cable satellite corp. 2013] >> up next, and interior -- interior secretary salinger a. >> how to secure the internet. on c-span. the senate committee held a jewell.e with sally this is just under two hours. >> good morning.

senator murkowski is on her way, and also because we have votes at 10:00, we are going to try to move everything quickly this morning. i want to thank senator murkowski and senator barrasso. we want to review the programs in the department of interior. the hearing marked the first time that secretary jewell -- i like those words -- has testified before the committee since her confirmation, and we look forward your statement. i believe this hearing marks the time that the deputy secretary david hayes will appear before the committee before he leaves office later this month, and i would like to extend my appreciation to him for his long career in public service and advocacy as deputy secretary and especially his work as deputy secretary over the past 4 1/2 in his second tour of duty. i want to take a minute to

highlight a few provisions in that current budget proposal of the department. i am pleased with the administration puts proposed budget for the department of interior, $11.7 billion, there will be a 3% increase over the 2013 continued resolution. budgets are places where you have to make tough decisions, and the administration in many particulars has done a thoughtful job of putting scarce dollars in the right places. the president has made conservation of our public lands, our national parks, encouraging recreation, and support of the land and water conversation funding a high priority, and i support his commitment. outdoor recreation, as we have talked about in this committee, is major, major business and a jobs producer for our country, and studies have found americans spend $646 billion each year on outdoor recreation. that equates to more than 6 million direct american jobs. secretary jewell understands a

whole lot about this and is aware of the link between conservation jobs and economic growth. it is encouraging the administration has proposed funding for the land and water conservation fund in fiscal year 2014 and intends to see the full mandatory funding starting in 2015. i look forward to seeing legislative proposal to authorize full annual funding for this program. lwcf is an essential component in the country's effort to provide areas for people to get outside and recreate. with respect to our national parks, i've been exploring new ways to provide necessary funding for our parks. i have talked about this at length and will want to discuss it further with his secretary this morning, because clearly, with the enormous challenges presented as result of sequestration, we should look at fresh ideas creative ideas,

ideas that bring in the private sector, look to public-private partnerships to do a responsible job of addressing the needs of our parks in a fiscally challenged environment. turning to energy issues, the department plays an important role in providing resources for the country. significant strides were made during secretary salazar's tenure on the siting of projects on public land. secretary jewell, we will encourage you to continue those efforts in the area of renewable energy. i am pleased to see strong support for the department's new frontier initiative that promotes the energy development on our public lands. as the secretary knows and colleagues have talked a lot about it here, we are concerned about the management of our forests. as the length and severity of the drought and wildfire season

has increased year after year, and i am one who believes a measure of this is due to climate change and it is clear that federal forests are in poor health, making them more vulnerable to catastrophic forest fires. as we talked about just a couple of days ago in this room, i am troubled that the president's request includes a 50% reduction in hazardous fuels treatments for the department of the interior. as we discussed on tuesday, you were not here, but i am sure you have gotten the report, we are anxious to work with you and secretary vilsack, and we will make sure that the folks on the office of management and budget side are part of these discussions as well, to get a new big-picture effort to improve our policies with respect to fire budgeting. i am grateful the administration's proposal to

extend payments program is a permanent program at the full funding level in 2014. the secretary knows how strong we feel about the schools program. that appears in the forest service budget, and we also note there is an important component that is run by the bureau of land management, especially for the omc lands. i will address the short-term authorization and long-term funding for counties as well as jobs for increased forest management. we appreciate the proposed budget increase of $1.8 billion in the program to increase the volume of timber offered for sale. this is of enormous importance to oregon. we are increasing the harvest on omc lands.

i look forward to working with the administration, with colleagues on both sides of the aisle, in making it a bicameral effort with the house of representatives as well. with that i would like to recognize my colleague senator murkowski for any comments that you would like to make. i so appreciate the chance to work on these issues in a bipartisan way and welcome my colleagues. >> thank you, and welcome, madam secretary. good to see you. i want to thank you for your commitment that you have made as relates to king cove. the director of indian affairs mr. washburn will be visiting king cove in late june. the commitment that you have made to this visit in august is again one that i appreciate and i look forward to joining you on the trip. i don't want to belabor this point, but i want to look

forward to this visit to introduce you to my constituents. you know how strongly i feel, how strongly the members of the alaskan delegation feel about this road that we have been talking about, this 10-mile single-lane road that would help provide for emergency access for the residents of king cove to an all-weather airport. we thought we had reconciled that in the 2009 omnibus act. it is not done yet, but i want to work with you to see that we finally and fully resolve this fairly for the citizens of king cove. i have a number of questions to ask. we have votes that will interact, but i hope that we will have a chance to have further discussion about some of the things that i find really

timely for us right now. one that i want to bring up is the situation that we have with our legacy wells up in the national petroleum reserve. my statement has been that i think the department is presiding over an environmental disaster within the national petroleum reserve and that this has to be addressed, it has to be remedied. we have more than a hundred wells drilled by the federal government and then they walked away. they abandoned them. these legacy wells are full of contaminants that pollute the environment. the federal government has abandoned responsibly to clean up after itself. if we keep it up at this pace, it is going to be more than 100 years to clean up the mess that the federal government

participated in. as i have told you, madam secretary, in person and in recent hearings, it is categorically unacceptable. so is the administration's the use of alaska's share of future npra revenues for mediation. i met the mayor of the north slope borough, as well as others, several weeks back that you had a chance to meet as well. i have a copy of a letter from the mayor from our commissioner of natural resources, from the president of asic on the north slope, that i would like to have included as part of the record. >> if not objections -- >> thank you, mr. chairman. a related concern is that pattern of falling production on federal lands. our nation is in the midst of an historic oil and gas boom, but it is also true that production

on federal lands is in trouble. contrary to some of the statements, the rhetoric we have heard, oil production from the federal estate actually fell 5% last year after falling even more than that in 2011. natural gas production from the same federal areas is in virtual freefall, down 8% down last year and down only 2% from 2009. the fact of the matter is america's energy boom is happening in spite of federal policies that stymie our production. we should the opening new lands to development in making sure permits are approved on time and preventing regulation and litigation from locking down our lands. if anyone is looking for a place to start, i will invite you to look to alaska. i also want to mention before i conclude the tactic the department has engaged in to enforce the endangered species act. in my view it is alarming, and with decisions now to on

hundreds of species, the economic consequences could be considerable. i recognize that you have a unique background to sit before us as the secretary of the interior, your background in the oil and gas industry and the private sector and the conservation community. this is the right mix. you have promised bring stakeholders together to help solve problems, to be that convener. we need that and i welcome it. i hope you will bring that fresh perspective to move on some of these longest standing stalemates. i look forward to working with you, and i thank you being here this morning. >> here is where i think we are with the votes at 10:00. if the secretary takes 10 minutes or so, she is comfortable with that, we can have each senator who is present here get five minutes worth of questioning in before the vote. it will be tight, but if colleagues find that is

acceptable, let's give that a try. secretary jewel, welcome. >> thank you very much. i appreciate being here today. [laughter]ible] i want to begin by echoing comments of chairman wyden -- [indiscernible] and his service to the country to the department of the interior. it is helpful to me today to have him beside me, but more importantly, he has been generous with his wisdom and experience. i will miss them terribly, but he is only a phone call away. i will make sure he has a hotline to his office.

we will miss him, but i am very happy he is with me today. i want to thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee. i have learned a lot in these 7 1/2 weeks on the job. i've been to many places, in many of your states, and so i wanted to organize my thoughts. i want to start with energy on shore. on-shore production is at its highest in over a decade. it continues to increase and i am very happy to provide with statistics that are different from the comments that you just referenced in terms of oil production. i looked at the reforms that the blm has put in place. they changed them in 2010. we have had the lowest numbers of protests of sales in 10 years, so we are making progress there. the team is working hard on reducing the time for permitting and approval of new projects.

i will be facilitated through automation, and sequestration has impacted that, but we are committed to getting that done. i want to reference the hydraulic fracking rule we released just short while ago with the 30-day period. a lot of comments have been made on that rule. we changed it significantly. one of the consistent things i have heard is a request for more time, so i announced that we will give an extra 60 days on that rule. i think that will be an ample time for people to express their views on it, but we need to get on with this regulation that has been over 30 years in place and technology has moved forward. i want to say alaska is an important component of our nation's energy strategy. the plans we have for the national petroleum reserve

provide assets to more than 70% of the oil potential there. it supports infrastructure needs, but recognizes the importance of providing protection for final subsistence, habitat, which the member is familiar with. i have been out on oil rigs and platforms, visited a deepwater floating rig which turns out just a few weeks that it had a major discovery in the gulf of mexico. it is a very substantial project and something that is growing in developing. i also went to a production platform from chevron and saw how the technology has evolved and how it has stayed the same in many ways. in april we announced the proposed notice of sale for lease sale 233, which will make available acres offshore texas will be the third sale in the program.

we've also implemented key reforms that reduce the time for review of exploration and element plans for deepwater drilling in the gulf, and i will say there is now more floating deepwater rigs operating in the gulf than prior to the deepwater horizon spill. it is something close to a 25% increase. the bureau of ocean energy management has begun a programmatic environmental impact statement to support assessment of resource potential off the mid-south atlantic. we have a critical role to play in renewable energy and in fulfilling the goal of doubling renewable electricity generation by 2020 on public lands. as an overseer of those lands, i am pleased to say that since 2009 we have authorized renewable energy projects on public lands that has the potential to produce electricity for more than 4.2 million homes.

on the offshore side, the bureau of ocean energy management just issued a notice that we will have our first ever competitive lease sale off the coast of rhode island and massachusetts with another one to be held offshore in virginia this year. that is 270,000 acres that could reduce electricity to power 1.9 million homes. i want to shift gears to federal lands and reference something the chairman mentioned which is the national parks centennial. i hope that you will join me in making sure that we take this milestone seriously and engage the public more in the support of our national parks, but also broadly our public lands. besides being out in a number of national parks, i have also joined with young people in several places, one in a park in oregon and other in the gateway national recreation area, most

importantly, engaging people in conservation and building a connection to those lands that will stay with them forever. this 21st century civilian service corps is listening and learning from the civilian conservation corps, but doing it in the form of public-private partnerships, referencing the comments, and that is a great lesson of how we connect people to public lands in a way that stays with them forever, and i hope you will join me in supporting more of those kinds of programs. as the chairman mentioned, in our budget we are looking for mandatory funding of the land- water conservation fund over a two-year period. those are supporting every single county across the united states, very important program that has made a big difference on a local level, but also a big difference on a national level.

we hope you will support us there. we are committed to ensuring livable uses on our public lands so they support the resources and the opportunities important to americans. the onc lands the chairman mentioned we are committed to supporting sustained yield with blm and working with folks in california on that. one of the things that you are keenly aware of is our commitment to wildland firefighting. the 2013 season is unfortunately often a hot start. we have seen fires in california and new mexico and arizona. it is early. it looks like it could be a severe fire season. our ability to fight those fires has been impacted by sequestration, particularly our ability to reduce hazardous fuels and remediate after fires. we are working in a way that is cooperative across agencies to do the best job we can, and i visited the boise interagency fire center along with senator risch.

it is very encouraging the way people work together without regard to agency, but it is a big issue and something we would appreciate your support and help in addressing over long-term basis. i want to talk about water. water is critical to our lives, but it is under a lot of pressure from population growth and a changing climate. i want to give a nod my colleague here, david hayes, also mike connor, who are doing a great job to address these significant issues, providing leadership to communities as we address the competing demands for water, increase water availability, restore watersheds, and resolve conflicts that have been there for a long time. through water conservation, water smart is a program we call the best drop of water that we

do not need is the one we do not use, and we certainly played an important role in finding better ways to stretch existing water supplies and highlight that this practice is out there that everyone can learn from. and to sum up, i want to say that sequestration continues to be a frustration. you would never run a business the way we are required to run government with sequestration. i know budget times are tight. we're committed to being thoughtful about the money we spend, but doing it across the board in programs important to all of you is not a sensible way to run our business. we have frozen hiring, done furloughs in some cases. we have had to cut across every line item and some of those are important to all of you. so i ask for your support in getting us past this sequestration and on to a more rational budget climate. i look forward to taking your questions, and thank you very much. >> we will also call another audible.

we have had other senators come in, so we are going to have to come back for a few minutes after the vote. several colleagues have been very gracious about the possibility of keeping this going, so my hope is we will be able to get most of it done before the end of the vote at 10:15. a quick question on the onc. this is to confirm something. as you know, the oregon delegation feels strongly about this. we have 18 of these onc counties which are hurting. we are pushing hard to get the harvest up. we talked when you were in portland about you come in the blm, giving us the technical support, so we can get into these maps and find a way to address the kind of partition concept, have areas where you focus on the harvest area, where we protect the treasures. would you state publicly what you said privately that you will be there to give us and the blm

the technical support we need here over the next few weeks? >> i will be happy to work closely with you with the blm, and i know the checkerboard situation that is prevalent throughout the west is a challenge in terms of managing these resources, consolidating, and doing it in a thoughtful way is something we are committed to. the blm people will be happy to work closely with you on that. >> good. let me talk about national park funding. we have had several senators raise concerns about authorizing new national parks. given the scope of the backlog, the very significant backlog, i am one who says we ought to be working on two tracks. we're colleagues here, democrats, republicans, who want to designate new parks. we support that that. i share the view of colleagues who say we have got to come up with a fiscally responsible approach to deal with the backlog.

we have been talking to the director john jarvis about it, and my question is, i understand you all are reviewing several funding recommendations that are in the national park conservation association report. the park concessionaires have offered ideas with respect to the bipartisan policy center. can you tell us a little bit more about ways in which we could look to bring in the private sector, given the fact that we are going to try hard to build a bipartisan coalition so we can have these new parks, which you and i have talked about, they are good for our future, preserving our treasures, strengthening the economy, but i think colleagues are making legitimate points about the backlog. tell us what ideas you may be looking at from the park restoration association, the bipartisan policy center. >> this is something i am familiar with and have served on the second century commission

with senator portman, although he left us to run for elective office, as we certainly appreciate as well. there's no question that we have a significant deferred maintenance backlog. it is estimated to be over $11 billion, and that is something that we have been accumulating over many years of not treating our assets in the public lands in the way we might do them in the private sector in terms of setting aside depreciation, and that has more to do with appropriations and less to do with what the national park would like to do. they would like to maintain these facilities, but it is a challenge in budgetary times, and we need your help to put the federal government's part in the budget to supplement what we might do from the private sector. there are opportunities for private sector engagement. one of the things that the second century commission worked on was public-private

partnerships and recognizing the people love their national parks and there's an opportunity to average that love of the parks to find ways to support and recognize private donations. it is fair to say and this came from the commission as well that private philanthropy should be the margin of excellence for the park, not the margin for survival. it is critically important that we step up as a government to support these assets that are so important, and there is hardly a senator i visited with on either side of the aisle that did not have some wish or desire that related to a national park in their district or public lands in their district and support for them. we need to work with you and with the appropriators on adequate funding to begin to address the maintenance backlog, but we are very willing, and director jarvis in particular in finding ways to enhance engagement and efficacy. i went up to the washington monument with a private donor who is splitting with the

government the cost for the renovations of that facility, david rubenstein, and i appreciate his support in setting a great example for the private sector, and we are looking for more opportunities like that. >> i will give you one comment for the record and stay under time. on the klamath issue in oregon, which is a classic kind of challenge, fish, agriculture, water, energy, commissioner connor -- that the bureau of reclamations did not anticipate any supply cutoff to the project users. if you could just get back to me with a quick confirmation of if you could get back to me with a response. >> we are happy to do that. >> thank you. i am going to do for my question until my colleagues have had a chance to address and there's.

i will be coming back after the boat. i didn't want to put a statement in the record. you mentioned that oil production is at its highest level in over a decade. you noted that perhaps our commentaries have differed. i have said that oil production from the federal point felt. to just to give some of the numbers here very briefly. because i think it can be confused. millionuction was at 89 100.7s and it is gone to million barrels. you have a substantial increase. it is not the full picture. that is my case. fallve seen that follow -- from 03 22012.

what we have got his production which rose by 20 million barrels. fall from 2003 to 2012. if your numbers are different, i would be happy to share. i will defer to others so they can get their questions and. >> very good. senator? >> the moratorium after the bp -- weill, is that what had a huge thing happen. there was a moratorium after that. is it ok if i ask that? yes, senator. it to did decline in the gulf because of the safety issues

that arose and would be to upgrade our safety standards. the good news is that ei a recently reported a strong upward trend. 10 major newen discoveries. there are now more than 50 bricks drilling in the offshore. it is very strong. we expect to be back to where we were and further the there was a time that we had to increase the safety standards and changed the way we did business. that affected reduction in the offshore. >> i am sorry. i just wanted to clarify that. i feel bad to put pressure on your children or grandchildren. we can find out the whole story

there. , i want to briefly talk about an issue that is important to northern minnesota. there are 93,000 acres of truck lands that is trapped in the wilderness area. it means they cannot contribute to economic development to support schools in minnesota. the forest service is working with the states to both purchase land from the state and to exchange the rest of the land with minnesota area the superior national forest has submitted to the administration and the postal for the purchase -- a proposal for the purchase peace. i want you to give every consideration to this application. it is important. >> just to clarify.

if it is the forest service, it is in the department of agriculture. i do not know if we are involved. unless david knows otherwise. i can support to that with my colleague. >> it goes to both agencies. >> i will be happy to review that. >> i want to get into water a little bit. you mentioned water. it is critical to our economy and to our well-being. with either water for forming, healthy -- farming, healthy ecosystems. the trenton devastated so much of the country last year. drought devastated so much of the country last year. s thatd to know the rate our aquifers are sustainable.

a lot ofcy is issuing oil in areas. these activities require large amounts of water. we have even heard about competition between farmers and drilling. your takest give me on how you consider water issues when issuing a permit for energy development on public lands? and you have to be a leader in sustainable management. can you walk these considerations? >> i will do it and i'll ask my

my colleague david hayes to weigh in. on hydraulic fracturing, one of the things a we are encouraging the reuse of hydraulic fracturing fluids they can be reused. the potential of using salt water from lower depths as opposed to groundwater that you may be competing with other resources those activities are being encouraged. water is generally controlled by states. a energy companies purchase watcher, they are not purchasing from us or asking us. it is coming from state and local resources. the road we can play is encouraging -- the role with the play is encouraging reuse and monitoring appropriate use so there is not competition work. it is expensive for the energy company to buy water for these purposes as well. david, i want to turn to you to give more detail.

>> just very quickly. the water usage is a big issue for us. the president's budget follows through on the requirement for a watcher census. -- water census. we are asking $15 million to provide the data for that. in terms of permitting, what the secretary said it's very important. the states have privacy in regard to water use. the proposed fracking will that is out for further comment suggests we require a tracking of that water because when it comes up if it is not handled appropriately it can cause damage. we look forward to a further dialogue. >> let's do this. we'll have senator franken. your dedicatedr service. we are very grateful.

madame secretary, you brought up sequestration. i wanted to ask about this revenue owed to states under the mineral leasing act. the department of interior notify states to with old -- withhold over $100 million for the remainder of the fiscal year. this was before he was sworn into office. the department said this decision was recorded with the budget control act. three weeks ago a bipartisan group of us, five members of and i sent you a letter to omb. you have a copy. we asked them to confirm it you would return fiscal revenue to the states. we explained a provision that was in the federal budget law requiring the department to return withheld revenue winds

to procession took place in the mid-1980's. the same provision takes place now. of the letter. can you confirm the agency will return the money withheld to the tune of $109 million? >> thank you for the question. in your letter i understand the importance of minimal revenue to the states. we are doing our best to comply with a balanced budget and the sequester. our understanding is that we will required to withhold payments. it is designed to be damaging and indiscriminate. it is area it is an example of that. i will be for filling my obligation under the law whether that requires a repayment to the states are not as something that omb is the right

place to assess that. if we are asked, what absolutely do that. we are doing our best to comply to the law. --ks i would like to ask you >> i would like to ask you about fracturing. you said you would extend the time another 60 days. fracturing their own s blm.that exceed blm may rescind this variance or modify the conditions of approval at any time. hardly with certainty that you acknowledged during your confirmation process that is so important for the private sector. they need certainty. it is unclear on why they are adding federal regulations on of state regulations. wyoming adopting regulations about three years ago.

almost all states who have meaningful production have adopted or are in the process of adopting. wyoming has already applied it to lance. with respect, the rule is a solution that seems to be looking for a problem. difelice states that are regulating virtual are not doing -- do you believe that states that are regulating are not doing a sufficient job? >> it is highly variable between states. wyoming is sophisticated with fracturing. we applaud that. we understand the resources within the state. of a stated example that is doing an effective job. i will roll it is to supply minimal standards. that is what we are doing. the reason for the comment period and now the extension of 60 days is to provide an opportunity for people to

determine if it is problematic for them. we'll be listening. >> i appreciated. .t least a uncertainty it does not get the of certainty you talked about. i appreciate that. final question about leadership of land management. last year the director retired. a obama is yet to nominate successor. he must look to qualifications outlined and federal law. the director of the bureau should have a broad background in substantial experience in public lands management. bob had over 30 years of experience prior to blm director.to his predecessor had over 30 years of experience prior to his nomination. do you believe the director should have a broad background

in land and natural resources management at the law calls for customer -- calls for? >> i will do my best to find somebody who is qualified. i will take into account the talent that exists out blm and the ability of a person to lead the agency. that's what we would do in private practice. >> thank you. senator heinrich is next. to figure are trying out their schedules. what will do is to get as many colleagues. will be next. we'll get you even before 10:15 a.m. will break. senator franken will come back and senator murkowski will be there. we'll keep going.

senator landrieu is next. and then center risch. -- senator risch. >> thank you. thank you so much for taking when you're first trips to the gulf coast. you were off the coast of louisiana at one of our rigs. we really appreciate you reconnecting with that important industry resource. based on your experience earlier in your career, i wanted to bring up two issues and have questions. first is the request and the budget for the land and water conservation fund, there are many of us that are very interested in funding the conservation fund for many reasons. there's a double-sided that helps our park at the land acquisition. there is the stateside that helps to leverage those

conservation dollars to expand recreation opportunities. i do not legally there is a member on the committee and does not want to do that within reason. the western states have to many, too much land already purchased. i acknowledge their concern. however, my concern is in this budget we are using revenue generated off the coast of louisiana and texas when louisiana and texas and alabama and mississippi and florida are coastal areas that have so much in need. the money we are generating seems like to me which is pretty significant. i will put up a chart in a moment. it is being used to fund the land and water conservation. all the money goes elsewhere in the country. we are saving the redwoods in the north east and california in the sequoia but we are not saving the marsh where the

revenues are coming from. you have a comment about that? what are your general feelings? our states are surfing for platforms for the production. without notes -- without us there will be no way for the government, there could be no access to the offshore. .> thank you for that question as i've mentioned in my opening comments, i support full funding which has not been the case for more than one year. i appreciate the revenue generated. as i went to the gulf coast, i saw the positive impact it has on the residence of louisiana and the jobs it has created. and our office there has over

500 people. >> we appreciate the job. 500 jobs in the jobs that are created along the coast do not compensate for the loss of revenues. this is $6 billion in 2006. it is projected to be $11 billion annually coming off the coast of louisiana and texas. and yet we are struggling here for years trying to get a fair share of that money just to be kept at home along the coast that is producing these revenues. if you put up the other charts, the inland states -- i am a little jealous actually of the deal they were able to get. theyng and new mexico, keep 50% of their revenue. the western states have a deal with the federal government. all of the money that they generate, they keep 50%.

theythe course of time, have kept $61 billion. the western states to spend on anything they want. not even on conservation. this window schools thomas hospitals. this includes schools, hospitals. we generate more money than they do it in our case we are even willing at least for the state of louisiana thomas we are willing to dedicate all of that money to cultural restoration. i cannot impress upon the both of you how critical this is. i want to thank the chairman and the ranking member for their support of this general concept. how we work out the details, i do not know. i want to say to the western states, i want to the same deal you all have. i am willing to take a little

less. . am willing to be more lexical the people i represent are truly desperate. this the largest land loss in the covenant of north america. the whole continent. alaska has serious erosion issues. i do not thick they are as serious as louisiana. it is a river that supports the whole nation. it is not a stream where you paddle around and have an enjoyable time. we are putting the largest tankers down this river. i am not going to stop on this. i want to tell you are share with you that i am going to be budget very carefully. i've a question on the permit process. we cannot produce any of these revenues, not in the western states were off of our shores without a streamlined best practices process.

i appreciate the good work you are doing hearing complaints from the industry that they have to get the green light to drill. they can do it, they can do it safely. >> senator risch? >> thank you for visiting us. you would agree that the agency is prepared and they are ready and willing to take on the 2013 fire season, well-equipped and better trained. at the end of the day, it will depend on mother nature and the number of fires that they have to deal with. we appreciate your input and you appearing there. , they had a fire -- a small one. less than five miles from the facilities. .hey will be at it this summer we have had a number of conversations.

you are probably tired of hearing it. i want to get a response from you now that you've been on the job for a while and have been able to review. we have talked about the comments and suggestions that salazar made about how we should rehabilitate the population. in his letter on december 18, which outlined the department's view on how that should be done. the questions for the answers -- the questions and answers that were attached to the record. they are in sync with collaborative effort to address this issue. i think' the what your view is. forr you been on the job the pedal of time you have had, thoughts, arere

you in agreement this the best way to do what we all want to do is to preserve and protect? the same sheet of music? >> i believe we are. i've seen great collaboration inween states, indian tribes working together to preserve this habitat. a challenging issue as you know. these skulls as want to work on together. we want toe things work on together. i am committed to a collaborative effort as you described. >> i appreciate that. we know in past years all of this has been driven top-down from the federal government. we have learned that this new approach of doing it from the state of seems to work a lot better and actually gets

results. i'm delighted that you remain committed to that. >> here is where we are. portman cannot combat. senator highbridge is being grateful. senator portman if we can get you in before the break. >> thank you very much. was ays thought heinrich thoughtful guy. detail becauseo your time is so pressure. he is looking for something. [applause] thank you. , thankaulic fracking you for your testimony. it is a big deal. about 90% of the wells will be fracked.

we do have a lot to fracking. we have been doing it for about 50 years. have good regulation. we have no documented cases of contaminated water. i would raise the point that on torage it takes 307 days get permits on federal lands. this one reason i've been work with colleagues for reform. th in the world for ease of doing business with building something. it affects everybody. whether it is oil and gas or , they are facing the same thing. you can go as long to six years.

the uncertainty that is leading to the investors and being hesitant to make these kind of commitments to new capital investments. if you look at what the states are doing and our state of ohio where we do have a good record. second that you help us with this permit is built. it is not something with introduced yet. want to make sure we have not -- with had they input it is a bipartisan effort. second, i want to ask for your comment on that. if you have any comments i would appreciate that. the were will to bill we talked about -- the world war ii bill we talked about past. passed. fdr set on the day of

the invasion. if the 69th anniversary of d- day. we are looking for to move it forward. we could make some progress. we would love your help. has worked with us to make sure the bill is subject to review. your support will be terrific. it is the anniversary of d-day. yourly on national parks comments were correct. we need to do better on the partnership. i am interested in your specific examples of the washington monument. in the1 billion backlog deferred maintenance. i was at a national park over the holiday.

it is a top part in the country. on thisrious concerns very issue. my question to you with the process of the centennial, golf, do you have a plan to encourage more partnerships -- centennial give a plan to encourage more private/public partnerships? do have a centennial plan that you put together? we have not seen one yet. we are trying to encourage that. what sent a letter around our colleagues that you may have seen. anything you can tell us about the permit he and any outs -- thoughts we would appreciate. >> i will try to do this quickly.

there's a lot of work on the centennial with the national park foundation and the national park service and advisory boards to look at what we can do to the select the partnership. it will be an important part of that. people love their parts. we want to give them an easy opportunity. that is coming. should there be legislation am i will make sure you are well aware of that. we are working with the park service to facilitate that. on the permit side, there's been a lot of work that's been done by be blm to streamline the process. .here is a need for automation we have found that sequestration across the board, the offices that are more active still have to scale back their operation.

getting past that would be very helpful. there's a lot of work going on. and the 2014 budget, there's request for increased activity so it does not become a line item in the budget that can be cut. it is a variable depending on the demand. it would depend on the areas where development is going on. for missions do not go across state lines. that is how we are required to fund it. we need your help. on world war ii prayer bill. we appreciate the importance of faith in the lives americans and the sacrifices made in world war ii and are happy to continue to work with you on that bill. >> we will stand in recess until 11:00 or until the series of votes are concluded. i will be back and the senator will be back. thank you.

>> secretary jewell and mr.hayes, thank you for your patience. i'm going to ask a question i held off earlier than we have a couple other senators who have been very patient and we will get to them as quickly as we can. you mentioned interagency cooperation around your firefighting effort, something that is very timely for me right now. that coordination is especially important when it comes to post fire rehabilitation and flood prevention and the communities often downstream from department of interior lands and forests service lands. are there any additional authorities you need to ensure a seamless and coordinated response between interior

agencies like blm, bla, park service and forests service to make sure the we are meeting the challenges in a seamless way.

.

>> thank you. i think the chinese government would learn a lot by taking a few pages out of the history of south africa.

when the south african apartheid manye failed -- fell, black africans were very angry at the way they had been treated by the regime that had just been overturned. and so, what the south african government decided to do was to have a truth and reconciliation committee. one of the things that is clear when you study modern chinese history is the chinese communist party is terrified of the chinese people. they think they may be thrown out of power for not being sufficiently nationalistic. and the chinese people are terrified of the communist party and the power they have. the only way out of this dilemma of absolutely polar opposition and fear is for some sort of reconciliation committee to come into place and to begin

to examine the charges the chinese people they feel they have to lay at the base of the communist party and have the communist party be held accountable for those crimes for which they have committed. >> dr. yang? >> i just wanted to add equipped point on to your question on what happens if there's no audible human rights related intervention from president obama this weekend coming. it's two different problem spiritit conveys such a lack of seriousness of purpose to fail to take that opportunity. i cannot help but the wonder, from an administration that has said repeatedly in public that it takes all of government approach, i cannot help but wonder what was on jack lew's agenda couple weeks ago and john donelon.e

if you are going to say it will take vigorous action and then for xi jinping to feel i did not get challenged by anything, so why should i take this seriously? it shows incredible exceptionalism that the chinese communist party holds up. it gets to proceed on these matters its way. to not be challenged on that only reinforces that sense. so it is incredibly important to finally pushed back hard and clearly in a way that is audible, not just to the people sitting in this room but to a much broader audience in china which is looking for some kind of leadership, some kind of responsiveness to speak to the kinds of problems they are dealing with every day. >> thank you. [speaking through his

translator] i would like to add something. in the past, lots of american officials, including your congressional representatives, when dealing with the chinese communist government, a few of those officials were very hard like a piece of irony, and seemed to have the same opinions. iron.ce of the first 20 years after the june 4 massacre in 1989, that was a bad situation. but in the past four years also, even within the communist government, there are people talking about human rights and

universal values. so we should met president obama notices a good opportunity because there's a voice for human rights, then we could hear even more human rights talk from government. about human rights now, emphasize that, they will have a more impact to the officials within the communist leadership and will also have more impact on the people in china. >> i would like to add a few words. i believe this friday when president obama meets with hesident xi not only does

need to emphasize human rights, but it is crucial for american security to do so. us,nt to remand all of president abraham lincoln in his second inauguration speech about of justice to free the slaves had caused the severe casualty and loss during the war. he said, "con ferebee-hope, a fervently we pray that this may speedily pass away. we continueill, until all the world [indiscernible] and until every drop of blood drawn shall be paid by another draw up a sort, as was said 3000 years ago, so still it must be

said. the judgment of the lord true and righteous at." finished its first submarines and are in the process of doing five more. america has the most submarines in the world. into an armsg against america. if god would give us a blueprint on how to achieve peace. back toportant to go that in isaiah 32, tapped a 17. "the fruit of thy righteousness will be peace. its effect will be no confidence and quietness forever." the path to peace is to act justly and walk calmly with the lord our god. crucial time for president obama

to uplift and honor the tradition of faith american founders had, one nation under god, is because this is the first beginning of president xi jinping's legacy and he's eager to learn and have a good relationship with america. america must stand strong not for this country but for the walt. >> thank you. >> of want to address a widely believed myth in the international community. , have been amazed bythis believed by world leaders, policymakers, and scholars. that because china will punish those who for taking a strong stance on human rights to seek growing economic power to affect our own relations with china, the human rights issue should take a back seat.

that is a myth. there's no evidence to show it. we should ask a lot of questions. we should ask what do you think world leaders, china will do in response to a strong human rights stance? do you believe china will [indiscernible] because the country and demand better treatment of its citizens? how much will affect your economy? for example, the u.s. economy? are you willing or able to accept the outcome? how much will it affect china's economy? and what does it mean to this regime? we all know that/ economic well-being. that is the least thing that it

would try to jeopardize. will china be willing or able to accept the cost? so let us calculate how much we spend on the iraq war, which toppled dictator? if china retaliates against this country with its economic power, how much are we willing to pay to help topple china's dictatorship? how much less the taxpayers of america will pay for the spending of defense if china becomes a democracy? we should consider these questions. i have found some fear is self- imposed. this needs to break it. i have past experience to show otherwise. i just gave you a couple of examples. the 2010 nobel peace prize was awarded. the chinese government

y for the award. the awardsfter ceremony, december 14, china and norway struck an oil deal. that the title in the wall street journal. i will read the first paragraph. unit of one of china's the largest oil companies has signed a long-term oil drilling contract with norway. it demonstrates that [indiscernible] may not stop a major commercial deal. the most recent example is chen guangchen. the executive branch and regional governments took a very strong stance on this case last

year, getting them successfully to the united states. what happened afterwards? treaty.relationship nothing affect the relationship between the two countries. ofo, i went back in may 2011. spoke to a staff member dealing with trade with china salomonhe quota of imported to china. he told me it was a chinese official told them how to get .round the sanction so they have to go through hong kong to avoid the sanctions. means we have to attest to break this. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank each of you for your

testimony and highlighting this on an ongoing basis. the chairman has been very vocal for a number of years on human rights violations and how we need to continue to not only highlight that bought a dress it. i guess my concern with this hearing today is i have been in this very room hearing a number of issues over the last, whether it be child abduction, whether it be human trafficking, whether it be one child policy, a number of human rights violations, and religious freedom violations, not only in china but in a number of countries. way to makeing a that part of our negotiations or part of our foreign policy is very difficult to put in. dr. yang mentioned that it had to have an economic component. i would be interested, dr.

for you and dr. aikman to comment on that. how to be highlighted more than just of president obama comment on it this week in terms of that? it is that how do we get beyond rhetoric and make sure we let them understand that is a critical thing that we want to emphasize and have corrected? you can go first. >> one of the things, and i go back to south africa. in the pressure to get south africa to change its policy of apartheid and to abandon it, there were very strict trade regulations that american companies were willing to agree south africane government to change its policy towards black south africans. and these policies were very effective. scalek on a smaller

american states and cities and corporations could put selected pressure on parts of the chinese government that deals with foreign trade to force them to adopt a more humane human rights policy. >> dr. jamieson? -- dr. richardson? >> i will give you my top three suggestions. there are certain issues for any government that are discomforting and they desperately want to avoid having to talk about in public. you can retrofit this depending on what the government you are talking about. there are three or four more issues for the chinese government that have to be made inescapable topics of conversation at every senior level summit, regardless of whether it is about a security issue, intelligence issues, trade issue. it should be some combination of issues related to ethnic minorities, individual cases, or

certain key aspects of the rule of law. it is not difficult to figure out how to fit that into a whole of government approach. i am a proponent of the will of government approach partly because it's often the ministry of foreign affairs of bureaucrats from china are very good at deporting those conversations. try to have that conversation with a different part of the government in china. ministry of justice or security. it could be much more effective. doing that well requires that the president instructed cabinet members to do this. it creates and expectations that they will follow through on it and they will be expected to report back. there's also much to be said for the idea of setting out benchmarks on certain key issues. there should not be endless labor, for example, of dialogue that don't have built into them specific concrete steps the chinese side needs to take in order for there to be another round of dialogue. our single biggest complaint about the human rights dialogue

hashat having them at all become the deliverable in and of itself. it is simply to get one scheduled dance takes place comes the goal rather than to insist on certain kinds of changes being made. one scheduled for 41 to take place becomes the goal. >> you want to have these specific concrete steps toward reaching that benchmark need to be part of our foreign policy? >> there was some functional for human of the wto rights issues and if one party does not adhere to standards, there are consequences. we're not calling to establish a wto for human rights issues, but in order to have the next phase of discussion, you must show commitment, some willingness to change. not that the dialogue does become an endless series of diplomatic interactions in and

of themselves. >> one of the things that we look at, one of the issues we have is really one of stability, that their government right now wants to have this stable environment as there's a police free flow of information through the internet. the sanctioning of that creates more freedom of speech, which creates perhaps an unstable environment within china or the chinese government. theld that be one of benchmarks that we look at, internet freedom and the ability of free speech within -- and promoting that is part of human rights? dr. yang? >> i have for very specific suggestion for the congressional resolution. but imy ideas are wild,

have been sinking about a measure, a tax benefit. china is a huge, different provinces, although the government on different levels all have the same nature. but the violation varies from place to place. out ae each year single number of provinces where human rights records are really bad. those who are doing business, american businessmen doing business in these provinces, will not enjoy a tax benefit, whatever they are. and encouraging internal competition on human rights record. >> you are saying there's enough of a difference in human rights violations within provinces that you can set that up? >> yes, so there's a variation in and take advantage of. and we will encourage provincial leaders to compete for human

rights record. >> i see some nods from the doctor richardson and that dr. a cikman. >> yes, different state government in china competing with each other for foreign business, for them to be able to reward to those provinces that are more favorable to him and economic giving them benefits and by withholding them from the really stricter jam regmines in other provinces -- regimes in other provinces. >> they have gdp and stability. gdp is a very important thing for all local officials. >> which provinces would be most problematic when it comes to human rights? >> beijing of course is very

problematic. szechuan province is another one. [listing others] they're all participants of the tiananmen square movement, all recently sentenced. after the release, they resumed their activism and being arrested again given long prison terms. eached to ever record for province. if it is helpful for congress to introduce such a bill, i think it would help china to improve human rights very effectively. have oneairman, can i more question, please? if you could comment, each one of new, and discuss perhaps the relationship between human rights and democratic government versus the government that is there now, are they mutually exclusive?

do we have? dr. richardson? >> you have hit upon a personal pet peeve of mine. it is black letter international law that the governments don't have to be formed by the freeman periodic elections. the leadership election that just took place was a function of the 9 850 million people the right to vote, not premised on soliciting their views. the fact that the u.s. and many others failed to note that, as they regularly door around the world, is another example of chinese exceptionalism. do we know if the chinese people were allowed to vote freely tomorrow who they would choose? i think that's very hard to say. permutation,t could it be legitimately? called a legitimately? no. an?dr. aikm

>> there are many components to a free society. free elections are very important. but the rule of law is even more important. if you have a society which has innumerable elections and does not have federal law, the protection of property rights, the protection of free speech, religious expression, you can have all the elections of the world and you will not have freedom. china needs to be held to account on standards of the real flaw as much as standards of political democracy. like to make a comment. god said man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes out of the mouth of god. in the past 24 years the u.s.- china relationship has mostly been based on economics and not on the values and the word of god. i believe the leaders of china

are eager for a system that could create a just nation. the tiananmen square movement started on the eve of the depth of the reform leader. economicted for reform, political reform, and spiritual reform. only wantedly, ping economic reform. we know today looking back it did not work. the most beautiful thing is not only we know it did not work, they know it did not work. when i learned the chinese government-supported economist coming to know christ jesus, he said in a recent meeting with me 1989 ahead the tiananmen square massacre, there was extreme control.

everybody was in depression. so ping started to visit the south and started the reform. becamecountry prosperous. however by the time they reach 1997 they realized they still had a problem and the gap between rich and poor became a large and the corruption became even more vicious than ever. so he was sent out by the chinese government think tanks to america to search for what would be the right way to build up the country. he had a great conclusion. he said, "as an atheist at that time and he found god in america and he wrote his essay. "whatphrase his findings, is the biggest irritant between america and china? was it because of different buildings or skyscrapers? no because of different 12th? no.

differing in size or innovation? no. different political systems? not really. in the end, it was the difference between the quantity and presence of churches, which appear in every corner of american cities, towns, suburbs. it was a fear of god that was absent in china. the fear of client kept america's crime rate lower and relatives government corruption down. it was deterred and belief in god that kept american people prosperous and hopeful, compared to chinese economy where people there off and got rich not because of their hard work and innovation but for robbery and with power and connections. of law ando rule business activities because there's no fear of god. people with powerful they can do whatever it takes, so certain people will lie and deceive each

other to make it quick balked -- buck and there's no fear of facing god's ultimate judgment." that's a value america's founders had. china intaught in business or foreign policy it. , 19 years in years america to finally find jesus christ. country's hero suffered in prison three times, but got as miracles for his suffering. one time he was in prison. he refused food and water -- he was refused food and water 74 days. we know it is a physical miracle he survived. god enabled him to live to tell the story. the third time he was in prison, his legs or broken. but he heard scott tell him to go and at 8:00 in the morning he was able to walk through the

medical data and was able to get the freedom. he arrived to a place where the address was given to him in his dream. the brothers and sisters received him and said the lord told us you becoming here today a, we have prepared you are hiding place. within a half hour he was able to go to a safe place. only then he realized his legs were fully healed. >> thank you. i'm out of time. so i will yield back to the chairman. but thank you so much. >> you are very welcome. >> i have a question. i don't know if it has been asked. i apologize that i had to run down to a function. i want to know what we can do to facilitate more freedom of expression in china. so often i think we are naive about what to do. i think we do the wrong thing and we typically stick our foot

in their mouth or whatever. i want to know from your standpoint if you could call give a quick summary of what we should be doing, because i think it would help the chairman and myself and others. i apologize for our ignorance. we look from the outside. i read your magazine. the magazine has changed dramatically, by the way. that's where we get our information. so we don't know well-to-do. i apologize for that standpoint, but we need your feedback on that. >> well, forgive me for being the first response. it's a good question. i always think that the best thing for people to do when a country exercises aggression and denial of free speech over its own people is every time a representative of that country comes outside of his country or her country and you have a

chance to speak to that person, complain. tell them this is wrong, this is not right, this is against civilization, it is against decency, it is against truth. you claim to want to have a great civilization, how can you if you can police suppress? grow up. i think you have to be very aggressive about this. >> it's very important to bring freedom especially internet freedom such as with this resolution representative smith was talking about the online freedom act. that is really important. that is a very solid way to push for the progress for freedom in china. chinese] in

nowadays the chinese government uses the internet to make their suppression. meanwhile the chinese people also use the internet and put pressure back to the chinese government. that is the most powerful way. [speaking in chinese] theto lack of freedom on internet so therefore when the government is competing with the chinese people, the chinese people are put at a disadvantage to the government. chinese] in [woman translating] blockede lots of people by the government on the .nternet

the effect is limited. byis there not technology yahoo! and other companies sold to the chinese people? >> we know there are lots of american internet companies doing business in china. how weber, they do accept restrictions from the chinese government. therefore they have this sort of censorship that brings in a convenience for the chinese citizens. >> you can put me on your bill, mr. chairman. i appreciate that. dr. richardson, any comments on how we can improve our communications? >> the only suggestion i would

add to that, partly because i think there's been tremendous interest shown particularly by chinese internet users in everything from photographs of gary locke buying his own coffee and to the posting of tax returns of senior u.s. officials on line, the more people like you make yourself make surefor wb chats important discussions get translated into chinese. we are obviously a big fans of the language services that make it possible for people in china to listen to you. demonstrating how people in the u.s. use those mechanisms to hold our own officials to account also to communicate with people interested in talking to people like you to normalize that idea is really useful and helpful. watchalked cctv -- i cctv.

one of the few people who do. >> i support that it's very important for people to use internet and remain connected in china. the u.s. government has funding to support development of software with which chinese people inside china to get around the far wall. i've heard a very small percentage of the money being put to good use. so i don't have a number. >> its shocking are never met would waste money. i've never heard of that before. >> we will try to push for that and -- congress should continue for more funding on that and development of the software. officials andse scholars, whether they have opinions or views in line with the government or not, they can express freely here, they published their papers here,

bacon run a web site and everything here without censorship. but when the u.s. officials travel in china, usually their speeches are censored. .r. chairman, [indiscernible] complete reciprocal is impossible, but we have to promote these kind of ideas. when the delegation of officials and scholars from this country travel in china, their communications should not be censored. so that is the reciprocity idea we should promote. >> yes. i am really grateful. you're willing to stand up for those of voiceless people, for the people who cannot act on their own behalf. so thank you. it reminds me of a story, what can we do to make things

effective for leaders in china to receive the message we want them to receive? colossians excess whatever you do, do it in the name of the lord jesus, giving thanks to god the father through him. , a believer in defending the prosecutors in china told me it a story, a congressional leader, that 20 called on behalf of the church believers who had been prosecuted in china, the chinese internalaid it is our affairs, it's not your problem. as congressional leader said it is my problem, they are my brothers and sisters in christ jesus. there was such a strong silence from the chinese leader's side. i believe that carries such a strong message and value. i also heard a story when recently a senior chinese the was visited by

people who believed in and jesus and they prayed and the chinese leader in turn was in tears. he said i have never heard people prefer me and my family in such a way and never saw anybody. even for the people who make the food. they are truly listening to our beliefs. people really notice. for have been advocating the south african model for china. forgiveness and truth and reconciliation. i started about that part of history what caused that. 's booked desmond tutu about reconciliation, from cover to cover. and president nelson mandela. he came out of prison after 40 years, his first words were i forgive them. of jesusad a spirit christ because he forgives us, therefore we're all equal sinners, we can forgive each other.

it's only on that basis we can have true reconciliation. statement4, i made a and sent out to the chinese newspaper in chinese community and said i forgive them. i forgive the leaders who ordered the massacre. today i will say that again. i forgive them. >> go ahead. dearlynow that also god loves children and god is here waiting for them to know. >> i know home churches are growing very quickly. >> 125 min people. >> a lot of them, the leaders are very wealthy who are christians. [indiscernible] the only word i know in chinese is thank you [speaking in chinese], so thank you. i appreciate all your efforts. >> thank you. >> mr. weber? >> that's not the only word you

know in chinese, mr. stockman. will direct this question to the panel. will the emergence of the free- market foster less government oppression and more human rights? why don't we start down here, dr. richardson? >> mayor couple decades into the reform era. several people have noted. >> we've seen chinese leaders get wealthy? >> we've seen extraordinary economic growth. in indirect ways it has given some people in china more control over their daily lives. although i think that mostly means in a practical sense that people can live outside certain kinds of state constraints. >> obviously there's different levels of it because you are talking about provinces but that

humanhave blessed -- less rights violations and you want to hit them -- american companies with a different tax code, is that what i understand? >> i would add that i think alongside that economic development, that alone has brought with it some fairly uncorrected serious human-rights abuses in addition to being a model imposed on certain parts of the country who have no ability to benefit from it and no ability to opt out of it. rising gdp is not necessarily indicative of a greater compliance with the rule of law. several people have mentioned. they pointed out earlier the greatness of society depended on truth, honesty, and modesty. i kept waiting for campus a truth, justice, and the american way. [laughter] but the truth of the matter is

in china those officials define their own truth. it said they believe in scientific truth. as what she has described the ultimate truth, the moral truth of the universe, if china does not believe in moral truth and they get to define their own troops, then i i would submit to you that of the two, a loyal troops, that of the lord jesus, is tantamount in having us we having a sweeping revival in china and then we usher in human rights, usher in the sanctity of life. let me ask you all question. of these five institutions, let's take the christian church, let's take the free market, but i just talked about, a free- market in china, about world opinion, let's talk about u.s. policy, that would be a us, and

let's talk about the chinese people, of those five, what is ?our opinion which is the most able to influence the chinese government's? -- governments? the christian church, the free- market, world opinion, u.s. policy, or chinese people? which is the most influential? >> mr. congressman, if i may respond. i think history has shown, among its other things, that capitalism is completely compatible with authoritarian government. nazis managed to have a very authoritarian government and a very successful capitalist system. so capitalism was thought for a long time today the catalyst --

to be the catalyst for real freedom, but it did not prove so in china. i think you have to change the thinking, the spiritual values of the civilization that contains athem. never become al great power and respected power unless it changes its moral values and accept freedom and reconciliation and the values of truth and justice. i did nothing will happen unless those things take place. >> dr. yang? market, generally speaking, helps reduce government repression. the problem in china is there's no free market there. there are tremendous government interventions in the market, in the economy. if you have a friend here doing

business in china, asked him to tell you the truth of what they are doing there. the first order of business they have to do is to try to find a relationship in the government. so there's no free market. there's a big gap between the poor and the wealthy. that's not the market. >> to create that kind of free market where the gap gets closed -- >> the 5 things you just pointed ,ut all help to influence china the chinese government, but ultimately the most important factor is the chinese people themselves. >> so how do we get them more involved in taking this fight to the government leaders? today ise are doing one of the most important things help to give ald

voice to those and cannot have a voice in china and try to apply pressure to the chinese government so that we will give that people's voice can grow in china. ultimately, the most important thing is the chinese people themselves. they have to grow democracy forces. mustemocratic forces become transformed into a viable opposition. for all this, without international support, our work will become. much become. >> is that happening? >> it is happening. >> so use a world opinion? is opinion? >> of course. greg bafta's and up and say we support tampa. >> of course. china is open.

9 china cannot close itsw doorsclosee get all information from the outside world. -- china cannot close its doors. information from the outside world. think we don't know how democracy works or what democracy is good for the people of china. sometimes it is simply because they do know very well how democracy works. they resist democratization. opinion is very important. all the five factors are important. ultimately, we need people to grow and we need a group of leaders who can transform -- can evangelize those people? >> yes.

>> thank you so much for your faith and words of encouragement and a fellowship you are sharing with us. i want to hear more u.s. leaders like yourself lift up the name of jesus. things that influenced the leaders of china. i could not list all of them. my general impression, all of impression are idols. this only one truth and that is jesus. god said in revelation a triumph over him. greg by the word of their mouths and their testimony. >> amen. we get to share our personal testimonies, how god's grace saved us. because the leaders of china are just like us. they are created in god's image. they have a heart searching for troops. in 1989 broke because

before the massacre happened i went to search for when shopping -- for ping. >> has deterred grown in china? >> yes. >> said 125 million? >> yes. we stayed until 6:00 a.m. at tiananmen square. i stayed there because i heard and therica had come massacre took place. i heard that it was not true and i was devastated to hear that america had not come. rejoicing that god had come to china. >> his kingdom is not of this world. >> amen. >> [speaking in chinese] free markets you could

get more human rights and democracy, that was just an americande up by big companies who want to do business in china. they do not want to pay a price for human rights. >> does usually have this problem of speaking his mind? go ahead. >> [speaking in chinese] [indiscernible] to business to totally rely on people an in pal wood in this country would never in thisthe people country would never have free- market rules.

speaking in chinese] more than 10 years ago when we had this debate on permanent normal trade relationship we talked about it and even restarted trade and what we ould have is just a too big capitalist class in china but not a free market. [speaking in chinese] [woman translating] get a free market and a sizable middle class when there's a rule of law and there fairee speech as well as

treatment. chinese] in so let me emphasize what i just mentioned earlier. to have true freedom in china, you must have free speech by the chinese people. sizabledy have a network on the internet. they could put a lot of pressure over the chinese government. >> let me say this and i appreciate your indulgence, mr. chairman. said the chinese government fears being thrown out of power because they don't display enough nationalism or something to that effect. >> yes.

>> and i understand the importance of the internet and the free market is used by god to further people's countries. he lists some up and puts others down. >> i agree. you and fire on the same page. >> thank you. what we i want to say is need to be able to support the chinese people are going to have to rise up and make this their aim and goal and make it known to the chinese government that they will not stand still for it. we will have to do our part, whether it is with trade sanctions or encouraging of vandalism or sending missionaries over there. sometimes i think they need to send missionaries over here. and we also need to be sure that we can encourage the internet so that the word gets out more and more.

but i think we need a marriage or partnership of policy, world opinion, internet, and the chinese people taking a lead and make their government understand this will no longer be tolerated. is that fair? >> if i could comment. i think one thing the chinese people don't want to see is a violent upheaval in their own society. >> when you say chinese people, government or all chinese people per? >> all chinese, i think. i visited china in 1993. i talked to many chinese intellectuals, some of whom had studied in the u.s. and europe. i said to them, don't you want to have political democracy in your country? quickly, yes but not because the explosion of anarchy that would emerge from people of self no experience

control and a political environment, no idea that you have to restrain yourself and allowing other people to have their opinions, without those constraints among the people, i don't think you are ever going to have a safe democracy in china. >> was it franklin was said that he who forsakes security for liberty will soon have? >> that's correct. >> lots of people do not realize the chinese people had been divided into three major classes. the super rich people, they're less than 1%. of course we don't want to see any change in china because they really enjoy their life. -- they don't want to see any change.

chinese] in woman translating] the 10% in the middle class, their life is reasonable and they're not happy with the communists, but they don't want to send china into chaos, for own sake. however the majority of chinese who are very poor who cannot afford to send their children to andol or have medical care whatever, they want to see china in chaos because of less opportunity to have a new government to try.

those three clauses are totally different. they do not have a common language. [man speaking in chinese and woman translating into english] , when foreign journalists or four people went to china, the chinese government would carefully arranged for you to meet with the first-class and second- class. and the third class only could speak on the internet only. and the reason for the chinese government even within the government people say we have to reform it is because they knew if they don't perform, people will revolt and topple the

government. friend, are i know a good personal trust to know china better, but when you are in china at least listen to the taxi driver to see what they talk about. >> public opinion. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you. let me thank our very distinguished panelists for your lifelong leadership on behalf of chinese human rights and rule of law and basic freedoms. i would say it to a doctor aikman, and know you talked about is swift transfer of power, i know that all chinese want immediate freedom from religious persecution,

which would include christians, the muslims and other groups tortured and treated with impunity in china today. forcedte freedom from abortion, immediate freedom from censorship and surveillance. 39veillance of people was million nationwide in your testimony. freedom from the exploitation of labor where only a few benefit from the labor of the many. and so many other freedoms that need to be immediate and durable and sustainable. so i want to thank each and everyone of you for your testimony. our hope collectively is that president obama will be very hisst and very clear in representations on behalf of human rights, particularly some of those who have been long , or theg in the laogai jails, in china. he has a huge opportunity.

president xi is brand new and will be listening. once he hears on to b -- ought to be that human rights are indivisible and there every person's birthright. it belongs to them. so thank you for your testimony and this hearing is adjourned. h[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] professor robin nagle. then, 7:00, washington journal. then a discussion on how to secure the internet around the world.

a discussion on the proposed immigration bill and whether congressional bipartisanship will be able to get it passed in the senate and house predicts new america foundation event is alive today at 12:15 eastern on c-span3. >> robin nagle, why did you want to drive a garbage truck? >> i was curious about sanitation in new york. also around the world, but i was here. after some time hanging out with sanitation workers,

getting interviews, classic anthropological interviews, i realized i could not understand to be depths i wanted unless i was qualified to do the job. i was hired. the first time i drove the truck by myself, i have to say, it was terrifying and exhilarating. i was one of the most powerful vehicles on the road. not the biggest truck. but i was the one no one wanted to be stuck behind or next to. >> where did this interest come from? >> i was 11 or 10 as my dad took me camping in the adirondack mountains. this is when the questions of environmental awareness and integrity were really part of the national conversation