she was able to accomplish that. host: many thanks to all the folks at the grant sites or run a country that brought you that here tonight and to the good people at the white house historical associations. and that concludes our discussion of julia dent grant. our thanks to our two guests for being with us. guest: thank you, susan. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013]

>> next monday night we will explore the life of the first lady lucy hayes, wife of president rutherford b. hayes. she banned liquor at the white house during her husband's administration. what next monday live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span and c- span-3, as well as c-span radio and c-span.org. r website has more about the first ladies, including a special section, welcome to the white house produced by the white house historical association. chronicles life in the executive mansion during the tenure of each of the first ladies. with the association, we are offering a special edition of the book, "first ladies of the united states," presenting a portrait of each of first lady. the book include spots for

michelle obama about the role of first place throughout history. it is available at $12.95 at c- span.org/products. c-span, created by america's cable companies in 1979, brought you as a public service by your television provider. formre commerce secretary under president george w. bush, carlos gutierrez was among those participating in a discussion on u.s. and decoration policy. the migration policy institute hosted this in 90 minutes event. >> good morning, everyone. ofcome to the joint effort the wilson center.

the title of the report -- and i am sure you have seen the reports and outside for you to take along -- is "think originally." globally." this report has tried to rethink how the relationships in the region, including the relationship, but perhaps more importantly, the development and growth within the region, in which the region can compete more successfully in increasingly global world might become much better over the next decade and beyond.

the key words here are "regional" and "migration." we need to do something, and in order to do so we actually started by looking at the migration status quo, its causes, consequences, and then we tried to look into its future, but we did through a regional lens. haveions to problems that divided parts of the region and the united states can only be found in the region, and the united states is part of that region. for migration in the future to be a matter of choice, not desperation, and in order to make it a non-issue, the same way that migration from so many other parts of the world are non-issues, it seems to us that

it must be overwhelmingly legal, orderly, and safe. and we also think that in the future people who migrate within the region must increasingly have the skills and qualifications that can help them succeed, can help their families and households grow, and can take the migration issue as an issue off of the policy and political agenda for the region. of course, getting there from here requires a lot of work on all our parts. economic growth must be sustained. political stability must be enduring. the rule of law must put out more roots.

social development must continue to grow. borders must have integrity, and we have dealt of course -- they must be dealt with more efficiently, and we need to do this together as neighbors, and personal security must become the first priority of governments in the region. we can do those things individually as countries, as people of different countries, and i am certain we will do so. but i think we can do it together as a region, and this is really what it is that this migration study group has tried to do. investingthat systematically in the region in building up human capital can create a better future for all those in the region, in a

competitive world that will require much better prepared workers. what we are going to do is we will have almost a parade of important people who have invested an awful lot of their time and their political capital to address this issue. we will start with president zedillo, who has a video message that we will play in half a minute, and that will be followed by secretary gutierrez, who will speak to recommendations of the report regarding immigration reform, but always thinking that immigration reform must get into the life blood of the region rather than simply be something that the united states has to do.

his remarks will be followed by vice president eduardo stein, who will talk about key issues in the region, and between remarks, we will have our own doris meissner and andrew they just came back in, to sort of pick up some of the comments that they would like to make. fromwe will hear ambassador jones who has had a great deal of experience on the key issues of the report, not just the u.s.-mexico relationship, but a keen interest in education, and then we will hear from luis rubio, one of the public intellectuals extraordinaire in the region. also, after the presentations,

i will sum up a little bit and then open it up to questions. good morning, and thank you very much for coming. [video clip] >> i regret that outstanding commitments do not allow me to be with you for today's presentation of the final report of the regional migration study groups. notwithstanding my inability to be with you in person at this significant event, i want to express my deep satisfaction for the work done there. the report is of enormous relevance, not only for its sound content, but also for its timing.

met the study group first in february 2011, little did we know that the policy and of our work horizon, circumstances would it change rapidly for the better, making the possibility of immigration reform in the united states more likely than it has been in many years. then the robustness of policy recommendations contained in the report, its publication now at the start of what promises to be a hopeful time of debate and decision on this important subject conveys significant value. participantst the in that debate will appreciate that our study has done much to map adequately the to profound economic, demographic, and societal forces that are reshaping our increasingly

interconnected region, comprised of united states, mexico, el salvador, guatemala, and honduras. the study has also taken great strides toward developing and articulating a collaborative approach to immigration and human capital of the element that can help build a stronger social foundation for our region. andeetings and washington central america, mexico, along with research undertaken with background reports were ultimately intended to produce recommendations based on a sufficient understanding of political, economic, and social realities in this incredibly diverse parts of the world,

policyto balance ambition with realism and intellectual humility, we have tried to give practical answers to the fundamental questions of how can our nations collaborate to ensure a safe migration, and how can they sustain economic growth skills and qualifications demanded by the labor market? the study group's final report seeks to promote policies that will benefit each of the countries examined, but not to advantage in the country over the other. one thing is clear -- getting policy right is important to the competitiveness in a fast- changing global economy.

i am hopeful that the documents admitted today for your consideration will earn a place as an important reference in ongoing debate, that it will help governments of the region to execute sound policies of migration, labor markets, and human capital for the sake of their own national development interests. i express my deep gratitude to all my fellow commissioners for their committed guidance, in particular to my esteemed co- chairs gutierrez and stein. i want to thank the valuable intellectual leadership provided all along by andrew selee, meissner, and demetrios papdemetriou. let's make it for growth and

development in our countries. thank you very much. >> thank you, and i should say thank you, president zedillo. the president started us off in a way that he typically has done in his public service as well as his work in this endeavor, and that is by touching on the key themes in a fashion, because this has been an effort that is very expensive.

has been an effort that is very expansive. we are talking about very big themes here, very long-term commitments and efforts, but nonetheless, things have to start somewhere at some time, and these very important issues of how migration really fits within the broader context of well-being for each of our countries as well as the region overall is what it is that we have tried to get our arms around and begin to point to in this effort. now, president zedillo talked about the fortunate elements of timing. timing fell in a way that we would never be able to anticipate when we began this a few years ago. where the timing is concerned,

i want to stress that we all realize that what it is that is going on in the united states at the present time with immigration reform and immigration reform debate being, again, after many years on the front burner, is something united states has to solve domestically on its own. we are very much recognizing the individual characters of each our countries and our political systems. at the same time, whenever it is we do in the united states on immigration policy, and on fixing a brokenness of the system, whenever we do will have critical applications for the region, for our relations within the region, and for the features of all of our countries in north america. it is trying to deal with the sovereign nations and what each of us are doing in our nations,

the fact that we are interconnected, and these are ultimately themes that deal all of us. i am turning now, though, to our second co-chair, a person who has been involved in a broad set of issues, with the domestic debate and discussion, carlos gutierrez. he served in the second bush administration, and he and michael chertoff were the point people for immigration reform. he has remained interested in the issue within his party as well as nationally, and we are very pleased he has been part of this effort, and i am pleased to be a book introduced him and him to come to the podium at this time.

secretary gutierrez? >> this is the perfect moment to talk about a new vision for greater prosperity and competitiveness in the region. this week the senate will mark up legislation that the u.s. very much needs in order to make the u.s. immigration system more responsive to economic conditions and labor market needs, and, very importantly, to make the u.s. more competitive. i want to emphasize one thing, that is, immigration reform will create more jobs for american citizens, and i will repeat that. immigration reform will create more jobs for american citizens. president obama has returned from a meeting with presidents of mexico and costa rica in

which he and his counterparts emphasized the enormous economic and human interconnectedness of the region. they agreed to move forward with a number of educational initiatives that are also in our report. we believe there is a lot more to do in the future. first of all, we have 52 million individuals of hispanic heritage living in the u.s. 36% were born in another country. of those hispanics born in other countries, 14 million were born in mexico, el salvador, guatemala, or honduras. that means three out of four come from those countries. persons born in these countries come to more than 35% of total immigrant population. some of the recommendations that we make in our reports are in the senate immigration bill. we hope they remained there as

legislation makes its way through congress and to the president's desk. immigrationhe proposal that has been started in the senate is very positive, the right thing to do, and we need to move forward. we are looking beyond this legislation. we are looking down the road, 10, 20, 30 years, and looking at the changes that will happen in our region and making certain recommendations beyond what is in the legislation. i will give you a few examples. we recommend exploring small programs and which the federal government could work in partnership with states and localities to create special preference visas as part of an economic development plans in areas of the country that are de-populating. the study believes any new

program or visa should include incentives for what we call positive circularity. that is, encourage or back-and- forth movements that allow migrants to pursue opportunities on either side of following the ebbs and flows of demand. today date we think of immigration too one- dimensionally -- there's only one path for immigrants, and that is either you go for citizenship or you are not a real immigrant. we believe the future is a lot more about strategic circularity, where people spend time in a country, in a given job, with special skills that

that country needs, and they can circulate back to their country, and that is more of a future we foresee looking down the road instead of a static one-size-fits-all. not everyone wants citizenship. what people want is the opportunity to grow and contribute and make the region more competitive. all these should be reviewed by agencies with assessing labor market conditions and making recommendations to congress and the executive branch on adjusting fees of levels. -- visa levels. let me just say in 1970 mexican women had on the average seven children. in 2010, that number is a little bit higher than two. will come a point in the not too distant future that mexico becomes an immigrant-receiving

country, very different from what it has been over the past decade. mexico,commend that guatemala, honduras, el salvador, also update and modernize their immigration systems. we also believe he should all have a shared accountability for border security and enforcement. thank you. [applause] >> well, the secretary has given us some of the key ideas that have to do with the u.s. immigration system and then what the possible feedback loops or resonance for those changes would be within the region. i think what we are trying to

stress very heavily in this work and in this report is really changing the incentive structure, changing the dynamics of migration in the region so that migration is an issue of legality, it is orderly, it is based on principles of fairness, certainly, it is safe compared to the perils of the migration takes place today, and in that way there is a respect for rights and a basis on which to observe and enforce rights. but the point that was made about positive circularity -- and i like that term, because as compared with a certain circularity -- is one that i want to emphasize in terms of the way in which we could look at a different future, because

the way that we have understood circularity has been seasonal. people coming for several months, picking crops, going back, remittances flowing, and all of the things that go with that that have been by definition very difficult, because that kind of circularity tends to create a very unequal relationship and worker, itr tends the workers who have no other chances or choices in theirsocieties, communities, and a great deal of the talk about migration has not focused on the difficulties that traditional form of circularity, what happens in home communities, the difficulty

of enforcing the rights of workers. the kind of circularity that the secretary is referring to and the kind of positive circularity that is envisioned in this work, and, i think, in a way that in many provisions of the current proposed senate bill outlined is a circularity that is really more in the realm of mobility, mobility that has to do with a range of skills, economic needs, and human capital, capabilities across the skills spectrums, choices, movement, an opportunity for people that are based on their own growth and on the growth of economies, where it is that opportunities exist. so that one of the things we hope will come out of this work and one of the things to which

we are committed at the migration policy institute and the wilson center is to use this work as a catalyst among our countries for developing the kinds of training programs and the kinds of work force and educational investments that will allow for cost of circularity as compared with traditional circularity, which has tended to be limited and ultimately does not contribute in nearly as full a way to a broader development outcomes as migration could contribute. so that one of the things that we hope will come out of this work and one of the things to which we are committed at the institute and center is use this work as a catalyst.

so, with that as an additional dimension to what it is that we are talking about here, i would like to turn to our third co- chair, vice president eduardo stein, who has been in a less formal way returned to service for his current government, where he serves as an advisor and has been deeply involved in bringing the next generation of guatemalans leaders forward. >> when does the us -- [speaking spanish] one of the strategic elements that as a study group we wanted to put forward at the very beginning was -- how to move away from a [indiscernible] gatekeepers approach and move deeply into a network approach. because we could not tackle the problems and complexities of migration agendas in this region with the sole perspective

of how to control flows. also, because we could not approach them, that is another perspective in the richness of the report. only from the perspective of migrations specifically. we needed to look at other issues as well. however, the other issues are so complex in themselves as well that it is like walking barefoot on broken glass. and that is why the efforts that the different talents who were summoned to work at the set study group tried to approach this entire set of perspectives from a very detailed study of what had happened in the region in the recent decades.

secondly, what was changing in the region in the recent years. i want to " a few lines from the summary. the longstanding assumption mexico and central america, having endless supplies of less educated workers were routinely physically demanding, or lee paid jobs in the united states, it is becoming less and less accurate when it comes to and come in the years ahead, with the right reforms of central america. so, i want to begin as well by emphasizing that the countries of central america faced a unique set of circumstances. we have some important success stories to talk about today.

but for each success we have to recognize an ongoing challenge. first and foremost, i want to point out that there is no one simple story about central american development. highly our countries are interconnected in many ways. we face a number of common challenges and opportunities. ofration being just one them. that said, trends are uneven within the region. for example, guatemala has been experiencing a relatively high gdp growth since 2008. and since that great recession, in addition to continuing strong population growth for example, el

salvador and their recent experience of lower gdp growth and very low population growth, as compared to honduras or guatemala. just to give you an idea of what i am talking about, 30 years or younger, that is 70% of the population. these are very, very young countries with very, very few opportunities for sustainable jobs. the most important thing, though, is to generate the opportunities for our people. indeed, there have been promising job creations in economic sectors, such as hospitality, agriculture, and call centers, however, all of these countries confronted a common challenge, creating enough formal sector jobs with benefits and wages that can sustain families.

with the idea in mind that southeastern mexico and all of central america concentrates more than 30 -- sorry, 13% of the bio-diversity of the world. just in panama specifically there are more birds species that than in all of the united states and canada put together. the trend is not only in concerning -- and serving by a diversity, but taking advantage of it for productive export services in guatemala, honduras, and salvador. with control characteristics of greenhouse methodology, 10 meters by 100 meters for the facility can give way for a

good, sustainable in come of a 526 member family each year. family eachmber year. and yet less than 30,000 hectares are dedicated to this type of technological advancement in this type of productive effort. northernle in the triangle now live in extreme poverty, it is true. but for many families this is because they have received remittances from their relatives abroad, rather than because they are earning better wages. perhaps most importantly for what we are talking about today, educational attainment has risen in central america. but we are all aware of the fact that we need to improve of quality and relevance education at all levels. increase student detention in

secondary schools and expand access to high-quality post- secondary education is for those who qualify. in particular we need to make sure they're giving students the tools that they need to succeed in the real world. this means general communication and critical thinking skills, as well as the specific technical and, yes, english-language skills that the market demands. english is taught everywhere in central america, but only in private schools. i also wanted to put out that after dramatic increases in security, homicide, and other violent crime over the last five to six years, homicide rates in guatemala, el salvador,

have finally come to decrease recently since 2009. as we all understand, violence reflects what is fueled by institutional weakness and high levels of corruption with impunity in our countries. so, we know we have to do in order to do better for our people. thechallenges and opportunity for both the region people growth and the government is continuing and strengthening political stability, economic, social, and institutional reforms, and of course working closely with in the region to offer alternatives for migration for the people. in the long term vision of the study group, migration would be a real choice for them, rather

than a necessity. but until we get to that point, migration will have to continue to be part of the answer. and we need to work with our partners in the region to make sure that such migration is legal, orderly, and safe. guatemala and el salvador are taking important steps on traditional police reform. it is slow. it is difficult. it has proven to be complex and cumbersome. but is crucial work. in honduras and for other reasons, this police reform is facing daunting challenges. visa long-term solutions that will help to resolve not just individual countries but also a region to instill confidence publicst in our

institutions, to create real incentives for everyone to follow the rule of law and in so doing tackle the very serious crime and security challenges that are most destructive to those who have serious offenses against them. just one simple note about my own country, guatemala. close to 60% of guatemalans belong to 22 different linguistic groups, mostly of my and origin. -- of mayan origin. we as a country and as a society have had a long standing policy in place for 400 years already of discrimination and exclusion. so, this is another the mention perhaps to guatemala, but still very important to overcome, because they indeed have every right for citizenship within their own country.

we have also made great strides towards working together with the region. the study group has noted with approval mexican efforts to work more closely with what ramallah by issuing temporary border crossings for those who wish to visit, shop, and work in southern border communities. we encourage mexico to continue to consult closely with its neighbors. like it did in developing its recent migration legislation as it comes to terms with all that this important role entails. mexico indeed has already become a receiving state for hondurans, guatemalans, and salvadorans. although the northern triangle companies face a difficult road

ahead, in surmounting these challenges will we want to underscore today is that though each country must continue to persist in its own internal issues, it is now more important than ever that we build trust with each other and with mexico and the united states to commit to collaborative measures that can help to solve these regional problems. lastly, we believe that the next phase of the regional strength starts with the acknowledgement that the united states, mexico, and central america, and central american countries can shape the future in which working together brings benefits to each other and to them as a whole in a region that is much larger than the sum of

individual efforts. thank you. [applause] >> thank you, mr. vice president. let me quickly knowledge the director and deputy director of the latin american program and the board members who were a member of the study group as well. as you have heard already the numerous speakers, the study group is genuinely very supportive of what is going on in terms of the immigration debate in the united states. i do not think we could have planned the timing better. most of the studies have to do with domestic reform in the united states and hopefully this report will have something to

say in communication with those discussions going on, but group members have been very enthusiastic about what they see. on the larger issues we have a strong sense, with migration only coming to terms -- we tend to think of it as part of a problem that needs to be solved. either in u.s. law or in central america by stopping people from leaving. the central tenet of the report is that migration is a central part of competitiveness and job creation in the region. in a long-term how we choose to manage this, regardless of the immigration reform debate or specific changes in mexico or central america is how we come to terms together across the region in managing migration, it will have a great deal to do with how we manage jobs in the future in all the countries. this will continue beyond the debate in the united states and beyond specific debate going on now in mexico and central

america. you will hear next from one of mexico must -- one of mexico's most influential writers and thinkers, talking about the role of the middle class in mexico and the changes in mexico. let me presage that by saying that one of the things that makes this debate possible now, not only is there an immigration reform debate going on in the u.s. that is positive that we can feel good about, but as we heard from mexico, things are changing very fast and i am positive directions. growing educational levels in mexico, steady economic growth over time, a containment of violence, although it not yet a drop, but containment is a step forward. and with every step forward there is a new challenge. all of these speak of a changing country next door and changing countries in central america. this is a fundamental part of

the piece of why we're having this regional conversation now. >> good morning. thank you, andrew. as the report emphatically establishes, the u.s. immigration debate on reform is clearly a sovereign concern, but it should not miss the changes that are taking place south of the border. these changes have had an enormous impact on the flights of migration over the last several years. not only for the numbers, but for those who move, choir -- where they go to and why, where the past is very different from the present and will be very different from the future.

moste changes the important one is the one you just mentioned, which is that mexico is rapidly becoming a middle-class country. it is no longer the poor of old, although there are many poor people. fewer poor people means more disposable income for people with wealth, better ways of dealing with local job interests and life, people who find it necessary to migrate. above all for the following first, because there has been financial stability, meaning lower interest rates and a level of fiscal deficits that are very low. frankly, dramatization has liberalization

has meant for mexicans that the proportion of their disposable income that they spend on things like food stuffs, basic things in general, foods -- have come down in general. domesticwn by the noducers produced by competition, and leslie to -- and nafta has helped to strengthen the government's creating much better paying jobs as it is the decisive way into confidence for the region. the automobile industry, like electronics, particularly in the rural areas. there is basically an emerging middle class in the areas. decentralization has transformed the picture of the country. mexico is also undergoing a dramatic transition that

means population growth is much lower. and also means the standards improve more rapidly. individually that means that there will be partial migration. there has been an extraordinary process of change in mexico. especially in the region in general. the facts of the challenges and the daunting nature of some of them, particularly security and the rule of law, with possibility, mexico has decentralized, politically. it found that police and traditional structures were lacking and incapable of dealing with the most fundamental challenge of any government, which is protecting the population.

the challenge is opposed by for accountability. accountability. as the government establishes itself as a source of authority, they will be making immigration reform successful. a government in mexico committed to the rule of law could become a natural source of regulation. point, a critical changing mexico is altering reality. the more fundamental structure has been built and americans, i believe, need to see mexico and their central american neighbors as long-term partners -- partners in the development of the region. this is why it is about competitiveness in the report being stressed over and over. the movements of the people have been successful.

thank you. [applause] >> ambassador jones. >> thank you very much. it has been a great pleasure for me to be part of this study group. i feel a little bit today like when i was in congress. i had a colleague who ran for president. at one political rally he was the mets -- the last speaker months many candidates and it was almost midnight when he was called upon to speak and he started his remarks by saying that everything that needed to be said has been said, but not everyone has said it. i have the privilege of being the last speaker, i, with the last to talk about, something that has not been mentioned but i think it should be. if we are going to have a competitive region in this global economic area.

when i left a mexico with president clinton, he asked -- what was my advice going forward. what should be done? my comments were that if the enormous democratic political advances in mexico showed positive economic reforms that had taken place, let they would be strengthened by the most important thing. usch is that day and all of -- they and all of us can invest in education and infrastructure, most important of those is education. i have met with many in southern mexico, the other half of the economy was basically left out. i met with various individuals and, without exception, what they wanted most in life was a better life for their children

and grandchildren. they recognized that the way that they achieve that is through education and they were not getting it at that particular time. to the credit of the government this year and with the bipartisan support of the congress in mexico, they passed a major education reform act. i think it will add a significant difference in the future and the opportunity for mexico going forward. there have been improvements in education in central america, no doubt about it, but when you look at the region as a whole and you compare that region particularly to the area of asia, which for decades now has emphasized education and quality education, we are not competitive. we are not competitive as a region and we should know that. --need major expectation

education reforms. not just in central america and mexico, but the united states also, if we are to be competitive in this global economy. the study group calls for that. not only in primary education, but also education at a higher level as it bears on science, engineering, and mathematics. we are short in how we ought to be a fair point to be the most competitive region in the world. the best opportunity that we have for our children and grandchildren, that is the most important thing we can do in terms of creating a quality of life is better. if the u.s. congress through stupidity, irresponsibility, or a high degree of partisanship fails to deal with the pending immigration reforms right now, this issue of immigration, or migration, is not one to go away. it is one to be with us for a long time to come. but if we seize the opportunity

as i think that we can and we will, if we seize the opportunity and give particular emphasis to the role of education, not only education and basics, but education in relevancy, how does it relate to the needs of the global economic needs at present time and how do we train and retrain our young people and workers to take advantage of that opportunity? if we do that, the u.s., mexico, and central america, we will be the most competitive region in the world. we have natural and human resources. all we need to do is fine tune that and give them the education that they need. it has been a pleasure to be a part of this and we look forward to your questions. thank you. [applause]

>> it is almost unbelievable that not only has every member of this panel started -- stop within the timeframe, remarkable to me, at least, but they also punctuated the most important element of what the report is all about. the report is focusing on the future. getting there from here. we cannot do it unless we all apply ourselves in the areas that members of the panel discussed. education, and as ambassador mentioned, quality but also relevance. i do not want to make too many people unhappy here, but perhaps we should consider that we have enough ph.d.'s in political science and national affairs and perhaps we need many more people who are engineers and scientists, mathematicians.

thatok an agreement focused on this kind of education, if the secretary and the vice president make extremely important points about what it is that we need to theow, we begin to make investments now that will take us to a different future than the one we have encountered in the past 20 to 30 years. it is -- if the essence of this report were be -- were to be reduced to just a few words and those words could be changed, opportunity, and hope, change involves us looking at things the way that they are. not the way they were three

years ago, five years ago, 20 years ago. we had the extraordinary changes that had taken place in so many countries in the region. looking at mexico and el salvador, of course guatemala and honduras, and how much of an effort they are making, if you look at the kinds of investments that were made, if you look at the facts that they have had on their relationship with mexico, half of a billion dollars in two way pay, if you think this is an impressive number, let me give you numbers that are far more impressive. particularly the united states. almost 44% of the total trade is u.s. trade to mexico. otherer country, no bilateral trading relationship even approaches anything like that. othert, most of the bilateral trading relations are extreme wing -- extremely heavy

and the other side. what they sell to us. in over 40% of every product produced in mexico that comes to the united states, 40% of the content of that product is american. is comparable for canada 25%. everything else is further down the line. these are extremely important changes that most people are not aware of. we made up our mind, perhaps too easily, about what the region looks like and what the opportunities might be, and we focused on the opportunities, but the challenges are real. no one will say they are not. public security, the security of individuals, a critical element of government, of good government. these of the institutional

reforms that continue to need to be made. and needs to get deeper deeper. economic and social development that we can focus on more and more. be of those things will taking place, but we must get focused on the opportunity. because of changes that have already taken place. we biggest opportunity that see is to start thinking together about what kinds of skills -- how can we equip our citizens, each country on its own, but also latterly, thinking within the region how can we equip our people? the our people of succeed, country grows. when people really want to hold

onto their middle-class status, they make demands of their government. they create opportunities for investors. the more investors? the more purchases? the more confidence? the greater the opportunity becomes. once those opportunities begin -- began to spread, the region profits. it will not be easy. so, the last word that i mention in this part of my remarks is hope. we are all hopeful that this can happen. we think that the elements are already there. we just need to work hard at them. i think that political leadership now and across the region can make an assumed commitment as we move forward.

ultimately, if human capital is the ultimate resource, as we all say that it is, let's hope that we believe it. if it is indeed the ultimate resource, let's try to make sure that we bill that restores up and commit it to a better future for the region. thank you very much. there is awful lot more in the report. but it is done in a smart way. if you read the executive summary and the themmendations, recommendations are on all the topics that have been raised here by this superb panel. this has been a great opportunity for us at the immigration policy institute. we have been very proud to work with them to introduce this particular report.

thank you. now we will open the report for questions, etc., etc.. [applause] >> all right, we now revert to the stage. no more up and down. and open the floor to questions. i want to just _ what has been said in a variety of different ways. many of the people in this audience follow migration issues. of course, we have come to this through the lens of migration. one of the paradoxes, one of the things that is difficult in terms of policy and action moving forward is that what this says and what we know is that solving our migration problems with positive effects in the society requires moving

well beyond migration into many other policy grounds, particularly education training. but this is really cross cutting from the standpoint of how one mobilizes societies and move is an agenda like this. so, we really are, as dmitry said, with too many words, perhaps in some cases, are more general than we need to be, but we are really trying to push the envelope into the ways that migration connect with an -- connects within society to so many other endeavors in order to create the dynamics that ultimately create a much more positive migration picture. questions? the microphone will come to you. i am going to ask you to wait for it to come so that you can

tell us who you are in your affiliation. over here? >> hello, my name is mario hernandez. director, of course, western union. i work with a lot of immigrants here in the u.s., internationally, texaco and -- in mexico and central america. i would like to raise the issue of immigrant into promotion. entrepreneurship. through immigration reform you create jobs. emigrants are entrepreneurs. i know a lot of people have come here and created jobs. so, i think that the issue of

immigrant entrepreneurs should should be promoted. thinkingle are now about going back home. spendingnking about some years in the u.s. should be supported. comments? >> i think that everything the mentioned is right on target. when we had a legal system for immigration that was right for the times, there was a lot of circuit there be, that reposits the circularity.

positive curcularity. people had come to work for several years. then they would go to go home with a few dollars, perhaps some skills that would be applied in that economy. and they would be a benefit to the region. today circularity has almost stopped because our legal system is broken. people do not want to leave because they may not be able to get back in. so, ball of the unintended consequences that you can imagine are happening today because the legal system is not working. that is why the first step is immigration reform and why we support the senate bill and we think it needs to get through as quickly as possible so that we have a foundation that we can build on. i agree with what you said, very good points. thank you. maye have data that

demonstrate the point that was just made. until the 1950's, the number people who had immigrated to the united states, people had gone back. people who do not always come work here, work here and live here, retire here and die here. part of the reason that we have seen this pattern in the last 20 years so is because we have an immigration system that has not really look favorably upon the ability. whether it is the borders or the legal system the way it happens.

changesber dramatically. our narratives are all about people wanting to do what we discussed. increasingly, a small proportion is going to be more nobility immigration. rather than immigration immigration. i think that the secretary was very articulate in insisting that in the report, i think did a good job of discussing this. creating opportunities for people to actually go and invest. fail and still be able to come back. a ultimately, this is what you want to create in the opportunities.

>> andrew? >> to the question from mario and dmitry, first of all, i think that if you look at the numbers there is a disproportionate amount of work done by immigrants in this country. high-tech, there is something about immigrant on japan or ship that has worked in this country -- immigrant on sharpener ship -- entrepreneurship that has worked in this country. the patent office is proportionally immigrant. i the attorney's side, and know that some of you have been involved in these experiments, a growing number that has happened organically in these organizations, particularly mexico and el salvador, they support small business creation back home. people have invested roughly $20,000 into small communities

back home. some of these may succeed, but increasingly there is a movement towards doing this in mexico where we have seen support over here. to actually try to support these initiatives as well in ways the become sustainable. small businesses look for new markets to figure out how to register legally. there is a lot of beacons do in -- a lot we can do in this country by helping the americans navigate these central american countries in terms of capital back home, seeing them as successful, plus i will not change the whole government. but it may change small towns that have other opportunities in addition to the singularity question. question.cularity

people who actually came to this country for a while, went back home, and plug themselves back into their chosen profession. that is something that all of our countries need to think about. there are some huge opportunities. >> there are 1 million u.s. immigrants in mexico. they are also part of circularity. there for two, four, six years, the comeback to the u.s. and they also come back with new skills. so, it works both ways. >> over here? >> good morning. thank you for such a fascinating report. i am interested in hearing about how you see some of these recommendations been -- being implemented. since they are across the agency in this country, where do you see the most potential? where can society leaders support and take action around these?

>> dmitry, you take a shot at that. >> the report, it has to be competitive. conservative report. we did not want to toss in their unverified atmosphere. atmosphere. we had worked on the three or four areas which had been growing and will continue to grow throughout the region. each of the cultures in the region had been making sustained investment. entire that framed the health delivery system. logistics'. everyone wants to move products and products throughout the region. and we need to do this

efficiently and in a way that protects the produce from point a to point b. very expeditiously. advanced manufacturing. mexico is producing more engineers today, i think, than the united states. aree are areas in which we all invested. there has been an enormous of vantage i am beginning to think together about how to invest more smartly on that. and we do that, we suggest pilot programs initially in which people get educated by common standards. things a very difficult to do. that is why it has been suggested that we start little pilot projects. we have work with unions, universities, who have tried to do that.

so, i am sorry about the noise. the whole idea of that is to begin to demonstrate that pilot projects, that this can be done. the mutual advantages can happen. i wills top ta -- stop talking. punctuating my words, you know. the microphone is unhappy. >> your question, what is the next step and what can we do about it? start in this country with the bill before congress. there are private citizens and different groups like that who play enormous roles, because of those who have been-on any side -- who have been negative on any side of the immigration policy,

up there right now they will continue to put pressure on members of congress. we have to get political. that is our key to get the other side of the story. in the other countries, central america and mexico, political action needs to be taken. in mexico, for example, ngo's have had zero effect in influencing their government. much think it is different. so, expressing yourself year -- to your government, encouraging all of the government, as was said, to start coordinating, we will use pilot projects. this issue of the english- language, which we have also emphasized as important, it is not as though we are trying to force english and anyone else, the fact is that english is the language of business and investment of around the world. if you are ignorant in that

language, you will not have the same opportunities. so, putting pressure on your own government is very important. >> this is one of the typical areas in which we need a regional understanding of how the problems are evil and and-- are evolving and what the solutions that are working are working in particular circumstances. even this -- even if the nation is not by political scientists, we do need a very high level of political dialogue amongst not only our governmental officers, but also amongst the people who can gaze into the solutions. solutions.e into giving you just a simple

example, in this so-called war against drugs, and we are trying to move away from these types of concepts, the emphasis unitedrdiction that the states has staged on the region, it places a burden on domestic budgets in many countries, requiring loads of new money to give effectiveness in these areas of security controls. when it could be dedicated to education, infrastructure, health services, etc.. so, we need to share amongst ourselves strategic visions on how to better allocate these resources and where each country responds to these pressures.

>> i want to add one example to what demetrias just said. dmitry said.n what if he thinks that the example of an nurse, or a nurse's aid -- we should be capable of assuring that the education of a nurse in mexico, that those standards the requirements of a u.s..in the if we have a shortage of nurses, which we do, then there has to be a mechanism that goes by in which we can convert together to -- we can work together to have that positive circularity. because the nurse may save for four years, go back to mexico with her skills -- that is how we foresee the future and collaboration across government. >> did you have a question? no?

right here, in the middle. thank you. >> i am from coast to rica. -- from costa rica. i came over from coast arica -- costa rica just to be here today. i work for the business association for development there. there are similar organizations in our country's. the migration has to do with being responsible with society. otherd like to know what plans are there. are there any plans to share and discuss the report conclusion with the region? not just with governments and migration authorities? but with civil society? takese we really need to this discussion and this

approach to more countries. thank you. >> i think that maybe dmitri might want to emphasize that in the first place, the report is being translated into spanish, so it will be fully available. secondly, we will be doing a trip to the region, going to mexico and central america in the next two months or so, exactly for the purposes that you outlined. this is a discussion that needs to happen throughout the region and it certainly needs to happen with in central america and within mexico. we will try to be a catalyst for that. ais is very much seen as document and conversation starter things that ultimately mean to be owned by each of our society's individually, then collectively.

dmitri? >> this is a superb comment. i am sorry you had to file this -- you had to fly all this way to hear. but thank you for it. but the business community, they have an element in this. inarly they have something mind. mustrganizations participate in this. the community must be in tight roll, not just participate in this. -- integral. in studies from both sides, including civil society, at its best it does well, which is hold governments and the other actors accountable.

these the kinds of things that governments and the business community and organizations know they have to do. this is the future we have in mind and that the report proposes. >> just a second. >> good morning, everyone. i worked in adult services in southern california for the last 10 years and i thought it was interesting to hear these statistics in guatemala and honduras. 70% is under the age of 30. there is an aging tsunami in the united states. we are aging very quickly. i was curious as to what the population looks like in mexico and what you might have looked at as far as the opportunities, what they might be, and how these older adults go back and forth between these countries. just a second question, out of

curiosity, i know that in professional soccer uc a lot of multinational team's scouting players, like for here in the united states, switching national teams, it seems like they are a step ahead in seeing lots of individuals going back and forth, curious as to whether you saw that in your study. >> ok. would you like to comment? >> two things, quickly. -- democrats in mexico have the demographics in mexico have changed dramatically. the population growth, the birth rate is slightly above what demographers call the fertility replacement rate. so, there will come a moment, a time in the not distant future when we will not have as many mexican immigrants. becomeico will have to an immigrant receiving country.

also, strategically looking at the skills that they need in order to be able to grow. that is a tremendous change. that is why part of our recommendation is that these countries also modernize their systems to get ready for the future. the other positive side of circularity, when we think about the extremely positive, we are also mindful of the so- called brain drain. every not want to take nurse away from mexico. but we would do great with positive celerity after a period of time, going back to mexico, guatemala, forever, with their skills, contributing to their country.

positive circularity. >> thank you. >> please. >> one report that has something very significant about this, the notion of circularity has recently been matched as difficult with coming back to the u.s.. no one wants to leave. that has created enormous incentive for people to come, bring their families and stay, whereas if they are only coming to work, they can go and come back. they have no incentive to bring their families. discussedsues being over the last couple of decades, we would not be there if things were not so uncertain. how come the region's complement each other?

that means introducing things like changes in the front. -- and reforms. also in the areas that have been emphasized within the role of responsibility in governments. mexico has voting challenges in -- has daunting challenges in the rule of law. in dealing with these improvisations, nonetheless that have built the kind of institutions that they have decided to work with. that is the kind of stability being emphasized and that is why it is such a key region.

>> just to the provocation -- i apologize for my mismanagement of the english-language -- [laughter] guatemala and honduras, nicaragua, have been crossing both sides where several people were below 30 years of age in the population. whereas of salvador has curbing their fertility rate significantly. >> roughly 1 billion u.s. -- o f the 1 million u.s. immigrants lived in mexico, probably a majority or a large percentage live there in retirement and have been doing that for a variety of reasons. that is an enormous, industrial and economic opportunity for mexico and central america, but that requires skill.

not just nursing skills, but also technology in delivering health care and things like that. so, in the united states to have an aging population and in mexico a soon to be aging population with the need there and the cost of health care. -- is getting larger. so there is going to be more of a drop into central america. that will be a major economic opportunity for that region. >> dmitri? >> yes. i do not want to take -- three things. the one follows exactly on what jim said. people very often think about talent and skills in zero sum games. this is a positive sum game we

are promoting. more nurses, increasing the supply of nurses, the example in nurses. not only because the united but beforeaging, mexico knows it, it will be aging. mexico knows that the end of it -- is at the end of this demographic transition. two things will happen. not only with fewer and fewer new workers be entering the labor market of mexico but more and more workers will be leaving it as they age out of the workforce. these people will need a nursing services, and that is extremely important. but because of the way the health costs have been going in the united states and mexico and other parts of the world, one of the greatest opportunities -- i am sure smart people and mexico have figured it out -- is to

actually provide in strategic locations, also medical services, not just for medical services. to have an india operation at a cost of 1/5 of what it costs to do so in the united states. and often they are operated on by people who have graduated in american universities. the world is changing. that is what we are trying to emphasize. that is what english is important. that is why common standards are important. that is why we have to be thinking in the very near future at a time where mexico and thus are likely to be competing for other workers from the region, rather than us worrying about mexicans coming to united states to work outside of legal frameworks. an mexico is already

immigration country and on its way to becoming a significant immigration country. recent history around the world has taught us anything, is that what he should take 30 or 50 years to happen, which is a country those things now take 10, 15 years. once the opportunity -- in other words, once the basic ingredients for a country to become a major immigration country occurred, and mexico already has most of them, countries actually fill up with immigrants. they are sick in the same kind of opportunities that mexicans have sought in the united states in the past 30-50 years. >> we are going to have to have that as the last question, i'm sorry to say. we will invite the rest of you who want to ask questions to come forward after the event and we will have one-on-one conversations.

i will turn to andrew to give us a concluding sendoff. >> thank you to doris and dmitri and everybody at the immigration policy institute for putting this together. it has been a great privilege. let me say a special thanks to the cochairs and members of the study group to read this was really a dynamic group over time. we had the group coming up with all sorts of ideas of what needs to be researched, and then bringing this to a close and thinking what are the recommendations here. there is a great body of work if you have not seen it yet. go back and look at some of the research reports which are really stand-alone exercises that you would've some specific issues in the report. also look at the report itself which really brings cutting-edge issues here. words finish with a few that have been spoken by the other panelists. let me start with hope. demetri has said this is a moment of hope. opportunity is a word you heard several times.

this is a time where demographics are changing in mexico and central america. economic prospects are changing, perhaps violence patters are changing. there is a bit of hope and opportunity in those countries, not without challenges, but there's also hope and opportunity in this country. it is a moment where we we are talking about these issues. it is a time where there is hope and opportunity to think together creatively about how we get beyond migration is a problem and begin thinking as migration as an opportunity to enhance our competitiveness and create jobs in all of these countries. positive circulation, you heard secretary gutierrez several times, the notion we can create positive circularity among our countries. some people will still immigrate. we want to be an immigrant country. but also positive circularity which allows people to come and go and develop skills along the way. economic growth -- i will come back once again to hope. this is a time where we can

start having some of the day conversations yes, for the next few months we will be embroiled inspecific conversations the united states. there are very specific conversations going on about what people face general challenges for policy, but this a moment of hope and opportunity where we can begin to hope big. hopefully this report puts ideas on the table that are creative, out-of-the-box, and are worth a conversation within this region. thank you again to the cochairs and to the members of the study group. think you to all of you for attending. forhank you to all of you attending. [applause] >> a reminder, the senate will begin debating amendments to immigration legislation this week. we will have live coverage of the markup starting at 9:30 a.m. eastern on c-span.org.

c-span, created by america's cable companies 1979, brought to you as a public service i your television provider -- by your television provider. >> that are, a conversation with members of the obama administration on automatic spending cuts. next, our series "first ladies: influence and image" continues great we will look at the life of julia grant, wife of president ulysses s. ♪ host: serving as first lady from 1869 to 1877, julia grant relished the role. she once commented that life inside the white house was a garden spot of orchids. growing up in a slaveholding family, she ended up as wife of

the commanding u.s. general during the civil war. she and ulysses s. grant shared d7 years together that include the hardships of war, the challenges of politics, and eight years in the white house. welcome to our row graham, "first ladies: influence and image." tonight, julia grant. let me introduce you to our guests. of ourale is a member series. he is a longtime white house historian and the author of "the president's house." is a historian at the ulysses s. grant national historic site. she is also working on a biography of julia grant. i want to start with you. we last left the series with the johnsons after impeachment and the politics with the radical republicans in reconstruction in the south. it set the stage for us as the grants come into the white house. guest: well, grant's election

started off with the campaign -- let us have peace. people were really looking to grant to kind of bring some peace and quiet to the white house and to the nation after the war and the years of the johnson administration. 's initialwere grant efforts as he took office. host: those were the themes -- we were looking at his first inaugural address -- these were the themes he struck when he spoke to the nation for the first time? guest: yes, and he had the added advantage of being a hero, famous even in the south, if he wasn't beloved, but everywhere else, one million young man tried to imitate this particular stance he had. he was wildly popular and clean. there was nothing dirty attached to him. i think he was a natural. host: the country was ready for

him. so, talk about the first lady herself. . she had been the wife of the general. that brings a certain skill set along with it. what did she bring to the role in the white house? guest: she brought an incredibly strong supporting role to the president. their lives had been that way. she ultimately was very supportive of him. but shed argue and all, was supportive to him. they wanted to represent in the white house the ideal american family. for a fewnot there days when this huge portrait was brought in on an oxcart and hung in the red room -- the white house been -- had been open to the public since jefferson's time -- they put this in the red room, a huge picture of the grant family so the public could see it on the tours and see that this was their home, this was where they lived. this whole symbolic home julia grant developed. host: since you are working on

a biography, tell us about her personality and what kind of woman she was. guest: she was very outgoing. in some ways, they were opposites. -- they had similarities similarities as well. they both had a fondness of riding horses and reading. she was a very likable person. you get that not only from contemporaries of hers, but from her own memoirs as well. host: would it be fair to say she was the better politician of the two? guest: she could be very politically astute in some of her dealings with cabinet members and their wives and the public, but she would most often deferred to her husband first. host: do you have any thoughts on her and her personality? guest: she seems to have been very protective of her husband. she was not hesitant to give her opinion on things. she seems to be a woman who cut

her cloth, as they used to say, exactly where she wanted it. she knew what she wanted to do, what she wanted to accomplish, and the rest of the stuff could be arranged. host: she was unusual in the fact that she had been educated . she completed something like 15- 16 years of school. aest: yes, she had gone to neighborhood school as a young child with her siblings, and then to a female academy in the city of st. louis, a boarding school that she attended until about age 18. host: the grant administration is a two-term her. it was full of so many stories, it was hard for us to find a few to put on the screen to give you a sense of what it was like. in 1870, president grant and was successful in having the 15th amendment to the constitution ratified about giving people the right to vote regardless of race. of course still, not women. in 1871, the force acts were passed -- and that was anti-kkk

legislation. that was something president grant was much involved in. that was to protect voters in the south against the rising work of the kkk. 1873 -- we will talk more about this later -- the panic of 1873, a big downturn that resulted from some of the policies of the administration. in 1876, the battle little big horn was thought. that is some of the important points during the administration. as he brings on his cabinet, the story of the grant administration is that there were no strangers -- they were no strangers to political patronage. what kind of advisers did he surround himself with, and how involved was julia in the process? guest: most of the people that grant appointed, at least to his cabinet, he either knew of or knew personally. -- example, lp washburn

secretary of state washburn. it was kind of the thank you for having supported, for washburn having supported him through the war. others were business people that he thought would do the best job. some of them turned out to be not so press-worthy, as deserving of it. host: tone is often set at the top. what kind of tone to the grant set for their cabinet and administration -- does grant set for his cabinet and administration? guest: first of all, grant me decisions himself, which caused friction with congress, especially those in congress who thought he should consult with them. guest: the whole theme of the

era was great success. it was before the national panic of 73. '73.nic of whether it was in business or military or what, he was attracted to those kind of people. they entertain them, they associated with them, and it was certainly a more loose supervision by the government then today over what politicians did. the idea was that grant would be the chief executive over a great company. the white house was called the executive mansion. the executive mansion, this is where the executive of the great nation lives, and the congress was the board that ran the country. , butis oversimplifying that was the idea. granted not always stick with it. host: you know the insides of

the white house like nobody else. we have some video of the white house treaty room. we will show that to people right now. that was the room that grant used for his cabinet. we are looking at the pictures right now. can you tell us a live look about the table in the room? guest: they purchased the table. the grants purchase the table in the -- 1871. in philadelphia. has been in the white house ever since. it was brought back to use in the kennedy administration, but it was used through the beginning of theodore roosevelt administration. a very elaborate carved table, supposedly made for the same purpose. that room was a sitting room always. lincoln made it into a reception room where you took reports, clerks took reports to register them. andrew johnson took it in as a cabinet room. grant refurbished it as a cabinet room. other things you see here, the

sofa in the back, and different things, those were in the house at that time. it was a grubby her room -- grubbier room than it was today, spittoon's, political member. . -- political memorobilia. host: president grant was used to smoking cigars each day? guest: yes, he picked up that habit in the civil war. he was sent cigars and appreciation. he had so many, he began smoking them on a very regular basis. host: we invite your participation in our program. that is what makes it work for us this week. you can do it in a number of ways. you can call us -- here are the phone lines -- you can also send us a message

on facebook. we already have interesting questions coming in. find c-span's facebook page. you can tweet us. use the #first ladies -- #firstladies. julia grant, by all accounts, loved life in the white house. here is one quote similar to the one we used the white house -- used at the outset guest: she considered herself hostess to the nation. she was going to do her best to ensure that she acted in that manner that the public would have received very well. she did compare her time there to her life, her early life at white haven. i think that was more a reflection of the fact that it was the first time in many years that the family spent eight years together without separation. host: because of his war duties? guest: correct.

guest: part of her job as she envisioned it was to make this a model house for the nation. other first ladies felt that as well. it was part of grant's program. they entertained very lavishly, and not in a fancy, but an elegant sense. she handled that very well herself. grant brought his own cronies in as much as he could. he brought a cook in from the army for the chef at the white house. he would serve big roast beef slices, apple tried -- apple pie with cheese on it, and diplomats were horrified. julia let him go. another chef, a well- known chef in new york. he came there and turned it into a very cosmopolitan table. she was veryumes, stringent about rules. all the white house staff had

warned business suits. they were half guard, half staff. well-dressed. there is a story she tells her women- herself -- would come to noon receptions, and if you did not wear a hat, you are part of the house party. if you did, you were an outside guest. women from time to time would go into the coat room to take their hats off and come out, and mrs. grant said they never repeated that the second time. host: how was this received by the nation? ing waser thing happene there was a burgeoning press corps and lots of coverage of the couple in the white house. guest: people were so interested in him. and all the details of what he did. he would appear in public. and his friends would get in races down pennsylvania avenue with their horses. as you know, grant was absolutely a horseman to his soul.

his father dealt in forces. he was raised that way. grant new horses. he had quite a stable. he brought his own coachman to the white house. hawkins stayed there until the automobile took over as head of the stables. he was a black man, and wore the special uniform and manage the stables with his staff. rent would spend time in the stables -- grant would spend time in the stables. the public liked it because it looked good, successful, peaceful, and of course, the accumulation of successful friends, which was one of the sad things, he trusted people that he would not have trusted. that she should not have trusted. trusted people that he should not have trusted. guest: while there was this

opulent since on one level, it was very down-to-earth and the fact that there were four children at home. julia grant lopped off the backyard so the children could play. how people understand the economy of the united states at this point. it was the south still reeling after the events of the war? guest: it depends on where you were. louisiana sugarcane back on its feet, until the hurricane of 1883. you go into mississippi, it was pretty horrible. it was not all blamed on sherman. it was the collapse of the cotton market. the english went to india for cotton trade. the last few years of the blockade, if brocade -- it broke them. 6000 union settlers -- soldiers elected to settle in new orleans. gone witht all like " the wind." it was coming back, but it was a different culture. it would not be agricultural.

it would not have that until later in the 19th century. host: the north was in the midst of a great big industrial revolution. the days of the big financiers on wall street. tell us about what was happening there. guest: thanks in part to the machinery of war. guest: it was a continuation of the war and an expansion, and they were getting ready for the andennial of the nation showing off the advances that have been made in the past 100 years. most of those were technological advances, the old farming equipment to the new modern technology, transcontinental railroad, transportation was bringing people closer together, making it much easier to get cross-country. host: here are a few of the big things that happened or in the grant presidency. , them mentioned transcontinental railroad was completed in 1869 as the grants were coming into the white house. 1870, the establishment of the national weather service and the

issuance of the first forecast. 1871, the great chicago fire happened. in 1872, the first national park was established in yellowstone. as we just heard, the philadelphia centennial exhibition. how big a deal was it for the nation to celebrate its anniversary? guest: absolutely huge. it was almost like a world fair. people from all over the world attended it. it was really a time for america and to show that it was coming into its own as a world power. .uest: mrs. grant loved it she bought two things for the white house from their -- one was a shield that showed characters from milton's "paradise lost." then she bought a more enduring piece --endearing she hated the old james monroe centerpiece with mirrors on it -- she bought a hiawatha

centerpiece which was about this and it shows a canoe in the middle and hiawatha lounging on a bearskin rug. that was the new centerpiece for the white house. she bought it there on exhibit. it is still in the solar closet at the white house. host: on twitter -- how are first lady's's staff at this point in the process? guest: there was no social secretary then. usually the ladies got together and filled out the blanks for invitations. grant president and mrs. and the honorable blank and blank. their friends would come over for tea party and they would fill out the blanks. she had mary mueller as the housekeeper. is that the one who travel to europe with her? guest: i think so. guest: they were very close. she called her "most excellent woman." i daresay she helped with some of that.

most of the social duties, there might be a clerk from the office would -- who would help, but there was no social secretary until theodore roosevelt. host: here is a question about their days preceding the white house -- guest: i would say yes. , becauses, actually grant was still head of the army after the war and for a short while interim secretary of war. she talks about the reception that she held, they held in and that itn dc was a natural progression into the white house. guest: don't you think she was one of those women that attracted people too? she was a personable woman and she cared about people. when somebody had a hard time, she went to them. she was a nice person. apple were attracted to her. host: one of the interesting stories, it alludes to tensions

between mary lincoln and julia grant. julia grant would come during the war years, certainly sometimes with the general, but it seemed as though there were some bit of competition that mary lincoln might have felt. let me read you this little paragraph from a book called "rating the first lady'ies" she him. sick amanda juliett to leave the room as an royal courts. if the humiliating treatment was intended to provoke an outburst, mary lincoln failed. julia later denied she had any ill feeling about her treatment at the hands of the first lady. guest: i'm not familiar with that particular story. guest: i could've happened during the steamboat days when richmond was being defeated. there were problems there with

ms. lincoln. she is very kind and the recollections of ms. lincoln, but when those recollections were dictated, it was years later. 's tragedy had happened, her insanity and all of that. she was very jealous of lincoln and women. i cannot think of any reason for that. [laughter] she could be very ugly to people. a remark was made, there was a horse.force, -- host: we are going to see videos of a few of the grant's preserve sites. how many are there altogether? guest: there are several homes that are owned and operated by the national park service or the various states they are located in -- then grants tomb, and each

of the battlefields at connecting sites, and then there are some that are no longer there. host: the first one is in galena, illinois. this sounds fairly shocking, the -- but because of his great achievement in the war, when he came home, people built for him a fully furnished house, more than one of them. how was that viewed in the day? was that considered ethically appropriate to do? guest: apparently so. it was welcoming a hero. atst: look at the british wellington. it was done. houses were given to people in various places. it is unusual to see an american -- in american history, but it was certainly done with him. he had to sell most of them. they were fully furnished. the galena,l visit illinois house.

this was where the grants lived in the years after the war and before coming to the white house. let's take a look. it sets the stage for their presidency. [video clip] that 13home was a gift businessman from going a purchased to give to the grant family, in appreciation for his service during the war. julia mentions in her memoirs coming up the hill and being presented this lovely villa that she said was furnished with everything good taste could offer. this is the parlor which was the entertaining part of the home. of course, we know juliet was an avid entertainer. she loved it. the family spent quite a bit of time here in the parlor. we know mrs. grant and their daughter allen played the pn oh. you can imagine the family sitting here, the general and his favorite chair, the other boys listening to their sister and mother play songs for them. they entertained in here. julia and maybe alan played a song for their guest. grant launched his presidential campaign from galena, and his headquarters were located at

the desoto hotel in downtown galena. the day after his election, grant and julia opened up their home and the parlor for people, townsfolk, to file through and congratulate both of them on his election and the next step of their lives. this is the general and mrs. grant's bedroom. but that is the oldest piece we have in the house, probably the most personal. this is the original bad they brought to galena white haven, putting down roots in galena. they left it here even throughout all their troubles. this was always here for them when they came back. this has mrs. u.s. grant on it. she probably cap papers, pens, her correspondence in here for when she was either writing letters or receive them. for mrs.was important grant. her grandfather was a methodist mr.. growing up, -- minister. growing up, it was very important for them.

the queue they used at the church is still marked. -- pew they used at the church is still marked. we have a bible given to mrs. grant by the methodist episcopal church in 1888. this is the dressing room, the most personal space in the house relating to julia grant. this was the room she would come in to get ready in the morning, get ready in the evening, ready for bed, and to come in, maybe to get a little solitude from everybody in the house. we have a lot of personal things that belonged to mrs. grant. we have her sewing kit that she probably would have used to mend socks for the kids or the general, so a button on. we have pairs of her size for shoes that she were and some purses she would've used as they were going out on the town, is adding on a sunday afternoon. a majority of the furnishings we still have in the house belonged to the grant family -- belonged to the grant family when they were here. if they walked through the door, they would recognize this house and probably feel at home.

this was where he came back after he was a military hero. he started his political career here. was livingre he when he was elected, when she became first lady, and this was home to them right before then. host: regina crunk he asks us on twitter guest: they visited there for a while as they did at white haven but settled in new york in part to be closer to three of the children. their boys were living in new york city, and their daughter was in europe. part of it, we think, was social life in new york was a little bit more enjoyable for julia then galena or st. louis. host: the grants had five children, for who grew to maturity. maturity.o grew to

she renounced her citizenship. host: we just saw the family life that they created in galena, illinois. talk about the life they created in the white house. guest: one thing i would like to say but the family life, that makes me want to have been a fly on the wall, general grant -- as you face the white house from pennsylvania avenue, on your right, there were greenhouses built on the top of the wing, the west wing, not the offices, but just a straight wing -- general grant the between that and a house another room chad hadned-glass -- which stained-glass and a billiard table, and he would invite his cronies there from some -- the civil war to play billiards and smoke cigars and maybe drink a little and they would end up

going into the red room and taking anhe battles, object off the table and putting it on the floor, this is meant this, and reliving it all. imagine being able to see that. that is the information be they lived witht their friends. hayes'were very moralistic. they tore the billiard room down immediately. host: we also had some video from the white house family dining room. it was told that the grants would gather there for breakfast everyday. what is that room like today? guest: it is very dressy today. it doesn't look anything like it did. it reflects more theodore roosevelt, what theodore roosevelt did during 1902 an. there was always a clock on the table. you served through pantry through those doors on the side.

dishes were washed there. the family gathered there at this great big table. not every family did. through the door was then a hall and staircase and a big dining room where state occasions were held. in 1902, this room was turned around and incorporated into a dining room. it is the state dining room of today. four the grant family had children. were all of them living at the white house? guest: the oldest son received an appointment to west point under the johnson administration. he was coming and going. the younger children were still there. julia talks about the dining room table, how ulysses sometimes with the kids would play around, play games, and take pieces of bread and roll it into a ball of dough and throat at the kids, the boys -- throw it at the kids, the boys.

guest: she disapproved. guest: she also recalled upstairs in the private family area, the children and ulysses coming into her room about a half an hour before dinner, and they would all just sit and talk 'sd visit and share their day comings and goings. she would recall that fondly. guest: they were very lenient parents. i think fred was the most disciplined. then buck, the second one, ulysses a little less, and jesse, he actually talked back. he could checkmate a lot of the things his father said. they thought it was funny. i don't think it hurt any of them in later life. host: here is our first color. -- caller. caller: hi how are you? i would like to know more about julia dent grant i understand that her family is the dent family. can you talk more about her family, the dent family?

host: very briefly, because we will spend more time on that later. give us a quick synopsis. guest: julia's parents came to .t. louis in 1816 they established their family in the city of st. louis and then a country home out at white haven where she grew up spending most of her summers and year-round. she had four younger brothers -- older brothers and two younger sisters. it was a fairly large family. the consider themselves southerners. her father did. homing --a slave slaveholding family. there were as many as 30 slaves that colonel dent utilized the labor of. host: that created tension between the two families? guest: when ulysses and julia were married in the city of st. louis, none of the grants attended the wedding reportedly

because they did not approve of ulysses marrying into a slaveholding family. did dent live in the white house at some time? how is that received? guest: he was a jolly old man. he was very heavy, white headed, and funny. he was very witty. that is probably where she got it. grants father jesse would come in who was a horse trader and entrepreneur, and he would go around the departments to try to make them by horses and hides or whatever from him. the two of them would -- the report a was unbelievable. the kernel called -- colonel called jesse grant that old gentleman over there. they teased each other a lot. it was good-natured. it would've been been stopped if it had not been. host: very different views about the world. colonel was very

lovable. jesse grant was never around enough. he was always wheeling and dealing. host: on facebook -- julia was more influential than she realized. did she bring military organization to the white house? guest: i think that is quite fair, a good remark. she brought a real order and organization. she had to manage the money, the , and allhe servants the payrolls exist, and she very much interacted with them. there was one named henry harris who had a lot of thatren -- she suggested he start buying washington real estate. he died a wealthy man. she forced him to put part of his salary into that. jerry smith was another favorite of hers, of the members of the staff, and she ran the whole

thing. with the help of the doorman. -- doormen. i think that is likely remark, the way the military was organized. host: she found the white house and a state of disrepair. bill, who studies the white house, has a bit of a different view, but you and i read about the fact that they were infrastructure problems and she tackled this and did great refurbishment of this. what do you know if it? guest: i think a lot of it was the perception she wanted to present to the public. , as was the nation's home well as their home. they were only temporary residence -- residents. she was concerned in some ways, the fact that she was from the west, as she called it, which missouri was at the time -- that she did not have the social acumen that many of the eastern families would've expected.

she wanted to ensure that what she did would meet with the approval of the nation and those social elites. she immediately talks about not even moving into the white house right away, because she is going through and cleaning things up and getting things organized. host: the money for that came from congress, congress appropriate the money? guest: through andrew johnson initially. his daughter, ms. patterson, she had completely redone the white house inside and repainted and decorated. julia grant says in her memoir that she went in and changed the furniture around. it was very stylish and 1860s not to have sets. people were reacting to mass production. mrs. patterson had everything mixed up and all the rooms so it would look artistic. mrs. grant went in and pulled everything together in sets again. she put tidy bows on the back of the furniture.

she did that, and of course, they later redecorated the east room and did some work in 1874 on the house. host: the style was what? -greco.they call it neo sometimes they call it steamboat gothic. host: i cannot get that in my mind. [laughter] where the grandchildren educated at home or in school? guest: they did attend school even during the war. the boys were sent to various schools. once the grants moved east, once his responsibilities called him east, the boys went to school in burlington, new jersey. ellie would have been schooled in washington dc. host: we didn't really establish this, but it was implied or inferred -- michael asks on twitter --

was this something she supported? wast: she did, but she initially hesitant. she said she always wanted to marry a dashing lieutenant and always thought of herself as the wife of the general good initially -- general. initially, this change into the presidency, she wasn't sure about it. she wasn't sure if ulysses really wanted it either. , no,sked him, and he said he really wasn't interested in it, but felt he was the one that the nation could best use at the time. host: she was happy as an army wife. he was still a famous general. she relished that. however, eight years later, she was not so happy about leaving the presidency. host: we should say that in those years in between -- this is the story of their life, so many ups and downs economically, great success and then ruin -- after he left the army, he struggled. he struggled to find something

he could do well. guest: he resigned from the military in 1854. he was stationed on the west coast. julia was living in white haven in st. louis. she had made the journey with him to years earlier -- two years earlier because she was pregnant with her second child. grant resigns from the military in 1864 to come back to st. .ouis rather ironically, he supposedly told somebody, if anybody hears from me in 10 years, they will know of me as an old missouri farmer. he was general, of all the armies during the war. host: what a turn. guest: he came back to st. louis to farm, just getting started and those years -- it was rather difficult. throughout the country there was economic panic. bad weather. he held a couple of different jobs in the city of st. louis and then moved to going up. host: we will show more of that later.

i do not want to leave the section of the life and the white house. a lot of people are asking about nellie, being married in the white house. guest: it was a sweeping, romantic on the dramatic event that happened in the white house. nellie was 17. on a ship englishman and they were engaged to be married. the parents disapproved because she was going to england. she was so young. mrs. grant said, so young. in 1874.ng took place they redecorated the east room for it, leaving the basic woodwork and adding a lot more, mirrors, all sorts of things, and the nation went wild. there weren't a lot of invitations, 200, i think. were mobbed.

you cannot get near the place. walt whitman -- i brought this -- walt whitman was there, and --te, bonnie bride it was carried in all the papers. it was the most wonderful thing. she married the need to huge wedding bells. -- two huge wedding bells. stewart would have a table with his name on it. there was a wedding breakfast, and then they left on their honeymoon. they lived in england where she renounced her citizenship, which he later very much regretted. she partitioned congress to get back and did get it back. guest: i think she had to renounce your citizenship i marrying somebody from england and moving over there. guest: not very happily. guest: reportedly after the

wedding was over, grant went upstairs, fell on the bed, and wept, he was so upset his daughter was leaving. guest: the guy was a womanizer and drink a lot and spent a lot of money. it was not happy. they had four children? guest: one died in infancy. 1890 1890-ied in something. host: we've shown so many photographs of julia grant, and they are often from the side. one of our viewers is asking on twitter -- excuse me, facebook -- i read that mrs. grant was injured as a child and never saw straight again, was this true and how did she stay so active and involved in the war? guest: i have read one instance where it was supposedly caused by an injury. but my understanding is that she was born with what today we would call a lazy eye. when i turned in. in.ne eye turned

she was very self-conscious about that. she felt she needed to do something about it. on two separate occasions, she attempted to have the surgeon fix it.her eye to grant found out about it and told her that he had fallen in love with her the way she was, and he might not like her half as much if she had her eyes surgically corrected. host: marty is watching this in lancaster, ohio. you are on. caller: i have a question. it has been rumored that president grant liked to drink a lot. how did julia handle his situation -- the situations where he was getting drunk? guest: well, there is not a whole lot of proof that grant was a drunk. he drank. a lot of people drink. about himstories being drunk, secondhand stories and things like that, but when you lay it all on the table, it doesn't go very far.

he wasn't a binge drinker type of person that anybody has been able to prove. he went through a lot of trouble in the years before the civil war. he had hard times in business and half the people in the united states had a hard time in business. it was a national depression of the worst kind. it was only ended by production in the civil war. he was tried to do business in those terrible years -- trying to do business and those terrible years. there really isn't much documentation for him being drunk all the time. guest: rumors are greatly exaggerated. some of the things i've looked at have indicated that perhaps on the west coast after being separated from his family for two years, he was definitely .epressed and missing them there is no evidence that he was forced to resign from the military at that time. later, at times during the civil war when some of these rumors

came up again, it seems to have often been when other generals were jealous of grant's success. this was one way to possibly bring him down a step or two. it was not successful. , lincoln is rumored to have said -- although it is not a proven story -- that when congressmaen came to him saying, remove grant, he is a drunk, he cannot be running the army, he findtedly asked of them, out what type of alcohol grant was drinking, and he would order barrels for all of his generals. host: because of his success. [laughter] we have so much to cover in so little time. often when you see historians 'analysis of the grant administration, it ranks very close to the bottom. for the many scandals that ensconce the administration.

what were the most important ones, and what were the effects on the presidency? guest: historians have been reassessing grant's presidency. i think c-span's own 10 year 13vey has moved him from 33 years ago to 23. he is improving in perspective. a lot of that has to do with his actions regarding civil rights for the newly freed african- americans in the country. host: he did do that, but it doesn't take away from the domestic scandals and the corruption and the sort of things. we need to talk about it. guest: they were peripheral to him. i would say all of them had been going on before his time, some as far back as lincoln. host: some suggest that julia grant was in the middle of this. do you contest that? guest: yes. she talks about the black friday siskind gould try

.o capture the gold market julia talks in her memoirs that the only she knew about was when grant had her write a letter to her sister-in-law who is actually grant's sister to ania who was married man reportedly involved in this, trying to persuade grant, and grant has a right to virginia -- saying, berginia careful. then he turns around and sells off government gold. host: martha is watching us in charleston, south carolina. caller: hello, susan. thanks again for another terrific show. you alluded to my question earlier in the show about the

possible tension between julia grant and mary lincoln. then you visited the beautiful galena home that was given to the grants. i'm not sure, was it during the same time period that mary lincoln was try to get attention of the government -- here grant has a home given to him -- mary lincoln was in germany trying to educate her believe the i grants later visited in france. guest: no, they crossed paths, but julia said she did not find out about mary lincoln being in the same town they were in until they were on their way out and cannot change their plans. host: do you agree with the mary was struggling

with her pension after her husband was in the presidency and the grants? guest: it seems extremely unfair to mrs. lincoln. guest: she was seeking pension from the government and the houses were given by private people. there is a difference. if the congress did not approve congress was- vigilant -- it was not all that bad a congress, they were vigilant, and they exposed these , the oneor scandals closest to the white house ville, the congressional oversight. he was tried. guest: he submitted testimony. he didn't actually come to st. louis. guest: i don't think president had ever done that in a criminal trial. host: next to sherry and

independence, missouri. caller: you answered my question about her eyesight. i have another question, being so well educated for the time, did julia speak other languages? i also understand that after the grants (house that they were the whitety -- left house, that they were really party animals. guest: she may have learned some french while she was in school. not on a real conversational basis that i know of. during the world to her, -- tour, which may be what the color is referring to, they took a two and a half year to her and were welcomed by the public and by royalty throughout the world. most of the time, they had to have an interpreter while they were there. host: we learned that at least mary lincoln thought washington looked down upon her as a westerner. the question from dave on twitter --

guest: i never found that at all. she was more sure of herself and not insecure like mary lincoln. she went after it. she was one of those people that jumped in the middle. she considered herself the head of women society in the capital. she was accepted. she was friends with all those kind of people in washington, all the embassies and everywhere. she was a go-getter. mary lincoln sat back and waited for people to come to her. host: we are going to visit another one of the sites associated with the grants. we will learn more about what influence her early childhood at white haven farm outside of st. louis. [video clip] >> this is the front porch of the historic home known as white haven where julia dent rant -- grant spent any of her childhood years. she was born in the city of st. louis. she spent all of her summers and year-long out here

as she grew up watching boys lay out in the yard or her sister playing the guitar and singing on the front porch. it is where she has her earliest memories of father lifting her up in the air, telling her that the trees were waiting and welcoming her back to her childhood home. that was when she was about two years old. i very early memory. they would have ventured through the front door into the foyer. from here, they would've gone up frequently into the former parlor where they would've been colonel and mrs. dent, julia at her mother's knee, learning how to be a lady and welcome guests and company to the home. some of julia's fondest memories from the dining room here at white haven include the meals that were served here. meals were always served my the dent's enslaved housekeepers.

they talked about white china with gold trim. the slave cook making maryland biscuits and the games that would be played over the dinner table with the well, talking and laughing about the days activities. . from here, after dinner, the guests would've -- family and friends would've come into the sitting room, which is really where the family would've spent more of their personal time in the evening, playing games on the game table, checkers or chess, things like that. julia would've played with some dolls. lots of reading taking place. on the second floor of white two rooms that serves as bedrooms for the family. her parents typically would've had a one bedroom julia and her sisters would've shared most likely this bedroom.

,n the 19th century, frequently when you had a nice upstairs porch area, the boys would've slept out there in the summertime. we know much about white haven from her, those memoirs. she is the first first lady to ever write her memoirs. she spent a lot of time talking about her life here at white haven. host: there we saw our guest pam sanfilippo in her day job. [laughter] guest: the grants had the house painted after he had purchased the property from julia's family in 1874. during the civil war they purchased it. host: reed williams asked -- he was about five foot, eight inches. she was around five foot, two inches. they met at white haven.

he had been a roommate of julia's brother fred dent at west point, and after graduation from west point, he was stationed at jefferson barracks, which is five miles south of the city of st. louis. fred invited ulysses to visit his family out at white haven. granted that in september of 1843. four,ruary of 18 -- 1840 julia returned home from the boarding school she was attending in the city, and julia visitsat initially his had been about once a week to white haven, but once she returned home, his visits were daily. he proposed to her within three months. host: we learn from you they were slaveholding family. a number of questions about their families and personal attitudes towards slavery. one is 1 - guest: initially she did.

she had been born and raised at white haven with the enslaved individuals providing everything that she needed. in fact, at one point, she says, she thought to house cap itself with all the -- cap itself with all the work that was being done by those individuals. there were as many as 30 slaves. according to the census record. once she met, fell in love with, and married ulysses, it kind of put her in the middle between these two opposing viewpoints. she talks about growing up, some of those enslaved individuals were her playmates, playing in the yard with her, carrying her to school, things like that. these are the same individuals who would provide the work on the farm.

the older individuals she ,onsidered part of the family and, uncle, a typical southern way of addressing these individuals. should consider them part of the family. i obviously did not. >> grant did own one's slave that he acquired from julia's father that he freed before the civil war started. julia, although she talks about having four slaves given to her by her father, she did not actually own any or make the legal transfer.

>> when she made trips to the battlefield, did she occasionally bring a slave as an assistant? >> that is a true story. >> was the irony not lost on her? >> it does not seem to have been. she needed the help and she ,alked about how black julia she was called, was almost ontured and did free herself one of the trips. -- egina asks >> did julia have any talks with the white house?

asked if colored people were to be admitted to the reception and she said yes. she never membered any attending. i am not sure. in her treatment of the staff at the white house, it was a personal, one-on-one thing. she saw african- americans as a personal relationship. jim is in prescott, arizona. you are on the air. >> thank you. what type of retirement did grant received after he was out of the presidency and the war? yes.om the government? >> >> was there a pension for the president? >> there was not, either for the president or his military service.

it was not until shortly before his death that congress awarded him a pension. >> we will talk about how he finds some -- he found some ways to make some money. there is about half an hour left. >> do you have a minute for a -- do you have a minute for a story? , always. >> everybody thought of him with a beard and a cigar. when he was a young lieutenant, he was very small. a were down in mexico and the soldiers were being entertained. they got together and did a production of othello. grant was elected to play desdemona. later, when the famous actress came to entertain the troops and took the part of desdemona, the audience booed and put grant back on stage. >> following up

on the question about her views about women, susan b anthony and other women were pardoned by president grant. it julia have any influence? i do not know if she had any influence on that decision. she was friends with susan b anthony. anti-d refuse to sign an suffrage petition that was going around, which was duly noted. she learned during the war years when she was forced to take on roles that typically the husband would have assumed, she learned how to become independent and felt that women should have some role in decision-making. >> we are going to visit another of the grant sites. i will ask you to set the stage for this one. what is it and where is it?

thehen grant resigned from army and came back to st. louis, living under his father-in-law 's roof was not what he wanted for his family. he built a log cabin for julia and their children as family group. and so we are going to see that log cabin. >> we recall that julia dent was from a very wealthy family. we will see what kind of house that ulysses s. grant built for them is their first mary home together. let's take a look. >> we are standing inside hard scrabble, a two story log cabin that grant for his family in 1856. >> julia did not like it one bit. she found it crude and homely. but true to her nature, she will make the best of it. farming, having his own home on his land, having their own place

to begin their life again, to renew their marriage, is what inspires grant. julia is comfortable with that. she wants her own home, too. as a young woman she would want to be mistress of her own home. she thought that he could have built something as nice as white haven. the cabin itself may be rustic whitewash would have been typical not only to help with bugs but white reflects light so the rooms would have been open and a little more cheery but so rustic. julia would have brought with her things, because as a privileged child she would have had fine china and fine furniture that would have been comfortable chairs and a broad table, because you have at this point, she had five people eating in this dining room.

these are not set up for cooking. the kitchen at the back with servants. enslaved people coming and serving julia and ulysses and their children. it is important for them. even though they do not live in that very long, this represents their very first home together. julia will gain a great deal of confidence as a wife and mother. it starts here at hard scrabble. >> a question from sheldon cooper, "as an army wife, did julia find any location more her home than any other? >> she considered white haven her home. in her memoirs, she again compared the white house to whitehaven because of the home that represented.

they traveled so much and had so many different headquarters or homes are around the country that it would have been next to impossible, but she created home wherever she was for her family. >> it is the purview of army spouses over the years. we have one more video of white haven, the beautiful green structure we showed you earlier, but you have to go to our web site. each week we are putting a feature on c- span.org/firstladies. we have a video that will show you the grants' life together. boy, does it look green. next is john watching us in washington state. you are on the air. caller: my name is john grant, no relation, but my great granduncle was on general grant's staff.

i have a copy of his diary and in it it mentions a number of times when he was in washington that he would have lunch with general grant's wife. and i was wondering if anybody could elaborate on that. mostly hear about general grant and his war escapades, but afterwards, and has anybody ever heard of that? cyrus married elizabeth blair, which was her grandfather was the secretary or postmaster general under lincoln. >> they were very close to the grants, the blairs. guest: julia entertained so much that quite possible and i recognize the name comstock from

the civil war years. and julia's memoirs in the white house. and frequently, congressman or people who were looking to get into see grant would try and do that through julia or to gain favor from grant, they would free the we go through julia because she was accessible to them. host: our next is a call from judy in brooklyn. caller: since general grant smoked so many cigars, i was wondering if julia or the children had any respiratory problems. and my other question was, since england had leaned so heavily towards the confederacy, what were the relations during the grant administration with england? guest: good questions. neither julia nor the children

ended up with respiratory problems. of course, grant ended up with throat cancer from smoking cigars. so it did eventually kill him. as far as england was concerned, one of the first issues that grant had to deal with as president was the claims against england for their support of the confederacy. he sets up the first ever international arbitration. and is credited with peacefully to solving the dispute with england. host: this is larry in pennsylvania. caller: hello. i have been watching your series and enjoyed them. i have recently read "the general's wife" by isabel ross. and one of the comments she makes in her book is that julia's father did not care for ulysses. i was wondering if you could comment on that. guest: he did say that he told

grant that she would not like the military life. he was very dubious. she had been raised with everything. and would definitely have to do without. guest: and they also had a disagreement over slavery. guest: i think he thought that grant was not going to amount to much financially and would not be able to give her what she took for granted. yes, ms. ross was absolutely right about that. guest: julia was the first daughter born after four sons. and according to julia, colonel dent offered, he told ulysses that the life of the army was not what julia was fit for. he offered her sister nelle to grant, which grant obviously turned down. and continue to try to convince

colonel dent that he would be the one to make julia happy. host: some of his concerns may have been valid because ulysses s. grant was a great general, but most of the venture's he got involved with, he had a difficult time. guest: in 1844, nobody knew that grant would become a success -- he was in the army. he actually did not intend to stay in the army. he wanted to get out and be a math professor. host: but let's look at his post white house years. even after he has all of his experience, he then goes on to a career in wall street and loses lots of money.

guest: his son. guest: fred. guest: who is the joint -- guest: i thought it was fred. didn't fred lose the first? guest: it affected all the family fortunes. ward had everybody fooled. he was making everybody mining hand over fist. and that should have rungs some bells, like today it doesn't. guest: he made off. guest: grant lost just about everything. host: how was it that grant lost all his money or states? was it due to his drinking? was he a gambler? financially irresponsible? guest: he was not a man who concentrated on finance. i do not think that was the first thing in his life. he would have liked to have had a lot of money, but i think a lot of other things interested him. host: was he a bad judge of character?

guest: he talks about when this financial failure happens with ward where word comes to ulysses jr and to grant himself and says that they are in financial straits and the bank. can you borrow some money? and we need to get through the next few days. and grant except that, borrowers $150,000 from william vanderbilt. and ward ensconced with the money to canada. and the fortune is lost -- ward absconds with the with the money with the money. host: we have not talked about them leaving the white house. there were no restrictions on running for a third term. did the grants which to seek a third term? guest: he didn't. she did. when he declined, he did not tell her. he gave the letter to them

without telling her, and she began to be suspicious. they are in the upstairs and the hall of the white house and she says, you cannot do this. you can't do this to me. host: wanted to continue being first lady? guest: and he said, it is done. she seems to have held up fine until inaugural day when they got into the the train car. and then she said she went to the bedroom and fell on the bed and sobbed and cried. she hated to leave the place. guest: she said she felt like a waif with no home, because she was not sure what was going to happen. guest: surely, she had felt that before. host: she was loathe to leave. did they plot a comeback? guest: when they returned from the world tour, there are those who felt like he should run for office again.

especially with all of this foreign relations experience. and he was interested at that point, feeling again that he could be of service to the country. julia says they were in chicago when the convention met, and she tried to encourage him to go downstairs and meet at the convention, knowing that would put him over the top with the votes needed, but he refused to do that and lost the nomination. host: some of the properties we are looking at are near the anheuser busch family property. michael reagan wants to know, were the grants tied to anyone in the anheuser-busch family? host: no. the busch family purchased 280 acres of the whitehaven estate in 1903. the only connection is that in the early years of the war, adolphus busche served for a

short time in the civil war. host: mark in cincinnati. caller: i had heard the story and you alluded to about the enmity that mrs. lincoln and mrs. grant had between each other. they were cordially the first couple that was offered an invitation to ford's theatre the night of the assassination and that mrs. grant politely told mr. grant not to accept and that was the only reason they were not in the box that night. is that true? guest: that is true, but there were going to philadelphia. they had a house there. there were going to see the children. that is where the were when they heard the president had been shot. guest: she talks about it in her memoirs.

even earlier during that day when she was at lunch, that there had been a suspicious group at the other -- guest: and then when they're driving to the train, a man came riding a horse by the carriage on the way to the station, which was on the mall in those days and looked in the window at grant and grant remarked that he was sinister. he did it twice. it may be just coincidence. who knows? she was scared to death. host: they believed he was targeted as part of the assassination plot? we learned that julia grant was much, very unhappy to leave the white house. and general grant assuaged that grief by taking her on a two- year world tour. what should we know about that tour? guest: it was actually his idea, that he felt like a boy out of school, and he had always loved travelling. and so they embarked on this

tour that was just origingally supposed to be europe. and then extended all the way around the world. she enjoyed every minute of it, mostly because of the praise and a claim that she saw her husband receiving. and the shopping that she did as well of things that she wanted to bring back home that she just had a wonderful time on the world tour. guest: we are going to return to the gallina home and look at some of the items on display there. [video clip] >> the grants came back here for a couple of months. and then they decided to go on a world tour. they were gone for over two years, visited 40 countries. the grants were so popular at the time. there were like american celebrities. and they were treated like royalty. they received a lot of gifts on

the tour. there were fortunate enough to have some of those still in the house. two of them are on the mantel. these red vases were a gift from the king of bulgaria. after the world tour, they came back here for another couple of months and they went to mexico and cuba. the paintings on each side of the fireplace were given to the grants on that trip by the government of mexico. jose velasco did these landscapes paintings for the grants. this is the dining room. this is where the family would have their meals. julia would have done a little light entertaining here. this is not anything to elaborate. we have some other gifts that were given to the grants on that world tour. this piece was actually given to julia. this is a bronze urn given to her by the citizens of yokohama, japan. the vase was given to the grants

by the emperor of japan. on the mantel is one of the most personal pieces that julia liked the best. she framed the leaves. the leaves were given to her by general grant, they were leaves that he picked up from the holy city. she had it framed and wrote the whole story on there. julia probably have the time of her life on this world tour. she devoted 1/3 of her memoirs talking about it. she developed friendships with queen victoria and a very good friendship with the emperor of japan. ended up staying in japan lower- than-expected because they developed such a nice, close relationship with him. after president grant passed away, julia was living in york and the emperor of japan came to visit julia while she was there. they kept that friendship and headed for the rest of her life. this was a place that the family could come back to, and this was considered home and was

welcoming for them. not just this house but gallina. she always refers to it as her dear, dear gallina. host: we have a short while left and we have to talk about their years after the tour. they come back to the united states and they have lost lots of money in this event that we talked about, the investments in new york city. what was their financial situation and what is the role of the memoirs in assuaging that? guest: when word gets out that they have lost this money, there are veterans from the wardress cent grant money to help him -- from the war that lent grant money. he was offered to write articles in the magazine. he was encouraged to write his memoirs. he had never been interested in doing that. it is mark twain's publishing

company. and he ended up publishing the memoirs for grant. although he completes them just a few short days before he passed away, he knows that they will bring financial comfort to julia. guest: the first royalty was $200,000. a mention in that day, the book made $1 million. it is a great book. i recommend it to anyone. host: still readable? guest: absolutely. host: were mark twain and the grants friends, since he offered to publish his memoirs? guest: yes, they did become good friends. and it was through twain's

efforts that grant began diligently writing the memoirs. and there were some claims that twain had ghost written but twain was adamant that it was grant that had written it. host: how close was mark twain to the grants? i know that twain played for -- paid for a sculptor? was mark twain or regular at the white house? guest: not at the white house. it was afterwards that they developed a close relationship. apparently twain had years earlier suggested to grant about writing his memoirs but almost as an offhand remark. so when grant says that century magazine is going to publish his memoirs, because there were the first to make the offer, mark twain reminded him that, no, he had made the offer much earlier. host: i will ask if we can bring the photograph up again of the president in his final days. it is such a poignant picture. wrapped in his blanket on the porch of the cabin in new york.

guest: in horrible pain. host: it was throat cancer. how was he able to get these memoirs done? guest: sheer determination. guest: he became impassioned. it was so important to secure a comfort for his wife. guest: he died so shortly after that it seemed as though adrenaline was keeping him going. julia talks about that and grant does, too, that that was keeping him going to finish those. host: i would like to take a call, but then a with like to hear about her memoirs. she was the first first lady to write her memoirs. kathleen in san francisco. caller: thank you very much. i had a quick question, julia had four brothers. and i think i remember during the civil war, they fought for

the south. is that true? and did they finally reconciled? guest: it was her brother fred who had been at west point with ulysses and stayed in the union army and ends up serving on grant's staff. her brother john, none of them actually joined the confederate army, but they certainly did go south and support the confederacy during the war. at one point, her brother john is captured and put in prison and seeks grant's assistance in getting an exchange -- a prisoner exchange and grant refuses basically to teach john a lesson. but when they're in the white house, the family is always there. host: another question on twitter. with all of these complexities during the civil war, were the grants friends with robert e. lee or jefferson davis? guest: not friends.

certainly grant respected robert e. lee during the war, and he had known him and the mexican war. guest: afterward. guest: but julia does become after jefferson davis and ulysses grant passed away, julia does become friends with irina davis. host: here is the memoirs. this is julia dent grant's memoirs. this edition was edited by the great john simon, now deceased, a great lincoln historian. what is the story about how these became -- the grant papers? and the editor of the grant papers, his life work. how did these memoirs, to be published, and why so long between her death and their writing? guest: she says it was her children who after grant's death

encouraged to to begin writing her memoirs of her wonderful life with her husband. and she says she just started it to satisfy their request, but then she realized that recalling all of these wonderful times kind of brought new life to her. and she did look at them, i think she was ambivalent about having them published initially. she thought it was something to record for her children. but then she did try to pursue getting them published several different times. and one publisher told her that they were so private that the people that were alive at that time, it was too much personal information. another time, it was, she was told that they would be sold through subscription and she was looking for a lump-sum deal. so they remained in the family hands and unpublished until john simon convinced the family that they should become public.

host: she lived a good number of years after him. was she an active first lady, she did it -- dishy advise other first ladies or become a private citizen again? guest: she still did a lot of entertaining initially. her son fred was appointed ambassador to austria. she joined him over there. she comes back to the united , she wrote several articles for different magazines, "harper's bazaar." after the spanish-american war, she writes an article that talks about the governments and nations responsibility to the widows and orphans of the war. host: norma in new castle, indiana. your question? caller: i was wondering whether or not there was a relationship between julia and ulysses and

the confederate general. host: thank you. guest: long street was a distant cousin of julia's dream -- julia's. when grant was first courting julia, long street was also stationed there. there is a possibility -- although the record is not quite clear -- that long street served as one of grant's groomsman at the matting. -- wedding. how long after grant costa did the famous grand costume built new york city? how did the country mourned him? guest: i believe it was the largest funeral ever held in the country. host: larger than lincoln? guest: yes. they brought his body from mount mcgregor and new york city -- to new york city and buried his body at a temporary tomb in

riverside park. and they began the effort to build a team we know today. host: julia was alive for the dedication? guest: yes. host: what was her role in all that? , and pleasedwidow to see the nation recognizing her husband that way. host: as we close, we've looked at a long and distinguished military career, a life of many ups and downs for the grant overtime, eight years in the white house, a successful world tour, very celebrated. what the legacy of julia dent grant, and how does she fit into the pantheon of first ladies we are studying about and learning about this year? guest: they are all women who basically support what their husband is trying to achieve. she did it with certain splendor in a very difficult time in american history and really turned the knob on it. period that ended

with the -- with reconstruction. ,er image in the white house the public popularity, her patron of the generals, the way she did in, personal way she was, she was a very significant first lady. a public kind of first lady. host: after coming after this victorian fainting lady, is she a harbinger of the modern first lady in any way? guest: that is their it difficult to answer. i think they all were opinionated, strong women, most all of them. perhaps, in a way, she had public interests. yes, i would say so. the next would be more so with mrs. hayes. i think she attracted a lot of public attention and attention -- to the family. host: you are working on a book to establish this thesis -- what is your answer to the question? guest: i think she would've said that her legacy, that she was a

devoted and loving wife, mother to their children, but i think toe than that, she tried represent that her husband was trying to achieve, peace and reconciliation in the nation. in her role as first lady, she was able to accomplish that. host: many thanks to all the folks at the grant sites around the country who helped with us, bringing new video tonight, and to the good people at the white house historical association who are our partners for the series. that concludes our discussion of julia dent grant. our thanks to our tube guests -- to our two guests. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013]

>> next monday night, we will explore the life of lucy hayes, the wife of president ruth -- rutherford b. hayes. she was a temperance advocate who banned liquor at the white house during her husband's administration. watch next monday live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span and c- span 3, as well as c-span radio, and c-span.org. our website has more about the first ladies, including a special section produced by our partner, the white house

historical association. it chronicles life in the executive mansion are in tenure of each of the first ladies. with the association, we are offering a special edition of the book "first ladies of the united states of america." the book includes thoughts from michelle obama on the role of first ladies throughout history. it is available for the discounted price of $12.95 plus .hipping at c-span.org/products c-span, created by america's cable companies in 1979, brought to you as a public by your television provider. on c-span, a conversation with members of the obama administration about automatic spending cuts. then a conversation on u.s. immigration policy and the economy. on our next "washington journal," we will talk to senior national security respondent eli lake about the

boston marathon bombings, syria, and last year's attacks and benghazi. then an update on president obama's nomination of congressman mel watt to head the federal housing finance authority which regulates fannie mae and freddie mac. neil richardson of bloomberg government owns us. the later richard fry of pew research center on the latest census data on wealth in the u.s. we will also take your calls, e- mails, and tweets. "washington journal" live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> next, political commentator cokie roberts moderates a conversation on automatic federal budget cuts with members of the obama administration. we will hear from homeland security secretary janet napolitano and housing and urban development secretary shaun donovan. the partnership for public service hosted this when our discussion. discussion. -- one hour discussion.

good afternoon. my name is matt stier. i am the president president of the partnership for public service. i will be brief as i have a bad cold. it is a great pleasure to welcome all of you here to public service recognition week. it is our intent that if there is an antidote to fed bashing all the time -- [laughter] seriously, we will never get the government we want if all we do is tear it down. amazing things are going on all the time by public servants. we need to recognize them if we want to see them replicated by other public servants. has beenhe time that both presidentially and congressionally determinative to be the week where we focused intently on the good things that our public service are -- servants are doing. our government is our only tool for collective action, and we needed to solve a huge array of challenging problems, problems that we see all the time in the

news, but we do not focus on them until they become part of the news. see that obviously in recent events with the boston marathon terrorist attack, we see it with respect to foreign issues, whether it is syria or north korea, we see it when there is an interruption of service, for example, the air traffic controllers. there again it is only an obvious interruption, not the interruption taking place across the board and all the places government works. we do not recognize the need for public servants until there is either a crisis or a service is interrupted. that is not good enough. this week is intended to focus on the great things that are happening. i hope all of you look at the service to america medal winners we are announcing, that have been announced already, but we will be celebrating them tomorrow. honorees are 31 people doing amazing things across the board in every issue of critical importance. i also hope you will take a look briefly at the letter that is on your chair, both from the

president recognizing outlook service recognition week, -- public service recognition week. to the mainng event, which i'm looking forward to, i also want to recognize that this event, a town hall meeting, is being supported not just by the partnership, but a larger organization per public employees roundtable, and we are proud to be part of per. it has been supporting this event for many years. i think ill brantford should be here. he is the chairman. i wanted to single him out. i also wanted to thank in particular one of my colleagues, jim seymour, who is standing back there. you see 15 signatures on this letter. each of them were quite willing to do it, but they are in much demand. not only did jim seymour track each and every one of these signatures down, but this event, so much more of what we do at

the partnership is all of what jim has done. it is an extraordinary that he is an expert in a public servant himself. thank you very much, jim. i also want to thank everybody here. we have representatives from all segments of our society. , peopley the media peopl from government, people from the university world, business leaders, and it is so important that all of you see government as part and parcel of what you care about. it is our government, not the government. we believe it is not just the people that work here at the partnership that are part of it, but all of you -- we all need to be partners in order to make sure we have a government that we want and deserve. finally, and critically, i have to say our twitter #tsrw. we need to let folks know we do have a fairly sizable online audience as well. we will try to repeat questions for them, and likewise, if you have questions at the end, if you would please recognize that they are there assuming as well. with that, i have the great

pleasure and honor of turning the podium over to somebody who does not have a cold. he also does not have a broken arm, which has been designated to shaun donovan instead. it seems to be the tradition at these events. [laughter] we will probably have a less large showing next year amongst the panelists. [laughter] truly, it is an exceptional group of folks we have here. truly great leaders in government, people that i am proud to have leading major pieces of our government, and i'm looking forward to hearing from them. we'll have cokie roberts lead the conversation. trulyy needs no -- she needs no introduction. she is on our board of directions. a big round of applause for cokie roberts. [applause] and welcome, everyone. it is very kind of some of you to come back. ,his is transparency at work

taking questions from your own employees. that is the hardest. then the press and other members of the public. i'm not going to do an introduction of these lovely people because you know who they are. they are all in your program. they are lined up infinitely -- conveniently in the order they are in in your program. you have secretary of housing and urban development shaun donovan right here, terry janet napolitano from homeland -- secretary janet napolitano from homeland security, the acting administrator of the environmental protection agency, and dan tenderly, the acting administration -- administrator of the general services administration. you might notice a certain and.tic -- ethnic ethnic well -- similarity. italy is laura presented here.

-- shaun donovan, i do not know about you. [laughter] i think we do have to start with sequestration. we're stuck with it. is on everybody's mind, particularly your employees employees' mind, the publics minds, and as max implied, the faa got everybody thinking about it. the airlines were very clever. reagan national, dulles, the airlines were screwing up and blaming it on the government and saying, write your congressman. it was the biggest lobbying operation i have ever seen. people were ready. i was grateful. each one of you is doing with this in some way or the other. why don't you start, secretary napolitano, because you are sort put ithe border -- to

mildly -- at the forefront of where people are concerned about government and safety? is really theon worst possible way to manage government. we are constantly challenged to manage effectively and efficiently, but when you do not have budgets, when you do not have regular order, you do not have whether you are on a continuing resolution or a budget or a shutdown, and then you will not have sequestration, but you will have sequestration, this is the baseline from which to cut, no, this is the baseline -- it really all -- it makes it very difficult. on tryingen focused to manage sequestration to minimize the impacts on our personnel. we are very personnel-dependent. trying to minimize the effects

furloughs and--- overtime and the like, but it does mean that as it increases over time -- this is where it is different from a shutdown -- the effects accrue over time. for example, summer travel furloughingre not necessarily cvp officers -- >> that is? >> customs and border protection. they actually enter people into the united states who have traveled. on the other hand, the ability to search for overtime or to offer overtime for the tsa during a busy travel season, that flexibility now is denied us. it just has made it very difficult to manage in as effective a way as all of us would like to. >> who else wants to go? secretary donovan? >> what i would add to that --

with thethis point -- airlines, there are impacts that are being felt all across the country. really they are growing over time. we have over 200,000 families that are either going to end up out of homeless shelters, back out on the street, or families whose average income is about $10,000 a year in that depend on --tion eight vouchers endion a vouchers who will up homeless or unconscious. those kind of effects do not often get heard in the way a delayed shuttle from dc to new york does. -- one ofminds me of the first things i heard in dc when i worked in the clinton administration -- hall takes is felt need. it is not enough for there to be

a need. it needs to be felt in the halls of congress and more broadly across the country if there is really going to be a political response. we can talk until we are blue in the face, as cabinet secretaries, or as people inside the administration, but average people across the country have to speak up about these things to really have a change be made. it is the unfortunate reality that we live in. these impacts are real. they are happening. the question is, will we know enough about them, will we hear a enough them to really make a difference in turning it around? as janet said, this is no way to run a railroad. >> at least in a judy, you have homeless people you can point to. it would seem to meet epa is you haveer -- in hod, homeless people you can point to. it would seem to me that epa is even harder. >> sequestration slows things down across the government.

some things are more apparent than others. the thing that is remarkable to me, no matter how much chaos this throws into normal order, public servants are rising to the occasion, even when their pay is being cut, to make sure that some minimal -- the minimal amount of work gets done. that is one of the more remarkable stories in this as well, how they have risen to this challenge that has been thrown at them. >> go ahead. >> i was going to say that rising to the challenge is part of what we are trained to deal with at gsa. you heard of the problems of these three cabinet agencies that deliver direct services to the american people confronting in this era of sequestration. gsa exists to try to drive down costs, to leverage the scale and scope of federal government. we are mobilizing our efforts around getting up to the agencies in finding ways a can save money within their operations by freezing the footprint, the lapsing and coordinating our fleet

operations, leveraging the scale in terms of acquisitions, and using that to try to drive down the cost of government to they can put more back into the mission when they need it the most. >> as you all well know, there is a lot of criticism that you're cutting the most obvious things, the things we can see and can't react to as voters. -- and can react to as voters. a little smarter, there must be some waste in your organization, somebody that could go, and you would still keep the core mission functioning -- is that a fair criticism? >> no. [laughter] you want to first? the way sequestration was done was to go account by account i account by account. -- by account by account. unless you go through the entire process and go to

congress and ask for something called a reprogramming, you do not have the flexibility within your department to move things around. that is why the attack on the department of transportation for the faa is really unfair. it did not recognize that the way sequestration was done did not provide flexibility unless you went back and asked for permission -- that i rob peter to pay paul, which is essentially what you have to do? >> which is what they did. >> in that instance, yes. >> in an era where you do not often get bipartisan agreement, i went out with janet and a range of our other colleagues to a hearing where lindsey graham at one point said to all of us, "what you're telling me is that sequestration is stupid?" we looked at each other thinking, is this a trick question? yes, we agree.

it is stupid. you cannot design a worse way to reduce costs. -- we've lived in an era over the last few years of difficult fiscal times. just ask our employees what we have been through. the point is that this is not the right way to do it, first of all, and second of all, there comes a point where even with flexibility,- you'll reach a point you'll will have an impact on people's lives. maybe it is the nature of the cynical times we live in to have this become an issue of, you are doing this on purpose, right? one might ask, as janet said, it is not what congress should be lecturing us on managing these days, but also, this is something that we really need to make sure these impacts are understood by the american people. how you ared about

impressed by how people are still working under these circumstances, working well under the circumstances. one of the things that a partnership for public service is always concerned about is making the government the best it can be, and that means having employees be in a position where they feel they can be effective. ,iven this kind of stupidity as you all have described it, how do you do that? >> people get into public service because they want to make a difference. what you have to emphasize, if you have a difficult time doing budget, so you can plan ahead and be innovative by setting the course for change that is based on a rational approach, as opposed to these episodic issues we are dealing with, you have to motivate your workforce on mission. you have to motivate them on the service they are providing and

the change they can make in the world. i think that is what we have to fall back on. that is always there, but it is very frustrating for the workforce to have to work towards those motivations and at to same time planning publish anything is disrupted constantly. isaccomplish anything disrupted constantly. >> are basics like travel budgets, are those affecting the ability to get things done? >> in our case, we have reduced the trouble for what you would normally call meetings that would be a routine, and they are reserved for folks only on field inspections. we have moved our travel back to the most use agile field inspection work so we can provide that service to the public. necessary field inspection

work so we can provide that service to the public area -- public. >> coming out of the financial crisis, there were a lot of people upset with the government's role in housing, and the housing sector is one that people became suspicious of. how do you fix that and bring people back, especially at a time like this? >> well, this has obviously been a challenge that goes well beyond four years. this is something that will take for the second term, and i think beyond, and part of it is a fundamental debate we are having is a country about, what is the right role for the federal government? how do we limit that role in the right way and direct it where it is most needed? part of the thing that we need to focus on is that frankly, whether it is housing or many other things, you have to look at, how does housing support

what we all can agree on is the right outcome? in often whether it is housing or any other area in government, we do not think not about, for example, if a child does not have a decent place to live, does that effect how they do in school, how does that effect their health? how does it affect all the other things that might reach out and beyond the traditional folks we might talk to or care abouty about -- narrowly housing as an issue. particularly in these times -- this is something the partnership has focused on -- what does it actually mean when you make an investment, whether it is in housing, health, or education, what does that also mean in terms of what we can save in the long term? really being able to look at -- the child does not have a decent place to live -- does that mean

they are going to read more slowly and not get as good a job, not contribute to society as much in the long run? the more we can measure and understand those kinds of impacts that something like housing has, more we can make the case to the american people, here is a reason why you as a taxpayer should care about this, even if you do not care about housing per se. i think we all have to do a hud wejob, certainly at need to, to show why housing matters, and not just because it means more economic investment. it has a broader set of impacts on health and education as well. ,> that question of metrics how you measure, is something all of you have gotten much more involved in than was true even 10 years ago when for instance homeland security got started. this is kind of what you do, right? you try to measure how government, i you can get

government operating in the most efficient way it can. , that is theys counterpoint to the whole issue of the sequester. what we really should be doing is diving deep into these programs and asking ourselves, what are we getting out for the dollar we put in? .hat is inspected is respected we need to develop a government that is driven by data rather than anecdotes. that is the challenge we are all facing as we try to deliver services, the demand for which is not going down. it is actually going up. the resources we have to deliver those services, if we are lucky, they are staying flat. we have to figure out how we can get more productivity, more wecomes, or the resources put into them, because that is the expectation. >> one of the things we do a partnership is having these annual surveys of the best places to work i. i noticed all of your agencies

have gone down slightly this year. i assume that has something to do with this whole general atmosphere of washington's uncertainty and all that. but epa wins -- [laughter] with the score of almost 68%. that is very good. then i think it is homeland security coming in at almost 53%. thisuch do you use measurement can eat all you waiting how the job -- the job you are doing in your departments? >> we do not like the numbers we are getting. dhs has historically ranked very low. part of that is the newness of the department. that ourt is the fact

employees oftentimes i think you like they work in a no-win theytion in which what prevent does not get public notice, but if something gets through, it gets a lot of notice. if a mistake is made, it goes viral. that we have to work on that part. we've also discovered other things. thatxample, we've learned when people were promoted to first line silverberg -- supervisory positions, a lot of times they were not trained on how to be a supervisor. among the discontent was, how am i being a value weighted by an immediate supervisor? we can fix that. we have now instituted departmentwide a process and a class and training to do that. executive steering counsel on how to deal with employee satisfaction