they are doing ok. they arelike benefiting from regulations. host: we will leave it there. " will beon journal back tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. eastern time. enjoy your week and the rest of your tuesday. they queue for watching. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> here is a look at what is coming up today. o'clock 15 we will bring you an

event at the new america foundation, looking at new online radicalization. the debate over radicalize asian and homegrown extremism has been renewed after the boston marathon bombing. peter bergson, author of the longest war and peter newman and strategy of terrorism. coming up at 6:00 we will show you an event looking at u.s.- russia of relations. he resigned from the state department of the iraq war. the offer fellowship alumni association is hosting the event.

ntsb wants to lower the legal blood alcohol limit. here is a preview from the meeting. >> today we meet to consider the safety report reaching zero, actions to eliminate alcohol- impaired driving. this is critical. impaired driving remains one of the biggest killers in the united states. our nationo today saw the deadliest alcohol impaired driving crashed in u.s. history. pickup,driver drove his he hit a school bus and killed 24 children and three adult chaperons, injuring 34 more. today our thoughts are with those families in kentucky to a recognizing this 25th anniversary of that crash.

driverse year impaired would kill thousands more. let us look at how well we are doing as a nation to address the national epidemic of alcohol impaired driving. as i will explain we have made progress since that deadly night in kentucky. it has been not nearly enough. of the the first year 21,113 peoplem, died in u.s. crashes involving alcohol impaired driving. this represented nearly one-half of all highway deaths. the percentage of alcohol- impaired driving is about one- third of all highway fatalities. from one- percentage

half to one-third of highway fatalities has taken a great effort by thousands of dedicated people in many organizations. >> you can see the entire meeting on drunk driving regulations tonight. we will talk with david clark to get his take on the proposed rules. we will hear from you via facebook and your phone calls. it starts tonight at 8:00 eastern. onlineup next, a look at teaching and its impact. an increasing number of colleges are developing as part of their curriculum discuss their benefits and including accessibility. the form was hosted by the university of pennsylvania which was the first group of colleges to offer free on-line courses.

the president of the university moderate's the event. [applause] >> good afternoon. it is wonderful to see some many of you is here on a beautiful, sunny friday afternoon. 2013 forum.ur i would like to extend a special welcome on behalf of all to over four hundred 50 wonderful guests from near philadelphia and boston and as far away as attenborough, and melm, hong kong, bourne. it is quite remarkable that as we gather together on this sunny friday afternoon to explore open learning and the future of higher education we have lots of skeptics in this country and the

education, whether especially higher education, changes. i would like to ask those of you here today. -- those of you here today to join with me and think about this. have many other points to explore today. i would ask that no one ever again in doubt the endless capacity of and less education and innovation to inspire great minds to work together. we have some great-here today. this is our fourth forum. it is a public discussion of globally important issues, featuring some of the foremost thinkers of our day. it is made possible and through the generous support and inspiration of the university with us.who are here

would you please stand up so we can thank you? >> i would like to begin just to give an overview of our topic with a representative " about new educational technology. . this writer is skeptical. he says it is to be mistrusted because it brings the appearance of wisdom instead of wisdom itself. this could be a critique of online learning. the author is none other than play tough. dialogue recording a in the year 370 pc e.

what is the technology in question, what is it that gives it the appearance of wisdom? the technology is writing. suspicious that writing is an invention that will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learned to use it because they will not practice their memory. new educational technologies are almost always met with suspicion, with great suspicion, with skepticism if not cynicism. at that time the purpose of that faculty was challenged as never before, but many times since. why sit through a lecture to

gain knowledge when on your own time you can simply read it in a book? from that time until now our universities have not only survived, they have thrived. they have changed dramatically, as well. we are here to talk about one which certainly seems dramatic. how do we wisely judged and prudently plan for the new internet technologies and education, particularly as we experienced an explosion of whatve online courses of are now called "mooks?" this new educational technology burst onto the scene just five years ago. failure isard that

an orphan while success has many parents. countless individuals and universities are willing to claim heritage. course ontanford artificial intelligence that true what hundred 60,000 students in the fall of 2011. it cost everyone to sit up and pay attention. year, 2012, became the year of the mooks. three university collaboration's emerged to promote this new technology and the offer high-quality courses to anyone in the world with an internet connection who can speak the language and they offered it for free. and then it turns out if you did not speak the language there would be some online who translated for you. penn is one of the founding far

-- pounding partners -- founding partners. that was less than one year ago. our faculty has since completed tenet courses on the class forms with the total enrollment of more than four hundred 50,000 students. those are just the courses we have completed. there are another 400,000 students enrolled right now. those 450,000 are more than 18 times the total enrollment at hand. you begin to understand the possibilities and the opportunities that this new technology provides. how it us knows exactly will play out. i have from the beginning called this a bold experiment. are we heading for an educational revolution or will this just allow us to do more of what we have always done and in a somewhat new way? what are the opportunities and

what are the most likely unforeseen consequences. i am delighted to say we have a stellar group of panelists with us today to answer my probing questions. i have the privilege of asking questions and they are on the spot for answering them. those are the rules. those are one of my to privileges as president. pulitzer prize-winning journalist and a columnist who has been with the new york times for more than two decades, serving in capacities that have ranged from middle east bureau chief to achieve diplomatic correspondent, white house correspondent, and international economic correspondent. "the 1995 he has served as new york times" for affairs columnist, on which he has written extensively on which technology changing the lives of individuals and society in which

they live. his best-selling and pulitzer prize-winning bookhas been read all around the world. i have everyone of them on my bookshelf marked up. it is a fabulous privilege. come. theha has been undersecretary of education in the obama administration since to the us nine. to oversees policies related post secondary education, adults in career technical education, federal student aid, and a wide range of other white house educational initiatives. president obama has set a goal for this country to have the best educated, most competitive work force in the world by 2020

as measured by the proportion of college graduates. the president has charged under secretary cantor with implementing the policies to make this happen. prior to appointment she served as chancellor of one of the largest community college districts in the nation, located in the heart of california's silicon valley. combinesis someone who an understanding and appreciation of education and innovation it is certainly more cantor.certainly martha welcome, martha. [applause] william kerwin has been chancellor of the university system of maryland for more than a decade. ,e were just talking earlier

when i spent a year at the university of maryland college .ark and william was there previously he served as president of ohio state university and before that as president of the university of maryland's college park. he is a widely respected and saw after expert on the biggest challenges facing higher education in america, especially affordability, cost containment, and innovation. chancellor car when it shares of national resources board higher education. chairsellor kerwin the national resources board of

higher education. welcome. is the professor in the computer science department at stanford university. her broad expertise includes machine learning with applications for biology, and personalized medicine. she helped usher -- he era is a social entrepreneurship company -- sara is a social entrepreneurship company. year itry of this included a 62 partners offer a 300 classis with more than 200 -- with more than 2.5 million students enrolled.

welcome and thank you, daphne. [applause] let us get started. daphne, you are on the spot. the last shall be first. 2012ew york times called the year of the mooks. online education has been here for decades. is this hype or is there something special about mooks? >> i think there is something special about mooks. it has to do with several things. massive m l is the mooks.n o in the what we have been able to do by

of technology and design is to provide an outstanding educational experience to people everywhere in what is effectively 0% margin of cost to students. these are people that would never have access to the educational experience that we take for granted. been said that mooks are a good thing for leap schools but, "there will be negative effects on smaller colleges." for system runs the gamut what you would call a flagship state university. do you expect dramatically

different effects on different campuses? >> i do. because i think college park will be a producer of mooks. my hope is all of higher education can take advantage of new ideas and innovations like mooks to address what i think is the most pressing issue facing our country, and that is our inability to educate our next generation to the quality degree that are demanded. risk inwe are at great the united states. we talk about the competitiveness requirements. ist cannot be looked over the social equity aspect.

to come from the lowest quartile of income have an 8% chance of getting a college degree. if you are in the upper quartile it is an 80% chance. tolege has become a gateway a good job and successful career. cannot be the america we have been if we do not reach out and educate a low income students. cost and access can only be addressed in this -- through innovations like and i am so excited about the potential they all offer. >> i think of this as mooks 101. the basics are you can deliver a lot with a very low marginal cost. is it going to work? we are talking about the basics -- you said low income students

are the most left out. it is absolutely true. no matter what outrage cases like penn do, and we do a lot -- we are not going to capture all of those students. are we promising -- are your people in your neck avoids of demos and excited by this? are we promising too much? >> i cannot speak to the journalism side so let me try to put into context. all of thetalk about separate boxes, and that its technology, education, and the workplace. to me they are seamlessly connected.

i will do the one minute version of "the world is flat" updated. maybe two. i have one rule of business -- whatever can be done will be done. the only question is will it be done by you or to you? just do not think it will not be done. "by you or toy you" that means by the united states? clocks that a strike again >> this is constructive competition creed -- >> that is right. >> this is constructive competition. a platformcreated where more people can meet, connect, and collaborate at zero

everfrom more places than before. that was thanks to the merger of three things, the personal computer in which everyone offers their own content, the internet which allows people to transmit their content digitally anywhere, and the allowsce software that people to collaborate on each other's content. that all came together between 1995 and 2004. revolutionthe mooc's possible was a second revelation between 2004 and today. you have seen a huge inflexion was was the size -- that disguised by the post 9/11 prices. 9/11 crisis.

when i sat down to the new book with michael the first thing i did was get the first edition of "the world is flat." i opened up the index and looked under f, facebook wasn't in it. facebook did not exist, twitter in was ahere, linked prison, skype was a type. o. [laughter] [applause] all that happened after "the world is flat." we went from connected to hyper- connected. the last point i will make is that it has raised the whole global curve.

the whole global curve just rose because every person has cheaper, easier, faster access to above average software, above average in addition, above average innovation, and above average genius. what is most important social and economic factor of the time is that average is officially over. -- to taket is over the current point -- if you do not have a high-school degree there is nothing for you. the technology is related to the inequality and opportunity. in a very put this , it just som happens to crescent wintley be given by the press -- to coincidently be given by a professor named to robert

price. the first course is to get accredited by the american council of the council -- american council of education. it is visually stunning. he is not only a great scholar and a teacher applied math but he is an artist. dante.s this course is going to be available for everybody around the world. subjectthat it will be -- will be something that inspires more young people who did not have access to it in a traditional education sense to learn advance cup tennis. calculus.d you are on the spot, you care about access and quality. arnie duncan has said, "every capable hard-working and

responsible student should be able to afford to go to college ." that is not a democratic or republican dream, that is the american dream. quizis a multiple choice -- automatic grading would be easy but i am sure you will have a somewhat untraditional answer to this. >> we will deal with this. a.) increase access, b.) decrease the quality of education to young both, or d.)) none of the above. b.they will do both a and they have already increased

access so they will continue to increase access. that is a no-brainer. >> that is a headline. that really is the headline because there is no doubt -- this is quite remarkable because we are living through this. there is no doubt that have already increased access. there is an autistic young the americanok poetry course online because that young person, because of his optimism, he could not do it in person. that is amazing. >> we have been doing panels all year since then together. i was so struck in your introduction because i wrote the first, about this in may. at the time it was two hundred 30,000 students. -- two hundred 30,000 students. >> 3.2.

same calendarthe year. >> when we started we were four universities. he has really carried this forward. he and ed of ross, we moved -- nobody should say that higher education cannot move quickly when we want to move quickly. just to piggyback on what tom lab -- i thought of being a scientist and having a. petrie dish. church to have two and then for and then eight -- first you have two and then a four and then eight. do we have 24 now? are redoubling? it is quite remarkable and it is good. let me get back to martha. access and quality, how can we bring them together? >> i had a meeting this week

with the head of higher education in one of our 50 states. he just completed four mooc courses and "introduction to computer science" in four different moocs. he said he had how those courses were taught, and when he came away with. my first question was, did you finish? he finished all four courses. what i said in answer to b, it has the potential to increase quality and decrees quality, it is that variation that we in the federal government and many people across the country want leadership, who is dispersed all over the world right now -- >> they are all right here. givek them to continue to

us the best quality and demonstrate how you are giving us that best quality and what we are learning from what we -- you are doing. i asked daphne a couple of weeks courses, is taking mooc and you said 80% of course takers and coursera have a baccalaureate degree. my question is who does not have a baccalaureate degree and are they completing mooc courses, and at what level? do they have the potential to teach basic math and how to process that we can get more students completing advanced calculus so we can get more people ready for the jobs that are going to be here that tom talks about? >> it is a great question. step to an essential speak to your point. if we are going to raise the

level of society within the united states and equally and even more so across the world, we need access to education, even more so than we do here, you have to start from the basics. the basics are introductory opera, physics, calculus, and then you bring them up to the next level when they can complete a baccalaureate degree. it is essential that we provide a pathway to success for students to come in with so very little. on thent to comment quality issue. that is so central to this discussion. we, in higher education, cannot meet our higher obligation to society look into the future if we cannot find lower-cost means of delivering high quality higher education. overcoming what bill calls the cost disease. the thing that excites me about

the moocs -- but i still have questions -- is can they be used in traditional campuses to drive down the cost but maintain the quality of the delivery? we have to answer that question. we are actually running some experiments, working with ithaca, the not-for-profit in new york, in partnership with the gatesfunding from foundation, running side-by-side comparisons, where classes are being taught in traditional ways but we are using the mooc in other sections of the same class. then we will compare the cost and the outcome. we have to answer that question. >> so let's be clear about this. teaching is not the same thing as learning and what we really care about is not what is taught, but what is learned.

daphne, what is the potential for assessing learning via moocs? in other words, the front page ,f "the new york times" today it is very hard to wake up any morning and not see some article about moocs or on-line learning. story aboutge had a a new automated trading system that uses artificial intelligence. this is your field, daphne. artificial intelligence technology to instantly grade students assignments with no human input. moocs andure of higher education that students learn with no human input, other than the creation of the moocs

themselves? how do we best push moocs forward so that a high proportion of students are learning, not just that we are teaching them in innovative ways. to first answer the middle part of your question, do we hope most students will learn without human intervention. that is certainly not our hope. for me, the best model is the one that the chancellor was just describing, where the mooc content is embedded in a live setting, with a live instructor. >> that is called the blended model. >> i think it is really important because that personal relationship between a student and an instructor is something that is really special and unique. most of us can trace back critical decision that we made in our lives and careers to the role model for inspiration that

we got from a teacher. we do not want to take that human out of the loop. assessments aside, it is critical to maintain, at least for those students who have the opportunity to attend college and be mentored by a live human, that is an important part of the experience, and you can do it based on high-quality content, in the same way that you could do before. as you said, textbooks. you could do it with a high- quality text book. >> i think it is really helpful to have an historical perspective and understand, when the text book came out, many people were proclaiming the end of in-class education, and that could have been further from the truth. the same thing is likely to be thatfor moocs, except moocs have an even greater

potential for this globalization of education. there is nothing physically that you actually have to send around the world. it is right there in cyberspace. tom, he recently wrote that nothing has more potential to enable us, rematch in higher education than moocs. thatis it about moocs gives them that potential, and is that true, do you think, for the classic liberal arts and as it is fores, computer science courses? the do not live in university setting so i see it in a broader context. to me, one of the exciting thing when i think about moocs -- first of all, in terms of the time line, if this were justhed, alta vista was

invented, we have not seen google yet. when we do our next panel, i am sure it will be totally different. this is so early. and look at the speed of change already. that is number one. i think of this in terms of foreign policy. we are struggling with a country like egypt, the arab awakening. how do we respond to this? this was such a youth-led a movement, young people living in the world where they can see and touch, appreciating what they have behind, but also that they cannot realize their full potential. one of the ways that we can honor this movement and respond to it, other than selling more egyptian army and air force, imagine if we rented 50 schoolrooms, installed 50

computers in each room, got them high speed and wit, they could take any coursera course they wanted, we hired an arabic- english speaking instructor. the whole thing would cost us one f-16. imagine the impact you could make which would connect with what is one -- young people want, which is tools to realize their full potential. there are enormous possibilities. i will say one thing to your point about teachers. i am a journalist, i was inspired by my 10th grade journalist teacher. and you had a campus college experience. >> absolutely. a friend of mine wrote a book and we were talking about this last night. in the industrial revolution, we

made a small ask of people. we ask them to join a union, come to work every day, and do a repetitive tasks, whether in the service or production sector. -- we not making very big are now making very big asks of people, critical thinking, reinventing themselves every year. you can do for motivating through carrots and sticks. requires like that motivation. one of the most interesting things in education writing today is we have three objectives, a basic knowledge. second, we now the critical thinking and problem solving. third, persistence and motivation. there is one thing about this world. it enables, it inspires, it empowers, but it demands much

more self motivation, and that starts, i think, with an inspired teacher. >> tom talked about what we could do. of us? what is your ask we ask a lot of the government. i remember i was inspired, like millions of others, by john f. kennedy. asked when you can do for your country. what can we, as educators, do with this technology? whether is larger egg -- running a large public system, or many of this here who run private universities. what can we do to make that access and quality come together? tom'sill build on,'s

comment on inspiration. i am reminded with the fact that many kids lose " by third grade. one out of four children live in poverty in the u.s. 42% of people are not prepared for college, much less, those hundreds and thousands of dropping out of high school. can the equity agenda be accelerated to close achievement gaps through mooc education? that is a hard question and it will be answered in different ways, is the technology available, access and affordability available? if you look at the whole spectrum of people in higher education and people who are not, you have to look at the pre-k to 20. that is why i mention the comments about algebra and the

like, reading and writing, basic education with the inspiration that will give kids at all levels, and adults, promise. american read at a high- school level. >> at every level, there are people that could be brought in and not lost. at every level, we could bring more people in. you see the full spectrum in your system. how would you answer martha's question, can we bring more people in and lose fewer americans to the inability -- if you lose the inability to actually sustain themselves in the job market -- >> that is such a critical question for our nation. the thing that gives me hope, picking up on something that tom

said, we are at the very early stage of moocs and other sources of technology in education. one of the powers that comes from the moocs and other innovation is, using the internet and other technology, we are collecting the data. students know quickly when they are not getting the material. so there is instant feedback. i used to teach a touch less class to a room like this. every six weeks, i would know if they were having trouble on something because i would give a test. with the moocs and other forms, we know instantly. progresses' can upgrade the quality of their teaching. >> and that is the opposite of threatening. >> there is a continuous improvement over time.

>> you did it every six weeks. i used to teach a class on ethics and public policy. one day, i saw there was a notebook left open, a student had left her notebook. i needed to find out who the student was, so i looked in the notebook and i started reading her notes on my lecture, and i said, that is not what i said. it was a feedback loop that i did not have. this has the possibility, not just for our enterprise, but for ethics courses, getting the feedback loop of what students are learning. >> there is this adaptive learning sequence in in in real time that will ultimately be one of the most powerful consequences of this technology. >> there has been a lot of discussion of moocs as a way to decrease costs, and there is an element for that, but for us,

the biggest potential contribution here is access and quality. there is a tremendous opportunity for us to provide a much higher quality educational experience to students because of the instant feedback that students and instructors get. the students also know they are not getting it, and they know it immediately, not three weeks later when they get their homework back. try have the opportunity to it again and get it. this is something called mastery learning and it has educational benefits. the blend of learning formats that has you giving guidance and getting help from an instructor targeted to your specific need -- you can get a group together -- and having discussions of that they can move on to the next page. that will give rise to cost improvements, because the biggest cost to society is failure. is nodding in

agreement. it is my job to put you on the hook. put cost aside. you are a professor at stanford university. you are also the founder of coursera. tuition and a total fees north of $50,000 a year. website, andtheir i quote, says that they want to educate millions for free. so mothers and fathers would be asking, why did we go through a rigorous process and pay tens of thousands of dollars to for something that you are giving away for free? >> football.

[laughter] that was a joke. first of all, that is the question that i could direct ride back to you, as the president of the institution -- right back to you, as the president of an institution. give my answer and leave you to give yours later. gets atwhat a student an institution like stanford or is qualitatively very different from the open access moocs. they have the opportunity to engage in meaningful dialogue with some of the greatest minds in their generation. faculty who was various -- very carefully selected through different admissions process, hiring by these institutions, and at the same time, by peers

who were selected by a similar admissions process, whether undergraduate or graduate lull. so you get a spectacular and unique experience by coming and spending those years on a college campus, like stanford or the same time, does not devalued the education that you can give people for free. it may not be the same, but it is pretty darn good. question toair redirect. it is something that i have bought a lot about. ,he first thing i would say because it is the first thing happening while we go from this our faculty who is doing these moocs is also enriching their classroom experience by using them.

weather is in greek and roman calculus, or advanced , there is this flipped classroom, even if it is not fully flipped. this is new usage of that word. they are incorporating much more interaction into the classroom and our students can learn more online as well. and our students love it. as we aren-win creating more quality education on line for students who cannot either be admitted or afford to take the time off for a four- year residential college experience. we are also making our experience here better. i think that is the way that places like ours are going to

increase access by also increasing the quality of the experience right here on campus. most thrilling thing to come into a classroom and just hear your professors speak to you and not have interaction. it is thrilling when you can maximize the interactive time. >> one of the byproducts of the movement and coursera will be to force professors to take pedagogy seriously. >> and they want to. why did they choose this profession otherwise? >> you need a license to teach kindergarten in this country but not physics. there will not be a "like" button for this. you can see, you have to take communication seriously. you cannot just show up.

i'm going to read my book notes or whatever. pedagogy will really benefit from that. me, whichoften ask institutions are going to be threatened by this revolution? the public or the privates, top tier, middle, community colleges? my answer is that that is not the right stratification. the one that are threatened are the only you -- are the ones that do not understand the need to deliver valley to their students. why is higher education so important for our time? it is not to get content. you need content to be creative but it is toe,

develop your capacity for creativity and innovation. you are a former chair of the council on education, and it recently provided recommendations for some of coursera's moocs. but it is to impact before credit-bearing moocs for americans in higher education? >> critical. we cannot get to where we need to go on as we figure this out. how we give credentials and credits for moocs. what we are trying to do within our university system is to bring the moocs into our traditional classroom setting, in certain types of courses. across the country, we have to figure this out, course credit. withully, we can use moocs high school students who want to go to college. they come to college with credits already in place. we give credit by examination all the time. why not let them get credits by

examination for a mooc? impact before credit-bearingabsolutely we have this out. what the ace is doing is a positive step. >> pushing this question a bit, i have a question with research university presidents recently. i asked the question, i am a senior in high school, i got accepted to your university, all of your selection qualifications, and in my senior year, i took all of your mooc courses with your mooc professors, and i want to come in as a sophomore. can i? basically, he said, no, you have taken alien credit. we will give you credit for two semester courses, but we need to socialize you for the full four years, and you need experience. after that, i was visited by

another president from a research 1 university and said, what do you think your university will look like in 10 years as a result of mooc? he said we will probably be a three-year university and take sophomores because we will want to tack on our advanced degrees to what would be the senior year in college. making us look at what are the business models in higher education, and public universities change. we are already starting to see three-year universities. >> that sounds quite revolutionary. a quarter of the time reduced. let me tell you a story of one person who applied to college, 1967, to an ivy league university that i think you will all have heard of. i got sophomore standing.

i could have graduated in three years. courses. university still give sophomore standing. the moment i got there, i wanted to be a math major, so i started there, and then i got inspired by political philosophy and sorry, that math was -- not aswas too easy, and interesting, although i'm still fascinated, and then i went on to take four years of political science. know that these things have been around but have not been used much. four-ld use three-year, year experience if you gave to is the option. a lot of students who come do not want to graduate in three

years if they do not have to, because you learn creativity, you develop relationships. a welcomethis as development. we have a varied system of higher education. not vary the number of years it takes for, depending on what a student can do? i think people now think, it will be a three-year experience, where we have had the possibility of three-year experiences. many students in ivyofnot league's want to take it, but lost them if they do. daphne, and a 2012 interview with "the atlantic," you said about moocs, a tsunami is coming, whether you like it or not. this is a very california quote,

i have to say. she said, you can be crushed, or you can surf, and it is better to surf. here, whatsk anyone does higher education need to do in order to ride the wave, rather than be crushed by it? >> that the first attribute the quote correctly, that was john hennessy's, just adopting it. in order to serve and institution, you need to think about what is the value that it provides the many students studt about your needs to transcend your content and even just being at the diploma mill. you need to be in a position where you engage your students in a meaningful way. that can be through creative problem solving, projects, internships. there is a tremendous variety of

ways that institutions can provide remarkable value for their students. >> tom, what do we need to do? >> i think it is this hybrid model, which is to get the best out of what the on-campus experience can offer, the intimate contact with other students and professors, and at the same time, leverage for economic reasons and what it can offer an online courses, technology is making available. i think we will move in that direction. i am very excited about it. the on-linet of ventures that began, there was not a clear cost model for them, a clear profit model, sustainability. in order for us, as universities, to bend the cost curve, or even to keep it find somewe need to

way of getting revenues from moocs. isi do not think this model sustainable. i am struck at a number of my daughters -- the number of that have jobs but are not on a correct track. i am struck by the number of them. i have spoken to them who will confide in me, i have $100,000 in loans, the huge burden these people are carrying in the world, and they are not in the rear paths, but in jobs, doing any number of things.

, weuse of this inflection may be in for a long time like this where the ability to generate the income to pay these loans back -- i do not think this is going to be a quick or easy thing. i think the model of higher education is going to blow up if it cannot find -- >> you have deepened the problem because i was asking how we can sustain the online courses by getting revenue. you defeated that by saying we cannot stand -- >> i cannot say what will happen. here,have been on a high all the things that mooc's can do. you will come to your college age or son and daughter and say, would you like to go to

stanford and have that campus experience, the t-shirts, hats, network -- [indiscernible] [laughter] or would you like to basically certification. do you want a penn degree or a collection of certifications? the whole thing will cost less than $5,000. applied learning. that is the choice parents will be giving to their kids very quickly him and when you think about the disappointment -- the world does not care what you know anymore. it only cares what you can do with it. >> do you learn to do through online education, or do you learn to do more by actually

having interaction with fellow human beings -- talk about the interactions that online people have with each other. demonstrated that one can interact in very deep ways. people did these amazing projects as part of this semester-long course, and they got feedback from the different students throughout the course telling them what was wrong with their design. it is naïve at this point in atis generation to see th interaction can only be obtained in a face-to-face setting. people enjoyed chatting on the computer. there is a lot of meaningful interaction, but i do not think it is a substance to two do for an on-campus experience. you need four years of that, but can you do with three or two?

>> does everyone need the same thing? we have a distinctive higher education sector in this country, in which there is no other country that has this diverse set of institutions of hyder education as we have. -- higher education as we have. the philosophy is one size does not fit all. allow ass set of variants on how you teach. what do you see happening question mark you see the whole range. >> i think the crisis in our country around education has to do with public higher education. and frankly, penn vard will keepard fo

going. 70% of americans in higher education are in public higher education. out of higher education been devastated by the economy. there has been a 28% reduction in state support for public higher education in the last two years. and so we cannot be the emeriti -- the america we can be and what we want to be in the future unless we can find a lower cost needs of delivering -quality education. ander education, public private, has an obligation they have never had before. we have to find new innovations that will enable us to educate larger and larger numbers of people, and that is why we are such a fan of the experiment of mooc's. the more,y is that more of the most

advantaged students will take advantage of them. there is no doubt that the students that we interact with most of the time just love -- they go online, interactive they go on the playing field and they learn teamwork, they go on stage and they learn acting, and it just gets better and better. i do think we have a great higher education sector at the top, and i think many of our state universities are great, but they are getting glabled. the worry that on like education will be at the highest level what montessori school was. it was created for the slum and it became the

hottest thing for the most advantaged children to get a leg up in learning. access, butthis as are we kidding ourselves? are the rich going to get richer, so to speak? the poor, not? >> i give you one morning. every thing that happens in media will happen in education. we thought we are "the new york ."mes g >> that is why we are doing mooc's, saying, sorry, we are not going online, and "the new york times" is surviving, and it has a great online presence, and that is what we want as well. you are right.

if we were complacent, that is what would happen. i was talking about who is going to benefit -- which students are going to benefit? how are we going to develop this, taking up the challenge question mark so we are really getting access learning to the students who are not ready, just getting it? part of it is motivation. are those students going to be motivated to do this? youo go back from what said earlier, there's something about this new world which incredibly enables, and, and self-ibly requires starters, self-motivated people, and you will not change that. that is the new world. the old days where you could join the union and count on a lifelong career and be on that track, that is over. has to beareness

built into education now, from preschool right up until -- thehat is why i think human factor, having a blended learning experience is so important. if we put things on line and think that is going to truly increase access to living a productive, educative life, we are kidding ourselves. he also have to have the human beings who use those courses to help motivate you to its and get to get students -- to help motivate students. >> the power of technology to become something different than it is right now -- that was about out of vista -- altavista. when we put in a planetarium a a few years ago, i saw this

flight to the human heart, and i was thinking to myself, if only i could get that projected out of computers out of the takingi could have kids apart the human heart, putting it back together again, and they from that inspiration doing with the faculty, with the guided instruction, as all the things that daphne is talking about. keep a temperature on how quickly the technology is moving, because i feel we are talking about lended learning in the sense of using what we have. and you are in the forefront with the mooc's. the technology is moving so quickly will be changing through time while we are trying to do this. >> i would like to take the question of access and take a more global respective. 14% of students are in the

developing world. a lot of these students are extremely motivated. i just did not have access because it does not exist in their countries with sufficient capacity. i talk to people who have taught in these little villages in africa, under a tree. they do not even have a schoolhouse. they say these kids are super motivated. their homework is always done. this i think is another form of access we should not neglect when we think about the opportunity here. >> let's talk a little about the global nature of this. how does america compete globally with this amazing access now to mooc's/ ? from an american branding

point of view, let's go to that magician school. outside there is an american flag. to youhool is brought by the united states of america. it is a different way for us as a community and government to relate to the world. -- ii find when i travel spelled it arabic and -- i studied arabic and middle eastern history. neducation is the biggest foreign-policy is true. everywhere you go, everyone thinks they are behind. you go to singapore, and it is interesting -- >> and we are all right. then you come to america and johnny and susie cannot ring, but bill has a ring in his nose, a tattoo on his cheek, and just

invented three new ipod apps. i think what you are going to , a is more hyper connected grand conversions, and this provides an opportunity for our higher educational participation in a constructive way that meets up with the aspirations of 99% of people. >> i cannot help but say given we have a member of the administration with us that we must reform our immigration laws to welcome people to this country who want to contribute to it. really. [applause] because i want to get to the audience for questions. before we open the floor, to the questions of this very eminent group of participants, let me pose a eight-sky wrapup question to each of you, and i want each

of you to put yourself on the line. 2023.april that sounds like a long time from now, but it is only 10 years, last i checked. he have gathered again to talk andt educational innovation technology and online education. you, were these an incremental step in higher education, or has there been a revolution in higher education? prettyme, the answer is clear. there is going to be a revolution, and i think it is hard to see exactly where it is headed, and i think we will come

mooc's asen the being a critical step along the path towards this revolution. but i have no doubt and i that daphne would agree by 2023 we oc's not recognize the move of that day in terms of what we are seeing now. >> i see the revolution h happening on three separate fronts. first is the convergence of education, going to a human right. i think it is the transformation of the quality of education that we offer to our on-campus students in a sector that has not changed come had in 10 years we will look back at the days we were shoveling students and lecturing at them and ask how could we have done that?

the third opportunity for growth is understanding human learning as a science rather than an anecdotal signs, because the day that will go bust or insight about how people learn and how to teach them better that will give rise to --we will not recognize the mooc's 10 years from now. >> the revolution could be very positive and echo what daphne .nd brit are saying if the digital divide widens, we will have a different kind of revolution, and that keeps me up at night, because if we do not provide access to the underprepared folks, to the poor people, to the people who do not have hope across the world, then i do not think mooc's will have reached their full potential, mooc'sl not look like

in 10 years. we will have better pedagogy. the question is, are we going to really lift this nation? >> i'm glad you addressed to the winners and losers will be and that we havees, as few losers as possible, but there are always winners and losers. tom question mark >> i would , i picked up google news, and i saw that anonymous had just a can down north korea's website, basically, hacked their twitter account. >> i can't imagine who that might be. but if i were writing about it, i am writing a column about this, don't tell anybody, but that is the first cloud-source war. we just saw a battle. mooc's in a larger

context. we are seeing clout funding, innovation, we are seeing an active clout warfare, and i think the only thing that will be recognizable about this place in 2025 will be the architecture. .> maybe not even that >> not sure. >> it will be recognizable. .hat is a great segue the midst of change, and yet you are all here in irvine auditorium, which is ,ecognizable from its outset and i want to open it up to the audience for questions. there are roving mickes. the only thing you have to do is raise your hand, and i will

call on you when i see you out there. i see someone right here him at this young man right there in the second row. please stand up and introduce yourself. putting his computer aside, no doubt having been surfing the web. and i'm ais drew, sophomore, and i have taken a lot of cool classes that involve in urban engagement settings where we sit down, think about problems in the community, and work to solve it. the first question is, should local community empowerment be a goal of higher education question mark and how should we facilitate that? >> who would like to take a shot at answering? >> i will take a look at the second part. community empowerment should be

a goal of higher education. the instructors and universities are the ones that should decide how that gets none. in terms of enabling that, part of the reason why mooc's are so different, and we come back to the question, what is so different, it leverages communities and cloud sourcing in a way that online education does not. perfectt exactly a vehicle, but will evolve to become better for allowing that kind of community model in higher education. >> a quick request. yes, community empowerment is critical. it has a role in higher education. there are hundreds of colleges and universities that have courses in computer the empowerment. the question is, if you think of young people and their

aspirations and the fact that we 60% data saying that only of young people apply to only one college in the u.s., one actspect of community empowermet would be to give families the opportunity to make better choices. inand that is a huge divide this country. so that would be a normal sleep and powering to happen. happen.ering to now i can see back. i could not see any further back. i will call on the young woman in the corner. yes, you. >> i have a question >> these introduce yourself. >> i have a question for mr. friedman. you elaborate in your book the world is flat that the world is

becoming more on the same playing field as i'm goes on, with increases in technology across the world. you mentioned that everyone outside the u.s. feels they are behind. do you believe that gap will last for a substantial amount of time? do you feel the world will become more competitive in time with the u.s.? s> yes, i do, and institution will enable that by giving the best world-class education to more people and in more places. i am leery when people say it will become more competitive. that means it there is a lump of labor, we have got it, and they will have it. i think what all this will allow, first of all, what is exciting for me, we will leverage a billion more brains

to solve the biggest problems in the world, problems of the world, men and women. that is i think the most exciting thing about this. 10 years from now there will be a billion more people on the andet with the tools capabilities to solve some of the biggest problems. at the same time, what they are going to invent, god only knows. the one of the examples i gave in the book, your son or daughter goes off to college 10 years ago. , andome back from penn they said i want to be a search engine optimizer. what the hell are you talking about? you are going to be a search engine optimizer? what is search engine optimization? the whole industry came out of nowhere, because if i am in the tennis shoe business, whose tennis shoes, first when you put 10 issues in google?

it produced a multibillion dollar industry overnight. billion knows when a more people start applying their brains to the problems of the world, what new jobs and industries will emerge. there is only one thing i can tell you him and that is in this hyper connected world, every job, every middle-class job is either going to go up, out, or down faster than ever. that is, it will require more education, whatever it is, if it is going to be --or people will be able to compete for it, and it will be outsourced to history has t faster than ever. connectivity hyperkineti will do. >> ok, right here in the aisle in the red. i have been taking a lot of

courses and have been having so much fun. i resonate with that issue of -- everybody has access to. the question is people, how they come in and how they finish classes, and the idea of motivation. having learned from a lot of different systems here is one of the strongest models i learned in adherence to regimens study with jack hershey we did, and 35 years of research has 1/2ht us there are 3 significant factors for success there >> and physic motivation, support. people come in with interest and motivation. the access is totally there. the social support is the one that is the weakest. a bunch i of courses is now

trying to do together. one recently postponed itself because it was unable to do that. it was confusing. to me, that is the key, it is like discussion forums are beautiful, wonderful, but how do you do socially? >> so what is the social support -- >> and to get the risk lower? >> absolutely. >> one answer is this will be one of the things that will be most rapidly evolving, having you leverage ideas from social networks, in order to increase student engagement and social interaction. we will develop much better techniques three years from now than we have today. it comes back to the recurrent themes of blended learning, that is, having an actual editor, and to those populations that you mentioned, once that do not have as much intrinsic motivation.

they are the ones that could benefit from the most from having that blended learning experience with an instructor, there with them in the classroom, helping to engage them and overcome hurdles. but the point is the use of mooc's in traditional twodential campuses, issues are addressed. you have the social support, the credentialing. so that makes them very adaptable to traditional campuses. cane of the things mooc's do is share outcomes, figure out the socialization, are the treatments benefiting from kinds of students, students like me, like you, who is going through and what do they need question mar? the point that we are at the beginning, but there is great promise. >> it is the case, i know a lot

of people have but moaned the fact that younger generations than millennial are just connected electronically and not face-to-face, but that actually is not true. they are connected electronically, and then they are also collected face to face and they do the same simultaneously, which may seem like bad etiquette, but i who had a jewish mother who would have felt comfortable being in an operetta, going from venice where i amislands sitting there and all the italian women are talking simultaneously, and listening to one another at the same time. -- we just have to get used to it. they really learn a kind of interaction that is different from ours, but the social support is obviously necessary, but it is not exclusive of the

technology. theas to be married with technology. ok, yes. michael, right there. you did not? back there on the aisle. yes. i thought you did. >> hi. , you mean this revolution that we are in the early stages of, what kinds of services and products would you like to see created to help the revolution? boy, the list is endless. there is a tremendous opportunity to develop learning pools that are shareable and reusable, and these learning pools can go all the way from

grading for chemical -- simulations to the creation of social groups and interaction and everything in between. it is unbounded and up to your imagination. >> one thing i would add, that i agree with, and in india and met a start of company doing this. this is basically certifications, because as more and more people are going to classesa body of mooc and expertise outside traditional universities, developing independent bases of certification that you know you have a certain level of competency, whether to be a plumber, electrician, or physics teacher, it is going to be another one of these growing new industries. the company is doing this.

they are saying, that is going to go there, and there are all --they haveple developed a system for doing that, that will be very important. -- something idd think is very important is the sophistication of the learning platforms and their ability to support adaptive learning and learning analytics. that needs to be dealt in ever greater sophistication into mooc's and other online learning. >> all the more power to you. yes, over there. >> hi. mooc's, and i of love the potential that they ,ave for the self-motivated

lifelong learner. i am excited about that. i have a question about the classroom issue. provide aare used to much better quality interaction at the universities, colleges, which means that that conduct would not be the issue, everybody would learn the content, but the university would have the opportunity to better educate students, have criticaltunity for credi thinking. it has not happened. how do we make sure that we do --that we are not creating a more elite education where the people that graduate from universities will be even more competitive, and then we will have all the rest that will be better educated, but not

necessarily competitive? last question, a worthy question for our panel to answer. how do we make sure that the graduates of the elite universities are not even better equipped? >> they will be better equipped. it is important to recognize 't solve all problems all at once. if we can give creative self- motivated individuals who do not currently have access to the top universities, access to that content in the way that their creativity can then manifest, because they have such a better foundation to build on, you might not have achieved equality, but we are better where we are today, where they had very little access. >> i will add one thing, which is that it of the fundamental

truths globalization, having been in this debate, is the the topightses faster and rises at the same time. >> can i interrupt for a moment? as a moral philosopher, i would say as long as the bottom rises above standards of decency, adequacy, ability to live a good life, we should not try to keep the top down. we should be focusing on getting everybody up. that is the challenge. >> it ties into the young man's questionnaire, and the young lady's rush there, which is the crucera were a stock, i would buy it right now, this is coinciding with something that is going on with globalization that people are not saying, it has been disguised by the subprime crisis.

we have seen the emergence of a virtual middle class. i have seen it in india and mexico, and what is it >? the price of conductivity has fallen so low, like the price of education has fallen so low, -- held computer and is so low. there are people walking around middle-classth creativity, and i wrote the world is flat because what happened around that book was he got just affect -- enough connectivity that millions of mexican engineers could solve our problems. they could ed eight computers for -- they could mediate computers for y2k. solving their problems.

that floats my boat. you're seeing the emergence of a vast nettle class. think of the 23-year-old woman who was raped in india. her father was making $50 a month. enough to put her through three years of physical therapy school. she went to the mall to see the movie with her boyfriend and did not have cap fair home. she tragically took a gypsy bus and that is where the rape happened. she is the epitome of the virtual middle class, and this is going to revolutionize politics in that part of the crucera is going to meet right up with that. fasten your seatbelts, and put your trade tables into a fixed upright position, ok? >> on that note, i will ask ,veryone to thank tom, martha

daphne, brit, thank you so much. [applause] and we thank you for being a fabulously attentive and very inquisitive audience. thank you so very, very much. as this event comes to a close, education secretary arne duncan will be speaking about the use of technology in enhancing education, live today newseum new cm -- this afternoon. in 40 minutes, and a vent at the new america foundation looking at online radicalization, the grown violentome loa-

extremism. you will see the beginning of c-t discussion at 12:15 on span. video from a short time ago, when president obama left the white house for the beaches of new jersey. the president, joined by chris christie will visit families and business owners affected by the storm last fall. he will make remarks at ashbury 1:30 eastern. we will have that at www.c- span.org. the associated press writes that slipped into syria for a visit. officials said the department was aware of his crossing into syria territory monday, but further questions were referred to the senator's office. the trip was confirmed, but declined to comment.

in brussels among the european union decided to lift the arms embargo on this. opposition. oning up next, a discussion challenges for presidents during their time in office. >> we are back with ken walsh, the senior white house correspondent, author of the new "prisoners of the white house: the isolation of america?s america's presidents and the crisis of leadership." guest: i covered the white house in 1986. it has always struck me how abnormal it is. it is completely alien to our everyday lives in the united states. it always struck me how does president obama cope with this?

president obama caused the bubble. the everyday life is so different. there are so many ways that the president is isolated, security, people not bringing him the bad news many times. trying to protect him in the sense that the idolizers. it is something they have had to deal with for many years. host: given the headlines that we have seen, is this a factor in all of this, the isolation of the president? guest: i have been thinking about exactly that since those stories broke. i think what happened in some ways is that the president misjudged the intensity of the reaction. i am sure he knew there would be an intense reaction when they came out. i think he was isolated in the

sense of misjudging the intense reaction of conservative hawks on the benghazi issue. he misjudged the intention of the reaction of the media on the records issue and on the fox news monitoring of james rosen. the irs issue in particular has resonated with people who are worried about the irs anyway and wondering whether -- the president had to see there would be negative reaction but it was the intensity the reaction indicating being in the bubble. host: how does the isolation factor play out in negotiations with congress? guest: having dinner with members of congress, playing

golf. president obama can be a little aloof and does not reach out naturally beyond his inner circle. he does not have relationships with a lot of the people he is now cultivating. we have had some very difficult times in recent weeks. i think the problem is the relationship side. he is not done this consistently. as a result, it almost looks like he is just doing it for show. i think he has 4 1/2 years now without the relationships and it will be difficult to build them last. we are talking to ken walsh. we are speaking of what has happened with other presidents as well.

how will this isolation play out? guest: every time we have some type of security problem, of course the assassination of president kennedy, the security got much more intense. the assassination attempt on president reagan. the 9/11 attack. it never goes back again. it is very strict. even as someone might president obama who does try to break out of the bubble does that, how human of an interaction can you have when their are all these bodyguards everywhere? there is this atmosphere of this person has to be protected at all times. it is very intimidated to people. president obama says one and the mistakes he made was that he was stuck on the white house too much.

he is trying to get out more now. i think that is smart. it runs into the problem of the security cordoned around him and the sense of the awe of the president. people just feel this is a historic figure it no matter who was president. you get that very year toward human interactions. host: you write that obama has tried to avoid isolation. he's the first president to make use of the new technologies of social media --

guest: it is interesting. other presidents have tried to meet with their friends. president clinton gave out a fax number, old technology. we like this speech, we think you should do that. he did collect them in a little anteroom and he did respond. other presidents have tried to do this. president obama uses the new technology and finds it very valuable. it is important. host: if you are talking to your supporters, how is that making you or giving you an idea of how to relate to other americans? guest: that is a very good

point. often when they are under pressure they turn to their loyalists. that is a problem. then you do not get that wider view. sometimes they hope their friends will give them the straight talk, candid evaluations. a lot of people i talked to say before they go into the oval office to see the president they get very stern. and they say i'm going to tell him he is doing or that wrong and then they do not do that because they are intimidated by the president and by the oval office itself. so many barriers to the president getting the basic information is a real problem. host: does the bubble make the president seem out of touch or unable to govern?

guest: in some ways it is both. certainly the presidents are out of touch in several ways. they try to stay in touch. he will read 10 letters every evening, often aloud. let's follow up on this and that. one fellow will write about not getting social security checks or something. the day after he will be flooded with calls from government officials. it can cause a remarkable response to read presidents have used letters for many years. franklin roosevelt pioneered the fireside chats when you would talk to the country on the radio. he would get tens of thousands of letters and would respond to

people. some of the letters you can find online. i have a number in the book about people who knew that he had polio and his legs were paralyzed and did not know the extent of the disability. they would write very poignant letters. mother saying my child has polio and i have to carry my child around. we were inspired by your efforts to struggle against polio. they were very poignant letters. they give him that sense of people paying attention to the president and that he may be able to make a difference. host: anthony here in d.c. on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. i have always felt that president obama is relatively young in national politics, not like some of his congressional leaders who have been around for

the last 25 or 35 years. i always thought he had a decent rapport with people like brian williams and steve croft. what is your view on that? guest: that is an interesting point. you brought up brian williams and steve croft. they are not white house correspondents. he tends to be focusing on network anchors, commentators, the people who run the sunday shows, but not frontline white house reporters. and giving interviews, he tends to be choosing the bigger name people particularly on television. i do not think he has given an

interview to "the new york times" correspondents in years. is he communicating with the people who cover him and theoretically know him best? the answer is no. i do not think he has a lot of relationships with front line white house correspondents. that is a problem. it benefits in two ways. the president can put his day.i always say when you build relationships for people, you know who to trust better and who not to trust. the media is not monolithic. this is important for a president to make the distinctions.

the second thing, the president and staff can absorb in the relationships, what the media are up to. what is important to the media. an early warning system as to what stories are on the radar. the white house does not do as good a job as they might. host: you do not think it is effective? guest: i do not. host: is that the problem of the president or his staff? guest: it filters down. over the years, beginning under president clinton, they want information to be driven through their public relations staff whether then have the reporters talk to the principals who make the decisions. it used to be that you would sit down with the chief of staff or the national security adviser or others. that is much more difficult now.

everything is driven through the communication staff, the press office staff. some know the issues. some do not. host: does that lead to isolation as well of the president? guest: it leads to a distance that is not helpful. that is part of the problem. it is multifaceted. there are many aspects to this. i think they are left in this quandary of how they break out of the bubble. some presidents have done it better than others. host: the bubble is the topic here. joe, you are next in reno, independent caller. caller: one thing is a lack of managerial experience.

president obama is probably the least experienced president we have ever had. he does not understand management style. just like he was not informed about all this going on, i think if a manager or the lack of management will cause a bubble, more than anything else. what is your opinion on that? host: that is a good point. presidents without a lot of management ability or can make up for that i surrounding themselves with those that have management experience. i think there is a question about how much president obama has done that. a lot of people would say the reason we turn to governors going back through jimmy carter is that they have management experience in government.

president obama was senator for a relatively short amount of time. that is not an executive branch job. it is a legitimate criticism that he did not have experience. the country knew that and elected him. a president should make up with that by bringing talented managers around him. i am a reporter and not a pundit and so i do not take editions on policy. president obama does have this type of management. the question that arises is whether they are well serving the president by protecting him too much. you saw that particularly in some of these investigations that are going on and the internal revenue service issue where he was kept in the dark. that is not good.

host: should he be like reagan and admit his mistakes? guest: i think he should. i think the country respects that. they want that. people have an understanding that presidents make mistakes. they want him to own up to that. every president is reluctant to do that. i think the country does respect that. host: how did ronald reagan view the white house and isolation? guest: he did not need the kind of liberation by going out to dinner or social events. he was happy to be in the white house with his wife nancy and

this love affair. they loved to be with each other. he was happy to be there. some very interesting stories about that. what reagan did is he did have advisers around him who tried to keep them informed about the country. that is very important. he revived on presidential pollsters who are very important in keeping a president in touch. he did not forget his roots. he got a lot of criticism for a guy that hung out with rich people and corporate leaders throughout his adult life. he used to be a hollywood star. he always remembered that he came from a lower middle-class background. they need to always remember

that and not feel that they have risen so far above that they're not connected to it anymore. host: queensville, new york. independent caller. caller: how do you recommend in regard to piercing the white house bubble when there is such a transformation of realities for the president and the first lady that the president doesn't go have to go to the kitchen. he gets on the phone and says get me this now. when he goes to the american people he goes to the press corps. the better option is to talk to the american people with town hall meetings directly as opposed going through the press. no offense.

how do you seek to pierce the bubble? guest: you mention staying in touch with reality. a senior advisor to lyndon johnson many years ago wrote a book called "the twilight of the presidency," which i was following up on with my book. he said one of the worst problems that presidents had was keeping up with reality, and that is worse now. to me, what presidents need to do and in my concluding chapter i have prescriptions for this, it has to be a sustained effort to keep in touch as a priority. it cannot be just occasionally. news conferences are one way a president can keep in touch by seeing what is on the minds of the media, interviews. but also you mentioned town meetings. that is very important.

president obama has tried to go out and see people in their homes. he went to falls church, virginia not long ago and met with people. even that is a problem because of the notion of awe and how many people are candid with him. pollsters are important. presidents can get a decent sense of the country from polling. it can be overdone. i think president carter overdid did that with his pollster, which i talk about in the book. another thing is keeping in touch with popular culture. you mention the idea of president obama keeping in touch with sports. you see this again and again, the notion of presidents keeping in touch with sports. it is a way of doing what americans do to relax, and they get a sense of popular culture.

so he watches "sportscenter," watches games from the teams he used to pay attention to in chicago. he does pay attention to that, so that is another way. but what i am getting at is there are a lot of ways to do this it is a multifaceted approach. presidents need to really work at it. some do and some did not. president obama does try to work at it. in a recent case that we mentioned, these scandals, where perhaps he was not as intense as he should have been, but presidents have to really stay with it. that is one of the important things i hope people will draw from the book. host: everyone thought obama would be this consensus-builder. is none of that. guest: i think that president obama came into washington not really realizing how intense the polarization was and would be. he has become a polarizing figure. i think he really was hoping not to be, but i think because of the policies he has adopted a because of the stubbornness of

his opposition -- i am not saying that necessarily critically, people polling obama do believe in the opposition so i do think that is important, but i think that he has been unable to reduce much of the polarization. i think you are going to see a lot more of that after the initial phase of this charm offensive is over, which is not having much of an impact of moving his agenda through. he has to pay if it back -- he has to pivot back to a strongly partisan approach. a year from now how much it will look much different. he will be really hammering at the republicans to get them out of the control of the house, move that to the democrats. i think you will see a much more partisan approach as time goes on. host: this says maybe we should lock him in the white house, stop wasting money jetting around for these photo ops.

guest: people are divided on the photo ops. some people feel that it is important to for instance, today president obama will be in new jersey at the jersey shore with governor christie, a republican governor who has been critical of president obama. now he is taking some criticism from conservatives for being too close to obama. but he is visiting people who have been victims of storms. he was visiting the tornado area in more, oklahoma, and i think people feel that is a good thing to do -- he was visiting tornado area in moore, oklahoma. i think getting out of washington is important, and that is part of the insulation -- the president who stays in the white house too much becomes a prisoner of the white house. they have much more difficulty staying in touch than they should.

caller: yes, [indiscernible] sexual assault in the military. the commanders are setting the tone from on top. the men are taking the lead from their commander. why does the media not find that on the scandals that are underway? guest: i think you are starting to see that. i think perhaps there should have been more of that from the beginning. you are seeing sort of going back again and again to the idea of why was the president kept in the dark, which his aides say he was, on some of these scandals? shouldn't the president be taking more responsibility tom and shouldn't he be blamed for things on his watch? but i think that is happening. you may feel it should happen sooner, but i think, certainly if you look at how the

briefings are going with what i said -- with white house press secretary jay carney, a tremendous amount of outrage within the media on these, particularly the ap and james rosen fox news sort of snooping and spying on the media and of the irs issue. so i think there is an accountability factor here that the are applying to the president. i think that is happening. host: this headline on usa today -- is obama at war with journalists? they have president george w. bush's spokesman that does not agree with the obama administration often, but when it comes on the leaks of classified ad -- information, he is on the same page. here is the quote --

guest: i covered eric fleisher and i'm not surprised he made those comments. he was very much in the line of message control and so on, which i'll press secretaries tend to do. he is sort of showing solidarity with jay carney, the current white house press secretary. this is tension between the media and the white house. hadhis case, we have not this kind of aggressive, you know, militant going after leakers, in my experience, but it is also part of a wider picture of the white house perhaps not responding as quickly or as candidly to questions, driving the questions through the press operation rather than the policymakers, which we talked about earlier. any idea that if there is a bad story -- we do not expect if the story does not make the white house happy, they will come back at you as a reporter

and complain. but you solve this with bob woodward not long ago, about him being bullied or an intent to intimidate them and backing them off of a story. it is a bigger picture than just the scandal coverage. there are a lot of tensions with the press corps that might not be apparent but really exist. host: the editorial page of the wall street journal -- the administration wants to decide when reporting is legal in national security cases. they go on to say that all this is also reason to be suspicious of mr. obama cost other new media culpa, his support for media shield law. securityes national protections which reportedly would not have protected mr. rosen and fox news. any such law that lets government define who is practicing this way thus deserving a shield. narrows first amendment protections which apply to all

americans. guest: these are good points. a lot of media folks like the idea of a shield law. as a reporter i think it is a good direction to go. this particular legislation has questions, not the least of which defining who is a journalist. does the government now define what a journalist is? that covers a lot of anxiety among folks in the media. the idea of how does the legislation come out and will it have much of an effect on protecting or shielding reporters? i am not confident that that would have been very effectively. but the white house is sort of using support for the shield law as the notion that we are really on your side in the media more than we might seem to be. but i think we have to the how this legislation goes and how much is watered down, how much they white house supports it being watered down. that remains to be seen.

host: joe in the mask is, maryland, democratic caller. -- in damascus, maryland. caller: i read an article about the presidents that were intellectuals. wilson, lincoln, carter. they added obama to the list. diverse question is, how do you think think that the fact that he is an intellectual plays into this perception of aloofness? the second question has to do with the expectations and biases that people had or have with the first african-american president, i think there is a tremendous amount of pressure on him because of that. i am wondering how that plays into perceptions also. guest: being an intellectual, i mean, i have interviewed president obama a number of times now.

he is very smart and very cerebral. intellectual, i think it means two different people, he does respect the life of the mind and is interested in ideas. if you define that as being an intellectual, he certainly qualifies for that. he does like to dissect things. if you look at his policies or talk to him personally -- as a journalist, many times people are struck by the idea that there's not a lot of chit chat to begin with. he is very no-nonsense. other presidents i have talked to and people around washington, members of congress, legislators, businesspeople, lobbyists, whatever are struck by the idea that he is so no-nonsense. people might expect the president to say, well, how is your family? your daughter in the peace corps? that might be a natural sort of bonding moment or a moment to reach out. president obama does not do much of that. the last time i interviewed him, he said i have been thoroughly briefed, let's have your questions.

there was nothing more personal than that. that is his prerogative. but when you interview him or people talk to him, he doesn't seriously tried to answer your question. he does listen. he tries to explain himself. you see this in press conferences. he comes back to a question often and says, well, let me be even more clear. you like that in some and are interviewing. people like that in a president. the question is, in situ cerebral? does he have enough of an of an emotional connection with people? it remains to be seen. i think president obama is qualified as an intellectual. some people do not think that is so good, by the way. they think a president should be closer to an everyday person in his outlook, but whatever. as far as being an african american, in talking to a number of president obama haas advises, they feel that being an

african american sort of cuts both ways. some people will never get the past of the idea that there is an african-american president, they do not like this, a sort of racial part of that. toer people will be drawn president obama because he is an african-american, and of course he is a historic figure in that way. i think it does cut both ways. i have seen presidents treated very harshly. every president i have dealt with. look at jimmy carter, how harshly he was treated. bill clinton was impeached. there is another side of this that is not racial at all. it is just the polarization we have is a country and some people, his opponents, will not give the president a break or a benefit of the doubt. longhas existed for a time. host: what about the schedule that presidents keep, and does that lead to isolation? as you said, president obama is all business. if they are just getting through the day and trying to do it as efficiently as possible --

guest: if you look at the president's schedule, it is backbreaking. we do not think presidents should get colds or get the flu or get a headache. it happens to everybody. or slow down, every president gets a cold, people think the president is showing some kind of weakness or his health is bad. eventresident cancels an for one reason or another, he is being lackadaisical or he is sick. it never ends. scheduledent and his is nonstop, back-to-back meetings and talks in public events and travel. really a backbreaking schedule. i think president obama has a very, very busy schedule. he is a relatively young man as president still. veryems to handle that well. but this is part of the idea of idea of trying to break out of washington him of breaking out of that routine at the white house. every president i have covered, and this goes back even before reagan, who was the first president i covered, they just

feel desperate to get out of the white house. they fight so hard to get to the white house, and once they are there, they're desperate to get away from the place. because they want some semblance of normality. that is part of why they go on vacations away from the white house, even camp david. presidents are just so eager to get out of washington and they are so happy when they do. you can just see it in their physical appearance. they just feel liberated. part of it is the routine you are talking about. a break from that backbreaking schedule. they feel a little bit more liberated than they would in the white house. host: you write president harry truman famously called the white house the great white jail, and bill clinton referred to it as the crown jewel of the federal penitentiary system. a rock obama says one of the biggest mistakes he made during his first term was confining himself in the white house too much which a limited his understanding the real america beyond official washington. guest: just a couple of quick points. president obama -- there is an

instance where i describe that a friend of president obama came to the white house with a new hybrid car. presidents do not drive. the secret service do not like them to drive anywhere. this is one of the little things that presidents mess -- miss. so his friend said, would you like to get behind the wheel of a hybrid car? the president felt it was a great idea. so he did. he drove it up and down the highway. the secret service was up and down. he joked about it later saying that was my joy ride, up and down the driveway a couple of times. saying this is the extent to which i have some personal freedom in this job. the other thing i wanted to mention is the family. president obama tries to have dinner with his family, his wife and malia and sasha, his

daughters, at six: 30, and other presidents have done this. they love to have family time a sort of a way to get out of the bubble and get another view of things. but his daughters are young girls and are not very impressed with what he has been doing that day, daddy has been on television. when they have dinner, it is like what every dad goes through many times. i have gone through this. meanody and classes being to me. my teacher gave me a b and i should have gotten an "a." i'm not sure the girls get very many b's, they are very good students. he feels this is very refreshing. also his wife is a strong person in her own way. i talk about first ladies in the important role they play in grounding presidents. they are one of the few people around them who will say that was not such a good speech today or, you know, you need to focus more on this issue or that issue. first ladies do that where staff members often do not.

host: of course, as you know we are focusing on first ladies in a new series. here is the website for it on c- span.org. first ladies -- and flights and image. every -- if you are interested in the role they have played over the years, go to our library if you have missed them so far. you can interactively play with this part of the website as well. guest: i am sure you are talking about this in the series, that eleanor roosevelt had a very important role she played for frequent roosevelt airing the depression and world war ii. franklin roosevelt had polio so he cannot travel as much as he wanted to. eleanor served as what he called his eyes and ears. she traveled around the country to see how people reacted to his policies and so on. she became very important to franklin in doing this. they would have long dinners. she took voluminous notes.

she almost acted as a reporter or even a pollster. this was before the heyday as pollsters. it was helpful to roosevelt because they had strains in their marriage in this regularity at their discussion of issues in these dinners when she would report back on what she was observing around the country, it became very important in their relationship. thans even more important fact-finding. go would go to call mine's, down into the coal mines -- she would go to the coal mines. she would go to poor sections of the cities. this was unheard of at the time. she had an amazing reputation as somebody who was really trying to stay in touch with the country. host: in our first lady series, it is in two hearts. we will be focusing on eleanor roosevelt on monday, october 21. let's go to deborah, new york, independent. thank you for waiting.

caller: good morning. congratulations on your publication. guest: thank you. caller: as far as obama's management style and being in the so-called bubble, have you considered that for the first four years he was literally underwater, dealing with problems that were passed on from the previous administration? >> see the rest of this discussion any time on line at c-span.org. we will leave it here to go to a panel on online radicalization and homegrown violent extremism. this is live coverage on c-span just getting started. >> panel starting on your left with peter neumann from king's college london. he is also director for the

international study of radicalization. he is adjunct professor at georgetown university's school of foreign service, teaches a national security studies program there as well during the summer. author of multiple books. next to him is the founder of lone star intelligence. he has advised numerous federal and state law-enforcement organizations including the texas department of safety, national counter-terrorism center of global terrorism group. he worked for a time at dhs advisory council under secretary napolitano. att to him is a fellow here the new america foundation. she is also an attorney. she has had a great deal of with thee working muslim community as president of the safe nation collaborative. she is a fellow at the truman national security project. we are really pleased to have you here. we hear this is your first public event at tew america.

next to us is our coast -- next to me is our co-host, currently director of the washington, d.c., office of the muslim public affairs council. imam williams webb, who is currently working with the boston public society. ,inally, we have rashad hussain -- hussein. ,ith that, i will turn it over and each of the panelists will speak for a few minutes. we will then be engaged in some q&a, and then we will throw it to you. >> thank you so much, peter, and thank you for agreeing to co- host this timely and relevant

conversation. it is something that definitely impacts the american muslim community, and that is why we at the public affairs council believe that it is imperative for our community, our institutions, our leadership to engage in this very relevant and timely conversation and to be very public about it. we have taken on this topic for the past decade. we think that this topic addresses -- if it is online radicalization or telling violent extremism in general -- it is a compact -- a conversation that impact our community, and at times disproportionately, it is imperative to speak to policy makers, the american public, and american muslims themselves. as the president said last week, we put this threat into proportion and address it in a way that is both good for our national security but that also takes into consideration the

foundations of our country and on aociety, which is built constitution, on civil liberties. that is why this is very important to us. we think that this is a very public conversation needs to be had, and we are happy we have such a great turnout today and that people are so very interested in having this conversation with experts, community leaders, government officials, individuals on the forefront of dealing with this online orther it be in communities. again, we want to thank the new america foundation for co hosting this. each individual will speak for about three to five minutes, talk about their perspective and how they see this topic and how it impacts community, government, and how it impacts the relationships between various countries and societies. they will speak for about three to five minutes, and then we will open it up. i will ask an initial question from each panelist, and then we

will open it up to the audience and had a conversation with you as well. our first panelist is peter neumann. >> since i've only got five minutes, i thought i would take the title of this event, which is online radicalization: myth and reality is, and let me give you one reality and a couple of myths. -- let me begin with the reality -- it is true that the internet has profoundly changed the way people, especially in the west, have come to embrace a violent extremism. lone wolf would call attackers, people carrying out terror attacks without being linked into formal command structures of terrorist organizations. i believe it is not a coincidence we are seeing this phenomenon increase at this particular point in time, nor is it coincidence that a lot of people we would call lone

attackers have been very active on the internet. the loan will phenomenon and online radicalization are fundamentally linked -- the lone and onlineenon radicalization are fundamentally linked. he cannot look at one without examining the other. that is probably the most tracking example -- most striking example. another is that we are seeing terrorism cases pop up in places and locations where we would never expect them. the traditional assumption by academic policy makers and officials used to be that terrorism comes out of communities. ofbe the extreme margins communities, but still, it was a product of a particular physical place. you had to understand the place, the people, the organizations in that place, relationships between people in that particular place, and only that would tell you how people became radicalized, and that is no

longer always true. you now have cases of violent extremism popping up in places where there is not a physical community to speak of. why? because you can be part of an enormous, vibrant, active, exciting virtual community even when there is no physical community. the internet has made that possible. if i was the sociologists, which i'm not, but i would argue rather pompously that the internet has loosened the spatial constraints within which radicalization takes place. online radicalization really is in the process of turning upside down and number of long-held assumptions, but there are also associated.ths here's two. one, there's nothing exceptional about terrorists or violent extremist being on the internet. they are on the internet because everyone else is. in the 21st century, it would be very strange if terrorists were

the one group of the population that were not on the internet. nor is there anything fundamentally strange, surprising, for the exceptional about how terrorists are using the internet. in fact, like everyone else -- probably like everyone else in this room -- they are using the internet to disseminate ideas, promote causes, search for information, connect, and communicate with like-minded great, often across distances. what makes them different from the public, it is not how they use it. it is the purpose for which they use it. that is what makes it different. a second and very persistent myth with which i will close, is that you can get rid of violent extremism on the internet by shutting down websites. this comes up again and again. we have heard a lot of times -- in fact, in britain over the -- "let's remove that

from the internet." let me say a couple of sentences about how that is a flawed argument. new editionhen a of the magazine comes out, there's not just one place where you can download it. it is the most continuously published in a dozen places, and within minutes of it being published, readers will not only download the magazine, they will upload it in even more places, so within a couple of hours of it being published, you can download it from not just one location on the internet, not just dozens of locations on the internet, but literally, from hundreds of locations. it is very difficult if not impossible and certainly pointless to try to remove it from all these places. in my view, rather than removing stuff from the internet, we should become a lot better at

challenging that kind of message, and we should also become better at monitoring what happens online, at understanding the network that exists, how this magazine is being passed around, for example, and the key hubs in violent extremism online. while it is a big challenge, it is also an opportunity, to say that cliche. when violent extremists are on line, they reveal a lot of information about themselves. it is about time we stopped laughing about the fact that terrorists have twitter accounts but rather start understanding what they use them for. let me first thank the new america foundation and impact for the invitation. this is a great opportunity for me to participate here today. and though i was mentioned -- or my role in the homeland security with the secretary was

mentioned in the official bio, i am here speaking on behalf of myself, so nothing i say should be construed otherwise. now having gotten that out of to save some time and open up more time for q&a, i will go ahead and wholly reportd peter neumann's at the bipartisan center that came out last december on this topic. if you have not read it, i recommend you read it. the perspective that i bring on this subject is i personally had the opportunity over the past several years to do a number of these community-based partnerships with law enforcement for intervention. they span the gambit from people really wrapped

their minds around doing any kind of violence and i just kind of flirting with the idea of joining this virtual -- are just kind of flirting with the idea of joining this virtual mosque community that is interested in the same issues to honestly -- have traveled overseas to countries where the state department gives you directions on you can stay in these three hotels, and these are the people you can get in the cab with, and you sleep under armed guards. it is a pretty broad range. needs have seen is there to be a lot more capacity- building so that more people enter the struggle, so to speak. the common narrative -- i think there's ample resources across the country to travel and work with community leaders on building relationships with law enforcement agencies, but what i have seen is a struggle inside

of different departments and agencies on what role. how do you divide the labor? where do you get the funding for the pilot programs for intervention? and that kind of thing. that is where i would personally like to close in my intro comments. we have to, as a country, i think, be able to recognize the good progress we have made in community engagements all across the country, but we have also -- we need to chastise ourselves a little bit. we could have done more over the past several years. we have roughly 16 cities where you will find approximately 60% 2/3 of resources across bureau offices.

we need to concentrate on where we can train community leaders to partner to feel more comfortable at the regional and local levels. unfortunately, over the past couple of years, from here in d.c., that has not really been executed properly. the initiative at the fbi headquarters office did not produce the results that a lot of us hoped it would go. that is a very important agency because that is our lead agency that will know about the joint terrorism task force structures. other agencies like the department of homeland security have done great work in training for local and state law- enforcement to elevate their sensitivity that this is a new area that they should be more proactive in helping to build up preventative infrastructure in their town, but still, we have not really gotten, i think, enough of an architecture across

our major states across the country. i hope that was good enough. >> thank you. because of the c-span audience, we should avoid anything talking about countering violent extremism. >> will do. >> i want to begin by stating what is obvious. a lot of us work on this issue on a policy level, but that the internet is a highly successful tool that is being used by violent extremists because it very quickly, effectively, and broadly disseminates certain narrative's. someone else mentioned the word "narrative" and it is important to understand what those are. some at a propagated online i that islam and the west are not compatible. you cannot be a good american and a good muslim at the same time. america is at war with islam. we are seeing a shift in that.

we are asking western muslim communities to step up and become in gauging partners in bringing their voices online to counter these narratives. it is important to look at it more broadly because those narratives are not just being propagated by violent extremists who are muslims, but also, they are being reinforced and replicated by anti-muslim activists, too, which is an interesting phenomenon -- two extremes that are agreeing on the same narrative. what is problematic even more so, activists who want to spread the idea that is from an is on andd -- that america and western values and are compatible, is that it feelingestern muslims more isolated -- the idea that islam and american and western values are not compatible.

these folks have been more influential on policy makers, media, politicians, and we see that when, for example, a local elected official wants to about out of an event because there's pressure on him to not associate with certain individuals or groups, or we have muslim scholars who have been pressured not to appear at an event or not to make remarks. idea of suspect muslims and non-suspect muslims, so as we look at communities that engage online and counter these narratives, i would broaden the policy to say that we also need the general public, media, politicians, policy people to push back on the anti- propagated byives islamaphobes -- people do not like the term, but it is easy to use.

these discussions tend to stay here. they do not filter very well downstream. ,hen i'm sticking to a mosque they have no idea what is happening on line. they have no idea their kids can access certain kinds of videos so easily. they do not know how to filter that. is there a filter for it? probably not. local law enforcement has no idea, either. we have to identify better mechanisms to get this information and make it actionable on the ground. i'm going to end with -- do i have a minute? when we are asking western muslims specifically to counter narratives that are couched in islamic ideology by violent extremists, we have to remember there are certain kinds of voices that will have more credibility, and it will not be what you might understand as progressive or more liberal voices. they will not have the kind of to counterd -- cred

these voices. it will be conservative muslim scholars who will have the kind of credibility it takes to counter these ideologies. part of the problem is we are trapped in a space where when we conservative muslims, we think of salafists. we have to be careful about not limping these people -- lumping these people together. i think that is all i wanted to contribute. >> first of all, i want to thank the new america foundation and everyone for being here. as an imam in boston who was there in the tragedy and coming back to america after seven years overseas and dealing firsthand with some people who were impacted by some of the , my conclusion as

well as other imams is that the way to combat this is through ailding coalitions and community involvement with policy makers that is led by the muslim community and should focus on the government perspective and a local perspective. being responsible for leading this effort and then advising others to be aware of the following four points -- information needs to be based on credible resources. i was labeled on fox news as a muslim brotherhood sympathizer. my mother from oklahoma lost her mind when she heard that her baby boy had joined al qaeda on fox news. that was an attempt to undermine ne credibility i may have had here or in other circles, where as the with the muslim community -- had the muslim community defined me, it would have been very different.

there needs to be, i think, some leeway given to the larger muslim community to define who we are, who our leadership is, and who represents us. allthe word, salafi -- not salafis are radicals and jihad ists. they might be more conservative, but they are law-abiding people and wonderful community members. we need to respect their rights as well as cultural nuances, and both of those kind of get turned on their head when it comes to our community. the third is that we need to avoid a securitized relationship with the muslim community exclusively. when you tell people our relationship is based on surveillance, mapping your community, questioning imams about potential jihadists in their community, the investigation becomes confused, so the imam is part of the

investigation where they were initially trying to help. creating that relationship creates tension, especially in communities where i of the fbi of a certain country shows up at your house, you are basically over -- if the fbi of a certain country shows up at your house, you are basically over. i think that really stigmatizes the potential we should have. the last is that the counter extremas and narrative needs to be led by the muslim community, and there are three areas -- the counter extremism narrative needs to be led by the muslim community. i knew a seminary run by a bostonian imam, who wrote this after the bombing -- countering terrorism and extremism, one of the most important roles of an imam. -- fors written imams imams and even parents, websites

sure your make children were not going to. the fact the tsarnaev brothers were not able to sit down with an imam and go through their feelings was our fault. every young man that i have met -- and i have never met a woman, so let's hear it for women -- who has been influenced by extremism, every young man i have been able to sit with an offer pastoral care to has changed for the better. i have never had one who was not affected by a positive message. i have heard statements like, "i cannot believe i hated people like this." one of them opened a soup kitchen in his neighborhood and said, "this is my jihad now, to serve people." the second is that at an

institutional level, muslim communities still suffer from institutional mediocrity. we have to be honest about that. when people ask where the muslim voice is, i do not think they still prethat we are pubescent in 501 ( -- pre- (c)3 -- pre501 pubescent. those are areas i think we really would have to focus on in dealing with or countering the extremist narrative. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. thank you to the new america foundation. as part of our efforts to deepen or expand our partnership with muslim communities around the world in a wide range of areas,

one of the issues often raised is the issue of terrorist validation, including in the online space, and part of the reason that muslims around the world are concerned about this is because they are fearful of their own families, their own neighbors perhaps being recruited by terrorist networks and perhaps being killed by terrorist networks. we have talked to people around the world in muslim communities who lost families -- family members who were killed. it is an issue that comes up quite often. part of the challenge that we are facing is that extremists on are producing materials they use y creative means use youth and draw them to their work ideology, and in some cases, they have been able to do so in ways that are more emotionally appealing than wet --ms or others have done ort others haves

done. they are using images online. oftentimes, there narrative is that the disbelievers are killing your brothers and sisters around the world and it is your obligation as muslims to defend the worldwide muslim community, and they will sometimes use emotional hymns or which from the koran, they have taken out of context, and portray a situation wherein they are rewarded for taking action, including violent action. we recognize the government has a role to play by partnering with local communities on a wide range of issues. there's layers of intervention at multiple levels. there's a law enforcement role, and intelligence role, the work we are doing to work towards

defeating and dismantling terrorist groups. as the president spoke about last week, one of the most important partnerships we have is with muslim communities in the united states, who, as i said, have been at the forefront of condemning terrorism, condemning terrorist attacks and have been working themselves to address radicalization. as i said, they are concerned that terrorists are killing innocent people. they find it to be something that is totally repulsive to their religion or any religion, and they are concerned that muslims have been the largest victims. so they have been taking the lead in a couple of areas. we have talked to muslim communities who are developing materials and messaging that may address some of the same grievances that they raise, but at the end, they say the way to address these grievances is non- violence but is to address it in prescribes --lomb

that is lomb -- that islam prescribes. that message is best coming from imams and not necessarily the government. they also talk about the punishments for killing innocent people. that has been a consistent part of their messaging. in the online space, muslims are doing more to make sure their voices are being heard. they are also trying to disseminate images that show what terrorists are doing in places like iraq and pakistan where you see after friday prayer, even in ramadan, that muslims have been killed. they've been talking to former radicals, to family members of those who have been killed and working with internet service providers to make sure that when disaffected youth are online,

they want to make sure some of the materials they are producing are some of those hits that come up. we have created a partnership in working with muslim communities, and we have done a lot of things on policy level. we have ended down the war in iraq and are winding down the war in afghanistan. we have been supporting the middle east, the transitions in the middle east and north africa. we have been continuing to work toward a middle east peace. we do these things because they are the right thing to do. one of the themes i have heard a is thetraveling overseas idea that but not for many of these policy concerns, this radicalization problem would go away, and i think this is dangerous and something we really have to be careful about because, as you know, many of the terrorist attacks we have seen have been against muslims

in muslim places of worship, and the overwhelming majority of victims have been muslims themselves. we have to ask the question -- how is it that engaging in a terror attack against muslims -- have is that in any way address the foreign policy grievances that they have outlined -- how does that in any way address the foreign policy grievances that they have outlined? i do not think it goes with this way of thinking that the problem stems with the foreign policy of certain countries. we are aware that terrorists use some of those arguments to exploit youth as part of their radicalization efforts, but at the same time, we want to be clear that there is an ideological issue that goes beyond that, and that relates to the overwhelming fact that the overwhelming majority of victims from terrorist attacks have been muslims. worshipeen in places of around the world. aboutar the imams talking

wars going on in various parts of the world and even offering prayers for those places, but it is less common than you would find the same imams when they go through those issues or grievances say things like "we want to pray for muslims who are trying to use violence as a way of addressing their grievances." this is an important development, that there is further training that imams are undertaking in order to understand this. we talked to many people around the world. when you actually sit down and make clear that the motivation that a lot of these young people are using for their actions is actually totally false and their religion actually tells them that they need to promote safety and peace and well-being in a number of different ways, than many of them have actually said they are not hateful of the

west or their targets. they are actually a full of their own actions which they were engaged in. i think that will be a critical part going forward. >> peter, can i have you respond to some of the comments that have been made? >> sure. picking up on what' rashad interesting, it is one of the documents that they picked up said basically stopped attacking muslim places of worship. even in other regions of al qaeda, there is recognition that there is an acceptable behavior going on -- even in the outer reaches of al qaeda. i wanted to ask some questions as much as make observations. the concept of the lone wolf does not make any sense in this age.

when you think about the kind of classic lone wolf, it was , whoody like ted kosinski was living in a shack and did not have internet. i also wanted to endorse peter 's paper on the bipartisan issue appeared the basic theme is we cannot take down hateful speech. we have to provide alternative speech. a partnership with google and facebook and muslim community organizations to basically help people understand better how the internet actually operates so that you can put up alternative messages, alternative narrative's. a question for the panel is -- would countering violent extremism as an idea -- the

older brother tamerlan seemed to have gone beyond apart, but what kind of intervention would have zhokhar, thedshok younger brother? i was interested in your observations about the disappointing efforts of the fbi in countering violent extremism. i would like you perhaps to elaborate. conservative muslims will produce the most credible alternatives. the concrete example is a very influential clerics in saudi arabia who was one of the first clerics who basically in a very public man tried to critique not al qaeda as an idea but bin laden by name.

another interesting observation that the imam made was we need a broad-based approach. certainly the british have what they call preventing, and if there's an understanding in this country, but we do not want to over securitized the u.s. government in an approach to the problem. on the other hand, if it is just the government who is responsible, which is kind of a problem there potentially. one final observation -- the new america foundation maintains a database of every terrorist incident, both on the right-wing extremists, left-wing extremists, it eco terrorists, and people motivated by jihadi ideology, and we found that the muslim community is as likely to provide information about someone who is perhaps turning to bombs as any other community. the general consensus that the muslim community will be the

solution not only intellectual makes sense, but it is also true in that we have seen muslim communities in a number of cases dropped a dime and said there is something about something that is going on let somebody needs to pay attention to -- drop a dime and say there is something about something that is going on that somebody needs to pay attention to. >> thank you. these are all important questions. i will have each individual address the questions. one thing that i wanted to ask also talk, can you about the extent of the threat? is it an overwhelming threat? not a conversation that takes place. american muslims talk about tuition, the economy, jobs, but what is the extent of the problem so that we put it in

perspective and we are proportionate in our response? if you can both address that a little bit. >> there are two points, really. the first is responding to peter, who made a very important point, which is the vagueness of the concept of the lone wolf. it is true that only a very small minority of so-called lone wolves are actually socially isolated. typically, we are talking about people who are extremely active , but they are often very active online in online extremists communities, etc. so they are not socially isolated. be middle-muslims to aged now, -- i consider myself to be middle-aged now, but as older people, we do not get the idea that you can hang out and develop social ties to people on line, but that is what these

people do. they are hanging out in online extremist forms for 10 or 12 hours a day, and if you ask them who are their best friends, they would give you five names of people they had never met and whose real name is they actually do not know. the first step toward countering the threat is to recognize that online is also a space, and when we talk about community engagement, we also need to recognize the need to engage in that space, too. it is not only the mosque and the physical spaces. it is increasingly the online space is because the people we are concerned about consider these to be places -- it is increasingly the online spaces. in terms of the online threat, i would say that if you look at most biographies and radicalization trajectories of people who have radicalized of the past four or five years, online has played an important role. in that sense, it is important undoubtedly, but again, it is

not only about numbers. we have just seen in london with a single person can trigger. it is not about the number of people killed. i always hear that more people get drowned in bathtubs, etcetera, etcetera we have heard all these statistics. the thing about terrorism is not necessarily the number of people killed. terror youmount of have created. to the extent that even a single it, and thetrigger negative impact a single action by a single individual can have on an entire community, that is the kind of impact we have to consider. in essence, the threat is real because even a single person can cause a lot of damage to communities. agree with everything peter neumann just said. have summed it up, in

march 2010, my testimony on working with communities to disrupt her plots -- terror was a pandemic, but it is a problem, and it needs to be addressed. the more capacity building we do the more we are building resiliency in our local communities, which is, after all, the goal of homeland security, to get communities more resilient. 's answering peter bergen question about the bureau, i actually learned a lot from those folks. -- i see a few government officials in the

audience here who were involved in efforts back then by the national counter-terrorism center, to see what we can draw from the uk models and their experiences. i also flew to -- at the time, i was running a community non- profit, and i helped advise in the creation of a saudi program. i flew to my office in dallas and spend a day learning about their model. i did kind of shop around and learned about how you do these kinds of interventions. the bureau -- i have found a lot of success in engaging and building relationships with a jointeld offices, terrorism task force supervisors that have been on the job for 10, 15 years. they have kicked down doors. they have arrested bad guys. they have built up a credential, and now they are interested in

doing something strategic to the environment around them, to shrink the haystacks they have to go fine needles in, as opposed to some of the other law-enforcement techniques that were criticized earlier on the panel. those folks are interested in looking at what kind of substantive partnerships they can build to build preventative capacities in their cities. it is possible. fbiecommendation to the folks at fbi headquarters when they started looking at creating a counter-violent extremism coordination, they needed it to be not in the community relations office. they did move it out of the office of public affairs