>> regular order. i will have to ask our guests in the committee to refrain from applause and other displays of emotion or attention. we need to keep decorum in the committee. we respectfully ask that our members refrain from clapping and cheering. you may proceed. >> for anyone to suggest that these individuals' rights should be limited more so than others simply because of their political beliefs is nothing more than discrimination. there would , jews vs. christians but since his conservative versus liberals, there seems to be some question, some cloud, some lack of clarity and rather than work united in a bipartisan way to root out the very cancer that my colleague described, we are

simply trying to chop off the head of the patient, remove the acting commissioner, and say all is well. we need to get to the bottom of this and identify the cancer and this needs to be removed from this organization. i yield back. >> thank you for holding this hearing. i want to thank all of you for taking the time to testify. it is truly a tragedy you have to be here today. i want to commend you for being here today. no citizen should have to be here defending their constitutional rights. you have shared the stories about how your rights have been violated. i think you are brave. you are brave to listen to the demotion and your testimony is very real but just because you are nervous but because of the back of your mind, you probably cannot help but be a little bit angry or fearful about sticking your neck out a little bit more and being a target. the irsnot a mistake by

as some have mentioned today. this is not poor customer service as the acting commissioner testified a few weeks ago. this is abuse that was systemic. this has been going on for years. we know it is systemic because of the number of groups that were targeted. we know it is systemic because of the number of individuals, irs workers, that have been named as part of your testimony that we will be able to further into view and get information from and the larger question now is -- who helped direct this activity? lois lerner is refusing to even answer questions. if i could just ask you a question because you did testify that back in december of 2011, he made numerous and repeated calls to the irs which met -- went un returned and then he reached an agent, ron bell in

cincinnati and inquired why the application is taking so long and he said he had been waiting on guidance from his superiors. can you comment? who do you think his superiors would have been? it was not just someone down ball? >> did not indicate exactly understands i desirous calls are recorded so we could probably find out if he did specified. every time i call the irs he said these calls may be recorded solid think my conversation with mr. bell may indeed be recorded. he said we have been waiting for guidance on our superiors on your organization and similar organizations. dk time, been waiting a long it was not just putting me on hold and going to talk to someone else. some comment about

irs workers working with some of their superiors as well? >> that's correct. ms. richards told me on at least two different occasions that she would have to put me on hold in check with her superior. or superiors to answer the question i was asking her. >> estimate will help us get down to the fax so we can figure out who was directing this targeting. belson, we heard from the inspector general as part of the august. in march of 2010, is apparently when the targeting started but we were told by the acting thatssioner that all of targeting activity stopped in june of 2012. have you continued to receive any correspondence from the irs regarding the status of your application? dk get thei did not letter. i heard nothing until september

of 2012. we got the letter that with the whole list of questions. after june of 2012, you'll continue to receive information. >> right. >> the other issue we will have questions about is the whole concept of donors. we have just scratched the surface. i had a conversation with a donor in my state who has been a contributor to surge in political causes and has been fearful of stepping out and voicing his concern about some of these activities. now he is being more emboldened i think we will hear from more donors down the road as the investigation continues. think it is critical that this committee continue its investigation into what we all agree -- let's make that clear -- there are those on the panel apparently -- not the panel,

thank you panelist -- on our side of the room that have tried to divide -- some of us have tried to divided into those folks who don't really want to clean up the irs likely folks do. that is a typical propaganda understand it. i want to stress the issue of bipartisanship. i think democrats and republicans both recognize the irs flagging applications is wrong. we have a shared interest in working with you in a bipartisan way to find out what really happened. and to fix it. thee had not clarified what test should be for these organizations, it is not to organizations, it is weaker at -- that are at fault and and to change things to see if that organization qualifies for a u.s. everybody, not just a few

so we agree on that. we don't need unsubstantiated political motivated irresponsible accusations against one another. we have to look at the facts. no one has a god-given right to a tax-exempt status. none of the panelists said anything contrary to that. these exempt status as were created by congress. it is us. we have been derelict, we need to change what the laws are. for us not to change the law would mean this could happen with facility down the road. i think we need to focus on writing clear rules. it should be a test based -- it should not be a test based on how money is spent or time-base.

after this debacle, we cannot afford to be less specific. i have questions for the witnesses. chairman of the national organization for marriage? >> yes. >> why did your organization that choose to become -- you don't have to enter this but i am curious -- why did you choose not to become a 52 organization7 under the tax law? >> that is not what we do under our organization. when we get involved in political campaigns are those that support our cause, we set up political action committees as is required by the law and the issue that route. when they are pursuing educational functions, we use that through hard nonprofit educational foundation, 501 (c)(3) and for the activities the tax code sets out as comply (c) ($).

>> if you apply for 527, that means your donors have to be what? >> we do disclose the donors, that is for political activity. the non-political activity, we fought -- follow the same rules as everyone else. >> so your organization chose to be a 501 (c) ($)? that organization like all others in that category have a test to go through. in other words, when you make an in the final analysis, that is information given to the irs to determine whether you are eligible for that exemption. >> that is correct. >> some of the questions will go

to that finland we talked about before. that is, what is political and not political. that is a tough question many times, isn't it? >> the law often times is clear and there is no contention that has ever been made that our (4)vities under the501 (c) are not appropriate. >> you have every right to believe that what you believe an. >> and to have our donors confidentiality protected as law provides -- >> when the kids down to it, when you are going to express that issue and what you believe something overtly where this of our position is wrong. does it get to be a question of whether this is political or not

to tax your politics are different than my politics. what may be political to you is it not political to me. >> i don't think it is tough at all that when we engage in the very same activity that the human rights campaign engages in -- our donors are disclosed and theirs are not. it is a felony what happened to us. no such felony record against them. >> time has expired. marchandecognize mr. for 5 minutes. today that ietter would like to put in the record from the north east heron tea party. their treasurer is a gentleman that has been a cpa for 40 years and his primary practice was in helping tax-exempt organizations received their 501 (c)(3) status.

testimony,n his which i have here, that he was subjected exactly to the same scrutiny that the rest of our witnesses were. he received as, questionnaire that had 110 questions in it. unequivocal, this was the most complicated questionnaire he had ever received in response and, very quickly, ascertained that this organization was being targeted specifically because of their beliefs. they were asked questions about true the votes, there were asked questions about their affiliation with training sessions, there were asked for lists of names. all of you have received similar questions. it is happening to all of us and

now all of our district. one year ago, about this time, i wrote a letter to the acting commissioner asking if this was actually going on. he wrote a letter back and said it was not and mr. joseph kraft wrote a letter back and said this was not going on. as recently as a few weeks ago, we questioned the acting commissioner and still he said this was not going on for it when we finally pinned him down on the questions, he basically said, "well, it actually was going on but you did not ask the question the right way." basically, they had lawyered up. i would like to walk you through a little bit of what has happened since then. it has happened as a result of the fact that across the nation, each one of you and each one of

the groups in all of our districts have contacted their congressman and his committee has begun one year ago to act on this suspicion. what this committee has been subjected to is really a conspiracy of arrogance. when this committee swears in witnesses, we expect them to tell the truth. when you write a letter to the irs commissioner and he writes you a letter back and says it is not happening, you have to operate on some premise of truth. this committee has been ubjected to untrue statement sunday have been put in writing. shulman retired, and resigned

acting commissioner miller, fired then retired or resigned. . grant - resigned. stake in the fifth amendment and she is now on administrative leave and just yesterday, newly named commissioner, not yet confirmed, , it is most common answer to the committee yesterday was did not know, he was not aware, and he would have to get back to them. this committee has heard a lot of that especially from ms. lerner the last year. the question i would like to ask to each of you is -- what do you think the irs commissioner should do once this committee is successful and exposing everyone at the irs that orchestrated this policy.

? >> i think it is conjectured. i don't think it is appropriate for me to determine with the irs commissioner should do. i can only speak to what i would like to see done and that is to get to the truth. if there is criminal activity, that we have the moral courage to pursue it and not politicize it and say we just apologize. as taxpayers, if we felt to their taxes, we get criminal penalties so it is not acceptable for the irs to say i'm sorry. will have to ask everyone to answer briefly because we're out of time. >> i would like to see a huge transformation of the way taxes are done. as a person concerned in my community, if i want to start an organization and work to educate citizens and have candidates to speak, i should not need to have to worry about paying any taxes

on money collected from dues. we are not funding and political candidates. i don't want to be involved in the irs. the irs is a nightmare. i would like something done to reduce the average citizen's aggravation in having to deal with the irs. we need to get rid of the taxes that we have a go to something much simpler like a fair tax. >> in addition to the felony charges on our issue, i think you need to hold individuals responsible and with civil liability to the taxpayers whose disclosures were done so that they can pursue it even at the suburban of justice will not. >> the answer is the rule of law must be followed and if it is violated, it must be remedied either civilly or criminally or both, thank you. >> the irs needs to uniformly process their applications without offending any first

amendment rights. >> i will make it easy and ditto those sentiments by firing a few people will not fix the problem. it is a cancer inside the agency and it's got to be rooted out from the bottom up. >> thank you -- i thank all of you for being here today. thank you for representing tennessee but we know we have other groups there such as the chattanooga tea party and a rome county tea party that could give similar testimony. prior to the exposure of what has most recently happened in the irs, if we were to ask the american people about their impression of the iris, i think we would hear the words "fear, powerlessness, intimidation, maybe distrust." those were words that were used purchase was has now happened has confirmed this. it is certainly a sad day for our country where our founding

fathers set up the bill of rights to ensure us that we would not have the government that would intimidate the very citizens of the country. it is a really, really sad time that we have come to this point where we have confirmed what many people would have said prior to this. i would like to ask the staff to bring up one of the pieces of information that is in our file i this comes as a result of a question and this was question number 24 on your questionnaire were they actually ask you the names of those students you would be educating. of you give me any thought why this would be eight -- of particular interest to establish your501 (c) (4). >> it is stunning and

unbelievable and i have been thinking about this for 29 months why they would not -- want to know the names of seventh graders that i teach. basiccal philosophy, theories of economics, why would the irs wants to know the names of these students? it could before intimidation of them and their parents to discourage them from being tossed under my tutelage. >> that is very chilling, something we would not expect in the united states. we would look at communist countries if we thought about this kind of activity. one of my colleagues said that none of you were silenced. start over here, do you feel that what was occurring here in the intimidation and not giving the state is, did its silence you? no,obviously, i am here so, it didn't. i have members that came to me

and are fearful and don't want to write their name on any sign a form that we may have. i also have people email in me that they are getting audited for the first time ever and they gave during the campaign. i cannot put a number on how it has hindered our organization but it has because people have told me. >> we have not been silenced but if we did not have the visibility to the thomas more society and attorneys, we may have been. >> you have folks to help you out -- i would agree. >> but not have the aclj. silenced but there is a fist and a hand over our mouths. to educational opportunities everything from creating brochures and pamphlets on the constitution to buying such things as bookmarks that educate

people about the constitution, the has been limited to post cards and getting information. that has been constricted because we simply don't have the funds. >> thank you. >> my nature is not to be silenced by any thing but the main comment i get is thank you for standing up for us. you must be very brave. i don't think it is great, i- citizenship duties that we stand up every chance we get. >> i feel if we don't speak up now, that time may be lost. i am doing my best to speak up. without the aclj and the knowledge of the other groups, i don't know what would have happened. a time when i was ready to say forget this whole thing. it is very chilling >> time is running out.

your first amendment rights are being violated here. not it is or chilling, there is even evidence today. on of the democrats on this committee actually implied that what is the social welfare to them is social welfare but what but the social welfare to us is somehow negotiable. >> i yield back. your young is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. the issues of groups being targeted by the irs has come to light, i have continually encourage everyone i speak to to let the facts lead us to wherever it may. we don't want to draw a premature conclusion. follow the facts. the more fact we learn included in this hearing, the more concerned i get that there is an organized effort to stifle conservative political activity. given the pattern of

intimidation and obstruction we have seen from the irs, by understand why some are ready to jump to firm conclusions. perhaps what is most frustrating need so manytill answers, answers that we're not getting from some of the higher ups and from others. that represent us in our federal government. while we wait for those answers, far too many members of congress and polemicist masquerading as journalists, suddenly downplayed the gravity of the situation. we hear that time and again. then they draw conclusions of their own. these are conclusions that do not seem to jibe with the fact that we already know. we have heard that the real problem is groups applying for tax-exempt status that engage in political activity. problem is the groups. curbs of every political persuasion do this. why is it that every tea party

group that applied for 501 (c)(3) status was targeted? why did approval subsequently take longer than many of their progress of counterparts. want to know. the people want to know. why were pro-led groups targeted but not protest abortion? it has been more than suggested that just during this hearing that this is really about citizens united. (c) (4) grew an undisclosed list. why were groups filing for 501 (c)(3) like some of those here today when their as inappropriate questions like the content of their why were 501 (c)(3) applicants left in limbo if this is about the abuse of in this?(4) stay

we have heard this is about organizations gaining the system but if that is so, what was the ira's so concerned about individual donors, to these organizations. why in the months prior to a major federal action did donor information for conservative groups get illegally released by the irs? we want to know the answer to that question. why did donors to conservative candidates get targeted with threatening communications. ? all this is extremely troubling and we need more answers. sadly, those who could tell us the most would rather plead the fifth amendment and help us get to the bottom of these things. this must never, ever happen again. we need to ensure that safeguards are in place as others on both sides of the aisle have said so that our executive branch cannot nurture orgive license to a culture

a subculture of intimidation within our federal agencies. finally, we need to punish those who violated our trust. i am looking forward to that day when we do prosecute those who are responsible for acts that may well need to be prosecuted as more facts come in. you indicate you already have those facts on hand. let's of those facts are presented before a court of law in -- and the proper action is taken. we have an indiana tea party group that waited for a number of years for their application to be approved. they decided not to answer the irs inappropriate questions. they finally received a denial of their status but just a few days later, after being denied, they were approved. that is curious behavior and i want to know if any of your groups had a similar situation where you were approved days

after being denied? >> we actually were proved so they did not deny us but we acted very quickly once we have legal help, pointing out their request being illegal. it was 600 something days but were finally approved. we were never denied. >> i yield back. >> mr. kelly is recognized. >> i thank you all for being here.

i was an automobile dealer and my dad started our business in 1953 after the war. in 2009imagine my shock when all of a sudden, one of my franchises was being taken away not because they did not know how to run for did not meet the metrics but because the government made a decision that you will no longer be in business. i went through a process and got the dealership back but there is something wrong here. there's something wrong. this is truly a david vs. goliath. i think edmund burke said all that is necessary for the goodph government is for men to do nothing. you have encouraged other people throughout the country to come forward. you do not have to be afraid of this government. the fear only exist if you allow it to continue. to not let that happen to you. i traveled to the district last week and i can't tell you the

number of people that came to me and said i would like to say something but you use my name, i'm afraid it will come after me. is that what we have come to? call the decoration day but i know it is called memorial day. a guy came up to me afterwards and asked to talk to me. he said we were denied our status. i ask what happens. he said was some kind of certification. wondering if it is penn township group is maybe we are made up reports of republicans and are targeted? the american people were frozen with fear. we have gone far beyond being chilling. we have succeeded and gone way over what this government is

supposed to be able to do. when i talk to you all and see you hear and understand what it is you are going through, you don't have big budgets to work with. they can keep you on the sidelines for ever. what kind of legal fees have built up? >> i have my own legal fees because i am an attorney so i have done everything quid pro quo. aclj represents us as a non- profit but that does not mean i don't have countless other expenses. i have been funding by laws to an organization that sunday would be granted tax-exempt status. , $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 of my own money to wait for this day that i have you build up some costs? representing us for

free. >> hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees we have incurred trying to protect our donors and fight the nonsense >> costs and meeting costs and other things to run our group such as speakers' fees to get the good trainers out and good organization people and spokespeople out, yes. society isas more taken responsibility of our financial expenses. is representing us we do not have our own costs. >> is an incredible what you're going through to maintain your first amendment rights? this is not a problem that is in cincinnati. this is a problem deepen the bells of this government. -- deep in the bowels of this government. if we cannot stop this government-sponsored fear, we are coming up short on what the oath we took is that we did not take it from the republican party.

i am sick of hearing it is about republicans or democrats. this is about americans 3 we took off -- an oath of office not to defend the rights of republicans or democrats, we took an oath to defend our constitution. i applaud you for what you are doing today. do not give up on this because i think if you can install them long enough and drive the costs high enough, the cost me $60,000 to get might delicia back and i was told the system allows you to get it back. i was able to get back what the government stole from a parade isn't that a novel idea? thank you for what you're doing and stay the force and do not give up and spread the word to the rest of the american public -- do not be afraid of this government. it is only when the fear the government that we lose. this is a government that is supposed to serve the people. keep up the fight, we are with you, and we got your back. .r. >> griffin is recognized >> thank you for being here

today. it reminds me of the famous quote that a government big enough to give you everything you need is powerful enough to take everything you have. your quotef goes to earlier when you're talking about the government culture that we are dealing with here. what we have seen described here ad in a previous hearing is distance, ever-growing, almost unlimited federal government that, in many instances, means but it is unresponsive to people that live thousands of miles away. the bigger it grows, the less accountable it is. i think this is another example of that. i want to clarify couple of things. there has been a lot of facts and they're a lot

of myths as well. there is no surge in 501(c)(4) applications in 2010. i know some people get talking points and read them and they don't know what they mean. the washington post"and the others have reported but there was no surge in 501(c)(4) in 2010. it just did not happen. and we are not just talking about 501(c)(4). we are talking about 501 (c)(3). i am holding a lawsuit that relates to z street, they are trying to get organized and they are a pro-israel group. i've got the questionnaire that they were sent. the irs was just trying to get 501 (c)(3) status, not

501(c)(4). youruestion was --"does organization support the existence of the land of israel?" organization -- describe your organization's feeling toward the land of israel." it is unbelievable. that in " theing new york times," a senior state department official was talking about some of the charitable groups active in the middle east. he said that the funding for these groups is a problem because it is not helpful to the efforts we are trying to make. is there a connection? i don't know, but it is outrageous that they would ask these sorts of things of groups. you heard some other members quote the inspector general. i would point out that it was an audit to. there were no e-mails requested,

no depositions. it just scratched the surface. a lot of people did not cite the fact that it was conservative groups that were targeted. that is why you are here. it is not a debate over the law. it is the fact that some groups were given a path and some groups or not. that is what this was all about despite the fact that some people said it is about terminology for we have not given them the right terms. do you really need training to know that you don't ask americans what they are praying about it? seriously. do you really need training to know that you don't approach a group and tried to get a deal that they want protest planned parenthood? it is unbelievable. if you have to write to that type of stuff, we're just out of luck, folks. that is just common sense.

i think this is another great argument for tax reform. if you want to reduce the abuse and power of the irs, we need to reduce the complexity of the tax code that they enforce every day. i would just say in closing that i would encourage you to explore all of your options against this government. encourage you to look at 42 us 83 which allows you to sue when your rights have been violated. it is about first amendment rights and i would encourage you -- you have your own lawyer is -- when citizens are treated the way you have been, i think you should use every tool that you can to hold this government accountable. we will do our job here but this is a federal government that agency after agency after agency is out of control.

i appreciate you all being brave and being here today, thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to get back to make sure i thank everyone of you for being here. i have practiced in the business world for almost 30 years before i came here. i have only been over two years and i have been a cpa. i had to sit in front of those irs agents with clients or i had to get the letter from that individual that you will receive from the irs. , not only what i heard from your testimony and what the irish did, but they do not treat -- i sat in many, many situations of the irs and they never seemed to care. it is amazing how long the made you wait and that is appalling that this government allows this to happen. one thing that is interesting for me is when i took over a bad

business, it would have been the easiest thing in the world for me to blame the guy who appointed the manager of the company before i took it over. quite frankly, we had to fix the problem and move forward for it when i hear people say that this was a bush appointee, i always say isn't it amazing? we should be talking about how we fix the problems whoever is there. as leaders, we should be taking responsibility to make sure those problems are fixed. we had testimony two weeks ago from acting commissioner miller. seemed more interested in providing excuses. --eard him say i don't know if he would have answered your questions, i don't know what would happen to you. maybe there would have to run your application away but yet we have the acting commissioner in here two weeks ago talking about

i don't know. hearted apologies but i found it appalling and most disturbing what -- with many of his responses. do you believe these actions by the ira's to you were illegal? i know a little is a strong or but i would like to hear your thoughts. >> is absolutely illegal. when the government uses the ira's for political purposes, this is part of the articles of impeachment in the nixon administration before he resigned. it is serious and clearly illegal to single us out for disparate treatment based on our political views. >> i agree with what he said. it makesr and verse, it a felony to disclose confidential tax returns. >> i agree with everyone here. illegal, immoral, and it was

very american. . un-american. >> i think it is very illegal. >> i agree. back on my record, i was a fighter and believe in fighting for my clients so i appreciate you being here and fighting. don't ever quit and if you need anybody to stand beside you, give me a call. i yield back. >> last but not least, mr. reid. >> thank you, mr. chairman and a panelist. i just wanted to express my sincere thoughts that we stand with you. i have heard a bunch of my colleagues talk about how with certain individuals having been fired as a result of this. mr. miller sat right where you were and when i estimate question, he had not been fired. he had been allowed to retire.

with full benefits. he was drawing a paycheck paid andby the american taxpayer he tried to answer my question and that frustrates me but he would not answer. has you have lois lerner taken the fifth and is now allowed to go on vacation. that is accountability in washington, d.c. that is unacceptable to me. what i want to leave today with in yourgarrison, statement -- a lot of people in washington for get to their work for. the work for you. it is not the other way around. that is the culture of abuse of power that i see in the irs. i want to hear from you how that makes you feel, that there has not been any accountability as of yet.

what would you ask us, me specifically, as a member of this panel, to do to make you feel that justice has been served? >> think it will take a lot for the american people to ever trust the irs because of the nature. irs has always been a scary agency. like so many of you have already committed to do a full investigation, followed through on every lead, do not stop until you get to the bottom. we need to rid this cancer. do what it is a need to do and we will be here to hold you accountable to do that. >> appreciate that because if we do not do that, one of the things i'm concerned about with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle is we do not get to the bottom of this, i have listened to the testimony of each and everyone of you -- we have already heard the chilling affect what the iris has done. you talk about the factor pamphlets were not produced. you talked about donors shying

away from giving donations to your organization. that is a chilling effect and if we don't hold this community, this city accountable, where do you think it will go? do you think it will get worse or better? would you advise as to sit silently by and do what so many elected officials have done before? they might say there's a problem and need to change law. we need to enforce law that is on the books. you point out that this is a felony. a felony. that is equivalent to who? murderers are felons. robbers are felons. the law has been declared that we will hold this type of behavior accountable to the level of the seriousness of a felony. yet, what we have heard so far is it was inadvertent, it was a mistake. does that make you feel better?

the standard we will potentially live with for accountability in washington? divided and aso part to beat from the truth, it does not make me feel better at all. i want to end with your words on this -- or the individuals who have stood up and come here. you said you will not be silent and i applaud that. how many of your colleagues do you think similar to the ones that came up to me during the week when i was back home in the district that said i want to say what happened to me but don't use my name. how many do you think are out there? any of you offer any guess? just >> last week, i had one of our attendees say please take my name off the mail. i am afraid. there is a lot of language here the people going in and out of

the shadows. the citizenship ticket in this particular place with this issue should be the rule law, nothing more, nothing less. please go were the facts lead you. >> can anyone hazard a guess? tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands? to you think many americans with the busy lives they have will say that's what i want to do with my free time? >> the prospect of challenging the irs and having your last tenures of tax returns gone through with a fine tooth comb is chilling for many americans. for the first time, i bought audit defense when i filed my returns this year. this is scary and they say don't fight city hall but some point, you have to stand and fight or city hall is no longer what it is supposed to be. anotherhas expired but

member is recognized. >> i'm sorry i had to step out for quite a bit. i missed a few of the statements. let me start by saying to the witnesses, each and everyone of you, you are all victims here. many other groups, conservative and progress of alike, targeted by the irs are the victims. to say otherwise is wrong and it is not representative of the democratic party as well as the chairman noted, the outrage at what is occurring at the iris is shared by republicans and democrats alike. while i welcome the witnesses, i would like to highlight that the minority party are typically allowed to invite one witness to the cheering. we did not invite any witness to this hearing. that is not because progress of return not targeted, they were. in fact, the cig report looking

into this targeting documented that fact. i would like to submit for the record that list of dozens of progressive groups that have been inappropriately targeted alongside tea party groups by the irs. >> that objection and i would say the minority did not identify any witnesses that had been targeted by the ira's but we're certainly given that opportunity. that is correct. you may continue. >> instead of making this about ideological groups, we democrats want to make this hearing about the facts. and how we prevent this targeting from happening again. whether it be the targeting of progressive or conservative groups and everyone else in between, the members of the groups testifying today might never vote for me, if i was on their ballot. i want each and everyone of you to know that, as the congress,

we collectively represent you. as many khmer recall, i asked lois lerner about whether the irs was politically targeting groups two days before she and the irs came claim to the world and admitted the agency was in fact screening on eid -- ideological grounds. many have asked me why ask her about this matter before the public outrage to place. the reason is, no american should be targeted by the government for their personal views and want to get to the bottom of the rumors that had been circulating for some time and the irs was once again targeting certain individuals. unfortunately, this is not their first time mixing up its mission with its personal politics. 2004, under 2002- president bush, the irs went after progress of christian churches, the naacp, and environmental groups. its actions are as wrong today

as they were in 2004. i don't recall the same bipartisan outrage existing then as i believe it does today, it should have. no agency has the right to target for discriminate based on political ideology. i want to correct the record on a few matters. some of our republican colleagues have been working overtime to try and paint this as a political conspiracy by the white house. there is no evidence tying this to the white house. in fact, the ig report makes that clear. at the most recent hearing, the treasury inspector general was appointed by president bush testified that no official at the treasury department or the white house were involved or knew of anything about the target to anchor it the same inspector general under questioning said that he would have questioned the -- and investigate senior treasury department and any obama administration official if he thought they were involved. he testified under oath that

there were not involved. i would like to submit the discussion between ms. jenkins and the treasury inspector into the record. it was the same inspector general that notify republicans including republicansdarrell mustin the summer of 2012, be for the 2012 national elections. i would like to submit the treasury inspector general's letter to him and the rsc chair confirming this investigation into the irish dated july 11, 2012. without objection. >> if there was political targeting during an election year that members of congress like chairman issa have sat quietly and not brought this to the public attention? i think the chairman speaks for itself. he did nothing and said nothing because there was no whistle to blow.

the second chapter in less than a decade that the irs has been caught going robe. the when wrote in 2002, 2004 when they inappropriately targeted churches and the naacp. mr. chairman, i think the record speaks for itself -- there is no smoking gun. what happens to these americans is intolerable and ought not to have happen whether they be aggressive or conservative. , be theyns of the irs from the democratic republican side, should not be tolerated. >> time has expired. i want to thank the witnesses for coming forward today. is not an easy thing to do to sit through a congressional hearing and answer questions from a whole variety of perspectives and members. i want to tell you how impressed i am with the answers you gave and the quality of your

testimony. i'm also impressed with your moral conviction, the perseverance and courage you have shown by being year-to-date in representing so many other americans equally affected. you have helped the committee agreed deal. more importantly, you helped the american people and great deal and that help the nation a great deal and i thank you very much for that. that, this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] following >> the house ways and means hearing on the ira started to of conservative groups, the chairman talked with reporters about the committee's investigation. >> i thought the hearing was a very powerful hearing. it is very clear that this is not just a list of a few people but there is a systematic -- should i start over?

i want to say i thought was a very powerful hearing and i think it is very clear that this is not just a -- that this is a systematic approach to this whole issue. gave a voice to hundreds of americans and what they have gone through. i meant it when i said i was impressed by the quality of the testimony. it is a difficult format for the uninitiated and to hear their stories firsthand and what it meant to them and to the country was very powerful. thank you. certainly, the investigation will continue. we are just at the beginning and will need to be interviewing more witnesses, probably in an interview format. that will be the next phase as -- that we move into. it was important to hear a

person from people affected and not just have a transcript of what may have occurred to them that you hear what they have to say so there was a strong and very important testimony we will hopefully be interviewed a number of people worked at the irs during this time. what about what to have gotten from the interviews you gotten so far? >> we are just the beginning so it is not appropriate to draw conclusions yet. we have more of those to do and after that i can draw some conclusions. >> people and the cincinnati office? begun somejust interviews in the cincinnati office. we have spoken to a couple of people there. there's obviously more to need to do. >> do you think [indiscernible] i think this is much broader than that.

when we get the fact that donor information was disclosed and this involves 501 (c)(3), it is really a broader look at that. at the end, there may be legislative changes that we need to make but i think, at this point, we are trying to get around the scope of the issue. this is larger than we first thought and it is not just a couple of people in one office. this is a nationwide, systematic approach to target people who have certain political beliefs. this is what we are trying to understand how far this goes. we still don't know who initiated this and we don't know how far it goes up the chain and we are trying to find those things out. >> what about the broken tax code? >> it shows that a simpler tax code would give less discretion to the irs. one of the witnesses even said that as well. more of aould be

review of documents as opposed to these kind of complex judgment calls, i think that would be helpful. >> [inaudible] >> i certainly have that authority and i'll use it at the appropriate time. thank you everyone. [no audio] >> a number of congressional hearings are being held this week on management and operations at the irs. tomorrow, the house oversight committee will look into spending on irs employee conferences. live coverage begins at 9:30 a.m. eastern on cspan 3. this morning on c-span, the house comes in at 10:00 eastern for members' speeches, work on

homeland security department's spending starts at noon, eastern. on c-span 2, the funeral for new jersey senator frank lautenberg died this week. vice president joe biden, a former secretary of stellar clinton, along with members of his family will deliver remarks for a live coverage from the park avenue synagogue in new york city starts at 11:30 eastern. over on c-span 3, the house armed services committee begins debating changes to the 2014 defense program package. live coverage gets under way at 10:00 eastern. coming up on this morning's formergton journal," the florida congressman will weigh in on the issues facing congress and talk about his current work with next generation tv. then, ohio congressman tim ryan discusses the u.s. manufacturing industry and science and writes thatriter

city in the future will need to be healthier and safer for the human race to survive. as part of we will also take your phone call, e-mails, and tweets. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] flags in washington remained at half staff after the passing of senator frank lautenberg, democrat of new jersey, on monday. vice president joe biden and former secretary of state hillary rodham clinton will deliver eulogies at the funeral service today. live coverage 11:30 a.m. on c- span2. house and senate is back with hearings on the irs and debate on immigration reform continuing. senator marco rubio and -- citing the group of eight does not have votes in the senate yet