rob reiner. [applause] our thanks to rob reiner, director, screenwriter, political activist for sharing his thoughts on politics and the entertainment industry. i think we can agree it was a fantastic discussion. want to thank our audience is here television, the internet, and the radio. from the commonwealth club of california, the place where you are in the know, thank you. [applause] >> >>, author and historian harold holzer on the resurgence of the popularity of abraham lincoln.

a house hearing on the effectiveness of the e verify program. after that, a discussion about the impact of automatic spending cuts on the u.s. economy. oregon senator ron wyden, the new chairman of the senate energy committee, will discuss energy issues facing the u.s., his agenda for the committee, and the president stresses for leading the epa and the interior department. sunday at 10:00 and 6:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> at one point, steinbeck had to write a small paragraph that said basically, people are asking what happened with c harley. when he says week, it is feeling and john. -- elaine and john. somebody must've said, where is

charley? he wrote, people have asked what happened to him, and when my lady joined me in seattle, he took this third position. he signed it. obviously, that never. in the book -- came up in the book. editors went in and expunged elaine from the west coast, almost 30 days of -- of her presence with john on the west coast. there were not and cannot. they were not studying america. there were on a vacation. >> build -- bill steigerwald argues that john steinbeck to summoning liberties that the novel cannot be considered a nonfiction. sunday at 8:00 on c-span2 n/a -- c-span's "q + a."

>> this is about 30 minutes. host: harold holzer joins us to talk about president abraham lincoln's influence on modern politics. he is a scholar and author. he is also a fellow at the new- york historical society. thank you for being on the program. why does it seem like president lincoln is more popular among political leaders and the general public than he was in the past? guest: the spin doctor is at work in a major way. the movie has been a huge commercial success aside from the critical acclaim. it seemed to have lifted all boats as far as the discussion and scholarship. there was a screening at the courthouse that was widely publicized. the senate had a screening four or five weeks ago i was lucky enough to attend.

that was an amazing experience. host: lincoln seems to be invoked by political leaders were often. what was it about his administration that people in the senate and white house are looking for? what kind of lessons and patterns were set up by the lincoln administration that still hold up today? guest: this is not a new phenomenon. if you go back to the 19th century, republicans and democrats have been feuding over who has the best claim on lincoln's legacy. 1912 is when the bipartisan battle began. fdr, clinton, bush. it is extraordinary. i think they all believe lincoln showed them the ability to succeed in a crisis. lincoln faced the worst crisis in american history and a recalcitrant congress, which is not a new phenomenon.

despite all that, he managed to steer us to preserving the union and ending slavery. he is a model of success under pressure and success that unfortunately came with a great cost. host: harold holzer is a scholar and the author of "how abraham lincoln ended slavery in america." if you want to get involved in our conversation, here are the numbers. you can also reach out and touch us via social media. harold holzer, regarding president lincoln, how would he handle things like sequestration and the partisan battles going on between different houses of congress and between congress and the white

house? guest: however bad the blue and red combination is, blue and gray is worse. partisanship led to shooting wars in the 1850's in kansas and ultimately throughout the country. for all acknowledgement that he steered us through crisis, he was unable to achieve results in a fully national congress. he had just as much trouble as president obama is having. the only way the 13th amendment passed is because only no. congressmen and senators voted for it. the rest were no longer participating in congress. it was still hard to get the 2/3 vote. it is hard to know the answer. what lincoln did has become the model for presidents in the

modern age. that is to go directly to the people. he did not make speeches or hold press conferences. he did not have television opportunities. he did issue statements, called public letters, trying to get the country behind his agenda. this is another thing we need to keep in mind. abraham lincoln did not achieve his greatest successes through the legislative process. he did them by presidential order, both good and questionable. the emancipation proclamation was a military order by the commander in chief. there are limitations on presidential orders later ratified by congress. the run-up to the beginning of the civil war, calling at troops, allocating funds, he did while congress was not in session. maybe that is the lesson. wait until congress is out and then do your thing. host: harold holzer spent four decades studying president

lincoln. we will be talking about what his political legacy means in modern times. we will take some calls for harold holzer. the first one comes from paul in indiana on the line for independents. caller: this is a great topic for discussion. it seems we often hear lincoln was against slavery and a racist. the two should not be completed. slavery is a very ancient institution. hammurabi dealt with slavery. racism that ended with auschwitz is a much more recent phenomenon. lincoln got in on the tail end of slavery. it did not end in china until

1954. he got in on the scientific spurt that twisted western thought into eugenics and that type of thing. lincoln could still be a racist who still hate the institution of slavery. guest: indianapolis is a great lincoln town with a wonderful collection there. lincoln was always anti-slavery. he was naturally anti-slavery. he could not bear the sight of people being sold at auction, something he witnessed as a young man. he philosophically opposed the notion that someone that makes bread is not entitled to earning the money from making the bread, that he had to give

the yield of his efforts to another person, a master. he felt that went back to the tenants of the declaration of independence. the matter of racism and race is tricky. lincoln was a man of the mid- 19th century. he grew up in all white communities. he was exposed to very few african-americans in his lifetime. through the years when he met frederick douglass and other models for new order, he developed a different attitude. he changed over his lifetime. look at the statements between 1858 and 1865, his last year live. in 1858, he said he would never countenance the idea of black and white people marion or black people serving on juries. by 1865, he was calling for the rights of african-americans to vote, the first president to do

so. it was an evolutionary process. he was not revolutionary by 2013 terms. judging by the standards of the 1860's, he was a rather enlightened white person. host: jerry is also calling from indianapolis on the line for independents. caller: the caller was talking about slavery. i have been collecting history about lincoln since i was 21 years old. i have so much information about him. the people was treated so bad. lincoln stepped in and got them out of the situation they was in. we need to come together. the president is trying to do the best he can for the world coming together. i love lincoln.

he is a good man. he did so much for the country. host: we're going to move on to ron in pontiac, ill. caller: i am wondering about the makeup of the supreme court at the time of the dred scott decision. who was appointed by democrats? were there any abolitionists on the supreme court, that kind of thing? guest: that is before my time of expertise. taney lived on the southern shore of maryland. i think there were predominately democratic nominees. there were no abolitionists on the supreme court in 1857. it was a majority declaring people of color could never be

citizens of the united states and slaves could be transported anywhere. lincoln changed that by appointing republicans to the supreme court when he took office. host: what are some of the main qualities of lincoln that leaders talk about? are there any mistaken assumptions being made by leaders in congress or at the white house about president lincoln and his legacy? guest: the battle goes on about whether he truly belongs to the republican party or his core values suggest today he would be a clinton and obama democrat. that argument is there. lincoln was definitely a spender and a taxer. i do not think that has been accepted by the vast majority of political leaders or historians. his policy was if america was fighting a war, we have to pay for it as quickly as possible. there were bonds, but there was also an income tax that was

widely objected to. president bush said to me that abraham lincoln used the kind of executive power without congressional approval but was not popular in his own era but has been verified by the test of time. he said my wiretapping and all that is very lincoln-esque. president obama sees the inspirational nature of lincoln and ethos of living up to the unchallenged. -- the unfinished work that challenges america. work of america. republicans and democrats can always find something in lincoln to inspire them. better they should emulate lincoln than coolidge.

host: you bring up president bush. president george w. bush was at the white house during the tribute to lincoln that took place on february 11, 2005. we will show our viewers a bit of president bush talking about his admiration for president lincoln. [video clip] >> the civil war was decided on the battlefield. the larger fight for america's soul was waged with lincoln's words. he set himself squarely against the culture that held some human beings were not intended by their maker for freedom. as president, he acted in the conviction that holding the union together was the only way to hold america to the founding promise of freedom and equality for all. that is why in my judgment, he was america's greatest president.

host: harold holzer, you were involved in that event at the white house in 2005. talk to us about the prospective and context under which this speech was made and what the relationship was between president george w. bush and president abraham lincoln. guest: we had a program which to run the country for five or six years called "lincoln seen and heard." the portraits and speeches were recited by the great sam waterston. we did it at the bush library. according to white house sources, president bush called president bush and said you have to do this at the white house. it was the most incredible day of my life rehearsing at the white house. we used the map room as the staging area and then performed for members of the cabinet, senate, president, and first lady.

it was interesting watching the reaction, what they reacted to and what they did not. every time the might of the union is being addressed, every time he is issuing a presidential order, president bush was deeply engaged. when lincoln was making anti- were statements during the mexican war, saying war is folly and ends in showers of blood, there was a more glum reaction. it is interesting to watch presidents react to lincoln. host: go ahead, rick. on our line for democrats. caller: george bush was talking about lincoln being the greatest president.

he will probably go down in history as being the worst. what lincoln did had nothing to do with being a democrat or republican. it had everything to do with being a true christian. he was a true christian. when lincoln freed the slaves, the republican party became the democratic party. with the civil rights act, the democratic party became the republican party. we have races of people that have still carried on their ancestors beliefs. the bible says the sons will pay for the fathers' mistakes. host: talk to us about lincoln's faith and how that worked into his administration. guest: abraham lincoln was a man of faith, but he was also a

man of politics. he was a partisan politician. his goal was to create a republican party that would succeed national and to reward republicans with patronage jobs to make sure the party grew and expanded nationally. he came from a very partisan era. as a man of faith, he was an interesting progression as well. he never belonged to a church. he was accused in his earliest political days of being a skeptic. he had to answer that charge during one of his legislative campaigns and assure people he was a believer. he never did join the church, although he attended. he was very literate in the bible. he read it. he knew it. he studied it. biblical phrases enter his speeches. as he goes on in political life, he becomes more deeply religious.

it is almost as if it was impossible for him to accept personal responsibility for 750,000 deaths in the united states to save the union and end slavery. it is almost too much for one man to bear. he shares the burden with god. if god wishes that every drop of blood shall be repaid by another. the judgment of the lord is true and righteous. that is where he begins saying. he puts it off on divine will. host: jeremiah is calling from michigan on the line for republicans. caller: i am not versed in this era of history much. what strikes me is you mentioned how he had to suspend habeas corpus, raise armies, all of these things without congress in session.

it seems the way the 13 colonies formed united states, they were sovereign states and should have the right to secede. it is a voluntary union. his actions on that point set the stage for modern politics where we have presidential powers. correct me if i am wrong. the entire executive branch, the president and wage war in pakistan without congressional approval or declaration of war. we have come to this point because of lincoln's example. if the system was not designed for the president to be able to make war on states in the union, that is kind of the dark side of abraham lincoln in american politics.

guest: his administration and use of executive power certainly signaled a shift in presidential authority in crisis. it was a model created by adrian linkedin to meet an emergency contingency. aham lincoln to meet an emergency contingency. he would disagree with you about whether the union and compact of states was voluntary. as he put it, a husband and wife may divorce, but the state cannot. the union is perpetual. that is what he based his presidential campaign on. that is what he based his presidency on. eventually, congressional approval did come for all of the allocations for war and the raising of troops. abraham lincoln met an unprecedented emergency. without a response, we might have balkanized countries on this continent. he preserved the union for a

better day. fundamentally, he would say the union was perpetual and deserved to be fought for. host: the caller said he was not well versed in this era. if he wants to become were well versed, the caller would do well to try and find one of the many books authored by harold holzer, author and scholar. his most recent "help abraham lincoln ended slavery in america." next up is alex on the line for independents. alex? caller: i am 26. i do not know much about lincoln. i called because i wanted to thank him for having some kind of freedom of speech, on the freedom of slavery.

he changed the times of all caucasian americans being in charge at that time. host: regarding the issue of slavery, we have a tweet. harold holzer. guest: history tells the story. abraham lincoln's election in 1860, what he said and was set for him in the campaign is all that the republican party opposed was the spread of slavery. keeping slavery where it was protected by constitution and placing it on what lincoln called the ultimate course of extinction. just the idea of preventing new pro-slavery is senators was enough to drive the southern states into confederacy

determined to fight for slavery. it is important what is being said. people say the war was over states' rights versus presidential power. they are truly missing the point. the point is brought home nicely in the steven spielberg movie. the book is a young adult companion book to the movie. lincoln did the emancipation proclamation by executive order. he fought a heroic and questionable battle to get the votes rounded up to end slavery through the 13th amendment. host: harold holzer was also a script consultant for the steven spielberg movie "lincoln." anthony is our next caller on the line for democrats. caller: think you for spending

time with us. i commend you for your body of work. hopefully you can comment on this statement. i believe it was abraham lincoln who stated he had the confederacy in front of him and the bankers behind him. for his nation, he feared the bankers. could you connect that to what we're up against now? we have this military- industrial complex invading impoverished nations. do we not have to fear the more than we do these nations we are attacking and waging war on? this might not be something you would want to comment on. i hope you would in clarify mr. lincoln's statement. guest: among the countless apocryphal quotes attributed to lincoln are a body in which he fears big business interests. as far as i know, that is not

something he wrote. lincoln was a supremely confident political leader. people who met him were astonished at how confident and almost egotistical he was. some people expected to be able to dominate him by virtue of education or experience. they were often astonished at the strength he showed in their meetings and the dominance he should. -- showed. i do not think he feared bankers or the confederacy. he was determined to preserve american democracy and majority rule by whatever means he could reach for.

host: president obama referenced to president lincoln and at the national prayer breakfast. he talked about being sworn in with one hand on the lincoln bible and how lincoln found strength during his presidency. [video clip] >> to see this country torn apart and his citizens waging a war that pitted brother against brother, that was as heavy a burden as any president will ever have to bear. we know lincoln visited troops and wounded. he honored vets. as the toll mounted week after week, you can see in the lines of his face the toll the war cost him. but he did not break even as he had to bury his son. he did not break as he struggled to overcome melancholy and despair.

he did not break. we know he found solace in scripture. he could knowledge his own doubts. he was humbled in the faith of the lord. that allowed him to become a better leader. host: why do you suppose the president used this reference to president lincoln during the national prayer breakfast? guest: he is under enormous pressure as all presidents are. remembering lincoln's strength and reliance on prayer, but also remembering his political leadership skills make a good combination.

i hope for any president of any party, it strengthens their resolve to bear these almost unimaginable burdens. when lincoln was asked about one of the border states, he said, i would like to have god on my side, but i must have kentucky. a man of faith but a man of political reality also. host: the next call comes from michigan on the line for independents. caller: i am wondering if abraham lincoln continued to be a whig after the founding of the republican party. did he continue to be as much of a whig as zachary taylor? guest: their arguments made he was very whiggish. he did make several important speeches during his presidency. his unprecedented use of executive power during the civil war quickly took him out

of the whig realm. he embraced the cause and idea of federal authority to stop the spread of authority. that made him a republican. host: john is calling from massachusetts on the line for republicans. the question or comment for harold holzer? caller: good morning. i come from a point of view where my least favorite president is lincoln. i sit along with the opinions on lincoln. one of my heroes was andrew

spooner who was more into- slavery than lincoln. -- anti-slavery way before lincoln. i think the war was a result of economic issues because of the cotton gin and things of that nature. the slavery issue was solved around the world without killing 800,000 americans. i think lincoln is a prime example of government being overrun. i think this lincoln propaganda for the most hated man of the century, and rightly so when 800,000 americans were killed in the slavery war. -- the civil war. the slavery issue was solved from a world without this kind of death.

host: john, we will leave it there. harold holzer, go ahead. guest: there has been a robust anti-lincoln tradition that insists the war was fought for in cities reasons that have nothing to do with slavery and had everything to do with the economy and vague notions of economic dominance there were going to be imposed by industrialists in the north. history does not bear this out. history bears out lincoln really desired to see this union of states continued, for majority rule to continue, and for slavery to be eradicated. this idea he used power for the sake of power, i think it is absurd.

to show how far we have come thanks in part to lincoln, the bible that president obama has taken two oaths on, it was not really lincoln's bible. it was one they scurried around to find on inauguration day. it was the bible used in the supreme court. it was read every morning in court. the bible president obama took his oath on is the bible that roger taney relied on to say that african-americans should never be citizens. host: how was lincoln viewed by the press at that time? what do modern presidents learn from that experience? guest: he was an extremely controversial figure. it was a 50/50 split. lincoln only got 40% of the

popular vote. he was ridiculed by the press. he was lampooned. he was caricatured. at the same time, he had a cadre of people that adored him. by 1864, he puts together a majority of northern voters. in the instance of the 13th amendment, he uses all of that power and good will. we hear sally field say you are the most loved man in america. he was the most hated, but he was also the most loved. we will be screening the spielberg movie at the hotel where the lincoln family estate in the 10 days running up to the first inauguration.

it is very historic and evocative. i guess they have not forgiven him for running out on the bill. host: we're going to go to benjamin from rhode island on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. i am very inspired and happy you are going to have such discourse and take questions this morning. you listen to someone like ken burns and get the impression lincoln was reluctant to sign the emancipation proclamation. yet you listen to someone like chomsky and get the impression that his real cause was about the mill worker. he was very dedicated to their cause. i am wondering about your take and analysis on that. what was lincoln's purpose?

guest: he was dedicated to the idea of the mill worker owning the mill. he put it slightly differently. the idea upward mobility is what informed his anti-slavery. i take issue about what he said about him being reluctant to sign the emancipation proclamation. the cabinet was composed of more radical abolitionist who insisted he table it until there was a union victory. the only reluctance he had of signing it in 1863 was that his hand was so sore from shaking hundreds of hands at a new year's day reception that he wanted to wait until he could massage it back to normalcy so his signature and will not look tremulous. he said his whole soul was in

it. i believe him. host: david is on the line for republicans. caller: could lincoln have avoided the civil war by requiring federal minimum wage for all workers? the slaves would have been paid. there would not have been any were necessary. eventually, they could be owners of the mill and such if they had done that. that is my question. guest: that is a new one. that is a good one. slave power was deeply entrenched. slavery was not only about the subjugation of human beings. it was also about economics. slaves were property. they were human property. in the eyes of owners, there were less than human property. they represented the biggest economic silo in the entire

southern economy. there was no way lincoln could say you should pay these people because they were owned and clothes and fed by their owners. there was no way to compromise and end slavery in the 19th century until the tug had to come. time to have a cliff, a fiscal cliff or slavery cliff where you say this cannot go on. the greatest presidents came to that cliff and did not let us fall over. host: tell us about the event taking place today and who else will be there today. guest: steve from this network will be an interlocutor after the screening of the movie. some elected officials from the

district, some television folks from other networks will not mention. it should be a nice crowd. we will see the film. i bet most of the people coming have seen it twice or more. then we will have a discussion. host: harold holzer, thanks for being on the program. now we want to take a look at >> a house divided against itself cannot stand. [applause] i believe this government cannot endure permanent half slave, half free. i do not expect the union to be

dissolved. i do not expect the house to fall. i do expect it will cease to be divided. it will become all one thing or all the other, either the opponents of slavery shall arrest the further spread of it and the public mind one of that in the course of altman distinction, or it will be pushed forward until it becomes lawful in all states, old as well as new, north as well as south. >> you can always find more about our 16th president, including c-span2 house re- enactment of the lincoln- douglas debates on line at the c-span video library. >> tomorrow and "washington journal," will rahn and sabrina siddiqui discussed the debates over the automatic budget cuts and how it affects americans' views towards government. alison young will talk about her

recent article on security in labs at the center for disease control and prevention that could pose bioterror threats. then the bicentennial of the women's suffrage march in washington, d.c.. "washington journal" live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> next, a house hearing on the effectiveness of the e verify program. after that, a discussion about the automatic spending cuts on the u.s. economy. then a house hearing on the federal aviation administration budget and operations. >> on wednesday, a house judiciary subcommittee hearing focused on the u.s. citizenship and immigration services -- immigration service's e verify program. this tool allows employers to determine the immigration status of newly hired workers.

currently over four hundred 30,000 american employers voluntarily use e-verify. the hearing included a demonstration and how to use the e-verify program. this is 90 minutes. >> good afternoon. this is a hearing and titled how e-verify works and how it benefits american employers and workers. welcome to all of our witnesses. on behalf of all of us, i apologize that you're waiting on us. we had votes. it is unavoidable. this committee will come to order. without objection, the chair is allowed to declare recesses. we welcome all of our witnesses in the interest of time and because you have been waiting on us, i'm going to make my statement part of the record so that we can get to your

testimony quicker. with that, i am going to recognize the ranking member, the gentle lady from california. >> i will also make my statement part of the record and simply note e-verify can only work we reform the immigration system otherwise. we're just finding out how dysfunctional it is, otherwise. that is one issue. i am concerned about remedies. and hoping the committee can deal with that. i will ask unanimous consent to put my statement in the record. >> without objection. i am grateful to the gentle lady for helping expedite this. i'm going to introduce all of the witnesses and briefly give your biography and we will recognize you from left to recognize you from left to right