulus for the

egyptian economy. so i think the way this government will learn and may have to learn is if they really want aid that is there to help egyptians help employ egyptians that's probably going to come from the united states. so they can look abroad, they can look elsewhere and we shouldn't be shy about forcing them to go on a process of learning this. so i don't think that we should be overconcerned about that. we should remember that we really have something to offer and that that shouldn't be provided unless this government is willing to cooperate with us. host: next up is john on our line for democrats calling from utah this morning. go ahead. caller: thanks, c-span. i think america has lost track of why they don't like us over there. and a lot of it has to do with religion. i know that's something people don't like to talk about in this country but that's the problem. we are so based on our religion here and downgraded muslims

since the 9/11 attack that we have really lost site. if it's not anti-american, it's anti-different religions. that's why america is so great because we have such a diverse religious system that it's not based on our government. guest: i don't agree with that. this administration and the one preceding it has done a great deal to clearly distinguish between terrorist that we're fighting and muslims in general has said very clearly that the people that oolt tacked us are not representative in any way of over 1 billion muslims around the world. and the fact that's not being heard is due to the way in which extremists and auto cratic regimes bank on anti-american sentiment to rev up the crowd against the united states and most recently at the embassy. i think we need to be pretty clear in our convictions that

we expect certain things from egypt, that we're doing the best we can to reach out and that we should not be giving anything away for free, especially when we have very important interests on the line. host: can you quickly explain to us what a next generation fellow is? guest: it means i'm young. host: harvard university graduate with a degree in government and language citations in aira bick and heebrue. he has been here talking about anti-american anger in the middle east. i thank you for being on the "washington journal." guest: thanks for having me. host: and we want to let our viewers and listeners know what's coming up tomorrow. we begin with a discussion with jonathan sell ent with bloomberg news and talk about recent developments.

host: we finish up with gary of the government accountability office and he'll be here to talk with us about recommendations that g.a.o. made to congress about decisions tied to raising the debt ceiling. that is all for this edition of the "washington journal." we'll see you again tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern time. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] see the first of the presidential debates live on c-span, c-span radio and on line at c-span.org.

watch and engage. up next, "newsmakers" with senate's homeland security security chairman joe lieberman. followed by the house oversight committee investigation into fast and furious. and later, homeland security security secretary janet napolitano discusses scurnt threats to the u.s. >> joe week on "newsmakers," lieberman. two reporters with us today pirie . >> i thought we would start with the national securities moment since the attacks in libya. the head of the national security councilti