saying is -- >> "and that means for speaker been are? >> is a top spot. we have seen how much the payroll tax will apply. regardless of what happens, speaker boehner or will be in a top spot. especially if obama does win. some republicans say we should always have tax increases. others like tom cole say if obama wins -- it is going to be a problem for speaker boehner. remember, banner and the president seemed so close to having a grand bargain. a lot of those ideas will go back on the table. including raising the eligibility age. >> do in the talks but kicked back up between the speaker and the president? >> yes. whether there is a deal or not,

it is going to be a harry reid, john boehner, president obama conversation. barring the outcome of the election. but it will have to cut some deals. because the rest of them will be so divided there will not be able to do anything. speaker boehner are is going to have to except the split. there is no way he can get them all to vote for a deal. >> mitch mcconnell could be in the middle. >> what is governor romney wins the presidency than a? >> i think if he wins, they do call the whole thing off. it is very hard to argue that he does not deserve the right to have his own budget. you will do that and the first few months of 2013. it is hard to imagine a bunch of democrats and president obama falling on their swords for something of the new president could just reverse.

>> speaking of budgets -- what is this book? >> inside the high-stakes politics of the federal budget. a book that people who note that the budget and the deficit are important but have never managed to read on this subject. >> thank you. >> you can see newsmakers again tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. george mcgovern, former south dakota rep and senator, in 1972 presidential candidate died this morning. he was in world war two and was later a local critic of the

vietnam war. he served three terms in the united states senate. after being first elected in 1962. ran for president three times and was defeated by richard nixon in 1972. mr. mcgovern was united states ambassador to united nations food and agricultural agencies from 1998 to 2001. he won the presidential medal of freedom in 2000. and was the global ambassador in 2001. george mcgovern was 90. and our c-span cameras are live this morning in boca raton, florida. where operations are under way for the third and final three presidential debates. look at media outlets setting up there. sunday morning in boca raton, florida. watch and engaged with c-span as the presidential candidates meet

for their last debate. as live tomorrow from florida. our live debate previous starts at 7:00 p.m. eastern. at 9:00 p.m., cbs news chief and a moderator bobb schieffer moderates the debate. after the debate, your reactions and comments, calls, e-mails and tweets. fall our live coverage on c- span, c-span radio and online at c-span.org. the topic of the final debate, foreign affairs, the second debate was from hofstra university on long island in new york. and we will assure you that now. was a town hall style debate.

>> good evening. i am candy crowley. we are here for the second presidential debate at the town hall, sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. there are 82 uncommitted voters from the new york area. michael is to give the conversation direction and make sure the questions are answered. the questions are known to me and my team only. neither the commission nor the candidates have seen them. i am optimistic, so i am sure the candidates will oblige by keeping their answers concise. there will be a two-minute follow-up. the audience here has agreed to

be polite and attentive. no cheering or outburst of any sort. we will set aside that agreement just this once to welcome president obama and mitt romney. [applause] >> thank you both for joining us tonight. we have a lot of folks who want to talk to you. governor romney won the coin toss. the first question will go to you. a first-time voter, jeremy, has a question.

>> as a 20-year-old college student, when i graduate, i will have little chance to get employment. what can you say to reassure me, but more importantly, my parents, that i will be able to support myself after i graduate. >> thank you. i appreciate your question. thank you to all of those who have come. thank you for your time. thank you hofstra university and candy crowley. thank you, mr. president, for being a part of this debate. your question is one that is being asked by college kids all over the country. i was in pennsylvania with someone who just graduated. this is in philadelphia. she said she got her degree and she cannot find a job. she has three part-time jobs. they are barely enough to pay for food and apartment. she cannot begin to pay her student loans. we have to make sure we can make it easier for kids to afford college. also, that there is a job when they get out.

when i was the governor of massachusetts, you had to pass an exam to get a high school diploma. we gave you four years tuition- free to the college of choice if you scored high. we will have a loan program so people are able to afford school. the key thing is to make sure you get a job when you get out. what has happened over the last four years has been very hard for america's young people. i want you to get a job. i know what it takes to get this economy going. with half of college kids graduating this year without a job and a college-level job, that is unacceptable. you have more debt on your back. more debt, less jobs. i will change that. i know what it takes to create good jobs. i know what it takes to give you the opportunity you deserve. we are bringing back an economy.

it will not people like the last four years. the middle class has been crushed. jobs have been scarce. i have a chance to bring those back. when do you graduate? 2014. i presume i will be president. i will make sure you get a job. thank you. >> your future is bright. the fact that you are making an investment in higher education is critical. not just to you but to the entire nation. the most important thing we can do is make sure we are creating jobs in this country, but not just jobs, but good-paying jobs. one that can support a family. what i want to do is build on the 5 million jobs we have created over the last 30 months in the private sector alone. there are a bunch of things we can do to make sure your future is bright.

number one, i want to build manufacturing jobs in this country again. when governor romney says we should let detroit go bankrupt, i said we would bet on american workers and the american auto industry, and it has come surging back. i want to do that all across the country. that means we change our tax code so we are giving incentives to countries investing in the united states and creating jobs here. it also means we help them and small businesses to export all around the world. we have to make sure we have the best education system in the world. the fact that you are going to college is great. i want everybody to get a great education. we have worked hard to make sure student loans are available to folks like you. i want to make sure community colleges are offering slots for workers to get retrained for the jobs out there right now. number three, we have to control our own energy. not only oil, natural gas, which we have been investing in.

we also have to make sure we are building the energy sources of the future. not just next year, but 10 and 20 years from now. we invest in solar, wind, biofuels. energy efficient cars. we need to reduce our deficit, in a balanced way. let's take the money we have been spending on war over the last decade to rebuild america. roads, bridges, schools. not only will your future be bright, but america's, as well. >> let me ask you for a more immediate answer. just quickly, what can you do? we are looking at the situation where 40% of the unemployed have been so for six months or more. they do not have the two years jeremy has. what about those long-term unemployed who need a job right

now? >> 23 million people are struggling to find a job. a lot of them have been out of work for a long time. the president's policies have been exercised over the last four years. they have not put americans back to work. we have fewer people working today than we had when the president took office. if the unemployment rate was 7.8% when he took office, it is 7.8% now. if you calculate that, taking people who dropped out of the workforce, it would be 10.7%. we have not made the progress we need to put people back to work. i have a five-point plan that gets america 12 million new jobs in four years and a rising take- home pay. it will help jeremy get a job, people across the country who are unemployed, and one thing the president said which i want to make sure we understand. my plan was to have the company in detroit go through bankruptcy like 7-eleven did, macy's, and continental airlines, and come out stronger.

he keeps saying i want to take detroit bankrupt. he took chrysler bankrupt. when you say i want to take the auto industry bankrupt, you actually did. i think it is important to know that was a process that was necessary to get those companies back on their feet so they could hire more people. that is what happened. >> candy, what governor romney said is not true. you wanted to take them into bankruptcy without providing them any way to stay open. we would have lost a million jobs. do not take my word for it. take the executives at gm and chrysler, some of whom are republicans.

they may even support governor romney. they will tell you that would not have worked. he says he has a five-point plan. he does not. he has a one-point plan. that plan is to make sure those at the top play by a different set of rules. that has been his philosophy in the private sector, as governor, and as a presidential candidate. you can make a lot of money and pay lower tax rates than someone who makes a lot less. you can ship jobs overseas and get tax breaks. you can invest in a company, bankrupt it, lay off workers, strip pensions, and you still make money. that is exactly the philosophy we have seen in place for the last decade. that is what is squeezing middle-class families. we have fought back for four years to get out of that mess. the last thing we need to do is to go back to the very same policies that got us there. >> the next question will be for mr. president. there will be plenty of chances, governor romney, to go on. >> let me try to answer.

>> you certainly will have a lot of time coming up. i want to move on to something bad is connected to cars. we want to get a question. >> your energy secretary has now been on record three times stating it is not policy of his department to help lower gas prices. you agree with the secretary that this is not the job of the energy department? >> the most important thing we can do is to make sure we control our own energy. here is what i have done since i was president. we have increased oil production to the highest levels in 16 years. natural gas production is the highest it has been in decades. we have seen increases in coal production and employment. what i have also said is we

cannot just produce traditional sources of energy. we also have to look to the future. that is why we doubled fuel efficiency standards on cars. in the middle of the next decade, any car you buy, you will end up going twice as far on a gallon of gas. we doubled clean energy production like wind, solar, and biofuels. all these things have contributed to us lowering our oil imports to the lowest levels in 16 years. i want to build on that. that means we still continue to open up new areas for drilling, we continue to make it a priority for us to go after natural gas. we have got potentially 600,000 jobs and a 100 years worth of energy right under our feet with natural gas. we can do it in an environmentally sound way. we also have to continue to figure out how we have efficient energy. that is how we are going to reduce demand.

that is what is going to keep gas prices lower. governor romney will say he has an all of the above plan. his plan is to let the oil companies write the energy policies. he has got the oil and gas part, but he does not have the clean energy part. if we are only thinking about tomorrow or the next day, and not thinking about 10 years from now, we are not going to control our own economic future. china, germany, they are making these investments. i am not going to feed those jobs of the future to those countries. i expect those new energy sources to be built right here in the united states. that will help jeremy get a job. it will also make sure you are not paying as much money for gas. >> let's look at the president's policies as opposed to the rhetoric. we have had four years of policies being played out. the president is right in terms of the additional oil production. none of it came on federal land. oil production is down 14% this

year on federal land. gas production is down 9%. the president cut in half the number of licenses and permits for drilling on federal lands and in federal waters. where did the increase come from? a lot of it came from north dakota. the administration brought a criminal action against the people drilling up there for oil. this massive new resource we have. what was the cost? 25 birds were killed. they brought out a bird act. i want to make sure we use our oil, coal, gas, nuclear, and renewables. i believe very much in our renewable capabilities. they will be an important part of our energy mix. what we do not need is having the president keeping us from taking advantage of oil, coal, and gas. this has not been mr. oil, mr. gas, or mr. coal.

talk to people working in those industries. people grabbed my arms and said, please save my job. the head of the epa said you cannot build a coal plant. it is virtually impossible given our regulations. when the president ran for office, he said you can go ahead, but you will go bankrupt. that is not the right course for america. let's take advantage of the energy resources we have as well as the ones for the future. if we do that, what i am planning, getting us energy independent, north america energy independence within eight years, you will see manufacturing jobs come back because our energy is low-cost. they are already beginning to come back because of our abundant energy. i will get america and north america energy independent. more drilling, more permits and licenses, that pipeline in from canada. how the president said no to that, i will never know. this is about bringing good jobs back for the middle class of america.

that is what i will do. >> let's see if i can move you to the gist of this question. are we looking at the new normal? tomorrow morning, a lot of people will wakeup and they will find the price of gas over $4 a gallon. is it within the purview of the government to bring those prices down, or are we looking at the new normal? >> we are using oil more efficiently. very little of what governor romney just said is true. we have opened up public lands. we are drilling more on public lands than on the previous administration. the previous president was an oil man. natural gas was not appearing magically. we are encouraging it. i hear governor romney say he is a big coal guy. when you were the governor, you

stood in front of a coal plant and said, this plant kills. you took great pride in shutting it down. suddenly, you are a big champion of coal. what i have tried to do is be consistent. with respect to something like coal, we made the largest investment in clean coal technology to make sure we are producing it cleaner and smarter. same thing with oil, same thing with natural gas. our oil imports are down to the lowest levels in 20 years. oil production is up. natural gas production is up. we are also starting to build cars that are more efficient. that is creating jobs. those cars can be exported. that is the demand around the world. it will save money in your pocketbook. that is the strategy you need. that is what we will do in the next four years. >> but that is not what you have done. that is the problem.

in the last four years, you cut permits and licenses on federal lands and federal waters in half. >> not true. >> by how much did you cut them on? >> we have actually produced more oil. >> how much did you cut licenses and permits on federal waters? >> here is what we did. >> i had a question. how much did you cut them by? >> you want me to answer them. i am happy to answer the question. you added a whole bunch of oil companies who had leases on public lands they were not using. what we said was, you cannot just sit on this for 10, 20, 30 years, decide when you want to drill, when you want to produce, when it is most profitable for you. these are public lands. if you want to drill on public lands, you use it or you lose it. what we did was take away those leases and we are now reletting them so we can make a profit. production is up.

>> production of government land and oil is down. 9%. >> it is just not true. >> it is true. there is no question people recognize -- federal lands in federal waters. i was just in a coal facility. some 1200 people lost their jobs. the right course for america is to have a true all of the above policy. i do not believe anyone believes you are a person who will be pushing for oil and gas and coal. you will get your chance in a moment. i am still speaking. i do not believe -- that was not a question. that was a statement. i do not believe the american people believe that. i will fight for oil, coal, and natural gas. the proof is what the price is you are paying at the pump. if you are paying less than you paid a year or two ago, then the strategy is working. but you are paying more.

it is $4 a gallon. the price of electricity is up. if the president's energy policies are working, you will see the cost of energy come down. i will fight to create more energy in this company to get america energy secure. part of that is bringing in a pipeline of oil from canada, taking advantage of the oil and coal we have, drilling offshore in alaska, virginia, where the people want it. those things will get the energy we need. >> could you address, because we did get the gas prices here. could you address what the governor said? if your energy policy was working, the price of gasoline would not be $4 a gallon? is that true? >> think about what he said. when i took office, gasoline was $1.80. why is that? the economy was on the verge of

collapse. we were about to go through the worst recession since the great depression. as a consequence, some of the same policies governor romney is now promoting. it is conceivable to bring them down, but in the policies we might be back in the same mess. what i want to do is to create an economy that is strong and at the same time produce energy. with respect to this pipeline governor romney keeps talking about, we have built enough pipelines to wrap around the entire earth once. i am all for pipelines. i am all for oil pressure. what i am not for is us ignoring the other half of the equation. on wind energy, when governor romney says these are imaginary jobs. you have thousands of people right now in iowa, colorado, who are working, creating wind power, with good-paying manufacturing jobs. the republican senator in iowa is all for it, providing tax cuts to help work. governor romney says, i am

opposed. i would get rid of it. that is not an energy strategy for the future. we need to win that future. >> i get the last question. >> in a follow-up. it does not work like that. i will give you a chance. i promise you. the next question is for you. >> i would have a policy of stopping wind jobs in iowa. they are not phantom jobs. they are real jobs. i appreciate wind jobs in iowa and across our country. i appreciate the jobs in coal, oil, gas. i will make sure we take advantage of our energy resources. we will get through a very aggressive energy policy, 3.5 million more jobs in this country.

>> we will move you along. we will move you both along to taxes. this question is for the governor. >> governor romney. you have stated that if you are elected president, you would plan to reduce the tax rate for oil to tax brackets and that you would work with congress to eliminate some deductions to make up for the loss of revenue. concerning the various deductions, the mortgage deduction, the charitable deduction, a child tax credit, and also the -- i forgot the other credit. [laughter] >> you are doing great. >> the education credits, which are important to me. i have children in college. what would your position on those things be, which are important for the middle class? >> thank you. you are absolutely right about part of that. i want to bring the rates down. i want to simplify the tax code.

i want to get middle income taxpayers to have lower taxes. the reason i want middle income taxpayers to have lower taxes is because middle income taxpayers have been buried over the past four years. you have seen incomes go down, even as gasoline prices have gone up. health insurance premiums up. food prices, utility prices up. the middle income families in america have been crushed. i want to get relief to middle income families. that is part one. how about deductions? i will bring rates down across the board for everybody. i will limit deductions and exemptions and credits, particularly for people at the high end. i will not have those people pay less than they are paying now. the top 5% of taxpayers will continue to pay 60% of the

income-tax the nation collects. that will stay the same. middle income people get a tax break. in terms of a bringing down deductions, one way would be to say everybody gets $25,000 of deductions in credits. you can decide which ones to use. charity, child tax credit, you can use those to fill in that bucket of deductions. your rate comes down. but your rate comes down and the burden also comes down on you for one more reason, and that is every middle-income taxpayer no longer will pay any tax on interest, dividends or capital gains. no tax on your savings. that makes life a lot easier. if you're getting interest from a bank, if you're getting a statement from a mutual fund or any other kind of investment you have, you don't have to worry about filing taxes on that, because there'll be no taxes for anybody making $200,000.00 per year and less, on your interest, dividends and

capital gains. why am i lowering taxes on the middle-class? because under the last four years, they've been buried. and i want to help people in the middle-class. and i will not -- i will not under any circumstances, reduce the share that's being paid by the highest income taxpayers. and i will not, under any circumstances increase taxes on the middle-class. the president's spending, the president's borrowing will cost this nation to have to raise taxes on the american people. not just at the high end. a recent study has shown the people in the middle-class will see $4,000.00 per year in higher taxes as a result of the spending and borrowing of this administration. i will not let that happen. i want to get us on track to a balanced budget, and i'm going to reduce the tax burden on middle income families. and what's that going to do? it's going to help those families, and it's going to create incentives to start growing jobs again in this country. crowley: thanks, governor. obama: my philosophy on taxes has been simple. and that is, i want to give

middle-class families and folks who are striving to get into the middle-class some relief. because they have been hit hard over the last decade. over the last 15, over the last 20 years. so four years ago i stood on a stage just like this one. actually it was a town hall, and i said i would cut taxes for middle- class families, and that's what i've done, by $3,600.00. i said i would cut taxes for small businesses, who are the drivers and engines of growth. and we've cut them 18 times. and i want to continue those tax cuts for middle-class families, and for small business. but what i've also said is, if we're serious about reducing the deficit, if this is genuinely a moral obligation to the next generation, then in addition to some tough spending cuts, we've also got to make sure that the wealthy do a little bit more. so what i've said is, your first $250,000.00 worth of income, no change. and that means 98% of american

families, 97% of small businesses, they will not see a tax increase. i'm ready to sign that bill right now. the only reason it's not happening is because governor romney's allies in congress have held the 98% hostage because they want tax breaks for the top 2%. but what i've also says is for above $250,000, we can go back to the tax rates we had when bill clinton was president. we created 23 million new jobs. that's part of what took us from deficits to surplus. it will be good for our economy and it will be good for job creation. now, governor romney has a different philosophy. he was on 60 minutes just two weeks ago and he was asked: is it fair for somebody like you, making $20 million a year, to pay a lower tax rate than a nurse or a bus driver, somebody making $50,000 year? and he said, "yes, i think that's fair." not only that, he said, "i

think that's what grows the economy."well, i fundamentally disagree with that. i think what grows the economy is when you get that tax credit that we put in place for your kids going to college. i think that grows the economy. i think what grows the economy is when we make sure small businesses are getting a tax credit for hiring veterans who fought for our country. that grows our economy. so we just have a different theory. and when governor romney stands here, after a year of campaigning, when during a republican primary he stood on stage and said "i'm going to give tax cuts" -- he didn't say tax rate cuts, he said "tax cuts to everybody," including the top 1%, you should believe him because that's been his history. and that's exactly the kind of top-down economics that is not going to work if we want a strong middle class and an economy that's striving for everybody. crowley: governor romney, i'm sure you've got a reply there. [laughter] romney: you're absolutely right. you heard what i said about my tax plan.

the top 5% will continue to pay 60%, as they do today. i'm not looking to cut taxes for wealthy people. i am looking to cut taxes for middle-income people. and why do i want to bring rates down, and at the same time lower exemptions and deductions, particularly for people at the high end? because if you bring rates down, it makes it easier for small business to keep more of their capital and hire people. and for me, this is about jobs. i want to get america's economy going again. 44% of america's workers work in businesses that are taxed as individuals. so when you bring those rates down, those small businesses are able to keep more money and hire more people. for me, i look at what's happened in the last four years and say this has been a disappointment. we can do better than this. we don't have to settle for, how many months, 43 months with unemployment above 8%, 23 million americans struggling to find a good job right now. there are 3.5 million more women living in poverty today

than when the president took office. we don't have to live like this. we can get this economy going again. my five-point plan does it. energy independence for north america in five years. opening up more trade, particularly in latin america. cracking down on china when they cheat. getting us to a balanced budget. fixing our training programs for our workers. and finally, championing small business. i want to make small businesses grow and thrive. i know how to make that happen. i spent my life in the private sector. i know why jobs come and why they go. and they're going now because of the policies of this administration. crowley: governor, let me ask the president something about what you just said. the governor says that he is not going to allow the top 5%, believe is what he said, to have a tax cut, that it will all even out, that what he wants to do is give that tax cut to the middle class. settled? obama: no, it's not settled. look, the cost of lowering rates for everybody across the

board, 20%. along with what he also wants to do in terms of eliminating the estate tax, along what he wants to do in terms of corporates, changes in the tax code, it costs about $5 trillion. governor romney then also wants to spend $2 trillion on additional military programs even though the military's not asking for them. that's $7 trillion. he also wants to continue the bush tax cuts for the wealthiest americans. that's another trillion dollars -- that's $8 trillion. now, what he says is he's going to make sure that this doesn't add to the deficit and he's going to cut middleclass taxes. but when he's asked, how are you going to do it, which deductions, which loopholes are you going to close? he can't tell you. the -- the fact that he only has to pay 14% on his taxes when a lot of you are paying much higher.

he's already taken that off the board, capital gains are going to continue to be at a low rate so we -- we're not going to get money that way. we haven't heard from the governor any specifics beyond big bird and eliminating funding for planned parenthood in terms of how he pays for that. now, governor romney was a very successful investor. if somebody came to you, governor, with a plan that said, here, i want to spend $7 or $8 trillion, and then we're going to pay for it, but we can't tell you until maybe after the election how we're going to do it, you wouldn't take such a sketchy deal and neither should you, the american people, because the math doesn't add up. and -- and what's at stake here is one of two things, either candy -- this blows up the deficit because keep in mind, this is just to pay for the additional spending that he's talking about, $7 trillion - $8

trillion before we even get to the deficit we already have. or, alternatively, it's got to be paid for, not only by closing deductions for wealthy individuals, that -- that will pay for about 4% reduction in tax rates. you're going to be paying for it. you're going to lose some deductions, and you can't buy the sales pitch. nobody who's looked at it that's serious, actually believes it adds up. crowley: mr. president, let me get -- let me get the governor in on this. and governor, let's -- before we get into a -- romney: i -- crowley: vast array of who says -- what study says what, if it shouldn't add up. if somehow when you get in there, there isn't enough tax revenue coming in. if somehow the numbers don't add up, would you be willing to look again at a 20% -- romney: well of course they add up. i -- i was -- i was someone who ran businesses for 25 years, and balanced the budget. i ran the olympics and balanced the budget. i ran the -- the state of

massachusetts as a governor, to the extent any governor does, and balanced the budget all four years. when we're talking about math that doesn't add up, how about $4 trillion of deficits over the last four years, $5 trillion? that's math that doesn't add up. we have -- we have a president talking about someone's plan in a way that's completely foreign to what my real plan is. romney: and then we have his own record, which is we have four consecutive years where he said when he was running for office, he would cut the deficit in half. instead he's doubled it. we've gone from $10 trillion of national debt, to $16 trillion of national debt. if the president were reelected, we'd go to almost $20 trillion of national debt. this puts us on a road to greece. i know what it takes to balance budgets. i've done it my entire life. so for instance when he says, "yours is a $5 trillion cut." well, no it's not. because i'm offsetting some of the reductions with holding down some of the deductions. and --

crowley: governor, i've gotta -- gotta -- actually, i need to have you both [indiscernible]. crowley: i understand the stakes here. i understand both of you. but i -- i will get run out of town if i don't -- romney: and i just described -- i just described to you, mr. president -- i just described to you precisely how i'd do it which is with a single number that people can put -- and they can put they're -- they're deductions and credits -- crowley: mr. president, we're keeping track, i promise you. and mr. president, the next question is for you, so stay standing. obama: great. looking forward to it. and it's katherine fenton, who has a question for you. >> in what new ways to you intend to rectify the inequalities in the workplace, specifically regarding females making only 72% of what their male counterparts earn? obama: well, katherine, that's a great question. and, you know, i was raised by a single mom who had to put herself through school while looking after two kids. and she worked hard every day and made a lot of sacrifices to make sure we got everything we needed.

my grandmother, she started off as a secretary in a bank. she never got a college education, even though she was smart as a whip. and she worked her way up to become a vice president of a local bank, but she hit the glass ceiling. she trained people who would end up becoming her bosses during the course of her career. she didn't complain. that's not what you did in that generation. and this is one of the reasons why one of the first -- the first bill i signed was something called the lily ledbetter bill. and it's named after this amazing woman who had been doing the same job as a man for years, found out that she was getting paid less, and the supreme court said that she couldn't bring suit because she should have found about it earlier, whereas she had no way of finding out about it. so we fixed that. and that's an example of the kind of advocacy that we need, because women are increasingly

the breadwinners in the family. this is not just a women's issue, this is a family issue, this is a middle-class issue, and that's why we've got to fight for it. it also means that we've got to make sure that young people like yourself are able to afford a college education. earlier, governor romney talked about he wants to make pell grants and other education accessible for young people. well, the truth of the matter is, is that that's exactly what we've done. we've expanded pell grants for millions of people, including millions of young women, all across the country. we did it by taking $60 billion that was going to banks and lenders as middlemen for the student loan program, and we said, let's just cut out the middleman. let's give the money directly to students. and as a consequence, we've seen millions of young people be able to afford college, and that's going to make sure that young women are going to be able to compete in that marketplace. but we've got to enforce the laws, which is what we are

doing, and we've also got to make sure that in every walk of life we do not tolerate discrimination. that's been one of the hallmarks of my administration. i'm going to continue to push on this issue for the next four years. crowley: governor romney, pay equity for women? romney: thank you. and important topic, and one which i learned a great deal about, particularly as i was serving as governor of my state, because i had the chance to pull together a cabinet and all the applicants seemed to be men. and i -- and i went to my staff, and i said, "how come all the people for these jobs are -- are all men." they said, "well, these are the people that have the qualifications." and i said, "well, gosh, can't we -- can't we find some -- some women that are also qualified?" romney: and -- and so we -- we took a concerted effort to go out and find women who had backgrounds that could be qualified to become members of our cabinet. i went to a number of women's groups and said, "can you help us find folks," and they brought us whole binders full of women. i was proud of the fact that after i staffed my cabinet and

my senior staff, that the university of new york in albany did a survey of all 50 states, and concluded that mine had more women in senior leadership positions than any other state in america. now one of the reasons i was able to get so many good women to be part of that team was because of our recruiting effort. but number two, because i recognized that if you're going to have women in the workforce that sometimes you need to be more flexible. my chief of staff, for instance, had two kids that were still in school. she said, i can't be here until 7 or 8 o'clock at night. i need to be able to get home at 5 o'clock so i can be there for making dinner for my kids and being with them when they get home from school. so we said fine. let's have a flexible schedule so you can have hours that work for you. we're going to have to have employers in the new economy, in the economy i'm going to bring to play, that are going to be so anxious to get good workers they're going to be anxious to hire women. in the -- in the last women have lost 580,000 jobs. that's the net of what's happened in the last four years. we're still down 580,000 jobs.

i mentioned 31/2 million women, more now in poverty than four years ago. what we can do to help young women and women of all ages is to have a strong economy, so strong that employers that are looking to find good employees and bringing them into their workforce and adapting to a flexible work schedule that gives women opportunities that they would otherwise not be able to afford. this is what i have done. it's what i look forward to doing and i know what it takes to make an economy work, and i know what a working economy looks like. and an economy with 7.8% unemployment is not a real strong economy. an economy that has 23 million people looking for work is not a strong economy. an economy with 50% of kids graduating from college that can't finds a job, or a college level job, that's not what we have to have. crowley: governor? romney: i'm going to help women in america get good work by getting a stronger economy and by supporting women in the workforce.

crowley: mr. president why don't you get in on this quickly, please? obama: katherine, i just want to point out that when governor romney's campaign was asked about the lilly ledbetter bill, whether he supported it? he said, "i'll get back to you." and that's not the kind of advocacy that women need in any economy. now, there are some other issues that have a bearing on how women succeed in the workplace. for example, their healthcare. you know a major difference in this campaign is that governor romney feels comfortable having politicians in washington decide the health care choices that women are making. i think that's a mistake. in my health care bill, i said insurance companies need to provide contraceptive coverage to everybody who is insured. because this is not just a -- a health issue, it's an economic issue for women. it makes a difference. this is money out of that family's pocket.

governor romney not only opposed it, he suggested that in fact employers should be able to make the decision as to whether or not a woman gets contraception through her insurance coverage. advocacyt the kind of that women need. when governor romney says that we should eliminate funding for planned parenthood, there are millions of women all across the country, who rely on planned parenthood for, not just contraceptive care, they rely on it for mammograms, for cervical cancer screenings. that's a pocketbook issue for women and families all across the country. and it makes a difference in terms of how well and effectively women are able to work. when we talk about child care, and the credits that we're providing. that makes a difference in whether they can go out there and -- and earn a living for their family. these are not just women's issues. these are family issues. these are economic issues.

and one of the things that makes us grow as an economy is when everybody participates and women are getting the same fair deal as men are. crowley: mr. president -- obama: and i've got two daughters and i want to make sure that they have the same opportunities that anybody's sons have. that's part of what i'm fighting for as president of the united states. crowley: i want to move us along here to susan katz, who has a question. and, governor, it's for you. >> governor romney, i am an undecided voter, because i'm disappointed with the lack of progress i've seen in the last four years. however, i do attribute much of america's economic and international problems to the failings and missteps of the bush administration. since both you and president bush are republicans, i fear a return to the policies of those years should you win this election. what is the biggest difference

between you and george w. bush, and how do you differentiate yourself from george w. bush? romney: thank you. and i appreciate that question. i just want to make sure that, i think i was supposed to get that last answer, but i want to point out that that i don't believe -- obama: i don't think so, candy. romney: i don't believe -- obama: i want to make sure our timekeepers are working here. romney: the time -- the time -- crowley: ok. the timekeepers are all working. and let me tell you that the last part, it's for the two of you to talk to one another, and it isn't quite as [indiscernible] you think. but go ahead and use this two minutes any way you'd like to, the question is on the floor. romney: i'd just note that i don't believe that bureaucrats in washington should tell someone whether they can use contraceptives or not. and i don't believe employers should tell someone whether they could have contraceptive care of not. every woman in america should have access to contraceptives. and -- and the -- and the president's statement of my policy is completely and totally wrong. obama: governor -- romney: let me come back and -- and answer your question. president bush and i are -- are different people and these are different times and that's why

my five point plan is so different than what he would have done. i mean for instance, we can now, by virtue of new technology actually get all the energy we need in north america without having to go to the -- the arabs or the venezuelans or anyone else. that wasn't true in his time, that's why my policy starts with a very robust policy to get all that energy in north america -- become energy secure. number two, trade -- i'll crack down on china, president bush didn't. i'm also going to dramatically expand trade in latin america. it's been growing about 12% per year over a long period of time. i want to add more free trade agreements so we'll have more trade. number three, i'm going to get us to a balanced budget. president bush didn't. president obama was right, he said that that was outrageous to have deficits as high as half a trillion dollars under the bush years. he was right, but then he put in place deficits twice that size for every one of his four years. and his forecast for the next four years is more deficits, almost that large.

so that's the next area i'm different than president bush. and then let's take the last one, championing small business. our party has been focused too long. i came through small business. i understand how hard it is to start a small business. that's why everything i'll do is designed to help small businesses grow and add jobs. i want to keep their taxes down on small business. i want regulators to see their job as encouraging small enterprise, not crushing it. and the thing i find the most troubling about obama care, well it's a long list, but one of the things i find most troubling is that when you go out and talk to small businesses and ask them what they think about it, they tell you it keeps them from hiring more people. my priority is jobs. i know how to make that happen. and president bush has a very different path for a very different time. my path is designed in getting small businesses to grow and hire people. crowley: thanks, governor. mr. president? obama: well, first of all, i think it's important to tell

you that we did come in during some tough times. we were losing 800,000 jobs a month when i started. but we had been digging our way out of policies that were misplaced and focused on the top doing very well and middle class folks not doing well. now, we've seen 30 consecutive -- 31 consecutive months of job growth; 5.2 million new jobs created. and the plans that i talked about will create even more. but when governor romney says that he has a very different economic plan, the centerpiece of his economic plan are tax cuts. that's what took us from surplus to deficit. when he talks about getting tough on china, keep in mind that governor romney invested in companies that were pioneers of outsourcing to china, and is currently investing in countries -- in companies that

are building surveillance equipment for china to spy on its own folks. that's -- governor, you're the last person who's going to get tough on china. and what we've done when it comes to trade is not only sign three trade deals to open up new markets, but we've also set up a task force for trade that goes after anybody who is taking advantage of american workers or businesses and not creating a level playing field. we've brought twice as many cases against unfair trading practices than the previous administration and we've won every single one that's been decided. when i said that we had to make sure that china was not flooding our domestic market with cheap tires, governor romney said i was being protectionist; that it wouldn't be helpful to american workers. well, in fact we saved 1,000 jobs. toughat's the kind of trade actions that are required. but the last point i want to make is this. you know, there are some things

where governor romney is different from george bush. george bush didn't propose turning medicare into a voucher. george bush embraced comprehensive immigration reform. he didn't call for self- deportation. george bush never suggested that we eliminate funding for planned parenthood, so there are differences between governor romney and george bush, but they're not on economic policy. in some ways, he's gone to a more extreme place when it comes to social policy. and i think that's a mistake. that's not how we're going to move our economy forward. crowley: i want to move you both along to the next question, because it's in the same wheelhouse, so you will be able to respond. but the president does get this question. i want to call on michael jones. >> mr. president, i voted for you in 2008. what have you done or accomplished to earn my vote in 2012? i'm not that optimistic as i was

in 2012. most things i need for everyday living are very expensive. throughell, we've gone a tough four years. there's no doubt about it. but four years ago, i told the american people and i told you i would cut taxes for middle class families. and i did. i told you i'd cut taxes for small businesses, and i have. i said that i'd end the war in iraq, and i did. i said we'd refocus attention on those who actually attacked us on 9/11, and we have gone after al qaeda's leadership like never before and osama bin laden is dead. obama: i said that we would put in place health care reform to make sure that insurance companies can't jerk you around and if you don't have health insurance, that you'd have a chance to get affordable insurance, and i have. i committed that i would rein in the excesses of wall street, and we passed the toughest wall street reforms since the 1930s. we've created five million jobs, and gone from 800 jobs a

month being lost, and we are making progress. we saved an auto industry that was on the brink of collapse. now, does that mean you're not struggling? absolutely not. a lot of us are. and that's why the plan that i've put forward for manufacturing and education, and reducing our deficit in a sensible way, using the savings from ending wars, to rebuild america and putting people back to work. making sure that we are controlling our own energy, but not only the energy of today, but also the energy of the future. all of those things will make a difference, so the point is the commitments i've made, i've kept. and those that i haven't been able to keep, it's not for lack of trying and we're going to get it done in a second term. but, you should pay attention to this campaign, because governor romney has made some commitments as well. and i suspect he'll keep those too. you know when members of the republican congress say, "we're

going to sign a no tax pledge, so that we don't ask a dime for millionaires and billionaires to reduce our deficit so we can still invest in education, and helping kids go to college. he said, "me too." when they said, "we're going to cut planned parenthood funding." he said, "me too." when he said, "we're going to repeal obamacare. first thing i'm going to do," despite the fact that it's the same health care plan that he passed in massachusetts and is working well. he said, "me too." that is not the kind of leadership that you need, but you should expect that those are promises he's going to keep. crowley: mr. president, let me let -- obama: the choice in this election is going to be whose promises are going to be more likely to help you in your life? make sure your kids can go to college. make sure that you are getting a good paying job, making sure that medicare and social security -- crowley: mr. president. thank you. obama: -- will be there for you. crowley: thank you. governor? romney: i think you know better. i think you know that these last four years haven't been so good as the president just described

and that you don't feel like your confident that the next four years are going to be much better either. i can tell you that if you were to elect president obama, you know what you're going to get. you're going to get a repeat of the last four years. we just can't afford four more years like the last four years. he said that by now we'd have unemployment at 5.4%. the difference between where it is and 5.4% is 9 million americans without work. i wasn't the one that said 5.4%. this was the president's plan. didn't get there. he said he would have by now put forward a plan to reform medicare and social security, because he pointed out they're on the road to bankruptcy. he would reform them. he'd get that done. he hasn't even made a proposal on either one. he said in his first year he'd put out an immigration plan that would deal with our immigration challenges. didn't even file it. this is a president who has not been able to do what he said he'd do. he said that he'd cut in half the deficit.

he hasn't done that either. in fact, he doubled it. he said that by now middle- income families would have a reduction in their health insurance premiums by $2,500 a year. it's gone up by $2,500 a year. and if obamacare is passed, or implemented -- it's already been passed -- if it's implemented fully, it'll be another $2,500 on top. romney: the middle class is getting crushed under the policies of a president who has not understood what it takes to get the economy working again. he keeps saying, "look, i've created 5 million jobs." that's after losing 5 million jobs. the entire record is such that the unemployment has not been reduced in this country. the unemployment, the number of people who are still looking for work, is still 23 million americans. there are more people in poverty, one out of six people in poverty. how about food stamps? when he took office, 32 million people were on food stamps. today, 47 million people are on food stamps. how about the growth of the

economy? it's growing more slowly this year than last year, and more slowly last year than the year before. the president wants to do well. i understand. but the policies he's put in place from obamacare to dodd- frank to his tax policies to his regulatory policies, these policies combined have not let this economy take off and grow like it could have. you might say, "well, you got an example of one that worked better?" yeah, in the reagan recession where unemployment hit 10.8%, between that period -- the end of that recession and the equivalent of time to today, ronald reagan's recovery created twice as many jobs as this president's recovery. five million jobs doesn't even keep up with our population growth. and the only reason the unemployment rate seems a little lower today is because of all the people that have dropped out of the workforce. the president has tried, but his policies haven't worked. a's great as a -- as a -- as speaker and describing his plans and his vision.

that's wonderful, except we have a record to look at. and that record shows he just hasn't been able to cut the deficit, to put in place reforms for medicare and social security to preserve them, to get us the rising incomes we need. median income is down $4,300 a family and 23 million americans out of work. that's what this election is about. it's about who can get the middle class in this country a bright and prosperous future and assure our kids the kind of hope and optimism they deserve. crowley: governor, i want to move you along. don't -- don't go away, and we'll have plenty of time to respond. we are quite aware of the clock for both of you. but i want to bring in a different subject here. mr. president, i'll be right back with you. lorraine osorio has a question for you about a topic we have not -- obama: this is for governor romney? crowley: it's for governor romney, and we'll be right with you, mr. president. thanks. romney: is it loraina? >> lorraine. romney: lorraine? >> yes, lorraine. romney: lorraine. >> how you doing?

romney: good, thanks. >> mr. romney, what do you plan on doing with immigrants without their green cards that are currently living here as productive members of society? romney: thank you. lorraine? did i get that right? good. thank you for your question. and let me step back and tell you what i would like to do with our immigration policy broadly and include an answer to your question. but first of all, this is a nation of immigrants. we welcome people coming to this country as immigrants. my dad was born in mexico of american parents; ann's dad was born in wales and is a first- generation american. we welcome legal immigrants into this country. i want our legal system to work better. i want it to be streamlined. i want it to be clearer. i don't think you have to -- shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. i also think that we should give visas to people -- green cards, rather, to people who graduate with skills that we need. people around the world with accredited degrees in science and math get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the u.s. of a. we should make sure our legal

system works. number two, we're going to have to stop illegal immigration. there are 4 million people who are waiting in line to get here legally. those who've come here illegally take their place. so i will not grant amnesty to those who have come here illegally. what i will do is i'll put in place an employment verification system and make sure that employers that hire people who have come here illegally are sanctioned for doing so. i won't put in place magnets for people coming here illegally. so for instance, i would not give driver's licenses to those that have come here illegally as the president would. the kids of those that came here illegally, those kids, i think, should have a pathway to become a permanent resident of the united states and military service, for instance, is one way they would have that kind of pathway to become a permanent resident. romney: now when the president ran for office, he said that he'd put in place, in his first

year, a piece of legislation -- he'd file a bill in his first year that would reform our -- our immigration system, protect legal immigration, stop illegal immigration. he didn't do it. he had a democrat house, a democrat senate, super majority in both houses. why did he fail to even promote legislation that would have provided an answer for those that want to come legally and for those that are here illegally today? what's a question i think the -- the president will have a chance to answer right now. obama: good, i look forward to it. was -- lorranna -- lorraine -- we are a nation of immigrants. i mean we're just a few miles away from ellis island. we all understand what this country has become because talent from all around the world wants to come here. people are willing to take risks. people who want to build on their dreams and make sure their kids have an even bigger dreams than they have. but we're also a nation of laws.

so what i've said is we need to fix a broken immigration system and i've done everything that i can on my own and sought cooperation from congress to make sure that we fix the system. the first thing we did was to streamline the legal immigration system, to reduce the backlog, make it easier, simpler and cheaper for people who are waiting in line, obeying the law to make sure that they can come here and contribute to our country and that's good for our economic growth. they'll start new businesses. they'll make things happen to create jobs here in the united states. number two, we do have to deal with our border so we put more border patrol on the -- any time in history and the flow of undocumented works across the border is actually lower than it's been in 40 years. what i've also said is if we're going to go after folks who are here illegally, we should do it smartly and go after folks who are criminals, gang bangers, people who are hurting the community, not after students, not after folks who are here just because they're trying to figure out how to feed their families.

and that's what we've done. and what i've also said is for young people who come here, brought here often times by their parents. had gone to school here, pledged allegiance to the flag. think of this as their country. understand themselves as americans in every way except having papers. and we should make sure that we give them a pathway to citizenship. and that's what i've done administratively. now, governor romney just said, you know he wants to help those young people too, but during the republican primary, he said, "i will veto the dream act", that would allow these young people to have access." his main strategy during the republican primary was to say, "we're going to encourage self- deportation." making life so miserable on folks that they'll leave. he called the arizona law a model for the nation. part of the arizona law said

that law enforcement officers could stop folks because they suspected maybe they looked like they might be undocumented workers and check their papers. you know what? if my daughter or yours looks to somebody like they're not a citizen, i don't want -- i don't want to empower somebody like that. so, we can fix this system in a comprehensive way. and when governor romney says, the challenge is, "well obama didn't try." that's not true. i have sat down with democrats and republicans at the beginning of my term. and i said, let's fix this system. including senators previously who had supported it on the republican side. but it's very hard for republican's in congress to support comprehensive immigration reform, if their standard bearer has said that, this is not something i'm interested in supporting. crowley: let me get the governor in here, mr. president. let's speak to, if you could -- romney: yes. crowley: -- the idea of self- deportation? romney: no, let me go back and speak to the points that the president made and let's get them correct.

i did not say that the arizona law was a model for the nation in that aspect. i said that the e-verify portion of the arizona law, which is -- which is the portion of the law which says that employers could be able to determine whether someone is here illegally or not illegally, that that was a model for the nation. that's number one. number two, i asked the president a question i think hispanics and immigrants all over the nation have asked. he was asked this on univision the other day. why, when you said you'd filed legislation in your first year didn't you do it? and he didn't answer. he -- he doesn't answer that question. he said the standard bearer wasn't for it. i'm glad you thought i was a standard bearer four years ago, but i wasn't. four years ago you said in your first year you would file legislation. in his first year, i was just getting -- licking my wounds from having been beaten by john mccain, all right. i was not the standard bearer. my -- my view is that this president should have honored his promise to do as he said. now, let me mention one other thing, and that is self- deportation says let people make their own choice.

what i was saying is, we're not going to round up 12 million people, undocumented illegals, and take them out of the nation. instead let people make their own choice. and if they -- if they find that -- that they can't get the benefits here that they want and they can't -- and they can't find the job they want, then they'll make a decision to go a place where -- where they have better opportunities. but i'm not in favor of rounding up people and -- and -- and taking them out of this country. i am in favor, as the president has said, and i agree with him, which is that if people have committed crimes we got to get them out of this country. romney: let me mention something else the president said. it was a moment ago and i didn't get a chance to, when he was describing chinese investments and so forth. obama: candy? hold on a second. the -- romney: mr. president, i'm still speaking. romney: mr. president, let me finish. romney: i've gotta continue. crowley: governor romney, you can make it short. see all these people? they've been waiting for you. [indiscernible] make it short [indiscernible]. romney: just going to make a point. any investments i have over the last eight years have been managed by a blind trust. and i understand they do

include investments outside the united states, including in -- in chinese companies. mr. president, have you looked at your pension? have you looked at your pension? obama: i've got to say -- romney: mr. president, have you looked at your pension? obama: you know, i -- i don't look at my pension. it's not as big as yours so it doesn't take as long. romney: well, let me give you some advice. obama: i don't check it that often. romney: let me give you some advice. look at your pension. you also have investments in chinese companies. you also have investments outside the united states. you also have investments through a cayman's trust. crowley: we're way off topic here, governor romney. obama: i thought we were talking about immigration. i do want to make sure that -- crowley: if i could have you sit down, governor romney. thank you. obama: i do want to make sure that -- i do want to make sure that we just understand something. governor romney says he wasn't referring to arizona as a model for the nation. his top adviser on immigration is the guy who designed the arizona law, the entirety of it; not e-verify, the whole thing. that's his policy. and it's a bad policy. and it won't help us grow. look, when we think about immigration, we have to understand there are folks all

around the world who still see america as the land of promise. and they provide us energy and they provide us innovation and they start companies like intel and google. and we want to encourage that. now, we've got to make sure that we do it in a smart way and a comprehensive way, and we make the legal system better. but when we make this into a divisive political issue, and when we don't have bipartisan support -- i can deliver, governor, a whole bunch of democrats to get comprehensive immigration reform done, and we can't -- romney: i'll get it done. i'll get it done. first year -- obama: we can't -- we have not seen republicans serious about this issue at all. and it's time for them to get serious on it. crowley: mr. president, let me move you on here please. mr. president, [indiscernible].

obama: this used to be a bipartisan issue. crowley: don't go away, though -- right. don't go away because i -- i want you to talk to kerry ladka who wants to switch the topic for us. obama: ok. hi, kerry. >> good evening, mr. president. obama: i'm sorry. what's your name? >> it's kerry, kerry ladka. obama: great to see you. >> this question actually comes from a brain trust of my friends at global telecom supply in minneola yesterday. obama: ah. >> we were sitting around, talking about libya, and we were reading and became aware of reports that the state department refused extra security for our embassy in benghazi, libya, prior to the attacks that killed four americans. who was it that denied enhanced security and why? obama: well, let me first of all talk about our diplomats, because they serve all around the world and do an incredible job in a very dangerous situation. and these aren't just representatives of the united states, they are my representatives. i send them there, oftentimes into harm's way. i know these folks and i know their families. so nobody is more concerned

about their safety and security than i am. so as soon as we found out that the benghazi consulate was being overrun, i was on the phone with my national security team and i gave them three instructions. number one, beef up our security and procedures, not just in libya, but at every embassy and consulate in the region. number two, investigate exactly what happened, regardless of where the facts lead us, to make sure folks are held accountable and it doesn't happen again. and number three, we are going to find out who did this and we're going to hunt them down, because one of the things that i've said throughout my presidency is when folks mess with americans, we go after them. obama: now governor romney had a very different response. while we were still dealing with our diplomats being threatened, governor romney put out a press release, trying to make political points, and that's not how a commander in chief operates.

you don't turn national security into a political issue. certainly not right when it's happening. and people -- not everybody agrees with some of the decisions i've made. but when it comes to our national security, i mean what i say. i said i'd end the war in libya -- in -- in iraq, and i did. i said that we'd go after al- qaeda and bin laden, we have. i said we'd transition out of afghanistan, and start making sure that afghans are responsible for their own security, that's what i'm doing. and when it comes to this issue, when i say that we are going to find out exactly what happened, everybody will be held accountable. and i am ultimately responsible for what's taking place there because these are my folks, and i'm the one who has to greet those coffins when they come home. you know that i mean what i say. crowley: mr. president, i'm going to move us along. governor? romney: thank you kerry for your question, it's an important one.

and -- and i -- i think the president just said correctly that the buck does stop at his desk and -- and he takes responsibility for -- for that -- for the failure in providing those security resources, and -- and those terrible things may well happen from time to time. i -- i'm -- i feel very deeply sympathetic for the families of those who lost loved ones. and today there's a memorial service for one of those that was lost in this tragedy. we -- we think of their families and care for them deeply. there were other issues associated with this -- with this tragedy. there were many days that passed before we knew whether this was a spontaneous demonstration, or actually whether it was a terrorist attack. romney: and there was no demonstration involved. it was a terrorist attack and it took a long time for that to be told to the american people. whether there was some misleading, or instead whether we just didn't know what happened, you have to ask yourself why didn't we know five days later when the ambassador to the united nations went on tv to say that this was a demonstration.

how could we have not known? but i find more troubling than this, that on -- on the day following the assassination of the united states ambassador, the first time that's happened since 1979, when -- when we have four americans killed there, when apparently we didn't know what happened, that the president, the day after that happened, flies to las vegas for a political fund-raiser, then the next day to colorado for another event, other political event. i think these -- these actions taken by a president and a leader have symbolic significance and perhaps even material significance in that you'd hope that during that time we could call in the people who were actually eyewitnesses. we've read their accounts now about what happened. it was very clear this was not a demonstration. this was an attack by terrorists. and this calls into question the president's whole policy in the middle east. look what's happening in syria, in egypt, now in libya. consider the distance between ourselves and -- and israel, the president said that -- that he

was going to put daylight between us and israel. we have iran four years closer to a nuclear bomb. syria -- syria's not just a tragedy of 30,000 civilians being killed by a military, but also a strategic -- strategically significant player for america. the president's policies throughout the middle east began with an apology tour and -- and -- and pursue a strategy of leading from behind, and this strategy is unraveling before our very eyes. crowley: because we're -- we're closing in, i want to still get a lot of people in. i want to ask you something, mr. president, and then have the governor just quickly. your secretary of state, as i'm sure you know, has said that she takes full responsibility for the attack on the diplomatic mission in benghazi. does the buck stop with your secretary of state as far as what went on here? obama: secretary clinton has done an extraordinary job. but she works for me. i'm the president and i'm always responsible, and that's why nobody's more interested in finding out exactly what happened than i do.

the day after the attack, governor, i stood in the rose garden and i told the american people in the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened. that this was an act of terror and i also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime. and then a few days later, i was there greeting the caskets coming into andrews air force base and grieving with the families. and the suggestion that anybody in my team, whether the secretary of state, our u.n. ambassador, anybody on my team would play politics or mislead when we've lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. that's not what we do. that's not what i do as president, that's not what i do as commander in chief. crowley: governor, if you want to --

romney: yes, i -- i -- crowley: quickly to this please. romney: i -- i think interesting the president just said something which -- which is that on the day after the attack he went into the rose garden and said that this was an act of terror. obama: that's what i said. romney: you said in the rose garden the day after the attack, it was an act of terror. it was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you're saying? obama: please proceed governor. romney: i want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in benghazi an act of terror. obama: get the transcript. crowley: it -- it -- it -- he did in fact, sir. so let me -- let me call it an act of terror -- obama: can you say that a little louder, candy? crowley: he -- he did call it an act of terror. it did as well take -- it did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea there being a riot out there about this tape to come out. you are correct about that. romney: this -- the administration -- the administration indicated this was a reaction to a video and was a spontaneous reaction.

crowley: it did. romney: it took them a long time to say this was a terrorist act by a terrorist group. and to suggest -- am i incorrect in that regard, on sunday, the -- your secretary -- obama: candy? romney: excuse me. the ambassador of the united nations went on the sunday television shows and spoke about how -- obama: candy, i'm -- romney: -- this was a spontaneous -- crowley: mr. president, let me -- obama: i'm happy to have a longer conversation -- crowley: i know you -- obama: -- about foreign policy. crowley: absolutely. but i want to -- i want to move you on and also -- obama: ok. i'm happy to do that, too. crowley: -- the transcripts and -- obama: i just want to make sure that -- crowley: -- figure out what we -- obama: -- all of these wonderful folks are going to have a chance to get some of their questions answered. crowley: because what i -- what i want to do, mr. president, stand there a second, because i want to introduce you to nina gonzalez, who brought up a question that we hear a lot, both over the internet and from this crowd. >> president obama, during the democratic national convention in 2008, you stated you wanted to keep ak-47s out of the hands of criminals. what has your administration done or planned to do to limit

the availability of assault weapons? obama: we're a nation that believes in the second amendment, and i believe in the second amendment. we've got a long tradition of hunting and sportsmen and people who want to make sure they can protect themselves. but there have been too many instances during the course of my presidency, where i've had to comfort families who have lost somebody. most recently out in aurora. you know, just a couple of weeks ago, actually, probably about a month, i saw a mother, who i had met at the bedside of her son, who had been shot in that theater. and her son had been shot through the head. and we spent some time, and we said a prayer and, remarkably, about two months later, this young man and his mom showed up, and he looked unbelievable,

good as new. but there were a lot of families who didn't have that good fortune and whose sons or daughters or husbands didn't survive. so my belief is that we have to enforce the laws we've already got, make sure that we're keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, those who are mentally ill. we've done a much better job in terms of background checks, but we've got more to do when it comes to enforcement. but i also share your belief that weapons that were designed for soldiers in war theaters don't belong on our streets. is so what i'm trying to do to get a broader conversation about how do we reduce the violence generally. part of it is seeing if we can get an assault weapons ban reintroduced. but part of it is also looking at other sources of the violence. because frankly, in my home town

of chicago, there's an awful lot of violence and they're not using ak-47s. they're using cheap hand guns. and so what can we do to intervene, to make sure that young people have opportunity; that our schools are working; that if there's violence on the streets, that working with faith groups and law enforcement, we can catch it before it gets out of control. and so what i want is a -- is a comprehensive strategy. part of it is seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. but part of it is also going deeper and seeing if we can get into these communities and making sure we catch violent impulses before they occur. crowley: governor romney, the question is about assault weapons, ak-47s. romney: yeah, i'm not in favor of new pieces of legislation on -- on guns and taking guns away or making certain guns illegal. we, of course, don't want to have automatic weapons, and that's already illegal in this country to have automatic weapons.

what i believe is we have to do, as the president mentioned towards the end of his remarks there, which is to make enormous efforts to enforce the gun laws that we have, and to change the culture of violence that we have. and you ask how -- how are we going to do that? and there are a number of things. he mentioned good schools. i totally agree. we were able to drive our schools to be number one in the nation in my state. and i believe if we do a better job in education, we'll -- we'll give people the -- the hope and opportunity they deserve and perhaps less violence from that. but let me mention another thing. and that is parents. we need moms and dads, helping to raise kids. wherever possible the -- the benefit of having two parents in the home, and that's not always possible. a lot of great single moms, single dads. but gosh to tell our kids that before they have babies, they ought to think about getting married to someone, that's a great idea. because if there's a two parent family, the prospect of living in poverty goes down dramatically. the opportunities that the child will -- will be able to achieve increase dramatically. so we can make changes in the way our culture works to help

bring people away from violence and give them opportunity, and bring them in the american system. the -- the greatest failure we've had with regards to -- to gun violence in some respects is what -- what is known as fast and furious. which was a program under this administration, and how it worked exactly i think we don't know precisely, where thousands of automatic, and ak-47 type weapons were -- were given to people that ultimately gave them to -- to drug lords. they used those weapons against -- against their own citizens and killed americans with them. and this was a -- this was a program of the government. for what purpose it was put in place, i can't imagine. but it's one of the great tragedies related to violence in our society which has occurred during this administration. which i think the american people would like to understand fully, it's been investigated to a degree, but -- but the administration has carried out executive privilege to prevent all of the information from coming out.

i'd like to understand who it was that did this, what the idea was behind it, why it led to the violence, thousands of guns going to mexican drug lords. obama: candy? crowley: governor, governor, if i could, the question was about these assault weapons that once were once banned and are no longer banned. i know that you signed an assault weapons ban when you were in massachusetts, obviously, with this question, you no longer do support that. why is that, given the kind of violence that we see sometimes with these mass killings? why is it that you have changed your mind? romney: well, candy, actually, in my state, the pro-gun folks and the anti-gun folks came together and put together a piece of legislation. and it's referred to as an assault weapon ban, but it had, at the signing of the bill, both the pro-gun and the anti- gun people came together, because it provided opportunities for both that both wanted. there were hunting opportunities, for instance, that haven't previously been available and so forth, so it was a mutually agreed- upon piece of legislation. that's what we need more of,

candy. what we have right now in washington is a place that's gridlocked. crowley: so i could -- if you could get people to agree to it, you would be for it? romney: we have -- obama: candy? romney: -- we haven't had the leadership in washington to work on a bipartisan basis. i was able to do that in my state and bring these two together. crowley: quickly, mr. president. obama: the -- first of all, i think governor romney was for an assault weapons ban before he was against it. and he said that the reason he changed his mind was, in part, because he was seeking the endorsement of the national rifle association. so that's on the record. but i think that one area we agree on is the important of parents and the importance of schools, because i do believe that if our young people have opportunity, then they are less likely to engage in these kinds of violent acts. we're not going to eliminate everybody who is mentally disturbed and we have got to make sure they don't get weapons. obama: because i do believe that if our young people have

opportunity, then they're less likely to engage in these kind of violent acts. we're not going to eliminate everybody who is mentally disturbed, and we've got to make sure they don't get weapons. but we can make a difference in terms ensuring that every young person in america, regardless of where they come from, what they look like, have a chance to succeed. and, candy, we haven't had a chance to talk about education much, but i think it is very important to understand that the reforms we've put in place, working with 46 governors around the country, are seeing schools that are some of the ones that are the toughest for kids starting to succeed. we're starting to see gains in math and science. when it comes to community colleges, we are setting up programs, including with nassau community college, to retrain workers, including young people who may have dropped out of school but now are getting another chance, training them for the jobs that exist right now. and in fact, employers are looking for skilled workers. and so we're matching them up. giving them access to higher education. as i said, we have made sure that millions of young people are able to get an education that they weren't able to get before. now -- crowley: mr. president, i have to -- i have to move you along

here. you said you wanted to -- crowley: we need to do it here. obama: but -- but it'll -- it'll -- it'll be -- obama: just one second. crowley: one -- obama: because -- because this is important. this is part of the choice in this election. when governor romney was asked whether teachers, hiring more teachers was important to growing our economy, governor romney said that doesn't grow our economy. when -- when he was asked would class size -- crowley: the question, mr. president, was guns here, so i need to move us along. obama: i understand. crowley: you know, the question was guns. so let me -- let me bring in another -- obama: but this will make a difference in terms of whether or not we can move this economy forward for these young people -- crowley: i understand. obama: and reduce our violence. crowley: ok. thank you so much. i want to ask carol goldberg to stand up, because she gets to a question that both these men have been passionate about. it's for governor romney. >> the outsourcing of american jobs overseas has taken a toll on our economy. what plans do you have to put back and keep jobs here in the united states? romney: boy, great question and important question, because you're absolutely right. the place where we've seen manufacturing go has been china. china is now the largest

manufacturer in the world. it used to be the united states of america. a lot of good people have lost jobs. a half a million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the last four years. that's total over the last four years. one of the reasons for that is that people think it's more attractive in some cases to go offshore than to stay here. we have made it less attractive for enterprises to stay here than to go offshore from time to time. we have made it less attractive for enterprises to stay here than to go offshore from time to time. what i will do as president is make sure it's more attractive to come to america again. this is the way we're going to create jobs in this country. it's not by trickle-down government, saying we're going to take more money from people and hire more government workers, raise more taxes, put in place more regulations. trickle-down government has never worked here, has never worked anywhere. i want to make america the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs, for small business, for big business, to invest and grow in america. now, we're going to have to make sure that as we trade with other nations that they play by the rules. and china hasn't. one

of the reasons -- or one of the ways they don't play by the rules is artificially holding down the value of their currency. because if they put their currency down low, that means their prices on their goods are low. and that makes them advantageous in the marketplace. we lose sales. and manufacturers here in the u.s. making the same products can't compete. china has been a currency manipulator for years and years and years. and the president has a regular opportunity to label them as a currency manipulator, but refuses to do so. on day one, i will label china a currency manipulator, which will allow me as president to be able to put in place, if necessary, tariffs where i believe that they are taking unfair advantage of our manufacturers. so we're going to make sure that people we trade with around the world play by the rules. but let me -- let me not just stop there. don't forget, what's key to bringing back jobs here is not just finding someone else to punish, and i'm going to be

strict with people who we trade with to make sure they -- they follow the law and play by the rules, but it's also to make america the most attractive place in the world for businesses of all kinds. that's why i want to down the tax rates on small employers, big employers, so they want to be here. canada's tax rate on companies is now 15 percent. ours is 35 percent. so if you're starting a business, where would you rather start it? we have to be competitive if we're going to create more jobs here. regulations have quadrupled. the rate of regulations quadrupled under this president. i talk to small businesses across the country. they say, "we feel like we're under attack from our own government." i want to make sure that regulators see their job as encouraging small business, not crushing it. and there's no question but that obamacare has been an extraordinary deterrent to enterprises of all kinds hiring people. my priority is making sure that we get more people hired. if we have more people hired, if we get back manufacturing jobs, if

we get back all kinds of jobs into this country, then you're going to see rising incomes again. the reason incomes are down is because unemployment is so high. i know what it takes to get this to happen, and my plan will do that, and one part of it is to make sure that we keep china playing by the rules. >> mr. president, two minutes here, because we are then going to go to our last question >> ok. we need to create jobs here. and both governor romney and i agree actually that we should lower our corporate tax rate. it's too high. but there's a difference in terms of how we would do it. i want to close loopholes that allow companies to deduct expenses when they move to china; that allow them to profit offshore and not have to get taxed, so they have tax advantages offshore. all those changes in our tax code would make a difference.

now, governor romney actually wants to expand those tax breaks. one of his big ideas when it comes to corporate tax reform would be to say, if you invest overseas, you make profits overseas, you don't have to pay u.s. taxes. but, of course, if you're a small business or a mom-and-pop business or a big business starting up here, you've got to pay even the reduced rate that governor romney's talking about. and it's estimated that that will create 800,000 new jobs. the problem is they'll be in china. or india. or germany. that's not the way we're going to create jobs here. the way we're going to create jobs here is not just to change our tax code, but also to double our exports. and we are on pace to double our exports, one of the commitments i made when i was president. that's creating tens of thousands of jobs all across the country. that's why we've kept on pushing trade deals, but trade deals that make sure that american workers and american

businesses are getting a good deal. now, governor romney talked about china, as i already indicated. in the private sector, governor romney's company invested in what were called pioneers of outsourcing. that's not my phrase. that's what reporters called it. and as far as currency manipulation, the currency has actually gone up 11 percent since i've been president because we have pushed them hard. and we've put unprecedented trade pressure on china. that's why exports have significantly increased under my presidency. that's going to help to create jobs here. >> mr. president, we have a really short time for a quick discussion here. ipad, the macs, the iphones, they are all manufactured in china. one of the major reasons is labor is so much cheaper here. how do you convince a great american company to bring that manufacturing back here? >> the answer is very straightforward. we can compete with anyone in the world as long as the playing field is level. china's been cheating over the years. one by holding down the value of their

currency. number two, by stealing our intellectual property; our designs, our patents, our technology. there's even an apple store in china that's a counterfeit apple store, selling counterfeit goods. they hack into our computers. we will have to have people play on a fair basis, that's number one. number two, we have to make america the most attractive place for entrepreneurs, for people who want to expand their business. that's what brings jobs in. the president's characterization of my tax plan... >> is completely...is completely... >> is completely false. let me tell you... >> let me to go the president here because we really are running out of time. and the question is can we ever get -- we can't get wages like that. it can't be sustained. >> candy, there are some jobs that are not going to come back. because they are low wage, low skill jobs. i want high wage, high skill jobs. that's why we have to emphasize manufacturing.

that's why we have to invest in advanced manufacturing. that's why we've got to make sure that we've got the best science and research in the world. and when we talk about deficits, if we're adding to our deficit for tax cuts for folks who don't need them, and we're cutting investments in research and science that will create the next apple, create the next new innovation that will sell products around the world, we will lose that race. if we're not training engineers to make sure that they are equipped here in this country. then companies won't come here. those investments are what's going to help to make sure that we continue to lead this world economy, not just next year, but 10 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now. >> thanks mr. president. >> governor romney? >> government does not create jobs. government does not create jobs. >> governor romney, i want to introduce you to barry green, because he's going to have the last question to you first? >> barry? where is barry? >> hi, governor. i think this is a tough question. to each of you. what do you believe is the biggest misperception that the american people have about you as a man and a candidate? using

specific examples, can you take this opportunity to debunk that misperception and set us straight? >> thank you, and that's an opportunity for me, and i appreciate it. in the nature of a campaign, it seems that some campaigns are focused on attacking a person rather than prescribing their own future and the things they'd like to do. in the course of that, i think the president's campaign has tried to characterize me as -- as someone who's very different than who i am. i care about 100 percent of the american people. i want 100 percent of the american people to have a bright and prosperous future. i care about our kids. i understand what it takes to make a bright and prosperous future for america again. i spent my

life in the private sector, not in government. i'm a guy who wants to help with the experience i have, the american people. my -- my passion probably flows from the fact that i believe in god. and i believe we're all children of the same god. i believe we have a responsibility to care for one another. i -- i served as a missionary for my church. i served as a pastor in my congregation for about 10 years. i've sat across the table from people who were out of work and worked with them to try and find new work or to help them through tough times. i went to the olympics when they were in trouble to try and get them on track. and as governor of my state, i was able to get 100 percent of my people insured, all my kids, about 98 percent of the adults. i was able also to get our schools ranked number one in the nation, so 100 percent of our kids would have a bright opportunity for a future. i understand that i can get this country on track again. we don't have to settle for what we're going through. we don't have to settle for gasoline at four bucks. we don't have to settle for unemployment at a chronically high level. we don't have to settle for 47 million people on food stamps. we don't have to settle for 50

percent of kids coming out of college not able to get work. we don't have to settle for 23 million people struggling to find a good job. if i become president, i'll get america working again. i will get us on track to a balanced budget. the president hasn't. i will. i'll make sure we can reform medicare and social security to preserve them for coming -- coming generations. the president said he would. he didn't. governor... i'll let our incomes up. and by the way, i've done these things. i served as governor and showed i could get them done. mr. president, last two minutes belong to you. >> barry, i think a lot of this campaign, maybe over the last four years, has been devoted to this nation that i think government creates jobs, that that somehow is the answer. that's not what i believe. i believe that the free enterprise system is the greatest engine of prosperity the world's ever known. i believe in self-reliance and individual initiative and risk takers being rewarded. but i also believe that everybody should have a fair shot and everybody should do their fair share and everybody should play by the same rules, because

that's how our economy's grown. that's how we built the world's greatest middle class. and -- and that is part of what's at stake in this election. there's a fundamentally different vision about how we move our country forward. i believe governor romney is a good man. loves his family, cares about his faith. but i also believe that when he said behind closed doors that 47 percent of the country considered themselves victims who refuse personal responsibility, think about who he was talking about. folks on social security who've worked all their lives. veterans who've sacrificed for this country. students who are out there trying to hopefully advance their own dreams, but also this country's dreams. soldiers who are overseas

fighting for us right now. people who are working hard every day, paying payroll tax, gas taxes, but don't make enough income. and i want to fight for them. that's what i've been doing for the last four years. because if they succeed, i believe the country succeeds. when my grandfather fought in world war ii and he came back and he got a g.i. bill and that allowed him to go to college, that wasn't a handout. that was something that advanced the entire country. and i want to make sure that the next generation has those same opportunities. that's why i'm asking for your vote and that's why i'm asking for another four years. >> president obama, governor romney, thank you for being here tonight. on that note we have come to an end of this town hall debate. our thanks to the participants for their time and to the people of hofstra university for their hospitality. the next and final debate takes place monday night at lynn university in boca raton, florida. don't forget to watch. election day is three weeks from today. don't forget to vote. good night.

>> here is some of what you had to say. >> every time it went to president obama, she always blamed the other individual. he always said his opponent was doing this. his opponent wasn't doing that. and he never said what he would do. he always wanted to show the faults on everybody else. >> romney every time he was asked the question, he always wants to, what the president is doing wrong. i think the president is doing a fine job. at the end when obama went over to shake romney's hand, he wouldn't even shake his hand. i think that is very disrespectful. >> every debate that goes on becomes more and more caricatured. we cannot get the specifics. we seem to be approached more and more with trying to warm up

the other candidate. tonight was disappointing. >> romney seemed to be dodging a lot of questions by talking about with the main focus was on and saying -- but not actually answering the full question. >> president obama just completely embarrassed the presidency. i cannot believe he is the president of the night states. with his body language, demeanor and ability to answer the questions that he is delivered, he cannot even look mitt romney in the high 20's asked a direct question. >> the present this time did in my opinion act -- when things got out of hand, he did get out of hand. i think he was in more of a leadership role. >> i think the moderator was better than the moderator in the

last debate, keeping order and what not. but i think president obama keeps trying to place the blame game, blaming what he inherited instead of going off of his record. >> i have never seen a debate were the moderator interjected her thoughts to determine the outcome. candy crowley when there were talking about the attack in benghazi basically told mitt romney that he was a liar on what the president said about terrorism, when clearly the statement was it was because of some cartoon character. he said he is right. the crowd started clapping. but was cut of unusual for the moderator to interject themself. >> i watched the debate. and i watched it very intently. and i walked away once again thinking that mitt romney has

never laid out any specifics. it is one thing to come up with these grandiose notions and to place the blame, but even when the moderator asked him to be more specific he just could not. it just kept repeating what to me and the people that i was watching with sounded like scripted answers. >> he asked obama about the pension. his own pension. he would not answer. he always turns against -- turns the other way. will not answer any questions. court's is really wild to your romney say that the government cannot create jobs after he spent so much time arguing that the president was responsible for not creating jobs. i mean the guy has got to say it one way or the other. >> i will admit romney seemed to teacher off at the end. both candidates drifted away from the initial questions.

>> answer the questions. othert telling me what the guy is not doing, tell me what we are going to do. will let them say anything, tell anything. we sit there and believed it. if you honestly -- both of them looked like they planned the same act down the same road. tell us what you are going to do. let us make the decision. courts as we follow the candidates on the road to the white house, watch and engage with c-span. >> and today we are live in boca raton [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012]

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>> are c-span cameras live in boca raton, florida at the university ahead of the debate tomorrow night. a look at the stage. they will debate foreign policy, beginning at 9:00 p.m. eastern, here on c-span, c-span radio and online at c-span.org. >> memories of a george mcgovern, former south dakota

congressman, senator and presidential candidate coming in, he died this morning. president obama released a statement on his passing. when the people of south dakota sent him to washington, the hero of war became a champion for peace. george was a state to men. the clintons also released a statement. of all his passion, he was most committed to feeding the hungry at home and around the world. president clinton awarded mr. mcgovern the medal of freedom in 2000. george mcgovern died this morning. he was 90. and now, we will show you the first of the three presidential debates. this one in denver.

jim leher the moderator. >> good evening from the magness arena. i welcome you to the first presidential debate between president barack obama and the republican nominee mitt romney. this debate and the next three are sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. tonight's 90 minutes will be about domestic issues and will follow a format designed by the commission. there will be six 15-minute segments with two-minute answers for the first question then open discussion for the

remainder of the segment. thousands of people offered suggestions on questions via the internet and other means. i made the final selections. they were not submitted for approval to the commission or the candidates. the segments will be three on the economy -- one each on health care, the role of goverment, and governing. there will be an emphasis throughout on differences, specifics, and choices. both will have two-minute closing statements. the audience has promised to remain silent. no cheers, applause, or other noisy, distracting things so we may concentrate on what the candidates have to say. there is a noise exception right now as we welcome

president obama and governor romney. [applause] welcome to you both. let's start with the economy. segment one. let's begin with jobs. what are the major differences between the two of you about how you would go about creating new jobs? you have two minutes each to start. the coin toss has determined that mr. president goes first.

>> thank you very much for this opportunity. thank you, governor romney and the university of denver. 20 years ago, i became the luckiest man on earth because michelle obama agreed to marry me. i want to wish you happy anniversary and let you know that a year from now, we will not be celebrating it in front of 40 million people. four years ago, we went through the worst financial crisis since the great depression. millions of jobs were lost. the auto industry was on the brink of collapse. the financial system froze up. because of the resilience and the determination of the american people, we have begun to fight our way back. we have seen five million jobs in the private sector created. the auto industry has come back. housing has begun to rise. we have a lot of work to do.

the question here is not where we have been but where we are going. governor romney has a perspective that says if we cut taxes, skew toward the wealthy, and roll back regulations, we will be better off. i have a different view. we have to invest in education and training. it is important to develop new sources of oil in america, change our tax code to help small businesses and companies investing in the united states, that we take some of the money that we are saving rebuild america. it will be up to the voters what path we should take. will we double down on the top- down economic policies that helped get us into this mess or embrace a new economic patriotism that says america

does best when the middle class does best? i look forward to having that debate. >> it is in honor to be here with you. i appreciate the chance to be with the president. congratulations to you, mr. president, on your anniversary. i am sure this is the most romantic place you could imagine, here with me. congratulations. this is a tender topic. i have met people across the country. i was in dayton, ohio, and a woman said, "i have been out of work since may. can you help me?" yesterday was a rally in denver. a woman with a baby said, "my husband has had four jobs in three years -- part-time jobs. he lost his recent job." we lost our home. can you help us?" yes, we can. it will take a different path,

not the one we have been on. not the one the president describes as a top-down tax cut for the rich. my plan has five parts -- get us not american energy independent to create 4 million jobs. open up trade in latin america. crackdown on china if they cheat. make sure people have the skills to succeed in the best schools in the world. get us to a balanced budget, champion small business. it is small business that creates jobs in america. over the last four years, small- business people decided america may not be the place to open a new business because new business start-ups are down to a 30-year low. i know what it takes to hire people. i am concerned that the path we are on is unsuccessful.

the president has a view very similar to what he had four years ago that a bigger government spending more, taxing more. trickle-down government would work. that is not the right answer for america. i will restore the vitality that gets america working again. >> please respond directly to the trickle-down approach. >> let me talk about what i think we need to do. we have to improve our education system. we have made enormous progress drawing on ideas from democrats and republicans. they are starting to show gains in some of the toughest-to- deal-with schools. we have a program called race to the top that has prompted reforms in 46 states, raising standards, improving how we train teachers. i want to hire another 100,000 new math and science teachers and create 2 million more slots

in our community colleges so people can get trained for the jobs that are out there. i want to make sure we keep tuition low for our young people. when it comes to our tax code, we agree that our corporate tax rate is too high. i want to lower its for manufacturing. i want to close loopholes that are giving incentives for companies shipping jobs overseas. i want to give tax breaks for companies investing in the united states on energy. we agree we have to boost american energy production, and oil and natural gas production have been higher than they have been in years.

we have to look at the energy source of the future like wind, solar, and biofuels and make those investments. all of this is possible. we have to close our deficit. we will discuss how we deal with our tax code and how we make sure we are reducing spending in a response away and have enough revenue to make those investments. governor romney's central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut on top of the extension of the bush tax cut. $2 trillion in additional military spending -- without dumping the cost on the middle-class americans. that is one of the central questions of this campaign. >> you have spoken about a lot of different things. governor romney, do you have a question you would like to ask directly about something he just said? >> i do not have a tax-cut scale you're talking about.

we have to provide tax relief to people in the middle class. i will not reduce the share of taxes paid by high income people. they are doing fine in the economy. the people who are having a hard time are middle-income americans. under the president's policies, they have been buried. middle income americans have seen their income decreased by $4,300. this is a tax in itself -- the economy tax. gasoline prices have doubled under the president, electric rates are up, food prices are up, health-care costs have gone up by $2,500 per family. the question is how to get them going again. it is energy and trade. the right kind of training programs. the president mentioned those ideas. education. it is key.

it is the future of our economy. we have 47 training programs. they are reporting to eight agencies. we have to get those dollars back to the states and to the workers so they can create pathways into training they need for jobs that will help them. taxation. we should bring the tax rates down. for corporations and individuals. for us not to lose revenue, i lowered deductions and credits and intentions so we keep taking in the same money when you account for growth. energy is critical. for us not to lose revenue, i lowered deductions and credits and intentions so we keep taking in the same money when you account for growth. energy is critical. the president pointed out that production of oil and gas in the u.s. is up but not due to his policies -- in spite of his policies. all of the increase in natural gas and oil has happened on private land, not on government land.

your administration has cut the number of permits and licenses in half. if i am president, i will double them. i will get the oil from offshore and alaska. i like coal. people in the coal industry feel like it is getting crushed by your policies. i want to get america and north american energy independence so we can create jobs. i am not looking to cut massive taxes and reduce the revenues going into the government. my number one principle is that there will be no tax cut that adds to the deficit. no tax cut that adds to the deficit. i want to reduce the burden being paid by middle-income americans. i cannot reduce the burden paid by high-income americans. any language of the contrary is not accurate. >> let's talk about taxes. it is instructive.

four years ago when i stood on the stage, i said that i would cut taxes for middle-class families. that is what i did. we cut taxes for middle-class families by about $3,600. we do best when the middle class is doing well. by giving them those tax cuts, they have a little more money in their pockets so they can buy a new car. they are in a better position to weather the recession we went through. they can buy a computer for their kid who goes to college, which means they spend more money. businesses make more profits and hire more. governor romney's proposal that he has promoted for 18 months calls for a $5 trillion cut. he is saying he will pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions.

he has been asked how he would close those loopholes and deductions. he has not been able to identify them. when you add up all the loopholes and deductions that upper-income individuals are taking advantage of, take those all away. you do not come close to paying for $5 trillion. that is why independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet governor romney's pledge of not reducing the deficit or not adding to the deficit is by burdening middle- class families. they would pay about $2,000 more. that is not my analysis. that is the analysis of the economists.

that kind of top down economics where people at the top are doing well while middle-class families are burdened further, that is not what i believe is a recipe for economic growth. >> what is the difference? let's stay on taxes for a moment. >> everything he said about my tax plan is inaccurate. if the tax plan he described were a tax plan i were going to support, i would say no. i will not put in place a tax cut that adds to the deficit. that is part one. no economist can say mitt romney's tax plan adds $5 trillion. i will not reduce the share paid by high-income individuals. you keep saying that. it is not the case. i have five boys. i am used to people saying something that is not always

true, repeating it, and hoping i will believe it. that is not the case. i will not reduce the taxes paid by high-income americans. i will not raise taxes on middle-income families. i will lower taxes for middle- income families. there are studies that looked at the studies you describe and say it is wrong. a study said you will raise taxes by $3,000 or $4,000. i want to bring down rates, lower deductions and exemptions, and so forth so we keep getting the revenue we need. small-business pays that individual rate. 54% of america's workers work in businesses that are taxed at the individual tax rate. if we lower that rate, they will be able to hire more people. this is about jobs. >> do you challenge what the

governor said about his plan? >> for 18 months he has been running on this tax plan. now, he is saying that his idea is never mind. if you are lowering the rates the way you described, it is not possible to come up with enough deductions that only affect high-income individuals to avoid raising the deficit or burdening the middle class. it is math. it is arithmetic. governor romney and i do share a deep interest in encouraging

small-business growth. while my tax plan has been lowering taxes for 98% of families, i lowered taxes for small businesses 18 times. i want to continue the tax rates we put into place for small businesses and families. for incomes over $250,000 per year, we should go back to the rate we had when bill clinton was president when we created 23 million new jobs. we created a lot of millionaires. by doing that we can not only reduce the deficit, we can not only encourage job growth through small businesses, but we can make the necessary investments in education and energy. we have a difference when it comes to definitions of small business. under my plan, 97% of small businesses will not see their income taxes go up. governor romney says those top 3% would be burdened. under governor romney's definition, there are millionaires and businesses who

are small businesses. donald trump is a small business. he does not like to think of himself as small anything. that is how you define small- business. that kind of approach will not grow our economy because the only way to pay for it without burdening the middle class or blowing up our deficit is to make drastic cuts in things like education, making sure that we are investing in basic science and research. everything that is helping america grow. that would be a mistake. >> just for the record -- we are over our first 15 minutes. we are still on the economy. we will come back to taxes. we will move on to the deficit.

>> mr. president, you are right. 97% of the businesses are not taxed at the 35% business rate. those businesses in the last 3% employ half of the people who work in small business. they have employed one quarter of all the workers of america. you plan to take their rate from 35% to 40%. i talked to a guy with four employees. he said he and his son calculated how much they pay in taxes. it added up to well over 50% of

what they earned. your plan is to take the tax rate of successful small businesses from 35% to 40%. the national federation of independent businesses says that will cost 700,000 jobs. i do not want to cost jobs. my priority is jobs. i bring down the tax rates, lower deductions and exemptions, the same ideas of bowles-simpson to create more jobs. there is nothing better toward getting us to the balanced budget than having more people working, paying more taxes. that is the most efficient way to get this budget balanced. >> you may want to move on to another topic. if you believe we can cut taxes by $5 trillion, and add $2 trillion in additional spending, that the military is not asking for, $7 trillion -- over 10 years -- that is more than our entire defense budget. you think that by closing

loopholes and deductions for the well-to-do, you will not end up picking up the tab. governor romney's plan may work for you. math, common sense, and our history shows us that is not a recipe for job growth. we have tried both approaches. the approach that governor romney is talking about is the same sales pitch that was made in 2001 and 2003. we ended up with the slowest job growth and 50 years. we ended up living from surplus to deficits. it culminated in the worst financial crisis since the great depression. bill clinton tried the approach i am talking about. we created 23 million new jobs, but from deficit to surplus, and businesses did well. in some ways we have some data

on which approach is more likely to create jobs and opportunity for americans. i believe that the economy works best when middle-class families are getting tax breaks and those of us who have done well because of this magnificent country we live in that we can afford to do more to make sure we are not blowing up the deficit. >> he gets the first word of that segment. let me make this comment. let me repeat what i said. i am not in favor of a $5 trillion tax cut. my plan is not to put in place any tax cut that will add to the deficit. that is not my plan. let's look at history. my plan is not like anything that has been tried before.

my plan is to bring down rates and credit so the revenue stays in but we bring down rates to get more people working. my priority is putting people back to work in america. they are suffering. look at the evidence of the last four years. it is extraordinary. we have 23 million people out of work or have stopped looking for work. when the president took office, 47 million were on food stamps. economic growth is slower than last year and last year's lower than the year before. going forward with the status quo will not cut it for the american people who are struggling. >> we are still on the economy. this is the second segment on the economy, specifically on what to do with the federal deficit. you each have two minutes. governor romney, you go first because the president went first on segment one. what are the differences

between the two of you as to how you would go about tackling the deficit problem in this country? >> it is a critical issue. it is not as an economic issue. it is a moral issue. it is not moral from my generation to keep spending more than we take in knowing those burdens will be passed on to the next generation and they will pay the interest and principal for the rest of their lives. the amount of debt we are adding is not moral. how do we deal with it? there are three ways that you can cut a deficit. one is to raise taxes. another is to cut spending. number three is to grow the economy. if more people work, they are paying taxes. the president would prefer raising taxes. the problem is that it slows down the rate of growth. you can never quite get the job

done. i want to lower spending and encourage economic growth. i will eliminate all programs by this test if they do not pass it. is the program so critical is it is worth borrowing china to pay for it? obamacare is on my list. i use the term with all respect. i will get rid of that. i will stop the subsidy to pbs. i like pbs. i like big bird. i cannot keep spending money to borrow from china to pay for it. i will take programs that are good programs but will be run more officially at the state level. i'll make government more efficient and cut back the number of employees and combine some agencies. my cutbacks will be done through attrition. the president said he would cut the deficit in half. he doubled it. trillion-dollar deficits for the last four years. the president has put in place

almost as much debt held by the public as all prior presidents combined. >> when i walked into the oval office i had more than a trillion dollar deficit greeting me. we know where it came from. two wars paid for on a credit card, two cuts that are not pay for, programs that were not paid for, a massive economic crisis. despite that, yes, we had to take some emergency measures to make sure we did not slip into a great depression. let's make sure we are cutting out things that are not helping us grow. 77 government programs from aircrafts that the air force ordered but were not working well. 18 government programs for

education that were well- intentioned. they're not helping kids learn. we went after medical fraud in medicare and medicaid very aggressively. it saved tens of billions of dollars. i worked with democrats and republicans to cut a trillion dollars out of our discretionary domestic budget, the largest cut in the discretionary domestic budget since dwight eisenhower. we have to do more. i put forward a $4 trillion reduction plan on a website. you can look at the numbers. what cuts we make and what revenue we raise. $2.50 for every cut we ask for a dollar of additional revenue, paid for by asking those of us who have done well in this country to contribute more to reduce the deficit. romney mentioned the bowles- simpson commission.

that is how the bipartisan commission suggested we do it -- in a balanced way with some revenue and some spending cuts. this is a major difference that governor romney and i had. you are looking for contrast. when governor romney stood on a stage with other republican candidates for the nomination, he was asked, "would you take $10 of spending cuts for just $1 of revenue?" he said no. if you take an unbalanced approach, that means you are going to be cutting our investment in schools and education. governor romney talked about medicaid and how we can send it back to the states. that means a 30% cut in the primary program we held for

seniors in nursing homes, kids with disabilities. that is not a right strategy for us to move forward. >> what about simpsons bowles? >> i have my own plans. if you want to make adjustments, make it. go to congress and fight for it. >> that is what we have done. >> you have been president for four years. he said he would cut the deficit in half. we still have trillion-dollar deficits. if you are reelected, we will get to a trillion-dollar debt. you have said you will cut the deficit in half. you find $4 trillion in cuts. we still show trillion-dollar

deficits every year. that does not get the job done. why is it that i do not want to raise taxes? i do not want to raise taxes on people. in 2010, he said he would extend the tax policies we have now and not raise taxes because when the economy is going slow like this, you should not raise taxes on anyone. the economy is still going slow. it is growing more slowly now than when he made that statement. if he believed the same thing -- the reality is it is not just wealthy people. it is not just donald trump you are taxing. it is the people that employ one-quarter of the workers that are taxed as individuals. you raise taxes and kill jobs. that is why the national

federation of independent businesses said your plan will kill 7000 jobs. >> let's stay on the tax system for a moment. to reduce the deficit there has to be revenue in addition to cuts. >> governor romney has ruled out revenue. >> the revenue i get is by more people working, getting higher pay, pay more taxes. that is how we get growth and balance the budget. the idea of taxing people more and putting people out of work -- you'll never get there. spain spends 42% of their total economy on government. we are now spending 42% of our economy on government. i want to go to the path of growth that puts americans to work with more money coming in. >> you are saying to get the job done it has to be balanced. >> if we are serious, we have to take a balanced responsible

approach. it is not just when it comes to individual taxes. let's talk about corporate taxes. i have identified areas where we can make a change that would help the economy. the oil industry gets $4 billion per year in corporate welfare. they get deductions the small businesses do not get. does anyone think exxonmobil needs extra money when they make money every time you go to the pump? why wouldn't we want to eliminate that? tax breaks for corporate jets? if you have a corporate jet, you can pay for a freight and not get a special break. when it comes to corporate taxes, governor romney has said he has wanted to in a revenue- neutral way close loopholes and deductions.

that would bring down the corporate rate. i want to do the same thing. i have actually identified how we can do that. part of the way is to not give tax breaks to companies shipping jobs overseas. you can take a deduction for moving a planned overseas. most americans would say, "that does not make sense." if we take a balanced approach, that allows us to help young people make sure they can afford to go to college. the teacher i met in las vegas, who describes to me how she has 42 kids and her class, the first two weeks, she has some of them sitting on the floor until they got reassigned. they're using textbooks that are 10 years old. that is not a recipe for growth. that is not how america was

built, but it reflects choices. we will have to make decisions. if we are asking for no revenue, that means we have to get rid of a bunch of stuff, and the magnitude of the tax cuts you're talking about would end up and severe hardship for people. it will not help us grow. when you talk about shifting medicaid to states, we are talking about a potential 30% cut. that may not seem like a big deal when it is numbers on a sheet of paper. if we are talking about a family with an autistic kid that depends on that medicaid, that is a big problem. governors are creative. they are not created enough to make up for 30% of revenue on something like medicaid. some people end up not getting help. >> we have gone on a lot of topics. >> come back to medicaid.

>> let's go through them one by one. the department of energy has said the tax break for all companies is $2.2 billion per year. in one year, you provided $90 billion in breaks to the green energy world. i like green energy. that is about 50 years' worth of what oil and gas. this $2.8 billion goes to smaller companies. if we get that tax rate down to 2%, that money is on the table. do not forget -- you put $90 billion into solar and wind solyndra and tesla. as my friend would say -- you know how to pick the losers.

this is not the kind of policy you want to have to get american energy secure. you said you get a deduction for taking plant overseas. i have been in business for 25 years. i have no idea what you are talking about. the idea you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is not the case. i would like to take the medicaid dollars to go to state and tell them they will get what they got last year plus inflation plus 1%. you will manage to care for the poor in the way you think best. as a governor, when this idea

was floated by tommy thompson, the governors said, "please, let us do that. we can care for our own poor in more effective ways than having the federal government tell us how to care for our poor." one of the magnificent things about this country is the idea that states are the laboratories of democracy. do not let the government telling states what kind of training and medicare they have to have. if the state gets in trouble, we can step in to help them. the right approach is one that relies on the brilliance of our people and states, not the federal government. >> we are still on the economy but another part of it. this is segment 3, the economy -- entitlements. the first question goes to you, mr. president. do you see a major difference

between the two of you on it? >> we have a somewhat similar position. it is socially sound. it will have to be tweaked. the basic structure is sound. i want to talk about the values behind social security and medicare. medicare is the big driver of our deficit. my grandmother helped to raise me. my grandfather died a while back. my grandmother died three days before i was elected president. she was independent. she worked her way up. she only had a high school allocation. she ended up being the vice- president of a local bank. she ended up living along by choice. she could be independent because of social security and medicare.

she worked all of her life, and understood there was basic floor under which she could not go. the name "entitlements" implies some sense of dependency on the part of these people. these are people who have worked hard. my approach is to say how do we strengthen the system of the long term? in medicare, what we did was we said we are going to have to bring down the costs if we are going to deal with our long- term deficits. to do that, let's look at where some of the money is going. $716 billion we were able to save by no longer overpaying insurance companies and making sure we are not overpaying

providers and using that money we were able to lower prescription drug costs by an average of $600. we were able to make a significant dent in providing them the kind of preventive care that will save money throughout the system. the way for us to deal with medicare is to lower health-care costs. when it comes to social security, you do not need a major structural change to make sure it is there for the future. >> we will follow up on this. you have two minutes on social security and entitlements. >> our seniors depend on these programs. any time we talk about entitlements, people become concerned. neither the president nor i are proposing any changes for any current retirees or near- retirees either to social to carry or medicare. if you are 60 or older, you do not need to listen any further. for younger people, we need to talk about what changes will occur. when i said the president is not proposing changes, he is for medicare. for medicare, for current retirees, he is cutting. everyone will get a lower rate

is not just going after places where there is abuse. that is saying we are cutting the rates. hospitals and nursing homes say they will not take any medicare patients. 50% of doctors say they will not take more medicare patients. we have 4 million people on medicare advantage that will lose medicare advantage because of those $716 billion in cuts. how can you cut medicare for some of the 16 billion career recipients? better you'll get a prescription program. they know that is not a good trade. i want to take that money you have cut and put it back into medicare. we can include a prescription program. the idea of cutting $716 billion from medicare to balance the

additional cost of obamacare is a mistake. with regards to young people, i have proposals to make sure medicare and social security are there for them. >> it is important for governor romney to present this plan that will only affect people in the future. it will turn medicare into a voucher program. it is called premium support. it is understood to be a voucher program. >> you do not support that? >> i do not. >> that is for future people. >> if you are 54 years old, you may want to listen. this will affect you. the idea was originally presented by congressman ryan, your running mate. we would get a voucher to

seniors. they could go out in the private marketplace and buy their own health insurance. the problem is that because the voucher would not necessarily keep up with health-care inflation, this would cost the average senior about $16,000 per year, but governor romney has said is he will maintain traditional medicare alongside it. there is still a problem. those insurance companies are clever about figuring out who are the younger and healthier seniors.

they recruit them, leaving the older, sicker seniors in medicare. every health-care economist as said overtime, the traditional medicare system will collapse. you have people, like my grandmother, at the mercy of the private insurance system when they are most in need of decent health care. i do not think vouchers are the right way to go. this is not only my opinion. aarp thinks the savings we obtained from medicare bolstered the system, lengthened the medicare trust fund by eight years. benefits were not affected. if you repeal obamacare, those seniors will pay $600 more in prescriptions. there will have to pay co-pays. the primary beneficiary of that repeal our insurance companies that are estimated to gain billions of dollars back when they are not making seniors healthier. that is not the right approach when it comes to making sure that medicare is stronger over the long term. >> we will talk about health care in a moment. do you support the voucher

system, governor? >> i support no change for current retirees and near- retirees to medicare. the president supports taking money out of that program. for people coming along that are young, i would allow them to choose the current medicare program or the private plan. it is their choice. they will have at least two plans that will be at no cost to them. they do not have to pay additional money. they will have at least two plans. if the government can be as efficient as the private sector and offer lower premiums, people will be happy to get traditional medicare or a private plan. i would rather have a private

plan. i would not like the government to tell me what kind of health care i would get. people make their own choice. to save medicare, we have to have the benefits high for those that are low income. for higher income people, we will have to lower the benefits. make sure the benefit is there for the long term. the idea came not from paul ryan, but from the co-author of the bill in the senate. it came from bill clinton's chief of staff. this says let's see if we can get competition into the medicare world so people can get the choice of different plans at lower cost, better policy is a quality. i believe in competition. >> every study has shown matters here -- medicare has the word administrative cost. this is why seniors are generally happy with it.

private insurers have to make a profit. that is what they do. you have higher administrative costs plus profit on top of that. if you were going to save any money to what governor romney is proposing, what has to happen is that the money has to come from somewhere. when you move to a voucher system, you are putting seniors at the mercy of those insurance companies. over time, if traditional medicare has decayed, they are stuck. this is why aarp has said your plan would begin medicare substantially. that is why they were supportive of the approach we took. we do have to lower the cost of health care. >> we will talk about that in a minute. >> overall. >> that is a big topic. >> let's get back to medicare. if that is the case, it will

always be the best part people can purchase. the private sector is typically able to provide a better product at a lower cost. >> can you agree that voters have a choice on medicare and? >> absolutely. >> to finish on the economy, what is your view about the level of federal regulation of the economy right now? is there too much? mr. president, should there be more? this is a two-minute segment to start. >> regulation is essential. you cannot have a free market work if you do not have regulation. i need to know the regulations. you cannot have people opening of things in their garage and

making loans. you have to have regulations for an economy to work. regulation can become excessive. >> is it excessive now? where? >> in some places, with some of the legislation passed during the president's term, it has become excessive. it has hurt the economy. for example, dodd-frank designates banks too big to fail. this is an enormous boom for new york banks. there have been 122 community and small banks have close since dodd-frank. >> you want to repeal dodd- frank? >> i would repel and replace it. there are some parts that make all of the sense in the world. in a transparency, the average

leverage limits. >> let's let him respond to this specific one -- dodd-frank. >> the reason we have been in such an enormous economic crisis was prompted by a reckless behavior across the board. it was not just on wall street. you had loan officers giving loans and mortgages that should not have been given because the people did not qualify. people were borrowing money to buy houses they cannot afford.

credit agencies were stamping these as a1 grade investments. you have banks making money, turning out products that the bankers and not understand. an order to make big profits, knowing that it made the system vulnerable. what did we do? we stepped in. we have the toughest reforms on wall street since the 1930's. banks have to raise their capital requirements. do not engage in risky behavior. make sure you have a living will so we can know how you will wind things down and make a bad bet so you do not have other taxpayer bailouts. we made sure all of the help we provided the banks was paid back with interest. governor romney has said he

wants to repeal dodd-frank. i appreciate it. we have agreement that a market place to work has to have regulation. he said he had wanted to repeal dodd-frank. does anyone think the big problem we had is that there was too much oversight and regulation of wall street? if you do, governor romney is your candidate. that is not what i believe. >> that is not the facts. we have to have regulation on wall street. i would not designate five banks as too big to fail and give them a blank check. that is one of the unintended consequences of dodd-frank. we need to get rid of that provision. regional and small banks are getting hurt. you say we were giving mortgages to people who were not qualified. that is one of the reasons for the great financial calamity. dodd-frank says we need to have qualified mortgages or there are big penalties.

they never defined what a qualified mortgage is. it has been two years. we do not know what a qualified mortgage is. banks are reluctant to give loans. it did not anticipate putting in place the kinds of regulations you have to have. sometimes they did not come off with clear regulation. i had to make sure that we do not hurt the functioning of our marketplace. i want to bring back housing and get good jobs. >> we have another clear difference between the two of you. let's move to health care, where there is a clear difference. that has to do with the affordable care act, or obamacare. it is a two-minute segment. two minutes each. governor romney, you want it repealed. why? >> it comes to my experience. i was in new hampshire. a woman said, "i cannot afford

insurance or myself or my son." i met a couple in wisconsin who said we are thinking about dropping their insurance. small businesses are dropping insurance because they cannot afford it. the cost is prohibitive. we have to deal with cost. when you look at obamacare, the congressional budget office has said it will cost $2,500 per year more than traditional insurance. it is adding to costs. when the present ran for office, he said by this year he would have brought down the cost of insurance per family. it has gone up. it is expensive. expensive things hurt families. it cut $716 billion from medicare to pay for it. i want to put that money back into medicare. it put in place an unelected board that will tell people what kind of treatments they will have. i do not like that. there was a survey done of small businesses done.

it said, what has been the effect of obamacare and you're hiring plans? three-quarters said it makes them less likely to hire. i do not know how the president can come into office facing 23 million out of work, rising unemployment, and economic crisis and spend his energy fighting for obamacare instead of jobs for the american people. it has killed jobs. the best course for health care is to do what we did in my state -- craft a plan at the state level that fits the needs of the states. then focus on cost down for people. rather than raising it. >> the argument against repeal. >> four years ago, i was

traveling around and having the same conversations. it was not just that small businesses were having costs skyrocket, and they could not get affordable coverage or that this was the biggest driver of our federal deficit, it was families who were worried about going bankrupt if they got sick. millions of families. they had a pre-existing condition. they may not be able to get coverage. if they did have coverage, insurance companies may impose an arbitrary limit. they are paying their premiums. someone gets sick. they do not have enough money to pay the bills because the insurance companies said they have hit the limit. we did work on this alongside working on jobs. this is part of making sure that middle-class families are secure. let me tell you what obamacare did -- if you have health

insurance, it does not mean a government takeover. you keep your own insurance and your doctor. insurance companies cannot church your round. they cannot impose arbitrary lifetime limits. they have to let you keep your kid on your insurance plan until they're 26 years old. it says that he will have to get a rebate if insurance companies are spending more on administrative costs and profits than they are with actual care. if you do not have health insurance, we are setting up a group plan that allows you to benefit from group rates that are 18% lower than if you are

trying to get insurance on the individual markets. the last point out would make -- i had five seconds before you interrupted. [laughter] we have seen this model work well in massachusetts. a romney did a good thing, working with democrats in the state set up a sense of an identical model and, as a consequence, people are covered and it has not destroy jobs. as a consequence, we have a system where we have the opportunity to bring down costs. >> your 5 seconds went away a long time ago. governor, tell the president directly why you think what he just said was wrong. >> please elaborate. >> i like the fact that in my

states we had republicans and democrats coming together. instead you push through a plan without a single republican vote. when massachusetts elected a republican senator, to stop obama care, you pushed it through anyway. instead of bringing america together and having a discussion on this important topic, you push through something that you thought was the best answer and drove it through. what we did in the legislature, we worked together. only two voted against a plan by the time we were finished. what were the differences? we did not raise taxes. you raise them by $1 trillion. we did not cut medicare by $716 billion, of course we do not have medicare. we also did not do something that i think the number of people across this country

recognize, put people in a position where they might lose the insurance that they had and they wanted. up to 20 million people will lose their insurance as obama care goes into effect next year. 30% of the businesses are anticipating dropping people from coverage. for those reasons, for people losing their insurance, this is why the american people do not want obama care. this is why the republicans said not to do this. republicans put out a bipartisan plan that was swept aside. something this big, this important, has to be done on a bipartisan basis and we need a president they can reach across the aisle to fashion important legislation with input from both parties. >> gov. romney says this has to be done on a bipartisan basis. this was a republican idea. gov. romney at the beginning of the debate said, what we did in massachusetts could be a model for the nation.

i agree the democratic legislators and massachusetts might have given advice to republicans in congress on how to cooperate. we use the same advisers, and they say it is the same plan. when the gov. romney talked about this a board for example, this unelected board that was created, this is a group of health care experts, doctors, to figure out how we can reduce the cost of care in the system over all. there are two ways of dealing with the health care crisis. one is to simply leave a whole lot of people uninsured and let them fend for themselves. let businesses figure out how long the bacon accept premiums until they just give up. we can figure out how we can make the cost of care more

effective. there are ways of doing it. at a cleveland clinic, one of the best health care systems in the world, they actually provide great care cheaper than average. the reason they do is because they do some smart things. they say if a patient is coming in, let's get all the doctors together at once into one test instead of having the patient run around with 10 tests. let's make sure we are providing preventive care so we are catching the onset of something like diabetes. let's pay providers on the basis of performance as opposed to on the basis of how many procedures they engage in. what this board does is basically identify best practices. let's use the purchasing power of medicare and medicaid to help institutionalize all of the good things that we do. the fact of the matter is that

when obamacare is fully implemented, we are going to be in a position to show that costs are going down. over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up -- it is true -- but they have gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years. we are already seeing progress. people out there with insurance are already getting a rebate. governor mitt romney says we should replace it. we can replace it with something. he has not describe what exactly we would replace it with other than saying we will leave it to the states. the fact of the matter is, some of the prescriptions he has offered like letting me by insurance across state lines, there is no indication that will help somebody who has a pre- existing condition to be able to finally buy insurance. it is estimated that by repealing obamacare you are looking at 50 million people losing health insurance at a

time it is vitally important. >> let's let the governor explain what you would do if obamacare is repealed. >> pre-existing conditions are covered under my plan. young people are able to stay on their family plan. that is already offered in the private marketplace. you do not need the government -- government to mandate that. the key task we have in health care is to get the cost down so it is more affordable for families. he has a model for doing that, an unelected board who will decide what kind of treatment you ought to have a. in my opinion, the government is not effective in bringing down the cost of almost anything. as a matter of fact, free people and free enterprise is try to find a way to do things together are more effective at

bringing down the cost that the government ever will be. your example of the cleveland clinic is exactly my point. this is the private market. these are enterprises competing with each other and learning how to do better jobs. i used to consult to hospitals and health-care providers. i was astonished at the creativity and innovation that exists in the american people. in order to bring the cost of health care down, we do not need a board of the 15 people telling us what kind of treatments we should have. we should have insurance plans, hospitals, doctors on targets so that they have an incentive, performance pay for doing an excellent job for keeping costs down. that is happening. mayo clinic is doing it.

the cleveland clinic and others. the right answer is not to have the federal government take over health care and start mandating to the providers across america telling a patient and a doctor what kind of treatment they can have. that is the wrong way to go. the private market and individual responsibility always works best. >> let me point out first of all this board we are talking about cannot make decisions about what treatments are given here that is explicitly prohibited in the lot. let's go back to what gov. romney indicated. under his plan, he would be able to cover people with pre- existing conditions. actually governor, that is not what your plan does. your plan duplicates what is already the law. if you are on health insurance for three months, then you can end up getting continuous coverage. insurance company cannot deny

you if it has been under 90 days. that is already the law. that does not help millions of people out there with pre- existing conditions. there is a reason why governor mitt romney said of the plan he did in the massachusetts. it was the largest expansion of private insurance. what it does say is insurers -- you have to take everybody. that also means -- when gov. romney says he will replace it with something but cannot detail how it will be replaced -- and the reason he said of the system he did in massachusetts is because there is not a better way of dealing with pre-existing conditions. it just reminds me -- he says he will close deductions and loopholes for his tax plan. we do not know the details. he says that he is going to replace dodd-frank, wall street reform, but we do not know

exactly which ones. he will not tell us. he now says he will replace obamacare and insurer as all the good things and it will be in there and you do not have to worry. at some point the american people have to ask themselves, is the reason gov. romney is keeping all of these plans to replace secret because they are too good? is it because somehow middle- class families will benefit too much from them? the reason is because when we reform wall street, when we tackle the problem of pre- existing conditions, these are tough problems and we have to make choices. the choices we have made have been ones that ultimately benefited middle class families. >> i have to respond to that. my experience as a governor is that if i come in and lay down a piece of legislation and say it is my way or the highway, i do not get a lot done. what i do is the same way that tip o'neill and ronald reagan work together years ago. he laid out the principles that he was going to foster. he said he would lower tax

rates. he said he was going to broaden the base. you said the same thing. those are my principles. i want to bring down the tax burden on middle income families. i will work together with congress to say what are the various ways we can bring down deductions. one way will be to have a single number. make up a number -- $50,000. anybody can have deductions up to that amount. that number disappears for high income people. one could follow bowles simspn as a model. there are other ways to accomplish the objective that i have it. simplify the code, broaden the base, and create incentives for growth. with regards to health care, you obviously studied up on my plan. in fact, i do have a plan that deals with people with pre- existing conditions. what we did in massachusetts is