called "pretty alice," you called her the most cunning, stealth, vicious, cold hearted instrument of evil that karl rove and the bush administration had. what are you referring to? >> i must have left out a couple of things. alice fisher. she is a very interesting person. we see some attention from senator 11 and that went away. cases and wasd criticized for their operations in the criminal division in 2001-2003 and went to work for chertoff. she is an extreme political operative. >> i don't want to she was a political hack. i say political hack. she then was up for appointment when alberto gonzalez was the attorney general of the united

states. i ran a file of senator levin. he said she was close to tom delay's defense team. b, she doesn't have a lot of -- didn't have a lot of experience trying cases. she was approached when she was in the criminal division of the justice department by the fbi. this is available through wickepia etcetera. she was part of that whole cover up. she was not a person not just an attorney. she was in a powerful position to be able to say no. torture, we'll let it be suppressed a bit. >> you plea bargained and what was the plea bargain, to her? criminals head of the

division. when we would be sitting there and we would see press conference. i would be back with my attorneys. she would put on this red dress and she would be quite dolled up and smiling before the camera. i said there is pretty alice. it became an inside joke. i incorporated that into the chapter pretty alice. the reason it was important for which i did not connect all these dogs until later during my present time and afterwards of the exact integral part of alice andjohn boehner majority leader and barry jackson worked for karl rove. happening up being she was criticized by tom levine. senator levin.

and the other part to it was she had been part of this cover up of torture. her appointment was basically in trouble. as everybody knew. at some point in time when john boehner in august called me issue -- and cut a deal with me. the majority leader andhe said i had 24 hours to consider this deal. that in fact, i would be able to get a job comparable to the salary i made in congress and he would help me raise legal defense money to put this behind me if i pulled out of the election. aey then would get it replacement which congressman boehner named -- >> what year was this? >> this was in 2006 in august. i had 24 hours. i remember john boehner saying if you don't accept this deal in 24 hours, it's off the table, we won't have this deal again. said fine. i'll take the deal.

comparable salary, you find me a job and you help me raise legal defense money to fight this thing. i just won the primary in 2006. was full steam ahead to run. boehner's call made the seg difference -- significant difference in me getting out just in time. after that and i announced and i officially sent me letter to secretary of state of ohio. i couldn't get a janitor in john boehner's office to call me back. all a evaporated. soon after that into the september or so time frame, my lawyers had contact from the justice department. it was full steam ahead indictments, multiple indictments or plea take your pick. at that point in time i made a decision to take a plea. by september 13th or so, alice fisher solved her lack of prosecution on the abram abramoff case. that's where you read the

believe where the dots connect it was me. >> here is the woman you refer to as pretty alice. [video clip] >> international and domestic trips. such as a trip to scotland with others valued at $160,000. a trip to new orleans valued $7000, a trip to lake george valued $3500. thousands of dollars of meals, drinks, ticks to concerts, tickets to sporting events and use of a box suite to conduct fundraisers. in exchange for this stream of benefits as congressman ney admits, he agreed to perform a series of official acts including four separate and unrelated amendments to election reform legislation. statements into the congressional record and

agreeing to support jack abramoff's clients in obtaining a multimillion declare contract. he concealed these actions from the public by filing inaccurate disclosure statements. wrong? fascinating. clear. i committed acts. i created this problem for myself and i admit that. i took free food from jack abram loft. gorgever, she meant lake trip. i was not indicted or asked for a plea on that trip. that lake gorge trip, i paid on that lake george trip. the people that went on that trip know that. the people they downloaded, some of my former staff, they know that too that was a personal trip four friends took it and i paid my way on that trip. as far as the thousands of

dollars, which the justice department estimates $6000 of my staff and i that we partook in food and alcohol, that's true. over a peers of -- period of three years. what she failed to mention when i would go to jack abramoff, i would shove the bush white house staff to the side to get drinks. i'm my own problem on this. when she mentions kind of highlights it, amendments this is the one that really gets me though. amendments into inserting amendments into the help america vote act. i inserted no amendment for jack abramoff into help america vote act. which was my legacy built with steny hoyer. the first official election bill given with the federal government in part of the

nation's history was the nation bill. i was on -- congress committee with senator mcconnell. at no point in time did say here's an amendment for jack abramoff, it didn't happen. hondid i agree to consider an amendment for jack abramoff for that bill, yes absolutely. i am probably one of the first members of congress in modern times to plead a felony for agreeing to consider an amendment to a bill. if they -- the hill today and charged felonies unpeople considering amendments to a bill, there would be barely anybody left and capitol hill. >> when did you know that you were doing something wrong? >> there were bright lines i crossed. for example, when jack abramoff came into my office and said of an amendment to help america vote act. he said members of the senate were interested in this. members of the senate were on board. i as a member of the house said clearly to jack abramoff i would consider this amendment,

which is my felony considering the amendment. i would consider this amendment. the other thing is that if the senate wanted this amendment, of course. i need that bill. if senators want that amendment and it doesn't rule in my bill, i told abramoff, i will consider that. at that point in time, i didn't know what was in the amendment. that in itself is a problem just to generically consider something a lobbyist want to say yes i'll consider that. i think that's a problem in itself. but the bright line is when we received, member of my staff received an e-mail and it said, if you want to go to jack's restaurant and if you want to eat and you want to drink, meaning myself and the office, although staffs wouldn't taken the responsibility, i could have said no. then, it's going to be taken care of. whether it's by jack or my stormer staff that worked for jack or whoever. bright line.

the other was the scotland trip. i came back and i turned to two staffers i said that was weird. at that point in time, i should have written a check. there were bright lines i crossed. i knew that did not smell right. when did i know, operates like d.c. operates. there were times probably within the six month of meeting jack abramoff, i should have said it doesn't look good. congress? >> i came in 1995. was part of the contract with america class. i resigned november of 2006. prison? >> i was in prison 17 months. i was behind the wall as we would say for years period into the halfway house. did 17 months federal time. my plea deal was 18 months. onwhen you think back

prison, what comes to mind first? >> first is people that think it's warehouse. anybody think it's rehabilitation. it's a warehouse. >> what was it like getting there the first day. who was with you? what were the first couple of days like? >> i did something i didn't want to do. my friend who is now my current boss at talk radio news ratner, said you must come to d.c. and you have to sit with webb hubbell. i remember webb hubbell when he walked into my hearing room. we were looking at whitewater and the president. we had webb hubbell brought out of prison. i remember seeing webb sitting in the suit. that's how i met webb hubbell

the first time. hearing in my life i'm washington d.c. spent may be four hours with webb. he prepared me for what was going to happen. he was former assistant attorney general. he said this is what's going to happen. when i went to prison, i didn't take my family with me. i took two of my -- one current staffer and one who quit and went on to operations media firm. hearingthose two staffers wente and they dropped me off at prison. i walked into the kiosk. i said i'm bob ney here to report. guard walked out and said i knew one of your campaign managers in ohio. got down in there. the guard said, here you have some hate mail. it was from california i remember in massachusetts, you you. they gave me the mail and you go

to the part of the strip down. then i got into the intake, walked into prison, down into the courtyard. the warden, i don't use the language, the warden told the -- said to get away from him i'm sitting there and not knowing where to go. another prisoner said where's your escort. i was in pajama pants. i said i don't know, some little guy in a suit. yelled some foul language. he took me way back in the laundry room. i walk in man sitting there and said are you the congressman. i said used to be. he said you're a republican aren't you? i said republicans put me in here you know. i have to pull up some humor to the situation. he said i was the mayor of east cleveland and welcome >> he was a prisoner? >> he was a prisoner.

he got me clothes. he said where's your unit. i said i don't know. some little guy yelled all kinds of foul things. at the end of the day, i found out the next day that was the warden. he was screaming let him find his own way to teach me a lesson. i walked towards the main line to eat the next day and my mind is racing. how am i going to when i get out of here and get a job. i lost every dime i ever owned. what about my children and family, what can i do? you disgraced and full of shame and etcetera. said,er turned to me and you co-authored the sudafed law and you put me in here. i realized, i got to get through the place. it's one day at a time. forget the house and job, i got to get through this place. i changed my attitude. that was my first 24 hours. >> what prison was it? >> morgantown federal

corrections. it's between west virginia and cumberland, massachusetts. i went to prison in morgan town, west virginia. i will make a choice to be buried in ohio. >> you said you worked for allen ratner. this audience knows ellen ratner from her appearance here. before we talks about her, i want to run a clip. this is just her appearance on this network. happened. [video clip] >> i was a big marcher in the 1960s. many marchers, the biggest one was in november of 196 the -- 1969 against the war. all of those l.b.j. i will not repeat what we used to say.

i've been a big dissenter my whole life. myellen ratner in recollection could not be any farther away from you politically. >> in the day in congress, there was zero that ellen ratner and i agreed upon. zero. politically. today we might agree on some things but still today i call ellen lovingly the queen of the left. ellen is a pure true liberal. we've been friends since i walked into the doors of congress. politically, we grew closer here and there. >> what did she do for you? >> ellen did several things. we not only became friends, we had this carmick relationship. she changed her birthday party, her big 50th. as a result, i didn't want to

go to a schedule i had in new york city. then some kind of fundraise enclosed stock exchange. he it set for september 11th of 2001. i saw ellen changed her birthday party. we said we did make it september 4. one week earlier i'm up in the tower looking out in new york. that was a bind with ellen and i. there was something about ellen ratner beyond just a friend. she visited me in prison. she said you need to come and work for talk radio news and do radio. i said ellen, i don't want to publicly do anything. i just want to work a job. she said, no you need to get back in the saddle and you have things to offer. what ellen did for me, i work for her now, that's the small part. counselor,y friend, psychiatrist, tough love. you know ellen ratner, she

doesn't let you get by with anything. ellen just has been a wonderful friend. >> where do you live now? >> near columbus, ohio. i used so share county with kasich. divorcedd twice and twice. current relationship? no, not really. >> kids? >> two children. >> nothing serious though. >> i have a grandchild. >> go back to prison. the thought of public officials being in prison and the experience is rarely written about. you put it all here on paper. what was it like that first couple days a inwhat -- days and what kind of cell were you in? you mentioned there was a toilet in the cell with you. >> the toilets are put into solitary confinement. i mentioned the shu.

solitary confinement units. i mentioned that if you get in trouble, that's where you're placed with another person. >> did you ever get in trouble? >> well, i did. i did get in trouble once because i went to do some laundry and the one officer said, what are you doing? i said laundry. it's hard to explain the tvs were turned on which mean you can get up and move around. we thought we could get up and move around. turned the tv is off. i said sorry, i can't repeat on tv what he said to me. you better be sorry and i know who you are congressman. i never got sighted for it. otherwise i didn't get in trouble. as far as what the prison was liking it was dramatic at that time. my family, i was married with my second wife. you walk in there and everything you've ever known is behind you. i always tell my friends, i went from capitol hill where hello mr. chairman would you like a drink mr. chairman to no you're not getting second round

of oatmeal, scum bag, move on. different attitude in prison. when i went in, i immediately met some people and i got to be frank about this, i became friends more with the people who were in there for drug offenses than the white collar people. i became more friends. first of all, they didn't whine as much about prison. they were more street savvy. they would never had a chance to meet a member of congress. a lot to share. light of minorities, african- americans and latinos, said we would never had an opportunity to meet you in congress. i would answer questions in some of the classrooms and talk to them about jobs and resumes. i received a lot back from them. but the first initial part is terrifying for anyone,

especially myself because i went from a lawmaker to a law breaker. some people in prison said, you made the law to put me in here. you did that to me. of course, you try to say you broke the law but yes i created the law. >> was a country club security? >> ricky campbell, i have permission to use his name, he has written two pages i believe in this book. ricky campbell was a prisoner. very fascinating he had to say. he was in longer than i was. ricky addresses the club, sad thing. barbara walters did an interview about swimming pool. this was a minimum. it wasn't a camp. >> bars on -- >> correct. >> you have the door, no cells open cubicles or things like that. they even look you in at night.

even lock you in at night. there's officers but you could get out to go to the restroom. there are no particular cells unless you get in trouble then you go into the s.h.u. the holding area. it's prison. it's punishment. you will do this at a certain time, you will do that at a certain time. you will follow the rules. you run out of minutes and you have emergency at home, too bad. if someone dies, you hear ney to the chapel. you go to the chapel. i know particular case from two friends. oh, your mother died and by the way you owe us $22 on the account. i know i did wrong and there were people in prison that did wrong, there's a certain human quality, if you want to psychologically rebuild someone who committed a crime, so prison is no joyride. i don't care if it's county lock up or federal. it gave a country club attitude

to the place. yes, there are maximum security places i wouldn't want to be where there are hard core people. they may be committed murder or such types of crimes. the minimums are no picnic ride where you free to talk to your family and pick up the phone. >> who was charles moser? >> he was my probation officer. he's federal. he was assigned to me in columbus, ohio. had an interesting conversation, he was in fact, calling to the prison, the prison, the gentleman in the prison that over saw that part of the probation when you leave would call me in. he just would scare me to death. what do you have in this man called for? what are you trying to do? you think you're something congressman. i said i don't know charles moser. he went out of line.

but calls in created me a massive heart burn. as show in the book, they called me in to ask me, who was working for, how much money i was going to make, which i didn't know at that time i was just happy to have a job. all of these details that you normally are put through are prior to me getting out of prison. i was not press released from prison on the due date i was suppose to be released. by accident, i was able to get a private call to my attorney. >> how much of this book did you write yourself? >> i written the entire book myself except for ricky campbell's part and matt parker a former staffer of mine. that put together one chapter in the book. i had an editor, sherry johnson from new mexico, wonderful woman. the actual book itself, as far

as the thoughts of the book, i have written them. whodn't have a ghost writer gave me the material. sherry, as editor would help me. >> where did you write it? >> i wrote it in india. it's called goa and specifically mccloud, which is a city -- i was five -- minutes from the residents of the dali lama. >> how did you write it longhand or dictate it? >> i ended up -- i had one of those, i don't know what you call it you speak into this mic. i actually would sit down on word on the computer, go to either down by the ocean, we'd go to the tee shops.

i would type it up and i would send it to sherry and would start chapter by chapter. i returned to newark, ohio and did editing for my return which is around may 31st and did editing up to january to when we pushed the send button. >> why did they publish? >> that was ellen ratner. she opened her own publishing company. she has published four or five books and wanted to do with herself. right now they have murray hemingway. hemingway. they have published a book by sherry johnson who was my editor. who has published a book about her daughter. and myself, i think they have two other people. it's a new publishing company. >> there's another media person beside ellen ratner that you

write about. tell us why. >> at that time, he had sent to - john bresnahan brian brought the e-mail in. he said in there some bad language what he was going to do to mr. ney. when i said to brian, i said i want that e-mail. brian, it was one of those e- mails you really don't want to have in the hands of other people. i had been told by some of abramoff's people that john was getting information from jack abramoff story. because jack was secluded from the press as you can imagine. he was doing stories but at point in time, i was told point bank by jack abramoff's people that jack was angry at

me. i had used the word that he duped me andtop delay was still standing up for me. that was one. -- tom delay was still standing up for him. second the fact that the whistleblower really started this, tom rogers. says emily miller. he's a native american. he's the first one that uncovered rightfully so, the dealing with jack abramoff. tom rogers confronted jack abramoff and said your people in cash gains with reporters. members of congress mostly staff, lobbyist.

jack said i can't recall. at that point in time, i had played cards with bresh le han money. -- i had paid him money. i knew think had some card games going. i felt that was important to reveal in the process. i don't think that should occur. i felt that he had his cake and eat it too in the way he would carry out stories on people. he himself as a reporter was making terrible violations of the rules and the ethics and even the smell of the ethics involved with staffers and lobbyist. the other thing is there was an arrangement of jack abramoff. jack had a plan where he can control media. >> what kind of worry did you have? you accused john of taking money but you say in the book

that you let him win the card games. >> i don't say he knew that. i'm sitting there and the card game with the reporter. i have a pretty good hand. i'm going to fold that hand. i'm going to lose $268. that's my intention. i'm not saying said do that. i'm not saying he knew i did that. >> what have he done wrong then? >> i don't think as a reporter you should be in cash gains with members of congress or cash gains with lobbyist. how many lobbyist are folding hands to make someone happy? >> i wrote down you talk about the money hores in d.c. who are the money or is? whores? >> the system itself is

dysfunctional. john mccain, mccain was going to clean up the system. that bill mccain-feingold create did zero. i believe a lot of it is the race for money. i'm asked constantly on radio shows about members of congress are they good or bad. there are some people that we know since i've got in trouble have gotten in trouble. but the system itself is doomed corruption. anything jack abramoff and i did, i ate sushi with jack abramoff and i went to scotland with jack abramoff. if i'm a lobbyist and you're a congressman today, i give true examples in the book that happened. examples in the book sometimes

with names omitted for a reason. you can produce names. toi want to i can take you alaska. we can hunt. we can have a $3000 to $4000 dinner. we can do that and i can raise you $75,000. i can then take you a staffer and may be some of your family, we can have a $2000 or $3000 a dinner. it's all legal. as long as we stand and at the reception and eat. i can have meals. alice fisher in her announcement, see said congressman used fundraiser. everybody on that hill today. i was charged, i pled guilty. give me break. the entire congress would be in lock down.

>> what do you mean by a lohse? >> it is a private box. >> those are the types of things where they say, he used private allowance. >> here's some video, tom rogers you mentioned. i want to you take a look at him and you can tell us what role he played. [video clip] >> my world is very small. >> there's not too many native americans in the country. i had people who trusted me who came to me. they came to me in the year of 2002. i walked into a bar and i looked for somebody who were looked like they were looking for somebody. up walks this young gentlemen former chairman. ernest hickey. story.

he can imagine i wasn't surprised. said tom we're paying tens of millions of dollars to a lobbyist. i said jack abramoff, he said yes. i don't know what we're getting for it. that was the constant narrative. >> how did he play such a significant role? >> if you look at the -- there's two movies. tom rogers was in there and neil my former chief of staff has a book. there's the movie by kevin spacey, who plays jack abramoff, i like spacey. in that movie it shows emilie miller scorned by mike. the business partner of jack bob nabramoff. >> had to work for tom delay. >> that was a hollywood version. tom rogers started all of this.

i praise him for starting all of this. he stood up on behalf of native-americans. he found out something was going on that didn't look like. -- it didn't look right or smell right. when you get to a certain level and you use members of congress to verify that this is a great lobbyist. keep hiring him. the native-americans unfortunately aren't getting that much a return, then it's not a healthy situation. tom rogers simply told the truth. he is the man that got this ball rolling. >> fox com, what's that story? wantedfederal government to indict me for fox com so bad that pretty alice was salivating to do this. at the end of the day fox com was one of the weird contracts

that the actual providers were the ones who decided. members of congress their time is extremely valuable. when they go to vote, they go underground or above ground. when you go underground the cell phones literally would not work. chairman thomas, there was a contract to wire under the capital on the house side the devices that will repeat signals so members of congress can use their cell phones. there were two company, l.g.c. and fox com. supporting each one. company. it was originally from tel aviv in israel. bill thomas did not want to get between the two members of congress. when i got in there, sergeant of arms did such a wonderful job.

jack abramoff com. haley barbour were the twoof course those companies contacted us and as jack abramoff and haley barbour did. they wanted to see if their clients can get the fox com contract or the l.g.c. contract. i put it by the wayside. i was serious about this. later when we kept getting complaints from members of congress, not from haley barbour or jack abramoff, i called the n.s.a., the national security agency. wey came to my office and privately met. i said tell me what's the bottom line of this security aspect?

they went ahead and they looked at this and we went to a skip room which was in the capital. that's a private room nothing bounces in and nothing bounces out. i won't reveal the information today because of the security, they say it's okay to do these if we do them this way. the israel-based company or the l.g.c. american company. you do it this waying then we're okay. what we did with the contract, it went two j. eagan, the ca orc -- cao. of the house at that time. we had providers of sprint, horizon or at&t. they would sign off, do you want l.g.c. or want fox com. we had that input. the majority said they wanted fox com. there was one little twist in

this though. at one point in time, the word was used and this is how i met with fox com, the word jew was used. i have many jewish friends and israellys would say i'm a jew. you can refer that way. when you use that word in another way, it's a derogatory way to use that word. >> let me read what you word. -- what you wrote. you say the gist of the story involves neil volts, not as a lobbyist but as staff director for house administration committee. haley barbour called neil. he had an area of hey, it's haley, need this one. translate that. haley. haleycame to me, said needs this one. haley was the head of the republican national committee. he was the money guy.

needed haley barbour. for l.g.c. >> who's against jack abramoff. >> neil told me at one point haley said he was fairly busy and have bob call me on this some time. do members of congress normally pick up the phone and call this? >> you can. it's happened. it was pretty flip of faith. i'm a little busy. >> let me finish this. the real problem stems from l.g.c. lobbyist, not only to us, he referred to fox com as, the jews, and could not understand why i would do give a contract to a foreign quote, jew company. are you talking about haley barbour saying that?

you say an l.g.c. lobbyist instead of haley barbour. >> that's what happened. but it transcended from there. the government said you met fox com it was because of the jewish issue and not the contract. whether jack picked it up, jack came into me personally and i remember what see said. he said this isn't about money or the contract and this is about your reputation about the jewish community and you may be anti-jewish. i said that's ridiculous. i support the israelis. he brings in fox com officials and he said you want to clear this up about bob and apec was

getting mad. at that point it time, i said listen, i don't know if you're going to get this contract or not but as far as not getting the contract because you are an israeli company, that is absurd. i said that's my point. jack could be what you thought he would be. jack could talk a dog of a meat truck. jack abramoff found out about this and proceeded to get fox com before me. that's possible. the government when they said to our attorneys, he sat with fox com. yes, i sat with fox com because of that issue, it became part of my political problem. >> who got the contract? >> fox com got the contract. >> by the way what kind of rights do you have now when it comes to congress? can you go on the house floor? floor. house. i can take people on the house

floor, speaker pelosi i would call her office. i don't think i put it in the book yes i have privileges of the house. the only problem i had was with john boehner. it took 10 days. >> have you been back over here and how do they treat you? i've been treated well. when i first got out of prison, i was working for ellen ratner. i called and i i'm not going to go to the dining room ellen. i haven't been back in the capital. i had a lot of shame. i had a lot of friends over in the capital and it's not good. she said walk over. as i walked in and i had my former members card and i remember, i will never forget

this, the police officer standing there and he says, welcome back mr. chairman. that card is not needed here. i walked into the house dining room and couple started crying. i saw some members and we said hello. i said wow. better than i deserve. it was a moment for me. i went back to the capital in 2008. >> do you get a pension? >> yes i get a pension. i took the pension earlier because all my money was gone so i took an early pension. >> how much did your legal fees cost you? >> $518,000. i drained my campaign account, which is caused me to go before john boehner to ask him for money. i was trying to get money to get through the election to win it. i ran out of money basically.

won the primary and then was headed into zero balance practically into the election >> here is jack abramoff talking about at the national press conference. [video clip] >> bob apparently had a different issue that was related to mine. he took $50,000 in casino chips from an iranian businessman who wanted the government to give permission to sell planes to iran. that act dealing with casino in london which i think unhinged bob. bob pled by the way. in terms with stuff with me, nobody else was indicted because a lot of congressional action is protected unto the speech and debate clause. >> you write in your book, i am skeptical today as to whether jack abram av learned his lesson or if he is back and after the mighty dollar rather than redemption.

where are you? have you seen him since? >> i seen a little note on facebook and he isn't me one back. >> this whole story about london and the chips? >> this is the first time i've seen this. if i read my quote now, i'm not sure, now after seeing this i am sure she jack abramoff don't want to be frank about what happened. >> what happened? >> first of all when jack said there's a problem with the chips. it's not indicted for the chips. second it was not an iranian businessman. the other thing is that the government had the story about asked colin powell to try to sale airplane parts. that conversation movie happened. never asked colin powell if he would help. when jack said, they got bob

because of the casino chips. i did have a problem of declaring all the chips. i put that in the book. the government didn't indict me on that. what jack abramoff saying, if bob hadn't had that problem in the casino, not saying that helped, if he had hasn't that problem, there was nothing they would have convicted him for. that's not accurate. i took free food from jack abramoff that should have been reported and i pled guilty to falsification of federal document which was actually a congressional document. jack doesn't like the answer to very question that he has created now in controversy. on" 60 minutes" said i have a million dollars. he spent a million dollars on a hundred members and he spent

30,000 on me, what was the difference between those members and myself? i'm not saying i can point the finger that member should be indicted or not. there are other people who took trips with jack abramoff and other people that inserted items in the congressional record for jack abramoff. notgue jack abramoff is correct that he and i really didn't do anything. it was the london problem bob he and i had. i write in my book, i think once i went away, congress, the bad guys were in prison. when john mccain had his senate hearing on affairs and jack abramoff there, ralph reid former head of the christian coalition was involved in a secret plot received in money making millions of dollars to act like he wanted to close a casino.

jack was to open it. which i said to me that jack is a good guy. when john mccain had his hearing he didn't drag jack reid there, he only dragged jack abramoff there. the only thing he mentioned was me. when he said, even bob would have been found guilty if it wasn't for london. that is not an admission of reality. >> you said earlier, they went by the roll call on capitol hill. >> i made a mistake. >> he did wanted to buy that and you talked about john and then you say jack knew that once i went away, his friend and others will be spared. the justice department totally dropped it.

should tom delay have been indicted? >> i can't answer that because i'm not alberto gonzalez and i'm not jack abramoff. i will tell you this, if i was indicted for going -- if i pled because i went on a trip to scotland and tom went on a trip to scotland. paiddid tom's daughter's for the bridal shower or the baby shower. tom's former chief of staff received filtered million dollars from some type of foundation. are those indictable. i don't know. my point is that if a jury in texas in the state, in fact, convicted tom delay what happened with the justice department

if these are peanut things as we were either all indictable or not. of you standing over on the st. andrews golf course with the group. look at this picture. there? >> well, when i went into prison, i was 234 pounds. i was probably a good 212 there. >> what are you now? >> i'm about 173. >> who is that if the picture? david, who's still in prison may be a year. safavian - ralph reid, jack abramoff and myself and some guy, i don't know jack hired. >> you suggested though in your book that ralph reid was on the airplane with you and it was eight passenger private jet. who flew you over there to scotland. >> jack abramoff. >> what year was this?

>> 2002. >> has this been cleaned up here in this town? you remember this picture, think that's jack abramoff's son there in the front. a probably. you do fundraiser you probably do. >> how availabler planes to you when you were chairman of the administration committee? >> one point incident to make about this trip, the trip was underreported. the trip did not turn out as we had listed it would. didn't meet with people we were suppose to. should have wrote a check for the trip. tom from florida got in trouble for the same trip. he wrote a check and did not go to prison. as far as this trip we didn't even know, particularly it was

still fuzzy who paid for it. chairman of the house administration committee, i could confiscate department say -- i could call the state department and say fire up the jets i want to go to scotland and i want to meet with so and so and by the way i want to say three days and golf. i can do that. my one argument about this trip i would make is this, jack abramoff knows this and justice department knew it, at no point in time i said jack, i want to go to scotland. at no point it time. d en i say jack abramoff dupe me, i'm referring to one thing, when jack abramoff told indian tribe that ney wanted to take the trip. and you guys pay for it,i didn't have to do this. that part of it i have issues

with jack abramoff. that's where i use the part about duping. >> i want to be carol how i -- -- i want to be careful how i say this -- careful how i say this, when i read your book and you go into so much more detail on what we've been able to cover here. i thought may be a shower might be useful. not thinking about you but thinking about this town. how much of this goes on to this day? more than anything that we haven't talked are all the staff abusing their privileges behind the scene. >> jack abramoff and i will agree on one thing if he was sitting here today. everything we did is on steroids now. may be the trips are stopped but everything is on steroids. they can do all kinds of things up here. the power games, the money games. everybody on hill knows what i say is true.

you want to be a chairman, you have to raise that money. you have to play that game to be part of the system. the leaders are making incredible amounts of money and they control a lot of theow through it. the big pharmaceutical companies, they don't have to go to individual members, go to some of the leaders. at the end of the day on this shiny bright capitol hill are some wonderful people in this country, democrat and republicans. but also this is corrupt. a lot of good people, some bad people, mainly good i argue but the system is broken. the barrel is corrupt. >> let me ask you in a different way, if you were teaching high school or college course, would you teach an academics view of how a bill becomes law or would you have them read this? >> i would tell the academic process, i would have them read this and tell them the truth. the reality of how some of the bills becomes law. it's a mixture out there. if you take away the money game, i would agree with abramoff and things i heard him say, if you want to serve in congress, you

will become a lobbyist. you -- you don't become a lobbyist. this is not a feeding ground for the lobby circuit. take that out of it. take the money out of the system if you can. don't buy chairmanships of committees. don't have that nuclear campaign arms race of raising money. look, today, people take their staffers federally paid. they take them to the democrat war room, i call it. they take them to the republican war room across from the capital and they raise money on federal time. is it illegal no? is it right, no? committeey the next will -- thecan make phone calls for republican and national committee? >> sure, i did it and it's been done today. i can safely say somebody isthere's at the of changes today. speaker boehner and minority leader pelosi could join enhance today and within 24 hours, have such a dynamic change on that hill. up allow these good people

there, democrats and republicans to function. >> we haven't gotten any time left, when was the last time you had a drink? >> september 13, 2006. >> everyday? aa every day? >> about four times a week. >> i assume you're talking about -- >> i'm sorry, it's 12 step recovery. >> you may not want to answer, i assume you refer to old bill -- talking about bill wilson? >> i'm talking about my friend in ohio. we call him old bill and his wife judy. traditions of a.a., we don't talk about a.a. i do 12 step recovery. >> the name of the book is "sideswiped: lessons learned courtesy of the hit men of capitol hill." former congress from ohio. we thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> for dvd copy of this program call 1(877)662-6626 for free transcripts or to give us your comment about this program, visit us at q&a.org. "q&a" programs are also available at c-span podcast. >> she marries at the age of 16 and helped teach her husband to be a better reader and writer. during the civil war, she speaks supplies to unionists and the tennessee mountains by the time her husband assumes the presidency, she is in poor health and secludes herself to a second-floor room in the white house. meet eliza johnson as we continue our series on first ladies with your questions and

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washington times" domestication into federal contracting. "washington journal" is next. ♪ host: good morning. it is monday, april 29, to the 13. before they left town and several members of congress to to the sunday shows for a major topic of conversation with the ongoing conflict in this area. among the options that were discussed was the possibility of putting u.s. troops on the ground in that country. that is where we want to begin with you this morning on "washington journal." . what should u.s. options be and should boots on the ground reconsidered? give us a call.