that assurance. my right hon. friend the prime minister, the point is to be his legacy and also advisory group being established, and the team is meeting special olympic gp shortly to discuss the potential links bet >> you have been watching prime ministers questions from the british house of commons. it airs live on c-span to every wednesday at 7:00 a.m. eastern, the house of commons is in session and again on sunday nights on c-span. the house of commons is now in recess for two weeks. question time returns wednesday, june 5, 2013. findspan.org, you can video of past prime minister's questions and other british public affairs programs.

>> next, a house hearing on guestworker programs. s. jamest, "q&a" with gates, jr. then another chance to see bridge deputy prime minister nick clegg take questions at the british house of commons. thursday, the house judiciary subcommittee on immigration and border security held a hearing on the guestworker program in the u.s. agriculture industry. witnesses included arturo and representatives from u.s. seafood and meat production facilities. this is about an hour and 25 minutes. >> good afternoon. i want to apologize to everyone who was waiting on me, the

witnesses and everyone in the audience and especially my colleagues, for having another vote in another committee. we are here because the subcommittee on immigration and order security will have a theing on hr 17 73 which is agricultural guestworker act. the committee will come to order. welcome to all of our witnesses. i will recognize myself for an opening statement, then the ranking member. we are now here to begin our thederation of hr1773, agricultural guestworker act. this will provide american farmers with what they have asked for from anywhere -- years. -- for many years. this benefits each of us. i congratulate chairman goodlatte for introducing this legislation. and my colleagues on both sides the aisle who have informed and instructed my understanding of these issues.

i think the farmers and others in the industry for helping me understand the challenges they face in meeting this issue of national significance. we would all do well to place ourselves in the shoes of farmers, because we sometimes lose track of what it takes for growers to put this bounty on the world's tables. we lose track of what it takes for them to give us the most reliable agricultural system in the world area for those crops that are labor intensive, especially at harvest time, part liver is critical. i askeduary hearing, why the program was so underutilized. i noted that in the eyes of many farmers, the room seems designed to fail. it is cumbersome and full of red tape. farmers have to pay wages that put them at a competitive disadvantage. 50% rulesubject to the that requires them to hire any .omestic workers who show up

, growersheh2a program are constantly subjected to litigation by those who don't think the age to a program should even exist. they need a fair, workable program that gives them access to the workers they need when they need them at a fair wage and with reasonable conditions. they need a partner in the government, not an adversary. the program will benefit farmers and american foreign workers. the programt use because it is too cumbersome, this will not benefit any actual workers. jettisons the dysfunctional figures -- features of theh2a program. this bill contains a streamlined petition process based on h1b program.

this puts the department of agriculture in charge of h2c which requires growers to pay guestworkers the local veiling market-based wage. providenot make them housing or international travel reimbursement. abusive litigation against growers, the bill allows growers and guestworkers to mediation of grievances against vibes workers who are not eligible for tax funded lawyers under the legal services corporation act. in order to prevent a labor force shock, it allows illegal immigrants to participate in the program, just as can any other foreign nationals along as they abide by the terms and conditions of the program. i look forward to hearing today's witnesses and learning how this would benefit them. i now recognize the gentlelady from the california. >> enqueue. -- thank you. and thank you mr. goodlatte and

holding this hearing. as the hearing we just had an illegal workforce act, i understand this hearing is another in a series of hearings meant to examine what is broken in our current immigration system. nowhere is the evidence of rope brokenness more evidence then the agricultural actor. -- sector. untenable foris both farmers and farmworkers, who together provide an invaluable service to our citizens, our economy, our country. they deserve a system that works. that is why it is so significant that just last month, farmers, trade associations from all over the country and in every sector of the agricultural industry, from apples, beekeeping, sheepherders, christmas trees,

berries, onions, peaches, , vegetables, eggs, the wine institute and everybody in between, everybody agreed with the united farmworkers to reach a historic agreement to reform our agricultural labor system. the agreement that everybody signed onto, which came came after many months of negotiation is designed to provide a system that works for both rovers and farmworkers. in doing so, it will help to support the millions of jobs that depend on the agricultural industry and will prevent us from coming increasingly dependent on food produced overseas. an agreement includes earned legalization program for the current undocumented agricultural workforce and the new visa program to address future farm labor needs. it is a sensible solution and i applaud all of the people who worked hard to make it a reality.

let me note that for years we talked about the former ad jobs conquer eyes -- ag jobs compromise. after the compromise fell apart, it was unclear how the parties work together to find a solution. the proposal that the parties recently reached has even more support than the ag jobs compromise. it is supported by organizations with large farmers, small farmers, beekeepers, landscaping, farm .ureau's over 70 different agricultural employer organizations support the agreement, including the farm bureau, the national council of agricultural employers, the national council of farm cooperatives. usa farmers, which i understand

our witnesses the treasurer of that association. the national milk producers federation, the national united area men -- dairymen. 'sen the idaho dairymen association. all of these agree, the current system for immigration is hurting our agricultural sector. that is an opinion i share and i know is shared by chairman goodlatte. his bill is a sincere effort to address the dysfunction. i appreciate this hearing as a way of studying the proposal while considering ways to fix the broken system. as we prepare to enter the national discussion about reforming our immigration system, we will need to fully understand each aspect of the top to bottom reform of our system, just as much as we will need to understand how each aspect is interrelated. i must admit, i hope this hearing will help convince the chairman and other members on his side of the aisle to accept

and support the agreement that has been reached between the diverse coalition of grower interest in the ufw. considering support for that agreement all across the farming community, i am not sure -- something completely new opposed by members of that community. at least two elements of that deal that will prevent it from ever becoming law. 1770 three provides an opportunity for undocumented farmworkers to apply for a temporary worker visa created in the bill. those would only allow workers to remain here for a time of 18 months. even if they have been here for decades and have spouses and children in the united states. the reality is, this proposal will not work. by asking such people to come out of the shadows, registered, and obtain a temporary visa, we are essentially asking them to report to deep or.

-- deport. they will not have access to the workers they need going forward. the other would dramatically reduce wages and other protection for farmworkers who are already the least played p paid workers in the united states. it would create a program with lower wages and fewer protections. the country needs us to find a solution to the agricultural waiver problem. i believe the superior solution is a landmark agreement between farmers and farmworkers. i am grateful the united farmworkers, the american farm bureau and all of the other agricultural employers and associations for putting us on what i believe will be the right track. i yield back. >> the chair will not recognize the gentleman from virginia. ,hairman of the full committee

any opening statements he might think appropriate. for holding this ourleheader of hearings on step-by-step approach to addressing all of the issues related to immigration reform that are so badly needed in our country. as we seek to reform our immigration system as a whole, we must take the time to look at each of the issues within the system, to ensure that we get immigration reform right. for this reason, i thank the chairman for holding this important hearing. hr1773 is a bill that will replace our outdated agricultural guestworker program and bring us one step closer to solving the larger immigration puzzle. h2aast hearings on the program have revealed, farmers avoid using the existing agricultural guestworker program because it burdens them with excessive regulations and exposes them to frivolous litigation. the new guestworker program created under the ag act, the

program graham -- protects farmers from abusive lawsuits. dairy-- also allows farms and food processors to participate in the program. the new program will be market driven and adaptable. it will reduce your craddick redtape by adopting -- bureaucratic red tape. by agreed to abide additional terms and conditions. the opportunity to be designated as registered agricultural employers. moreover, subject to certain conditions, these workers can be employed under contract or at will, making it easier for orders to move freely throughout the agricultural marketplace to meet demand. we must also learn from the mistakes of the past. as a result, the following h2a programthe

will not be repeated in the new program. it will not require growers to hire and train on needed workers after the work time begins. require employers to provide free housing and transportation for their workers, and farmers will pay workers the typical wage paid to agricultural employees in their locality, not an adverse effect wage dreamed up i labor department bureaucrats. the new program will be a guestworker program at its core. unlike the agricultural worker provisions in the senate immigration bill, the ag act does not create a special pathway to citizenship for unlawful immigrants. it simply allows unlawful immigrants to produce pate in the new -- participate in the new program, provided a job is available. they are required to abide by conditions as foreign agricultural workers

currently working legally in the united states. including the requirement to leave the u.s. periodically and the prohibition on family members accompanying the worker. h2c workers can be admitted for up to 18 months to work in a job that is temporary or seasonal. for work that is not temporary, they can be admitted conditionally for up to 36 months and up to 18 months on subsequent visas. at the end of the authorized work time, a worker must remain outside the united states for a to atuous period, equal least 16 of the duration of their previous day, or three months, whichever is less. be strictly enforced. to encourage them to abide that he rolls, a small portion wages will be held in escrow until the return home to collect the wages in their home countries. if a guestworker abandons his or her job, and employer will be

required to notify the department of homeland security within 24 hours. workers who do not leave the u.s. when required will be barred from reentering the u.s. from three-10 years. as a general rule, the program will be limited to 500,000 visas per year, although individuals working in the u.s. unlawfully who transition into the h2c program will not count against this cap. finally, the program is fiscally responsible. it gets -- it's guestworkers will not be eligible for obamacare subsidies or other federal public benefit. they're also not a legible for federal refundable tax credit or the child tax credit. it is essential that we examine solutions to our broken immigration system methodically. if we fail to do so, we risk repeating some of the same mistakes of the past. i am pleased to welcome all of our witnesses today. i would say to them and all the

members of this committee and others in the congress that we look forward to working with and thishis issue hearing on the specific legislative language of the bill is a good starting point to talk about the issues related to agricultural immigration reform. we will benefit from the testimony of these witnesses today. i look forward to their valuable testimony. i think the chairman. >> without objection, other members opening statements will be made part of the record. on behalf of all of us, we welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses. i will begin by swearing you in. if you would all please rise and lift your right hands. you where the testimony are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god. let the record reflect all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. i will recognize you individually for your five minute opening statements.

your entire statement is already part of the record. if we could get you to edit it, the lighting system means what it normally means. green, go, yellow, about a minute, read, go ahead and wrap up that thought. mr. lee wicker, the deputy director of the north carolina growers association, the largest h2a program. used to work for the security commission as -- and a statewide administrator for the h2a program. he has been growing third tier tobacco with his family since 1970 eight. he graduated from the university of north carolina at chapel hill. mr. christopher gaddis is the head of human resources -- 140 production facilities worldwide. the largest animal protein processor in the world. prior to this role, he served

as general counsel for for gbs usa where he oversaw litigation, mergers, acquisitions and corporate compliance. a received of his jd and the in political science from the university of colorado. mr. john greene the third is crab processing plant in virginia that has operated as a family owned this myth since 1942. he also runs hampton market which offers retail seafood and dining about a mile away from the plant. we would also like to welcome his father who is in attendance and is a third-generation operator of their plant. attended college in ashland, virginia. lastly, we would like to welcome arturo rodriguez, the president of united farmworkers, a position he position he has held since 1993. he has more than 35 years experience organizing farm workers and negotiating ufw contracts.

he went to the university of michigan. welcome to all of you. we will start with you, mr. wicker and recognize you for your five minute opening statement. >> good afternoon committee members. i am lee wicker, deputy rector of the north carolina growers association. also a member of usa farmers, the largest ag guestworker employer group. thank you for holding this hearing on a critical issue for labor-intensive agriculture. h2a has been the largest user in the nation for more than 50 -- 15 years. in previous hearings, i have highlighted the chronic problems of the program. it is expensive, overly bureaucratic, unnecessarily

litigious and excludes some farms and activities. creating a new program that all ag producers can use. the proposal is evidence that the u.s. can have a workable farmworker program that treats workers well and carefully balances the critical elements of worker protections while promoting economic viability on our farms. this bill offers significant reforms to the prohibitive cost farmers currently faced and makes improvements in other important areas. it provides for a market-based revealing wage floor that surpasses the federal minimum, authorizes pay systems to promote higher earnings and offers structured portability to enable worker movements from employer to employer. it makes farmer and worker obligations clear and understandable and creates a streamlined legal dispute to solven system farmworker complained quickly and efficiently. these improvements will provide a viable alternative to employing illegal aliens. it maintains valuable employee

benefits and critical worker protections for domestic and foreign workers. continuation of the minimum hours worked guarantee, mandatory workman's comp insurance, hiring preference for u.s. workers and enables undocumented workers to come at the shadows to work legally. it allows farms that currently provide housing to continue, but does not prohibit farms without housing from part aiding -- participating. --obust enforcement regime all the economic but and worker protections in this bill will provide workers who accept these jobs assurance. they will enjoy a higher wage and benefit package, a safer work environment and quicker resolution of their grievances and if they worked on u.s. farms illegally. bipartisan there is consensus. our nation needs a modern and guestworkerure program. this bill encompasses many

elements of the senate gang of eight ag proposal. illumination of the unnecessary 50% rule, and worthless newspaper ads. savings on acquisition fees. longer visas to respond to evolving farm production practices. enables undocumented workers to obtain legal status and keep working. revived at will and contract implement to allow workers and growers flex ability to decide for themselves what works best so provides port ability that workers can seek alternative opportunities in the far marketplace. ncgaugh the 750 farmers of are opposed to an arbitrary cap, we acknowledge the 500,000 per year cap in the program is far more reasonable and the inadequate annual cap in the senate bill. farmers need the program to be uncapped to avoid devastating

economic losses that will force unprecedented farm bankruptcies when crops are lost because partisan political systems and administrative processes will never react quickly enough as crops ripen, then rocked. -- rot. consumers are forced to pay higher prices for a smaller supply of fresh fruits and vegetables. the boardperfect, voted unanimously to support a73, because it provides program more protectable and user friendly. it is a win for farmers, farm workers, and america. it will create jobs and save jobs in the united states. i would like to enter into the record a comp intensive study completed by economist michael clemons that has just been published. that legalclearly

guest workers save jobs for americans on and off the farm. it is clerical are u.s. farmers cannot afford, and many may not survive, another policy failure like 1986. the program will provide a fair, predictable, efficient, and affordable process for agricultural jobs. farmers and farmworkers want to apply with labor and immigration laws. congress should pass the law so they can. thank you. >> mr. gaddis? ? members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to testify on hr 1773. my name is chris gaddis, and i am the chief human resources officer for jbs usa. i believe we have facilities in

all but five of your states. jbsemarks are on behalf of usa, but also on the food manufacturers immigration coalition, a broad coalition of leading meat and poultry processors, including the north american meat association, the american meat institute, the national chicken council, the national turkey federation, the national cattlemen's the association, and the national pork producers council. we thank the chairman and cosponsors for the introduction of hr 1773 and for its construction of attention to a substantial component of immigration reform -- aggressing the needs of u.s. employers and also the sources of such labor. reform to be for meaningful we must reckon with the needs of u.s. employers for less skilled labor to work jobs that due to various resources -- reasons go unfilled by u.s. laborers. we must address document fraud

and identity theft. we support the definition of agricultural labor or services contained in this bill. we believe it important that the legislation recognizes that all activities required for the "preparation, processing, or manufacturing of a product of agriculture for for the distribution" are a essential ingredient in the agricultural labor equation. these activities, including the preparation and process of animal protein products for further distribution in the food chain, are a critical second step in the food supply chain by which our companies feed the united states and the world. bill's support the provision of 36 months of h2cterrupted stay for workers who have obtained positions in agricultural manufacturing. the positions we offer are permanent, full-time, non- seasonal jobs. , our a probationary period employees receive full benefits, including 401(k). the 36 month time is the minimum

necessary for us to in -- invest in the training of the employees and reap some benefit prior to the implied a needing to leave the country. we know the only provides for a maximum subsequent stay of 18 months, and does not allow h h2c workers to bring spouses or minor children with them. we encourage them to reconsider these restrictions when it comes to agricultural manufacturing and look forward to working with the committee further on the topic. bill'se commend the sponsors for taking a practical approach to dealing with labor that is presently here in unauthorized status by granting togibility for h2c work any person physically present in the united states on the date of the bill's introduction. the bill recognizes the unlikelihood that this population will be removed involuntarily and maximizes the pool of persons who would , avoidingr h2c status encouraging unauthorized

migration by people who made the from afar. we also note the bill contains various requirements protecting the rights of u.s. workers vis- à-vis h2c workers, and the rights of h2c workers vis-à-vis employers. the companies want to be clear. we do not want to be associated with a program that would facilitate or allow him proper treatment of domestic or foreign workers. we therefore commend your direct confrontation of the issues. last, there is an essential ingredient immigration reform. wood was hereoul earlier. i often heard that politics makes for strange bedfellows. we acquired a company that was the subject of the largest worksite enforcement action in history at the point of -- by the department of homeland security. over the last three years, ms. would has done an incredible

job as a private consultant, bringing us from where we were into the image program. the benefit of the size and scope to bring someone like in. wood i commend this group addressing not just you verify, but trying to get around identity theft in greater detail. the food manufacturers coalition thanks chairman good letter taking -- chairman goodlatte for taking an important step. with the introduction of hr 1773 and employment verification legislation. we understand the road to effective immigration legislation is not a straight line, but we believe and appreciate important steps taken by the legislation. thank you. >> mr. graham. >> good afternoon. >> will you make sure your microphone is on and closer to

you? >> ok. >> thank you for inviting me. not only am i the president of graham-rawlings, -- graham- rollins, but also the seafood industry -- the $31 billion seafood industry supports more than one million u.s. jobs, including almost 100 84,000 seafood preparation and packaging. any others in our supplier and customer networks. america's the food processing industry has struggled over 20 years as the local labor force has moved on to less strenuous full-time jobs and we are forced to find alternative labor. h2b program use the for essential work and to augment our full-time american workforce. most recent -- a most recent survey said an average of 2.1

million american jobs -- most coalition members have used the program for over a decade, but it is a constant struggle to make the program work. growingof focusing on my small business business, i spent an inordinate amount of time on h2b issues. these include the labor department's tedious paperwork requirements, that are inconsistent year after year. we have to continually worry about not getting visas. or, more recently, worrying new or more complex rules will put me out of business. in addition to these requirements, most seafood processes are dependent upon a resource supplied by mother nature. we have no control over the availability of blue crabs. we have harvest restrictions as to how many, where, and when our stupid maybe harvested. -- our seafood may be harvested. dolre frustrated that the

does not understand the unique nature of the seafood industry. yet they continue to put regulatory pressures on us. for example, most seafood processors are in remote coastal communities. the local workforce is tiny and shrinking, yet dol insists that we simply choose to use the h2b program rather than hire locally. year after year, we have to prove at our expense through advertising and training programs that ultimately our own -- that ultimately are unsuccessful, that americans do not want this job. h2bcurrent rules make the program very difficult. it is vital that congress take a broad look at the program and its regulation by any government agency as part of the immigration reform efforts. chairman goodlatte, i thought -- i applaud your creative thinking with the h2c thinking and the inclusion of seafood in the

agricultural workforce bill. first and foremost, i am glad you have included off-season industries alongside the agricultural industry. these industries are alike in many fashions. both are production-oriented, whereas workers wages are ca ofculated not by the amount time in fields and processing plants, but also based on individual performance in the form of peace wages. we are not providing a service. we are providing a manufacturing product from nature's resources. second, because we are at the mercy of mother nature are industries are faced with recent -- frequent weather events that can abruptly change production. it is for this reason that i'm in support of a provision of guaranteeing employment employment for 50% of the work hours promised. this is much more flexible than dol's proposed 75% guarantee presented in 2011. lastly, i understand the motive behind establishing a trust

fund, thus creating an incentive for workers to return home. i believe it was very creative, and it will prove to be worthwhile and beneficial to the h2c program. i understand the house and senate are considering several guestworker programs. as you work through the process, i think i can speak for the entire industry in saying we are looking for a program that is dependable and consistent and one that will allow us to stay in business and keep americans working. solutions a workable to obtain a reliable temporary workforce without the current problems we face within the h2b program. our need is that simple. the basic law of survival. unfortunately, we are at a critical point where i a change has to be made now or another american industry and american jobs will be lost. i look forward to answering any questions you may have. >> thank you. mr. rodriguez.

thank you very much. , andng member lofgren members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. my name is arturo rodriguez, president of the united farmworkers. i have the honor of serving farmworkers in our nation. we appreciate the chance to speak today on behalf of farmworkers throughout united states. our broken immigration system threatens our nations food supply. today. today, we have farmworkers hope -- forced to work in the shadows of society, in difficult conditions in farms around the country at great aroundges -- and forms a crow the country have great difficulty. members of both political parties are confronting the question of how to fix our broken immigration system. the urgency of the moment requires a straightforward

analysis of the options for us. in that vein, hr 1773 false far thet of the challenging -- challenges facing american agriculture and the nation's food supply. hr 1773 bears a much closer resemblance to the horrific program of the 1940s and 50s -- 1950s than the changes we need for the 21st-century. hr 1773 would replace the existing temporary worker program with a new h2c program. this program would deprive u.s. farmworkers of jobs by minimizing the recruitment obligations of employers. witholdingges and 10% of a worker's wage. it would limit government oversight, the minute workers' accen access to legal assistanc, and reduce the work guarantee.

it would eliminate the requirement that they provide housing for workers who travel to the worksite and eliminate travel expense reimbursement for temporary workers. as a result, hr 1773 would have the practical effect of hermetically cutting wages for the -- dramatically cutting wages for hundreds of farmworkers who are u.s. citizens and permanent legal residence. all these changes reverse 50 years of labor law precedent established in response from both political parties to the terrible abuses of the programs to the 1940's through the 1960's. in addition, the proposal would not provide a roadmap to citizenship for the current farmworker labor force, and would only allow them to apply for temporary worker visas. those of us who work in agriculture know the policies we need. we can elevate farmworkers by making changes to immigration policy that do the following. one, retain as much of the

existing workforce in agriculture. we can keep people in agriculture by honoring farmworkers with the ability to earn permanent legal status. we need to have the ability for the existing farmworkers to earn permanent legal status to encourage people to stay in a culture and honor our american values. two, include basic worker protections that ensure that u.s. worker wages do not theease and tha stabilize cultural workforce. the agreement we came to with the nation nation's agriculture employers does not include many of the wage and labor protections we wanted. our agreement with the growers associations is a compromise, but it does have the basic wage and working protections we needed to ensure that farmworker wages that are already low do not decrease further. we appreciate the chairman's view on immigration comes from a base of his own study of the

issue, and a desire to address the labor needs of agriculture. but we respectfully suggest that there is a better approach. ,e want to elevate farmworkers farm work, so that neither farmworkers without legal status nor guestworkers are the norm in american agriculture. we ask the subcommittee to support a new, comprehensive immigration process that grants current farmworkers and their family members a reasonable and prompt opportunity to earn legal immigration status and citizenship, and ensures future workers are brought here in a manner that elevates farm work in our nation. by having such a system, we can ensure that we continue to have an agricultural industry that is the envy of the world, and honor all of the women and men who have built such an exceptional domestic food supply. thank you very much, mr. chairman. i look forward to your questions. >> the chair would now recognize the gentleman from

virginia, mr. goodlatte. >> thank you. i appreciate you and the ranking members. i do have to get somewhere else, but i was pleased to be able to hear the testimony of all four of you. you are all making a great contribution to our effort to solve this problem of having an agricultural guestworker program that works for america and contributes to avoiding a problem that occurred after the 1986 law went into effect. mr. rodriguez, let me direct my first question to you along those lines. in your testimony, you state that we need to have the ability for the existing farmworkers to earn permanent legal status to encourage people to stay in agriculture. however, your statement is at complete odds with the lessons learned from the legalization farmworkersmmigrant in 1986. when they received permanent residents, many left their fields for jobs in the cities. in fact, a professor of

agricultural economics at the university of california davis, found that by 1987 -- 1997 the percentage of crop workers who had been granted permanent residence through the 1987 act had fallen to only 16%. isn't it the case that if congress were to again grant a special pathway to citizenship to illegal immigrant farmworkers that growers would soon be left without a labor force, or, if you look at it differently, if we were to have a legal status as a part of the overall solution to immigration reform, demandd then have a new for workers because, like 1986, many would go and work elsewhere, creating a shortfall in agriculture that we need to replace with a workable guestworker program, which is where i think my legislation is headed. and, when we do that we are not going to be able to have a failinglow of people

what is a very large demand. some people think 500,000 to one million people short. a steady demand of people if we constantly grant them lawful permanent resident status after they have been a guestworker for x number of years. >> my understanding is, and i know a lot of farmworkers who came through the 1986 program at are still working in agriculture today. the estimate is about 15% for my understanding, 20 years later. , firstlities are that of all, the legislation that we currently have proposed also both. taking into account folks who have spent a lot of time and demonstrated their skills and professional capacities to work in agriculture, that they would be provided legal status and a path to permanent residency, and eventually a path toward

citizenship. we are saying the 800,000 to 1.1 million, whatever that number is, that they have the opportunity to do so. simultaneously, the agricultural industry, the agriculture employers, they fought very hard we debated a lot about the need for a future flow. there are two new visa programs that were designed for that purpose. so i am very confident that there is going to be an opportunity. when the need arises, within the egg industry for future workers, there will be the opportunity. the other reality, i have been doing this as well for several decades. and the actual wages and benefits in this particular industry have not really escalated to the point where it is an attractive industry for people to want to stay and have a career, to raise their families, to gain the opportunity -- >> part of that may be because such a large percentage of those

folks who are not here lawfully are not able to use the kind of leverage they would have if they had legal status. to me thatit seems when you legalize it and look at a real market-based wage, that market-based wage is likely to rise, whereas the current bureaucratic government sets the wage approach, that is likely to miss the target, misty right amount and encourages rather than discourages the use of unlawful immigrant labor. i think we can solve this problem. i think we agree with some of what you are saying. we're just saying that in the future we will not be able to have a steady flow of 800,000 to 1.1 million people flowing through the system able to get a green card, able to leave the workforce, as is happened when they were legalized in the past. we have got to have a real guestworker program that is just that -- a guestworker program. let me ask you one more question. you said in your testimony that h2c program will deprive

people of jobs by minimizing recruiting requirements. is it your opinion that farmers face a shortage because they do not do enough for creating? >> the rate choir meant -- the requirements we were making were in regards to farmworkers being recruited in the united states, sir. >> thank you. my time has expired, mr. chairman. >> any questions you may perhaps submit in writing? >> i would be thrilled to yield my time to you, mr. chairman, if you would like it. ok. >> i would at this point thank the general men from virginia and recognize the ranking member, ms. lofgren. >> thank you. before asking my questions i would like to ask unanimous consent to include in the record of this hearing the list of the 71 farm organizations that have signed off on the agreement with

the farmworkers union on the agricultural program that i referenced earlier. and i would also like to ask unanimous consent to include in the record a letter or statement from the agricultural workforce coalition that is not in support of hr 1773. if i could get unanimous consent for those. >> without objection. two just want to take agtements out of this workforce coalition, which is signed by practically every agricultural employer group in the united states. awc has the consistently ca advocated for a sector -- separate legal status for experienced agricultural workers working in the u.s. for a period of time.

we do not believe the bill's approach for funneling them into temporary non-immigrant programs adequately addresses the needs of the issue. they currently say as to the at will program that it is structurally acceptable. the certainly believe that author of the bill, chairman goodlatte, has every intention make a workable program. his not at all disbelieved good intentions. but i do not think this is a workable plan. ,istening to you, mr. graham , i havee h2b program heard those complaints about the department of labor for my own constituents. there are issues relative to the administration of the program. but i would note that the bill has 500,000 visas. within that cap would have to

be the entire current unauthorized workforce estimated at somewhere like 1.8 million .eople, plus all the new people they would be no room for additional workers. h2b people not currently in the program. if you are worried about the cap now, you would not get a single visa out of the bill because of that cap. , i amhink that, you know the resulting that of the business community and the labor community's negotiation is a perfect plan, but it does have huge numbers visas,se as -- the say considerably more than we are considering today. that is worth thinking about as we move forward. we want to make sure we have

adequate protections in place so that american workers are not disadvantaged by future workers. at the same time, i was thinking about listening to mr. goodlatte about people who left agriculture. i think some people did. it is a hard job. on the other hand, 1986 was 31 years ago. 41you are -- if you were years old in 1986 you would be 71 years old today. you are not in the field. it is an aging workforce. so we have a need for immigrants in some parts of our economy to meet our needs. in ave those needs met legal way and an orderly way, with an adequate number of visas available, is very advantageous for the united states. certainly there, also, to

american workers, as well as immigrants, who would be coming in. we are not the kind of country that really thinks it is right or fair to mistreat people. -- mistreat people who were coming to our country to work. that is not what america is all about. that is not what anyone of you are about. , would just add, mr. rodriguez let me ask you. how many workers do you need in terms of immigrant workers? h2b workers would you have, and how many would you need to have if you did not have all the rigmarole you deal with? >> i would estimate our needs for the seafood industry are less than 15,000. >> ok. and when you get into the meat packing industry, there is a special allocation in the senate bill for meatpacking. what do you think?

can you speak to the whole industry, what the need is for immigrant labor? >> i cannot speak with specificity about the industry. i can tell you we higher between 100 and 200 a week. >> ok. for allly a 500,000 cap existing farmworkers or additional farmworkers bus new industries not currently in the program would be enough in a snap. i will yield back, mr. chairman. >> i think the gentlelady from california. i will recognize myself and then recognize the gentleman from north carolina and the gentleman from illinois. those who think you would be able to find more domestic workers if only you recruited harder and more, what do you say? >> can you repeat the question? >> to those who think you would be able to hire more domestic workers if only you recruited more or harder, what do you say?

>> being in the program now for 14 years and having to go through the rigmarole at the recruitment process and offer two-week training, having numerous people come in and apply to walk out two or three days into the whole process, it offer.much more i crack an can we have done the due diligence and are not finding people out there. >> your testimony is eerily reminiscent of what we heard from, what i hear from peach farmers in my own district. the effort is there, the recruitment is there, and even if domestic workers come they may not stay past lunch. gaddis, do you have similar experiences of different experiences with respect to recruiting domestic workers? >> very similar. the scale is a bit different, but in 2007 at a beef plant in

greeley we decided to start a second shift. we strategize as to how to best do that. literally barnstormed the country the areas where individuals with meatpacking expertise or experience or propensity to even accept a job in meatpacking were located. i can tell you, after three of virtually door-to-door recruitment efforts and some more sophisticated efforts, we did not have enough people. time,ned to, at the refugee labor. i think, in a healthy industry like ours, like mr. graham's, it is a reality, regardless of the circumstances, that there are not enough u.s. workers. i willing with you -- have the secretary of agriculture involved in the administration of the program.

beneficial? >> could you repeat the question? >> how would having the secretary of agriculture being involved in the new h2c -- new h2c program be beneficial to your industry? >> i go back and forth. as someone who administrates human resources, we do not rely h2cor we would not rely on workers as a primary source of labor. but i would tell you, to have access to someone or to a department that is sympathetic to our plight, and situation, outlined by mr. graham and i, that is always helpful. , i believe,r, you are able to speak to the litigious nature of somewhat with respect to the current visa program. in fact, i think you noted that the north carolina growers association has been sued over

30 times and has paid over $5 million in attorneys fees. litigationak to the reforms in chairman goodlatte's bill? >> what we should strive for is to try to solve farmworkers legal problems, grievances, etc., quickly and efficiently. the best way to do that is not with attorneys and lawsuits that are very expensive. north carolina growers association started in 1990, signing the collective bargaining agreement with the farm worker organizing committee, an affiliate of afl- cio. we have a grievance procedure in place on our farms with our workers now. so it can work. so can provide a system that farmworkers and farmers can solve their problems without having to go to court. >> sticking with you. why should you be required to

provide housing and transportation when other industries do not? >> that is a great question. the farmers i work for have been providing housing for a long time. it is a benefit that draws workers to our farms and has creates the desire for them to want to stay there. even though this proposal does not mandate housing be provided, i would suspect that going forward our farmers would continue to provide housing. but it is a burden, especially in california. housing is a huge issue. something that has got to be fixed. >> thank you. now recognizing the general men from illinois, mr. gutierrez. >> thank you so much. first of all, i want to thank owdy for calling this

hearing. i want to join the ranking member zoe lofgren and expressing a desire to work with the other side of the aisle on a bipartisan -- in a bipartisan manner. one of the things immigration has been able to do here in washington dc is kind of, there is benghazi, the ap, everything else going on in washington dc, and we are going to vote to repeal obamacare one more time today, i think, the 36th, 37th time. so democrats defended it, republicans attack it, but we have not allowed any of that to come down and poison the well in our immigration discussions with republicans and democrats. we have cap that all outside. and i think that speaks, i

believe, to the desire of the american people, and for us to be responsive to the desire of the american people. so i wanted to thank all of you for your testimony and your work, and for everything that you do. i think it is important that we hear from every quarter. i also want to echo something that congresswoman zoe lofgren said. it seems to me that if outta here, the private -- if outta here, the private sector, a recent agreement with those who were present the labor community, we should not meddle. it seems to me there is no reason tom a when there is an agreement that has already been reached between those who represent the farmworkers and those who represent so many other diverse industries, why we do not simply accept that men and women of good faith have

bargained and reached an agreement, why we cannot embrace that. it is something i think we need to ask ourselves we move forward. , would like to say that for me this is a very important part of what would become comprehensive immigration reform. a somewhat unique part of what would be comprehensive immigration reform because of the relationship the farmworker for justice, for a movement embodied in cesar iavez, in a movement that believe is making america a better and greater place for social justice. it really is in the support that across the america -- that across america farmworkers have, a special place we not only have for farmworkers every night when we sit down for dinner to ed crops they have harvested for us, to do the backbreaking,

dirty, filthy work that we all know we have trouble, let's face it. we have had testimony here before because chairman gowdy have brought -- has brought people here that we have to make a fundamental decision, will we eat food grown in foreign countries by foreign hands, or food grown here and protected by hands?foreign nobody here is sending their kids to school to become a farmworker. the population does not exist in rural areas. that population is not there. we will need people to continue to come to america to do that work. i just want to say, it is backbreaking work. when we discuss competence of immigration reform, i think we have to get away from the notion we have to stand up for farmworkers or stand up to those that provide us our food. that is an essential ingredient to our safety. watch the future. food is going to become a

condition of your survival as a nation. who picks that food will become a condition. i would like to ask arturo -- the issue of citizenship has been brought up. from your perspective, why is it that farmworkers become citizens of the united states? be about the opportunity to become citizens of the united states? rex thank you very much -- >> thank you very much. first of all, farmworkers have been here now for, in some cases, since 1986. since the last immigration bill. they have demonstrated to our nation that, as has been mentioned by many members already, it is difficult work, hard work. but it requires a lot of skills. the farmworkers who are here today have come here because they want to make a contribution to america. they want to make a contribution to our economy.

and they are willing to do what many have chosen not to do any longer here in this nation. so, it is a way of honoring those individuals and a way of inuring that they do stay the agricultural industry to continue to be -- meet for the requirements necessary in order to gain a path to legal permanent residency and eventually for citizenship. so, i believe in terms of ensuring that we are going to have a secure labor force, that we take the estimated 800,000 to one point one million unauthorized farmworkers currently working in agriculture today, we give them the opportunity to work and to gain the legal permanent residency to earn that, as everyone else would undercut the hands of immigration reform, and to eventually the path to citizenship so they can enjoy the fruits of america just like anyone else can hear in this

nation. so we welcome that opportunity, and we hope that as we continue the process, that becomes the decision that is made by members of the congress as well as in the senate to move forward. >> thank you. , as you move forward, you will see the bill. when it comes to the high-tech industry, i assure you they will say, bring tens of thousands of workers to america, but they will give them green cards and allow them to bring their families. fight for your, people and your industry the same way google and apple fight for high-tech. somebody has to do the backbreaking work. thank you so much. >> thank you. i will recognize mr. garcia from florida, then i will recognize myself and be the final questioner. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

other day, for somebody who does not agree with doestion -- someone who not agree with immigration reform said to me, if someone walked into your house and you did not invite them, walked around and left, you want them prosecuted. my response was, if somebody walked into my house, filled my refrigerator with fresh fruit, cleaned my walls, painted my tose, put my grandmother bed, then mowed my lawn, i think i would own -- over the money, not prosecute. it will come for the best our country has to offer, opportunity and freedom. clearly they paid a great price for it. i want to talk about something that you have been working on for a very long time, for years, a negotiated agreement between your folks and the chamber of commerce, which in truth is what we should be talking about here, right? an agreement that you and -- in good faith negotiated.

mr. wicker was part of the group that signed off on that agreement. i want you to tell me about the time you put into that. did you think you were just negotiating with the chamber, or did you think you were negotiating in good faith to put a bill together that would be accepted by members of the other side? rex we actually became engaged -- thank you very much -- we became engaged and initially in this process to bring about immigration reform for the agricultural workers and the industry as a whole with agriculture employers, dating back to the year 2000. about 13 years ago. at that particular time, we met with the ceo's and presidents of a number of agricultural associations throughout united states. and we initially fashioned ag being utilizedon and discussed and debated for many years now, about six months manye were approached by

of the same agricultural employees in different associations -- employers in different associations to look at a new immigration reform package for the agricultural industry that would impact employers as well as farmworkers. and we began that particular process. as a result, we fashioned an agreement that we thought was a compromise and yet was something all the parties could agree to. we met with 12 different associations that ranged from the american farm bureau to the western growers association to sheepherders, darius, all the various citrus associations from florida, all the major agricultural associations throughout united states, came to the table. our voices were all heard and debated and discussed. we finally reached an agreement.

conference of bill on the senate side was being submitted. >> thank you for your work. hopefully it will not be ignored. i believe you were part of the group that signed off on this. am i correct? to testify i am here for north carolina growers. it is part of the agricultural workforce coalition that negotiated the compromise that resulted in the senate bill. >> how did you feel about that compromise? >> i think it is fine. i do not think it will pass the house. we need to get a bill that will pass the house and go to congress and get to the presidents desk. >> you will let us take care of the politics of it. but i want to get an understanding. mr. rodriguez described it. could you give me your sense, as somebody on the other side working through this bill, the

compromise required, the struggle, maybe give us a sense from your perspective. >> i was not directly involved in the negotiations. >> i'm sure they were checking in with you through it, right? you were part of discussions as the negotiations were going on? rex sure. -- >> sure. we think farmers got as good a bill as they possibly could out of the senate compromise. >> thank you. mr. rodriguez, you have been in the fields and know how hard it is to work. toda someone from the other side allegedly their jobs american workers are anxious to do. do you find that to be true, that u.s. workers are willing to do the work that american farmworkers are doing today, in particular those without documentation? rex actually, -- >> actually, we estimate about 600,000 u.s. legalrkers, citizens or

permanent residence in agriculture today, we believe that number would grow significantly when this legislation passed and gets implemented and gives farmworkers a right to gain legal status in working in the agricultural industry. so there is a sizable number of folks who continue to work in agriculture. we hope that through this process as well, we continue to elevate farm work as an honorable work, a career all of us can pursue in the united states. mr. chairman, thank you. i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you, mr. garcia. i will recognize myself for five minutes. i want to thank all of our witnesses here today. i want to particularly thank mr. anker, who has been informed, intelligent, and reliable voice on these issues in north carolina for a long time. and i have known him beyond

this capacity in this job, even when i was a staffer here on capitol hill. so welcome. i want to turn specifically to north carolina. mr. wicker, you were talking about the 500,000 worker cap on this bill, and how it should really be uncapped. i want to talk specifically about north carolina now. how many guestworkers are reusing in north carolina? it will be 10,000, maybe, out of a national total of 70,000. >> these 10,000 workers, what percentage does that represent of the total amount of workers that we need in north carolina to handle these agricultural jobs? >> that represents in the range to 15%. >> and the folks who are making

up the difference, the workers making up the difference, where are they coming from, what are they composed of? >> that group is largely composed of undocumented workers. everybody is in agreement across the board that the overwhelming majority, between 50% and 70% of seasonal agricultural workers, are undocumented workers. >> the program is capped at 500,000, we in north carolina , 100,000 ofyou say those would have to go to north carolina? and the rest of the states would have to divide up what was left? >> yes. >> ok. a few other questions. the concept of at will temporary guestworkers enjoys strong support. what are some of the advantages of hiring at will guestworkers? >> the concept here is largely borne out of west coast agriculture.

the ad will provisions contemplate having a workforce that can move more freely from --rt-term i culture jobs agriculture job to short-term agriculture job. aghave an extremely diverse portfolio and have been able to string a lot of shorter-term jobs together, tobacco, cucumber, sweet potato. we overwhelmingly prefer contract provisions because margins are so tight on the farm. we want to know if we're going to the bank to borrow $1 million in operating money and push our equity into the center of the the table and plant these crops. we want to know we have workers who want to stay until the end of the harvest season. >> you bring up a valid point. you might bring up a guestworker , thenk on a tobacco crop that emerges over into a sweet

potato crop. for too long, they have been here for a period of time that takes them out of the classification of being a seasonal worker because they are working in multiple crops. what are the competitions there? >> the current program is capped at one year. our growers have figured out a way to live inside the parameters of this program. the longest workers we have in north carolina are 10 months. agriculture is changing and consolidating. we are moving to a, especially in the sunbelt states. we will have to move to a longer-term visa in the future. >> are there any problems? under obamacare, seasonal workers are exempted from being covered by obamacare, correct? want to ask me a technical question about obamacare -- yes, as i understand, the two tests you

have to complete, you have to have more than 50 permanent employees. when you get into that longer visa -- >> they may very well be covered. >that would add a significant cost to our farmers per worker. >> that is absolutely true. is expiring.ime i will confer with my distinguished ranking member. i will recognize the distinguished lady from texas, ms. jackson lee. >> thank you, for your patience. .e were on the floor debating thank you for your courtesy.

i do not want to miss the opportunity, first of all, to thank the witnesses for being here to a knowledge legislation that is before us. over the years, we have had congressman lofgren working tirelessly under the support of mr. berman. mr. agree does knows we have been on a long journey. i cannot -- mr. rodriguez knows we have been on a long journey. i cannot start any question without saying the real commitment of the nation is copper hence of immigration reform. what i remember in terms of our work, the years going past, we worked on issues such as poor housing for farmworkers, poor health conditions, poor working conditions. we were at the bare minimum of trying to create a decent way of life. i'm also reminded of the friendship of cesar chavez and martin luther king.

it has been a long, long journey. and i frankly believe that if we look at this issue and do not provide a component that deals with the rights of workers, then we may be going in the same cycle again. so i just want to ask mr. rodriguez -- i may have time for someone else -- to be able to share with me your thoughts about whether there is a framework for protecting workers. i want to ask, as sort of a pointed question, that farmworkers are everybody. if 500 american workers wanted to come and do that work, everybody is embraced as a farm worker. is that not right, mr. rodriguez? if we felt the needs of farmworkers were people who were here in the united states, nobody is making the decision to weed them out or not let the farming industry recruit him.

let's put that on the line that the farm industry, we started as farmers, obviously. people have moved to cities and moved to different capacities, but i do not want it to be said that we either could not find her would not recruit individuals who are here in the united states. you might want to comment on that. then, the framework of the underlying legislation in terms of protecting workers. ,> thank you very much congresswoman jackson lee. you know, one of the reasons why we do not feel that hr 1773 really is the type of legislation we are looking for here, and what we spend so much time sitting down with the employer associations over the last two years and months, was to really design a program that ensured that these jobs of u.s. workers were protected first of all. it was very important to maintain their jobs, that they have an opportunity to maintain their jobs of the wage levels they have. and we would not utilize and

bringing guestworkers for the purpose of lowering the wages or deteriorating the working conditions. , thate find with hr 1773 they take away a lot of those protections. my understanding is there would be no paid transportation, inbound transportation, for workers brought it in may country to work here on the crops. as a result, it is very difficult for them to pay the money up front. a come from countries and more than likely situations where they have not been working prior to that in terms of coming here. somebody talked about housing earlier. it is important. the lowest paid workers in our country, and where are they going to get money to pay rents, defined housing, especially in rural immunity -- communities that already have a difficult time achieving that?

without providing some kind of housing or housing allowance there is not going to be the opportunity for people, we will go back to the camps that we had during the older days, reverting back. an enforcement mechanism, issue of real importance to us to make sure there is someone who will be watching and observing and ensuring that all the parties are doing what they should be doing in relationship to that. utmost wages is of importance, ensuring that once again we have a wage level that , that is going to again provide the workers with what they deserve and what they should be paid to be able to work here. and that they are not utilized to undercut what u.s. workers and american workers are making at the particular farm where they are at. >> sorry, i had a coughing spell.

i do not want to be unfair to the growers. one quick question, what mr. rodriguez indicated, we need to work on together. one of the things that will help you, of course, if our colleagues will allow the affordable care act to stay in place, you will have some form of health insurance, depending on how we formulated the process of immigration reform. respect the is, we industry. it is an important industry for both united states and the food industry, growers, farmers, and the world. would you welcome some of the rodriguez is. talking about, housing, certain rights, so that you have a healthy and committed and dedicated workforce that is there for you when you need them? distinctionssome to be drawn between the workforce mr. rodriguez is

involved with and hours in the meatpacking industry. ours are goodu, paying jobs that provide employees without a lot of education to become upwardly mobile. that is why meatpacking has historically been a first- generation job. ,e are, first of all supportive of the initial 36 month length of stay. for us in the meatpacking thestry, the coalition, critical issue on that front relates to the subsequent stage of 18 months. it takes is between four months and eight months to teach somebody a trade, a meaningful trade. in order to get a return on that investment we would need them to stay longer. the other thing we would ask for families,tion of

spouses and dependents. >> all witnesses would not mind if we improved the legislation and put in some of the features that mr. rodriguez has spoken of? not hear your question. >> you would not mind fixing the legislation to put in some of the features mr. rodriguez has spoken of to make it more palatable for the worker? >> lets get together and talk about it. it is all about a balanced package. we have to take care of the workers. the gentlelady's time has expired. >> yes or no? h2b program,m the some of the things we talked about we were doing. we have no problems on those. >> thank you. >> i thank the gentlel

texaaring. thank you for all are witnesses. objection, all members will have five additional days to provide additional questions for the witnesses or additional items for the record. this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed bynational captioning institute] [captions copyright nationalcable satellite corp. 2013] >> next, "q&a" with national medal of science laureate s james gates junior. the british house of commons and then a review of recent elections in pakistan. monday, journalists talk about how they report on intelligence amid national security concerns. "eakers include "new york times

chief washington correspondent david singer, "washington post" priest, and a former white house security adviser to president bush. live coverage begins 11:00 on c- span. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> this week, national medal of science laureate jim gates junior discusses his life, his education, and his work as professor at the university system of maryland, the professor of physics, and the director at the center for string and particle theory at the university of maryland. >> how would you define the word, science? >> the method by which humanity acquires the most for sites understanding of our home, our