do we have a sense of what the government is going to do with respect to ngos and society leaders? is there more that we should be doing or could be doing to support those civil society leaders? >> the short answer is we do not know yet. this is one of those areas that would be the best indication about creating a genuine political process that changes the future of egypt that creates and egypt that is representative, inclusive, and tolerant. the key will be building civil society institutions. the willingness to embrace and rewrite the laws and pardon those who are prosecuted and found guilty, i think that becomes a very significant measure of the direction of egypt and it should be a focal point of where to use the leverage. >> i agree with the ambassador

about that. i think that freedom for civil society in the media will be some of the leading indicators of where things are going and that is something we should rest on. is thing we have to remember that our problem about this is civil society. -- is why the u.s. is not you mentioned the ngo case. this started under military rule. it was not a problem under morsi . that one would hope would be solved now. on theng the gloom previous question, let me be more optimistic. looking at the composition of the interim government, their actual quite good people. university of the cairo, people who grew up with a more liberal education.

--has been a to significant it has been a significant issue. we might have a government in place that understands the importance of civil society. >> thank you. senator flake. >> i yield my time to senator mccain. >> thank you. not to take away from my time, but we believe in the early bird rule. mr. chairman, thank you. i thank the witnesses. i want to discuss the issues that america stands for that is the rule of law. andrly morsi ignored reverted. took hours to himself which were not in keeping with his own constitution. we have a law.

clearly that a coup or offgree will occasion a cut to whatever country there is. sayingee my friends here , well, he was a bad guy. people supported it overwhelmingly. it was very popular. elections were scheduled fairly soon. muche not in a situation to my regret where we are asking the new government to write a constitution and have loss and respect and abide by those rules a law. practicality or whatever reason that we might do, we will not cut off that

aid. i do not see a coherent policy. i noted this morning that we are not going to deliver f-16's. where not delivering aid, but we will not deliver f-16's. i do not see a coherent policy toward egypt. it i would those people in the streets in cairo, i would not understand it either. .here is a risk we could alienate some people in egypt where they were siding with the muslim brotherhood. the general has called for demonstrations in the street to support what they are doing. we see violence taking place in various parts of egypt. the one thing i think the muslim brotherhood knows how to do is

how to pray underground. they did it for many years and they are good at it. my concern is one, and it was a tough call for me as senator graham to make the decision that we made, but i'm not sure how we asked another country to impose a rule of law and abide by them when we do not for purposes rethink are more important or whatever. by the way, i'm glad were writing a new law that does condition things are properly. question to you, ambassador ross, whom i admire enormously, how do you reconcile that? i didn't think of the suspension of the -- what do you think of the suspension of the f-1's? f-16's?

>> the issues that you raised in the principles you talk about, i understand and respect. i think it is a terrible dilemma. the only reason that i do not favor the cut off of assistance is not because i do not respect the principle, but that i am worried what consequences will be if we do it at this point. i believe we should retain the ability to cut it off at some point. i'm afraid if we do it too right now, the effect will be in that we lose the key connection that we have with the one institution in egypt. it has some potential for restoring stability on the which is the military. we lose a significant part of the egyptian public who will read this as having been america dictates against popular will.

i'm afraid our capacity to impose the military to do things that gives us a chance to establish the kind of rule of law we would like to see take lace. >> and f-16's? >> the administration is sending a signal that there is a limited to their patients. they want the military to understand that they mean what they say. if there isn't a response, we will act. to send as a step signal. >> i thought by suspending the aid, and fill certain things motivation, iis a respect your views and i know it is a tough call. >> senator, i agree there hasn't been a coherent policy: egypt. i agree with you on respecting our own laws regarding suspending the assistance. one of the problems the

administration faces now is because they did not stand up for visible when morsi was there. now they feel they cannot stand up for it now. it seems we are piling mistake upon mistake in our policy and it is really time to take a breath and rethink. allre not cutting off relations. we're not cutting off all cooperation. it does not have to be that way. it would be the choice of the egyptian militant terry. i would hope they would choose not to cut off their noses to spite their face as i was required by the law to suspend aid temporarily until they come through on their promises to restore it the democratic process. lawyers have been jumping through hoops to fit a definition or other. i will not get into that.

it takes a lot to contradict that language. following --y the this is a young revolution. the egyptian system has gotten it wrong twice both with the supreme council as this government and then morsi as an elected government. morsi did things that were against the rule of law. contrary to what we call a democratic process. that we do believe is contrary to the rule of law can actually be the dynamic that pushes egypt the chester didn't read it third time. -- it which is -- it pushes egypt to get it right the third time. >> and the f-16's? >> i do not understand them

other than an immediate reaction to what was said yesterday. if that is the case, i'm not sure it makes any sense to have done it. if there was a justification for 's to egypt, that justification should stand anyway. >> thank you. thank you to my friend from arizona. >> thank you. has been an important hearing. many of my questions have been addressed. let me go to a couple of things. we need to do what is best in our own assessment of american interest. aren't perceptions important factor for us to consider. over fourth of july and he spent time in jordan and the u.a.e. this was the time of the development of the street protest.

they were strongly in favor of continuing support to the egyptian military. i have not had direct conversations with the israeli government officials, at least what you read in the press, it was suggested that they feel the same. then his been a theme of the testimony. -- that has been a theme of the testimony. would be in.a.e. the strong position if u.s. continued aid to the government, especially that military during this time? is absolutely yes. all of them see egypt as a second filler in the region. all of them would be concerned as taking steps because they would be worried about -- >> they are in favor of

continuing aid. is just in regards to egypt different from ours. even my fellow panelists have been raising democracy and human rights and civil society and free media rights of all citizens, including christians, these interest of hours to u.s. don't takeenerally an interest to such issue. >> i would not characterize it as not take an interest in the issue. righte to make the decision for our interest. the interest of close allies that we have that look at it differently -- one of the reasons they look at it differently is that they are in the neighborhood and we leave many time zones away -- live many time zones away. the answer to question is

yes. . i would go beyond that to say the challenge we have now is the one to promote democracy and maintain our significant interest and maintain the constancy of our relationship. sometimes these things will come into contradiction with one another. there is a fourth element. in some respects, if egypt gets it right this time and if we get it right this time, egypt can be the model are democratic change in the region that people have been talking about for two years. right now it is not that model. itsas not yet found footprint. it is not know where it is heading or how it will build this democratic culture. so, yes, the region will look at this carefully and the relationship is important. the payoff will be important. >> on this discussion about trying to get it right, i want to pursue some questions that

senator johnson was getting earlier. so of the things that was obvious and inspiring about the initial protests that toppled the previous government is that significant participation of young people and a significant number of what i would characterize as secular opposition. so much of the discussion we have had today and the muslim brotherhood, it has been pointed out that there are a islamists to the right of the brotherhood. i'm not sure if it is more right or left. what about the youth movement in secular opposition? if that still vibrant? have they been as active in recent no caps? ests?ot they have not been able to unify

under a particular banner. knowing the strength of their passion -- >> well, they have not gone away. the rebellion movement, the by a veryon was done small number of young people who focused on what the recourse was. some refer to this as being a popular uprising. there was a perception that there wasn't any other option. there is still the problem that there isn't the kind of coherence to this. there isn't an unmistakable political agenda. there is in an organization geared to having that program. that is why we are the focus on building the civil society and allowing ngos to function so what they wantke

and channel it into more constructive and what they do want. senator, i think the secular part of the sector has really been vitalized. they were looking toward parliamentary elections. they be allies they have to do a much at her job and they have done in the past and organizing in order to to -- do a much better job and they have done in the past and organizing. there really are differences among them. liberals and leftists and revolutionaries. they will not necessarily come together in one political force. they could coalesce into two or three more viable parties. there is a difference among them regarding the brotherhood. there are those within the secular opposition who say the brotherhood has got to be

included somehow or we are in for trouble, and there are seers who are happy to their rivals decimated however to reapns and hope political advantage during the next election because of that. >> we have been lamenting juror for the absence of society, but i say it is the opposite. we have seen the face of egyptian society and it is exciting. people ready to participate in politics and try to have change. they do not have a positive agenda yet. they are not organized. they're not yet coherent with respect to what they want proactively. the raw material for building society as manifested. we know what it looks like. i would add within the muslim brotherhood, there are more -- there is more pluralism than

what is suggested that what you see in the press. when you read muslim brotherhood websites, there is a debate going on between the old generation and the younger generation. between those who want to open up the movement. and those who don't. there's a lot going on in this laboratory a change. it makes it a very exciting time in egypt. >> thank you, mr. chair. >> thank you to the panel for coming today and expressing your opinions. i would like to get a direct response for whether you think the military to govern is a coup or not a coup. >> a legal definition? >> yes. i believe it was a coup. it is often the case with military coups. it is not unique to this case. >> just so we have one point of

view, i would hesitate to call it a coup because the military power. taken their actions since then, they want to see the beast or ration of civilian government. >> the reason this is important is because our law says when a coup occurs, the aid ends. a can debate whether it is good idea to have eight or not, but the law is the law. if we decide we are above the law, it is hard to be preaching to the rest of the world about having a rule of law. this undermines our understanding in the world. this goes against anyone who says they are for the rule of law. if you say this is not a coup because the military, there isn't a general currently anding at, it is semantics not going to the point of this.

our law says if the military had a substantial involvement in replacing a democratically doesn'tleader, it matter whether there is a general in charge are not, but putting a resident who has been elected under house arrest -- we do not know where some of these people are. this is the definition of the kind of thing we are supposedly opposed to. i was a great fan of the muslim brotherhood. but the thing is if we are not going to open a the law, if we are simply going to say where the panel says aid is a good idea and you say it should continue to you're telling us to flout the law. you are trying to say the law is not important and that basically we can decide the benefits of whether to continue aid is more important than the law. if you are coming your rising to a level where you say you are above everything for what we stand for. if the president will

not adhere to the rule of law, he will say that he creates the law. we damage our standing in the world and what we stand for. go around the world telling anyone anything. there is a huge argument you can have about whether it is a good or bad idea. if we think we are biting the goodwill of the egyptian people while they are being doused with tear gas that has been paid by taxpayer dollars, i do not think you're jumping up and down saying, yay, america. it has gone to criminals and . hascrats and dictators often gone into the pockets of plutocrats and gets louis vuittons full of cash and spend it in paris. it is obscene. for us to send aid to egypt and family used it for

their own personal grand iceman grandeur, you look at the history of fever week, people have taken the money and use in -- use it for their own benefit. that mckellarth ,e -- military establishment some and rise up and become a strong man -- someone could rise up and become a strawman. maybe whatever i want means of reclaiming lands that they claim israel is taking from them. it is chaos over there to be sending into this chaos. lawwe going to open a the -- obey the law?

to say this is not a coup is to not have an intelligent debate from my point of view. i would love to see or hear if there is a justification for breaking the law. if this is a coup and you want to continue aid, you are arguing for breaking the law. , since i was the one who refuse to call it a coup, i will take a first crack at responding. made.ints you requires a longer discussion, but i think we can be proud of the billions of dollars of aid we have provided to egypt. we helped build a country that was largely broken. stole?ding what mubarak >> and has yet to be determined that he stole money. it sound like the military is

involved in the government. >> that is the second part of the question. the first part, i would be happy to discuss further with what our aid has accomplished. on the second part, the system that exists under morsi provided no outlet, no legal outlet to remove presidents. the court had suspended the people's assembly, the parliament. it would have been the avenue to pursue a rule of law methodology. intervene,litary did it was intervening on the basis of what it defined as a popular will. whatever it was. signed aof people petition and would put down their address and identity card number and went out on the streets and make clear that they want to see a change. i do not think it is a question

-- the people have signed petitions against obama. did they get a general took over the white house and worst obama out -- we have a system that allows for -- that forced upon outcome of we have a system that allows for holding people accountable. governance did not have that mentality. that is why this is a question mark. >> thank you. chairman.ou, mr. my own view is that the obama administration is taking calibrated actions to elicit responses inrow egypt from all sides.

i think they are handling a volatile situation in the best way that they can. i think we all understand that. march havingt last .eft libya and tunisia they were drafting the constitution. in each country there was a muslim brotherhood that was responsible in the leadership role. each one of them was clearly trying to have a class douche and that reflected their values and a history of their country. there isn't a one-size-fits-all. they are different in each country. each have a different history. this -- as to you is they begin to draft the new , what is it that you would like to see included?

that was not in the last one? what is it that you believe could be a consensus amongst those that were protesting? be agreed upon and included in the constitution? the words in the constitution are ultimately going to determine the outcome whether or not all parties feel that something is fair and reflective of egypt of today. meany of you wish to tell what it is you would like to see in the constitution or what you believe the consensus would be? >> i will make a quick comment. i think the key will be the respect for minority rights and women's rights. the former constitution has different shadings in it that i think raises questions in both of these areas.

may -- >> there are three points to be looking at for whether this is a constitution being developed at would help create a solid democracy was that one is protection for the rights of all citizens come equal rights for all citizens and lack of discrimination and not different provisions in the constitution for different kinds of citizens. .hat is one thing to look for another thing that was absence -- absent was a rebalancing of powers among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. the executive has been powerful in egypt. that is something egyptians were demanding. the legislature should have more power. >> that would be included in the new constitution? >> that is not really clear.

clear whether they have a committee to do this. there isn't much guidance in terms of what they will do. >> i will agree with what they said. the provisions that need to be expressed in regards to the protection of women and so forth also has to be balanced off with the weight because addition to find islam. that, but in the previous constitution it said it in a way that suggested to people that there was going to be a long-term process, which i think made people nervous. >> do you think there will be a consensus among those who are protesting? should that we verified so there isn't -- sure thed think for masses that came out on the streets are unified around this. whether they can translate that

into the politics of reform remains to be seen. >> they could elicit a counterrevolution. >> sure. >> is that your opinion? >> yeah. ago, it was the egyptian government claims it never received such a request. do any of you know the status of that request to have a monitoring capacity inside cairo looking at these human rights issues? >> how do you see the influence of the neighboring countries? you have cutter on the one hand and you have saudi arabia on the other hand. could you elaborate a little

bit on this set of pressures that exist from the outside on the result that each seeks to achieve? >> there is no doubt that the saudis have immediately come in to provide support for the new government and for what has happened. the fact that they pledged $1 billion and have already begun providing the assistance, they clearly see this from their standpoint a strategic course they want the new leadership to look effective. it's interesting, cutter had provided a lot of money and the question is whether there is tar's part. qua >> let me have a follow up.

do you think we can solve these human rights problems if we don't have the u.n. on site to document what is happening so there can be an evidencery discussion about who is being harmed, who is being prosecuted and persecuted? is it necessary to have the u.n. to do that work? can we get a quick answer from each of you please? >> on this question there has to be some kind of international engagement whether at this time u.n. or others and egypt has been quite resistent to this. they see this as interference in their internal affairs. but there is danger of escalating human rights violations. turkey is a major player here is one who has a difference with saudi arabia and the others in terms of whether the

removal of morsi was a good thing. > do we need to u.n. in? i think we do. >> egypt would be well adviced to say yes. we're able to do through our embassy to do what we can. but the legitimacy of the united nations would help egypt. >> you need international observers in there. >> we have a vote and you've been very resilient here. one final set of questions. ne is what happens we 30 years almost since the camp david accord funded egypt? is what happened to mu bar recommend a coup? >> we can get into the legal definition of this and i'm not a lawyer and maybe i answered

more quickly than i should have. there is a larger set of strategic issues we have to keep in mind when we evaluate these issues. that's why i've said from my standpoint we need to be able to protect the assistance right now. >> what mubarek was also removed by a coup. but he was not democratically elected. >> i find it interesting when we pick and choose talking about the rule of law because if in fact mubarek was a coup then assistance to egypt at the based upon the view that it was a coup would have been suspended. doctor, i understand, your comment we assisted the regime. to splilt the harries when you

have national security interests that i think are prevailing but i think about when we choose to say that the rule of law should be observed and when not. and so it depends what your strict definition is at the end of the day. what could be the offer of reconciliation? we talked about the importance of having an all inclusive egypt, an egypt for all. what could be an offer of reconciliation that would bring the muslim brotherhood back as part of an egypt for all? >> there are two issues that are paramount and probably not doable. one there would have to be an of those in rest the brotherhood. those who have broken the law should stand trial but these have been present i have arrests. number two, inclusion of muslim

brotherhood representatives in the government. make room for them in the administration. he one that is not doable is the restoration of morsi as president. so they are going to have to climb down the tree on that issue. but perhaps the other issues might be incentive enough to enter into a dialogue. >> any other thoughts on that? >> no. >> is it possible to envision an egypt for all when you have secularism between and islamist who seem to want as at least morsi when he was in power seem to want to have the country move in a direction that is different than what a greater part obviously as a result of this uprising of civil society wanted to see. how do you reconcile in the

effort to have an egypt for all with those who want to see embedded in the law a almosts of a religious point of view and those in society who want to keep religion maybe as we consider it in the united states separate and apart from its government, how do you reconcile that? >> one of the things i did as ambassador was invite people in our civil rights missouri to do lectures in egypt and that was to help egyptians understand you have to start somewhere on the path to real democratic governance but it may take time and very hard effort. so the answer to your question is yes it's possible to envision an egypt in which secular tensions are abaited, the rule of law is encome passed. but i think it's going to take time. we're at the early sfages of a prolonged process and it's

going to require not only their parings but also our patience yens as a friend of that country. >> it takes time for mutual adjustment. and they are going through a period now where there is such a high degree of polarization where it's difficult to adopt that mind set. but if you can build a process geared toward reconciliation, over time this is something that can emerge. religion the role of in politics is something they will have to work through. it was very tightly controlled nd islattist could participate in a slight way. then after mubarek they

probably went too far in the other direction. they will have to work out some sort of argument that everybody can live with and where they can be air competition. thank you all for a indepth analysis. i think you've given us a lot of insights. his hearing is ajuned. >> coming up on c-span the senate confirmation hearing for homeland security deputy ecretary no, ma'am knee. - nominee.

>> tomorrow morning the u.s. chamber of commerce and aarp host a substitution on ways to get more americans to save for retirement. live coverage begins at 9:00 eastern on c-span2. and at noon eastern economist talk about the effect of immigration on the u.s. economy and job market. we'll have live coverage here on c-span. >> this is a website. it's the history of popular culture. it's a collection of stories on the history of popular culture. and to say pop culture, it's quite more than that. i think what wife been trying to do with this site is go into more detail with how popular culture impacts the politics

and sports and other arenas. it's not just about pop culture. what we have on the site are stories about popular music. we have sports biography. we have history of media entities, newspaper history. there are a range of things. and when i formulated the site, i purposely cast a live net to see what would work. >> more with pop history 8:00 founder sunday at on c-span's q&a. >> republican members of the homeland security committee boycotted the president's nominee for the position in department of homeland security. he's been accused of improperly helping a company secure an international investor visa.

he was questioned about that at today's hearing. his is an hour and 40 minutes.

>> good morning, everyone. welcome to this hearing. welcome, secretary mayorkas. welcome to senator feinstein. and certainly welcome to our colleagues on the committee, especially senator landrieu, who has agreed to say a few words about you before we get started. senator feinstein and senator landrieu have a markup going on right now. they have come here to introduce secretary mayorkas. we are grateful you could come. >> thank you, and i appreciate the courtesy, so thank you. it is a pleasure for me to

introduce president obama's nominee for deputy secretary of the department of homeland security, alejandro mayorkas. i have known ali for many years and have been proud to recommend him to president clinton for position of the united states attorney for the central district of california as well as to president obama for his current position as director of the u.s. citizenship and immigration services. the role of deputy secretary within the department is really an important one. the deputy secretary is charged with overseeing the agency's efforts to counter terrorism and enhance the security and management of our borders, while facilitating trade and travel and enforcing our immigration laws. additionally, this secretary assists in safeguarding and securing cyberspace, supports national security in times of disaster, and that is in

coordination with federal, state, local, international, and private sector partners. mr. mayorkas brings to this office a diverse background and a set of experiences in both the private and public sectors. born in cuba, mr. mayorkas earned his b.a. with distinction from the university of california. he earned his law degree from loyola in 1985. those who have enjoyed the opportunity to work with him regard him as being highly ntelligent, thoughtful, kind and compassionate, and dedicated to doing the right thing. from 1989 to 1998, he served as an assistant u.s. attorney for the central district of california, where he prosecuted

a wide array of federal crimes, specializing in the prosecution of white-collar crimes. federal law enforcement agencies recognized his success with multiple awards. for example, he received commendations from fbi director louis freeh for his successful prosecution of operation polar cap, which was the largest money-laundering case in the nation at the time. he continued to distinguish himself by becoming the first u.s. attorney in the central district of california to be appointed from within the office. he created the civil rights section in the office to prosecute hate crimes. he developed an innovative program to address violent crime by targeting criminals' possession of firearms, prosecuting street gangs, and developing after-school programs to help at-risk youth

realize their potential. he uniquely demonstrated the ability to simultaneously be firm with criminals and supportive and empowering our future leaders. as supported by the many law enforcement and community awards he received during his tenure of u.s. attorney, mr. mayorkas' accomplishments have extended beyond his district. he expanded his community outreach programs in cooperation with international players in the fight against crime. he directly resolved cases while also overseeing hundreds of attorneys, addressing immigration matters, which

included complex and sensitive prosecution of individuals and rings, reducing false immigration documents, illegal reentry cases, and alien smuggling conspiracies. at the administration for the drug enforcement administration, the director noted that he was instrumental in addressing violent crime and expanded cooperation with other nations to address the growing threat of transnational crime. with his prosecuting white-collar crime, public corruption, computer-related crime, and international money laundering, she wrote such a broad base of experience provided him with a unique perspective on threats to national security. he further developed his sharp legal skills as a partner at a firm from 2001 to 2009, where he represented companies in high-profile and sensitive government enforcement cases. he was recognized by his worldwide firm with an annual award for leadership, excellence, and citizenship, and was named by the "national law journal" as one of the 50 most influential minority lawyers in america in 2008.

since his confirmation as director of the uscis four years ago, he has continued to exert his influence through leadership, excellence, and citizenship in accomplishing the agency's mission. he has improved immigration services and policies of uscis by realigning its priorities for a modern-day america that seeks to preserve its legacy as a nation of immigrants while ensuring national security and public safety -- no easy task. throughout his current role, he has successfully preserved and increased the integrity of our immigration laws by decreasing fraud and bringing accountability to our immigration system. he has worked to secure our nation's criminal and immigration laws in the face of increasing gang and border violence. as technology advances, so too have our needs to prevent fraud

and to safeguard immigration documents from tampering. mr. mayorkas has confronted the challenge by enhancing the scope and frequency of national security vetting of applicants for immigration benefits by redesigning immigration documentation with enhanced security features. he has led uscis and the other half of its mission, to reserve the role of america as a just nation that treats immigrants at our shores humanely and with an eye toward the potential they bring to our ation. to combat notarial fraud that

undermine the integrity of the immigration system, mr. mayorkas has launched the unauthorized practice of immigration law initiative. it is a nationwide effort with federal, state, and municipal agencies and enforcement authorities that work to raise awareness in communities and investigate and prosecute wrongdoers. after the 2010 earthquake in haiti, he developed and implemented a humanitarian parole program on an emergency basis to save orphans and unite children with their adoptive families here. significantly, under president obama's directive, he granted deferred action to immigrants who brought children to this country to remain in the united states. he swiftly implemented the deferred action for childhood arrivals initiative in 60 days. in less than one year, over 500,000 people have applied in the united states, the only home they have known. he has realigned the agency's organizational structure, including offices and facilities worldwide, to more better serve. e has budget reviews that have

resulted in cost saving measures that resulted in $160 million in budget cuts for fiscal year 2010. mr. chairman, i took an additional amount of time because i know there are currents swirling about his confirmation, but i also know that this is an incredibly special human being who is well deserving of this position, and i know that this committee will do the right thing and confirm him for nomination to the floor of the senate. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. thank you very much. senator landrieu, thank you so

much for taking time for joining this committee. we welcome your remarks. >> thank you. i will be brief. i wanted to join senator feinstein in that fine and comprehensive and strong and excellent introduction of alejandro mayorkas. i have come to know this gentleman very well over the last several years and want the members of this committee to know that i have hardly worked with a finer individual in any department of the federal government. he is a can-do administrator with a heart for people, an eye on the bottom line, and a person that is absolutely full f the highest integrity. unlike senators feinstein, i did not know alejandro mayorkas 16 years ago. i met him two years ago this month and was so taken by his immediate willingness to help in a very serious problem, mr. chairman, that had to do with children that been literally ost, stuck in orphanages for

years, parents in america desperate for someone to listen to them, and this man, who runs the largest immigration agency n the world, with all of the pressure that is on him from all of us, took time out of his schedule and identified some staff that could help. to me, that says it all. nd we need people in our government that are willing to serve people directly, that understand the people, and i know alejandro mayorkas is that ind of person.

i must admit some additional statements about the swirling that senator feinstein talked about into the record so they do not come up the meeting this morning. but i just want to say how strongly i feel that the president could not have found a better person with more integrity than the gentleman sitting before us today, and i am going to support him heartily, i am going to talk with every member of this committee on both sides of the aisle, and urge them to quickly confirm this nominee, because this department needs all of the focus and help, and as the chair of the homeland security appropriations committee, i hope my voice and my opinion will be strongly heard, and i thank you, mr. chairman, and best of luck to you, mr. mayorkas, and i thank your family for being here. his wife is not here, his kids, because they are taking a vacation. he has not taken a vacation because he is so busy, but his brother is here to support him, and as a political refugee from cuba, i think he can certainly appreciate the importance of our democracy, our laws, and the significance of citizenship in the view our nation and the world. thank you. >> thank you. let me say, you could not have better advocates and senator feinstein and senator landrieu, and we are grateful each of you

would be here to share your thoughts and your determination to ensure we do the right thing. today we meet consider the nomination of alejandro mayorkas, president obama's choice to serve as deputy secretary of the department of homeland security. he served as director of the citizenship and immigration service. thank you for that service and your willingness to serve for the deputy secretary position. we strive to make sure that federal agencies work better and more efficiently with resources we entrust to them. part of our responsibilities is ensuring we have effective leaders in place to provide central guidance. our committee must consider administration nominees in both

a thorough and timely manner. at the department of homeland security, i believe there are 15 senior division positions that are or will be vacant in the near future. at least six of positions require senate confirmation. i call this phenomenon executive ranch swiss cheese. congressman jason chaffetz, a republican colleague, puts the leadership predicament at the department of homeland security this way -- it is one of the biggest agencies that we have, and it has got one of the lowest levels of morale on record, based on surveys. when you have vacancies at the top, you have this agency that is unfulfilled, there is a total lack of leadership. he has a point. in six weeks we face the prospect of the department led by an active secretary and an acting deputy secretary. the issues this apartment deals with everyday are daunting, the threat of terrorist attacks,

cyber attacks, on a 24/7 basis, border security, immigration reform, and the list goes on and on and on. this department has needed and will continue to be strong eadership. janet napolitano and the former deputy secretary has provided that the last four years. secretary napolitano will be gone by early december. ll of us must ensure that we have the leadership for this department soon. having a confirmed deputy

secretary of homeland security will help fill this vacuum. it is critical that we carry out our constitutional responsibilities to provide, advise, and consent. although our nominee is currently director of an agency that provides direction, it is no surprise that i say the next deputy secretary will have some big shoes to fill. the former deputy secretary was respected by this committee on a bipartisan basis for her leadership. it is safe to say the department needs somebody with her level of commitment to tackle the problems head on. it is no small part due to her leadership and that the department has made great strides in many areas. in narrowing the many issues identified as high-risk by gao and my talks with mr. mayorkas, he understands well these challenges and is committed to turning these efforts into

moving the department forward. his leadership has earned respect of several former officials, including someone who said she would sit next to you if it would help. richard skinner, the inspector general, elaine duke, and robert bonner, who have given strong recommendations for mr. mayorkas. i will ask consent that these records and others we have received be included, including one from the u.s. chamber of commerce. we want those included in the hearing record without objection. i would also like to he take a minute to review mr. mayorkas' qualifications. the senate has twice confirmed him for positions. the senate confirmed him by voice vote in 1999 to serve for the u.s. attorney for the central district in california. it did so again in 2009 to serve as director of the u.s. citizenship and immigration services. it is as director of that agency that he has made national security a priority by taking on fraud head-on. he created a directive for

fraud protection and prevention. he was responsible for turning around the project to create an electronic case management system. now it is on a much sounder footing and is beginning to deliver new capabilities every few months. he was also in charge of standing up a massive new rogram to defer action for childhood arrivals. not everyone may agree on the merits of this program, but it is one i support. i think we can agree on this, that getting it up and running in a short time, 60 days, is an amazing ccomplishment. with the debate still ongoing, his expertise will be helpful

in leading this department that would be charged with implementing comprehensive immigration reform. this is where the rubber will hit the road. there are also questions that we have recently have been raised about mr. mayorkas' qualifications. over the last 72 hours we have learned through unusual circumstances that the director is the subject of an ongoing dhs inspector general investigation. reports suggest it relates to the purported role he may have played in facilitating investor visas. at this point in time, we do not have all the facts. it is my understanding mr. mayorkas has not even been interviewed by the office of inspector general, despite the investigation began almost a year ago. the office does not have preliminary findings. the initial allegations have not been confirmed at this point in time and the office of inspector general has found no wrongdoing by mr. mayorkas. i might also add the same inspector general offices has not have a senate confirmed leader for over two years and

has had a series of acting directors, one of whom is under investigation himself by a member of this committee. before this sensitive information was disseminated in the remarkable manner on monday night, the office of inspector general had not informed mr. mayorkas of its investigation. rather than allowing rumor and speculation and innuendo to rule the day, this hearing will allow us to continue to process the vetting of this nominee. i recognize the republican colleagues, in a letter sent yesterday, would likely withhold all action, including a hearing on his nomination until the inspector general has concluded the investigation, i respectfully disagree. hearing provides an appropriate setting -- first, the hearing provides an ppropriate setting for members

to ask questions of the nominee. his type of open forum where its members ask questions and the nominee is given an opportunity to respond is encouraged. we know it is months away from completing its investigation. given that this office is acing its own set of challenges, the investigation will not be concluded in a timely manner. i believe -- with the acting secretary until the investigation is completed. especially given that september 7, janet napolitano will be heading up the california education system. how can we honestly suspect the department of homeland security to carry out its mission ithout strong and stable

eadership? given the qualifications of the nominee, i believe it is important for us to proceed with the nomination today. we will be practicing something taught to me by my parents, to treat people the way you want to be treated. one of the questions i asked him -- and i put myself in your shoes, and if someone were questioning my integrity, we live our whole lives with integrity. to have them question by innuendo and twist it in the wind, do you need that? we are trying to get people to come and serve in these positions. the inspector general for this epartment has dropped out of

the race. why go through all of that? we need to move. we need to move and hold a hearing. we will have the hearing today. at the end of the day, i am interested in nothing but the truth. i hope my colleagues feel the same way. all nominees have an opportunity to address questions about their experiences and qualifications for the position, both in public and private. we have had an opportunity to speak with mr. mayorkas privately on several occasions and be questioned by us. this week i had the opportunity to review his fbi file. i thought maybe i missed something.

his file has convinced me that he should have the opportunity to be heard. when he spoke with my colleagues, i asked if we wanted to go forward with this. when i asked him if he wanted to go forward with the hearing, he said that he is eager to appear. we are going to make that ossible for you. we welcome your brothers james and anthony. i am glad you are here. i understand you have daughters and a wife somewhere else. we are happy that you're here. that being said, i'm going to introduce our witness and swear him in. then we will ask him questions.

the biographical questionnaire submitted by the committee -- and had his financial statement reviews by the office of government ethics. without objection, it will be made part of the hearing record with the exception of the financial data, which will be available for public inspection in the committee's office. rules require that all witnesses at nomination hearings are asked to give their testimony under oath. i will ask you in joining me in standing and raising your right hand. you swear that the testimony you're about to give the ommittee is the truth, the

whole truth, and nothing but ruth, so help you god? >> yes. >> feel free to introduce your family. i will ask you three perfunctory questions than then we will open it up up to the committee. please proceed. welcome. >> thank you very much. chairman, distinguished numbers of the committee, i am honored by the president's nomination to be here today. i am honored by senator feinstein's introductory remarks. also of those from yourself. in my professional life, i have served for 16 years. my drive to serve the country are grounded in my family history and upbringing. my parents brought my sister and me to this country as political refugees in 1960, having escaped the commonest takeover of cuba. my parents instilled in their children a deep and everlasting appreciation of the freedoms and liberties that define our

country and a respect for its laws. our nation, they taught us, is like no other. its qualities are never to be taken for granted, instead cherished and protected. mr. chairman, distinguished members of the committee, my beautiful wife and our two young daughters are on a vacation with our daughter's grandmother. we thought it was important that they carry through with those long-ago planned travels because there may not be many more of them. far less beautiful, but no less loved, my two brothers are ere. they are here in in their stead, and i am deeply grateful. >> they look like they have your back. >> i am deeply grateful.

my brother james and my brother anthony traveled across the ountry to be here. i have served our country for almost 12 years as a federal prosecutors in the u.s. attorney's office for the central district of california. each and every day, day and night, and most often seven days a week, i enforced the laws of this land, and did so aggressively and with distinction. i did so first as an assistant u.s. attorney, then as a senate confirmed u.s. attorney. it was an incredible honor for me to stand in a court of law with law enforcement at my side to prosecute the laws of this land. i announced to the judge and he jury -- for almost four years, i have served on immigration services.

its workforce spans the globe. with a dedicated and talented workforce, some of whom are here today. we have prioritized and trengthened our agency's national security safeguard, and are combating fraud to protect the integrity of the system. mr. chairman, distinguished members of the committee, my parents not only instilled in us a deep appreciation for the freedoms and liberties that define our country and our abiding respect for the law. they also taught us to lead a principled life, grounded in values, ethics, honor,and integrity. their teachings, advice, lectures, admonitions, and support were strong, but not more powerful than the lesson f example.

they conducted themselves as i expect to lead my life. as this committee considers what i have accomplished, it is a glimpse into the character of my parents. i look forward to your questions. i am here to answer them. and i am honored to be here. >> thank you for being here, or your service, and willingness to testify. 'm going to delay my questioning and turn to the senator from north dakota. > thank you. i have to tell you -- >> can you hold for just a second? >> i need to ask three perfunctory questions.

one, is there anything in your background that might prevent a conflict of interest? >> no. >> is there anything that would prevent you from discharging the responsibilities for the office for which were nominated? >> no. >> is there anything that would keep you from appearing and testifying in a court of law if confirmed? >> no. > thank you. as a preliminary matter, i want to express to the chairman how much i agreed with his comments this morning. and with his concern about a process that seems to get short-circuited by rumors and innuendo and lack of credible evidence. i want to tell you how much i

enjoyed meeting you in my office as we relayed security concerns, understanding that your commitment to law enforcement, your commitment and support by people you worked with, which means the world to me that cops like you. you are willing to do the tough work of taking tough cases to trial and representing the u.s. in cases that maybe other people avoid. i appreciated hearing that history about you. i appreciate having the chance to meet with you. hopefully, if everything comes to fruition the way we think it will, i look forward to the opportunity of bringing you to north dakota and introducing you to the unique challenges we have in the northern border. i don't think -- i guess i have to decide this morning whether we will have the discussion i thought we were going to

have. i think it will hopefully help clear some things up and give you a chance to respond. it is hard, from a witness's tandpoint, from your standpoint, to have an opportunity to respond to what can be a frustrating situation for you and your family. i'm going to jump right in. in this situation with funds management where you had multiple requests to intervene in the process, what structures, rules, or practices did you put in place to make sure that no ethics were violated? >> thank you, senator. t was a pleasure to meet you

as well. it will be an honor to be confirmed and have the opportunity to travel with you to your state and explore the challenges of the northern border. senator, if i can, the issues -- the difficult, complex ssues of law and policy that challenge the agency and present opportunities for esolution percolate up through he supervisory chain, when they need resolution and when they have broad application, the manner in which those cases reach me is through cases. we are an operation. we are a large agency. we protect our nations security.

we combat fraud and assess the applications that come before us through the cases that they present to us. i have become involved in those complex, difficult, legal policy issues when they are raised to my attention by my colleagues, which very often occurs. by members of congress, which very often occurs. by members of the public or applications themselves. we deferred to adjudicators on the frontline to adjudicate cases. i do not adjudicate cases. i address legal policy issues that are brought to my attention through the channels that i have outlined.

>> what types of verbal orders or requests did you make to your staff on this issue that would not be captured by e-mail or in any other written ecord? >> are you speaking with respect to the -- matter? > yes. >> i sat around a table with my colleagues, which is my practice when difficult issues rise to my level. i sat around with my colleagues and we resolved the issues. >> so there would have been some verbal communications beyond e-mails and written orrespondence? >> most certainly. we have set up structures with response to this question to resolve difficult legal issues. sometimes we are able to resolve the issues with colleagues who are handling the

matter directly. sometimes different people have to be involved in the discussion and bring their expertise. we have set up senior policy committees. we have set up leadership meetings. we have set up open and collaborative forums to resolve the issues. i do not resolve those issues alone. >> would there have been a scheduling note of who would've attended the meetings? >> there very well might be. certainly, there were a number of people around the table when we discussed the issues. >> i believe it is safe to say that the visa program has challenges attached to it through its nature. what added responsibility does an agency leader have when dealing with the program that may be considered controversial as a result of the way the program is structured? what responsibility do they

have to make sure that the orders are clear and the staff understands the potential pitfalls? >> i appreciate the question. let me speak to my responsibility. then let me speak about the program about which you have inquired. it is my responsibility to assure that we administer our responsibilities, abilities to safeguard the nation's security and to protect the integrity of the system. we do it in strict accordance with the law. based on the law and the facts oma and nothing else. we adhere to the highest ideals of public service, and they are correct. that is how i carry out my responsibilities. the program is controversial.

it is comples. it is like no other program we have administered. frankly, it is a program that is primarily a business and economic program, and not an immigration program. what is involved in the case is an assessment, whether foreign capital is invested properly in a new commercial enterprise, whether the amount of capital is at risk throughout the term of the investment, whether the business enterprise proposed is specifically detailed and viable, and whether the models submitted to us to estimate future jobs are sound and reasonable. those are some of the issues involved in the adjudication of

the ev5 program. as a director of this agency, i observed that the program was a staffed with nine adjudicators, no economists, no business analysts, and no specialists in national security or fraud detection. throughout my tenure, we have built the program. we have bright individuals dedicated to ensuring the integrity of the program as it has grown throughout the years. >> i have a second round of questions if you're able. senator mccaskill? >> from your record, i see that you're a prosecutor. i like to call what you are, a 911 prosecutor.

i did not have the luxury like my colleagues did. as you well know, we thought we were the real prosecutors, and you're not. having said that, i know that you moved up to u.s. attorney, which is extraordinarily unusual and speaks to your apabilities. as a prosecutor, i will be candid with you. these things floating out there, they may be rumor or innuendo, or political, but you have to do a rebuttal. you cannot talk around it. i will give you opportunity to say what you want to say about what is being said about you because you are not going to get another opportunity like this. this thing will swirl, and there will be incriminations, and it will be a political brouhaha.

i respect the ig office, but this ig office is trouble for a lot of reasons. why don't you take a few minutes here, and you have five, and say what you would want us to know about the accusations being made about you, that you tried to use inappropriately, your position, to influence a matter because of who was interested in the outcome. >> thank you for the opportunity. let me share with you if i may -- i felt like a 911 rosecutor. it was monday evening when i was forwarded a copy of the e-mail that was published to this committee about an apparent inspector general investigation of which i reportedly am the subject. i had no idea. frankly, i do not understand

it. i will say this, and i say it firmly, and i say it nequivocally, and i say it after 16 years of service to this country, 12 of which were as a law enforcement official, i have never in my career exercised undue influence to influence the outcome of a case. i have never based my decisions on who brings a case, but rather upon the facts and the law. i have taken my oaths of office, and i live my life by those oaths. i refer to this on a personal

level in my opening statement. my entire life, i have tried to live in a way that brings honor to my parents. there has never been an instance in which i have failed to do so in terms of the integrity with which i have brought my efforts to bear on everything i have done, whether in the private sector or the public sector. i look forward to learning about the obligations. i do not quite understand them, but i will tell you that the allegations are unequivocally false. the gulf coast matter is a matter about which we received complaints in 2011. issues in that case rose to my attention because the ev5

program is complex. a few issues were brought to my attention, and i addressed them with my colleagues around the table. >> normally i don't jump in. i think it might be helpful for us to have a basic understanding of the program. my understanding is that you did not create the program. it was not created in this administration. it was created in 1992, and we are struggling to come out of a recession. >> you mean this decade, not this century. >> it was created in 1992. what they were trying to do was figure out how to get the economy moving. one way to do that is have

access to capital. take a few minutes and give us hat i will call ev5-101. >> i will be eager to continue my response. he program has its creation. it is premised on the belief that individuals in foreign countries that are willing to invest in the u.s., and those investments yield jobs. they have an opportunity then to gain lawful status in the united states. that is the top level of the issue. that is the top level of the issue. >> is it a green card?

>> they first get a conditional green card. then after two years, if the jobs had been created, 10 jobs specifically have been created or are likely to be created within a reasonable period of time. this gives you an idea of the issues we wrestle with. but if they are created, the conditions of permanent resident status are removed, and the foreign individual is a lawful permanent resident. therefore, they are eligible for citizenship after a number of years, provided that they qualify. >> continue please. >> the allegation is that i somehow -- by somehow sitting

around the table and resolving a couple of difficult issues that were unsettled in our agency in the administration of the program. it was nothing that i have not done hundreds of times when difficult issues reached my attention. the agency needs resolution of them. it is interesting to note that i summarize the allegations to be a favored treatment was afforded the gulf coast. noteworthy is the fact that the complaints persisted in 2012, and they continue to this day.

also noteworthy -- >> what complaints are you referencing specifically? >> delays, layer of the agency to adjudicate the case. on this particular case, the complaints exist. >> so it has not been resolved? >> i don't know the status of the cases. >> the people that you allegedly tried to help? >> i don't know the status of the cases. would you talk about concerns my colleagues or governors might raise and the kinds of concerns

that might be raised by someone who is attempting to establish one of these designated centers, like, it is taking too long, or i have not agreed to establish the center. can you share with us the nature >> myose conversations? time is up. i was teasing you. like you were teasing about your brothers not being as beautiful as your wife. that may be the only time we disagree. >> let me follow up by saying you are the difficulties

personally addressed? involved, they , andbroader applicability the one issue we memorialize the .esolution of that the resolution of the case showed up in final drafts. the issue is this. there is an administrative appeals decision in the matter

of izumi. >> that must be an anachronism. >> it is not. reflect the complexity, the foreign investors capital throughout the term of the investment. the existence in the document against the capital being at risk. if you can redeem it, your capital is not at risk, and you do not satisfy the legal requirement. the issue brought to my attention was the following.

is it the mere existence of an agreement that disqualifies an satisfying the requirements, or is it a question of looking at the terms and whether they are against the requirement that the b at risk. case, the individual investor could convert common shares to preferred shares or vice versa. nor mays not a market, there ever be a market for those

shares, so the conclusion was that capital remained at risk because there may not be a market, and redemption may never brought to. that was my attention. when we resolve it we can so they canance in strict cases adherence to the law more ably. cases based on the facts and the law, and that is all. >> i did not know much about it until this month. it seemed to me when i learned it that this was a strange , and it seemed to me you

have skills and entrepreneurship and realize this is an idea that someone was willing to invest in from overseas. we have someone saying this is making sense. would you respond to that? how do you make sure you have the type of people in your to make the right judgments? >> thanks for the question. answer it in a couple parts. inreceived more complaints that than any other area.

we receive complaints from both parties. it is bipartisan, and there is probably not a week that goes by when i do not receive complaints with respect to our administration and the programming. there has been a number of issues that i have addressed with my colleagues, and i recall the members concerns were we were able to resolve them. >> maybe the members concerns were not valid. >> we respond to the concerns not by who is the author of the concern but rather by what the facts demand.

that is our principal. eb5 cases have been brought to my attention. we were terminating, and we wanted to make sure the decision was correct because the stakes were high, and we wanted to make sure the decision was well written. the program really requires expert economic analysis and a sophisticated understanding of this is proposals -- of business or postals in the arena those issues raise. came to the agency

i reached out to partners and said they need to become involved. we had discussions with other ongoing.that are in the interim, i have not stood still. i do not stand still when progress is needed. i introduced economists. expanded the pool of adjudicators. i do not think we did right for many years because we did not toip them with the tools address the cases as i think they would most want.

we strive for excellence. expertise to bear. those efforts have been evolving, and we decided to create a new program. it would be personnel and a greater level of expertise. >> just to follow-up. there is a reference that you retaliated against them. the report is that it was not viewed to be a matter of retaliation. do you have any recollection of that? >> i do. there were no facts to support

the allegations. personnel decisions are difficult to make. they are the most taxing aspects. one has to act with the interest of the agency. it is not necessarily disparagement, criticism of any or anythingd, critical, but one has to fit the needs of the agency with the talent of the people. my commitment is to the laws we are sworn to uphold. >> think you.

i just have one question. we are deeply concerned about le.ality -- mora what will you do if you are andirmed to improve morale, what steps would you take to bring more cohesion to the group? >> thank you. i have been honored to work with of immigrationen services and the department of homeland security. we have an incredibly talented workforce deeply committed to the mission of the department.

it would be my responsibility to insure our workforce has the tools to perform the work at the level of excellence to which they aspire, that a feel fully engaged, that they feel fully supported, that they are trained, that they are provided with transparent processes. i would engage this committee in focusing to ensure the morale of each department is as high as it should the when one considers the talent of the people and the nobility of the mission. >> when we talk about the tools,

we know what can a fact -- can morale is the tools. what additional tools do you see to the work of the department of homeland security? experience.aw on my onpent a great deal of focus the well-being of our workforce. the workforce has asked for more training. immigration law and policy is ever evolving. new challenges arise, and they have asked for more training, and we have delivered.

growth andsked for professional development. we have issued programs. managers have asked for training on how to lead people. we pick managers who are experts on the subject matter but not necessarily trained on how to -- the best in people and how to promote successes. those are some examples of tools the workforce deserves. final point. disparaged the appearance of your brothers,

some might suggest they are better looking than you are. >> they have not gone through three confirmation hearings. >> you may have lost some of your hair. you have not lost your sense of humor. thanks for coming. we are glad you are here. >> i take the remarks too hard because she always talks about me being ugly. thanks for being here. i appreciate your willingness to .erve we are in a situation where janet napolitano has stepped awn, so there will be

leadership void. if confirmed, how will you work with congress to make sure the is moving forward, even though there are going to be so many positions of leadership missing from the department? >> take q4 the question. thank you for the question. if i am confirmed, i would work to make suremittee arepresident's nominees completed successfully as swiftly as possible. in the interim i could say we to ensurendous talent the mission is accomplished

successfully until the vacancies are filled. >> 40% of the folks here improperly are because of visa overstays. it is a big problem. is this an issue of manpower, inadequate focus, resources? seems to me 40% is over the top. why is it? >> your question is a very important one. the department of homeland security's made great strides to

address overstays. they have significantly improved in the battle to combat visa overstays. what i have done is insured immigration reaches out to your office and informs you in great need tell of the strides they have made -- great t tell the strides they have made. >> i think the immigration bill went a long way, and i hope the becausell take that up it is important to the country. montana is home to seven reservations.

worked tot i have make sure we have a strong relationship. do you have any experience working with tribal leaders? >> i do. i worked to address some of the challenges they had with california. with respect to certain civil matters. legal issues involving gaming. with tribald leaders, and i took great ride in the relationship i was able to achieve with them.

i would carry that teamwork approach to my duties. >> i appreciate that. i may have more questions. i appreciate your allowing me to ask questions. we need people who can carry out this task because it is an important one. we will get you back to work. >> it is an honor. >> i asked you earlier to give us eb5 101. from my understanding it was created in 1992. actually it was created in 1990.

i think the problem was modified. added a pilot program to encourage investments through regional centers. much in recall hearing 1992. i had just become governor. when i hear designated regional i liken it to supply zones. talk to me about regional centers and how they work and give us aollect funds

little bit of discussion. pilotional program is a row graham. row graham. i believe it was reauthorized. in 2012 the word pilot was .enewed it was sponsored by our colleagues about a year ago. >> the regional center is an area of economic act committee in which commercial enterprises which developed into

foreign investment and jobs can be created. the popularity of the program overncreased exponentially the years. >> does it have anything to do with the fact that we are in the worst recession since the great depression? outside reports have the program has grown exponentially because capital has been difficult to raise. great deal of interest in other countries to immigrate to the united states.

they find the program to be a valuable means to do so. >> and they have business ideas, and we are looking for someone to invest rather than to compete .ith folks from other countries is that close to correct? >> it is, specifically that individuals with the requisite depending onital, whether it is acute unemployment or otherwise. they will invest in a regional center, and they will have .ermanent residence status

why the regional center has as well asentially other economic factors, when an investment is in a regional , job creation can be onlyted to include not direct job creation but indirect. jobs that are created as a result of the enterprise. suppliers would be a good example. if jobs are created that are to the regional center, that is attributable to counts invest in it and

-- investment and counts to the requirement. models to assess come intotuation play. i would not know how to adjudicate them. they are complex. brought thewe have expertise to bear. there is one point i would like to make. challenges tomes integrity. we have seen cases where individuals have sought to make misrepresentations to avail forselves of a program

.hich they are not qualified >> what do you do about that kind of fraud? >> we have done a great deal. highest high aridity. -- our highest priority.

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system.er mist we take our obligations very seriously, mr. chairman, and we are working very hard. we announced that we formed an external safety and reliability review board. there are two navy admirals on that board as well as people, one gentleman from the ntsb, another person who comes with significant airline maintenance background. we take all of these things, we consider them very important and we are working to improve. already,eyond my time but i was fascinated by your opening statement. it could not have been more than a minute and a half and they had no content whatsoever. answer thatyou to

or pass judgment on it, but i was stunned. everyone else was talking substance and you were walking away from things was my impression. senator thune? >> sorry. i would like to direct this to be admiral. could you explain to the committee how the coast guard coordinates with industry and with enforcement agencies in other countries to enforce vessel safety regulations? >> yes, ranking member. the way the oversight of a foreign flagged vessel works is that the crew, the owner/operator are responsible primarily for ensuring the vessel complies with all the international requirements. that is sort of the first run of the safety net. the next rung is the flag state, which is the flag the vessel flies, be it bahamas,

panama, malta. requirementte has a to ensure that vessels that fly their flag comply with this. classxt rung is the society to perform an oversight function for insurance purposes. the last rung is the co-scored which is control services. when a foreign flagged vessel comes to the u.s., we enforce port the u.s. laws and international laws on that vess el. there is an international set of requirements, each flag has their own set of requirements, class society has rules that need to be amended. and then here in the u.s. or omes in, vessel c we conduct oversight. >> just be specific, it is accurate to say that even if the itsel is foreign flagged,

is responsible for complying with all relevant u.s. safety standards? >> yes, sir. the vessel is required to comply with international standards and likewise, they are required to comply with the u.s. standards that are in addition on cruise ships. know thehill, as you coast guard last week issued its final report on the 2010 carnival "splendor" incident involving the complete loss of power. you talked about some of the steps that carnival is taking proactively to correspond to some of the recommendations made in that report. i am wondering if there are recommendations that were made that carnival disagrees with. senator.nking, no, i think we agree with their recommendations. most of the recommendations that the coast guard came up with we

had already implemented. we had our own fire safety experts to came in. we had four or five independent experts we hired who worked at the same time as the coast guard. they notice the same things. we went right ahead and implemented them. and basically, as i mentioned before, those things were very helpful. they were effective in putting out the fire on "the triumph." mr. rosen you serve on the panel experts that make safety recommendations to the industry. can you tell me what major recommendations you have made recently and what the reaction has been of the cruise lines? >> yes, sir. look after the operational safety review that was going on at a number of recommendations that we believe would go a long way to raise the bar of safety within the industry, and what we did was make these recommendations back

to the industry and they questioned a few of them, but immediately said, this is the right thing to do. and i found, having had experience in making recommendations to industries be on the cruise industry, rail, aviation, highway, pipeline that many times when i made recommendations it took a while for those industries to act or to finally implement what we have asked. this one was done very quickly. the 10 policies which i submitted my testimony ultimately were put forth to the imo, and they, too, had been accepted for implementation. so i was, and along with my colleagues at the independent panel of experts, we were

impressed with the expeditious manner in which the industry accepted our advice and adopted the policies. >> we have other members who want to ask questions, so my time is expired. so i'll pass and allow them to do so. thanks. >> you gave an exercise and. -- an extra second. >> senator? > >> i have a question for the admiral. let me say how grateful we all are to you and your colleagues in the united states coast guard for your service in providing a first responder service to ensure that americans at sea enjoy the same level of safety and security that they do on land. as we have heard today and in previous hearings, the coast guard plays a critical role in the safety and security of cruiseship passengers from ensuring the crew ships that mak u.s. areof call in the

in compliance with environmental regulations to responding to accidents. i know you have 11 statutory missions and you're having to balance, as all federal agencies are, all of those missions under the constraints of the sequester. so my question is -- can you speak to the resource constraints that you have in terms of your emergency response capability and also your inspection regime? you, senator. we believe, we conduct our marine safety missions risk- based, so we put the most resources we have to those vessels that pose the greatest risk. we do believe we have the resources at present that we need to continue to conduct our oversight of what other flags are doing, what the class societies are doing as part of our control as well as with our vessels. >> can you divide your answer to

the emergency response side as well as the inspection regime? you believe you have the resources on both sides of the equation? >> the commandant has gone on record as saying there is great concern with the age and the numbers of some of our fleet. so i obviously agree with everything our commandant has said, sir. >> of course you do. i have a question for mr. goldstein. we have heard today about the so-called passengers bill of rights. it is important first step. bills of rights are generally enforceable third there is an accountability mechanism. i am wondering if you can articulate what kinds of metrics you are going to be putting forward to hold yourself accountable to consumers and to the committee, to the coast guard, to all of the various constituencies to which you are responsible? i think it is important first step to articulate what you want to congress on behalf of

passengers, but we sort of need to know how you are going to measure your success and hold ourselves accountable collectively. >> thank you, senator. the first thing i would say, because the question was raised about this earlier on, to the extent there was a question as to what is the relationship contract andicket the bill of rights, we would not as an industry have agreed to issue the passenger bill of rights if we did not expect that it would fly in all the relevant situations the 10 points call fo r. we wanted to be fast in getting it out. and we did not want to wait until however many cruise lines to choose to do this would go through what ever process they might need to go through to harmonize the passenger ticket contract with the bill of rights. i am aware that for a good number of cruise lines they are now in the process of trying to eliminate any perceived inconsistencies. it is supposed to apply. it creates a contractual rights between the customers and the

cruise lines on which they can take legal action if they feel they have been denied any of those rights. >> in plain language and upfront in a large font -- it is a serious question. requireder font is for the purpose. in the case of all 26 cruise lines on their websites, adjacent to the passenger ticket contract so that the two are there side-by-side, the 10 are stated publicly at all times. it is a good question about the metrics. the main metric i would say is do the passengers actually have the rights and are they able to exercise the right to take action? are they actually able to receive the refund that are meant to be automatically due them under the passenger bill of rights? in the past, they would've only had the remedy of suing under the passenger-ticket contract.

is there room relief involved as incidents occur? as i mentioned in respect to grantor of the seas and the fire there, our goal is to go beyond the government regulation so that no one would seek action. >> anything to add, mr kale? >> senator? >> do you have anything to add? i have nine seconds. i yield back. thank you very much. [inaudable] make a comment in relation to the last question? i guess in my written testimony i go in detail with regard to either inconsistencies or problems i am not going to take time to do that. i want to point out two things -- the bill of rights says you have a right to a refund.

those refunds or onboard credits. i do not think an onboard credit is a refund. it does not say how refunds or onboard credits are computed. there is no way in which they can be audited. finally, the passenger bill of rights states that it is obligatory on all members. and if they do not do it, they cannot be members of clia. when i went your websites last week, i went to 26 cruise lines websites. i've found that 13 of them do not have obviously displayed anywhere on their website to the passenger bill of rights. i could not find it. so 50% of the members of clia are out of compliance with the bill of rights which is obligatory for membership in the association. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. i apologize. i was in a meeting upstairs with veterans folks. let me, i want to follow that up to the industry folks and maybe mr. goldstein or whoever would

like to answer this. up for the follow members to ensure that they are adhering to the bill of rights? how do you process that? i do not know who would like to answer that. either one. >> i want to clarify -- by members. clia's members. >> if you adhere to the bill of rights, how does that work? >> every ceo of a member line needed to attest that the bill of rights was in effect, that it was displayed on all 26 websites. and it is a condition of membership now. so if we are found to be out of keeping, out of compliance with the passenger bill of rights we would have to relinquish our membership in the organization. >> your, the bill of rights you have put into place in the last months, is eight

that a fair statement? do you think in order to understand its effectiveness or its use by by the different cruise lines, how much time do you think you need? from alaska's perspective, you are in a season now. the florida season starts later. so how would you measure your success? when would you be able to measure your success? >> sure. so while fully admitting that there have been more incidents in the cruise industry than any of us would like to have seen, they are rare as a matter of history. it has been only two months almost to the day since the passenger bill of rights went into effect. so it will take, i do not know, i am making up the number one or two years probably to see exactly what that means in practice. and hopefully it will show that the passengers are well protected. >> how many -- from alaska's

perspective we had 2.5 or so million cruise passenger visits, a proximally 65% were port of ca ll to u.s. p orts. direct expenditure and our economy is $1 billion. a lot of impact to our state. not like hawaii or florida but alot. tell me in the overall industry of u.s. port touch how many visits does the industry have or how many passengers every year would they have? how big is it. either one could asnwer. nswer. >> worldwide there will be 21 million cruise is this year. north americans will take 11 or 12 million. the great majority of those plus some taken by others will occur in and out of u.s. ports.

the numbers of cruisers being taken in and out of the u.s. is somewhere in the 10 to 12 million person range. i was trying to grab the report and look through it. like you, i am having to put my eyeglasses on because i am looking at the data points. if i read this right, the fbi report and it talks january 1, 2011, cruise line incident reporting statistics reported. the numberi is 655. i guess, i do not know what the total incident numbers are, there are three or four different charts. let me put that aside for a second. we don't, and i am sure you are of the same view, no incidences great. that is the goal, right?

is that a fair statement? >> that is a fair statement. >> in proportion to other industries when i look at the millions of passengers and the incidents, no incident is a good incident. in comparison, it is a small number. am i missing that? there are lots of other data points in here. i am quickly grabbing what i was able to pull out of this report. >> we have not had a lot of time, but we've, of course, provided in our sponsors -- the chairman wrote letters to three cruise lines about 2.5 months ago. andnswered late in may provided a good amount of data as i am sure the other cruise companies, the other two cruise companies did as well. as we move forward, and as we begin to report out as of august 1 on our website all allegations irrespective of whether cases have been opened or closed and some of the issues that have been prevalent up

until now, we will be able to compare to the uniform crime reporting that applies nationally -- there will be for the first time the ability to compare on an apples to apples basis what the primates were for the categories as to what happens on land. we are confident that the confirmation --the comparison will be good because crime is rare on our ships. i know in answer -- alaska you guys are called on by the coast guard to assist in situations. is that just in alaska incident type of situation or maybe both of you can respond to that? >> thanks, senator. honored tradition that in the maritime industry we all respond respond to help another bustle in need. -- vessel in need. in the coast guard will often call on us. since march, the coast guard

called on carnival ships at least three times to assist in distressed vessels. two times there were relatively small vessels. we have to take the people on board our ships to assist the coast guard. the last time was to assist, to stand by for another cruise ship was in distress. so we do appreciate the coast guard helping so much and we try to return the same thing. >> thank you very much. i think the chairman for the opportunity. -- i thank the chairman. >> in comparing the cruise safety act what was initially proposed and what was passed, there were two crime categories that were dropped off. i think it is dangerous for them to be left off. simple assault. and thefts below $10,000. thomas dickerson in new york suggested in a lecture he gave that he felt the issue of theft

was a serious problem, because it basically gives permission for those kinds of crimes to go on. i think the other issue and i am not too sure what is going to be reported, but i do not want to get into rapes. >> i would hate to interrupt you. my time is expired. you are saying because it is not reporting that -- the understanding i have is that a crime of value of less than $10,000 is known that it will not be prosecuted and it does not get reported. sure how they are handled, but it does not go to be fbi. i guess it is handled internally if it is handled. >> i do not know if industry folks will respond. >> maybe they will comment. the day that -- the comprehensive data we have was

2008, and what that demonstrated is, in an testimony, found that 18% of the victims of sexual assault on cruise ships are children. i don't want to get tied up into rapes and the incidents. my concern is that when family bring their children on a cruise and they are told it is a safe vacation, i think any number of children who are being victimized is on acceptable. we have two children, an 11- year-old and a 12 world, both of whom, one was sexually assaulted and the other was groped on cruise ships within the past four to six weeks. i do not care about the total numbers. i care about those young children living with that for the rest of their lives.

>> thank you. with respect to the latter comment, obviously none of us accept anything of that sort and we all want to work together to prevent any allegations are crimes of that nature from taking place. with regard to crime reporting, since 1996, it has been a legal u.s.rements for us in the to report all felonies. that remains in place irrespective of the categories or what have you. so we report thefts of $1000 or more to the fbi. it does not matter that they did not addrewsss that. in that direction, in terms of categories of crime, we report much more to the fbi than is required. the cbssa is written with respect to ships going in and out of the united states.

of august 1,e as we will report all allegations of crime wherever they may occur on any of our ships anywhere in the world to any citizen of any country, not restricted to the u.s. >> thank you for your patience. >> senator blumenthal? >> thank you for this hearing, mr. chairman. thank you to the members of the panel who are here today. all of you have an expertise and knowledge in this area that is very valuable to this committee. and i want to thank mr. cahill and mr. goldstein for being here. i know this is not one of the great treats or glamorous occasions of your professional lives. so we have tough questions, which we have an obligation to ask in my view because the information coming to me, i think too many of us is that there is inadequate protection

for travelers on cruise ships. the issues and problems may be more exceptional than the rule, ubbut my impression is that consumers and travelers deserve to know better what the rights and protections are and in some cases, with many cruise ship lines, they are more illusory than real. that is why became a cosponsor of senator rockefeller's bill ruise passenger protection act, which would address many of the concerns in the areas of enforceability and disclosure, transparency, accountability. for example, professor klein mentioned and i think it is true that the bill of rights that essentiallyued are

unenforceable as a matter of contractual law. correct me if i'm wrong, mr. chailahill. those guarantees, everyone of them them that you regard as a contractual right of a cruise ship traveler. >> senator, yes, we do. we would never have published it on our website as a list of passenger rights unless we intended it to be enforceable. i have been advised by our counsel that it is in fact enforceable. now we're in the process of going through and changing our contract so that it corresponds to the passenger bill of rights. >> so you would not contest jurisdiction in any united states district court or oppose provisions that would grant jurisdiction in district courts of the passengers choosing? >> i am not a lawyer, senator. but we would not contest of the bill of rights. in fact -- >> i am asking about the forum

where it is enforced. because our right without a forum, without a court, without an enforcer is the least sorry. -- illusory. i would be more than happy to give you the benefit of consulting with your attorney before you answer. i am not trying to put you on the spot here. basically suggest, and you can answer a greater length in writing, that you can do consumers and travelers a great service by allowing them to take action as a matter of contract against you in the forum of their choosing. would you agree to do so? >> i think it is pretty normal practice for a company to specify the forum in which you can be sued. in our case it is miami. >> it may be the normal practice in your industry but not necessarily in all industries. let's move on, because i have a number of other points to make about the the reality of these

rights. let's talk for example about clia right three. it talks about medical attention. in fact, it guarantees and i am professional time emergency medical attention as needed until short side medical care becomes available." do your lines charge for that medical care, are passengers charged? thank you, senator. in the normal course, there are charges for using the medical center. if there are incidents and accidents, depending on what the situation is, we may waive charges. >> you may waive, but there are fees and charges? >> which are normally subjected to insurance. >> with respect to your line, mr. cahill. >> senator, it would be the

same. carnival'scite from ticket language, and i am quoting -- " carnival in arranging for service is called for by a physician or nurse does so only as a convenience for the guest. guest agrees that carnival assumes no responsibility, does not guarantee performance, and in no event shall be liable for any negligent or intentional acts of omission, loss, damage, injury, or delay to guests. guests use the services of all independent contractors at the sole risk of the guest." my time is coming to an end, but would you agree with me that in effect your cruise lines are disclaiming any and all legal responsibility for the quality of care provided? >> senator, we have an obligation to research and hire

qualified physicians. we are not a hospital but we are required to make sure that the hir areesw we properly trained. we are legally liable to do that. >> mr. goldstein? >> we are in the same position. >> so you would not dispute legal liability for medical malpractice by one of those doctors performing services during one of your trips? >> my understanding is that if a doctor to the point that mr. cahill was making, if we make a if we choose somebody unqualified to provide that service, we are liable for to a lawsuit for failure to do so. >> apart from the credentials, you disclaim any responsibility. of limits of your acceptance liability is if that person has

a diploma or a credential, that is where your liability ends. >> the appropriate diploma or credential, yes. >> same with you? >> yes, sir. >> my time is expired. i apologize for running over and i will follow-up in the second round of inquiry. real quicklyntion that this issue of liability was the florida by state supreme court and by the u.s. supreme court. it was the case -- carnival corporation versus darcy car lisle in 2007. the opinion in that case was that they are not liable for the behavior of a physician conducting malpractice on one of their cruise ships. >> i'll absorb that as best i can.

senator? do you want me to make a speech welcoming you once again to the committee? >> i feel welcome. i'm glad you have introduced legislation in this area. one of the first things i do would be to ask to be added as a cosponsor to your legislation. >> my pleasure. >> this hearing has been highly illuminating. may i ask you, admiral. i know there has been some reference to this accident off the coast of louisiana. and there is right now from the coast guard an update saying that there is significant risk of losing the blowout preventer. could you tell us what are the consequences of losing the blowout preventer in a situation like this? what would the impact be upon the gulf of mexico? >> thank you, senator.

from what i understand, the hercules 265, which is the, an oil rig that was drilling 40 miles off louisiana coast suffered a well kickback. gas came up. and there was an explosion last night. as a rsesult of that explosion and fire, the cantilever, the floor on which the derrick was has collapsed here the crew was interviewed before evacuated. everyone evacuated safely. they said they actuated the blow out preventer. but for what ever reason it seems like it did not work. i do not know why that might have happened or whether the

rams, which are basically two hydraulic presses that squeeze together, i do not know whether they actuated or whether they did not, sir. if there is no blowout be anter, then there might number of options that i know the unified command is looking at. i do not whether cpapapping woud be a potential. due to the sand that might be in the formation, it might plug itself. there are a number of different things that could happen. we are working with the bureau of safety and environmental enforcement and the unified command is looking at what those potential options are and what might be. i cannot speculate, sir. >> is there a chance that the rig could sink if they cannot get close enough to fight the fire? >> there is a chance that if we cannot fight the fire and it

continues to burn that there will be metal fatigue and that will in fact the vessels. >> and what would that mean for the coast guard or for the industry in terms of c apping tghhe well? >> i do not know specifically on what that would do. i think a lot would depend upon what happens with the rig and how it would end up if it does have a failure, how it would end up failing. i do not know the pressures of the formation or anything else. so i really cannot speculate, senator. >> but it could take upwards of wellys to have a relief that is actually drilled if this in sinks, if there is an ability to deal with it? >> senator, i believe the coast guard and bessie are issuing a joint order to start the process of drilling a relief well.

i am not sure whether there are other contingencies, but i think they are starting to get that process in place should that happen. >> there was another event two weeks ago where there was loss of well controlled, and this is just the second incident in two weeks. again, it is just something that we have to learn, that when we do not put in the proper policies, that they become inevitable and they recur. we're seeing it twice in two weeks. >> as you are aware, the coast guard has responsibility for the safety systems on board that drilling unit. >we share. >> thank you for your service and thank you for the coast guard's work in this incident. mr. chairman, for the past three

congresses i have introduced the travis international bill of rights and the house of representatives. this relates to a similar but not identical issue that we are talking about which is a consumer who purchases international vacation travel online. would require travel website operators to prominently post information regarding the health and safety conditions at overseas travel destinations, such as the availability of lifeguards, medical personnel, as well as information from the department of state on crime statistics and travel warnings related to their destination. so this would relate to passengers on ships that disembark when they go into these vacation destinations. so i will tell you why. --aeen webster, a contest constituent of mine. she educated me about the deadly consequences that can result from lower safety standards and

medical response capabilities at some overseas travel destinations. her son died at a resort in mexico when he did not receive the medical treatment that may have been able to save his life. so i'm landing on introducing that legislation in the senate as well, because my having easy access to health and safety information, americans can actually make more informed decisions about where to travel and where to stay when they are overseas. number recently heard a of serious incidents that compromise the safety of cruise ship passengers, including serious mechanical failures that left thousands of passengers stranded for days, navigational mistakes that led to passenger deaths, violent crimes that were committed on board, but the same thing happens when passengers disembark in individual countries. and information as well should be made available. so dr. klein what to think

about that, in terms of that next step in giving protection to consumers? >> i very much agree with the need for that for international travelers but also for cruise passengers. for example, there are cases, not frequent but there are enough of people going on short excursions and being robbed and dying. in my testimony i gave a list of the number of deaths on shore for people love taken a cruise. as long as your legislation would extend to including what happens ashore to cruise passengers, not just people who have flown to stay in that location, i think it would be a positive move. >> mr. cahill, what would you think about giving that information to passengers and crew ships or to anyone going into a country? >> senator, we try to do that now when we have concerns about -- we have a security group. we review ports before we go.

we have actually canceled calls in a number of ports, we stopped going when we had concerns. our security team reviews for, is the potential of terrorism in a particular part of the world? is their civil unrest. we also look at local crime. we work with local authorities. and we will give notices to our guests. to some extent, it is common sense, just like when i am home. there are certain parts of town you may not want to go to at night. we will tell the same things to our guests there. we try and do that today, senator. >> would you support requirements that travel website operators who sell cruise vacations must post this information for consumers shopping for a cruise so they can understand what the dangers, what the health conditions might be in these individual ports?

would you support that being posted on the website? >> i think i would have to look at it first, senator. >> mr. goldstein, what would you think about that? >> it sounds like that is something the industry would be open to dialogue about. we want our guests to be informed he. ou companies have very experienced peopler. our head of safety was a very senior long-term ranking official at fbi. so we are constantly evaluating. an eminently sensible idea. i want to stress that things change all the time. so for example, with the recent unrest in turkey, cruise ships are obviously going in and out of turkey. land state vacation or sick going in and out of turkey.

we are monitoring that situation hour by hour sure it is still ok for the ships to go there? it is a very important subject for us. >> i appreciate that. it turns out that maureen webster in talking about her son basically learned as i learned that all of this information was knowable, but she learned so much about where her son was going after the fact that if there had been a conversation before hand it might've prevented him ever going there. so that was a destination in mexico, but it could've been in many other countries. so i would like to work with you on that just so that information is made public. >> thank you very much. that was a substantial input. of 10 minutes and 13 seconds. >> welcome to the committee. >> but of course, very interesting. >> i was playing under american league rules. i am in the national league. designated hitter.

all different roles over here. >> having served with the senator from massachusetts in the house, i know there is a pent-up demand for talking for long periods of time when you get to the senate. when you move from the one minute role, -- one minute rule. it may be in the grapefruit league. >> let me read something controversial. isimpression of this hearing that there is a bit of a kabuki dance. my mind is not neutral on this. come from a state where we have a lot of coal mines. and although it may be very odd to compare coal mines to crew ships, the psychology focused within the management of coal

we're talking about here seems to be somewhat parallel. there is danger every day in the coal mines. people understand that, but since coal mines like crew ships are located beyond the borders of three miles, nobody really knows what is going on. there is no 9/11 reporting system. so you have to depend on whatever the rules are of management on the cruise ship. mines, that can be very deadly. when we do have accidents, they sort of stop the world, at least the coal mining part of the world and parts of the congress. and republicans, and democrats come together and they pass mine safety legislation because there is a shock factor where in fact there should not have been

because the elements leading up to that were there all the time. for those of us who have dealth coal operators in particular. i have a feeling that those who operate here are showing the good side, emphasizing how in frequent these matters are. i think i've heard mention a couple of times the passengers but not very much. think there are some people here who want to see good done. that is the purpose of an oversight committee. we take that extremely seriously. rosenkirn, i will just highlight my statement. the former chairman of the national transportation safety

board. yes, you are the clia appointed panel experts. but you see that does not make you a free actor. part of theou a system. you can answer at the proper time. >> thank you, -- >> at the proper time. >> i'm sorry. >> i want to read to you the i'vecessor, jim hall, who known for 30 years and who had some part of in fact saving my life at one point in tennessee. which doesn't bias me towards him because this is a different subject. but this is what he had to say and i did not see this until last night, until we just got it last night. as you know, he was head of ntsb from 1994 to 2001. he made some comments about the "costa concordia" -=-

the cruise industry. the imo and other cruise industries are paper tigers that have not been able to get "bad actors" out of the industry. he says the maritime industry is that has never been broken as the aviation industry was." you see evidence of that in the "costa concordia" accident. we had a lot of trouble with getting aviation to take seriously the problems of the amount of sleep their pilots got, and the propeller people who had to travel all over the country and get hardly any sleep as opposed to those who flew international flights pretty much on automatic control, and made a lot more money. "though crew ships

may seem and feel american, they the in countries like bahamas and operate outside of reasonable safety standards." i think the discussion earlier, which i felt like i disagreed with, and that is if -- the safety standards applied to matter where you were. i think that is not true. american standards of safety apply within the three miles. outside of that, it is your world, your ballgame. and he said that people who book cruises should be aware of all of this. operating outside of reasonable safety standards and he says the industry has been an outlaw industry. those are strong words from a moderate southern person. who i greatly. respect. that introduces the kind of controversy that i want in this hearing.

you, on the one hand and on the -- and him on the other hand. what they say, i expect. what you say, i do not expect, except as i understand not breaking the culture. on jim are your comments hall's statement? >> i, too, along with you respect the former chairman. he was an excellent head of this board that i had the privilege to chair for 6.5 years. let me put a little perspective, and i think you will appreciate this, sir, because of being chairman of this oversight committee goes across almost of transportation. when i served and got confirmed by this committee in march 2003, 2009,i left in august,

000 people died on our nation's highways. 36 million accidents. 18 million injuries. during that same period 210 commercial airline accidents resulting in 10 fatal accidents for 138. fatalities includingl, without the 180 people that committed suicide during that 6.5 years, 317 died in operational fatalities. in that same period, in the area, according to the authoritative statistician that covers this industry, 18 people died, three of which were passengers and 3 were crew. none of those are acceptable fatalities, but i am asking for

perspective to understand where we need to be really looking to raise the bar of safety, not just in our cruise ship area, but clearly in others as well. >> you do this committee and injustice and one which offends me, because we do that. >> i am quite aware of it. >> you do that on a constant basis. of comparison between the number of deaths in one industry as compared to the number of deaths in another industry. coal industrythe might look quite good. that is not my view generally of the coal industry. in fact, i worked it out so they had to, any time they had an accident of any sort they would have to post on the sec website. and i did the same with since we do some cybersecurity with hacking. that now is law.

you have to post it on the website. that is aimed at the shareholder, not the passenger. think we are talking past each other. i am not sure we are accomplishing here. i think it sets up who is on what side of which, and therefore, how can you measure what they say? but it has not been as successful from my point of view a hearing as i would like. and i will leave it there and turned to senator blumenthal. >> man make a comment? -- may i make a comment? >> we had a variation of this conversation at the last hearing and i had asserted that i think one of the problems with the industry is an issue of they listen to the insiders, but they do not listen to the outsiders. and anybody who is not part of

the industry you has an opinion is basically ignored, somehow marginalized. and i recall to senator rockefeller's comments that the ceo of clia was suggested that perhaps clia should have a conversation with me. i do not take this personally. the ceo says, we will be talking to him because he may have some valuable insight. that's 16 months ago and i received no call. i'm not hurt. this is not an ego, but i think it reflects that if you are not one of us you have nothing to offer to us that can help us. >> point taken. actually, senator, -- >> with apologies, i will have to leave to preside. >> can you put in one final question? >> go ahead. i will follow. >> to preside over the senate? what a miserable task.

[laughter] >> no comment. goldstein, we mr. were talking a little bit earlier about limits on liability, limits on where remedies can be enforced. limits, i've looked andread carefully at clia, i do not see any indication of what those limits on liability are. wouldn't you agree? >> i'm sorry. i did not follow. >> well, for example, the limits on what standards are enforced, when they guarantee that medical care would be provided, nowhere is there any indication that fees are going to be charged. is that correct? >> the passenger bill of rights does not comment on that aspect

of the requirement to provide the necessary medical care. >> and there is no indication as to the limits on what passengers can seek by way of recourse if there is negligence in the provision of medical care? do you simply guarantee that the doctor has a diploma. you do not guarantee the doctor will provide adequate medical care. is that correct? >> yes, but -- >> and there is no indication of that limitation under obligation. >> that is correct. >> wouldn't it be clearer and more transparent if as to that right and, by the way, many other rights, and i am going to be following with the chairman's permission with some more detailed questions in writing, not only about what you guarantee but what others do as well because you may be the leaders in the industry, you may be the good guys.

but wouldn't it be preferable if more of those limits, more of the nontransparent restrictions or fees or charges were provided in clia instead of in the fine print of contractual disclaimers of obligation? >> it may be, senator. able, we wanted to be to issue a passenger bill of rights faster rather than slower. >> the passenger bill of rights can be misleading. very bluntly, it can do more harm than good. it seems to guarantee a right that in fact is illusory. >> i can tell you that we do not believe, nor do our counsel believe that any of those rights are illusory. we believe it has gone beyond the standard ticket contract over time in meaningful ways. >> that may be part of the problem, that the standard ticket contract limits your

obligations, and clia seems to expand them. but when the rubber meets the road, you go back to the contract and insist on what i'm calling the fine print in the effect limitsine the rights of the passenger. when i say "you," i am not necessarily talking about your line. i am talking about you, other li nes as well. i am not here to sort of cross examine you or put you on the spot. this is not about your line or mr. cahill's. it is really about the industry. >> i believe mr. cahill noted this in passing earlier. for at least a good number of cruise lines, i cannot say for the whole industry, but for a good number, there is a process in place where the ticket

contract is being modified and harmonized to accord with the intent of the passenger bill of rights so that this dilemma does not exist. >> that is a welcome development. i hope it will be accelerated by enhanced and enlarged proposed legislation like the chairman's, which senator markey and i have joined, and that the good guys in the industries will join in educating us as to how the potential abuses can be whole industry made more transparent and accountable. and i apologize, mr. chairman, for taking more than three minutes here. and to my colleague, thank you for letting me have this additional time. and really appreciate all of you being here. >> thank you, senator. senator? >> senator blumenthal, it is ok

because you get to preside. i do not have to. that is a plus. know, i was listening to the chairman's comment. all due respect, i think it is important to know the data comparison. i think that is what you are trying to do, not to question the committees -- we have done a lot on airlines, i tell you that. we clamped down. i will give you a whole different data point that i want to make sure is part of the record i want to submit. crime rate calculations for the three top cruise ship industry folks which accumulate 90% of the traffic. when you take rates like assault and serious bodily injury, 3.8% per 100,000, and when you compared to cities -- and i was a mayor so i can say this -- it is 27.1 per 100,000. nine times worse in a city.

again, we believe as a former mayor, zero is the goal. no one questions that. am i correct? that is the target. when i look at others and the horrendous crime of rape on cruise ships, the 5.9 per 100,000, but when you compare it again around 27%. 100,00assaults, 8.7 per 0. cities. 100,000 in data is data. is there any data -- i just took a ferry from the cape over to cape cod, over to martha's vineyard. i did not get any bill of rights. i did not get a ticket. i got a stub.

it did not tell me anything of my rights. there have been incidences on ferries. crashes. disabled. i can go through the list. i am an east coaster. southeast,e in the run by the state of alaska. but i am not familiar with that $8.00, went and paid my that i got a long explanation of the issues. i think there are some differences. we have folks like ocean ridges that are on your ships when you come into our waters to make sure you provide environmental safety standards required for it would have on requirements of waste disposal which is unique to our state. at the same time, there is a balance. in all the respect, i