of aristocracy in this great democracy, why does this matter? and i think for dolley madison what she's offered suss a model of governance that stresses civility and empathy. she's modeling this for us. she's not going to win. we need examples and role models and her way of conducting politics, stressing building bridges and not bunkers is a model we can use for the future. >> i think she's very important as katherine says for bringing

those models but also for bringing women into the political mix at a very early time period. and her conciliation or her abilities to bring people together. wouldn't it be nice if we had her back in washington now. >> we only skimmed the surface in 90 minutes of 81 entering years of life. if you want to learn more. i thank the white house historical association for their ♪elp in this series. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

♪ >> on c-span tonight, libyan activist discuss. then another chance to watch "first ladies" on the life of dolley madison. >> coming up on the next "washington journal," -- 's tomorrow night, on c-span

encore presentation of "first ladies" -- is not>> campaigning allowed. you cannot do that and you cannot ask for office directly. you have used subtle back channels. women were a good conduit for that. come to spread their gossip and ask their favors. she knows she cannot trust these people. she is not naïve. a lot of them are spreading false information, false gossip, they are misleading and have all of their own agendas. she is aware of the political gain going on and is not a fan. >> the encore presentation continues tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern on c-span. >> nongovernmental organizations in libya are working to rebuild the whole societies after decades of rule by muammar

gadhafi and the civil war. representatives from some of the groups discuss in washington. this is an hour and a half. , everybody.rnoon i am the director from the middle east north africa program you're in this organization. we are pleased to host this event on the role of civil society in libya's transition. our panel today is being live streamed by c-span. i would ask you to silence all cell phones or any other objects that make noise, including small children, if anybody brought any eerie little dogs, whatever. thank you. today, this event is cosponsored by the libya group. this group is organized earlier this year.

build an awareness in libya. the reason why we identify this as an important lead is because libya was a small population and should become an important , not only in north africa, but among arab spring transitional countries in general. the consequences of a earlier in libya are essential. a failed state that could spread instability far beyond its thats. it is a country

will have a major impact on u.s. policy interest in the middle east. viewed ashould be such, both in and and he on. -- and beyond. we witnessed power from the national transitional console. since then, growing political securitydeteriorating situation, and the crisis of confidence in government institutions, has really combined to deal a serious blow to the democratic transition. most recently, the country was rocked by the murder of a human rights advocate. victim of a political assassination in libya since the end of the civil war. to 12s this averages out -- 21 foot ago assassination every 12 days. wassf va -- assassination

followed by a prison break in thehazi, attacks, and resignations of senior libyan lyrical leaders. libya's problems go even deeper, as most of you are aware your it hundreds of armed roots have laid a destabilizing role in libyan politics are notoriously, the general national congress, which it to pass a in a and destabilizing a exclusion law aimed at is of the former gadhafi -- at members of the former gadhafi regime. the crisis of security we have seen playing out has also been accompanied by a crisis of governments. it is widely seen as paralyzed and unresponsive, and delays, most notably, the roadmap to

graphing the constitution, development of the electoral law, the graphing committee, and writing the constitution itself. all ofre real costs to these crises. instability in libya threatens the transition, but also significant instability in north africa. libya has emerged as a key route for the illegals smuggling of arms. mainly aimed at transitioning toward europe. a bright spot in all of this has been the emergence of civil society in libya. estimates vary, as there has been no formal senses of the population in the country. anywhere from several hundred to several thousand organizations have sprung up in the country, starting even before gadhafi's demise with the obliteration of the eastern part of the country. the organizations are involved in a broad array of issues, toironmental concerns,

civic education and discourse, women's right, and promotion of civic and political -- they can and do play a key role andhe liberating demands, then presenting them to the central government. of effectivee government, civil society can play a key role focusing attention on issues which really do matter for the daily lives of libyans. civil society is forced to play a key role in libya's troubled but ongoing democratic -- these organizations face challenges, including a lack of domestic funding for their activities, surprising considering libya's oil wealth but a major concern.

for is an entry point international assistance. fromwant the assistance and ties to the international community. this is one of the best opportunities the international community has to help the old a stable and democratic libya. to have ay fortunate traffic panel with us today to discuss the broader issues of the situation inside libya today. let me start with the gentleman to my left. the founder and president of the citizenship forum for democracy and development in benghazi. has been a long-standing democracy advocate and frequently contributes to international media outlets on the topic of libya. he's the executive director of the political development form from 2004 2010.

from 2006 2 2009, he was the washington program director at the center for study of islam and democracy. the president and cofounder of the new libyan foundation, through incubation centers that serve as office and training .pace it also supports emerging civil society constitution network of approximately 907 organizations, to ensure the principles of inclusiveness and transparency are enshrined in the constitution grafting process. finally, we have joyce joining us, a program officer. she currently serves as a member of the iraq and north africa

programs. from 2010 -- 2012, she worked in iraq. and managing u.s. ip's. she has conducted field research in rwanda and egypt, and has worked in the field for many unity based, nongovernmental organizations. with that, i would like to turn it over to our panel. >> thank you. first of all, i would like to thank the team for giving us this opportunity to speak to activists in civil society environment in the. it goes without saying i have to also think my daughter.

she has been a massive .ncouragement to speak to you about libya is to speak to you about my heart. working for libya has been the story of my life. even when i fled the country after being tortured and kicked out of the university, i sontinued to work with activist to combat the regime and create an opening opportunity for our people in libya. i would like to thank you for the national endowment for they have because been, in the last 10 years, backing us in our work. thank you. to talk to you about the role of this society today,

seemed like a far-fetched possibility two years ago. those who know the situation in libya, we combat the regime for many years. , the ways end suddenly it had, was beyond our imaginations. the fight for freedom in libya started in 1969 area i am a witness of that personally. it manifested in a new forum during february, 2011. many people sacrificed their lives, for the deliberation of libya. even with the turbulent transition we are seeing, i just wanted to share this reflection with you. with regard to the current environment in libya, i will touch base on a few points, then

try to emphasize. the security issue is number one, number two, and number three in the country. we have the armed groups, who are really the defect oh our -- de facto power in our country. we have a nation army in the nate -- in the making. they have not been able to take our -- take charge of the country. attacks on police stations and jailbreaks and other things. in benghazi a loan, over 50 incidents of assassinations, unfortunately. i think you all are aware of it. of thesetrators crimes have not been brought to justice, or we have not yet received any information of who has done these things.

there is a large? of who has and hot -- who is -- there has been a large question mark of who has been behind these things. an unfortunate political eyes nation, which led -- which led to the resignation. two of the most notable leaders , madeya, they seem to be the decision, it is better to .esign then to be kicked out ,lected for the first time minority members, the president. a small minority there in libya. a positive sign libya does recognize it has

equal rights. the over delayed for the community, it went through a lot of hardships and ups and downs. and then it was done, not many people were happy with it but it .as it self a landmark we would see the results of it. now we would be working on the thetion of the committee of but it is a major point in the history of the building of libya. the recognition of the culture and languages, the forum weeks someit really gave people of their god -- even rights.

that is something we cherish and appreciate. come in the aegean sea, two major political blocs. the coalition of the national ,orces, the party for justice linked to the muslim brotherhood. both of them did make very strong statements. that they would be acting as individuals and they would not -- not receive any orders. what we have from the aegean , or only small parties other small parties with one or

two members. the drastic decision was made that they are all independent members and do not have any political allegiance, or any linkage with them and their party. the cleaning up of the aegean sea not started yet, because of the with close nation alone. that is something we are still waiting the committee to implement. it has just started working. we would have to see what would be the result of the government of members who would be considered to be not acceptable according to the law. as for the government, those who are following the news, in one of the best sources of

information for news about libya, you can see the inability of prime minister to govern has been quite clear. there are so many calls for him to step down. his failure to provide even basic services are now considered -- many members of the gnc are calling for the change for the prime minister there. he has been set back also by the designation of some members. the most astounding was the resignation of his first deputy. democrats thatst since thelibya beginning of the revolution. it is the one they give the continuing of the restoration there.

he said he cause of the he isity to share power, resigning because of that. people are increasing skepticism against political parties and i think it is because of the politicspartisan against democracy, and, whoever is a member of the party is a traitor of the country. 40 years of indoctrination cannot be wiped out in one or two years and plus, they have not learned yet how to exist and work with businesses. the consensual culture of democracy has not yet taken live -- taken roots in libya. that is one of the reasons why there is skepticism. there are people feeding the

skepticism. by theeing supported construction. liberal lists and secularist are supported, it goes around and around. it is just hearsay. hearsay and rumors do move the streets sometimes. people are becoming unhappy with the government and the the because of the lack of productivity. we will have seen the members of the gnc were failing to act according to what they expected them to do. trainees,ell them, when they work with me, as we are, we will produce our members.

the verdicts are contrary to our society. have to be with them until they learn to work according to the norms of lyrical work. just to touch base, my major work is that civil society is really the brightest society in libya. as you know, civic activity civic society organizations and the only ngo's that existed were those that were charitable in nature and worked with a regime. and italy. any type of association organization would banish it by death.

any linkage to political parties. associations embedded in distinct structure and carefully monitored, existed in place of independence unions -- labor unions and organizations. since the uprising in benghazi in february, 2011, and new libyan civic arena was to build itself from scratch, from zero. during the revolution, civil society plays an important role in humanitarian relief, and assistance, working with refugees, sustaining efforts to provide basic services such as medical services. we also witness social political activities, media outlets, from one weekly state newspaper, to 100 unique publications in the

city of benghazi. the top of these activities for 24/7. there was no letdown until a downfall of benghazi. the city was buzzing with visitors, activist, media , it was really the olden days of the city of benghazi. when sun -- some of you have seen the benghazi uprising. it clearly shows people were really engaged in whole some work to bring down the date tater. may 2000revolution in myn in which i attended -- ,ork focused on democracy

education, and political development. since then, the center for citizenship forum united close to 40 workshops around the country. we have successfully trained over 1500 participants, and among them are member of the gnc. pencilsered the basic of democracy and compatibility with values. with the end of gaddafi, a regime which started off as a group of people working together informally, began to develop structurally. and sort of -- and soon, organizations were formed. . have to cut short there is also a nice and wonderful example of city --

civil society organizations taking care of all issues. in mingle is women ghazi decided to clean up the situation by bringing back at the traffic lights and giving -- o drivers, [indiscernible] that is one of the examples of creative working. there were also people who took care of cleaning up the mess in the public squares, bringing chairs and flowers so people .ould sit in them. volunteering the evolution of civil society in a short timeframe has empowered the mission. it has led people to see it is not up to the government to do everything. this is a new culture. the people have started to say,

it was done by this sect -- the private sector, not the government. he do have really changed in many ways. in terms of numbers, cso's in benghazi, evan hundred 50. in the cornerstone, more than 50 members of the civil society organizations. talking about benghazi, we show how civil society mobilized and took the life of ambassador chris stevens, who was considered to be a champion of the libyan post. american activist and civilians .like condemned the attack -- a strongering

movement in benghazi, as the counterparts. when they decided it should be cleansed from all military purchase. they are still working on this. -- what does the civil society in libya need? financial and technical resources first and foremost. even though it is a rich country, it has not captured itself on how to support civil society organizations. are stillnal players in need of support in the financial side of civil society in libya. these resources can be funded by the libyan government if it were done in a better way. again with the international bold movement for democracy, and also a network of

inocrats, two major works benghazi -- how to -- working to bring this worse is -- [indiscernible] we are still working on it. him to find that civil society must continue to work. in conclusion, what we can all agree upon is that it's such challenging times, civil society is the key to getting libby's momentum back. it is time to make it a priority again, and take it more seriously so that their work can move to the next level. >> thank you very much.

>> my presentation is going to be relatively short. i have 10 minutes. i would like to give an overview of the situation from the eyes of a citizen on the ground. the has a increase -- there has been an increase in tripoli in the absence of law enforcement or rule of law. people have taken lawn to their own hands. unfortunately, this is something citizens are relying on to maintain the peace. there is an x collation into militias fighting, with firearms every day, in certain areas. people are learning to avoid these areas, and have an

economic breakdown in those areas. there is a prolonged absence of international priority and investors, and it is creating anxiety among citizens who were hoping to see economic growth at this point in time. with the exception of the occasional traffic control, there's a perception of a total void in law-enforcement, and a rule of law. true.s pretty much generally, local people from tripoli make up 20% of the population because it is the economic and political center of libya. there is immigration from other immigration. there are a lot of citizens who live in tripoli. they are not from aaa. this affects the social nine and make.

within civil society, challenges are extremely limited. team, how top a execute on projects. we see a recurring theme is to have ideas of what they want to do. usually large and elaborate, but little experience on how to execute on a project, or create a proposal. 90% of ideas will not be taken into implementation phase for that reason. civil society is effective on the local level. not very affected on a national level. locally the have access to decision-makers. they are present citizens. they carry the voice of the average citizen. they are able to have an impact with local councils. on a national level, you do not see anywhere nearly as effective

. there is a deep distrust of unknown groups and people within civil society, as well as the gmc within civil society. no coronation methods for movement. there are the difficulties that existing governments. expectations can be misaligned. there is a lack of -- there is not a text -- most decision-makers to match the have an office locally. they do not have a staff. there is no official website you can talk to your rivers in the tens. after elections, citizens felt there was a representation process. indeed, air isn't. -- there is not. special interest groups are more effective at impacting decision- makers.

there is a presidents for government and collaboration on an apple -- national level towards policy. there are initiatives like the initiatives in the civil society law. they are not -- they have not created a precedent of adopting such legislation. also, there is a one-year initiative to guarantee that 35% of the constitutional commission is comprised of women. it does not consider that in the making of the electoral law. women do not have a special .nterest group, or arms

it is a matter how organized you are. that was a blow to civil society. wegeneral, the challenge is see the shortsighted vision for what libya can do. despite the resources, and the manpower, and the position, their leadership is not created a vision that citizens can work towards. the culture inherently goes against an institutional mindset. there must be reformed towards building a stable democratic --titutions, and deliver lay and deliver tightly -- deliberately. , a constant state of emergency, because you don't

have the stability. there is no strategy towards communication and public education. one of the things that civil societies are working towards is the promotion of legislation that would guarantee inclusiveness and transparency in the constitution drafting process. one thing that they are looking at positively is the national public. it would engage citizen starting with their rights, starting education on with the constitution is, what representation looks like. take part in can the process. essentially, more supports. also, looking atnaie l requiredo

engage. had you create precedents for civil society to become a legitimate means for impacting decision-makers? >> joyce? >> thank you. it is humbling to be on a panel with all of you. i heard about you long before i met you. i have been grateful to work with you since january. just to throw that out for everyone, the familiar faces i am seeing in the audience, i would like to focus on the organizational capacity outside of civil society. i think that we have heard already that civil society is comprised of a lot of vibrant act ears. there is a culture of a revolutionary spirits. the spirit of volunteerism. you have everyday citizens that are involved in multiple organizations, and excited about contributing positively and

holistically to the transition in libya. finding ways to take ownership of that. i think that finding a way to bring that excitement together, to coalesce around certain issues, to understand the power advocacy, to understand the structures in the decision- making processes that already exist, that will be a challenge. in addition to having this spirit and passion, there are significant gaps in for good -- civil society. just in the daily news we hear about the importance of building security institutions, i think that often we are forgetting that civil society as institution needs to be built as well. that happens on it -- that happens on an organizational level. international community is helping to make huge gains in

that way. we need to re-shift our focus to focus on organizational development. a few general observations about ins, which i have to say those many countries i've worked in, i have never witnessed a more empowered group. a more excited group of activists. young people to women, those that are willing to drop everything they are doing to go .ut and organize a campaign this examinee is to be harnessed and put a positive use. what we saw after the initial end of the revolution was lots of these programs taking place. they may have this return to normalcy. people back in school. ofre was a large number

organizations that were registered. those remained active in met the compliance requirements of the ministry of culture dropped off. that is natural in conflict transitioning countries. i would say for my point of view , at this point, there's a tremendous amount of frustration over the donor strategy of engaging civil society. they heard time and time again that there is a commitment to funding projects. there is a strong commitment to building up the structures that would make them operate more efficiently. financial management, program management, good governance. all of these things. there is a lack in dedicating to that. there is support from that on

different projects. a second observation will be that we have a lot of civil on,ety that are very early and we have seen there is a to been from project to project out of the scope of their mission. that can be a result of the donor strategy. this of woman commitment to make libya better means that an -- this is amight trend. we know this happens. i would highlight engagement with more grassroots organizations.

a lot of feedback that i received on a daily basis, sometimes more, there is a frustration in providing training for workshops, but this missing piece of mentoring and technical reach back following those immediate events. expresseders have this feeling of the international community setting up society to fail when they train on conduct -- content analysis. all things are very important, and there is in the knowledge meant of how important those things are. but there may come to a point of implementation and trying to move those skills.

it means getting out of project cycles, and focusing on long- term strategies. -- it isther parts difficult. , scarce situations resources. better coronation and ensuring that we have geographical representation. lessons learned and make ghazi can be applied elsewhere. is the national institutional level of civil society. it is going to be requiring more

on the regional level that is what is happening right now. there is no national coordination mechanism. if it is happening right now, it is happening through personal connections. i would also say that a key observation is frustration for grassroots shouldn't -- organizations that do not have english and their ability to provide proposals and make pitches to international communities. we have to get more creative in how we work around the language barrier issue. it is easier to go to this one if language is a barrier. figuring out how to engage

everyone if we are building the thoseution, not building easiest to access. either geographically or language. to move forward with a few outline theons that organizational development side of things, we are at a point where training and workshops need to be applied. there needs to be a technical reach back that i was alluding to earlier. the number one issue that i hear --when you get what point of drian how to think more -- i can speak specifically to

the fact that they are not iraq, nato comparisons. have made success in leveraging our investments, and some docities that initial training and mentoring of the libyan facilitators. it is a way to ensure that the information is being shared our tarn a way that is regionally relevant and accessible. things that people can connect to. things that people can understand. can be inreative we figuring out how to leverage our other investments throughout the region, i think the better. i wanted to talk a little bit the civil side in libya.

ways and wen our consider it at this point in geos. on the hugering area is bridge leisure sector. whoe many of those people are engaged in some way with civil society, figuring out how to empower them in a way to expand the definition and expand the engagement to include a much larger cross-section that has also direct access to decision makers are usually influential. to speak to civil society in transition, we have heard about the flurry of registrations that took place with the culture following the revolution. one of the key areas that we -- remains an issue is the legal

framework for governing civil society. it doesn't exist. organizations are doing tremendous work to ensure that the law in its final form is exactly what libya needs. yet, also not having that legal framework creating room for fear. what is a roleng for civil society. for my government perspective, civil society actors not understanding where they have leverage,re can they where do authorities exist? the closer we can get to formalizing a law, clarifying what will civil society actual more there will be a much openness on a national level. civil society activists change right now. they have local connections. there is a culture of mistrust

and fear. i would say that in terms of develop a space to organizations, a few gaps are glaring. financial management and monitoring. good governance, do you have a charter and a mission? a board and executive director? spending,ountable for to making sure you are in compliance with the ministry of culture? if we are committed to building the institution of civil society, requires indymac -- the requires a direct commitment. that requires a shift away from mere focus on projects. let's thank you. we are opening it up for questions. i'm going to ask the first one.

first of all, i enjoyed your presentations. all three of you, there are common threads. tore was one i like highlight. the voids that exist in libya today. organizations, voids in the national level. what we have seen, and what we would have you mentioned at this point specifically, you find the militias filling these voice. impolite thing -- influencing -- r done we -- what can be done to fill these roles? financing,for technical assistance, is there something that is missing to help them be more effective players on the national level? can we realistically expect that if they are, they can begin to

challenge the armed groups for political evidence? and they brought in their appeal to fill that role? >> i would take a shot at that. definingion is really the role of civil society in libya. if you look at the coalition of togetherat are brought coalition,tical civil society is part of it. there is not a distinction between working for the civil society, and working for other society. that is something that has not

been marketed in the culture. role? chemically a role for chemically a role? they play her absolutely they can. meant tolarge role clear benghazi for the military groups. clear that from the center. the same thing which organizations are working to create a nonmilitary city. that is something that is not made by public demand.

both are filled with these people. there was a murky relationship. people of civil society worked for the political i delay should -- and many people think that there is an impact of this occupation of the ministry to the speeding of the military. it could be. no one can deny the fact that effective inwas doing that. the question for us in libya, don't just judge what goes in benghazi and aaa. there other places that have worked out the issues without having to go to arms.

, andand killings detentions that happened in the western mountains between the tribes, and in the south. in the east, known to be the tribal basin, it hasn't happened. it just shows that it is not the tribes. the animosity that can be created. who feeds it? who ignites a? there are millions of speculations. conclude, the civil society organizations can and have shown they can stand up to the arms groups. >> anybody? >> i would agree. i would see a few things. civil society is a much better place than i would say tunisian

civil society at this point, when it comes to this blurred line of political party versus civil society. you see resistance to becoming more political, where is in tunisia it is so blurred that it is difficult to tell. i would say anything huge positive, civil society is very clear on what they want. they want to accountable government. as a happening at the pace they would let? definitely not. if you look at the recent inling, it organizations this room sponsored them, there is optimism that while things are worthing -- moving slowly, there's an appreciation the democracies went take an insanely long time. to your question, i think the little framework question is key. how can they operate on the national level ones that legal

framework is in place? it makes it easier for them to go and take larger national level actions. advocacy is a huge issue. there is a lot of civil society issues that are passionate. they want to influence the decision, and the immediate response is we will protests. systematically, understanding where decisions are made, who are the influencers, what are the structures that we need to work through to impact a larger scale decision, that is missing. hunting a way to get civil society as a whole to understand their role of advocacy, and the toping of the whole thing get that national level change. >> thank you. we will open our floor to

questions. my colleague has a microphone. --ase with the microphone please wait for the microphone. >> what is the responsiveness of do action? to i'm afraid they are relying on the foreigners. sooner or later, there is not a response from the libyans to work out. how is the new responsiveness?

>> can you guys hear me? in under the believe that approaching the civil society support center under the the answer culture, usually is because civil society's capacity is limited. there are sufficient needs for funding international bodies. to the extent that the funding usually at the end of the year isn't used. in libya, there is a concern with correction. it goes hand-in-hand with the institutions that can monitor the spending of funding. in the absence of institutions, and the absence of civil society to execute on programs, the understanding is that currently it is working ok. the funding as it stands. we do have one of our largest

grants from the libyan national telecommunications company, a local libyan company. our spirits with them is that while they offer us cash in a bag essentially, which is any dream country, the capacity to support is limited. the oversight took them nine months ended the grant issued to us. some of the items in the contract are not necessarily following through. they just change the board of directors because of the political isolation law. the people we signed with initially have been replaced. doesn't situation is -- because the situation is not more stable , they're becoming more fluid, we believe there will be a reliance on foreign funding for the more time to come. aerefore, a transition plan

couple of years from now is probably more appropriate than trying to develop a local funding mechanism at this point. >> thank you. friendnt to let my question. there are two sides to that. as for activities that are run within civil groups of civil society, i have seen it personally. there is an attitude by the private sector, even though it , programs?to help not yet. culture andistry of civil society, they have not stepped up to the plate and organize themselves. i suggested creating delivery -- libyan endowment.

support programs. -- let some of the programs the active. your supporting people who have just have a lot of money. support for civil society proves they can build. and it will not be wasted. they are not convinced. the mechanism of supporting has not yet been made from the official site. the private sector is in a nation stage. it has not been strong enough to support the organizations and programs. events, i've seen them support many events. let me throw out a question. -- the legal framework for the civil society

organizations. i agree they are important. we have seen when it is a less than fully free legal framework in which civil society organizations can operate in egypt, which has undergone be foreign funding trials. there is such a law under consideration in libya now, an initial reading suggesting it is fairly liberal. i'm curious, how you see that going forward. what is the political context for it. what is the attitude towards it? i made the assertion that it is fairly open. on the other hand, there is suspicion that was nurtured under 42 years of the gadhafi regime to be suspicious of

foreign agendas. how is that playing out in the development of the legal framework? workshops ine 50 libya. whenever i started the workshop, i tell people my organization is funded by the national endowment by the democracy. it is an american organization. if you do not feel comfortable, you can leave. and none will leave. have dissipated. this aside, the civil society legislation, there are many drafts. we have studied them. the edit nations program is

working. we are working on creating the best modal for legislation we .an present to the gnc we engage this together. i think we are hopeful that that process will bring about the .est minds contributing as for in general, in the innstream, there isn't much the culture. -- there is noe phobia against the other. there are some elements that want it. culture, the

transparency is important. so people feel there is no cheating. they are very transparent attitudes. >> i would just echo what you said. often, what we're finding is organizations are open to any kind of exchanges where there are cautionary but not direct handover of funds. not wanting to be seen both within their community or their family as pushing a political or foreign agenda, and therefore you as an international

organization, you provide technical experts. seeing that, taking on those funds, to not want the perception of being pushing the foreign agenda. >> the other question here? could you identify yourself? thank you. my name is chuck with the libya business association. it is great to see you back here. -- i've been back to libya only a couple of times since the revolution.

most recently, in june, one of the things that struck me was the libyan private sector and this role in civil society. the i see a dichotomy where rabbit sector serves a role in accomplishing things that need to be done a big government is not in a position to do at the moment. an example we saw in june, a businessman was underwriting the publication of critics, books, and pamphlets explaining how civics work, and distributing them to mosques. role of thes of a

libyan private sector as a legitimate civil society relatelder, trying to their views in providing input into private policy. whether that being transparency to encouraging the libyan government to engage in international global trading variousor engaging in forms of the united states government. i'm interested in many of your opinions on what -- whether the private sector is viewed generally, and if they view themselves as a needed and relevant stakeholder in the civil society, and what is being

done to increase and challenge them to develop their own capacity to serve responsibly. somethingspeak of that is in the making, but the center for international enterprise is working with the public sector and private sector in developing a vision of the role of the private sector in developing not just the infrastructure for the country and the business, but in their own democracy building. that is something that the initial stage of it, we have done it with them. people are excited about it. it is in the making. as we said, technical resources are needed.

you can help in that side for programs. >> there is legislation on the books before the revolution requiring that corporations give 33% of profits to social responsive romance. taken corporations have it upon themselves to do that. there are many corporations not paying the tax. as far as the involvement, there are great relationships on the local level. there isn't a lot of collaboration on a national level between businessmen and civil society. tripoli is an example of that. although it is a town, it is a national button -- and the

economic center is tripoli. those relationships don't exist between civil society and the economic factor and decision- makers. that collaboration doesn't exist. they do have a much closer relationship. alongsociety operates practical lines of how can we build our city, how can we contribute to education and healthcare. that is the role of civil society. engages civil society. with the money being a aaa -- tripoli, i think that the primary source for success in libya is coordination. and communication.

it is about building capacity coordinating a group for the constitution writing process. how civil societies can work together to advocate for major issues. is of the needs identified because the trust is missing, to build with different players when you're coordinating with a group. the real psychology libyan set face on a daily basis. , whenilding coordinating it comes down to what everyone here probably does as part of their organizational developments, people building. it is trust. bullying -- it begins with the

individual believing in their own capacity and the community. the highest level of trust in the state. most fundamental levels doesn't really exist. bring it down to the most basic block of civil society. >> the discussion so far is focused on the challenges in libya. i'm getting there is a lot of enthusiasm for some organizations. they are finding more success on a local level. can you share specific examples of organizations that have stood out for being effective?

since international donor status is likely to change in the short term. >> specific examples of organizations that have stood out and been successful in pushing a public agenda. what are the lessons to be learned? >> the first example will be the coordinating groups? national campaign all over the country and had really worked day and night for months until they had achieved the law. this shows that the civil society trained when they bring their forces together, they can

achieve something. the said, it is market with military groups that divide the ministries. many people forget that it was not just the two militaries. groups forrdinating the political isolation that has worked day and night to contact members of the dnc. they use the tv quite often. they have made a national campaign. that in this example of the success. working to achieve something with the help of the higher level. that is my take. >> i agree. i do think that the way that the political party that led the having their most

[indiscernible] moree way the position was politics to the law and just grassroots activism. that was a successful campaign. it was a campaign that leveraged all the tools on the table when the time is appropriate. including the threat of violence. towards the end of the campaign. on a local level, there have been a selection of counsel heads done on very much in consultation with citizens. for instance, the local municipality election laws are being determined with the

collaboration of civil society. ,he national civic education they are working to have a section for civil society. they're working on how to drop the local municipality laws, and how to guarantee maximum citizen participation. on a local level, cleaning campaign. healthcare campaigns. there is a really fantastic antismoking campaign that citizens of lead. , non-smokingtion indoors. some of that i national level be difficult. he civiluld add that society constitutional initiative, which rob has been

an active member in leading and supporting. effective civil society across the country come together to that shouldnifesto be enshrined in the constitutional process, and reach agreements on those principles, and nominate members within their own communities to ordinary and feed these principles back, and arranging dialogue sessions to get input from the community on this manifesto, and feed those recommendations back up through civil society working groups that got those recommendations to decision-makers across the board, that is a huge success. , 1500 my been the last number that i saw. it is usually successful. i would say that the work of the shuttley,

diplomacy discussions and negotiators that are going on with civil society takes an active role in engaging with police and other security officials, following security incidents. share information, negotiate the agreements read remarkable to the table. is there toeryone demonstrate the citizens of benghazi are full the rule of law. they do not want a malicious day. these initiatives are powerful. civil societies in the front. when there is that lack of response, that is in the front. that is a huge success. >> thank you. >> [indiscernible] i want to get a sense, thank you

for your commentary. on the factmarks ,hat as cream is it may appear there is a minimum on the ground. it would take about civil society, how widespread is participation in civil society? we have a number of organizations, 1500 that are written on the books, but what is your sense of greater citizen participation? ? minority of people are a lot involved? can you talk about that? >> i would like to add an adjunct to that question. advocacy, reaching people, getting people participating. what a role of the social media -- what is the

role of social media in libya? how could it be used more effectively. >> as far as citizen participation, i think that benghazi and triple the -- tr ipoli are different. ibo wanted to participate. in the absence of results, participation waned off. we have a handful of not veryions with strong grassroots our reach. groups that already exists on the outskirts. doingre not necessarily civil society activities, but organizing the activity, and getting their communities safe

on a daily basis. depending on your definition, i suppose, there are active citizens. there is no rule of law and libby. it is a state of anarchy. it has always been that way. citizens have learned to manage their affairs, and learn to create the piece. peace. air actually actively working towards keeping the safety, keeping the order by virtue of them being libyan citizens. advocating very limited activity in their regard. >> i will take a shot at the issues. all, the activities are

absent downs. issues, that really like the issue of the presence.issue, the those cities that the people of the cities are very much in line of trying to work out and push the government to please the cities. it is an ongoing process. they have been working on with all available means available to them. media, i haveal seen it in benghazi. usingre the benghazi is

it regardless of the problems. example, the assassination, it reverberates across the country. many people from the south and tot came to benghazi participate against the killing, give support for the family. yet thesay, it is not absence of the rule of law. >> there is a heavy factor. weapons are in libya. almost every libyan is on. there is a deterrent. some kind ofes stability. people do not -- they are there

to attack your home. even police cannot give you a ticket. ticket --you have a they know you have a gun or something. it is a silver lining. ,n a way, you can look at it facebookve used the methodology a lot. it is creating movement. it is calling people into the street. -- theye almost been haven't seen a week without a protest of something. in many ways, regardless of the absence of the security presence , i have met with a lot of people in benghazi from the civil society, from the local government, from the security

and the military to create what is called the chamber of security in benghazi. they collaborate to work together. there is an effort of civil society to engage in the security and safety of the city. what they can bring is the streets, which is important. factor that has ever been played before. the lifet, a look at of first ladies. a discussion about how the media covers war. and president obama visits camp pendleton. tomorrow, the center for american progress looks at the signs of public live coveragets, begins at 10:00 eastern on c- span two, the national security

summit. topics will include national and defenseeats, department budget cuts. live coverage begins at 8:00 eastern. anti-m not some sort of suburb person who thinks that everyone needs to live in new york city. anas coming across as espresso sipping elitists. that is not why i did this book. i understand why people like the suburbs. i get fed up with a lot. trendmore drawn to the that is undeniable. a shift in the way that urban america is perceived is too big of a story to ignore. >> where the american dream is moving. sunday night at 9:00.

>> public affairs event from washington directly to you. putting you in the room at congressional hearings, white house of vince, briefings and conferences. offering gavel-to-gavel coverage of the u.s. house as a public service of private industry. created by the cable tv industry 34 years ago, and funded by your local travel -- cable or satellite provider. >> ease into a first ladies, influence and image, against monday, september 9 -- all this month we are showing episodes from season one. watch it each weeknight. next, the life of james madison's wife, dolly madison.

madison. ♪ >> dolley was socially adept and politically savvy. >> she was his best friend. she compensated. >> james madison wishes to meet her. >> she carved out a space for women where they can wield a great deal of political power. >> dolley madison would sit at the head of the table and erect the conversation. >> she got these people to the white house and entertained them. got them together and got them talking. >> this was important to her to make everyone feel welcome. >> it was considered her classic look. people noticed it. >> it was a perfect setting for james and dolley madison >> she

sat side by side with james madison helping him. >> she moved back to washington d.c. in her elder years and became very much behind the scenes in a political field again. >> as henry clay famously said, everybody loves mrs. madison. her equally famous response -- >> dolley madison came to her service as first lady with experience during thomas jefferson's two terms. the president often called on her to assist him. this sense of the usefulness of diplomacy all-out dolley to hit the ball running. she assumed the role in 1809 as her husband james madison became the president. welcome.

we will learn about the intriguing dolley madison. we have two guests at our table. let me introduce you to them. catherine allgor, an author and biographer of dolley madison. thank you for being here. edith mayo was the creator of the first lady's exhibit at the smithsonian. thank you for being here tonight. >> it is a pleasure. >> any 21st century woman who starts to read about dolley madison can see parallels to their own lives. was she ahead of her time? a modern person in the early 1800's's or not? >> that is the paradox. she was raised in a certain

culture. she starts adapting in a way that paved the way for modernity. she also creates the first lady role that we have come to know. every modern first lady -- she opened the door for a lot of women. >> we are trying to show the parallels among them, how they handle things. >> i think in our first segment about martha washington, you saw martha as the person who protected the aspect of the role, the social partners to the president, and a hope to the nation. when you get to abigail, she becomes a political partner with her husband and pioneers that

role. dolley is the one that brings the two of them together. she becomes the social and political partner for her husband. i think that sets all kinds of precedents for the future first lady. she is still held up as a standard by which other people measure themselves today. >> we will spend the first 35 minutes on those important white house years. it was such an interesting time for the country and we want to make sure you understand the history of it. we will learn how this young quaker woman became an internationally known first lady and we will end up with her legacy. we welcome your participation. throughout the program, we will have phone lines open. you can send us a tweet and use #firstladies. there are people wanting to know about martha jefferson.

they are thinking, what happened. we talked about dolley madison's role. what happened to martha jefferson? >> she and jefferson were married for 10 years. she died in childbirth. she was a little or when she moved into the white house. she needed someone to oversee these parties when both sexes were pleasant. it was thought to be unseemly. he would ask dolley madison. >> he did not entertain very much. >> he entertained in a private

way. he did not have large entertainments like washington or atoms or the madison spirit >> the capital was getting used to that. >> i think there was criticism. because he did not invite the women as often as he did the man. he preferred to have a lot of mail company and conduct actual political conversations. he also did away with all kinds of rank and protocol. he wanted everyone to be treated as equal. thought that was what it was all about.

>> james madison and thomas jefferson were very close political allies. it is natural when jefferson is elected. i want to say something about jefferson's social program. it is not an accident. he was interested in securing his own political power. he had dinner parties with men of one party or the other. he would rally the supporters. then there would be a dinner party with the opposition. that was all about keeping an eye on the enemy. the idea brought up about the lack of women, which was why her role in the jefferson administration is not the big story of that time, he had seen when and women at social events.

he was horrified and shocked, especially about their political power. it fell outside the official power. he cut off all the events and the white house was open only fourth of july and new year's day. that was partly because he wanted to curtail the power of women. there was something else going on. that was dolley madison setting up the connection of networked she would bring to the white house. during the first year, the center of social and political life was not the white house, but that house. >> here are a few bullet points about the country in 1810. the population at that point was 7.2 million. 36% growth since the census 10 years earlier. last week, it was a 35% growth. this country is booming. bursting at the seams.

of those, 16% were slaves. what was the time like and how important was dolley in helping navigate those times for her husband? >> the first story of two was the union. the early republic, there was a great anxiety. no one was sure this union would hold. people at the time would refer to the united states in the plural. they would say, the united states of america are. it was not holding quite together. there was a fear it was holding a part.

james madison's primary political goal was unity. if you keep that in mind as we go on tonight, dolley madison's work will become understandable. the second thing i would like to say is that we know the end of the story. we know this nation will be a strong nation state with a democracy and a two-party system and a strong presence. that was none of the things the founders had intended. we look back and see that time as a time of growing pains. they did not know how this would end. madison was the perfect person to help the nation ease into what it would be. >> serving as the chief executive of the nation, he brought the real concept of how he wanted the role to be carried out.

how did he approach it and how did she help him? >> he was the idea guy. he was very theoretical. he and other members of the founding generation understood unity as a concept. it was their number 1 job. how do you do it? how do you bring forth unity? what dolley madison did is take that concept and translate them into action. she is an acting unity on to the national stage. >> how? >> the first thing somebody alluded to in the beginning, she brought people together. every wednesday night, it does not matter if you are the vice president, there will be a drawing room. she put people in the room together. that sounds nice. this is about more than just

nice. the early republic is a time of survival. the feeling of this union is exacerbated in washington because the all the regionalisms come together. these are people who did not just disagree with each other, but they dueled and fought each other industries and on the floors of congress. that is why bringing people together can treating each other as humans is not just lovely, but crucial. >> this concept is exactly the kinds of things martha washington and abigail adams used. >> it is very different from what they had done. theirs is extremely formal. dolley's was much more open. you have everybody in dolley's drawing room able to have access to the chief executive and his lady. that is very important for forging a unity in the united states. also, dolley creates, she starts out as the wife of the secretary of state. what she is doing is forging a

social network on which politics and diplomacy could be conducted in a civilized manner through the ceremonial forms of dinners, receptions, parties, and so forth. some of these tensions and animosities that played themselves out in the halls of congress had a way of being resolved at parties. in an amicable way. she is really forging new networks that will work for both politics and society. >> this concept you write about in several books, the subtitle is, the creation of the american nation. you read about the fact that women of the class understood as their power to be able to use social skills to build the nation. >> the founders understood the american revolution was more

than a political revolution they were going to build the world. that meant everything was under consideration. they were going to score and everything of the old world. king's and markey and courts. they turn to the women, and this is a political theory. it says that, in a culture, laws can come and go. what they call manners stay. manners are the way people treat each other and how they regard each other and how they behave. this is very appealing to the new americans. one thing they are inventing, a whole bunch of laws they are not sure people would buy. they needed people to behave. the phrase they used was republican virtue.

that meant people would put the interests of the country before themselves. how do you get people to do that? they looked to the women of the class to start enforcing national matters. these white women of the cities were very conscious of that. >> here are the phone lines. if you live in the eastern or central time zones, our number is 202, 585, 380. please dial carefully. we will take calls and another 10 minutes. this is a facebook question. i will turn to you has a long time curator of first ladies. the early first ladies for excellence riders. in what conditions are early letters? we saw thousands of letters last week.

but what about dolley madison? what did she preserved? did she have a sense of her legacy? >> i think she did. she is writing to her sister as the british were coming. she is telling her sister what she is doing. so there will be something to put in the history books. she wants it known she is saving the documents, the important pieces of silver, the portrait of george washington, but she is writing has everything is being packed to go off to virginia for safety. she is aware of what she is doing. she writes a number of letters to her family members. >> i want to weigh in. we know as historians, this is the heart of what we do. for a long while, to find the actual letters, it is really

hard to do. in the 1990's, at the university of virginia, they began collecting her papers and published them in a lovely book. but there is now a web master of dolley madison, so these are the papers that are really crucial. mary writes about her aunt. a lot of those stories, which must have come from dolley herself, later in her life, she is getting a sense of legacy. she cannot intrude upon the public notice as a man would, but she gave her these memoirs, which have now been published for the first time. people can read those. >> we have a video to show you struck the night. the place is important to dolley madison. let's watch.

♪ >> the portrait of dolley madison hangs in the red room. red fabrics complemented the fabric in her chair. she is an inspiration for that room. the room was in fact yellow under dolley madison. the red color was introduced in 1820's and 1830's. the furniture of the time is in that room. it would have been that style in her lifetime. two of the most interesting in the room are the bust of martin van buren, and the portrait of his daughter in law. and the fact that dolley madison is connected to that store years later.

when president van buren was inaugurated, president madison had died the year before and she had moved back to washington. president van buren was a widower. dolley madison basically introduced angelica to her husband to be, the president's eldest son. she became the hostess for the white house. largely as a result of dolley madison doing matchmaking. >> what condition was the white house? >> washington d.c. was a very muddy place. abigail had written home it was a very dirty hall of a place she had ever been in her life. the houses were separated far apart.

it is not like we think of it today. it is very rudimentary. part of what she is doing is building a social network amongst the women so that a lot of this is overlooked for politics and diplomacy and fashion. it can carry people over the fact we are not living in a fantastic capital of the world. >> questions. did they get along? >> yes. she was there. this is one of the stories her niece said when james madison was courting dolley, martha washington confronted her and asked if it was true what they say. she said, i think it is

wonderful. what is interesting about abigail is there is one letter in which she writes asking for a favor of dolley madison and now we know they probably did not meet. to give a job to a relative. sometimes you study women's history. the big answer for me is we learn things we would not know otherwise. you look at dolley madison. it is a huge network. men will not touch it. it is to royal. it is too corrupt. their wives and daughters are playing the whole time. we have one moment where we have a former first lady and president's wife asking another for patronage. >> that was part of what was thought of as a first lady's role at the time.

>> who were some of her biggest congressional allies of the time? >> henry is the famous one. the reason we know about him, it gives you a glimpse of behind the curtain and how politics works. leading up to the war of 1812, james madison was not sure he wanted to go to work. he was so secretive about it, scholars disagree. he had to walk a fine line. he needed allies. he had dolley do it. he had famous stories. we have to look at these things as a form of political analysis. when the people of the time were looking at that, they were not just saying look at dolley

madison with henry. they were trying to read the energy. she courted people on both sides of the aisle. that was a good thing about her. people knew there was something up in the air. >> our website is a very robust site with a lot of videos about each of these women. there will be a special feature each week you can see only on the web. if you go there tonight, you can see how dolley madison's snuffbox. >> she was addicted. >> this is one of the modern concepts. the women patriots knew how to use their own power for the sake of our young country. wives wishing to please their husbands. >> i think these women were very aware of their place in history. you know you are centrally

positioned to influence aspects of politics. i think they probably would never have used the term feminism or feminist, but i think they knew exactly what they were doing. >> the first question comes from scotty in tennessee. are you there? >> i am calling in the show for the first time. >> welcome. >> thank you. did she know anything about the affair he had? >> the big story for her is not helping thomas jefferson as a hostess. we do not know anything much about dolley madison. there is a story i read about paul jennings, james madison's

body servant. the first person to write a white house memoirs. he was a slave. there was a story that dolley madison asked henry, name one of her sons after james madison. she does not get the gift. >> a related question for michael. what was dolley madison's opinion of thomas jefferson and did the madisons ever visit

monticello? >> i think they visited back and forth. they were good friends and knew each other for many years. maybe you have more information on that. >> is a little ways. when we talk about retirement years, the few times james madison leaves his beloved is to visit thomas jefferson. i would say we do not know the true opinion of a lot of people because she was very cautious. thomas jefferson seemed to love her, even though she is conducting a social circle under his nose and nobody hated like thomas ever since. the fact that he adored dolley speaks volumes about her. >> catherine is up next. >> thank you for taking my call. i know that dolley madison was raised a quaker and her first husband was a quaker. she left it and married james madison. i read stories about her father freed slaves and testimony to

the catalyst of slavery. i was wondering, how do you think her upbringing influenced her as a first lady. >> i will cut to the chase. we do not know enough about her childhood. my theory on this is one of the central tenets of quakerism is to regard people as and god. that is why they do not use titles. dolley became famous for being empathetic and warm. i think that comes from her quakerness. >> she was able to take on and do so well in this role was because quakers believed men and women were equal. you do not get any sense of her

being lesser them. she fits right in and does her thing. >> the first white house allocated a salary. was it still that much at the time? >> i do not know. >> most presume it was. it was about $1.10 million today. that is a lot. who paid for all the social functions? did they have to pay out of their own salaries for all the events we are talking about?

>> yes. this was the time that was part of the deal going into public service. this is why rich white men were to take it on. a lot of it came out of pocket. the medicines were not the first presidential couple to leave much poorer than when they came in. there was quite a hefty amount given to her to redo the mansion, which she did very well and spend the money very well. >> a furnishing budget. the previous occupants had brought their own furniture in many instances. when they left the presidency, they took it home from them. jefferson is one of those who did that. when washington was in new york and philadelphia. this was the thing dolley wanted to do because she thought it needed a stately, elegant look. they took the decorating very seriously and wanted to make it look as if it could be on somewhat equal terms with the

power of europe so they could conduct diplomatic negotiations in a proper setting. >> it sounds to me, there is a constant push and pull between wanting to be seen as equal. >> a real dichotomy. >> it is one of the reasons we look at women, as well. you have the revolution and the fight against everything it stands for, but now you have the nation. legitimacy and authority? the only power they have is loyalty. we have strange moments and they go back and forth. the women of these families took it on. martha washington is lady

washington. james madison is mr. president. dolley is queen dolley. that is one of the messages she is sending out the women at that time understood a lot of the beginning of that is predicated on loyalty. >> a lot of people called her president. >> who called her queen dolley? >> a lot of people. >> she dressed a queen. she looked every inch a queen. she bought a lot of her materials in paris. she is very elegantly dressed. she looks to american eyes as a queen. that is fine. she is not the head of state. she is walking a very fine line where she expresses the finer things to which the nation

aspires. she is not royalty. she is always walking a very fine line down the middle. >> you provided a wonderful segue to our next video. the restored home of the madisons and open for tours. put it on your list if you ever get to virginia. they have a display that talks about her dresses. we will show you that now. >> most of the dresses we have at the visitor's center are based on descriptions we have of the way she dressed.

one dress we own is a real creation of something we still have. this is typical of the style of the day. classical lines. it was much more simple and elegant than the fashion before or after. this is the style she would have worn while she was first lady. many of the dresses were more elegant. this represents what she wore at her inaugural. this was james madison's first inaugural. she wore a simple but velvet. she wore pearls. that was something more classically elegant but less ostentatious than the diamonds you would normally find in the courts of europe.

she was setting a style unique to american fashion. a lot of people think she set the fashion of the turban. that is not quite true. it began in persia and moved to france and england. but she popularized the style. that was considered her classic look, to wear an extravagant turban with fetters on her head. people notice it. sometimes, they thought her fashion was a little too regal. there was one instance where she wore something with edging in her turban. people said this was overstepping things. she looked to wriggle into queenly. they were afraid queen dolley was setting the wrong tone. toward the end of her life, she wore many of the fashions she wore in her earlier day. some of this may have been to evoke that american founding.

she was the last living matriarch of the generation. some of it was because of the growing -- she did not have the money to where the latest fashions. she had to where many of her old clothes. she had several paintings made of her final days. she is often wearing the same thing. >> one other thing we should mention is for her time, she was quite tall. >> she was. she was 5 foot 7 inches. >> i have an image of the two of them standing next to each other. dolley in her turbans and james madison in the style of the revolution. it does not work. >> it became politicized a lot of the criticism toward the madisons focused on james madison.

this was a time where political authority was mailed. thomas jefferson, big and tall. washington was described as a halt. and then this little tiny guy. he probably had his press secretary coming out, saying he is 5 foot 6 inches. he is not. size mattered. her heights and good health led to rumors of her sexuality. the reasons she never had children was she was literally burning up. you realize things were quite serious. >> she was also during the campaign accused of having an affair with jefferson because

she had been his hostess on various occasions. they extrapolated into a personal affair. >> were able to put that to rest? >> i think they were. he would not have been able to be elected. >> a question about her approach to this. the way that she dressed. was this a conscious decision to stand apart as opposed to personal taste or vanity? she was creating a brand. >> yes.

you have to look at the context. this is a new nation. we know it is very fragile. there is not a lot of bureaucracy or structure. that was delivered. there was not a lot of structure. people focus on personalities and on the figure of the person. we have all the descriptions of george washington. they talk about his grandeur and all this stuff. it seems like george washington is posing for statues. in the republic, it became descriptions of her on the move. it was a form of political analysis. she deliberately created this. she is not wearing what an actual queen would wear, but would wear an adaptation. she put that on her turban to make for even taller. >> how would americans react to this? the newspapers had reports with descriptions of what she was wearing?

>> and how did it was. >> were they proud? >> i think they were mostly proud. the federalists were a little put off by this. they thought it was a little too regal and court like. but there was a lot of discussion about creating a republican court. that is a group of people who headed up government but with the idea of having a republic instead of a monarchy. that is part of what she was doing. one of the things that is ingenious about dolley is she takes european influences and filters them through a democratic lands.

they give you something to aspire to as a new nation and how elliot and wonderful it can be. but you do not offend people who dislike the courts and the royalty of europe. >> she had a parrot? >> yes. apparently it was a terror and would attack people. she played her own part in this last moment when everybody throughout the white house, there is a white french servant, and he takes the bird over to the house where she lived long enough to make it where somebody is the victim of a nighthawk. >> maybe some people in washington secretly cheered. [laughter] >> it is time to talk about the important decision to go to war with great britain. and the eventual seizure of the capital city, which happened in 1814.

there is a dramatic story about dolley madison being in the white house alone and the approaching british troops. we will start with you about telling us that story. >> the background of all of this is they had been gone for a couple of years. there were rumors around the city that the capitals were the target. the washington city had an inferiority complex. the man in charge would say, they are never coming to washington. baltimore is the place. some of the british did march on washington city. that is not prepared. she is alone in the white house. the day before the last day of the white house, august 24, 1814.

she is waiting for her husband to come home while she is preparing for the worst. she is writing this letter for her sister and running up to the roof looking for a husband. she is observing how badly the battle is going. she is also packing things, silver, which she considers the people's possessions, and she sends them away in carts. finally, the work comes and it is time to go. >> the british were coming. >> how endangered was she? >> if she waited any longer, she might have been captured. that would have been a huge prize of war. she knew she had to leave. she wanted to wait for her husband to come home, and then they reunited a couple of days later. she had the tables set for dinner and the british came in and thought that was wonderful.

but she saved the portrait of washington, which was one of the things that endeared her to the entire nation, a portrait. she knew exactly what she was doing. writing about it, she knew what her place in history was going to be. >> are you worried about the fact that this is symbolic because it was a copy of a painting? she understood the british could not be seen burning. >> a historian is trying to decide whether she was symbolic as they say. the admiral framed all of his threats towards washington. he was going to come and dine at madison's table. he was going to parade her to the streets. he was not attacking james madison with rhetoric, but her. when he got to the white house and she was not there, he took things of hers because he said he wanted to recall her seat. the dinner party was interesting, too.

it seems odd to have a dinner party one washington was an exodus. she was trying to hold the capital together even as it was falling apart. she intended to have a dinner party that day. >> she wrote this. "i must leave this house. -- >> there was a great deal of conversation about should the capital still remain in washington, which was now destroyed? or should they move the capital back to philadelphia? the octagon house was only a few blocks away. they immediately began to entertain. in a grand style.

this really sent a signal to diplomats in washington and congress and the people, that they were not going to turn tail and run, but stay in the capital. >> next, we will visit that house. >> this is very important for dolley madison's political career as first lady. the octagon is two blocks from the white house. it was a natural fit as they tried to resume government as quickly as possible. the majestic, elegant, spacious house was the perfect setting for the events that dolley needed to orchestrate and manage in the life of the president. this is why the house is known as the octagon. it was a round room very popular in those days. this was an important room to welcome guests. it is a round room. when you are in this room, no matter where you stand, you are

equal. this was very important for dolley to make everybody feel welcome. enemies or allies. the room is a good example of why this house was so good for dolley. she was known for her wednesday drawing room event. they had 300 people before the were coming. during the war, up to 500 people coming. the room could only said about 5200 people. it's still serve the the very important purpose. the country was still at war when the medicines were here. dolley was playing an important role. she often had different people here, and poured members of congress would be seated at the table. many discussions took place in this room while she was the hostess. it was important to maintain a sense of decorum for the president and first lady. the business was going to go on and the united states would survive and continue.

>> we have on facebook a question about whether or not she liked to mix people of various social classes at these events. >> that was part of what in deer herd to people, that she had access to just about anyone who was well-dressed were properly addressed, in other words, you do not have to be elegant or rich. if you are properly dressed, you could have access to the family. >> there was discussion about boots. for some people, she is way too regal and too much. four other people, they look at this democratic reaching out and they are suspicious of it.

they expressed their reservations are around the issue of boots. a gentleman would never come on a carpet with boots on. >> washington was a different place at the time. >> she welcome congressman from different areas. they pointed to that as a sign of her dangerous tendencies. >> this is a specific question of local history. is it true she escaped the war on what is now madison boulevard? >> i do not know. he goes to bellevue, now the house you can go and visit. then they do go across the room and she spends the time at the plantation.

she ends at the house still standing now. i think the road probably reflects that. >> was she safe when she crossed the river? >> she was. i was lucky enough to go there. she could see washington burn. >> barbara in new york city is up next. independent. >> could either of your guests speak to a story i read about that she stopped at a store in baltimore owned by a black woman and that it was there that she first tasted ice cream and she loved it and she served in very frequently at her social gatherings after that.

do either of your guests know anything about that? >> ice cream and dolley madison became synonymous later on in 20th-century america. >> i do not know the accuracy of that particular story. i think jefferson was the president bringing ice-cream back from france. ghali served in the white house. where she found it, i do not know. >> is a serious import. the story is not true probably. it is the association people tell me, she invented ice cream. she did not. what happens is, almost immediately after her death, she became closely associated as a

symbol of american womanhood. her name and image get coopted by everything to ice cream hairpins, a sexy brand of cigars. she becomes a brand so quickly that the association becomes one of those things that people think she invented it. it goes to how important she was >> and how people wanted to attach whatever their product was to her name and that would recommend it. she foreshadows what francis does in the late 19th century, where francis's face and name are plastered on all kinds of products for sale. >> today, how has the white house approached that? louie in washington d.c., welcome. >> a fascinating program. i have enjoyed being on with you before myself. no question she was extraordinarily courageous.

here she is, not just worried about getting out herself, but do we know did she ride when she took those valuables? one of the drawings shows her and walking. how did she get away and where did she cross to get into virginia? >> why do i get the geography questions? i will say this. she said all these papers, including james madison's notes. she takes them previous to that. at the last minute, she decided on a painting. there is evidence she got her servant to wrestle it off-the- wall and she gave it to two gentlemen from the york who put

it in a car and took it away. something would survive and she herself is taken away by carriage. i do not know where she crossed. >> john is in new york. >> thank you for taking my call i understand dolley madison died in poverty. i was wondering if that is true and how that happened. i know elisa had lived from the corner. i was wondering if they had ever enacted. thank you very much. >> how far into american history was it? >> a while. what they had was what they lived on when they retired. if you are wealthy enough to get into politics in the first

place, you would be able to support yourself afterwards. dolley had a son from her first marriage. he ran through their estate. he ran up enormous debts and ended up in prison twice. each time james and dolley would bail him out. she put him in charge and that was a disaster. she ended up losing and living in poverty. >> was she not a good judge of character? >> one of the great political guess she brought to a very contentious time in politics, it was a refusal to contend. she did not fight.

it is not great when you have a son being spoiled. this was her blind spot. all of that would not work with him. i want to answer the question about elisa. they did know each other. in 1848, when they laid the cornerstone for the washington monument, the sponsors decided to bring the relics of the republic. widows were called relics. they invited by dolley madison and hamilton. these women were representatives of the time. >> we have about 35 minutes left in our portrait. it is time to answer the question, who was this woman who became internationally famous

and what we're roots? we visited her house in philadelphia where she lived as a quaker. we will show you that now. >> this is her house in philadelphia. here, she becomes wife, mother, and a widow. this room was a kitchen of the house. you would probably find her with her two sisters. she would often have her younger sister living here with her. as quakers, they did not believe in slavery. her husband gave free legal advice to the abolitionists society here. this is a dining room. this room was a multiuse room. the family dined here but they also use it for educational purposes. they believe both men and women should be educated. on the table, there are books here for educating sisters and her son. in august of 1793, a french ship arrived in philadelphia it was carrying passengers suffering from yellow fever.

anyone who had money sent their family outside the city and the successful lawyer did that. he will die of yellow fever on october 24, 1793. the same day john dies of yellow fever, dolley's baby will die, as well. not only did she lost her husband and protector, but also, she has the community watching her. she has a gentleman who are interested for months. even as she walked down the street, all the men we're stopping to stare at her. the quakers watched her closely. her friends warned her she needs to be aware they are watching her and she needs to be right by her son.

this property is partly his property, too, even though he's only a few years old at the time. dolley has to contend with the scrutiny of the community and have to go to court to petition them to be the guardian of her own son because that was the situation. even though her husband had made her the executor widow, her brother-in-law has kept the property so she has to hire a lawyer to protect her interests and her own brother-in-law. this is on the second floor of the house. this is where you would entertain your friends.

one of the men interested in meeting her was james madison. he was a congressman here in capital city. philadelphia was the contemporary capital of the united states at the time. was an exciting place to be. aaron had been living in her mother's boarding house. it is aaron burr who let's turn now james madison which is to meet her. james madison would meet dolley in this parlor for the first meeting. they expected at least a year of morning before they get married again. it really raised eyebrows in the community that she was married within less than a year. she was very scrutinized by the quakers for that. the fact that he is not a quaker is she would be put out of the community, as well. >> that video gave us a broad overview of the biography. let's fill in a few of the blanks.

>> where was she born? >> that was a little bit of a family scandal. is he converts to quakerism. they go off and they live in the frontier, which is in north carolina. they were just going to move there. she was born in north carolina, so she is north carolina's only first lady. she spends most of her live -- life denying it. they moved back to virginia. thats raised in so she's raised in the world of slave holding. >> her father released his slaves as a quaker. is that the cause of his inability to continue his business?