-- of child care. our guests are barbara gault linda laughlin. "washington journal" is next. ♪ host: good morning. after a one-week recess, congress returns next week. a live view of the u.s. capital here in washington, d.c. meanwhile, the president is in mexico. tomorrow he is in coastal rica before returning to washington. it's friday, may the third. new information this morning on the boston marathon armors. july 4 was apparently the original target dates. new information according to the fbi. story on has a cover how safe stadiums and sports arenas are. "time" magazine is examining

the issue of security versus civil liberties. that is our focus for the first 45 "washington journal minutes here on the c-span's "washington journal." first 45 minutes here on c-span's "washington journal." if you are a democrat, (202) 585-3880, republicans can call (202) 585-3881, and independents call (202) 585-3882. our portal -- our twitter handle is @cspanwj. let's look at the headlines. the story of the boston bombers as new information comes out today. the terror suspect revealing plans. originally it was july 4 at the target date in boston. this morning, the headline of "the seattle times uncle how police seize control on a volatile night. you can see increased security across seattle.

and "usa today was quoted have this question -- are stadiums safe? sports venues are vulnerable, security. " magazine hasme this title -- homeland insecurity. -- one ofer is the the contributors to this story. he points out "concerns about government encroachment on civil liberties have grown in recent years while americans are increasingly amenable to are growing more opposed to standard monitoring of cell phones, e-mail, the internet and chat rooms." the miller is joining us live on the phone from "time" magazine. your story looking at the sentiments of the american people. what did you learn? guest: the thing that struck out

to me is that is how people are changing and responding to different surveillance methods, but 63% of americans believe that no matter what the government will do, terrorists will always find a way in. it is a time that we do not need .o overreact every time it is a sign of maturity that the american people have really come to grips with the nature of the threat. we are not overreacting every time something like this happens every time. , as youis one question begin the article, how far should we go yet go -- go? how do you answer that? guest: it is one of the

unanswerable questions because it is the same question we all make all the time. even when we get in a car, should we push the speed limit , the faster we drive, we could get into a crash, something bad might happen to us. larger scale, this is why government has to do with this issue every day. every second of every day. just how tight should security be, balancing privacy. do we want to put more security at union station in washington? security?put more on the other side, it will make you feel more like a police state and less like the country we grew up with. there is no easy answer. and what the government tries to

do and what we all have to do is essentially try to weigh the good versus the bad. you have to weigh security and privacy, and there's no easy answer. to theeke, let me get essence of the "time" piece -- that summarizes what we are asking our viewers and listeners. "congress and u.s. intelligence agencies are now studying whether warning signs were tragically missed in boston." host: the article also points out 150 years of this issue of civil liberties versus american security. do you want to touch on point?ee echo -- on this guest: the federal government

has gotten really -- a few people have slipped through the cracks. but by and large, you have large scale plot coming in from overseas. home-grown individuals. one person, too, maybe three people will talk to each other. the internet. that is something we have never seen before. -- you know,ve to you cannot shut off the internet. you cannot infiltrate every school. all of these overreaction constitutional aspects apply to american spirit it is harder to deal with. is thestion is -- how

government set up to catch these people and what sort of warning signs should be set up to catch these people before they are able to carry out a plot like this? should there be additional regulation there you go -- there? the larger point of this story what wes essentially have from former cia chief michael hayden. we may find this particular plot was preventable. but it was inevitable. small-scale plots in the modern world -- no matter how good the government gets, essentially there is always going to be some way, if it is not with a pressure cooker, it is with something else. there is always somebody who wants to do harm. the question is -- how do you get the most security for the least and friends on right is

the? infringement on privacy? on a your story focusing new cnn poll, looking at the concern of american people, whether they could be the victim of a terrorist target. but you also draw an analogy between what we saw during the olympics in atlanta and what we're seeing today. a a change of attitude. what was that? guest: we are seeing across the board the maturation is the word ,e're using -- people do not they feel slightly more likely that they would be a victim of a terrorist attack. how theyes in terms of will change their lives after atlanta, after 9/11.

in terms of the surveillance, they're very comfortable with more security. that is the thing we saw a lot of fear about five or six years ago. ,he way we use computers people are feeling like their internet space is much more like their physical space. they do not want eavesdropping, monitoring. , the notion that terrorists will always find some way to do a little bit of wrong, and government will have to stop them from doing a lot of wrong. that is something we have not really seen it all over the years. not a defeatist attitude. it is a sign of maturity that people are able to manage the risk first is reward of how you deal with these things. you not want a police state, we want a free country that offers a good job that protects its citizens. host: the cover story of "time"

magazine -- homeland insecurity. one of the authors of the piece, zeke miller. thank you for being with us. guest: thank you for having me. host: the issue of security versus civil liberties. based on a new poll from "time" magazine. the cover story of "usa today." it has a lot of attention on baseball -- the playoffs and hockey. venues ares sports vulnerable. the piece points out -- host: one of our viewers -- what is the difference between

government surveillance and private videocameras everywhere you go? we will hear from john on the independent line. what are your thoughts? a huge distrust of my government in the first place. we have 16 security agencies working for the federal government, yet these two idiots got through the security and blew up and killed a bunch of people. i'm not willing to give up any of my civil liberties so that i can feel more secure. thank you. host: so what is the solution? caller: well, you are going to be amazed by this, but i talked to ian arab individual the other day who i thought was muslim, was actually a christian, and he told me that we need to get rid of every muslim out of the country because they are sent here to kill us. host: ok.

we will leave it at that. john, thank you for the call. inside the "wall street journal ." host: mike is joining us from

pearland, texas. independent line. a good i think that is case of the police doing their job. there is no reason to give up any civil liberties whatsoever. the thing everybody is a little bit worried about is once the government starts down a road, they can turn back from it. thing are these grants to weed out government haters. palm beach county got one. we have $1 million to look for possible people who might be threatening the government. you know? this is just silly when a policeman need to do their police work. , we cannot have people from terrorist art of the parts of the world immigrating to america.

we are importing people that want to kill us. host: mike, thank you for the call. you can also join the conversation on our twitter page -- @cspanwj. here is this from one of our regular tweeters -- the answer is stop the government by creating more enemies by their foreign-policy. "gain, the cover story of "time magazine focusing on homeland insecurity. we need to sacrifice privacy to be safer? dealing with security versus civil liberties. another story -- shaun waterman of "the washington times." the story is available online at washingtontimes.com. he is point out that raising the stakes with congressional republicans over last year's terrorist attack in benghazi, persons that familiar with the state department saying investigations -- investigators

talks last year with cia personnel who were on the grounds during the attack and were briefed about cia activities at the secret base in the libyan city. the quality of the administration's internal review and its access to the key point of contention as republicans europe for a hearing next week on what happened in benghazi on september 11. that reporting from shaun waterman of the "washington times." michael vincent joining us from staten island, new york. good morning, sir. caller: good morning, steve. i am of one world life systems. i want to thank the crew and everyone behind the things getting us going every morning. a very essential topic. i've been saying for years, the national of our anthem, especially since 9/11, has become land of the fearful and home of bravado.

four or not the weather five times, it is any one of these incidents blown out of proportion and not looking at the people we are and the people from where these events are happening. yearseen calling for 30 now for a human rights court. we send our children 10,000 miles away to kill other people's children 10,000 miles away, many time in the name of human rights. we don't have a human rights court in any jurisdiction in this country. but we can bring a bad landlord and in 10 days time to handle a parking ticket, now, where i think our resident situation started in our context of our elders and our young people now, we should have prosecuted nixon.

alley northve sent and company for iran-contra to jail. we should have looked to a lot of the surveillance that was already happening in the 1990's. but we don't hold ourselves accountable. then others around the world -- because i've heard from immigrants who come into the country. they see it that's very hypocritical. host: thank you for the call. as we said at the top of the program, the president is in mexico city this morning. he held a news conference with his counterpart here it we have it on our website at c-span.org. this is a scene from the arrival. this is the president spending a couple of days in a part of the world. also traveling to coaster rica. also from -- to costa rica. this is from "the hill" newspaper. obama says u.s. is looking at all options.

[video clip] the president saying is what i have been been saying for months -- we are continuously looking at the situation on the ground, looking to our partners to find the best way to move a political transition that has a thought leaving, stabilize the country, in the killing, and allows the syrian people to determine their own destiny. we have made enormous investments, not just in humanitarian aid, but also in helping the opposition help its -- organize itself. and make sure that it has a consistent vision about how it is operating. we have seen evidence of further bloodshed, potential use of chemical weapons inside of syria, what i've said is that we are going to look at all options. we know that there are countries that are currently providing lethal aid to the opposition. we also know that the aside regime is getting not just

lethal aid but also training and support from countries outside of syria. and we want to evaluate and make sure that every step that we take advance of the day when a thought is gone. host: comments from the president yesterday. "the national journal" has this piece by michael hirsch -- iraq and libya hot obama's syria policy. he points out that the obama ministration's policy on. is moving in slow increments that is often difficult for the naked eye to detect any policy at all. that process is unlikely to accelerate much in coming weeks by the flurry of activity lately by secretary john kerry's trip to russia next week. and inside "the washington post ."

as from -- that is from michael gerson. one of our viewers a saying it is not civil liberties, it is a god-given right. our next call is from arizona. good morning. democrats line. caller: good morning. how are you this morning? host: fine, thank you. caller: my thought on everything that happens and everything that is a problem and has been a problem for the whole world all the time and every day has been to try and find out the root cause of the problems. even though we are talking about my liberties and security and stuff, i give up my liberties and hopefully it is for my security, but i do give up my

liberties. i do believe that it is very important to try to get along with people and try and create more harmony then we have had with the rest of the world. host: thank you for the call. the "boston globe" focusing on assistance for those victims. $1 million proposed for some of the victims. the other story -- july 4 was the original target for the attack. according to officials. below that of a story about rhode island becoming the 10th state to approve same-sex marriage. it will take effect later this summer. the "the miami herald" -- president in mexico. our success is shared. penaresident is rated by nieto. and the fire in south los angeles. for a story of that newspaper. aileen is joining us from

connecticut. how do you deal with security versus civil liberties? caller: good morning. as far as civil liberties, i don't think that the drones that we've used in afghanistan and iraq should be allowed to fly over our own u.s. citizens. part ofthat to be a the military government, you should not have to take an oath that you will fire on a u.s. citizen. i think that the intelligence center that they have built should not be allowed to collect all of our phone calls, all of our e-mails, all of our .nternet, any of our photos there is enough storage room there to collect 100 years of information on every single citizen of the united states. host: ok. thank you for the call. from "the new york times" and "the washington post" again --

both papers focusing on that original target date of july 4. fbi officials also questioning whoolder victims wife, officials might belief might be more involved than originally thought in part because she recently decided to stop cooperating. the story is playing out in these two newspapers. bill is joining us from elizabeth, new jersey. , steve.good morning i want to talk about to personal experience is. a few years back, i went to attend the soccer game at the redjersey meadowlands at bulls arena. when i got to the gate, i said i wanted to my pockets, i will walk through a metal dissector, but i will not let you cut me down. i was refused entry at both stadiums over this. i do not believe that its security. me going and saying you're not patting me down is not going to do anything. but if 80,000 people said the same thing at the gates, these

arenas might rethink their policy on that. host: ok, so how do you find the balance between the two? and light of what happened in boston, the "usa today" cover story this morning, where do you strike the balance? caller: like i said, i told them i would walk for a metal detector, let them wand me, but i would not let them pat me down. a day or two after that, i wrote a letter, and i got a phone call from the meadowlands security director. he explained to me that the reason they do not use metal detectors is that plastic explosives won't show up on the metal detector. but this is just a personal belief in mind. i believe a patdown is going one step too far to attend either a concert or a sporting event. host: ok, bill, do it for the call. the founding fathers warned that many excuses would be used by tyrants to take our god-given right. is it security or is it control

you go -- control? is our line for democrats, (202) 585-3881 for republicans. let me go back to the reporting of zeke miller, who joined us at the top of the program. he has a sidebar issue on the issue of homeland security. "concern about government encroachment on civil liberties have grown in recent years. americans are increasingly amenable to passive efforts, including cameras and facial recognition, their growing more close to the standard monitoring of cell phones and e-mails and internet chat rooms." john is joining us next on the independent line. good morning. caller: i draw the line right there on the e-mail and internet and all of that is this. they should not be monitoring that. i mean, when you look to a public arena, that is a whole different thing with these

things going on, they have to have the security. like the guy would not go in the football field if he was getting had it down. i'm glad to be patted down because i do not want somebody to get in there with a bomb. -- it is to ana point where there have to watch it or these things are just going to happen even worse. there is got to be some restrictions in the public arena. andon the phone calls stuff -- no. it is not just the muslims. these people call in and say -- i mean, we have had a bombing that the olympics that were by people from here. the kid who shot all the kids at the school. violence is violence. and people kill people. it is a matter who you are. we just have to watch these public places because it does not take a mastermind to do something like this. it is just risky. host: ok, thank you for the

call. before departing for mexico city, the president announces new u.s. trade representative, a longtime friend and the family pennyo the hotel chain, is the choice to be commerce secretary. this is the photo from the "new york times." a different headline from "the washington times" has penny pritzker facing tax saving questions. pointing out that nominating her to run the commerce department gambling that her role in a failed bank, her personal finances, and opposition from labor groups won't derail her senate concert -- confirmation. some questions likely to come up here yesterday was her 54th birthday. the president making a comment that as a birthday present, she

gets to testify go through the confirmation process. about 150,000 hits on youtube in exchange between a member of congress on the issue of the house armed services committee. this took place last friday. in case you missed it, we want to share it with you again. [video clip] >> would you care to hear a brief response? >> mr. secretary, we have been talking about this for a year and a half. this 20 day old e-mail does not have reach back for the system. we can talk all we want to. it is not going anywhere. i'm happy to stay here -- >> first off, i object to this. i am tired of somebody telling me i do not care about our soldiers or don't respond. everybody on my staff cares about it and they do all they can to help. so if you want to bring up an anecdotal incident, lets it down, talk about it, we will give a response. if i go back to my staff, they will tell you it was responded to.

they will tell you since it was not requested, and it all needed anymore. we have been going i can forth for months. i'm tired of the anecdotal -- very powerfula personality, but that does not refute the facts that you have gaps in the capability -- >> we have more capability today in our intelligent than we have ever had. host: former secretary john mchugh and governor rao narrow with congressman -- on the issue of afghanistan and troops coming home to the u.s. at a change already getting an estimated 150,000 views on youtube. a large number for a congressional hearing. back to your call spirit we are focusing on homeland security versus civil liberties. this is the subject of a new " magazine poll. jodi has a point on twitter -- those people who would give their liberty away for security deserve neither. this is america.

we mentioned earlier that the president has named his choice for commerce secretary. there is a story this morning from michael shear. from page of "the new york times." the sword pointing out that there are a number of fake and sees and the federal government. host: and there is a related story from bloomberg "business week."

why are these people still sitting in those chairs? host: the story this morning from bloomberg "businessweek." bob is joining us from texas. , steve.good morning thank you for taking my call. i appreciate it. i just like to remind folks that when the patriot act was passed and being argued about before its passage, the republicans'

response to the democrats complaining about you losing their civil liberties, their response was -- if you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have to worry about it. i would like to remind them, i do not think the republicans have a leg to stand on complaining about loss of civil liberties. i appreciate you taking my call. thank you. host: thank you for the call. joseph ramirez -- how does one have a next notation of privacy in public? anthony joining us from michigan. good morning. what is your take? caller: yes, i think we should give up some liberties for better security because with of these bombings in boston and different techniques that they are using these days to her people -- to hurt people, i

think we may have to give up because people are entering the country illegally, numerous tactics. people are living in place of and then they rotate out. -- is this, like able wrote like a rotating apartment? you are used to some stability. but there are all different kinds of situations that the employee to get at these attacks. i do not think it is unreasonable to give up some liberties. because to be working they were able to catch the bombers. the video, cameras, assistance

of other civilians. host: but anthony, where do you draw the line? caller: where do i draw the line? i hadn't really thought about where to draw the line. i guess, as long as it is for safety, i do not see where it is inappropriate. wherecomes to a point they identify the person before they publish a goal, that is what you have to do. host: thank you very much. the piece from "time" begins with these words -- the contest between liberty and security has been with us since america put the founding. it has been fought on the public stage by every president from george washington to barack obama. the cover story is looking at homeland security versus insecurity. couple of political notes to share with you. in south carolina today, vice president joe biden speaking at the jefferson jackson dinner in

columbia, south carolina. from the state newspaper, which is the largest newspaper in the state, a little more over a year since the last primary in felker on it, the next one gets a unofficial start in -- on sunday night. vice president biden and ted cruz will speak -- will speak and present other speakers. we will have live coverage of the vice president for the remarks. our coverage gets underway at 7:30 eastern time and will follow the vice president with coverage of senator ted cruz's remarks with a fundraiser for the state republican party. join us on the republican line, good morning. welcome to the "washington journal." caller: good morning. i want to put my two cents worth. as far as our server liberties go -- civil liberties go, our forefathers fought and died and gave their names to protect our rights and our freedoms and our liberty in this country since

the conception of this country. to have them challenged at this done because of inadequacy by people who are supposed to it was one of -- the gentleman that has been identified as helping with these bombings and things that just happen in boston that was allowed back in the country with an expired visa. why should i give up my rights, my freedom, my liberties to get anything because somebody is sitting on their bum and not doing what they're supposed to be doing? a could be corrected by people doing their job. host: thank you for the call. two historical examples to bring to your attention from the "time" magazine piece.

, the incidents that have now been accounted during the lincoln presidency. they point out that -- host: more recently, congress passing the patriot act and 2001 after the events of september 11, 2001. "o the both of what's "time magazine called the encroachment of civil liberties, but have done so to keep the homeland safe. that is our question this morning -- where do you draw the valance between these two issues? "time" bowl is online at time.com. whole is online at time.com. caller: the point i want to make is up here in north dakota we

have become -- not so much afraid of people from other countries. we are becoming more afraid of people from the united states, from other states. we have a little bit higher gun -- gun ownership, we have a sense of community, we keep our eyes open and ask questions. we do our own policing. i wish the rest of the country could take a cue from us. and be more responsible to keep this country safe. if every person stepped up our own securities, we would not give up these civil liberties. maybe that is part of the answer. he went for taking my call. host: thank you. one of the questions we talked to earlier -- just how far should we go? we have given up late ton of our civil liberties

and it has not done any good. our protector still don't talk to each other. we have a call on the democrats line. caller: two things. about those who are willing to give up their liberties for security deserve neither. the second thing is, every man- made tragedy that has occurred -- people have been warned about the culprit long before. long before. but the people who knew the warning either did not act or did not care. so what we're advocating now is protecting human beings against human beings. and we you can never do that. people will do bad things. so we can set up barriers, electronic things, but wherever there is human beings, things will happen. there will always be somebody

who is aware of this activity before it happens. but people need to step up and do their job. you cannot look at no incidents -- just look at the last 20 events over the last 10 years. and the amount of people who hear about it. host: ok, randy, thank you. people will give up some of there'll -- hey, steve, when someone says they will give up some of their civil liberties, ask them what their last name is. the alarming trend among suicides among middle-aged men and women. middle-aged suicides surge.

host: again, the headline is the rise of suicides especially among middle-aged individuals. issueo your calls on the of homeland security versus civil liberties. matt is joining us. good morning from indiana. caller: yeah, thank you for taking my call. i was watching a lot of shows yesterday on the discovery channel and pbs on security and terrorism, and it got me to thinking about the 1960's when i

was growing up, about my teachers teaching about the iron curtain and a communist countries -- the way they would treat their people. i looked up in the dictionary paranoia and paranoid. 1 -- a psychosis characterized by systemized delusions of persecution or grand jury usually without hallucinations. two, a tendency on a part of an individual or group toward a rational suspiciousness and distrustful mess of others. paranoid is characterized i or resuming paranoia, characterized by suspiciousness, or megalomania, and extremely fearful. these officials that were on these shows were in high- security positions over the last 10 years or 13 years, and they

were talking about these massive amounts of data and information that are being collected, and they cannot even analyze all of that even if they wanted to. so what good is all of this doing? "ost: the "new york times putting out on that issue the number of data that is collected in new york city with the thousands of cameras in and around lower manhattan, time square and elsewhere in the city. over 1000 police officers responsible just for counterterrorism. matt, we will leave it there. thank you for the call. thomass this point -- jefferson said god is who gave .s life and liberty this cover story from "the new .ork post" -- back on top

the spire rises to crown the freedom tower. the construction at the site of the world trade center. it is also the front page story of "the new york times." we have an independent call from texas. caller: i appreciate you taking my call. --t my, would be is that what my comment would be is that i do appreciate in a situation of boston all the cameras and things that were set up their that actually tracked down these young men that committed this horrible, horrible act against our country. so i know that we need reasonable security, but when , then itpeople control seems that they want more control. where do you stop?

then you are in a country -- like communist countries. if i wanted to live in a country where our government monitored everything that we said and did and where we went, i would move there. that i live in the united states of america. i believe that our freedoms are being taken away, although i know that there is a real threat, whether it is school bombings or people, our own citizens, that have issues and mental problems. they do horrible things. host: i will stop either because we're short on time time, but thank you for sharing your thoughts. jan has this -- i do not want to

live in fear, i do not want to run around with a gun. photographs and stories. this from the vatican. the the two popes together again with the headline "welcome home." pope francis welcomes his predecessor benedict xvi. ," lookinge "usa today back at key commencements over the years including ronald reagan's address in 1981 in which he said at the end -- that the end of the cold war would happen. if you're marking the anniversary of president kennedy's speech in washington, d.c. in which he talked about the nuclear threat. other amendments speeches in 2013. the washington post has a story from page.

for biden -- dreams versus realities or it -- realities. here what you can expect a down -- host: this network as we began officially our road to the white house coverage tonight. you can read the story online at lilco.com. the headline -- c-span's road to the white house 2016. vice president joe biden is 7:30 eastern time followed by senator ted cruz. all of this available on radio and online at c-span.org. thank you for your calls and comments on the issue of

homeland security versus civil liberties. you can read more details by logging onto time.com. coming up in a couple of moments, ben casselman will be joining us as we take a look at the numbers in his story about the shrinking american workforce. later, hedrick smith out with the latest book, "who stole the american dream?," will take your calls for the next couple of hours here on c-span's "washington journal" as we continue. it is friday morning, may the third. we are back in a moment. ♪ >> we believe that in opening up the gates of our memories, you are bringing the people closer together. you bring people to your realization of what a human anng come in a person, individual can do. and i think those people will save lives. saving lives while risking their own.

every one of them is a hero. >> on the 20th anniversary, i ask you to recommit to replace the direct memories of those who are still with us. god. so that no one could ever forget these stories and these lessons. and i ask you to think about how the historic slaughter and suffering of the holocaust reflects a human disease that takes different forms. the idea that our differences are more important than our common humanity. >> this week and on c-span bill clinton and nobel priests -- peace prize winner marked the 20th anniversary of the holocaust museum in washington, d.c. saturday at 1:30 p.m. eastern. meeting8:30, the nra

with wayne lapierre. on book tv this weekend, your question for the world turned upside down author melanie phillips in depth, live sunday at noon eastern. and this is the clock, book tv in london -- politics, war, history, religion and culture as we start a 12 week series with british authors. and on c-span3, the 1963 birmingham race riots. part of american history tv saturday at 8:00 a.m. and again at 8:00 p.m. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we want to focus on jobs and the account me -- on the economy. joining us is ben casselman. the way for being with us. let's begin with a recent story you posted about americans leaving the workforce. what is happening? guest: this is been a trend we have been watching for quite a

while now which is the labor force. that is feeble either working or looking for work. it has been trending. it is actually now, the share of the population is at its lowest level since 1979. so it is both ineffective recession but also a longer- term trend that we have been watching for a while now. host: what are the factors in all of this? short-termave a issue in a long-term issue. the short-term is the one we are too familiar with right now. which is that the economy has been week, job growth has been slow, so a lot of the people who want jobs have been giving up looking. they have been dropping out of the labor force and no longer searching for work. that is a major factor. but we also have this longer- term issue, which is that the share of the population that is working have actually been declining since about 2000. there are a couple of things going on there. the biggest one is the aging baby boom generation. people do not work as much in their late 50's and their 60's as they do in the prime of their

working lives. that is a major factor. we have also seen young people getting a later start to their careers. they are staying in school longer. so fewer people under age 25 are working. you put all of that together, and you end up with this long- term decline in the share of the population that is working. host: there is the summary on your recent story, which is available online at wsj.com. you pointed out the fall of the rates. it was adjusted the labor department is weaker than it appears. and secondly that unemployed workers are giving up finding those jobs. they could drift so far from the labor market that they will unlikely return when the hiring picks up. talk about so, we the short-term and long-term. the real risk is that the short- term problem turns into a long- term problem. that as people give up looking for work and they drift away, that we can never really get them back, even when the economy improves. if we think about somebody giving up looking for work, maybe they end up just deciding to say hey, i am retired now.

maybe they end up going on disability insurance. david a kind of drift toward the grey market or the black market and work under the table. the fear is that not only are they out of the labor force right now, but they may not return to the labor force when the economy improves. so that can affect our long-term growth potential. not just our immediate issue that we are facing. host: ben casselman, let's put this in terms of numbers. this is according to your .ublication -- 6.4 million 2.5 4 million -- $2.5 million the month before. put this in perspective in terms of the timeline. this month to month. who is leaving the workforce? guest: the numbers that we usually hear are the net numbers for the month. the number of people who found jobs. we say 100,000 people found jobs

in a month or a half a million people left the labor force. but those numbers are net numbers. that is saying that 100,000 more people found jobs then lost them. the numbers that we are showing in that chart their are just the total gross numbers. this is how many people left the labor force, regardless of how many of them might have returned to the labor force. actuallyllion people left the labor force from february to march. the thing that is critical to understand there is well over half of those people had jobs the month before. so those are not people who were unemployed and giving up looking for work. those were people who are retiring mostly or they are people who decided to go back to school or decided to stay home and raise a family. it is that other group, that three point something million, that were unemployed at the month before where we be concerned. we have to worry -- are those people who are dropping out because they can't find jobs?

share a story you posted with regards to the unemployment numbers coming out today, which continues to show the unemployment rate hovering past 7.5%. you call it the springs one. you say the basic marriages of the stone is as follows -- the economy began to add jobs in early 2010 only to see the progress sputter over the summer with four consecutive months of job losses. then it happened again. hiring picked up in early 2011, then falling off shortly -- shockley averaging fewer than 50,000 new jobs over a four- month hiring. . -- hiring period guest: we've heard this narrative of the spring sown. it started in 2010, 2011, than in 2012 we have a lousy jar -- job number in march. people are worried that it is happening again. i wrote that piece calling it a myth because i am skeptical of

this idea that there is really some seasonal pattern that is going on here. if you look at the numbers, a lot of the numbers you read worthy preliminary numbers. we had a zero jobs in august of 2011. once they went back and actually updated the numbers, we ,000 and added 132 august of 2011. which is not great, but better than zero. if you look at the economy over the past few years, we talk u about volatility and starts and stops. are we falling into a recession, are we about to take off? is different. the reality is that has been is grindingly slow but relatively steady recovery. we think that we are may be starting to gain momentum, then we fall back a little bit. we worry that we are losing momentum, then money -- then we pick up a bit. what we end up with is this plodding recovery that is better than what we're seeing in europe, certainly better than what we saw during the recession, but it just is not

enough to make us feel really good about the economy or to put people back to work, which is what is critical. are (202) 585-3881 currently employed, the phone number to call is (202) 585- 3881 (202) 585-3881 -- if you are currently employed, the number to call is (202) 585- 3881. if you are unemployed, the number is (202) 585-3881. -- have stopped looking for job, the number to call is (202) 585-3882. we have this from dale ridge. on the issue of no longer working -- how can these people give up? ben casselman, what are those individuals doing? guest: that is one of the key mysteries. when we hear about those people who are dropping out, we think, what are they doing? the answer is, this is part of what we're getting at when we say that the problem is maybe not white what people think that it is. so a lot of of the people who were dropping out are effectively retiring people.

maybe they're choosing to go back to school. i cannot find a job right now, so i'm going to go again a new new education, go build some new skills. those people are a little bit different than the people that we worry about who are truly just a out, sitting by the wayside. we really don't know that much about what is happening to them. we suspect that some of them end up on disability insurance. we suspect that some of them work in the gray market economy. we suspect that some of them and endomeless, and up and -- up homeless, end up in poverty. that is one of the things that economists are trying to research. host: if you google ben casselman's name, you will see wonkhe has been in the feud. this is what the story looks like. " isthe "wall street journal

wrong about labor participation. that while your information is interesting, it is not accurate. disagree on the interpretation of the numbers more than we do on the numbers themselves. i disagree on the interpretation of the numbers. i'm very sympathetic to his take. this long-term decline in how many people are working or looking for work is more worrisome then maybe i have given it credit for. his argument is -- it is not just about what has been happening over the last couple of years but this long-term decline is the result of a slowdown in the american labor force and that we have seen not only people retiring but also young people staying in school and people in the prime of their working lives choosing not to work. and that reflects how weak the economy has been from a job standpoint, it back all the way to the early 2000's.

that is absolutely true and a lot of this is these expected demographic trends. the extent to which our careers are shifting. people are spending longer in school. they are working longer. a lot more are doing white collar jobs. some of what we're seeing is a long-term shift. you are now working from 25 to 65 to 70. differentlittle bit from impact of a recession. host: jim is joining us on the line -- i'm just kidding.

between the rate and reality is about 7 million workers.not 3 million a much more alarming rate for the unemployment. dost: what we're trying to is to come up with some numbers for how many people who should be in the economy that are not. found somewhere between 3 .illion and 4 million the congressional budget office 4ys it should be around million larger than it really is. there are millions of people who in the labor force

but are not. and so we have a jobs crisis. we have gotten past the period in the recession where we were losing jobs quickly. theand i may disagree on longer-term decline but i think we are aligned in the idea that hiring has not been strong enough. the jobs recovery has not been what anyone would like to see. nearly 3 million fewer people working than we did when the recession began. time fornot a great the economy to start with. probably evens

larger. all the discussions can andalusite of the fact that the job market is not as strong as we would like it to be. host: we're taking a look at the jobs picture and the declining u.s. work force. john is joining us. he has stopped looking for a job. good morning. caller: good morning. todayaking a final exam at a college class. i am officially a senior after this semester. . was a realtor for a long time i sold cars. . ran my own business

i had three or four deejays doing jobs. calls.dle down to a few i stopped doing that a few years ago. job inu have not done a 10 years, you are pretty much unemployable. i have started to look into the recession. i have a theory. we have outsourced all of the managerial. manufacturing800 facilities that are no longer within our borders in the united states. the middle class managerial is no longer necessary when those jobs are gone. host: how old are you?

caller: 50. host: how likely that you'll be able to find a job? surviving? caller: my wife is an accountant. i go to college. . am a full-time students i figure real estate will comeback. real enjoy working in the estate industry before it collapsed. now. slow right i really blame nafta. we outsource all of the manufacturing jobs. the white collar jobs when along behind it. host: we will get a response. guest: this is the tragedy of

this economy right now, long- term unemployment. that is a question to some extent of semantics. there are a lot of people out there whether they meet the technical definition of unemployment. once you have been out of work for a long time, it becomes incredibly difficult to find a job. when was an experiment umes were sentnat out. once somebody had a six month gap in their resume, they didn't get any calls back. chance oncet get a

they have been out of work for a long time. being in school is a good idea. "what have you been doing?" i have been in school. that issue of long-term is a hugeent challenge that we are seeing and it is concentrated among people a little bit later in their careers are trying to make a shift so they can rebuild those retirement savings. nothing that's happened in the job market has helped those people. est: that is the point from on our twitter

page. guest: it is truitt we hear we hear it is true tales of discrimination. i think there is low question that people and their 50's are finding it difficult to get calls back. it can be difficult for people younger than 25 without experience to compete for jobs. they might be seen as a bigger risk. theolder and younger end of spectrum might be struggling. those in the middle might be in better shape. from john is joining us

brooklyn, new york. how long have you been out of work? caller: good morning. for about three years now. basically i send my resume to various professional headhunters and companies directly. i'm an engineer from my background. i am in my 50's. who would likege to continue working but not on a the-time basis, to add to quality of having free time is that companies are not very flexible in except it professionals with experience in working on a part-time or contract basis. not surprised at that and

taking advantage of the skills of people in there and 50's have. in then be a win-win workforce. host: thank you for the call. how many addition to people have jobs, what types of jobs are available? out therelarge pool that want to work. company is can have the pick -- companies can have the pick of the litter. "we will tell you if you can work certain shifts." how good are the jobs that are being created?

a lot of jobs are part-time jobs. theymight be temp job and might not carry it benefits. how do we get people back to good jobs? this issue.as wages and we need people to earn a those wages. the recent the focus has been on unemployment is people who are out of work are sitting on the sidelines of the economy. that ends up dragging the economy. it is a human tragedy for those people. we can get lost in the macro economics of this. the human stories are so real.

wages have been stagnant through this recovery. to the connected unemployment as well. that affects those of us who do have jobs. host: the unemployment rate is 25. over 16% those under the youth unemployment when you take into account the decline of the labor force and the official unemployment rate. guest: in order to count on employee, you have to be out of work and actively looking for work and to be available for work. graduate high school and discover you cannot find work and so you go to college, you are not unemployed. you are in school.

if you graduate from college and decide if you go to graduate outol or law school, you're of the labor force. you are not considered unemployed. we have seen an increase in the number of young people that stay in school. more jobs considered a college education. people know the job market is weak. if you account for the way those patterns have changed, the unemployment rate for youth is significantly higher. schoolhey finish law or graduate school with loans. guest: going to school can be a

good thing. to the extent people are graduating with heavy debt burden, that is a real challenge. being in school looks better on unemployedhen being . people can say, "i was not unemployed. i was in class building my skills." that those scars can last for a lifetime. people are missing out on critical years. that can affect how much they earn. host: billy from florida. how long have you been out of

work? caller: for the last three years. i am 62. i worked with a power company. i was there for many years. host: why did you stop looking for a job? caller: when they said the , more willersation be greeting you in spanish. born andtell you raised in miami, that is so true. you can find ai, job unless you speak spanish.

you must be bilingual. we're in an international world. why would i need to speak spanish? i've been out of work for so long. i started my own company. i sell hawaiian shirts online. you just cannot find a job without speaking spanish. i enjoyed the conversation. host: thank you. 62 years old. trying to do something on his own. guest: it is difficult for people who have been out of work for so long. what hist find out education background was.

that has been the case in a loss of service industries. jobs for high school graduates have been declining in the economy for a long time. recession.ed the you could get a reconstruction job. but we're back where we started . the lowerate jobs for level of the economy that can still provide people a pathway to the middle class, that is a huge long-term challenge that goes beyond the immediate challenges we're facing in the economy. from onehave a tweet

of our viewers, darrell rich. guest: there are a lot of economists that are critical of the way the stimulus was carried of theing the depths recession. it should have more directly targeted these kinds of projects that create a lot of jobs. argue it economists did not do as much good as it was touted. on u.s. spent a lot of money that with relatively little gain. the jobs picture has kind of disappeared from the conversation. we heard ben bernanke at the fed talk about jobs. we have not seen that discussion

in washington the same way. you don't hear a debate about another stimulus were about what government policies can create jobs or whether that is a proper role for government. it seems to have dropped out of the conversation. host: ben casselman from "the thank yout journal," for joining us. producer hedrick smith will be joining us. his new book is entitled "who stole the american dream?" later, we will focus on child care into the united states. you are watching "washington

journal" is friday morning, may 3. we are back in a moment. >> ronald reagan made mistakes on defense. willeated the war machine use to create so much havoc in the world and so much anchor and that made this and imperial power. that was a real negative. he did stand up for limiting the state, the government.

big government is not the solution. weigh down own -- the economy. the idea that people should make their own decisions -- he stood for all those things. in his column.us he needed to stand up for closing more of the deficit. ofwas the greatest opponent deficit spending there ever was. he left a legacy of massive deficits. that was a historical error of enormous proportions. >> more with david stockman,

some day at 8:00 p.m. >> mrs. grant was also interesting. there was an extraordinary roller-coaster existence. for most of their lives, he was regarded as an abject failure. unable to provide for their own family. popular he was the most man in the country. on the the union battlefield. >> julia loved her time in the white house. "the most wonderful time of my life." .he enjoyed being first lady

she felt her husband finally achieve the recognition he deserved. "first monday night on ladies." >> "washington journal" continues. host: the book is titled "who stole the american dream?" two americas." thank you for, being with us. your assessment of where we are? guest: i was just listening to ben casselman. that has been a problem during the recession but this has been going on the last 30, 40 years.

the productivity of the american workforce doubled 1975.n 1945 and years, ast 30 or 40 productivity has gone up 80%. in come of the average household has gone up 10%. ceo's up 350%. medical costs, educational costs, lots of other costs are going up. we are looking at this recession. we can get people back to work. it will not close the wealth gap.

corporate profits have gone up 20.1%. wall street is going through the roof. main street is stagnating. how did this happen? is it saying something that is structural about america? areproblems that i found much deeper. host: a disparity between what ceo's earn. why such a huge disparity? the difference is not between now and the 1920's,

1930's, and 1940's. we had a different business ethic going on. generalleaders -- drucker -- they all believed in stakeholder capitalism, sharing the growth and profits with everybody who has a state in the success of the corporation. it means the suppliers, the creditors, the banks, the not want theo do product to disappear. they believed in that. they believe it was wrong for insideo profit on

knowledge about the stock of the company. board and thehe ceo has shifted to shareholder capitalism. ceo is toon as a deliver the highest possible return to your shareholders. gains profitsital go to the top 1%. 50%. go to the top 2%, 3%, 4%. you are not getting much return compared to people that have hundreds of millions of dollars invested. ceo and topthe

executives with stock. 0.1 shot them into the top %. from thee was enormous attitude of share the wealth. they thought it was smart business to share the wealth. it is suffering from inadequate consumer demand. workers are not being paid enough. people are scared now. they are sitting on their money. that is having a damper effect on the whole economy. it is what is good for the whole country. the economics we're pursuing reporter. am just a

the evidence are clear. we are pursuing policies that make it harder to get out of each recession. it used to take months to get out of a recession. each time it takes us longer. we should be investing in our future. socks knockedour off by countries like china. i've been to china. much more modern. we are getting out of date.

worthe losing $1 trillion of growth. investment in the infrastructure. that is something we have done it in the past. teddy roosevelt built the inland waterways in this country. eisenhower built the highway system. buildingmy that we're areot building -- people arguing about the margins. go back and look at history. this is the american capitalism. it was done differently 30 years ago. host: i want to come back to that point.

you can join the conversation on facebook or send us a tweet or usa phone call. writtenthe powell memo, eugenes powell jr. to snyder. in essence, he said this. bookrite about it in your . is general george patton on the tank in western europe. lewis powell was a mild- mannered supreme court justice appointed by nixon.

of thea vigorous foe consumer movement. what he is talking about is very interesting. middle class prosperity in america was dependent on middle class power being used actively. it was a women's movement. there was an environmental movement and a strong labor movement. out ofse movements came the middle class. people believed they could influence washington, and they did. -- there was a 1970.day in0earth

congress passed seven major bills. richard nixon, republicans president and friend of ceo's. said --t had of the epa nixon. tell me about did he care about the environment? aboutver once asked me it. to make get captured by the bureaucrats at epa." unbelievable. there was is labor movement.

there was built last pressure on american corporate leaders. "you have to take the high ground." he goes on at some length. it is amazing what happened. within five months of the memo, the business roundtable was established. it is the biggest voice of corporate america. the number of offices that had for0,000 people working business trade associations. there were none of them before ronald reagan was elected. there was a revolt of the bosses.

we have been living with that shift in power. people from wall street going in and becoming secretaries of the treasury in both a republican and democratic administration. we're talking about the tax system. you name the issue. the influence of the lobbyist is enormous. lewis powellith the was p and the memo. fertileage fell on ground and resonated with the business leaders. host: the book is titled "who stole the american dream?"

smith.st is hedrick he covered russian politics for "the new york times." our phone lines are open. let me share one more portion of the book. let's hear from michael from missouri. good morning. caller: good morning. i agree with what mr. smith has to say. it is refreshing to hear somebody who seems to have a clear understanding with what is going on. i have been unemployed for about a year. it is difficult to find a job. a lot of americans don't understand -- jobs are being

outsourced. we demand cheaper products. those come from china and other countries. i wanted to remind everybody that money is just an idea. it is based on gold. .old is shiny and pretty we could solve all of our problems if we were willing to understand that money is just an idea. thank you, michael. guest: i am sorry to hear about your story. once people are unemployed, it gets hard for them to get back in the job market. so many american jobs are being

sent off shore. also jobs in the banks in new york and at places like microsoft. we have a tax system that is a little bit crazy. had 78 major corporations in 2010 thatom 2008 to our zero profits -- electors, pfizer, you name -- general electric. they got certain credits for investing in research and development. they get enormous credits if they make those products overseas. they can have another factor in

china or move one to malaysia. it is crazy. labor department is releasing the latest unemployment rate, 7.5%. the economy adding about 165,000 jobs. there are four. million unemployed workers. the unemployment rate for america's youth is 16%. guest: those of the official numbers. it doesn't count the people who dropped out of the job market, 2 million.o 3 we have fewer people in the

workforce then when we started the recession. are desperate and finally stopped looking. if they are not actively looking, the labor department does not count them as unemployed. the numbers are higher. from fairfax, virginia. asler: cbo continue corporate taxation. overall taxation is progressive, they say. they said this for 10 years. increased these progressivity. tst year we spent $5.6

.illion federal, state, local then there were indirect costs. trillion.ut $8 .5% of that is wasted each year we're wasting $2 trillion. you want to increase taxes again. we already had a tax increase that increase the overall effect of progressivity. waste?'t we cut the would that be a better idea? guest: everybody is unhappy when the government says they are

going to cut waste. it rarely ever happens. the pentagon is the biggest single bureaucracy. budget.he biggest if you start going after the weaponsending -- manufacturers have spread the cost of any kind of weapons system into practically every state and every district. they can go lobby and member of congress. "you are going to lose jobs in your district." thehould understand american tax system is taking the lowest percentage from the

economy in 60 years. it is among the lowest of the advanced economies in the world. the problem is whether the wealth is being jobs ared middle class being created in this country. a lot of the spending problems in terms of the budget would get smaller if we had an economy that was growing better. we would be more competitive as a country. host: you began in south carolina, stationed overseas, moscow. many years with pbs. ,uthor of a number of books including "who stole the american dream?"

what makes a good reporter? reporterthink a good has to be curious about the world. i was trying to understand how it got into the mess we were in. cairo and in vietnam and for a while in paris. cover the civil-rights movement . those were magnificent stories to get involved in. you have to have a curiosity about the world. a good reporter has to listen. here i am talking. i find a lot of the media is doing a lot of talking and not much listening.

in ourt get much depth reporting today. we need to be working at that. we need to be giving more content to people. people don't understand what is going on. he has lots of time to dig into facts. most people do not. they count on us to provide them and understanding of the world. we are bombarding them with bits of information. isme, connecting the dots important. i wanted to understand what makes the russians tick. i figured my job -- i've learned

russia. i learned it well. i thought my job was to translate russian society and russian thinking and their mind so to the americans americans could understand who they were dealing with. the best reporting on terrorism are people that help us understand that mentality. what do we need to do to disarm that? we have to go after the bad guys. we need to go after the problems underneath. economy.g in our own "who one of the themes of stole the american dream?" is

political culture. ote.me share a qu guest: the change is just staggering. fought.ies have always if you go back to the 1950's, past., legislation got what has happened is we have become polarized. we have gerrymandered districts. 1812, politicians

have been drawn blinds to profit their party's. and safeafe seats districts. computer software can help you define districts down to streets to tell you how to squeeze out the maximum number of a safe district. aret 10% of the house seats contested. seats,u have those safe the opposition party gives up. many of the party regulars to not vote. you get extreme candidates on both sides. they get elected and shout at each other.

it goes to gerrymandering. have institutionalized it to the point that we are frozen, paralyzed. we used to have disagreements. on may be seeing compromise the immigration bill. that would be a good thing. people in the center will say, this will move us forward. we need to do that again and again. there are lots of reasons. reinforcing these divisions that we have in incomes. .ridlock favors the status quo guess who benefits from the status quo?

look at the tax cuts under reagan. ion.rill the bush tax cuts added another $1 trillion. even for the wealthy people, that is not smart because the economy is not going to grow. gridlockics by being , gridlock is stopping that from happening. host: you get more information about "who stole the american toam?" by logging on hedricksmith.com.

air., you are on the i worked in real estate in new york. fixedst-rate on a 30-year loan should never go below 8%. the lenders are getting the money at 6%. elected,ton was greenspan lower the interest 6%. from 10.5% to we all refinanced. that means the fed is giving the money to the lenders at 4%. it has a big effect on our economy. you have tohings

dropped d is 1945, we the atomic weapons on japan. steel mills.eir host: thank you for your call. today."es in "usa the rates are down to 2.5%. forhis setting us up another fall? money.it was easy basically money coming from china that were operating on. money that people were borrowing.

owned 7% ofeowners the value of their homes in 19 70. that dropped to 20%. stock of housing is worth roughly $20 trillion, going to6 trillion, big investors on wall street's. that's the biggest transfer of wealth. we ran the mississippi river upstream. $6 trillion. that is enormous. the economy was in trouble.

.e were not generating growth on yourd get 100% homes. consumer demand is what drives the american economy. people were not being paid well. the savings accumulated gave the drive to the american economy. , awas a handful of smoke handful of financial smoke, largely created by the federal reserve. they were getting people to borrow. there were generating consumer demand by generating more debt. bank debt went up faster than

consumer debt. some people just like to talk about government debt. we needdebt is high -- to pay more attention. host: vivian, good morning. caller: good morning. the rich people still the dream from the middle class by taking these jobs and shipping them overseas for cheap labor. that is who stole the american dream. the congress are not helping the people to get the jobs and to build the roads in our country. everything is overseas for cheaper labor. the rich people did this to this

country. guest: there is a lot to what vivian said. haveinancial elite benefited enormously while the middle class has been troubled. the shipping of jobs overseas has been costly. .t used to be cheap labor right now it is tremendous subsidies from the chinese government. labor costs are going up in america and static in america. the former ceo of intel said he inld build a new chip plant china for a billion dollars less in china than in america. the chinese government either gives them the land or sells it

to them for practically nothing. then they put in all the resources that they need. that gives them a tax write-off. it is a serious question about whether that is legal. has gonean legislation part at the japanese and said you're doing something that violates the world trade laws -- the chinese. we need to get tough with the chinese. host: isn't part of the problem the debt that we go china? question. you don't have to have a trade deficit if you're in an advanced economy.

we had a trade deficit that totaled $6 trillion. germany has an economy like ours and face the same problem with china. trillion trade surplus. there were preserving good jobs and keeping them in germany. corporationsgs our told us we couldn't do and remain competitive. much mores were competitive than we were. we're pursuing the same strategy we pursued the last 30 years and it has been getting us deeper and deeper in debt to china. host: we welcome you on c-span radio.

our guest is hedrick smith, author of "who stole the american dream?" froms hear from brett arkansas. caller: good morning. hello? ok. there is not one single poor person that is poor because someone else is wealthy. machinery automated for a living. the politicians seem to focus on the problems that benefit their constituency. poor.ch against the and into a plant every day look at their processes and fair at ways to figure out their productivity through automated

machinery. one of the biggest problems we have that is not addressed is people are not responsible and more. ipods, theirir phones, they homes that they cannot afford. the whole housing crisis, we had able refinancing their homes so that they could take vacations and other things other than save them money like they should do. they want to bring rich people of the have a large part responsibility for the mess we are in. thanks for the call. guest: i don't think there is any question that people are responsible for their own situation. 22 million people are looking for jobs today. it is not their responsibility. the economic system is not generating the jobs. you cannot lay it on them. if they are unemployed,