it is the tension between the roles of the chain of command can take to change the environment, and that we are all adults and we can make choices. we are having a hard time with that balance. we have to reduce the number of overall incidents. i do not know. i think some of the problem is on college campuses, as well. we are transparent and we have a challenge of getting some numbers comparable period 18 to 25-year-old is a different demographic. we have to take steps to alter this dynamic. >> our time draws short, i will take advantage of your being here to ask you one of the questions that always most intrigued me. it is the stuff of famous movies and novels and plays. though, rarely actual

occurrences in actual trials. can you describe the acute dilemma that occurs, morally and legally, when a subordinate is ordered to do something by a superior that is manifestly illegal, sometimes in a dramatic circumstance with a prisoner or someone else? explain a bit about the moral and legal conflict that can exist when you are issued an illegal order. >> what is your responsibility, what is your role in terms of executing an order that is clearly illegal. sometimes, you exercise it at your peril. you better be sure the order you were given is in fact illegal. each of us has an obligation to follow the orders of the officers and those appointed over us. when i get an order from a commander, initially, my

presumption should be, that is a lawful order that was properly considered and executed and issued and i should do that. having said that, there are orders where you know they are clearly illegal. some of the prosecution we have seen over the last few years involved violations where, for example, in one case, there was a tension where a commission officer came back and said, i told you, no prisoners. what did you not understand? that is a clearly illegal order. you have to be able to take a prisoner if somebody is wounded and out of combat. they have to be able to have a detainee. what is my role as a soldier? i go back to the individual to say, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, can you tell me again what the order was? i want to be clear in my own mind that i understand what the officer expects me to do.

if i am satisfied it is illegal, i have the obligation to go above that individual and say, i received an illegal order. it does not have to be just the commander. it could be the inspector general, the judge advocate, somebody else, a different commander. you have an obligation to go forth and report that illegal order. you do not to say, the boss gave me that order so i am ok. as a superior, we have a standard where we should have known it is illegal. i have a duty to clarify that. >> thank you for your service to our country and thank you for the wonderful presentation this evening.

thank you very much. [applause] thank you, everyone. enjoy the evening. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] next a discussion on editorial cartoonists and how they per trade the universal health care law. after that, president obama and representative lee terry. after that, paying for health services. ladonday night on "first she passes away a year and half later.

julia tyler becomes the president second wife. >> she loved publicity. she posed as a model at a time when it was frowned upon. she was known as a rose of long island. she was bewitching. she bewitched john tyler. he married her. she loved being first lady. but it was julia tyler who ordered the marines band to .lay when the president appears it was also her who greeted guests on a raised form. it is almost as if she receded into a queenly role. >> we'll include your questions

and comments by phone, facebook, and twitter. monday night live on c-span and c-span 3, and c-span radio and c-span.org. the roosevelt house in new york recently hosted a discussion about editorial cartoons on efforts to pass universal health care in america. the university of rochester professor, theodore brown, takes a historical look at how are today's archway medicare in the 1960s and the debate over the 2010 health care law. this is just over an hour. >> good evening, everyone. i want to welcome you here. i want to thank the president who has been in extraordinary supporter of the program here at roosevelt house.

i want to thank her for her hard work and support. also the tisch illumination fund. it is an important addition to the new york community. this has served as a wonderful place for intellectual discussion and debate around a range of social policy issues. i'm excited they could be here with us tonight. when you walked down to the second floor and realize this is the place where fdr conceived the social safety net and you are a progressive, it makes you [laughter]

at that time, the affordable care act was in the stage of just being implemented. many were concerned that people did not understand what they were getting. they did not understand what they needed, but they were getting carried a lot of misinformation. despite the clinton health care reform debate many years before, people thought this was a new idea. they were not closed in on the long history of health care reform. i am a visual learner and fan of political cartoons. as i thought about my project, it seemed this would be a great way to tell the story of health reform and decided let's do it

over 100 years. this is not just about obamacare. i tossed the idea around with folks like the fdr and visiting fellow in many of the senior staff. those folks thought it was a good idea. i had cartoons i could show them and give them an idea of what this might look like. they help me identify our research assistant who helped catalog the cartoons and did not more work on the book and ended up being a co-author. -- did more work on the book and ended up being a co-author. i thought about who might help

me with the history of this project and i thought about my good colleague ted brown. i knew he had a history of telling the story of health reform, particularly in the early days, using political cartoons. he is a major contributor to this work. we could not have done this without him. my idea was to take the cartoons and put them out in chronological order. and maybe tell an annotation after each cartoon so people could understand. ted said we need to be storytellers here so we added the cartoons and a narrative. and a way to tell the story.

that, coupled with talking to other people doing books that are similar to this. one is doing a text on health and nutrition using political cartoons. i asked about her experience. like everything else in public health, this is a group project. she helped us link with a cartoonist group. the founder was intrigued with the idea. so they partnered with us and supplied most of the cartoons in the later part of the book. this book has 174 pages packed with cartoons.

9 of 27 cartoonists have won the pulitzer prize. the was amazing to get that kind of talent in this kind of book. you will hear from one of these amazing cartoonist later, clay bennett, who did the forward for the book. clay draws for the chattanooga times free press. thank you for the work you have done on that book. i want to bring up our first speaker who will talk about the history of health reform.

>> thank you for coming this evening. i am looking forward to telling you some of this history in a quick overview. obviously it is so rich and so painful at the same time that we can only get some glimpses of that. you can see by the way the cartoons will flow by that there are recurring themes as well as novel difficulties that arise with the times. it is put out by the american association for labor legislation which is an advocacy organization. the meaning of the cartoon is

clear. the endless work as much better protected than the american but that skimpy umbrella. and we should learn from our english compatriots to the american worker who was naturally taller and more robust isn't beaten down by the elements because of the lack of protection. health reform did quite well but then it ran into major problems. the first red scare came in the wake of the russian revolution. you will hear they became a familiar suspects. the red scare changed everything because now there was a read the

label to condemn the effort to create a uniform national health program. that label has been attached to it almost ever since -- bolshevik. by the 1930's, there was a left wing and a right wing. a liberal faction and a much more conservative faction. here they are in combat in the 1930's over a proposal for health reform introduced by a liberal democratic senator from new york who was important in the new deal and health reform. am i not projecting? .sually i have to watch out this cartoon is drawn by herbert block who have a career of more than 50 years drawing cartoons about issues and moments in the health reform debate.

both figures there are actually characters of real persons who were central in this battle. on the right, isaac and on the left, maurice fishbine. perhaps the most outspoken and negatively affected antagonist to health reform who coined some of the worst freeze is to characterize it. -- worst phrases to characterize it. we fast forward to the 1940's. now it is even more dangerous. in the late 1940's we have mccarthyism. they used images of the cold war to discredit but president truman and legislative allies tried to do. there is also samson. you know what happens to samson when his locks are short. he is napping not realizing the

headline in his lap. alizehears are labled soci d medicine. he is napping not realizing the headline in his lap. russia's aim to destroy america with a vehicle of health reform as a device to do that. as a result, i will combine and number of things in this one slide. the united states moved in the direction of some kind of national health coverage but it was bizarre. coverage through employment to collectively bargain arrangement provided by commercial insurance agencies.

the wind was taken out of the sales. government played a critical role. lots of people got health insurance instead through employment. what was great for employees and their families and terrible when those employees retired career because now they faced the increasing challenges of health care in their in their latter years. this became the moment when some very bright reform-minded person came up with the idea of medicare. we can't get universal health care insurance through in this political climate. maybe if we tug on people's heart strings and point out the objective needs of the elderly, we can get uniform health care for those over 65 to qualify for social security retirement. here is that ominous threat to politicians because the elderly and the best organized most likely to vote cohort in the population.

in the 1960's, battle over medicare rates. the familiar suspects were lined up. the american medical association was still playing a negative role. leaders of the civil-rights movement and the naacp knew that hospitals and other health care institutions were incredibly segregated. they were able to put pressure on the administration after theyedy's assassination.

were able to put pressure on the administration. it would have a ready ally to forced integration of hospitals. this was an important new political. political that was the general climate of the 1960's. a universal form of health insurance for an aged cohort that made it unique in the world. those who wanted to go further savas was the starting point and opponents of universalize version of medicare. by the 1970's, there were leaders like kennedy reflected there in what would have been the mayor of jimmy carter's cabinet.

-- mirror of jimmy carter's cabinet. for universal programs which proliferated during the 1970's. the was a program sponsored by the american medical association after its own likes. there have been won a few years ago. the question now was not whether we would get universal health reform but whether we would get a particular kind of it such as kennedy was advocating. then the bottom fell out. a major economic crisis in the 1970's. the oil embargo and now the worry was extending coverage to everyone that can -- extending coverage to everyone. how could we imagine a incurring more costs at that moment? carter began as a lukewarm supporter of health insurance and by the end of his administration, kennedy was challenging him for the nomination.

this is a parody of an ad on tv. what could be more horrific than to have teddy kennedy looking back, his bathroom mirror. the reagan era. there you can see why national reform did not do very well done and the 1980's. that was reagan's mantra. he tried to cut the safety net. he cut medicaid, food stamp programs. he tried to cut medicare. there was an important pushed back, he cannot get away with that. he implemented new mechanisms for prospective payment by drg's.

that meant a very important dynamic set in of cost shifting some of those covered by health insurance now had to take a heavier burden to make up for the lesser revenues coming from medicare. that meant health care premiums would shoot through the roof and employers were beginning to push back. people would have to do they get deeper into their pockets for the payments and coinsurance. it also forced a lot of people out of insurance so we had a dual problem which was the problem of the covered and the uncovered. another herb block cartoon. 33 million uninsured. those who were covered were

covered in a burdensome way. it made health reform an issue for the middle class and not just those who are more trouble at the bottom of of political spectrum. the bottom ofable atnerabbleal -- l the bottom of the spectrum. it led to clinton deciding health reform is a major issue. he ran on this on his platform. had great ambitions to health reform. hillary was the face of the commission but it ran into trouble. a lot of this fell on hillary on fairly. this cartoon is a visual parity on m.c. escher. as i look at it, the images of hillary trying to find her way through the tangle of health reform.

toing to pursue staircases nowhere. after this failure, there were attempts to do piecemeal reforms. rather important reforms but not universal. george w. bush had other things on his plate. some cynics pointed out that he suddenly got interested in medicare reform. arre form ofh a biz medicare freform.

the medicare modernization act of 2003 is a huge giveaway to big farming and so on. it treats medicare part b with its donna holt. -- donut hole. we will not get into that. that is what he did. at the national level, there was no return to clinton's aspirations until 2008. matt is another favorite and most recent recipient of the pulitzer prize. there is mccain given a life line into the arm being sucked dry by those leeches labeled the insurance industry and hmos. that's a workers perspective analytically accurate. but barack obama backed into health reform, too. he was out distant early in his primary campaign by hillary and even by john edwards.

so he had to catch up. by the time he was elected and have chief advisors standing next to him, he is acting very academically and talking about the bending down of the cost curve. the messaging is being drowned out by an ominous looking machine in the back, the great noise machine. confusion, socialism, so on. threatening phrases used to stop the road to reform. barack obama created some of his own problems. this is a very cynical cartoon

about barack obama. he obviously looks like neville chamberlain. this is appeasement to the republicans. and it takes the shape of an individual mandate. it had been a republican idea and maintained by the republicans through 2006 when it became the basis for reform of governor romney although he seems to have amnesia about that. this is anything but single payer. anything but medicare for all. the hope is that by moving in this direction and allowing commercial interest to play such a large role, he will appease the republicans and they will

support his efforts. of course none of this happen. our guest, clay bennett, created this cartoon. democrats were not acrobatically refined. and awkward.pt it looks like harry reid is not going to catch that health reform victim. the democrats did a lot of damage themselves by their failure to play the political game as it may have needed to be played. the end result is this -- that's what some people think of the affordable care act. it carries over our health care system with a little bit of

cosmetic change. but you know the expression. you can put lipstick on a pig. that is what the message is here. that is not the only problem. 26 states joined together to agree a lawsuit brought to the supreme court. it was very unclear how it would go. in reality, a lot of nervousness. that the court would hammer away at the foundation's as they were being constructed.

the outcome is very surprising. another wonderful cartoon. here you see the four liberal judges would justice roberts who ervative mathe consrvat jority and said the interstate commerce clause defense that the obama administration argued would not hold but then turned around and set we can't hold this -- if you don't buy health insurance, you have a penalty. president obama is looking on with curiosity. this is exactly the unpredictable outcome but it was an outcome that upheld the affordable care act. another decision made by the supreme court in late june of this past summer. the obama administration wants to extend health insurance coverage to something like 30

million people by providing federal funds to do much of the work in the first years. the obama administration broke into the affordable care act that is states did not agree to do that, there'll be certain penalties. -- the obama administration wrote into the affordable care act that it states did not agree to that, there would be certain penalties. saying that would be too punitive. they -- states could choose to accept the funds but they did not have to. it threw open the possibility

that many states will resist extending medicaid even if it is in their financial interests. the real policy is this one. came out in july 2012. by nick anderson -- that is the real policy of the red states dumping the patients who should have been covered by the affordable care act. under medicaid expansion instead of dumping them at the door of the emergency room which of course will have rebounding and cascade of facts negatively on the whole health financing arrangement and all of us. it is very poor policy. thank you. [applause] >> i want to warn you all that the iq level is about to

plummet. [laughter] i need some assistance here, i'm guessing. it's a pc. there we go. alright. thank you. my name is clay bennett. you can talk about monkeys but it's so much better to see them in the zoo. that is why i am here. i am an actual monkey. i actually draw editorial cartoons for a living. i was asked to give a presentation on local political cartoons in influencing policy and public opinion. -- on the role of political cartoons in influencing policy and public opinion.

that title presumes that cartoons can influence policy and public opinion. i am not sure that is the case. as much as i would like to think that we hold some great sway and can profoundly affect society, i think the jury is still out on that. if popular opinion is any indication that my own opinion is question about best. i will talk about how editorial cartoonists try to affect the public discourse. better yet, since i cannot speak for anyone but myself, i think i will limit my remarks to what i see my role as.

i not an expert on history or influence of the art form in general. but i am the world's foremost authority on me. [laughter] even though this book and this event is all about health care reform in america, i will be sharing cartoons on a range of issues. i could show you -- you guys are just slowing me down. i could show you work on my health care reform was needed in the first place. i could even show you cartoons about the obstacles and impediments in getting the reform passed. and i could follow those wite

more cartoons about the threats of repeal. -- with more cartoons about the threats of repeal. but i will not. i will not do any of that. what i will do is show you cartoons on many different topics. try to explain what motivates me as an editorial cartoonist. besides if you want to look at carton's about health care reform, buy the book. fair and professional journalism will always have a special place in my heart, but not in my work. after all, the very job description of an editorial cartoonist is to present an

opinion on a political issue or current event and to express that using humor, ritual, exaggeration, and mockery. -- ridicule, exaggeration, and mockery. [laughter] you guys are laughin at dead people bobbing in a pool. the editorial cartoons are not suppose to be even-handed. they are not supposed to be impartial and they are not supposed to be fair. which is fortunate for me because i am none of those things. i have been drawing cartoons for the "chattanooga times free press" over five years but have been in the business over 3 decades.

it is been a great time to be an editorial cartoonist. over that time, and yet there are 8 cans. you don't need to count. i have been able to force my opinion on the undeserving readers of 6 different newspapers in five different states. , iore moving to tennessee work for north carolina thomas two papers in florida, with a publication like the christian science monitor, a concentrated exclusively on national and international issues. it was a great job. a lot of my friends and

colleagues were surprised when i left. some wondered why i would want to move from a liberal city like boston to a conservative state like tennessee. growing up with in alabama, later in life i had a strange yearning to return to the region that left such lasting scar on my psyche. this is the irony of passing an english only law in tennessee. at its core, editorial cartooning is a-art form. form.a negative art

it is based on dissent and fueled by cartoonist's discontented alienation. so it was difficult for someone like me or to work up a righteous indignation in a city like boston where politicians are so progressive and public policy is so enlightened. tennessee has been a welcome relief from all of that. i found nothing like -- enlightened the mood like some lethal injection humor. i am figuring this crowd out. now that i live in tennessee, i am in a constant state of indignation. i'm so discontent and alienated, i do not know how i could be any happier. i knew it was going to be a great move but had no idea what kind of gold i would strike in tennessee. you have to love it.

i included as cartoon because a has more labels than any car to and i've ever drawn. included this cartoon because it has more labels than any cartoon i've ever drawn in my life. a little advice -- if you reach the point where you use [indiscernible] you have gone too far. but i digress. tennessee, a place where a man is measured by the caliber of his handgun and a woman is measured by the caliber of her hand gun. tennessee convicted a man for teaching evolution 87 years ago. and the same state that this

past year enacted a law that allows the teaching of a biblical alternatives to darwinism. so much for abolition. -- so much for evolution. you have to love a state that has major industrial interests like coal mining. we have -- nuclear power is big. no flies were killed in the produciton tion this cartoon. more recently, the hydraulic fracturing of oil and gas. this is one i've done in the last week on fracking. i feel sorry for the industry because of their name. fracking. these guys, if you could've come up with the more embarrassing name, i do not think he could

have done it. i think they need to change their names. how about gas holes? [laughter] it is just an idea. all then willing to do bidding of these industries. that is the sexiest woman i have in tennessee like the rest of the south, religion permeates every aspect of life. c from the chick

filet logo. i think you can see why am so taken with chattanooga. even though my readers may not pay me a lot of respect, if my mail is any indication, at least they are paying attention. i will show you what i mean. i brought some files here. this file is of hate mail. this is from the last several months. it but the cards, letters from -- it's a bunch of cards,

letters, people ranging from those who really hit me to those who really, really hate me. my favorites are the ones with a clip my cartoons out of the paper and they write messages all over it. it is kind of unabomber-esque but i suppose it does save them money on stationery. i dig the fact that they are into recycling. in my show i want to share -- this is the first one. let's take a look at this one. there is a laundry-list of mistakes that i have poor taste, and am tawdry, distasteful and offensive. but what gets my gaot is when he calls me a redneck. i have been called a red many

times. but a redneck? that is uncalled for. here is another one. this one is less diplomatic. he goes for the big guns, calling me a babykiller and antichrist. i don't know if i'm the antichrist but i kind of hope it was the antichrist. you have to have goals in life. i am fine with babykiller and antichrist, just don't calle me a redneck. these cartoons, i get them all the time and don't always contain elaborate messages. like this one, where a reader simply scrawled -- on my cartoon.

this is embarassing because that is one word. now, i don't want you to -- i don't want you to think that it's all about hate in chatanooga. i do get fan letters. i brought my file of fan letters. well, letter. a postcard. i don't know. is "you're not as stupid as you look" positive? i am setting the bar low. i wanted something in the file. this brings me to the favorite letter, a dramatization of the events.

this is neither the cartoon nor the reader. some time ago a reader clipped a cartoon out of the newspaper. this is hardly unusual. did was unusual is what he next. he took the cartoon and proceeded to use it in a way someone customarily uses paper in a restroom. when it was complete, he slipped it into an envelope and sent it to me, with some dna. talk about putting grunt into disgruntled. you can't do that with an email. can you?

it is gross but you have to give him points for commitment and as a cartoonist i have to respect he showed his feelings without words. this is the dialog that brought me back to the south. i love my readers, even those that don't love me. you see, as an editorial cartoonist, all you can hope for is a vigorous debate. the debate on chatanoooga borders on menacing. my wife may be concerned with the annual death threat but i

can only see that as the greatest compliment. as i wrap things up -- to who took umbrage, any conservatives who took offense at anything i've said or shown, i would say, no offense was intented but -- that is not true, some was intended. peacelogy -- i have a offering. i have something even the conservatives may appreciate. it's a cute puppy. didn't that make it all ok? thank you all very much. [applause] [laughter]

>> a puppy. thank you, very much. questionme ask you one and then we will go to the audience. are there questions in the audience first? you've been telling this for some time. what did you leave out of the toilet paper story? >> of the book? nothing. what you have to do is remove a

lot of the detail and nuance and get to the main themes a reader not familiar can grasp and weave it around an image. ther are areas of complexity that could not be captured in the limited space we have. with the basis of substantial reading. if people want to go forward we suggest reading the back of the book. they can read -- and continue on these issues. we haven't distorted the big themes but we haven't presented enough layers and complexities of a full historic account. >> you left out a lot of my cartoons. i had 14 in there but i knew of 10 more i'd like to see. >> we were under strict limits.

>> clay, what do you think -- you are thinking ahead. what are topics you may thing will be on this year -- >> i was talking earlier to a friend about liberal politics and how discouraging it is so slow. it took 100 years for health care but as the old saying goes the arc of history goes to justice and the issue that that best is gay rights. 30 years ago in college, everyone was closeted and now it is to the level where -- gay marriage is inevitable, gays being added to the civil rights bill. it is just a matter of when it will happen and i do believe, as naive as i may be that this

supreme court will be on the right side and -- the defense marriage act is history, into the ash heap of history and prop 8 will do the same. it just depends on how much the court wants to say. if they took this case on, either they can overturn the lower courts or use this as the foundation for a broad ruling and i hope they are thinking latter. for,is what i look monumental advance on gay rights. >> i have a different perspective and am

occupationally cynical and for all the achievements -- the health care act will have major problems. the affordable health care act was effecting incremental -- they continue with double digit inflation. and we are to benefit from electronic medical records. as they come in, expenses go up. i am worried about medicaid expansion. in the near future, i see that many of the hopes of the affordable care act -- there may be need to rethink that.

i am a strong advocate of single-payer medicare and it would not be a terrible outcome if this happened negatively so people could move in a single- payer direction. [applause] >> your thoughts on single- payer? >> i think obamacare -- i'm glad he embraced that, it is easy to say. it was not nearly radical enough. i am a fan of single payer and i am not a cynical -- i think it may be to the tetriment of those who stand in the way of medicaid expansion and i've seen where the legislature is against these and the governor is sweating it out. he understands it is 100%

covered and then 90% every year after that, 100,000 tennesseeans are added. those are people's lives the state could effect. i am hoping the pressure is to the right side. >> there is shattering in the ranks. ther is an elected governor -- they disagree. one is pragmatic and maybe -- i will abandon my cynicism. >> you will see your relatives or friends getting more because their state embraced it. i hope that direct comparison will lead to the right decision.

>> you have a question -- but i don't think you have to abandon the cynicism. the republican politicians will do it for the hospital loby. kasich has said he will go for medicaid expansion. my question to clay, have you a cartoon yet or is it in the cerebral stage about al gore's sale of current tv to al jazeera? >> look for any opportunity to slam liberals because it gives the illusion of objectivity. but, you know -- i haven't rushed to the drawing board on that issue, i must admit, and al gore is a prominent tennesseean. i am a big fan of al jazeera, they're a good news outlet. they do own a lot of oil but -- i don't know. i don't know as anyone who works for them -- a cartoonist could contact my syndicate.

>> one of our -- first fellows, john mcdunnough -- when he was involved in trying to promote the affordable care act and he argued that if we'd looked at the social security act, we'd be opposed. and that getting it started is what was important.

i wonder if you may comment on that. >> during the debate when republicans were talking about repealing obamacare? it was with the caveat, everything in play, the 26-year- old being on your insurance, the no caps. they weren't campaigning against that. they said they would replicate it. all the stuff that came to being is popular. the whole program will be more popular with the more benefits. >> there is a poll that supports that.

when people were asked about specific provision,s 75% were in favor. and when they were asked about obamacare, 55% negative. there is a split in people's understanding. ofhave to take advantage when there is a convergence of political force to go for the whole enchilada. because i don't think you can ammend your way from the affordable care act to something better. my sense is many of the cost- cutting provisions and those trying to prevent the rate of inflation will not work and when the burden of that is clear that the system is unsustainable, we

will have to think of a system more efficient and fairly organized and that is when we moved to a single-payer system. >> i wondered what your thoughts were on the possibility of the raising of the medicare age. >> the challenge is that it may leave people uncovered. and so you'd have to find a way to fill that hole and we have -- there were many people about lowering the medicare age and many people may retire early with their significant other becomes uncovered and the yare not elligible for medicare.

it actually -- the other thing is it costs again and the big thing is that it goes from one person to the other. system cost the whole more as those people move from an efficient -- from a medical and cost perspective, medicair to one more expensive. >> back there. >> i had two questions. instead of raising the medicare age, why not raise the contributions?

>> that is a great idea and i'd say, do the same for social security. >> you do pay -- you pay as long as you earn. >> that is what i'd change about social security, that you take out take out the tax. >> the other comment is, the oaffordable care act will cause the lower end of the econmic spectrum, they will rally around for the voting block? >> that is quite possible. >> the fact is -- i was a state health official twice and many costs -- they had these siloed events and the primary care so

states and those folks can be put in the medicaid program -- at the federal poverty level. that is based on how the programs are structured. those states see there is money to be found in those programs if they bring those people in. there is a comprehensive package for many people than some of the private insurance. the great way to bring down medicare costs is to cover

everyone from birth to the medicare program. >> one of the most important books on how th9s works is by bob starr. he invents the term -- "the protected public." those who don't want anything to change. why this may not play out is because it is not any one thing

but a set of layers. if you are covered under your employer you continue and -- have another set of consumers with different interests. so you cannot imagine a uniformed population because the affordable care act is many different things. >> the 49% won't rise up. if you think of them as the people who don't pay income tax, a lot of them don't realize they are part of the group. the tea party, is it in their economic interest to support the republican party? let's be greedy. your own pocketbook. if middle class americans -- looked at this they'd steer

clear of the republicans, but they don't. they still elect them a super- majority. as obama is elected, tennesse has a supermajority. the democrats don't have to show up. if they walk out, it doesn't matter. the republicans can do state business. surprising. >> are you more optimistic looking at vermont? >> that question -- by oliver fine. from the international health program. vermont is a state moving to single payer on the sate level.