when i became a congressman, i had options in the health-care program that i wanted to have. i chose blue cross-blue shield, and i am paying for that. it is also index toward income. if you are a high-wage earner, you will not get the same amount of money as a lower-wage earner. in a long run we are talking about is exactly what everyone is saying, fairness, those that are higher-wage earners not getting the same as others, and we also look -- ought to look at raising the cap on social security, the age from 65. very good proposals that we could look at incorporating. >> under the ryan plan, which covers the west voted for, we end medicare as we know it. >> the more you say it does not make it true. >> i talk to seniors every day,

they are worried, and i see the fear in their eyes. we need to continue to find ways to make these programs more efficient. i believe when you give it to the private sector, there is a profit incentive there. how can they be as competitive? >> you did not believe in a profit incentive? >> not for small businesses, but when it comes to medicare, they deserve the best treatment, not somebody spinning off a profit incentive and salaries. when you compare medicare to private insurance companies, their costs are way lower. what we have is working, but we need to make it more efficient. >> a brief follow, who can make it more efficient, private? >> that is part of free markets. that is what made this country what it is. when you talk about seniors been afraid, one of the main

reasons they are afraid is because of their doctors dropping them off of medicare coverage because reimbursable rates are getting cut and cut and cut. that is a big concern for our seniors. >> it is about beneficiaries, those waiting for these treatments. the conversation should be focused on how we can look forward and improve. i would like to allow all government to begin negotiating with large pharmaceutical companies, like the v.a. does with much success. we also need to work to a method of pay for performance, not just individual treatment. when it comes to health care, it is all about cost, and it is rising and an unsustainable rate. >> all of this begs the question, how do we afford this, and it goes back to the

deficit question. outline your views on abortion, gay rights. mr. murphy, you first. >> i support the woman's right to choose. this is an area where we are on to the wall opposite to me tells of the spectrum -- around two opposite sides of the spectrum. covers the west voted to defund preventative treatment for women, things like mammogram, sponsored the controversial bill to redefine rape and voted for the personhood amendment that would make all abortion is legal even in the case of rape or incest. i do not support that. when it comes to marriage equality, i am there. i support marriage equality. >> i've been married for 23 years, and had two years -- to -- two daughters. we do not support abortion. i do not support partial birth

abortion, and i do not support president obama supports, a filed surviving abortion will still be killed. when we talk about planned parenthood, and don't let to throw this out, it is a $1 billion not-for-profit company that has been making a profit. i think that could go to a better place. one place i think it should go to is helping us with the comprehensive everglades restoration project, helping to make sure our waterways and water quality is clean. >> 30-second response. >> sure. planned parenthood treats all sorts of women, women in need that need these treatments. i will not take away the funding for these treatments. it is interesting how use of environmental issues, when you

voted to allow oil drilling in the everglades. that could not be more out of touch. a big part of this district is the environment, and so much of our economy is based on our environment. there is a direct correlation, whether it is tour is a more realistic. >> presidential candidate michele bachmann came down here and floated that idea and i was all over her on a -- like a black eye on a pea. when you look at what has happened with planned parenthood, perhaps you should call kathleen sebelius, to whom the agency came out with saint planned parenthood is not doing mammograms. >> both of you have spent a lot of money. it is among the costliest congressional races in the country to support legislation

that would limit the influence of outside groups, and is that necessary? >> that needs to be argued in front of the supreme court. the supreme court already made that decision. if you look at our record, we have an incredible amount, almost 95% from individual donors. i cannot help but that people want to donate. if outside groups, some have placed $5 million in attacks against me. so be it at my opponent's father created pack specifically. i do not have a gold tooth, as you can see, and i do not like punching women. i think that needs to be argued in front of the supreme court. >> absolutely, we need major content -- campaign finance reform. coming from the private sector,

see what is happening because of money, it is absolutely " gross, and i am completely against. it starts with the citizens united. covers the west has a super pacs supporting him. there is a $1 million to protect supporting congressman west. the person behind the super pac is a pharmaceutical drug company owner. you wonder why the congressman might not want the government to negotiate from a cyclical companies, aided about your priorities and where the money is coming from. >> let me say this, look where president obama was negotiating with pharmaceutical companies with the affordable care act. >> if you overturned services unit, which with the shape be, and what legislation a constitutional amendment would you support? >> to completely overturned -- overturned citizens united. i think it is gross what is

happening. that individuals and corporations can give that much money, that is not what this country is about. >> it should be argued in the supreme court, and the thing we should take up in the legislature. there are more important topics to focus on. >> a quick question, simple answer. do you apologize for the nastiness of your campaign ads, and then you look him in the high end to the same. >> i do not know about the nastiness he is talking about. nobody said anything about the social security number being put out. >> do you apologize? >> i talk to people every day, and they're tired of the negativity. >> to you apologize to him? >> all of our eds are accurate -- ads are at the -- accurate.

>> on that non-apology from both sides, we will go to closing statements. first, congressman west. >> i am proud of the record we have established in washington, d.c. my opponent talks about extremism. when i left the declaration of independence, our country was established and limited government, fiscal responsibility, individual sovereignty, a vibrant free market and strong national defense. that is been the essence of what i've done. i am upset that we did not get a chance to talk about foreign policy and national security that is very threatening. we talked about which we did not talk about how to improve our military and take care of our veterans, but that is my commitment to the country that i have had in 20 digit for 22 years in uniform, and a commitment not -- i have had

for 22 years in uniform, and a commitment that i take seriously. >> thank you representative that is more focused on job creation, not headlines. my background is exactly what we need to put our country back on track. i will focus on protecting the promise to our seniors and strengthening the pillars of middle-class, including medicare and medicaid, and not constantly demonizing them. my opponent called 80 members of congress communists, voted to end medicare as we know it, voted to eliminate 10 million pell grants and supported legislation that would take away the woman's right to choose. "the palm beach post" even said he is everything that is wrong with congress. i'm a former republican. i was tired of the extremism. i'm a moderate and believe i

have the background to get our country on track. we need to work together. >> patrick murphy, congressman alan west, thank you for being here. george, jonathan, thank you, and most of all, thank you. congressman west brought up an interesting point. we could only begin to scratch the surface in this hour-long debate and we know that monday will be a huge foreign policy only debate, and largely we suspect they largely support their respective candidates, president barack obama and mitt romney. they will cover the ground, so we elected to move on. and on behalf of everyone here at wptv news channel 5, wishing you the very best. >> would you support military

action in iraq? >> if need be, yes if sanctions don't work and if they are close to and about the have the ability to develop a nuclear bomb. we use every option impossible as well israel. that would be the last auction, but we would have it ready. >> i think we stand with israel and don't let them develop a nuclear weapon. >> under what conditions? >> i can't tell you what that would be, but we better exhaust everything else. if that is what is needed, i am still serving. i will be the first -- that we will have a honest discussion about what is needed. >> follow the senate and governor races in c-span 2012.

>> tonight, we will have several debates starting live at 7:00 eastern. we take you to ohio for the final debate. at 8:00, the incumbent iowa congressman and democrat face off. and 9:00, martin heinrich squares off against heather wilson. that starts 7:00 eastern. >> with people still talking about the presidential debates, the student video documentary competitions send a message to the president. tell us what is the most important issue the president should consider in 2013 for your chance to win a grand prize of $5,000.

it is open to students grades 6- 12. >> president obama held a campaign rally today in richmond va.. he spoke about the senate candidate richard murdock's comments. >> i think we have seen again this week, i don't think any male politician should be making health-care decisions for women. think your boss or your insurance company should be making those decisions for you either. i believe that women are capable and should make their own health care decisions for themselves. that is why the health care law we passed but the choices in

your hands, where they belong. that is where they will stay of i am president of the united states of america. >> today in richmond, just over an hour from now. a prayer service for the former democratic senator george mcgovern is being held in south dakota later today. he died last weekend at the age of 90. we will have a prayer service, and tomorrow, the funeral service will begin in the afternoon. the group of political analysts spoke this morning in washington. if they agreed ohio is a must- win state for both presidential candidates. they also talked about a recent swing state polling.

>> on behalf of my colleagues, i'd like to welcome all of you and our c-span viewers to this, the final pre-election section of the aei election watch program. we will be back on november 8 for a session where we will be examining the exit polls and trying to tell you what happened and why. in 12 days, 279 hours, voters will start casting their election day ballots. if tradition holds, voters in new hampshire, population 11, will gather at midnight to announce to the world who won their hamlet. the exit poll consortium of the five networks and associated press will fan out across the country, handing out a single

page ballot that will be used to explain the results after the polls have closed. for the 26 that have been tracking the contest nationally in recent months and the six that have been doing daily tracking, the contest will finally be over. americans have done a lot of complaining in the last few months. we heard the campaign is too long, too expensive, too negative. i think it is important to remember that november 6 will be the fifty seventh time in an unbroken succession stretching back to george washington that americans have freely chosen their chief executive. if power shift from democrats to republicans, it will be the twenty second time that power has shifted from one partisan philosophy to what other. shots were fired in 1860 after

that election and there were weeks over the contested vote in the 2000 election. i think that as a record that all of us can be very proud. i want to say a word or two about the latest issue of our political report. this will be posted on the web site, www.aei.org. it is a compilation of some of the things we don't think you have seen about the election. we take a look at the exit polls from past elections to see when voters made up their minds. we are looking at the late this eiders of this particular point in the campaign. and we look at 22 groups, how they voted, and the exit polls since 1972. i don't think there is a collection like this anywhere in washington. for those of you tired of the

polls, we have some unconventional indicators. last night, president obama said that he slightly favored the detroit lions, but the indicators show that if they win the election is romney's. if the giants win, obama is favored. the redskins will play the panthers, and redskins are slightly favored. if they win, the incumbent is likely to win. on tuesday's washington post poll, romney and obama were separated by .07%. i don't think i have seen anything that close. henry will take a look at ohio, the state that we are all watching, and we will look at

the gubernatorial and house races. >> this has been an exciting election season. i think we all pretty much agree that we have something of a sea change or a significant change in this election after the october 3 debate between barack obama and governor romney. it seemed to transform the race. obama was narrowly ahead and it looks like romney is narrowly ahead. one respondent of 1000 people there, one mormore for romney over obama. he is ahead in recent polls, but not by a wide margin. some people have said that the

debate hinge on style. what it did was bring back the basic fundamentals of this election, working for president obama is the sense that most americans want to think well of their president and in his case, they feel that it would be a bad thing for america to be seen rejecting the first black president. working for governor romney is the idea that most people have not favored his signature programs and they are disappointed with the sluggish growth in the economy. we have a more fluid like to read that we have been 2004, a comparison that is often made. back then, all the 7% of voters were changeable. there was a poll where we looked at the number of people that said they were clearly for one candidate or the other, 42-41. that suggests that 17% are

changeable, roughly double the magnitude of 2004. we have seen a shift in the polling numbers and a list of target states. the easy way to predict the results was to take the 2000 results and add two points for each day and you would not be far off anywhere. we have seen the target list change, wisconsin was an obama state in 2000, and it is now clearly in contention. as well as other states that were heavily obama are not clearly in contention. one of the things that happened with the debate was that frustrated the obama firewall strategy. they spent something like half of their pre convention money on ads in three states, the three states aside from indiana

and north carolina which were the weakest states. florida, ohio, virginia. basically, with those dates, they would have 332 electoral votes. they could lose a couple other states and be well ahead of 270. obama has fallen behind in florida, virginia is even, he remains about two points ahead in ohio which henry will talk about. i think that firewall strategy means that this election was very much in play, and the obama campaign that governor romney only had a very narrow window is no longer correct. election watchers last spring and in washington examiner column, i explore couple ternate of scenarios to the 2004

election. at least one of them, perhaps too, are happening now. the one that seems to be happening is affluent suburbanites moving toward governor romney. not southern states have been trending democratic over the last 20 years on cultural issues and other factors. romney in 2008, obama carried the 75,000 groupon by 50-49. we are seeing it go for romney by a statistically significant margins. it is the only explanation why i can see those that are cast in affluent suburban counties are getting close and perhaps why ohio is still slightly, it would appear, towards obama.

the other scenario that is possible but not necessarily likely was the 1980 late swing toward the -- away from the incumbent, toward the challenger. that happened after an october 27 debate just one week before the election. we sought a very big swing away from jimmy carter into words ronald reagan. this year, i think we are seeing what might be necessarily a slow-motion 1980 home with the october 3 debate obviously changing some opinion and leaving the question over whether or not there'll be further movement in governor romney's direction. >> you were only five minutes, i

am very impressed. henry is going to talk about ohio. we have been watching for a long time and want to refer you to a book written by our colleague in 1970. they wrote a book called the real majority and they identified the key to the election was the dayton housewife. the middle of the country, a 47- year-old catholic married to a machinist that would be the key to electoral politics. she became so famous that dick cavett sent a team of producers to try to find that housewives. after that, she appeared in announcing about the election. she had a cigarette and it was really quite an experience. we have been watching ohio for a long time and you can tell us if it will be the housewife from

cincinnati or columbus. what are we looking at? >> it will be the columbus separated woman with one child. that is more likely. it seems like we are at the end of a long-running popular tv show like years. in a couple of weeks, the favorite characters will only be gone. but we can always come back here and say, norm! [laughter] ohio is the most pivotal state because, not only is it the closest large state that is out there that romney needs tow in, -- to win, but it is virtually impossible to see him win

without it. the other battlegrounds like virginia, north carolina, florida. he needs to take ohio and what other swing state or he needs this week three or four of the other swing states. what i did to help decipher it was to put together a list of media markets and superimpose it on the map with my research assistant. what we have here, each of these candidates are going to be traveling in doing it with the media and mind. and when somebody goes to an area that is covered dramatically on local news, they get a lot of free publicity in that area. where a candidate visits and what a candidate is talking about is actually a series of

subtle cues about what their strategy is and who they see as their path to victory. as you can see, the democratic strength in urban areas, the city of columbus, cincinnati, the southwest part of the state. the three blue counties, that's coal country area. appalachian influence. athens county near the market is the home of ohio university. and you have the industrial area of leary -- lake eerie. the blue dots show were the democrats have visited. you concede that they have been employing in early voting strategy. each place that they have

visited is a place that has a significant african-american inner-city population. currently, if you look at the early voting totals. three visits in cleveland, one in lorraine that has a small industrial community down the road. one in canton, a small african american community. barack obama has visited ohio university. the one dot is bill clinton. they sent the big dog to the area where everyone had the votes will be culturally like him.

there is one shot that does not fit into that, two counties north of columbus. joe biden was an ohio -- in marion, ohio. he was not there to pay homage to warren harding or norman thomas. he was there because they are starting to move from an early voting to a swing voting strategy. ohio and early voting next tuesday. they're going to preserve the gains that they made in the republican counties of ohio. that is where the battleground is going to be fought for the next 12 days. it was announced bill clinton and barack obama will appear together on stage for the first time in a number of swing states. i am going to guess that they are not going to be visiting

inner-city is not very much. -- inner-cities very much. george bush carried ohio with about 50.5% of the vote in 2004. if you look at where the difference is, romney wins by equaling bush's percentage. it dropped most in three media markets. toledo, columbus, cincinnati. those are three places where he needs to pick up ground where he lost. the second thing he needs to do is to stay in the ground that they kept. the youngstown media market, mccain ran virtually even with bush. the rural areas to sustain and

try to get their vote back, to try to keep the vote. romney will stop in cincinnati, he will stop in worthington which is a suburb of columbus. he goes home to one of the northwest red counties in the toledo market which is the county that has one of the highest proportions of autoworkers as a percentage of total employment. and perhaps, was one of the places that saw one of the largest drops from bush to mccain. this will be the republican strategy, going back to places of people that voted for george bush in 2004, people that voted for barack obama in 2008 and convince them it is time to come back. what do i think is going to

happen? all the polls suggest that this is one of his toughest states. as michael pointed out, it is less hot number of other states. the affluent counties are less affluent that affluent counties elsewhere. there are polls in ohio and in wisconsin and iowa that ron brown has written about that suggest that as i feared, six months ago, the blue-collar white vote that needs to be turned out overwhelmingly to win is actually not doing that. all three of these midwestern states, they are not responding to the romney message. that would be consistent with the idea that the choice between a populist incumbent with a so- a businessd and a

executive that is out of touch with working-class aspirations, and neither of them will -- either they will stay home or support the president for a narrow victory. by a very small margin, ohio continues to have a higher percentage of undecided voters. it is about 6.5% compared to about 4.5%. there are still people that have not made up their mind and it suggested that if romney can cut the gap to one point, he can eek a way out on top. data suggest that those people will break 60-40. it looks like a tough road for romney-ryan.

incompetent strategy has been executed by the president. >> most people said, it looks like a pretty good year for the republicans, but things have clearly changed. can you tell us about the said act and the governors' races? -- senate and governors races? you all should have a handout from the people that we work with on a regular basis. they're watching this race very closely. norm? >> i would say to start, it will tell you a lot about our culture that we have gone from the arbiter of being the dayton housewife to honey boo boo. i arrived yesterday from the west coast where it was 82 and foggy, just like clint eastwood. i want to thank him for cutting a commercial yesterday to keep

the half-life of bad joke going for another week or 10 days. there is a lot we can say about the contests, but just to start with the senate. it with 23 seats held by democrats and only 10 held by republicans, looking at it from the perspective of one year or six months ago, it appeared that one or two of those seats would be vulnerable to challenge and half or more of democratic seats would, there is a possibility that republicans can'n contest r a majority of the senate. the number of seats needed to change depends on who wins the white house. if mitt romney wins, republicans need a net of three. if obama wins, it's four.

the vice-president casts the thai-breaking vote. -- tie-breaking vote. if you look at the seats up for a contest, there are at least five where you are either in the tossup category or where republicans are likely to lose. the likely to lose category starts with names where the independent former governor seems to have pulled into a comfortable lead. king has refused to announce if he will caucus with either party. since the republican party adopted a strategy of attacking him and trying to push up the democratic candidate to make a three-way contest, they probably ensured if there were any doubt before, that he would caucus with the democrats.

and we have states like indiana where just as with a few contests in 2010, primaries have taken out a sure winner and turned it into a very different kind of contest. this morning, my guess is that richard murdock's offices are being flooded with deliveries of flowers, saying keeping up, from the obama campaign. since his statement yesterday, which got into a contest over who could save the more inflammatory thing about re and abortion, all of it coming wi badly timed after a commercial where mitt romney endorses richard murdoch, saying he wants him part of his team.

i will note that may have a very small impact on the presidential campaign. if you have a couple of days or where romney made the most striking at a sketch move by have ever seen from very conservative to a moderate position. the campaign theme is, don't worry, you can trust us. this is not exactly reinforce that message. a couple of days where you have to focus on other things. that is something spilling over into other senate contests where candidates are forced to get distance from murdoch or embrace what he said. if you look at the statement made by the head of the republican senatorial campaign committee, it is a very get intoable i can't

this at all. if you throw in states like massachusetts where elisabeth seems to have pulled out to a small and statistically significant but still not insurmountable lead in arizona, where jeff had to go through a very late primary in which he was roundly criticized within his own party, and richard making a joke about candy crowley at an inopportune moment, and in nevada where the superior turnout effort has kept shelley berkeley within striking distance. you have a different kind of contest. democrats are not likely to win all five of those contests, but

everyone that they win means that republicans have to win an extra seat to move closer to that majority. we have one sure thing out there in terms of the turnover, that is nebraska for the democratic hopeful and former senator will be whomped by republican deb fisher. in other states where republicans thought they would have a wide-open opportunity to take seats, in wisconsin where tommy thompson has not run a very effective campaign and is it a tossup contest in florida where coty proved to be a pretty poor candidate against bill nelson. in michigan, they have not done anything close to closing the sale. they're not in as strong a position as they might have been.

there are still plenty of opportunities, and that includes places like montana where it has been a dead heat for months on end. other states like north dakota, we have a close contest as well. the odds of republicans taking be set at, unless it turns out to be a scenario where the floodgates opened over the next 10 days, i still believe it looks more like 2004 to me that it does like 1980. the odds of republicans winning the set that are fairly slim. they are still greater than the democrats taking the house of representatives. it will probably lose have their own seats, most of the moderates. so they would mean 35 or more to take a majority in the house. it is simply not billable.

-- doable. there are opportunities there and i won't be surprised if they eat into the majority, but if it is more than single digits, that would be a really striking achievement. it will probably be more between seven and nine seats. a few other gubernatorial contests that are interesting to look at, most of them not particularly interesting. i found a striking that mike that appears to be coasting to victory at indiana, went out of his way to get distance from richard murdock yesterday, which i can quite figure it out. the most interesting contest to me as in new hampshire, where the perennial candidate, of sorts, is that even in terms of the gubernatorial contest. he was an assistant of my many

years ago. in other places where democrats hope to do well, they are not. and in washington or missouri where democrats thought they would be in deep trouble, they're probably favored a little bit. there is not much going on at the gubernatorial this time is because the big contest were the midterm election last time and that is what will be interesting to watch in two years. there is a backlash from many governors, many of whom remain quite unpopular. but that is something for another day. >> because the panelists have been disciplined, we have half an hour for your questions. i would like to say thank-you to andrew, our research assistant that is my co-pilot on the

political report, jennifer that helped with the end of today and a great deal of work for norm. and our two able interns, patrick and elizabeth that provided a lot of help at the last minute. michael would like to say a word in response to norm. >> both henry and norm. on the importance of ohio, some people say it is totally does positive towards the election -- dispositive towards the election. within two points of states, obama is five points ahead eor even, similar numbers.

he's ahead i more states with more electoral votes. romney very much wants to win ohio, but that thought was forged during a time when all hell had more electoral votes than florida. it is now ohio 18 and florida 29. it is important, but not totally essential. in the senate races, i agree with the total of luck. the republicans are in trouble in arizona and indiana. on the other hand, it is a possibility. i remember sitting down with peter before the 1980 election and they will go through an

exercise to see if the republicans can win a majority in the senate starting off with 41 seats. we went out a list and we basically came to the conclusion that republicans would have to win all of the close races. it is not going to happen. when i looked at the races, i see seven states in which democrats are leading with under 50% in polling. that says to me that those are not necessarily lock can - -lic -- locked-in seats. pennsylvania, virginia, wisconsin. i think with a strong romney run, the possibilities of republicans winning majority in the said that -- senate are not

dismal. they depend on running those seven races at a turning those under 50% democrats into losers. >> i have a couple comments as well i have more respect, these days, forced to spencer than i did before. he runs romney's campaign. they did a whole season of letting him be defined elsewhere. if you look at -- not watching the third debate as he endorsed the international criminal court, i was waiting for the explosion from the eleventh floor as john bolton went to defcon 1. nothing. he managed to get conservatives in his camp and make a pit

endorsing most of obama's foreign policy without losing data base. that is quite striking. if he can continue that move is interesting. one on ohio. obama has opened up more field offices in ohio than starbucks. that is astonishing. a ground game differences are really striking. how much difference that makes, you have to get voters enthusiastic. obama will be spending ha i'm getting his voters enthusiastic as aiming for the independence. early voting in ohio on saturday and sunday. that is what the supreme court allowed. the limited hours. they declined unanimously to review it after an appeals court said that the early voting

should apply. hours are limited, but sunday voting is one that has proved to be extraordinary for african- american voters that go right after church. there is a half without ohio, but it is a long and winding path. as you watch these polls, the politics average is terrific, but in the swing states, they are pulling every day, sometimes twice a day. if you look like the -- if you look at the rowboat polls, they cannot call cell phones. there is a substantial difference in the voting inclinations of cellphone voters phone voters.hon the national polls, looking at

what is a real possibility of romney winning the popular vote in losing the electoral college are changed a bit by the enormous level of support among white voters in the south. he is not pulling them at ohio, which is one of the main reasons. the overall national numbers do not necessarily reflect what matters in the states that we have been talking about. >> two quick points. heromney doesn't win ohio, has to win wisconsin. if you don't think there'll be a massive swing to romney that will make individual state calculations roughly irrelevant. he is closer in ohio and wisconsin despite ryan being on the ticket. ohio has been anywhere from 1.3

points more republican than wisconsin. which is why he is here in ohio today and not doing a tour of madison, green bay, milwaukee. the blue-collar question, as michael pointed out, it big difference between southern whites without a college degree and midwestern and eastern whites without a college degree. i suspect if you could get below it, he would see it is even more stark. the blue-collar whites are substantially more likely to be catholic or non-evangelical protestants. when you take a look at where the swing against obama was last time, where the breakdown in ohio is, i suspect if you're going to break that out on

election day, you'll see the same week is that -- weakness romney was not able to connect with the non-english evangelical protestants. the german catholic who, the catholic in lake eerie. if he loses, that will be the reason why he lost. >> we will start over here, if you can wait for the microphone. tell us who you are. >> thank you for having us again and again. i am a u.s. correspondent for newspapers. i have a question for henry. if you have not mentioned the

governor of ohio at all. was that on purpose? do you think he doesn't play our role? >> i have never found and governors matter of law in presidential elections. they can help organize volunteers, but they're standing or their popularity almost never holds over. the one thing i should have mentioned is the race from two years ago is a good indicator of mitt romney's weakness. after leaving congress, he came from an investment bank background and was running against someone in the west virginia part of ohio. it was eyes on the side of the working-class man. in the atmosphere of 2010, he won by only about two points.

he did much better in affluent suburbs that he did in the working-class areas. one of the things that i will be looking at that they talked about after the election is the degree to which the strickland numbers were an indicator of whether romney did or did not hit vote targets in 2012. >> late breakers, if there are that many undecided, do they traditionally go towards the incumbent in final days? don't they break that thway? gothey don't necessarily against the incumbent. what the polls suggest is that they go against the leader by a

margin of about 5-4 or maybe 6- 5. if 6% undecided in ohio, they broke against the leader, 6-4, that is one point or 1.5 points for romney. it suggests a nail-biter. if romney is up 2-4, it's a close loss. there is really no evidence to suggest that the break is that substantive. >> the awareness, it averages 48 romney and 47 obama. depending on which poll you look at what weighting you give them. one as regard eitehher

the leader. fact lose sight of the that the incumbent president is that 47%. sometimes undecided people don't vote. they don't end up participating. they thought it was the magic number that would dissolve mitt romney into water on stage, the 47%. r fornot a happy numbe rfo obama. >> this is within the area of uncertainty were lots of things could happen. 12 years ago, george bush was ahead by 3-6 points. news of his truck driving the rest -- drunk driving arrest stopped his progress.

al gore stormed to win the popular vote. who knows what the next 12 days are going to bring? looking at the data, i don't want to discount the possibility that michael is right at all. i just think that there are lots of reasons to think that in ohio, it is looking a little stronger for obama that it is for romney. the opportunities to win and a lack moral victory absent a late minute break against the president are difficult. >> a question here, then there. minneapolis. i blog as the editor and right for publications in washington.

my question is for michael, but obviously for the other panelists as well. have been critical of the polling that has been taking place throughout this campaign. my criticism is that one of the things that happens in almost a weighted.y are it is republicans and independents. my impression especially when i look at the meat of the polls were the explain who they sampled is there is an over- weighting of democratic voters based on previous races that may not be applicable. i would like your comments. written abouts this.

basic polling techniques were developed in a country in which there were universal fallen lines and a population that answered the phone when i rang. we no longer live in such a country. the pew research center reports only 9% of the calls to initiate result in a completed interview. are the representative of the larger voting public? we hope so. we're not entirely sure. we do know that the exit polling has tilted to varying degrees toward democrats and in that 2008 primaries it tilted heavily to barack obama. part of it was interview are biased. the interviewers were female graduate students, i will let you guess in which party. the direction that work. parted it is respondent, who had

a willingness to be polled. i do look with some suspicion about these polls. that seemed suspicious to me. we have to keep in mind the party identification questions are different in different polls so the responses are not always commensurate with the exit polls which -- with which we compare it. carlin talked about polling may become as obsolete as i fair to say, print journalism has become. >> if i could add a few things, this is a business beset by serious problems. a study showing a 9% response rate, it is hard to believe it could go much lower.

most of the pollsters do not wait for party identification in the u.s. they consider party identification and attitude, not a demographic. the way for the standard demographics because the census tells us how many women and men there are, how many 18- 29 year olds and they are providing us with different pictures of where the election is. those that are waiting for party identification showed no pick up for mitt romney after the first debate whereas those who did not wait for party identification showed romney gained after the first debate. some different things going on as michael said. i would not be surprised if we do not seep telephone polls by 2020. only cell phones -- pollsters

can i reach this houses in the same way. >> one thing, when i get into a pole, i know is that -- poll, i look at rdi. one thing i find is all the polls that tend to show romney with larger leads underweight the poll. they did not show what the non-white population was. it worked out that the overall numbers made sense if they voting population was 80%. the voting population has not been 80% white in this century. the poll that showed romney up

by of one-person shows 24% non- white. it was 24% in 2010 and 26 in 2008. that is an optimistic republican sample. would suggest to me over the next week that is one of the key factors are will be looking at. because the differences between white and non-white voting is so stark that even a one. estimation shifts one point on the margin. >> this is important because everyone will be following these polls. there's a reason why the gallup poll has shown and is tracking surveys, wide fluctuations from one day to the next and they show in party identification numbers which are normally stable and that is another problem with the surveys. who was going to answer the phone? the people who are enthusiastic.

if something is good you want to talk about it. if something is bad you do not want to do so. if you look at -- there is an interesting analysis of different surveys. there was also a panel survey. they have taken the same boaters and ask them before the first and after the first debate and found almost no difference. a very sharp distinction from other surveys because there was no enthusiasm gap in this case. it is the same groups of people. it tells is that you need to take the surveys with an enormous grain of salt. >> everybody agrees that the first debate swung the voters toward rummy. what i would like to know is,

how many of those were committed obama voters and what does that say about the future? can people who say they are committed voters be changed at all? >> i think what we saw at the outset of that debate was after the democratic conventions, we saw a drop in undecided and a move toward weakly attached. after the conventions, that dropped to around 6%. that is when you saw obama move up by a couple of percentage points. we're seeing people who are now weakly attached. they will become strongly attached and the closer we get to election day, a less likely it is we will move people. at this point there are people who are weakly attached, and they can be moved. >> i am a journalist with the

dutch delegation. there is a consensus that debates do not move elections but we have seen the first debate did. can you parse dress the way that the last debate in terms of foreign policy may or may not have moved some voters in florida or has made romney a viable candidate for other groups of people? >> i think i disagree in terms of if he is saying that romney is hugely switching his positions on these issues. i think an argument can be made that positions have been intellectually consistent by the standards of candidates over the years. and somewhat more so, perhaps. it seemed to me that romney's performance in that last debate

did interesting things. he was talking about how much he wanted peace, he did not want to have any more afghanistans or iraqs. he was speaking to college- educated women, a group in which he is make king significant gains -- he is making significant gains with. i think also it is partly -- the germano-scandinavian zone of america, iowa and wisconsin, two states that our target states. rasmussen reported a five-point obama lead although it is not target's part state -- state. that is the first isolationist,

dovish parts of america, relatively speaking. i think barack obama's boast, i killed osama bin laden, not as big a plus in the states among some people who have been voting democratic as they are in many others. from the talking about peace. the other thing he did was talking about to malta and chaos in the world. i think the libya situation has hurt barack obama by giving people a sense that his promise in 20 -- 2007 and 2008, if you elect me, the world will love america. and the muslim world will love america because my dad was a muslim. i think that is -- what has happened in libya tends to undercut that. the differing explanations we have had from the president and the administration about it has

cut that. it clearly has eroded what was an obama lead on foreign-policy to a point where it is a bout -- about parity. the video tape and i would commend all of you, "the daily show," which did a juxtaposition of what romney said should move beyond the usual margin of candidates. he did it adroitly. it seems to have -- it does not seem to have excited a base he has moved. in terms of debates and movement. we see debates where it is -- there is movement and it is important. the only election where the debate might have been decisive was 1980. it was 10 days before the

election but it was a question of whether a challenger at a time when an incumbent was extremely and populate -- unpopular, there were not convinced of challenger was over the bar of acceptability. when regan got over that, the flood gates broke. i do not see where romney got over the bar of acceptability . i did not see fundamentals and i did not see it much in the third debate. we did a survey of undecided voters before the third debate. one-third of them were undecided but leading to -- leading to romney. the other one-third where undecided about whether there are going to watch football or baseball. >> we will be back on november 84 luncheon. i hope you will be able to join us as we talk about election results. the final question goes here.

>> i am curious about the impact that minority voters are going to play in the swing states, florida, virginia, north carolina, ohio with hispanics and african-americans compared to 2008. >> you have african-americans who're going to vote heavily for obama everywhere. the obama campaign is concentrating in turning out " low propensity" voters which would include african-americans. the vote is not uniform. obama is doing very well, perhaps even better with hispanics in 2012 that he did in 2008. but hispanics in florida in surveys that have looked at are about evenly divided as they were in the 2010 governor's

race where a republican governor, rick scott, carried hispanics. not a warm and fuzzy liberal republican but nonetheless did so. there are cubans, you have porter ricans -- puerto ricans, the other group i will point to is asians that no one has looked at very much. most asians are in california and hawaii. not exactly target states. asians in northern virginia, i think that is the biggest asian group in a target state. the republicans have been working them pretty hard in fairfax county and if you listen to romney's answer in immigration in the second debate, he is trying to be more palatable to latino voters to

see an anti illegal immigrant stance as being more cautious out to hispanic people. it was mostly -- aimed precisely at asians. there are less concerned about illegals. there are fewer illegal asians and the idea of stapling a green card to a diploma hits the spot with many asian americans. >> if i could add what michael said about the minority of boat looking ahead, hispanics as a group have grown much faster than any of us expected looking at the census data. they still have what the great demographer at brookings calls a translation problem. the population is so young, many are not registered citizens. we expect 21 to turnout on election day. for whites that number will being 51 or 52 overall. that is an important thing to

remember. this population is coming very fast and something that republicans will have to deal with that they have a translation problem. the african-american population is a slow growing population. that will affect elections going forward. henry? >> the non-white vote is crucial for president obama. he will lose the white vote. the only question is the size of the margin. every non-white voter he turns out -- it is 80% to 85% likely to be a vote for him. in ohio, this is a black-and- white stay. there is no appreciable non- hispanic or asian population anywhere in ohio. early voting is focusing on the african-american community. what african -- michael said about the asians has some support from the washington post

poll. among non-whites, president obama was carrying 79% which is what he did four years ago. he was running similarly 95%-96% with african-americans and i had with hispanics and that takes up 24%. if he is running even among african-americans, he must be suffering among asians. asians, that is the only way the math can work out. he must have a substantial asian dropoff. that impacts a state like virginia. given that -- if cromie loses florida, he is done anyway. assuming romney does when florida, it is an interesting battle -- election night rather than a boring one, nevada and colorado are states where

hispanic saar important and those are states where the mormon population is quite important. >> i want to thank all of you for coming and thank my panelists for wonderful presentation and we will see you on november 8. [applause] >> would you support military action in iran? >> if need be, yes. as a last option, yes. >> under what conditions? >> if sanctions do not work. if they are close to and about two, have the ability to develop a nuclear bomb, we use every action possible as will israel and that would be the last option would have to use but we would have it ready to use. >> we stand with israel and we did not lead iran develop a nuclear weapon. the military option should be on the table. >> under what conditions? >> i can tell you what that would be but we had better exhaust everything else and at the end of the day, if that is

what is needed, i am still serving, i will be the first to run. maybe i can wash windshields but i will be the first to volunteer. we will have an honest discussion about what is needed. >> follow the key races on c- span, c-span radio, and c- span.org/campaign2012. >> will be live tonight. in 45 minutes from ohio, sherro d brown faces a challenger. this is the third and final debate and it is moderated by chuck moktada of nbc news. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, steve king debate his democratic challenger, christy vilsack. new york times" reports

that vilsack has raised more money than mr. king. and martin heinrich and heather wilson. we will also have a prayer service for george mcgovern. it is being held in south dakota later today. he died last weekend at the age of 90. we will have a prayer service live on c-span3 at 7:00 p.m. eastern. the funeral service is scheduled to begin at 2:00 p.m. here live on c-span. >> i like c-span's coverage because it is well-diversified. it covers all sides independent, democratic, and republican views. c-span is not boring because it is a topical. their current events which is interesting to me. i am a current events junkie. i love what is going on right

now and they're talking about issues that matter to americans right now. >> michael mccarthy watches c- span on cost medications. c-span, created by america's cable companies in 1979. brought to you as a public service by your television provider. >> you are watching it live. one of 10,000 homes that they're trying to get done in the next four years. [inaudible] these are houses that are never coming back. >> not right now. one family every 20 minutes moving out. >> these houses are disappearing from the landscape. >> there are 90,000 right now ready to go. >> 164 firefighters were laid

off as part of the downsizing, as part of this effort for the mayor to get the finances under control in the city. firefighters which detroit needs because it has -- it must have the highest case of arson in the country, these guys are laid off. two weeks later, 100 guys are rehired. when you look at where the money came from, the department of homeland security has a fund. i do not want to overstate, that is something you want to think about. the department of homeland security is stepping in to keep the trade as safe as it can be for the moment. it could be a lot safer. we're talking about i wonder and i have wondered making this film, we're seeing the auto industry bailout and the bank bailout. are we heading into an era of bailouts of the city? is there such a thing as a failed city? >> more with heidi ewing on

"q&a." >> president obama held a rally in richmond, virginia and headed to his home town. he spoke in richmond for about half an hour. >> hello, virginia. are you fired up? are you ready to go? i'm sorry, are you fired up? you look wonderful. are we going to move this country forward in 12 days? it is once again going to make virginia elect the next president of the united states? let me also say a word about tim kaine. 32 years tim and i have known each other. we went to law school together. he became a lawyer, i became a

client. this is a good man. somebody who served as a missionary, served in richmond as a city council mayor, s -- councilmember. served as a mayor and a great governor. let me assure you in washington, in the united states senate, we know we need people who can get things done. will you send me tim kane -- kaine? 12 days, how many are you -- how many of you are sick of the tv ads? elections matter. we are -- we know that elections matter. facts matter.

over this campaign we've seen the other side with countless millions of dollars trying to rewrite history and we're not going to let that happen. we remember four years ago when this economy was losing a hundred thousand jobs a month. we remember four years ago when we questioned whether the financial institutions would stand. we remember four years ago when every challenge around the world, americans are the one who answered the call. we know under this president. the leadership we have seen 5 million new private-sector jobs added. we know under this president the stock market has doubled and we're finally starting to see the housing market recover. we know under this president america is respected and has allies across the world.

more to do. we have more to do. the one comment i want to make, my background before was governor, before i was senate, i was in business. anybody here got a cell phone? i matched my business credentials against anybody, democrat, republican, independent, or libertarian. and i know when you look at a business plan you got to make the numbers add up. one of the things the president will take on because he has put a plan out there to try to deal with a crippling debt and deficit. as a business guy, i have looked at the romney-renne plan -- romney-ryan plan. you do not need a business

degree. you just need to know arithmetic. hear me on this. think about it for a moment. governor romney has said he wants to cut taxes for everybody. that means $5 trillion more to the debt. he wants to add what -- beyond what pentagon has met. that is $8 trillion deeper in the hole. how is he going to fix that? he is going to wave a magic wand and he says he will get rid of some tax expenditures. if he eliminates everyone's ability to adapt their mortgage interest on their home, not just rich people but everyone, if he eliminates anyone's ability to give to your church or hospital

or university, if he said you cannot pick any credit for all expenses, you can do that for a one and you do not get close to what he is talked about. i know business 101. if you are in the hole, the first thing you stop is stop digging. and part of it as well is what this plan is for the future. we know the present's plan. the president invested in infrastructure and he realizes our future is the best educated work force. business when they invest going forward they do three things. invest in your work force because you have to stay competitive. whether you're making widgets or software you invest in equipment to make sure you stay ahead and in a global economy you have to have a plan to stay ahead of

your competition. countries do the same thing. when a country invests, we college education. when a country invest in equipment, we call the infrastructure. we invest in research and development to its correct and create the next idea. i have looked at the business plan. it would cut our investments in those areas by 75%. there would have an america that spends less than 5% of its tax dollars educating its workforce, building its roads and bridges or creating the research and development that will create the next generation of jobs. do think india will have a business plan? will china had a business plan? i have to tell you, the mitt romney at bain capital would never invest in the mitt romney business plan for america, and neither will we.

[applause] we got any students here? this president understands the cost of higher education. he has put investment into pell grants and student loans. we need to support that. we got anybody who is tired of driving up and down congested roads? this president said we need more money for roads but also for high-speed rail. are you for that as well? and this president understands that his most important duty is to keep america safe. it was this president, our commander-in-chief who took out osama bin laden. this president understands that we're in the greatest debt of gratitude to our veterans and

military families and he will honor that. you know and i know that in to resonate, it was virginia that elected barack obama. in 2008, we changed the guard. in 2012, we are the change. stay with me. in 2008, we changed the guard. in 2012, uighur the change. my fellow virginians, please help me in welcoming our president, president barack obama.

>> hello, virginia. are you fired up? are you ready to go? i am sorry, are you fired up? are you ready to go? but begin by giving it up for your outstanding united states senator mark warner and the man who is going to join him in the

u.s. senate, tim kaine. these guys are great friends of mine. there were great governors of this great commonwealth and there will be an extraordinary team fighting for you in washington. you also have a great congressmen coming out of virginia, bobby scott in the house? your mayor is here. all of you are here. this is a nice looking crowd here. you may notice that my voice sounds a little horsarse/ we are in the middle of our 48 hour -- we're right in the

middle of our 48-hour fly-around campaign extravaganza. we pulled an all-nighter last night. we just came from florida. we were in iowa and colorado and nevada before that. we are heading up to ohio later today. and i am going to stop in my hometown of chicago to vote. [cheers and applause] i cannot tell you who i am voting for because it is a secret ballot. but the good news is michelle said she voted for me. she did. and i have come to virginia today to ask you for your vote just 12 days from now. i need your vote. i have come to ask for your help in keeping america of

moving forward. you have now seen three debates, months of campaign events, and way too many tv commercials. so you have heard what the argument is about here. you understand what the choice is. you have heard governor romney's sales pitch. he has been running around -- [boos] oh, no, don't boo, vote. he is saying he has a five-point plan for the economy. it turns out to be a one-point plan. folks at the top are to play by different set of rules than you do. they get to outsource jobs. they want to roll back wall street reforms that we put in place to make sure we do not have taxpayer-funded bailout.

that was his philosophy in the boardroom. that was his philosophy as governor. if it sounds familiar, that is exactly what we tried in the last decade before i came into office. it led to falling incomes and record deficits and the slowest job growth in a half a century and the worst economic crisis since the great depression. we have been working for four years to clean up the mess this policies left behind. and now governor romney wants to take us back to those policies, but he knows they are probably not very popular. he knows his plan is not any different than the policies that got us into trouble. in the final weeks of this election, he is counting on you forgetting. he is hoping you come down with a case of romnesia. he is hoping that you do not remember that his economic plan

is more likely to create jobs in china and america because it rewards companies that ship jobs overseas. he does not want you to remember that he will raise to more taxes or blowing a hole in the deficit. he is hoping that you will come down with a severe case of romnesia before you cast your ballot. richmond, i want you to know this -- this is a curable disease. if you feel any symptoms coming on, if you are starting to get a little woozy, your eyes are getting a little blurry, some ringing in your ears, if you cannot remember what you said just a week ago, cannot remember the plans on your own website, and you are worried he

might be coming down with a case of romnesia, i want you to know that "obamacare" covers pre- existing conditions. we can make you well. can fix you up. what you got to do is vote. now -- hold on. you know -- >> four more years! four more years! four more years! four more years! >> i want to explain something, we joke about this, but this does to a pretty serious issue, the most serious issues of any presidential contest, and that is the issue of trust. trust matters.

you want to know that whoever is in the oval office is going to fight for you. you want to know that they will not take just the expedient path, that they will be guided by compass on how to make sure the american people have a chance to succeed if they are working hard, and more importantly, that the next generation will have the kind of america what we want them to have. you know what? you know me. you know i say what i mean and i mean what i say. [cheers] we have not finished all the work we set out to do in 2008 just yet, but every single day i set foot in the oval office you know i am thinking about

you, i am fighting for your families, and with your help we have met major commitments that i made four years ago. i told you we would end the war in iraq. we did. i said we would be ending the war in afghanistan. we are. al qaeda is on the path to defeat an osama bin laden is dead. there is a new tower rising above the new york skyline. our heroes are coming home. i have kept those promises. i was proud and humbled to learn that we have colin powell's support in this campaign. i'm grateful to him for his lifetime of service to our country, but as a soldier and diplomat and every brave americans who wears this uniform of this country, should know that as long as i am your commander in chief we will sustain the strongest military in the world.

we will be relentless in pursuit of our enemies. that is our promises i kept. four years ago i promised to cut middle-class taxes for families and small businesses, and we have. i promised not only to end taxpayer-funded wall street bailouts, but i said we would get every dime of money that was used to rescue the financial system we have with interest. i promised we would repeal don't ask don't tell. today you cannot be kicked out of our military because of who you love. i said i would make sure that americans do not go bankrupt when they get sick. and we have passed "obamacare," and it was the right thing to do. i promised that we would give help to young people so they could afford to college, and we have.

i have bet on american workers and american ingenuity and saved an auto industry. after losing 9 million jobs in the great recession, our businesses have now added more than 5 million jobs in the last 2 1/2 years. manufacturing is coming back. our assembly lines are humming. we have a long way to go, virginia, but we have come too far to go back now. we cannot afford to go backwards to the same policies that got us into this mess. we have got to go forward with the policies that are getting us out of this mess, and that is why i am running for a second term, and that is why i am asking for your help.

i have got a plan that will actually create jobs, not just talk about creating jobs, a plan that will create a middle-class security, not just use the words but not deliver on the promise. unlike my opponent, i am proud to talk about what is in my plan, because the arithmetic works. if you want to take a careful look at that, go to barackobama.com/plans. there still people can turn to make up their minds. maybe somebody in this crowd got dragged by your boyfriend or girlfriend, your grandma said you got to go to the obama rally. and you said, all right, grandma, but you're not yet convinced. compare it to what governor

romney's plans are. see what plans you think are better for you. i want you to have the information you need to make an educated choice about this issue, about america's future and your own. the first thing in my plan i want to end tax breaks for companies who are shipping jobs overseas. i want to help small businesses and manufacturers create jobs right here at home. that is a priority. number two, i want to cut our oil imports in half by 2020 so we control more of our energy. because of what we have done, to make sure that we are also investing in the clean energy sources of a feature like wind and solar and biofuels, we today are less dependent on foreign oil than any time in the last two decades.

we have passed regulations to make sure that fuel standards on cars and trucks are doubled so that you will go twice as far on a gallon of gas, which is good for our environment. i do not want the cars of the future, i do not want them made in china. i want them made right here in virginia. i want to put people back to work in here in the united states. we can do that. number three, i want to make it a national mission to educate our young people, to train our workers. i want to recruit 100,000 math

and science teachers. we got to step it up. i want to train 2 million workers in our community colleges so they have the skills to get the jobs that are out there right now. i want to work with colleges and universities to cut the growth of tuition in half. i want to make sure that young people are not burdened with debt. we can do that. number four, my plan will cut the deficit by $4 trillion over the next 10 years in a balanced way. yes, we will cut spending we do not need. we have already cut $1 trillion, but i will ask the wealthiest to pay more, so we can invest in the research and technology that will keep new jobs and this is coming to america. and i am in the process of making sure that we are reducing our deficit. i will not turn medicare into a

voucher program. no american should spend their golden years at the mercy of insurance companies. and you know what -- i think we have seen this week, i cannot think any male politician should make health-care decisions for women. i do not think your boss or your insurance company should be making those decisions for you. i believe women are capable and should make their own health care decisions for themselves. that is why the health care law we passed puts its best choices in your hands where they belong. that is where they are trying to stay as long as i am president of the united states. finally, i will use the savings from the ending of the wars in iraq and afghanistan to put our

people back to work to do nation-building at home, fixing our roads and bridges, repairing schools, broadband lines in the rural communities said they can connect, and when our veterans come home, we will make sure we have the resources. nobody who fights for this country should have to fight for a roof over their heads when they come home. this is the plan we need, virginia. this is how you build a strong, sustainable economy. this is how to create good middle-class jobs. this is how you encourage new businesses to start here and to stay here. this is how you increase take- home pay. this is how you build an economy where everybody who works hard has a chance to get ahead. that is what we can do together.

but it is up to you, virginia. we are content to make a choice, something for young people here to decide what kind of future you want. it is up to people like me and some of you to make sure we make the right choices for future generations. we can use the top-down policies that got us into this mess, but i think we have to choose the policies that are getting us out of this mess. choose a foreign policy that is wrong and reckless, or you can choose one that is steady and strong. you can choose to turn back the clock 50 years for women and immigrants and gays, or in this election, you can stand up for that basic principles enshrined in our founding documents that we are all created equal, that everybody has a voice in america, that it does not matter who you are or what you look like or where you come from or who you love, black or white, hispanic, asian, young, old,

rich, poor, gay, straight, able or disabled, it does not matter, you have a place in america. you can make it if you try. that is what is best in our country. that is what we are fighting for. virginia, we have been through some tough times, but we always bounce back. the american people are always tougher than any tough times. we always come out on top because we pull together, because we look after one another, because we do not leave people behind. we do not close the doors behind us if we are successful. we open it up wider so folks can walk through. we do not turn back. we look forward. at that distant horizon, at the

next destination, our destiny is not written for us, it is written by us, and we will write that next chapter together. that is why i am asking for your vote in this election. that is why am asking you for your vote, and i promise you, you give me four more years, you will have a president who always hears your voice, a president who will always fight for you and your family, a president who spends every waking hour trying to make your lives a little bit better. virginia, i believe in you. i am asking you to keep believing in me. and if you're willing to roll up your sleeves with me and work with me, knock on some doors with me, take some phone calls with me, we will win richmond, we will win the commonwealth of virginia again, we will win this election, we will finish what we started, and we will remind the world wide the united states

of america is the greatest nation on the earth. god bless you. thank you, virginia. god bless america. ♪ ♪ here i am, signed, sealed, delivered, i'm yours ♪ back and not ashamed to cry ♪ ♪ here i am ♪ signed, sealed, delivered, i'm yours ♪ am, baby ♪

♪ hey ♪ ooh baby ♪ ♪ here i am, signed, sealed, delivered, i'm yours ♪ ♪

>> right. the election, we will have coverage of house and senate, and governor's races. up next, we will have debates, the first one is ohio. a debate from the fourth district. steve king debates his democratic challenger,

christine hill said. then, a debate between martin heinrich and former republican congressmacongresswoman heather. now, the debate from ohio between democratic senator sherrod brown and his republican challenger, josh mandel. this is their third and final debate and it is moderated by choctaw of nbc news. -- chuck todd of nbc news. >> this might be the most important battleground. i am chuck top of nbc news and welcome to the third and final debate between the two men vying to be one of ohio's two voices years.io for the next six us

senator sherrod brown claims that he has the track record of working for the state's interest. josh mandel would like to put the country on a better course. we have a live audience here and i promised them that i would give them one chance to applaud both of these gentlemen. so, there is your queue. [applause] in exchange, they have said they will keep the applause down. give theire to message to you. we have a panel of questioners from around ohio tonight.

each candidate will have 90 seconds to respond to a question from our panelists followed by one-and responses from the appointed and then a 30-second rebuttal. mandel won a coin -- early this week and he decided to give his remarks last. >> thank you, nbc. i stood before voters and promise i would fight for the middle class if elected to the senate. that is what i have done for six years. my pledge to you tonight is that i renew that promise and i will continue my fight for the middle class. being a u.s. senator is a lot about listening and learning. i have held more than 200 round tables and i gathered a good mix of democrats, republicans, and independence. we take the ideas and thoughts back to washington. one of the most mineral discussions i had was with a gentle man who worked in a

toledo plant who was afraid that his plant was going to close. he said, how do i support my family? how can i pay my mortgage? how can my daughter continue her studies? i knew that i had to go to work. i've worked with president bush in the fall of 2008, with president obama in the winter of 2009. we knew how important automobiles are up to ohio. 800,000 vehicles are connected to the auto industry. it is not just the big auto assembly plant. it is the steel plant just up the road. that makesorplant components for airbags in brunswick. we knew that this had to be bipartisan, we knew it had to be a partnership between the fog

roll government and local communities, local businesses, small and large alike. we stepped up and did it. now, my point is says that my vote was on american, an american. to me, that a vote was doing my job to fight for their jobs. >> i would like to think nbc and the aarp and everyone is viewing and tonight. my name is josh mandel and i'm running for the u.s. senate. i running for the senate because washington is broken. here in ohio, one in every four children is in poverty. this is unacceptable. in order to change washington, we have to change the leaders we said there. over the next hour, i look forward to having an opportunity to tell you about my specific jobs plan to bring new jobs right here to the state of ohio. unfortunately, in washington,

things are broken when it comes to economic development, when it comes to growing the economy right here in the state of ohio. i believe washington can take a little lesson from what we have done here in ohio. look at the state treasurer's office. we have earned the highest rate on our bonds and investments. our portfolio is up over $2 billion since the death took office. we have navigated the european sovereign debt crisis not only with a loss but with a yield on behalf of taxpayers and we have done this well voluntary -- voluntarily cutting our budget. compare that to washington and the failed record where they have not passed a budget for over three years. the u.s. credit rating was downgraded for the first time in american history under sherrod brown's. over the next hour, you will probably hear him attack me. he has used most of his money and most of his time attacking me. the question that senator brown

is getting throughout the state of ohio from democrats, republicans, and independence is for a guy that has been running for political office since richard nixon is present, to have a few good things to say about your record? he doesn't. he has been in washington for 20 years and it is a record of failure. he talks about setting up for the middle class but the reality is that he stood on the middle class. during his time in washington, and employment rates, foreclosure rates up. health-care costs, up. senator, that is quite a record. the reality is that we need to change washington and the only way we will change washington is by changing the people we said there. >> before i get to the questions, i will start with a question for both of you basically on your careers. senator, you have been in congress 20 years. our recent poll shows that congress's approval rating is 12%. when you got into congress, it

was a robust 27%. we know that congress is not a popular thing but it is even more unpopular today. how do you defend your time in washington? >> let me give you an example of how my experience works. i know what china trade has done to our state and a loss of manufacturing, virtually every place in the state from medium- size cities like springfield, cleveland, toledo. i knew we had to address that issue. i went to the republican senators from north carolina, south carolina, alabama because i knew that china currency problems had afflicted their state's textile industry. i work with them in a bipartisan manner. we put a group of 8 people together. i'd let on that. that is because of expense i have had in washington is actually helping me to be a better senator. >> you are looking to hold your

fourth political office and the last seven years. how do you assure ohio voters that this is not a stepping stone, that you are going to be reliable, a consistent voice for six years? >> i signed a term limits pledge and i think that all politicians should sign the pledge. i stayed there a maximum of 12 years. i will go there with as much passion and energy as possible and make as much positive change as possible and then i will come home and live under the budget and laws that i credit. senator brown signed a term limits pledge when he ran in 1992. he promised to stay there for only 12 years. after 12 years he said, well, i changed my mind. i am enjoying my time in washington and he has been there for two decades. i will stay there for the longer than 12 years. i will do everything i can to bring jobs to ohio.

then i will live by the same laws and rules that you live by. in washington, sherrod brown's popularity is pretty high, but here in ohio, it is pretty low. >> i talked to a man who is a father of three who has been out of work. he was one of the 4000 people standing in line trying to get one of the positions at the horseshoe casino. if you win the election, how can you bring more jobs? >> first of all, look at what has happened. we were losing 300,000 jobs a month.

our unemployment rate got higher than 10.6%. today, it is down to 7%. it is not good enough for that gentleman or the other is in line, but it is moving in the right direction but we got there because of the auto rescue. we got there because we are enforcing trade rules. there are jobs and there is a new steel mill in johnstown. more aluminum jobs in sydney and heath. we focused on community colleges, job training, to match up what employers need. i was at cincinnati state the other day working with veterans. there is a program that came out of the veterans committee. we passed the vowed to higher heroes act. there yet, we need to

focus on this, but we're moving in the right direction in part because of these partnerships between the federal government with local businesses and local communities. >> since sherrod brown went to washington, the unemployment rate for women has gone up but on a plan that rate for african- americans have gone up. on employment rates for the middle-class has gone up. that is a record of failure. first, we must make the tax code more friendly for small businesses. i would be proud to have larger employers and it is small businesses that drive the economy. when multinational corporations can filed a 50,000 page tax return and pay no taxes, it is a mark of a broken system. this is unfair to the middle- class and small businesses. we need a tax cut that is simpler for small businesses and middle-class that lower tax rates. secondly, the regulations that come out of washington are

crushing small businesses and killing jobs. third, we must drill for oil in gas and irresponsible way affects the water that we drink and it creates jobs throughout the state of ohio. >> what we don't do is follow the economic path that we followed it from 2000 until 2008 where congress -- i opposed this, but congress and the president gave huge tax cuts to the wealthy, hoping that it would trickle-down to the middle class. it did not do that. in the 90's, we saw 21 million jobs increase. that is the kind of policy that i want to follow. focus on the middle-class rather than top-down tax breaks that may or may not trickle down for this gentleman or any of those looking for work. >> do you believe that government can create jobs? >> i think is the role of the

private sector to create jobs, not the federal government. one of the reasons we got into this mess was because the bailouts. sherrod brown took our taxpayers' money to bail out the big banks. i don't think that we should be bailing out large corporations or banks on wall street. i think the private sector should drive the economy. i trust them a lot more than faceless bureaucrats. >> does the government create jobs? >> the government as part with the private sector to create jobs. right now, if a company sets down in norwood and moves to beijing, shanghai, they get a tax deduction against their federal taxes to do that. we have tried to eliminate that tax break that gives an incentive to go overseas and it has been filibustered in the senate. the otter rescue is the perfect example where the government partners with the private sector. i am proud of my work. -- the auto rescue is the

prophet example where the government partners with the private-sector. >> treasurer mandel, you have not specifically indoors to the paul ryan budget plan which would transform medicaid and medicare and make overhauls of many government programs. it is something that virtually all republicans in congress have supported. if elected, would you vote for the rhine budget plan, yes or no, why or why not? >> would you vote for the -- would you vote for the ryan budget plan, yes or no? >> i've not come out in support that plan. i have a plan of my own. my parents are baby boomers. i believe is unfair to change medicare or social security whatsoever for my grandparents, for my grandmother and her

generation, and my parents and their generation. one of the things that bothers me about the problems with social security is that politicians in washington, sherrod brown and others, have wrought and stole from the social security trust fund which funds social security for our senior citizens and they have used that for taxpayer-funded bailout of wall street and large corporations. that should stay in the trust fund to save social security. it comes to medicare, we have to repeal the affordable care act. when senator brown cast the deciding vote on that piece of legislation, they took $716 billion away from medicare in order to fund obamacare. third, we need to make common- sense cuts in other parts of our government and ordered to fund social security and medicare far into the future. >> you have 60 seconds.

>> i don't have a specific comment. what she might have heard that answer -- >> you might have heard that answer. i know this sounds like washington speak, you vote yes or no. of course i voted against their ryan plan because of what it does to the middle class. it is more tax cuts for the wealthiest people in the country, it is more spending on the military, dollars the department of defense did not ask for. it cuts right at the heart of the middle-class and the poor. it is cuts to college pell grants, cuts to stafford loans, cuts to education and health care programs that people rely on. that $700 billion myth that we hear about over and over again, if we had cut medicare, you would see less benefits in medicare. instead, seniors in this country have significantly more benefits on all kinds of preventive care, on savings in the prescription drugs because

of the health care plan. >> that is definitely washington speak, talking around in circles. here's the reality. senator brown cut $716 billion from medicare. that is unfair to our senior citizens. it is unfair to our baby boomers. it is unfair to others reaching the age of eligibility. i will take a backseat to no one when it comes to saving social security, saving medicare, and ensuring that these programs are funded far to the future. >> i will take a point of privilege. what does that mean? are you for raising, are either one of you for raising the retirement age in order to deal with medicare or social security? >> for my grandmother, who i mentioned, we should not change anything for medicare and social security. for my parents, who are baby boomers, we should not change it. but my knees, and that. she is 20 month old. we maintain the status quo.

there will be no social security or medicare. obviously, for folks who are toddlers like my niece, or elementary school kids, we have to make changes. one of the things we should celebrate in this country is that people are living on three. we have increased life expectancy, improved health care. >> what is your age limit and of when you start doing that? what limit should you start looking at? >> we should look at folks who are least my age and maybe some who are older. for those that are baby boomers and senior citizens, it is unfair to change this. >> senator brown, you have been bowles-simpson and there are changes to the retirement age. >> i will give you a specific

answer, no and no. i met a woman in youngstown a few months ago who said that i am 63 years old and i don't have health insurance. i just want to stay alive until i turn 65 so i can get health insurance. if you raise the retirement age for people on medicare, maybe if you dress like this, your the state treasurer or a u.s. senator, maybe it works. but for a lot of americans, it does not. what does it work for anybody? >> you don't raise the cost >> does it work for everybody? >> you don't -- yodoes it work for everybody? >> you don't raise the retirement age. for people that work in diners, they cannot work until 70. i would not cut benefits or raise the retirement age but i would think about raising the cap. the social security problems are not --

if you can find a way maybe with $300,000, $400,000, we can talk about that in detail. i can give you specifics. >> i guess i have not heard an answer. anyone watching at home has not heard an answer yet. i yield the rest of my time. what did you do with that money in the cells to secrete trust fund? >> i came here to talk about issues, not to make accusations. let me explain to you. 1940, when the first check was sent out, when fdr signed it, franklin roosevelt, there has never been one of late payment. there has never been one failure to pay for social security. the fact is that it has worked for 75 years. there are counting issues that i disagree with that which would change, but the fact is that it is reliable, and it will be reliable for this generation,

the next generation. >> where does it go? what did you do with it? >> let me move on to the next question. >> my question is for senator brown. you were part of the auto bailout which you voted for as saving hundreds of thousands of dollars. the federal government stands to lose $25 billion on in the investment with gm. is that too steep a price tag? >> i do not entirely agree with the presumption that the federal government stands to lose. i think that right now, the stock price suggests that there could be some long-term issues. but, i told you the story of the workers. i can talk to people at the line at the ford plant. i can talk to the people outside of dayton that supply gm and other companies. i can tell you literally hundreds of stories of people whose homes were saved, whose

families are getting an education, who are getting along okay today because of that rescue. that is why people came together. that is why senator voinovich, republicans and democrats a lo -- alike, it was not perfect, but look at where we are. we had 10.6% unemployment rate in 2010, now is 7%. it is going down. 20% of the growth in gdp since the of the rescue. that has come from automobiles, 20%. -- 20% of the gdp since the auto rescue. a sharons the plant is hiring people for the first time in 12 years. -- a sharonsville plant is hiring people.

honda has invested 100 million new dollars in their plants. chrysler and gm have invested 500 billion in the last year alone. that is huge progress. it is clearly what keeps the middle-class going. >> you have just heard revisionist history from senator brown. he was not elected in 2010, he was elected in 2006 and he has been in washington for two decades. he attacked his opponent on high unemployment rates. since he has been in washington, unemployment rates have gone up and up for the middle-class come up for women come up for african-americans. not heard him mention the bailout. middle-class employees. men and women in the 60's and 70's who lost most of their pensions. they were planning on these to

live far into old age and he supported a process that stripped them of their pensions. i could not have supported a process that stripped them of their pensions. >> i never said i was elected in 2010. i said i went to work with senator voinovich in 2008 to save this industry. all of this about the workers. i am very concerned about the workers. i have done all kinds of things to protect them. it was gm who made the decision to shortchange the workers and not talk off the pensions. i fought over this, i proposed legislation to change this. i want to make this happen. if we had not done this rescue, the delphi workers would have had it worse than they do now. that does not satisfy me, but i will continue to go to bat.

>> is there a bailout that would have supported in an industry here in ohio? would there have been a breaking point we said, we have to give the auto industry something? >> i am not a bailout senator. there is no government bailout that i can think of that i could never support. if you are looking for a bailout senator, that is sherrod brown. he used your tax dollars to bail out wall street and large corporations. i will not take your tax dollars and use them to bail out wall street and large corporations. >> go down to the street and talk to the management. they understand banks. one of the banks that you railed against i think is supporting you. a number of other regional banks are in business because we stepped up. the point is that you what would you have done.

would you not have done what president bush and senator voinovich wanted to do? just let this industry fall apart? i know it is a good talking point for you, kind of empty slogans and poll-tested kinds of statements, but i wonder what you would have done to help the middle class in the state. you have come up with nothing to say how you would want to help the middle class. >> i will give you a few minutes to respond. >> well, i talked earlier about part of my jobs plan. talks reform for small businesses, regulatory reform, also of drilling for gas in the state of ohio. we need to do everything we can to help blue-collar workers. my grandfather was a member of the united autoworkers union. my grandparents were immigrants from italy. they put the food on the table, the sacrifice of the mother could go to community college.

that is america, that is the strength of the middle class. that is what i will fight for in washington. >> so, there is no government money, government assistance. so, there is no government assistance? >> i would have followed a different process. i believe that if we would have done that, these companies would have come out even stronger and these blue-collar men and women who work for the auto companies would have come out much stronger and the retirees would have actually had their pensions. >> we're about to take a break but before we go, a model supreme court justice. >> justice scalia. tomayor.ce soda

>> we have to take a break. when we come back we'll talk about social justice and the role of washington. >> would you support military action in iran? >> if need be, yes. as a last option, yes. >> under what conditions? >> if sanctions don't work, if they are close to and about to have the ability to develop a nuclear bomb, we use every option possible as will israel and that would be the last option you have to use. we would have it ready to use. >> i think we stand with israel and we do not let iran develop a nuclear weapon. i think the military option should not be on the table. >> under what conditions should you recommend it? >> we had better exhaust everything else. at the end of the day, if that is what is needed, i am still serving. i don't know what they need for a the time the colonel.

whether theyow need a lieutenant colonel. >> follow the house, senate, and governor's races on c-span, c- span radio, and at c-span.org. >> two more debates will be live tonight. at 8 eastern, i was's fourth district. then, a debate between martin heinrich and republican heather wilson. now, back to that debate in ohio josh mendel. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012]

>> welcome back to the third and final debate. >> treasurer mandel, this is a contentious debate. there are supporters of both of you tearing down signs. the word "liar" was used by you. but where can you find common ground with the other side of the aisle, or the other? >> i think we do not fund foreign countries that harbor

terrorists. sen. brown may not support this but some of his party will. you voted to give money to pakistan, to try for treason the man who helped us find osama bin laden. he gives money to libya, where our ambassador was killed. egypt, where the muslim brotherhood runs the country. in a vacuum, this would be wrong. but we are operating in an economic environment with a $16 trillion debt. sherrod brown sends our tax dollars to other countries. i will work to keep your tax dollars from going to these

countries. i support what joe mansion stands for with responsible exploration of oil and gas in ohio. brown is trying to block exploration and voted against the keystone pipeline and doesn't support coal-mining. i believe in ohio, energy equals jobs. >> senator -- >> most of what josh said wasn't true, about where we spend money, and energy exploration. let me answer it this way. i told you about the roundtables. a farmer told me we can save billions of dollars taking away the farm subsidiesd with a bettr

safety net. i went to sen. thune from south dakota. he got it amended into the farm bill and it passed in july. it can be the china currency bill. i teamed up with kay bailey hutchinson -- i can list 10 or 15 things that were good, bipartisan efforts that are making a difference. >> treasurer mandel? >> that is washington speak. he's been in washington two decades. he has voted with his political party 95% of the time. he's a rubber stamp. i will stay away from the bosses on both sides and lobbyists and very powerful interests.

my boss is the 11.5 million people in ohio. nobody will push me around. >> sen. brown. the senate -- they have not passed a budget in the last three years. senator, your party has been in charge of the senate in tha t time. how much blame do you share for that? have you had a conversation with sen. reid about how the senate isn't doing its job. >> i don't agree with that assumption. on the 96% -- 96% he voted with the republicans. the only time is when he voted for payday lenders then went to the bahamas.

sed budget resolution is pas by the house and senate. it is a blueprint, but it doesn't have the force of law. yet passed the budget control and, signed by the president of the eds states to drop $2.50 trillion. he says that we did not pass the budget but the budget control light, which has the force of law and cut $2 trillion, is making a difference in getting our budget under control. i would add that i was part of the budget in the 1990's when we got to the budget surplus. i did not vote for the war or the tax cuts for the rich. with the giveaways to the drug companies that blow a hole in

the budget. we had the biggest budget surplus to the biggest budget deficit in 2008. >> so you believe the senate is doing their job? >> i think that they did the right thing in the budget control act. this includes revenue and going after these tax loopholes. the politicians who signed the pledge to the lobbyists grover norquist -- >> i will give you 60 seconds to respond. >> sitting around your kitchen tables you can't go three months without managing your finances. you can't go three weeks without managing the budget for your small business. but he and other career politicians have gone three years since they passed a budget. he talks about the budget control act. if you are watching this, think

for a second. do you have the budget control act in your small business? this is washington speak. we manage our small business with the budget. but these politicians to think that they can live by different set of rules. after you've been there 20 years i think this is what happens. i support the proposal this is, no budget, no pay. >> this is a good sound bite but it doesn't get us to where we need to be. we passed the budget that does to the biggest budget surplus in american history. because of grover norquist, and george said that we will never be able, if republicans keep citing his pledge, we will never get to a balanced budget. he says not only can you

increase revenues, asking the wealthiest taxpayers to pay more, you cannot stop the outsourcing of jobs by taking away the tax break that corporations get when they move jobs. you can talk about this but you have to have a balanced approach. >> but you have not passed the budget -- you can do this on a partisan vote. the house passed a partisan -- a partisan budget. why didn't harry reid do this? >> the budget control and cut $2 trillion from spending. we cannot get closer to a balanced budget because of the lobbyist pledge. this said no tax increase for upper-income people, -- >> did not want to pass this with only democratic votes? >> this is not the issue. you have to have the balanced approach with revenues and tax

loopholes. this was $2 trillion in cuts. this is not a game without the budget control act. >> the next question is to you, and we will continue the conversation. >> you have portrayed herself as an outsider and say that you will not be holding to anyone, the lobbyists or member of your own party, but you signed the pledge by grover norquist, who is a registered lobbyist. not ever raise taxes. how is this that you consign this pledge, and say that you are not beholden to someone who was an insider in washington? >> i am proud to stand up for lower taxes. i don't believe we can tax our way to prosperity. i will fight tooth and nail to lower taxes for small

businesses and job creators and middle-class families. compare that to washington and shared brown, in washington he has raised taxes 36 times. 36 times during his 20 years in washington. he did not pay his taxes once, he did not pay his taxes three times. he is raising your taxes and is not paying his own. when he was asked why he did not pay his taxes, his answer was that he forgot. maybe the understand that once or twice but three times, you forgot to pay your taxes? you are on the banking committee that deals with mortgages. if you are not paying your own taxes. the reason congress has a 10% approval rating, is because they

think they can live by one set of rules. it is so proud to stand up for lower taxes. i helped pass the first property tax rollback in the history of the county. >> this is simply not true, again, but i have come to expect that. he did not answer the question about grover norquist. it is not just talking about middle-class taxes. he has a fast against raising taxes on hedge fund operators, who pays more than mitt romney does and most of us to. he says you cannot raise taxes on many millionaires were millionaires. the worst part is, i know the oil industry is your friend, but you can't close tax loopholes for the oil industry, or these companies that outsource jobs.

you are be holden, not that your chances of going to the senate are that high, but you are be holden to so many interest groups before you even -- before the election, even. all of these people who want to keep washington going the way that it is. >> when we started this campaign, our chances of going to washington were relatively slim and we were down 17 points. the recent poll had a sorry but up one. . one reason is because there is such a mix of people who are sick of the washington speak, to live by one set of rules. i will live by the same rules that all of you have to live by. putting food on the table for your families every day. >> the front page of this

morning's wall street journal had a chief executives -- including macy's coming out to say, some taxes have to go up. is there any circumstance we will vote for a tax increase. >> i believe we should lower taxes across the board -- lowering taxes for middle-class and job creators, and small businesses. i believe the tax code is completely broken with large, multinational corporations with 50,000 page tax returns to pay zero taxes. this is unfair to the middle- class and small businesses. in washington i will raise that -- i will lower taxes and not raise taxes. when i go to washington i will lower taxes. we will grow our way out of this problem.

lower class is for small businesses and the middle-class. >> senator, do you believe that you can lower rates and raise revenue? is this realistic? lowering rates, which is what some symbols -- simpson-bowles tried to do? >> this will have to be a balanced plan, and we will have to put pressure on the candidates who signed the pledge to grover norquist. the $2 trillion that we cut with the budget control act, this means closing tax loopholes, this means medicare saving money by negotiating drug prices directly. rea importation with canada. there are a lot of ways to save billions of dollars. we can say that we will always

beat for lower taxes. we have cut taxes many times and i will continue to do that. but this will have to be a balance plan. >> i want to go back to something that mr. mandel was talking about. you attack them -- and now you are exceeding president obama's agenda 96% of the time. is this one-sided? >> what i have done is taken on the president of my own party when i think he is wrong. i disagreed with president clinton as a freshman member of the house on the north american free trade agreement. it was not easy opposing the president of the united states as a freshman member of congress and i have done this with barack obama on trade issues. i have done this with banking issues.

on too big to fail, my legislation to break up the sixth largest trillion-dollar banks in this country, we lost on that but the support for this is growing. i have never had problems taking on the president of my own party. and i will not. >> you have 60 seconds. >> rather than listening to the rhetoric, look at the record. he has voted 96% of the time with his party. when i was a city councilman in lyndhurst, ohio, i introduced the first property-tax rollback in the history of our city. we give tax relief to senior citizens and working families. i worked in a bipartisan fashion -- and we reconstructed the oversight to the workers'

compensation investment fund. i worked in a bipartisan way to pass down the budget and try to keep young people in ohio. identified the exports with ohio and worked in a bipartisan way to manage the finances in the state of ohio where we have the highest rating on our bonds and investment and voluntarily cut our budget two years in a row. >> i would emphasize that he voted with his own party -- he voted with them 96% of the time. the only time he doesn't is if the interest group does not have a better offer. he voted against his leadership to satisfy the pay lenders and raised a lot of money. there is nothing in his elektra records that would show that he

ever stands up to his political party on anything significant. >> is there one big area of disagreement you have with mitt romney, mandel? >> it is on defense spending. a lot of republicans say that you cannot cut military spending. i will do everything i can to be vigilant against the war with radical islam, but we don't need these bases throughout europe. we are not fighting the cold war anymore. we should trim down the bases we have in europe and bring home the young men and women. use that money to fund medicare. >> colleen has the next question. >> he said that you sign legislation to ban abortion without exception. what is your opinion on cases

like rape and? >> -- incest? >> i do support the life of the mother and this is an issue that is a very divisive issue, and this is an issue where people are very passionate on both sides. and i respect that. i am pro-life but i understand that people have different positions. but there are areas of common ground. one of the areas where we can work together, is on the better loss for adoption. we should encourage adoption in the united states of america with federal laws here in the state capital. and taxpayer funding of abortion -- our tax dollars should be used to fund medicare, and social security. and funding the military.

they should not be used to fund abortions. sherrod brown is an extremist on the issue and supports using your tax dollars to fund abortion. we should not support abortions in the ninth month of pregnancy. but sheriff brown has an extremist position. can you explain to the people watching at home tonight, why do you support abortion in the ninth month of pregnancy. >> i have never heard anyone say that to me, judge. unlike judge mandel, -- josh. unlike josh mandel, my opponent has an extreme position and signed the exceptions for anything, rape and incest.

there are tens of thousands of women who get pregnant from rapes every year. it may not be something we want to acknowledged in the end, i will trust of high women to make their health care decisions. >> this is an area where we should find common ground and work together on better adoption laws, and stop at taxpayer funding of abortion and stop abortion in the ninth month of pregnancy. he is an extremist and out of touch with mainstream ohio. >> i have a quick question for both of you. mr. mandel, if they send obama to the white house and you to the senate, and to you, sen. brown, of romney carries the state but sends you to washington, what do you take away? >> i believe that mitt romney

will be the next president but if president obama is reelected, i will work with them and i will work to move the ball down the field economically for the state and our country. if the voters of the state of ohio go in that direction, they don't want a rubber-stamp, the votes for his party 98% of the time. >> i think if this happens, people sitting back and say, sharon brown -- sherrod brown is his own guy. he fights for his district and i would guess -- it could be a mixed message. but of course i'd work with mitt romney. i can recite a dozen cases we have made this way.

>> the coin toss -- i think i got this right, mr. mandel? >> i was inspired to join the marine corps by my grandparents. one of my grandfathers was liberated by allied troops and the other served in the air force. we can debate like this and we can disagree but when the debate is over. we will shake hands. there will not be any punches thrown or shots fired, nobody will be in jail. but in places throughout the world, that is what happens. the rock the world, people who disagree from different political parties are killed if they lose the election or are thrown in jail, where their kids get kidnapped. the great thing we have in this country as we can disagree and debate in an energetic way but once the election is over, there

is a peaceful transfer of power. when i raised my right hand to join the marine corps i raised my hand for the of to defend that freedom, and there has been a lot of accusations and claims going both ways, i would like to thank to people who are watching here today. one of them is connie schulz, the wife of sen. brown, and my wife. she has been loving and alana, i can't thank you enough. my commitment to the people of this in ohio is that you will have no stronger fighter in washington than josh mandel. i will not stand up for republicans or democrats or lobbyists, i will stand up for your jobs. if sherrod brown was the answer, our problems would be

solved long ago. to change washington, we have to change who we send there. my job is doing everything i can to fight for your job. >> thank you for your kind words about my wife. i wish your wife well. my wife is the audience with my daughter, elizabeth, emily -- 36 weeks pregnant with her first child. in the last hour, you've heard a lot of empty slogans and poll- tested soundbites. i am more interested in getting things done. i have all the state newspapers endorcinsing me, and the fraterl order of police. i am proud of that.

but it is about who stands and fights for the middle class. on medicare -- i think this is an earned benefit people make their entire work lives. they expect it to be there when we retire. he wants to voucher this and turn it over, for something as important as stafford loans. if it is the communitycollege -- thos kids can get an education on the china currency bill. the biggest jobs bill to pass the senate -- josh mandel doesn't support this. and the auto rescue. the contrast is this clear. mandel supports tax cuts for the

richest people, in the hopes some trickles down, and i support focusing on the middle class, and community colleges, auto rescue. >> that concludes our debate. i want to thank our candidates. with the two candidats and the aarp. thank you for watching and listening. your job is not done. you have until nov. 6 to cast your voate. te. i am chuck todd with nbc news. goodnight.

>> would you support military action in iran? >> if need be, yes, as a last option. yes. >> under what conditions? >> if sanctions don't work, and if they are close to have the ability to develop a nuclear bomb. we use every option possible. we'd have that ready to use. >> ms. duckworth/ ? >> we don't let iran develop a nuclear weapon. >> under what conditions? >> we should exhaust everything else. at the end of the day, if that's what is needed, i'm still serving. i don't know what they need -- but i'll be the first to