libya under decades of dictatorship and we will look at news and take your calls on "washington journal" is next. >> ♪ host: good morning and welcome on this wednesday, january 30, 2013. the senate has confirmed john kerry as the next secretary of state. also, transportation secretary ray lahood has announced he will step down. on capitol hill today, the head of the nra testifies before the senate judiciary committee on gun violence. also testifying, retired navy captain mark kelly, husband of former congresswoman gabrielle giffords, who was shot two years ago in tucson. the washington post as a story about how families react when

local public schools closed. a group of activists a closing schools most of text poor and minority students. -- most effects poor. we would like to hear from you. here are the numbers to call -- you can also find us online. send us a tweet. wheat can share that on the air. you can join the conversation on facebook by looking for c-span .r e-mail us in the headline in the washington post this morning --

what you think's? is closing public schools a civil rights issue? the washington post says --

other stories related to this, from "the huffington post" --

those phone numbers again -- we will start with an independent caller this morning. lou in connecticut. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to see all public schools closed. public schools are a government monopoly, and utter failure. it would be like having a government monopoly in the automobile industry and we would all be driving hugos. it is a rip-off. the american people should be booked to choose the school for

their children and the cost would drop in half. it is a government monopoly and is a disaster. i went through public education. i am 53 years old and i did not learn anything. it was a joke. host: what about the responsibility of your local school district as opposed to the federal government? caller: i guess it was better 30 years ago or so when i went to public school because we did not have the national education association. but i would say to close all the public schools. i am getting fleeced totally and the schools are garbage. it should be privatized. the private sector does 1000 times better than the government. that's what i have to say. if anybody disagrees, they should have a history exam. host: lakota kathy colleague from oregon this morning on our

independent line. cathy from to oregon. caller: good morning. i'm curious about the civil rights issue. i would like it done by zip code. all u.s. citizens should get the same type of educational matter what state they move to. americans and everyone else. whether you be rich or poor, no matter what state you move to because of your job, you would have the same education. it would be really love to r children to know our constitution inside and out. and for all the words in their vocabulary to be excellent. thanks so much. the best of luck. host: our next caller is in washington, d.c., on the democratic line. caller: thanks for taking my

call. it's my first time. i don't have a dog in the fight. i don't have any kids, but i am an advocate of education. i do have cousins and siblings in the city here. i'm a taxi driver and i get into the middle of conversations and over here conversations. the problem i have is the impact that the private schools are having in the inner cities -- you don't find charter schools where there are less minorities. they are concentrated in minority areas. they take away funding from the public schools. the impact when they shut down the schools, as a taxi driver, you have people having to get their kids up early just for transportation purposes to get the kids farther to other areas

that they have to transition to. i just think that it so much of a business. i watched 60 minutes when they talk about the boarding school. the impact of that charter school, it had such a profound impact. that is the other side of the story. for the most part, the starter schools are targeted at minority neighborhoods. anybody listening can show me where there is a concentration of a charter schools and they're not in minority neighborhoods, i would like to know. host: sounds like some of your fares are families bringing their kids to school outside the walking district. ?hey're not being bused

caller: that's right. you see the kids. sometimes you see them standing at the bus stop and you wonder where are their parents. it is just an inconvenience. when michelle reed took over in d.c. and started closing schools, the impact was huge. it went under the radar of the media, the impact. if you get some callers to talk about the impact of the cost of transportation, the human impact of having to get the kids up super early to get them to school that they have been assigned to, it's all because the charter schools are for profit. the payroll comes first like most.

host: the d.c. schools insider with the washington post emma brown reports -- are cholera is mentioned michelle reed, a former chancellor at d.c. schools. here's a story from the washington post from last fall.

what do you think about clothes in public schools? is it an issue in your community or something you and your neighbors are talking about? do you see it as a civil rights issue? thad in georgia, republican. caller: i believe our public schools are failing us as a nation. i live in atlanta. many of our public schools in atlanta have been questioned or lost their accreditation because they are not meeting standards currently. our public schools are failing us as a nation. that is evidenced by many of your callers who don't have a very firm grasp of the english language. host: do you think the closing

of a school that's not performing to a federally set standard is a fair move? caller: fair in an unachievable goal. i was told my entire life by my parents that life is not fair. life is not fair. host: glencore go on to brandon in dover, delaware, on our independent line. caller: how are you? nice show as usual. in delaware in my area we are having no problem with school closings. they are building more schools and bigger high schools and things of that nature. so we're having no problem here. do awaythink you should with the public schools. i have seen it being a problem because i used to travel a long way to school and i used to see houses out in the country.

i used to think, sooner or later, that will be a problem. i went to a good public school, polytechnic. it was a vocational school. if any thing, the government needs to have more vocational high school is so people can have a trade and go to college at the same time. in delaware, elementary schools, schools, and so forth, it's not a problem. host: here's what "the huffington post" says about the meeting that took place yesterday in washington.

our next caller is from north carolina on the democratic line. good morning. caller: how are you? school or public private school or charter or anything else. the systemic structure of it is cool was designed an 18th- century when there was slavery. let me give you an example of how we are doing it right now. the word "proficiency"does not mean you are intelligent. in means you can take artificial test. second, it means you pass it on the same day as everybody else. we have kids who are severely cognitively disabled all the way

up to mensa society and at all the range in between. we are saying they have to be at the same place at the same time. the reality is kids blossom at different times. we don't yet have a concept in education that kids blossom at different times. until we get that concept, we are just wasting our time with all this other stuff that does not mean anything. host: sandra in charleston, west frontier new, independent line -- west virginia. caller: i'm calling about it defects closings have had on the rural communities in my state. when we had our little rural schools there was a sense of community. the teachers knew the parents. the parents saw the children that were walking to school. they closed almost all those schools and consolidated in the larger schools where the children ride on the buses and it makes the day so long for

young children. it is immoral in my opinion what has happened to the younger children the way they are bused to the big consolidated schools where nobody knows their families. it has destroyed any sense of community and parental involvement and control in the schools. r white know whether poo children are entitled to civil rights or not, but they ought to be. host: what would your solution be? would you advocate having a one- room schoolhouse or having students of multiple ages talk in the same instructional area? what would you do to keep those schools in your community? caller: some of the schools i am thinking about or 1-room and two-room schools. they focused on basic education. reading, writing, and arithmetic. i could name many people i knew

who attended schools like that who are literate and who went on to universities and some of them are even professors. i don't think children are getting the same quality education now, because there's no emphasis on teaching basic skills as. host: let's hear from richard in mount vernon, new york, republican line. caller: good morning. michelle rhee and ben chavis should be the two people in charge of the education system in this country. instead we have unions and the secretary of education doing nothing. all the unions care about is money. we have a teacher now who molested children and this man will get $85,000 a year for 13 years and he's being protected by the union. i am quite sure that none of

these union people would want their children being taught by this man, to be in the classroom with him. host: have you thought about public school closures and if the closures and everywhere from west virginia to cities like philadelphia and chicago are something that affects kids and families? caller: no. as far as closing schools, michelle rhee, when she marched into washington, she started closing schools. things were getting better, but they did not want that, so they got rid of her. a person who was doing exactly what you are talking about. what bothers me is i am african- american and we need more than any other race of people on this planet, but educators. but the bottom line is money. it is not going to get any better, no matter what happens. host: let's turn our attention to some other news.

here's a headline from the washington post -- his relentless campaign against distracted driving, is safety first mantra, and his determination to visit every state gave him a higher profile than several predecessors in the role. we also see this headline --

on the phone with us now to talk more about john kerry's confirmation and what it means for massachusetts politics is frank phillips, boston globe statehouse bureau chief. guest: good morning. host: we will get more into how the confirmation hearing went, but first, what happens next in terms of filling his seat? when will we see him take the position of secretary of state and when did the vacuum get created? guest: we just came through a tremendously competitive senate race last fall with elizabeth warren and scott brown. now there's going to be a special election, of which will be held on june 25 with the primary on april 30. everybody is lining up to see what's going to happen. ed markey, the dean of the congressional delegation from massachusetts, immediately got

into it several weeks ago and drew some important endorsements. but now it seems he will be challenged for the race -- for the nomination by steve lynch, a south boston democrat, a little bit more conservative on issues, particularly on abortion. he will announce on a thursday that he will get into the race. we will have a democratic primary. the republicans are not clear. everybody thought scott brown would try to get back into the u.s. senate, having been defeated by elizabeth warren, but he is not showing his cards yet. he will have to within the next several days, because time is running out. the republicans are very anxious. scott brown has been standing in the polls, despite his loss. they don't really have anyone else to put in the field. the democratic primary could be the whole ballgame. host: that is frank phillips talking about who might run to

replace john kerry in the senate seat in massachusetts. what happens in the short term? governor deval patrick can name a temporary successor. what are we looking at for that? guest: we will know in a couple hours. everybody is on edge on that. this is massachusetts politics. several names are being floated around. he's keeping it close to his vest. vicki kennedy, edward kennedy's widow, is one person whose name is on the top of the list. and his former chief of staff, moe, he could be one of those. the governor said he was leaning toward putting somebody in there, a woman or person of color. carol, a woman named

prominent african-american business woman who has been active in democratic politics. her name has been floated. but we really don't know. we should know sometime this morning what he's going to do. that person will be committed to not run for the seat. they will serve as a temporary interim senator until the election is held on june 25. host: is there a guarantee they will not run? could prepareo pledged to the governor. but there's nothing in the law that would prevent them from deciding to run. that would be another great political developments in massachusetts politics. host: governor deval patrick gets to make a choice and will be on the national stage for a moment. is this an opportunity for him or are there other potential winners from this announcement

today? guest: the person who is chosen will have on their resume former u.s. senator. it's a nice little thing to have. deval patrick, is his decision. he has been very deliberators about it and very close to the vest. he will be on center stage. it will be his show. i -don't - a lot of people say that he is setting himself up for a presidential run or something. he says no and i believe him. host: thanks so much for joining us. guest: you're welcome. host: years the wall street journal headline on senator kerry --

in other news, relating to the secretary of state, secretary clinton says if she's not inclined to run for president in 2016. the outgoing secretary of state leaves the door open, says that she will write a memoir. she is doing a series of interviews. gave a "q&a" with students around the country. that's where she said she would start a memoir and work on causes dear to her. we are talking to new this morning about the closure of public schools and whether you think it's a civil rights issue. we have gotten some comments from our facebook page. you can join the conversation by

looking for c-span on facebook. daniel taub is our next caller from broken arrow, oklahoma, democratic line. -- daniel. caller: good morning. we had a couple schools around the area that) there's been talk of turning them into prisons. that scares me a lot. i'm about to have a child soon. i want to know what is going to be going on when it's time for her to go to school. i think it's very much a civil rights issue.

i can understand how other such a gray area. when you don't have a good foundation for education, you cannot expect the next generation to step up and able to lead and have good jobs and things like pat quinn. i went to an alternative school where we have smaller classrooms and there was a more personal relationship with teachers. that did make a difference. i can see where people are coming from. host: was your alternative school public school? caller: it was a public-school run by the broken arrow school department. they did not like to run it, but they had to. and it worked very well. a lot of kids would not have graduated it's not for the school. host: why was a school set up? caller: we had a block schedule. eight classes per week. he would alternate. one day you would to four glasses and the next day the next four. host: what was the reason for establishing the school? caller: when they first did it,

it was all behave your problems. by the time i got there a couple years down the line it was for more at risk students. i was in danger of dropping out of high school because a lot of bad things happened and i lost faith in myself. if i had not gone to that school, i would not be where i am right now talking to somebody on the news. i did not use my opinions. i did not think, anything like that. i never wanted to be involved in anything. it was a great opportunity and really changed my life. host: what's go to milton in san jose, california, on our independent line. caller: good morning. that was a wonderful caller before me. i wanted to say of my concern is how do we calculate failing? if we base it on standardized tests, we should remind ourselves that standardized tests have a lot of problems and they measure a certain type of intelligence.

that has been disproven, that intelligence can be measured. when we have privatized school, i want to know what the motivations are. one of the communities i lived in recently, a christian school was formed. i have a lot of respect for christian theology and philosophy and was raised in a christian background. but when your premise is it a logical and you want to have your kids separated from public schools that use their not religious enough, i worry about is your priority about the education of the students or about something else. host: what would your solution getting ourof school and is performing? you talk about problems you perceive with the way we measure and create standards. caller: i think we have to appreciate the fact that curiosity is a very valuable commodity.

and it's very fragile. if we don't respect and individuals curiosity, if we don't inculcated in them and love of knowledge, a genuine ppassion for learning, maybe education is missing the point. if we are just training people to be vocationally qualified to, we might be operating on more and industrial model of education where we batch kids by manufacture date. if we give kids an opportunity to really love what they do, then i think that is the goal. it's a standardized test helps that, then great. but i have a suspicion it does not say how you perform according to some testing agency standards. i don't think it's related to your curiosity. host: let's look and how the obama administration laid out its educational plan a couple years ago. because we know that about 12% of american schools produce 50%

of america's dropouts, we will focus on helping states and school districts turn around their 5000 lowest performing schools in the next five years, what president obama said in 2010.

that's what the u.s. department of education says was part of the plan for states to identify their lowest performing schools and economically challenged areas and to transform them. those are the options of how they could be transformed. on our democrat line, we're in brooklyn. caller: thanks for taking my call. i have called in several times, but this is the first time in a while i've been compelled to call in on the subject of education and closing schools. i live in new york city. the mayor just made an announcement yesterday about the budget and more school closures. it's all about teacher evaluations. as a grandmother, two generations put through public school, my son and my grandson is now a junior high school, i totally advocate for more parent involvement. i think that is the missing part

of this equation, not enough people are talking about the lack of parental involvement. my son was in public schools. there was a problem with getting parents to come out to the pta meetings. that. is still that i go to the pta meetings and there are five parents out of 500 students. too much of the blame is being put on the teachers. the teachers cannot raise the children. they can teach them but not raise them. they have limits of what they can do and in their classrooms. i think the most important thing we can do now in america, not just new york city, find ways to be creative about how we can bring in more paris. -- more parents. the system is too stringent. in new york city we have won parental pta meeting per month

and the parents did not make it do to all kinds of reasons. i'm trying to get it so we can change it so we can customize ways for parents to come. whether it is saturdays, sundays, evenings, mornings, so all parents' voices can be heard. my whole reason for calling was to put it out there that there's not enough parental voices in the system. i don't know how it's more feasible to close the schools and build more jails cells, which is probably going on in the poor communities more than anywhere else. one other point i wanted to make, the money part of it. making a profit in charter schools seems to be more important than educating the children. every child learns differently. standardized tests, we don't live in a one-size-fits-all society. standardized tests do more harm

than good. i work with a teacher who just retired after working 25 years. she is dedicated to the craft. not one day missed in school. she still works on issues of education. she is still trying to put together things that could help the teachers she left behind. she talks about the diversity in the classroom as a part of the problem. we have a lot of non-into a speaking -- non-english speaking kids and gs-2 tried to learn how to teach the children in a divorce classroom. so that's a big issue that has to be worked on within the school system. how do we not slow down the children who don't have a language barrier problem with the children who do? there are a lot of kids that can be worked on. but we need parent patrol and not security guards, not police officers. we need parents patrolling the hallways. most of the bullying problems

and things but go on in school does not go on in front of a teacher or an adult. we need parents there who can better chastise and stop the bullying issues and the children would be -- you can get their attention more in the learning process as opposed to the playing around and hallway activity. there are 25 or 30 students in the classroom and the teachers don't have time for them. all they do is practice for the standardized tests. that's what the lady told me who just retired after 25 years of teaching. she said we spend all of our time practicing for the standardized tests. it's not fair. host: brought up a lot of issues, michelle. the idea of having parents patrol schools and be a more

active presence. here's what the washington post story about activists and parents talking to the department of education had to say about new york.

angeles up next and in the and on our independent line. -- angela. caller: my issue is that nobody ever gets to know the real problem. parents have more --the parents have more -- i am really disgusted because parents have more of a problem than the teachers. all the teachers than had been in my children's life, i love them. i have sent cards and brownies and the coaches, they come out of their own pockets. they are more concerned about your children's education than you are.

a lot of parents, i tell them that they're not involved, they are not at the conferences. i hear the teacher is saying i call the parents and they say i cannot do anything with my child. the teachers say, you need to work with me, help me to help your children. until the parents start getting involved with the children, this is not going to work. host: the headline in the washington post says a plea from parents and activists -- stop closing the schools. if parents say they don't want their local schools closed, should they be listened to? caller: any thing that happens in my children's life, there asap. write to your senators and congressmen. i've gotten excellent results. my kids are on the honorable pierre their excellent kids and they work jobs. host: what do you think about the idea of closing local schools if they're not performing up to a local, state,

or federal standard? caller: if you're not cutting the mustard or standing up and getting involved, what can they do? host: good go to william in florida, republican. caller: how are you? i have been listening to your callers and the rabbani has excellent input and they're all correct. the system is really dysfunctional. part of the parliament is the federal -- part of the problem is the federal government cannot mandate things from thousands of miles away. it has to get back to the local level like it was years ago. the people who live in a town know what's best for their people. the federal government is such a big bureaucracy. it is really just a waste of time. they don't know what they're doing and they don't do anything to correct the problem. the other issue is we try to spend too much time and effort on this academia. not everybody is a cerebral person.

some people love to read. other people read a few sentences and get bored. there are many people out there who are not book learners but they have skills. we don't have any venue for that issue. if you wanted to be a butcher or carpenter or electrician is what i mean. when i went to school, i went to a technical school in new york. if we had an agricultural department that taught farming. we had a technology area where they taught you about being an electrician. and there was another area where we actually work on airplanes in the aeronautics. people learn how to work on automobiles. how many people really go to college? it's not 100%. probably not even 20% of the people go to college. host: getting back to the question of closing schools, how

does that factor into your opinion? caller: i think schools fail for so many reasons. it's like a domino effect. the parents don't give the effort that their children should have. the teachers try, but if you keep on beating a dead morse park, the poor teacher, what is she supposed to do? she has 35 children or 40 children in the class. half of them are dysfunctional. if i was a teacher, i would probably just give up like they do. host: some other stories in the news this morning. the financial times headline -- sun's how the baltimore puts that -- also in the news, and general seeks to sustain the afghan roll. -- role.

the washington post says there's no deal in sight to stop the sequester. the cuts scheduled to take place unless congress acts. deep cuts are likely according to lawmakers and there's little urgency from republicans and financial markets. the post reminds us the time line on march 1. government spending cuts, automatic across-the-board government spending cuts are set to take effect. pack of the reductions will target the military. half of them would come from domestic programs. there's also stories about the issues in the news today. from "usa today" --

this from the new york times -- the "new york times gives a graphic of where the guns are coming from. also, in the washington post, the nra vows to resist new gun measures.

c-span will be carrying that live later on this morning. you can find that right after washington journal later on today. let's keep with our phone calls on public school closures and whether it's a civil rights issue. mike is up next in north fort myers, florida, a democrat. caller: i love your program. host: thank you. caller: course offerings probably would have something to do with the improvement of the grades. i attended local schools in lee county. i was at the top of the class.

i went to college and also graduated with honors from the university of florida. but i felt the the thing that taught me the best was when i started making my own independent cultural studies, many of india and china, the buddhist and yoga culture in india. the performance intellectually can actually be improved through ancient methods of study and balance and diet, and so on. none of that seems to be handled much in the american schools. it seems like we expect a certain agenda or certain list of courses to make an intellectual and externally. and if they don't make it, there's nothing else that can save them.

that just is not the case. the development of intellectual prowess is more of an internal and cultural measure. some cultures are doing pretty well. india and china have very good intellectual records. host: we will look at a tweet -- here is a headline in the wall street journal --

that's why we're asking you this morning whether you think it's a civil rights issue. karen is a republican in houston, texas. backlashe're having a in texas regarding the testing. many people are concerned about proliferation of charter schools. what this has meant to neighborhood schools in terms of charter schools claiming higher performing students and not having english as a second language students. what concerns me from a federal perspective is that this takeover is subsidized through tax credits that or just extended by the fiscal cliff bill, which allows investors to come into our inner-city neighborhoods and build

expensive buildings, turned over and lease them to a charter boards and high rates, so charters don't have sufficient funding to even operator schools as far as operating expenses such as teachers and books and so on. i'm concerned about proliferation of charter's and what this has done to destroy neighborhoods. host: here's a comment -- coming up next, we will talk more about immigration policy. what the president had to say yesterday and what a bipartisan group of senators announced earlier this week. argos -- our guest is carlos gutierrez, now working on immigration issues as well as other things in his portfolio. later on, paul krugman, a columnist, gave us a visit. we will be right back.

[video clip] >> one cannot count the times that americans say that we are the best country in the world. what a marvelously stupid thing to say. of all the countries in the world. everybody thinks their country is pretty good. why do we have to believe that we are the best? what does that mean? and why do we have to assert it all the time? and what does it mean to other people who consume it? american products go around the world, information products go- around world. so you are observed by people in every corner of the world. we teach them not to like us,

gratuitously. >> author, activist, and transafrica founder randall robinson, taking your calls, e- mails, facebook comments and tweets. sunday at noon eastern on "book tv"on c-span2. [video clip] >> georgia o'keeffe was really the first well-known woman artist. even in the 1970's there was no one who could match her. she became a feminist icon. i grew up under that influence. my first recognition of her work was not as an art historian but as a budding feminist whose attention was drawn to the fabulous paintings. and i lived in colorado. people talk about this woman. it was the way she lived. from 1929 forward, she came to

new mexico for months out of the year if the living apart from her husband in the 1930's and 1940's. she continued to do this for over 20 years until her husband died. then she moved to new mexico full-time. she likes of our imagination as an artist, because she was famous so long and so famous, so young. second, she lived the life she wanted. she was a very disciplined woman. i think that stands out as women made choices even prove to the 1970's they made choices that accommodate family and other pursuits in their lives. georgia o'keeffe had one driving passion in her life and it was art. >> the georgia o'keeffe museum in santa fe, just one of the places you will see this weekend, looking behind the scenes at the history and literary life of santa fe.

saturday and noon eastern on c- span2. sunday at 5:00 on american v on c-span3.artt >> "washington journal" continues. host: carlos gutierrez was commerce secretary in the george w. bush administration. now he's with the group republicans for immigration reform, which he co-founded. thanks for joining us from new york. guest: a pleasure. host: the headline in the baltimore sun today -- secretary, what do you think about the president's remarks yesterday? it sounds like he will let congress take the lead if they can get rolling. guest: yes, i think the principles are pretty straightforward and very similar. it's pretty easy to agree to a set of principles. the real crunch will come in when you get into the details and when you get into the actual writing of a bill, which

the last time was 700 pages. it gets into a level of complexity that sometimes we disregard. i don't think that's the part about a threat of sending his own bill was necessary. if we get to the stage where the president has to send his bill because the senate is not making progress on their bill, then i think we are done. then it's probably going to be another five years before we get to this again. i think that was the kind of threat that you could make, but no one wants to be in that position. the important thing is to have unity of purpose, get together and to do a bipartisan approach, and get this done. both sides are going to have to a lot of compromise. host: let's listen to president obama's remarked yesterday in las vegas. [video clip] >> every day, like the rest of us, they go out and try to earn a living. often they do that in the shadow

economy, a place where employers may offer them less than the minimum wage or make them work overtime without extra pay. when that happens, it's not as bad for them, it's bad for the entire economy, because all the businesses that are trying to do the right thing that are hiring people legally, paying a decent wage, following the rules, they are the ones to suffer. they have got to compete against companies that are breaking the rules. the wages and working conditions of american workers are threatened as well. if we are truly committed to strengthening our middle-class and providing more ladders of opportunity to those who are willing to work hard to make it into the middle class, we've got to fix the system. we have to make sure that every business and every worker in america is pulling by the same set of rules. we have to bring in the shadow economy into the light so that everybody is held accountable.

the businesses and the immigrants getting on the right side of the law. common-sense. that's why we need comprehensive immigration reform. host: president obama speaking yesterday. secretary gutierrez, the wall street journal has a piece today called "obama's immigration principles." do you agree with this? were there warning signs in with the president said? guest: he did have this threat of his own bill and things like that. but there's no question that we

need low-skilled workers and we need high skilled workers. we have to really sell on what -- settle on what it's temporary, for temporary workers there must be some market flexibility. may have someone here on a temporary basis but to as great leadership skills. the employer wants to promote them. it's unfortunate the then that they have to go back because they're only temporary. so i think there has to be simplex ability in the system. these issues you mentioned, they are so close that this is the kind of compromise that we need. if the president has to compromise on a guest worker program or maybe having some triggers for the border before we start allowing people to get in line for green card, those should be easy things to compromise. the important thing is to get

the reform, to move forward, as the president said, and not get stalemated and use this as another political ploy to hurt republicans. the important thing is the country and the progress on the policy. host: here is what a republican of texas had to say about the senate immigration proposal that we saw the dog days ago. that we saw -- what is your opinion?

guest: what i say to my colleague, my republican colleagues, congressman smith, we cannot continue to dismiss every type of reform and every time we try reform with the word "amnesty." if we continue to do that, we will be sitting here in 20 years. the complexity of our system will be out of control. we will not be competing with the rest of the world, because they will be doing a lot better than we are. and we will still be dismissing anything that is brought forward with one word -- amnesty. with all due respect, i don't buy it. the meaning of amnesty is a full part and with no penalties. no one is talking about that. no one is talking about handing these folks a passport. no one is talking about a full pardon without penalties.

they have to come forth, have a then they can achieve legal status if they want citizenship. not all the undocumented workers do. then there is a process for that. they have to get in line and wait in turn and not cut in. we're beyond dismissing issues of national consequence and the future economic consequence for the future with one word. we have to get into the detail and the thoughtful and strategic. we need more than one word here. we have to debate this. we have to fix the system.

host: here are the numbers to call. with airline for legal and illegal immigrants -- we have a line for legal and illegal immigrants. democrats, 202-737-0001. republicans, 202-737-0002. independents, 202-628-0205. tell us about the group you co- founded. guest: it is a group to reach out to republicans to provide support to those republicans who want to support immigration reform. this is first and foremost an economic priority. we cannot grow without immigration.

have proof of that. anytime we have clamped down on immigration, we have seen it in our economy. this is a first and foremost an economic imperative. many republicans know and see that. we would provide the marketplace with education materials so that people understand this is the right thing to do. we have agreed we're not going to put people on buses and 747's. say, also not going to this is a passport for everybody. we know the solution is in the middle. that is what we have to work on. rejecting a notion because of a

lack of conviction for immigration is going to make matters worse. we have a disadvantage versus canada and australia. they have updated their system. hours dates back to the 1950's, 96 to's, 97's, and 98's -- 19 1970's, and 1980's. host: to take a super pac aimed at electing republicans becky -- dedicated to reforming immigration. let's go to the phones. caller: good morning.

i would like to set the record straight. there are not 11 million illegal aliens in this country. there were more like 26 million . obama wants to extend the invitation to come there to these people's families. we could end up with 35 million people. 7% of the people are from mexico and south america -- 70%. this is why obama was able to get back in as president. we should not be in a position where one ethnic group is able to determine the outcome of a election. host: we will get a response

from secretary gutierrez. guest: i don't know what the source of your numbers are. i have never heard those numbers. they sound incredibly inflated. the thing about immigration that we should think about is that the reason we have undocumented workers in the country is that our laws are dysfunctional. if businesses cannot hire a worker with documentation, either they go out of business or they hire whoever they can. these folks have come to the u.s. because their jobs. they did not come seeking welfare. undocument it unemployment is lower than the national average

because they come to fill jobs that would be vacant if they were not here. when the job market is no longer market, they will not come. we need to fix our laws so are system enables us to bring in the workers we need to grow our economy legally. host: the caller mentioned the term 47% above those who use public services. that is a phrase mitt romney used. you were working with the mitt romney campaign. there was some criticism since the campaign wound down. guest: we have talked about the process -- the governor had to

take some positions in order to get nominated or to be the party's candidate. then take different positions in the national election. that is a system the party should be talking about. it is very tough in this day and age. the idea of self-deportation. oorhink it was very por advice. what it said to immigrants was get out, we do not what you hear. -- we don't want you here. he talked about having a comprehensive reform plan in his first year.

people were still asking about his statement of self- deportation. i think that was a part of whatever criticism i may have had. i believe we misread the immigrant population. they would say in polls, we want education and immigration would be number 5 or number 6. immigrants are not worried about that anymore, they are worried about jobs. that's not true. immigrants want them to know and the word get those vibe froms our party and our candidate. it is a feel that people

have about who wants to be in this country. host: teresa is a legal immigrant. good morning. caller: good morning. i have been in this country for 12 years. i did my master's and then my ph.d. h-1t now i'm working with a visa. i have tried to apply to a waiver. they keep on refusing me. i have my ph.d. i'm becoming so frustrated. it is easier to become an illegal immigrant in this country. it sends a message out there.

don't go through the line. it is so frustrating you try to do the right thing. they take somebody's social security number. there are americans in this country that do not want to work. it is easier to do things the illegal way. they should find a way to help people that want to go through the right system to be legal immigrants. i have spent almost $20,000 and that is from private loans. you are taking loans and you cannot pay for it. it is beneficial to be an illegal immigrant. host: thank you, teresa.

guest: it is an excellent comment and a great example of what is wrong with our system. to follow legal channels has become more difficult then to find a way of going around the rules. the rules and laws do not work. they are too bureaucratic. you have to go through four different agencies. four months go by and the harvest is over. the system is not helping her. our quotas for that segment of immigration are too low. we need to increase those. we have companies that are

building research and development centers in canada. it is a great example of why we have to fix the legal immigration system to prevent the undocumented immigration system. host: carlos gutierrez is the co-founder of the super pacs, as been for immigration reform. we have some comments on twitter. this is from rick. tj says -- host: velo tweets in. diana from tampa. caller: thank you for having me

. i believe he is from cuba. my husband came pair over 30 years ago from cuba. he is not seen his daughters or grandchildren. he pays $4 every year -- $400 every year just to stay in the united states. we need to open up to cuba. the economy there has been such a struggle. we should be more empathetic to the spanish people. most of these companies that hire undocumented workers, most are republicans. i think they play on the other

side of the fence. they wanted to immigration but the pay them $5 or $6 an hour. i believe the mexicans that want to work hard, we should have them stay here and try to get their citizenship. thank you. guest: if i could say to the caller, when i came from cuba, we are immigrants and political refugees. one thing i remember about the country was help welcoming it was. i felt that people wanted me to succeed and people would celebrate my success. i did not speak a word of english.

but people were welcoming. in the case of the undocumented workers, there is a bigger argument here, i think it is a time for national reconciliation. these folks across the border 10, 15 years ago or five years ago. some people come through airlines. "go north and you can find a job." they found employers that were willing to hire them. they had to be hired. the legal processes do not work very well. some do not work at all. they have been making our produce and growing our fruits

and vegetables and milling are lawns -- mowing our lawns doing all these things we take for granted. there is something unfair about putting all the burden on the one individual who came over to do just one thing and that is to work. i think we have to come to grips with that. there is a matter of national character and honor that says we have to admit we have a problem. we are all accountable. let's work together to get this fixed. i would like to think history will look back and say that was a moment of great character for the u.s. and not a blemish on our history because we do not

have a great history when it comes to low-skilled immigration or new immigrants. it happens to be hispanic immigrants. go back 50, 60 years ago. we went through the chinese exclusion act. every group has faced the problem. the power of immigration has always won out. belief in our system. this idea that immigrants will change our language and take over our cultural is a lack of confidence in the american magic. people come to the u.s. and want to be american. they want to be part of the

mainstream. we only speak one language. chinese companies can read our plans but we cannot read therirs. we should have more faith in american society and this incredible experiment that has been american democracy. people come here and become americans. that is our great advantage. host: a headline in "national journal." host: looking at a chart from " national journal."

131 of the house republicans represent districts that are mostly white. republicans have the majority of those. the numbers diminish. is there any incentive to vote for immigration reform? guest: yes, absolutely. if we are the party of growth and the party of prosperity and free markets and individual opportunities, then we must be the party of immigration. there is a strategic inconsistency of being the free- market party and individual opportunity and upward mobility

and all the great things our free-market system can do and not be the party of immigration. so immigration is an important economic imperative. i am pleased to see it members like paul ryan, who is a leader. people will follow john mccain and marco rubio and others. it is the right thing for our country and the right thing for our economy. republicans have -- should have more interest in getting this reform passed than democrats. i think we won it for all the right reasons and that is because we want the hispanic votes.

it is the right policy. host: we must do better at has a different opinion on twitter. ann in florida. good morning. caller: good morning. i think you're the most wonderful example of immigration in our country. i am a little nervous. i am a republican. i was concerned about the speech by marco rubio. how do you think our current administration president is going to follow in forcing identification? i'm in florida.

how the enforcement by the republican platform that they unveiled will be addressed in terms of following our border rules and that sort of thing. thank you. guest: thank you. that is a good question. senator rubio issued a press release talking about that aspect of it. the president did not identify border triggers before we allow legalized undocumented workers to apply for a green card if they choose to do so. the subject of a security is the essential. no country in the world needs

to be apologetic for one to secure its borders and to know who is in the country. that is a right of every sovereign country. our situation is complex. it is the borders and the airports. a lot of it is a system of the physical border but also being able to track who enters at an airport, the visa expired but they have not left. we have a lot more technology than the last time we tried this. we can do things like provide the private sector with verification tools that enable you to get a match on a social security number, and we should

put that technology to work. it is the border and the airports and verify who is in the country and applying for work. we have the technology to do it. we to ensure we get this done in a way that makes sense for our system. that will help us in many years if we have that kind of system. president obama promised he would do this in his first year. he did not. the worry is we go at this again and it doesn't work. the president gets all the political points. the republicans get all the political blame. a political victory but not a

strategic victory for the country. we need to make this a national purpose of policy and not an exercise in politics. i hope we'll keep our eye on that. that is going to be the big challenge. host: we have an idea from jbc. al in rhode island, hi, al. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. the american people want immigration but they want legal immigration. we do not one no favoritism for anybody. you talk about language.

the chinese came here. it is not right. this president is so far off the ball. we will bring 11 million more people into this country when we don't put those people to work first? i did not think that is right. we have other problems that are more important. we're flooding this country with unskilled workers. guest: the only reason on skilled workers come to this country is because there is unskilled work that needs to be done that frankly americans do not want to do anymore. go back decades, there was a time when you worked on the

family farm. there was a time somebody would be a truck driver. that is life and my kids will do better. americans are very different today and their skill levels is higher. these are job openings that the economy has. if we went back 20 years, we would not have grown as fast as we have grown. as part of this national reconciliation and being big about this, these undocumented workers have made a tremendous contribution to our economy. people like to talk about fairness. all of a sudden we say, w

get out. i think we have to do the right thing for the brand equity of the u.s. host: did you want to respond to a tweet about getting the border part done first? guest: until we fix our laws, we will not care rid of undocumented immigration or illegal immigration. the reason we have illegal immigration is because we do not have legal processes to be able to bring people in. it is like our laws do not

recognize that immigration is an annual affair. we need immigrants every single year. our work force has to be growing every single year. unless we have that understanding and to make up for that reality through our laws, we are going to have a dysfunctional system. i agree with the caller. border security and being able to decide who comes into the country is very much our obligation and right. unless we fix our laws, congress is making it difficult to stop immigration. host: mike is our last call.

caller: i am a democrat and african american in this country. the congressman that yelled 'you lied" to the president -- i wonder if he tells the truth. 11 million illegal immigrants staying in this country. will they qualify for obamacare? when you say immigrants, she know the people are talking about illegal immigrants. they are not talking about legal immigrants. guest: that is a good point. part of this issue is not just what you do about the 11 million undocumented.

they are here and working and have families. the point about obamacare -- the president talked about entitlements if they choose to get in line and apply for a green card and wait that time and they can have access to in, programs as the law demands today. that means they would not have obamacare. if they do, that changes the economic equation dramatically. a profound strategic statement. people come to our country today to work. they come to do what all immigrants have wanted to do.

they want to contribute and stay out of trouble and they want access to this incredible society that we have. many people go to european countries because of the entitlement systems. they go for the wrong reasons. i would hate to think future immigrants come to the u.s. for our entitlements. it has never been that way. they come here to work. they know their children will do better than they will. they also want to dream. we want to be careful about what kind of a country we are. people are going for the entitlements and not the work opportunity. host: secretary carlos

gutierrez, thank you for joining us this morning. up next we will speak with paul krugman. later on, robert draper on his piece on libya. first a news update. >> there is an update on the situation in egypt. mohammed elbaradei is appealing to the government to hold talks calling for a national dialogue involving the military. the appeal follows a warning yesterday that the country's political turmoil could cause the country to collapse. 60 people are dead over the past week. a government watchdog says the u.s. taxpayer stands to lose $27

billion from the financial bailout. the report says the estimate is higher because of increased losses for the treasury department on sales of shares of the buildup companies. care bill giffords will be appearing this morning at the senate judiciary. -- hearing on gun violence. her husband is one of the scheduled witnesses. they launched americans for responsible solutions on the second anniversary of the tucson shootings. also testifying is wayne lapierre. live coverage at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span radio or watch the hearing on c-span.

those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. [video clip] >> georgia o'keeffe was really the first well-known woman artist. even in the 1970's there was no one who could match her. she became a feminist icon. i grew up under that influence. my first recognition of her work was not as an art historian but as a budding feminist whose attention was drawn to the fabulous paintings. and i lived in colorado. people talk about this woman. it was the way she lived. from 1929 forward, she came to new mexico for months out of the year if the living apart from her husband in the 1930's and 1940's. she continued to do this for over 20 years until her husband died. then she moved to new mexico full-time. so she likes of our imagination

as an artist, because she was famous so long and so famous, so young. second, she lived the life she wanted. she was a very disciplined woman. i think that stands out as women made choices even prove to the -- even through to the 1970's they made choices that accommodate family and other pursuits in their lives. georgia o'keeffe had one driving passion in her life and it was art. >> the georgia o'keeffe museum in santa fe, just one of the places you will see this weekend, looking behind the scenes at the history and literary life of santa fe. saturday and noon eastern on c-span2. sunday at 5:00 on american history tea partytv on c-span3. -- american history tv. host: our next guest is paul

krugman. his book, "end this depression now!," is out in paper broke. you have been criticized for not wearing enough about the de bt. fair?at the guest: i am right. there are some long-term issues about how we'll pay for what we want from the federal government. people think about where we're going to be in 2025 and we have to make some choices. the debt situation is fairly stable for the next 10 years or so. host: here is the headline from

"politico." are you alone on this? guest: people think nobody has those views and nobody will except it. larry summers, more and woartiny colleague at princeton, all those people have said more last the same thing. we only talk to people who confirm our prejudices and that is destructive. host: erskine bowles was interviewed in "forbes." guest: no. at the moment we have almost 4

million people who have been out of work for almost a year. we have a depressed economy. the most important thing is to get this economy moving. host: is there a difference between a national economy and a business dealing with debt? guest: if you have record low havewing costs -- we slashed investments. we have put pothole repairs on hold. if a family cuts in spending, it may be has the same in come. if we all cut at the same time,

our incomes go down. it is the job of the government not to cut spending at a time when the economy is weak. is : paul krugman's book "end this depression now!" here are the numbers to call. we have a question from twitter. guest: yeah. a recession is when you are going down. a depression is when you're down. we were still in the depths of the great depression. still very high unemployment. the normal aspirin you take

fright headache -- you do need other policies. we're suffering from depression economics. depression is the right word for what we are experiencing. to paul ryanisten on the dangers of debt. [video clip] >> we cannot keep that up. will run the risk of a debt crisis. that is when our finances collapse, our economy stalls. we have to convince the country to change course. host: are weak in danger of collapse? -- are weak in danger of collapse?

guest: the one trillion dollar deficit is the result of a depressed economy. you do not want the government to try to balance the budget. the united states has its own currency. we print the money. suppose investors get down on the united states. that would help the exports. the story by paul ryan doesn't make sense. he is concerned about the deficit but will not accept one penny to deal with it. all he wants to do is to cut spending. host: why is there a focus on the debt? a lot of stories from the past

years if you do a google search. guest: the number is bigger, $1 trillion. that gets people's attention. we like to think things through. politicians like to go with a gut feeling. people are trying to use the deficit to kill social security and medicare. it is a misplaced focus. this always happens when you have they depressed economy. host: steve in phoenix. caller: good morning. my question has a lot to do with the last guy, mr. gutierrez.

i work in a trucking company. my question, with the constant pressure to the point of the legal pressures for wages, how do raise your wages? guest: that is a whole other issue. the effects of illegal immigration on the economy are complicated. there are disputes about how much it affects the wages. it's part of the problem of inequality. i do not think it is central to what is going on right now.

we need to have more demand and more sales. at the margin, those will be jobs for americans. let's work on immigration policy. host: frank from florida. caller: your proponent of keynesian economics. lord kanes the treasurer of england. i wonder if you read his paper, the consequences of a declining population. guest: this is stupid. i should not say that. he wrote some foolish stuff when he was 18 years old.

that has nothing to do with his economic analysis. lots of bad people have had good economic ideas. that is what we are talking about. host: what about his economic philosophy appealed to you? guest: it is a model of how the world works that works. if you came into this four years ago, you said things that were out rages in this town. the fed printing money will not cause inflation. all of that has come true. you have a theory that works. i don't care what he thought when he was a teenager.

caller: good morning. i want to ask how many years he has been an economic so-called expert and what he thinks about the reagan administration having the economy doing so well because he lowered the taxes and w. bush -- is that the right one? the second bush president had a welt economy. we were doing well. we didn't have such high unemployment. guest: i was in the reagan administration sort of. i was on the staff of the economic advisers.

my domestic counterpart was larry summers. reagan had a good economic recovery. the federal reserve cut the rates. he provided a pretty big stimulus with tax cuts and military spending. the bush economy was not a good economy. bill clinton raised rates on the rich. we had the best economy we have had since the 1960's. host: choices made internally, the impact. guest: well short, it was a smaller plan. they got cold feet. they turned too conventional.

they cannot pass much of anything except the payroll tax cuts. it just went away. host: how long before know what succeeded or failed? guest: people are still arguing about the 1930's. too soon to tell. i think we have a tremendous amount of evidence. we have been running experiments across the world. get austerity politics in britain and spain. we know that they do not worke. we have a good idea that it is hard to make it work at these levels. fears of inflation or grossly exaggerated.

host: stock about what paul krugman has done. he is a columnist for "the new york times." he's the author or editor of 20 books. he is a nobel prize winner in economics. its most recent book is "end this depression now!." hi, janet. caller: i was wondering -- the financial crisis -- had we done more stimulus would it be possible if interest rates may have risen and depressed a recovery in the housing market. guest: interest rates would be somewhat higher if we were doing

better. interest rates are low because people did not want to borrow. particularly on the housing market. the biggest thing holding back the housing market is the weak job market. a lot of young people are still living with their parents, on able to move out on their own because they don't have jobs. it would be a stronger economy across the board. host: we encourage people to reach out through social media. you can send a short video. caller: i was hoping you could

tout the pros and cons of supply side versus trickle-down economics. guest: there is a notion if you cut taxes on rich people that it benefits everybody. if we had 90% tax rates, i might have sympathy for that point of view. 13% or 14%, like the guy who lost the race for president. there is no evidence. we did very well in the 1990's when tax rates were raised. people still believe it. host: here's a question on twitter.

guest: that is right. he should be angry at what happened during the bush years. we had a strong economy in the middle years of the last decade. that is a time you should be paying down debt. then when the economy strengthened, a complete disregard. they didn't carry in paying down the debt. if they had done what they should have done, there were be less debt. host: chris is from houston. caller: i have two quick questions.

-- a fan of my first question -- bernanke has come on record talking about the quantitative easing. he is basically printing money out of thin air. he claims he has not seen any signs of inflation yet and once he does he will pull back. economics 101. the more money you print, the more inflation. the top tax rate in russia -- in the u.s. went up to 39.6%. there is a flat tax in russia of 13%.

better than.s. do rusher in taxes? -- russia. guest: this has been tested. "money printing will cause inflation" and it keeps not happening. don't tell me the numbers are skewed. at one point the say people have the wrong model. if you're not willing to say that, i cannot deal with that. that is something that is turning into something that is irrational. i don't think the measure of a country's success is how low the top tax rate is. would you rather live in russia

or sweden? i would take sweden. we can argue. if you like to have lower tax rates at the top, tell me which social programs you want to cut. there is no evidence in our history that tax rates at the level we have are a big problem for the economy. host: comment on twitter with a question. guest: right now they are small. it's not clear there are any negatives. barring more is a good thing -- borrowing more is a good thing. that will hurt future growth,

keep people unemployed for a long time. they will never get started on their careers. right now you have borrowing costs so low. it is minimal and maybe negative cost to borrowing. host: paul krugman is a columnist for time"the new york times." caller: i am a pretty simple guiy. trillions.rowing gillian' when does it all end? if our gross national income is

$10 trillion a year, should we try to spend less than that? we wiped out the entire tax increase bailing out hurricane sandy. how can we afford this? we cannot afford this. no more vacations this year. we have to deal with this. guest: look how it plays out. that is what is slashing in a depressed economy does. you're raising unemployment. in what kind of bizarre view of the world is a way to deal with the debt problem to have people quit their jobs? i will turn hot when the economy

is stronger -- i will turn h awk. our income is closely related to spending. if all we tried to do is cut spending, that's not helping anybody. host: our guest has written more than 200 papers and professional journals. froms a question for you one of our followers on twitter . be sequestration cuts? guest: in general, spending cuts right now is a bad thing. we're talking about as a critique -- pretty sick if it hit it this sequestration goes through. -- pretty significant hit it sequestration goes

through. the funny thing about republicans opposed to the idea of government spending, and thus it is military. so since they are in fact what a nice keynesian, i think it will back down, and they should. host: what would you see it replaced with? guest: at the moment, nothing. i think say we should not be cutting spending wildly and a plumber rate is this high. let's talk about it year 2020 how we will help pay the bills, but not cutting spending while the economy is still in a depression. host: speaking of politics, your recent column. use a republicans have a problem. -- you say republicans have a problem.

election, however, that did not work. guest: this was a much closer -- this is unabashed on the part of obama and many democrats. they are unabashed about saying we will not put policies that continue to transfer income upwards to the top 1%, and certainly they were not punished. they all stared at any hint that you were going to talk about inequality in the way government policies have been reinforcing in the quality with porcelpoiso. republicans are acknowledgement they have an image problem, although they're not willing to change policies. host: the annapolis. independent calller. -- indianapolis, in theindiana.

caller: as far as raising revenue, what do you think of a small token tax on the stock market? as far as money, have you looked at the imf paper that came out over the summer called "chicago plan revisited"? guest: the second part, no. is a tax on the stock market. i am for it. we have too much turning in the financial markets. the financial markets are too here triggered, and you then raise additional revenue, although i do not think it is terribly important policy. europeans are putting in a mild

one. so let's add that to the arsenal of policies we used to calm down the volatile economy we have developed. host: brian and baltimore on the democrat line. -- in baltimore. caller: i have been mystified that a possible problem that may or may not happen 15 years out has been managing to dominate the conversation. here is a question for you. it has been my suspicion the gop has been that successful in getting people to drink the kool-aid on this is to reduce the size of government and government spending. by talking about that in deficit it gets to the real corgoal. i was wondering if you had an idea of what the real goal is of the gop? guest: that is not even protect

relief hidden. since the reagan years republicans have talked about the strategy of start of the beast. cut taxes and then use this as a way to push for cuts in government programs. now they are claiming to be deeply concerned about the deficit, but the deficits were part of the plan. this is exactly -- this financial crisis is what they were working towards or their perception of a fiscal crisis. if you look at the actual plans, with a paul ryan's plan they are deficit increasing plans. plan areaul ryan's deficit-increasing plans. they are not enough to offset the tax cuts. all the rest of the alleged improvement on the deficit comes from additional revenue, but

there will not tell you what. additional spending cuts but they will not tell you what. it is very clear the whole purpose is to use the anxiety over the debt to slash medicare, social security, and the deficit is just an excuse for doing that. host: does it matter who holds the u.s. that? "washington post" article of china's holdings of u.s. debt. guest: it matters almost not at all. we have domestic investors. do we think they would refuse to sell the bonds out of patriotism? come on. on the other hand, the we think the chinese will be ashley irrational? actually the chinese own a lot of our debt and may strengthen our position. if you owe someone $10,000, you

have a problem. it's he owes you -- if you owe him $10 million, he has a problem. host: we just got a glimpse of the national debt clock. 16 trillion and counting. is there a number that frightens you? guest: it would have to be a lot bigger. it would have to beat japan size. size.japa's they just announced a new set of stimulus measures. -- be japan's size. advanced countries that borrow in their own currencies that have stable governments, which i think we do still, have enormous running room. nothing that i see happening in the next decade makes me worry at all about that. host: dr. krugman has a recent

article called "japan stepped that you can find at nytimes.com. caller: i want to thank you for your position and your daily fights in your column. it has been inspirational. how would you fashioned the stimulus program? what specifics would you put in it for president obama to unveil in the state of the union message? guest: well, there is a question of what to reveal and what is politically possible, and then there is in between what is politically possible and what is unlikely to happen. what is possible is not getting any stimulus past. ideal i would like to see a bunch of things. i would like to see more

investment in medium-term public infrastructure projects. energy, transportation, fixing the water systems is a big unmet need. we could get a lot of pretty quick boost to the economy simply by providing aid to state and local governments to reverse the spending cuts they have made. we hired hundreds of thousands -- rehire the laid off school teachers. resume the mundane public investment projects like fixing potholes that have been put on ice because state budgets are strapped. you can get a boost to the economy. given that the fact the economy is improving would get as a long way back. host: here is another short video sent to us by social media. caller: hello. looking forward to reading one of your books.

the social stability piece of the world rests largely upon the u.s. economy. can we pay our debt that? if not, what happens then? guest: people are putting money on the line and buying bonds do not think the united states has a problem here yen we have problems. there are lots of things i would worry about with the united states. i worry about the extent -- increasing extremism of the political parties. i worry about the environment and all kinds of things, but the reality -- reliability of the u.s. debt, not at all. i am worried about the social and political stability of the world. a large part of europe that is depressioneriencing great levels of unemployment. and how long can we sustain u stable democratic system when 60 percent of the young people are out of work?

that is the concern in europe right now. host: the twitter question touches on this. also, are there any models in europe that are succeeding? guest: if you look at sweden has handled this very well. the excess of welfare state is the problem. the biggest welfare state in the world and has driven through the crisis beautifully. my favorite, the little economy that could, iceland. they were supposed to turn into a smoking whole, but they broke their rules. they did not bail out the bankers. they were willing to let the currency to value. they were willing to let there be controls. it has a lower and a plumber rate than we do right now. -- unemployment rate than we do right now.

britain is interesting. when cameron came in in 2010 there was wild approval for here. he praised cameron for brushing aside a economists who say it would produce another recession. guess what? austerity policies produced another recession. the government has provided us with demonstrations that keynesian are right and other guys are wrong. richards is on the line. go ahead. caller: the other day i was watching "morning joe." the council of foreign economic relations was on with you. from someone who knows very little about economics but read your column is held frustration -- frustrating it must be to

have someone tell you you've been right all along but we cannot believe you because you may be wrong sunday. guest: if i would have given to frustration, i would have dropped this column gig month ago. we have a set of views that have dominated the discourse. a lot of people clinging to those used despite having been wrong at every stage. news about inflation, the effects of deficits on interest rates. and they are still treated as orthodox. you are not considered serious unless you adhere to those views, despite the fact they have been totally wrong. i think the law of damage is breaking a little bit. i can see there is a slight movement in the policy discourse for what i regard as the same position. host: on facebook reno in -- iwrites

guest: i am a little bit, call me soft. i think the obama administration really did misjudge in late 2009 and early 2010, i think they have gotten it. the conversations i have had, it shows they have come around. they are paralyzed without a solution. they have a solid wall of opposition in the house. unless there is a total upset in the 2013 midterms, that is not going to change. the answer is, nothing much. we have to hope the economy will heal largely by itself because we will not get a lot of positive help from washington. the most we can hope for is that

they do not do active damage. host: next calller from north dakota. we're at in north dakota? -- where at in north dakota? caller: south central. two questions. i am 75 years old. my wife and i are retired. we were small fibers -- b farmers all our life. we paid into so security all of our life. they are causing as well thousand $600 per year for medicare. why should that break medicare? i do not understand that. why should that break the bank? another thing like sandy, all

the billions state appropriated. it can burn down the house everything, pictures, what ever they own. there was nothing mentioned of government help ever. you know what they say? they should have had insurance. don't you think those people should have had insurance. they say there are no jobs in this country. that is an outright lie. south dakota alone, the state, looking for 11,000 welders. why don't these young college kids take up field like that? they want to sit in nice air- conditioning. this is really frustrating. i am sorry to feel that way, but i would like your answers. guest: to pieces i can deal with.

-- two pieces. i do not know that is the right number, but it is a lot. what you need to bear in mind is medicare is for elderly people, many of whom have very expensive medical needs. $12,000 or so is about what the cost of the insurance policy for a family in prime working years costs. you cannot insure an elderly couple for that amount of money. we have a funny system in which the private insurance industry gets to cover people in relatively good health, but the expense of cases are already covered by the government. medicare is actually cheaper than private insurance. that is a misunderstanding of the issue. jobs is an interesting thing. the job story is that there is a

region of the united states that does have full employment. it is north dakota, south dakota, and a little bit of the surrounding area, neb., i think. you have to have a skill. the combined population is only a little bit larger than the population of brooklyn. there are not a lot of jobs. the whole rest of the country has high unemployment. hyatt applied to the south, west, northeast. with the exception of basically the shale-driven boom states, there are not a lot of job opportunities out there, and we cannot all move to the upper great plains to find employment. danger of there a running out of money to fund

entitlement programs, social security, medicare, and when does the crunch time again? guest: we have an aging population, first of all. that speeds up the cost of those programs. also, we have seen health-care costs rise pretty fast in the past. if nothing is done about that, that becomes a problem. if you look at the budget and took to a straight line projection of the cost of the programs and a straight line projection of revenue, something will have to give. some combination of revenue increases and money-saving measures, whether that is ways to squeeze down the cost of health care, possibly cuts in benefits. the question rarely asked is why we have to make that decision about how we're going to do that right now? if your theory is in the year 2030 -- at some future date we will have to cut benefits, why is committing to cut in future

benefits the solution to the problem? it is predetermining how we're going to do it. it has nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. this is a very strange -- people have taken the reality of possible problems a decade from now and turn that into a case of urgent action now, which is not. -- which it is not. the one is talking about bolstering the programs. you can always cut benefits. you can always do that later on. the idea that it somehow you did not cut social security benefits now that you could never cut them in the future, why? i have seen no rational argument for that. host: you can see back in 1912, and then projected out 20 years

into the future. is not going to happen. we talk about steins lock. those numbers will not happen. -- stein's law. why is it a budget year reached in the year 2013 has to specify how will stop in the year 2013? host: john from florida is a democrat. caller: can you will hear me? first of all, of a like to make a comment and then a question. since i have not called in many months, please allow me to make a brief comment and then question. mr. krugman, i want to thank you for what you do. i am a man on a very limited budget taking care of my mother down here who has been diagnosed with dementia. i try to every monday and friday when your column appears, i tried to get to my new york

plans to buy -- van to buy "the new york times." that is how important i think your column is in trying to assess what is going on in the world. very few people of as great ideas. could you please comment on their role of corporate money and the massive amounts of money in washington and connect that with the demise and very tangible squeeze on middle-class families over the past 30 years? guest: corporate money and money of wealthy individuals, there are lots of just individual billionaires', and it does distort the political process. it means there is a lot of lobbying. i personally am always impressed by the influence of the

revolving door. the extent to which legislators, public officials are always -- it cannot help it, they always think about what to do when i leave office? ther really big money comes from interest groups, and they are more likely to give you one of those jobs if they have been nice -- if you've been nice to them while in office. the corporate money was pretty heavily betting on one guy, and it was the other guy who won, and i think that is important. i would like to see a lot of changes in campaign finance and much stricter rules on going through the revolving door. even so, the situation is not hopeless. we're still a democracy, flawed democracy, but you can have all the big money going behind a big money guy for president and have the other guy win, and that tells you there's still hope for america.

host: phil on twitter wants to know if you have ever owned a business. -- bill. guest: no, of course not. maybe this is the unpopular thing to say, but history shows being a good businessman is not necessarily a qualification for running the economy. those are very different things. probably the best businessman was a fellow named herbie herbert -- probably the best businessman as president was a fellow named herbert hoover. it comes back to the conversation of business spending versus government spending. a business, when general electric is deciding about what will happen when it lays off a bunch of workers, it they did not have to worry if it will cut its own sales. the government has to worry about that all the time. host: richard in cincinnati on the independent line. caller: i have a question for

you. i hear all the time about trillions of dollars sitting in offshore accounts by u.s. corporations. if you had your way, how would you try to get this money back into the united states and reinvest it in our economy? guest: do not know how much corporations are holding an offshore accounts. corporations are sitting on a couple of trillion dollars of cash they are not investing, but you know, it is not for the most part because they are evil. some of them are, but that is not the point. they are sitting on it because of a weak economy. if the office buildings are not fully occupied, it does not work. what you want in order to get the money back to work is to get the economy the jumpstart it needs to get corporations are reason to invest in america. host: paul krugman, author of

the books "and this depression this repression now." -- depression now. coming next, robert draper. >> more economic news this hour, the commerce department says the u.s. economy shrank from october through december for the first time since the recession ended. hurt by the biggest cuts in defense spending in 40 years. also, hurt by fewer exports and sluggish growth in company stockpiles. the economy contracted at an annual rate of 0.1% in the fourth quarter, a sharp slowdown from the 3.1% growth rate from july to september. the surprise contraction could raise fears about the economy's ability to handle tax increases that took effect in january and booming spending cuts. meanwhile, a private survey

shows u.s. businesses increased hiring in january compared with a revised december reading. adp said employers added 192,000 jobs. the increase in hiring occurred after congress and the obama administration reached an agreement on january 1, avoiding sharp tax increases and across the board government spending cuts. the chairman of the senate judiciary committee sent in his prepared statement that closing loopholes in the background check system for gun purchases will not run firearm owners said mmm rights to own a gun and is a matter of common sense. after the killing of student and staffers in connecticut it is time to stop recriminations on the subject. the senator says the background checks would mean a strengthening by law anyone buying a gun from a licensed dealer must have a background check infected killers and

people with mental problems barred from purchases. the senate judiciary committee hearing on guns begins it 10:00 eastern time. here is live on c-span radio or watch live on c-span. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> it is clear to be a good bill on civil rights. can you get him to agree to come on with you? or is he going to try to keep from passing it? think we have to get a whip out. >> lbj and chief congressional aide larry o'brien strategizing. here it sunday on c-span radio. >> one cannot count the times that americans say we're the

best country in the world. what are marvelously stupid thing to say. of all the countries in the world, everyone thinks their country is pretty good. country is pretty good. why do we have to believe that we are the best? what does that mean? and why do we have to assert it? all of the time? and what does it mean to other people who consume it? american products the war around the world, information products the world, information products go around the world , and we teach them not to like us. gratuitously.

author, activist, and transgendered africa founder -- transafrica founder randall robinson live sunday at noon eastern. host: on wednesdays at this time we put a spotlight on magazines. this morning we are looking at the february issue of "national geographic." our guest, robert draper, wrote the story. what would surprise us about modern-day libya? guest: the biggest surprise would be that libya is not by any means hostile towards us. i have travelled in my capacity writing for national geographic to a lot of arab countries where we are not necessarily like, but this is one country where they will come up to you and say

welcome to libya. when you answer from america, the response is we love america. tell your president think you, he saved us. libyans are anxious to join the 21st century after being under the dictator for 42 years. -- tell your president thank you. host: that is superimposed over photographs of an ancient ruins. the photographs by your colleague shows a lot of greco roman ruins. guest: this goes away to where they are now. they have this glorious past and was a critical part of the roman empire. in the second third century a.d. emperors wasman empire libyan. when you travel through those

places that are memorialized by mike colleague who was a great photographer, you see -- you get a sense of a very thriving libya back then, but also a libya very much connected to the world across the mediterranean. that was severed by muammar gaddafi. host: 4 10,000 years the location attracted colonizers as a population of each wave of newcomers is slowly forge the libyan identity. today evidence of other cultures and history, a greek theaters and italian cafes is stamped on this predominantly-arab country. how has it retained arab identity? guest: there is a problem with the last part of your question, because when muammar gaddafi became the leader of libya in 1969, he said about erasing

history or rather reconfiguring it to suit his own means. among the things he did was preached to libyans that the west kept libya under its boot heel. part of this was true, but essentially what he was trying to do is sever connections to the world across the mediterranean, with one exception, he built a pipeline from libya to sicily. beyond that in and figured it ways, a very profound sweeping ways to move libya away from the rest of the world. host: we're seeing a picture of children in libya. how much do children know about the greco roman influences or roots about other cultures? compare that to adults and what they grew apart like. guest: they are literally

rewriting school books. the first thing they did with the books was erased -- muammar gaddafi erased all traces of the greco roman past. insist all children wound -- learn from the green book. now they're learning what in many ways their parents were not allowed to learn, was that libya does have an identity. that's basically is the question they are struggling with now. who are we? if we are not what he says we were, then what are we, and how does that shaped the way we view and connect with the rest of the world? host: if you'd like to join the conversation and talk to robert draper here are the numbers to call. democrats 202-585, 3002.

002. where are these ruins and where are they? guest: some are to the west and east of tripoli. the one to the west are the ruins that depict how central libya was to the roman empire. this includes a glorious amphitheater that mussolini was so impressed with that when the italians renovated it and then performed there, mussolini himself showed up, and the libyans were ordered to clap so hard that some of their hands blood. all the way to the east is the greek stronghold. and it includes a 2500 year old temple of zeus.

what you can see as you walked through there ruins, and of -- evidence of recognition that this was once a great agricultural center. so what you see in other words was a libya that was not only glorious, architecturally in the thriving commercially but home to the greek empire and the roman empire as well. host: going to the phones in honolulu to hear from dan. caller: i am very familiar with that region. i would like to hear about recent libya. maybe the past 60-70 years. i want to hear about the libyan hero. i think libya could be strategic

of not only america but the west as well. i am not sure. thank you for national geographic to be very popular -- positive about libya. they cannot find where the money is. i am not sure if that is out of your expertise, but i like to hear your thoughts. guest: a few things about that. you mentioned the way in which muammar gaddafi was a cut the crap. his legacy still continues insofar as there are children and other family members that are still at large. there are still fermenting instability in a country that does not have the government will institutions necessary to enforce things there. with respect to democracy, there has not been of democratic

tradition in libya. they are really having to learn on the fly how to do democracy. the government institutions are to some degree filled with muammar gaddafi holdovers. i know this because they were following me around at one point. they put george and died under house arrest and asked us to stop doing reporting is because of the questions i was asking in the pictures george was taking. at the same time what is clear to me is the people there are eager to embrace democracy. people are very aware, particularly in the wake of the tragedy and balsam -- involving ambassador stevens, that libya is a muslim country. it is not an extremist country. it has a rich muslim tradition going back to the seventh century a.d.. when i talk to the even so-

called radical clerics who have been jailed what they would imagine as a government model for them, another country that would be as likely to emulate, they said kuwait. it is not somalia or some other country that is roiling with tensions. the problem unfortunately is is so unstable that extremists can cross the border. it is a porous border. host: kenneth in the south carolina. -- is in south carolina. caller: i wanted to speak with mr. draper and talk about the african influence. it seems like many times we leave that completely out of the picture in the fact that you were talking about things that happened in the second century

a.d. and the likes when there's century goes to hundred b.c. and being one of the top trade routes in the world. so i would like for you to talk about that, and does that appear in your article? guest: of course it does. preceding the arrival, proceeding the greco roman empires, there were centuries and centuries of occupations and others. when he became leader in 1969, at first he was embracing a pan- arab model for libya and was petitioning to have an entirely new map of libya that would basically be all one part of the arab world. then he reversed field and began embracing more of an african

model, so it is a distinctly african country. it does not take time at all to see the deeply mediterranean influence today, whether it is in the clothes they wear or food they eat. now, there are other parts of libya. it is a big country. as you get further down south, you obviously gets more subs- saharan country that endemic to african countries. host: how significant has the influence of the location been? we talked about the mediterranean. how crucial is the location to this? guest: it has been crucial in so far as it has been a crucial trade route.

this is a trade route that makes it very advantageous in terms of positioning to europe. it also has today some terrific potential because it is so close to countries like greece and italy. again, for their trade potential. the problem is no one is quite sure whether they could depend economically on a country that now has such a battle institutions. host: chris in maryland on the democrat line. go right ahead. caller: i wanted to make a comment. and i remember when i was about 15 or 16 years old. i'm 47 now. i had written a book called the green book. and this book essentially he referenced the colonialism and imperialism and concludes in the

book that people of african descent will eventually and take their rightful place as leaders of the world as it once did in the past. it seems to me that when they paint this picture of muammar gaddafi, it is so skewed and they never speak of his role in investing and public think people of african descent. my question to the author is, if he was such an oppressive dictator, how is it then that libya had one of the highest literacy rates in africa, and libya also had the highest gdp of every -- of any african nation? >> sure. you're absolutely right.

libya had one of the highest literacy rates in africa. arrival.ceded gadhafi's it was well before he took over. he did increase that. the question, and not too short trip any kind of education is what kind of education were the libyans given? your referenced the green book. the green book does say that libyans had been subjugated by western oppressors, but also has a lot of crazy stuff about this kind of leaderless government that muammar gaddafi claims he was having, when in fact you used the word oppressed. he was placing thousands and thousands of people in prison, killing people. there were brutal murders of anyone who dared to say anything

negative about him, even question him. you mentioned as well the way he uplifted african people, but i would suggest that even that is skewed. a classic case of that is what happened just before and the beginning of the revolution when he was trying to pit smaller towns in an effort to split constituency and have for their fight against brother. what he was do is go to towns, for example the third biggest city in libya. it is a small village that has been largely dependent for its income for a long time. it consists primarily of individual of darker skins who have set-saharan descendant. what he was doing is basically teaching them to be hateful toward misratah.

he said if you fight in the revolution, it will be yours. he did this in a variety of places throughout libya. it was not as if he was presenting a unified picture. he was doing this basically to supplement his own power rather than to empower others. host: what was the legacy of divisions he created in the communities? guest: it persists. because they invaded misratah, they came in and literally raped and pillaged. there were shocked and horrified, because they had been that their neighbors. they had gone to school with them and work with them. they were so horrified by this that they basically raised its

end of actuated it. now they all live in shelters. no one is permitted to go back home until there is some sort of reconciliation process. in a lot of ways the saw that is representative of the divisions that exist throughout the country. host: robert draper talking national peace iiece in geographic. author of books, including one that came out last year "do not ask what we do inside the house of representatives." he writes for "the new york times magazine" and "gq." our next calller on the independent line from georgia. caller: egyptian culture was

definitely a part of libya. the only reason why they're called arabs is because of the religion of islam. when i hear people say the egyptians or arabs, that is political. they are not arabs. there african people mixed in with greeks and romans, but they are not arabs. that is all i have to say. host: gary rights in to ask whether libyans consider themselves arabs or africans? guest: they call themselves libyans. they do not identify and a ticket with the contents or the mediterranean region. the calller is absolutely right they do not call themselves arabs. further to the extent that libyan our arab at all it is because of the influence of the

muslims who came in in the seventh century a.d. again, you can eyeball it when you are there in terms of culture is islamic that blends very completely with african culture. among the examples of that is the southwest of libya on the border of tunisia. it was our berber town. the african influence of the culture represented could not be more obvious. host: john up next in virginia on the democrat line. caller: i have a couple of comments, and then one question. it has to do with your attitude towards ghadafi, which seems very one-sided. you have anything good you could say about him?

the nato bombing killed ultimately, if you include all of the allied movement, over 30,000 people ended up dying. if you look at the fall of libya and what he did, some people have our dimension it has the best health-care system and africa and the best literacy. people throughout africa said they did support ghadafi and did not want to bomb. libya has accepted sharing resources with others, unlike other regions like nigeria. there were given shelter and food. he supported them as brothers when they came in. not only that, but before the u.s. had basically control over most of the communications systems and africa, he put up

several billion dollars for satellite systems so that africans would not have to pay the rental fees. the africans paid much less for communications across the country. i think you're giving a very one-sided picture of it. can you tell us what you think he did that was good and any criticism of the u.s. bombing? guest: there are a couple of good things i can say. one was the promotion of women in this society. he was very pronounced about that. women under him were promoted under -- promoted to higher ranks. the notion of him having the female body guards who were very lives but crotty experts is something that people caricatured, but the reality is women were not subjugated under him. although he did not to really care for the west and inflection of culture throughout libya, he did not destroy it.

archeologists were very grateful that he did not have the temple of zeus knocked down. he did, however, feel very threatened by the roman statue and ordered it thrown away into the rubble but was rescued eat it out by archeologists. i want the calller to know this is not the pontificating. i spent a libya -- a month in libya and all i did was talk to libyans. what was openly expressed, and i emphasize the word open because you could not be open during the regime, was the content that people had, that libyans had for ghadafi, and frankly it's a shame they have had that they allowed this guy to be their leader for so long and to cut them off from the rest of the world.

as for the rest -- i do not have a personal opinion about the bombing of libya. i would instead prefer to rely on the opinions of libya's i spoke to. there can't be it, and i saw the evidence of the pierre did you do not often find an example of post-9/11 of americans engaging and a conflict overseas assisting in any sort of conflict, and this part of the world being grateful for it, but in fact they are. exhibit a was up to the tragedy involving the killing of ambassador stevens. -- was after the tragedy involving the killing of ambassador stevens. we saw the protests of many people expressing their deep disapproval that something like this had taken place. host: carroll asks -- darrell

asks -- guest: i was there before his assassination. when i was there, you could walk freely around libya. i spent a week doing precisely nd tripolien gaunghazi a and elsewhere. last week every embassy issued warnings and please do any westerners that were there to say get out now. i think they're concerned about a particular attack they have intelligence on. they have elements for tourism. they did not have stability. that is the most important element of all. host: picture in "national geographic." hotels like the marriott will

reopen. stevens to work, florida, republican. stephen stuart. caller: i saw the building along the coast and look like it was under construction with the huge blocks. i was wondering what interrupted it? it looks like it was not completed. i was curious what interrupted the construction? guest: the revolution did. those hotels were actually under construction, and many of those things you're looking at our hotels, as well as a few office buildings. sone were put up by the of muammar gaddafi and was considered the heir apparent and was trying to improve his own image. there was sufficient stability

in tripoli that a lot of hotels were instructed -- interest it. they still are, but now they're waiting. at this moment the people who have control of the weaponry are not the law but the militias. what they are are basically the local folks, mainly young men who had never shot a gun before much less fought in the revolution, but began to kill soldiers, take their weapons and learn on the fly how to do this. now that he is gone, they are loath to hand over guns to some government that they do not altogether trust. so is the militias who have the powers in a lot of ways, and that creates a climate of instability that makes tourism and economic development very

dicey right now. host: article in "national geographic." guest: george and i went there. it is about a mile off the main road, completely and guarded. it has all of these bunkers filled with rpgs and anti-tank missiles. they are there for anyone who wants to take them. it is just lying around. host: independent and georgia. go ahead. caller: i wanted to echo the sentiments of the few of the other callers. your guest is definitely a bit skewed, but it is to be expected.

a lot of the perspective from africa is skewed. the comments i had is on the pinpoint bombing is incredible when you look at the pinpoint bombing destroying whole city, among other places in libya. did you deal with the libyan- islamic fighting group -- i read in a lot of reports that they have been funded it often on a the muammar gaddafi and wallace of. host: before we let you go, what are your feelings about gaddafi? caller: i sink like a lot of leaders in countries, there was good and bad. i believe personally that the good outweigh the bad.

in terms of the literacy rate, i know your author refers to what libyans were learning, but as far as the literacy rate, the health-care, the amount of economic success in the country i think is a testament of that. not only that, if you ask a lot of the other africans throughout the continent, they would basically give the same sentiment i am giving as well. host: what do you think about the internal revolution that took place in the country? caller: based on what i have seen, i believe a lot of it definitely was thanks towards the government, which you have in many government l l i believe it sent out assault and i know there were a lot of false

reports about the government bombing tripoli, which turned out to be false. it turned out peaceful, but it was carried on by violent people. host: let's go to our guest because we are running low on time and he talked to the people who fought in the revolution, one gentleman who lost a son who work for the police force. guest: that is right, the police chief of mizrahta. he worked among the policeman flunkies. he was one himself. then he worked side-by-side with the revolutionaries, including people who we had jailed previously, and they were among his best fighters. i want to reiterate to the calller that you can believe me or not believe me if you want, but i did not go to libya w