7:00 eastern. tracking andether noaa's role and mission. then, the co-author of love in black-and-white. then, the brooking institute discussing finances, and the health of the state financing systems. season two of first ladies begins monday september ninth. we look into the life of edith roosevelt that night. this month, we are showing your encore presentations of season one each weeknight 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. programs on every first lady, from martha washington. tonight, elizabeth munro and

catherine adams. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] ♪ >> elizabeth monroe was a true partner in her husband's career. they were a love story and absolutely devoted to each other. elizabeth monroe had a well- developed sense of style and image. this is a woman who knew how to carry herself with great elegance. >> it is called the era of good feeling. >> this is a woman who spoke french. >> very great beauty. she received is seldom anything in the white house. she hated it. >> dignity, civility. those are the words that come to

mind. >> elizabeth monroe served as first lady from 1817 to 1825 as a time known as the era of good feeling. coming up, we will explore her life and what were not always happy times inside the white house for this woman born into a well-to-do new york family. she married james monroe at the age of 17 and traveled new york extensively with him. she brought with her to the white house a certain french sensibility. welcome to c-span and the white house historical association's "first ladies." we will look at the life of elizabeth monroe. let me introduce two guests. daniel preston and richard norton smith. gentlemen, welcome. the last program was dolley madison. she really used the social forum to advance her husband's political agenda. what was elizabeth monroe's approach to the white house? >> she and dolley madison were great friends.

they were at a very different temperaments. dolley madison was social by nature and was happy to get in her carriage and go visit all day long. elizabeth monroe wanted to stay home with her family. she was devoted to her daughter, her grandchildren, and, at the white house, that is what she really enjoyed and that is what she wanted to do. she wanted to be with her family. she did not like large crowds. she was very uncomfortable at the large receptions the president had. she was very charming in smaller groups. when there was a small circle of

friends together, everyone praised her charm, her affability, her conversation, said she sparkled. just a very different type of person. >> explain washington in this time and how important social was to political. >> it is interesting. these years were known as the era of good feelings. you could probably take issue with that in the second term. by that point, we were as close to being a one-party state as any time in american history. the old federalist party had

died off. there was a standoff that most americans were willing to consider a victory. we had established once and for all our independence, and it was a time of actually great boom in the country, a physical expansion, and a number of states came into the union during monroe's day. washington city remained a very raw, incomplete place with dirt

roads. in some ways, elizabeth monroe suffers for her strength. they are both seen as somehow alien. she was born in this country. see had her blossoming overseas, and france especially. the monroes became famous for the frenchness in which they approached life in the white house. and you can see it in the furniture they bought and the

food they serve. there was also an element that took exception to a first lady who somehow did not seem quite american enough. >> let's take a look at statistics about america in 1820. it is a booming country, with a population of 9.6 million. 23 states. that is a 33% growth since the 1810 census. slaves in the population

numbered 16%. the largest cities, new york city, philadelphia, and baltimore. boston fell off the list. >> there were only three roads in 1800 over the appalachian mountains. during the monroe years, you have the canal being dug in new york that will transform the economy. during the monroe years, you you have the road under construction from the capital to what is now west virginia.

we had a whole debate going on about internal improvements and what the role of the federal government should be and all that. this is a country poised for economic take off. he presided much like eisenhower presided over a period of peace and prosperity. >> as you work your way, how much evidence is there about elizabeth monroe? >> there is not a lot. based upon what her elder presided over a period of peace daughter reported, at some point after he left the presidency,

monroe burned all personal correspondence. there is one letter that survives that is written by elisabeth. there is one letter from james to her that survived. what baffles me and drives me nuts is there is only one letter she wrote to somebody else. she had extensive correspondence with her sister and friends and these letters do not seem to be anywhere. i do not understand why not. it seems like somebody would have kept some of these. consequently, having firsthand evidence of what she thought about things, we do not have. there are letters monroe wrote

to his daughters, to his two sons and laws, to his political advisers, that talk about family matters. he wrote letters home talking about meeting mrs. monroe, other women in washington recorded in their diaries. there is a fair amount about her. we do not have really anything from her point of view, which is very maddening. >> what we know from what we have about her relationship with her husband? >> they were devoted. they were apart for a couple of months here and there. throughout their 44-year marriage. usually, they were together.

there is a wonderful letter. samuel from new york wrote his wife. he had been at a dinner at the white house when jefferson was president and it was right before monroe left to go to france to negotiate what became the louisiana purchase. he wrote, monroe has a fine feeling. he cannot stand to be from his wife, so he is taking her with him. that was pretty much their attitude. he was devoted to family, as well. that is really what they wanted to do. if they had their choice of how they would spend their time, it would be with their family. >> this program is interactive. we invite your phone calls. you can reach us at -- let me turn to a facebook poster. "we have heard elizabeth monroe did not like being first lady." >> she did not like the public parts of it. she married james monroe when she was a member of the continental congress. through their entire adult life, he was in one public office or the other. she was very much used to him being a public figure, being the governor of virginia, being abroad as a minister of the united states serving as secretary of state. to go to the white house was not anything that unusual. it was not anything unexpected. people had talked about monroe being president for years. it was assumed sooner or later it would happen. as far as what the public thought about her, i do not know. we know what people in washington thought about her and

people who visited washington. and that is a very small universe. there were 200 members of the house of representatives, about 50 senators. there were at a handful of cabinet members, a few foreign dignitaries, local people. the washington social circle was maybe 500 people. that was the world of social washington. it is a very small group of people. that is who met her and reflected on her. people did not know her. when monroe was president, he did two tours around the country and they were phenomenal because no one ever saw the president. no one ever heard the president talk. we cannot go through a day, hardly. you have to be sealed up to go through a day without hearing the president's voice or to see an image of him. a man in massachusetts wrote in 1870 that for the first time, he had seen a picture, an image of president monroe. james madison gave three speeches during his presidency. thomas jefferson gave two. people never saw the president or heard the president. there really is not a public perception. it is a good question. but it is a different time. >> the white house was burned by the british and the madisons had to leave while it was being constructed. the monroes moved back in. how important was this symbolically? >> even by then, the white house had become america's house. james madison gave three speeches during his presidency. thomas jefferson gave two. people never saw the president or heard the president. there really is not a public perception. it is a good question. but it is a different time. >> the white house was burned by the british and the madisons had to leave while it was being constructed. the monroes moved back in. how important was this symbolically? >> even by then, the white house one of the reasons why its occupants have been targeted often for criticism, much of it not fair, it is because we all for an alleged obsession for think it is our house. mrs. monroe would be criticized

fashion. she paid up to $1,500 for her gown. it was alledged she painted her face, applying ruche. as silly as it sounds now, it takes us back almost to a debate at the very beginning about what kind of nation this would be. >> it really reflects to this day the monroe administration, the blue room at the white house. we will show you this clip next. [video clip]♪

♪ >> if i could go back to one time in the white house, i would probably go back to the monroe period. the united states began to come to life. monroe thought the era of good feeling would last forever. and political parties would dissolve. i think that would be the period i would like to listen to what was going on. in furnishing the house, james monroe and his wife were into french everything. he spent a lot of money bringing these things, such as these clocks, from france. many of the things he acquired are still in use. >> when you see our earliest things, many of them are in the

blue room. we have the wonderful chairs and sofas in the room. they were acquired by president monroe from france. congress in 1826 passed a law saying the furniture in the white house must be american manufactured if applicable. this room is much more of a period room. it is really a place where the monroe's would feel the most comfortable. they would walk in and say, i understand this room, a furniture we brought. this is wallpaper of our vintage. >> it sounds like speaking french might have been as controversial then as today. >> yes. it goes back to the beginning of washington and the first

presidency of trying to balance the new republican standards, simplicity and openness, but at the same time somehow maintaining a dignity and a majesty for the national government. how do you be open but at the same time present the country as being something special, particularly for visitors? for them, the white house became the tool for doing that. monroe was praised. people who met him always commented on what a plain, straightforward person he was.

then you look at how he furnished the white house. it is very different. monroe very much understood the importance of symbolism. it was to present the united states in a fashion that, majesty is the best word. you do it in the president's house. >> not only majestic. the monroes actually befriended [indiscernible] when they lived in paris. the president originally ordered 50 pieces of mahogany furniture. he was told by the french that mahogany was not appropriate. this is what he got in its place.

>> here is a tweet. "did the monroes face any lingering problems in the white house due to the burning?" what state of repair was it in when they got there? >> it was not ready in march of 1870 when monroe became president. they lived in another house for several months. on june, monroe left washington and went on a four-month tour and his family went back to virginia. he returned to the president's house and at that point, it was ready for occupancy. they began moving furniture in. the furniture they ordered was not ready. he used his own personal

furniture. they borrowed furniture from elsewhere. it was a haphazard way to furnish the house. some of the rooms were still empty. the house was in pretty good shape. it was not like it was when the adams moved in. it was in fairly good shape. there was not furniture for it. >> i will take a call. watching us in virginia, you are on. >> hi. i had understood that elizabeth monroe suffered from poor health. i do not know if it is true or what she had. i was wondering if that affected her ability to be so public and social when that was so much a part of the politics vs. dolley madison. is there any information about how she was able to function socially with poor health? >> that is a great question. that is part of why she was an almost invisible first lady. she had serious health problems. she had excruciating headaches.

it was thought she suffered from arthritis. there were a number of people who believed she may have had a late onset epilepsy, known as the falling disease, at that point. that is something that would have been kept a secret from the public. one of the byproducts of her poor health, she also had stand in her place her daughter, eliza. it is her daughter who is responsible for a number of these actions blamed on her mother. it gave off an aura of snobbery. the first white house wedding of the president's daughter took place.

eliza took over preparations. it was she who said, this is a family affair. you talk about those 500 or 600 people. and number of them thought they should have been invited to the wedding. for the historical reputation, we have access to that, but we do not have her side of the story. >> to make connections, during

her second term, somebody was beginning to fill in the social gap of washington and that was adams. she used the network to campaign for presidency. >> the adams were much more socially oriented. they had weekly suarez of various sizes. the monroes did not go. they felt it was improper for the president to attend these sorts of private functions, particularly in his second term, when there was a scramble for the presidency, including his cabinet members. he wrote a letter to his attorney general about something and at the end, he said, i hope you will come visit us in virginia. you are always welcome. >> it feels very modern. >> what happens is we have a one-party state. we now have the politics -- a second term was be set from the beginning with this jockeying for 1824. >> up next in texas, what is your question? >> going back to a former and at the end, he said, i hope you will come visit us in series, what was president monroe's relationship with his

vice president and who was the vice president? >> it was the most obscure vice president in american history. that says something. >> tompkins had been a wartime governor of new york and was chosen as a running mate because he had been a strong supporter of the madison administration during the war. also, the new yorkers were unhappy with the luck that virginia had on the presidency and the vice president was chosen for political reasons. chosen for political reasons. tompkins was horribly in debt as governor. he was responsible for borrowing a lot of money. it literally drove him to drink. he became heavily alcoholic to the point he could not preside over the senate. they were friends. by 1821, he was totally vice president and who was the incapacitated and he died shortly after his term as vice president. he may have been more prominent on the national scene had he

lived longer. >> on twitter -- >> it is a great question. there are a lot of americans who are french sympathizers in their politics. from the early days, europe was at war, and there were lots of americans remembering the

assistance during the revolution who sympathize with the french revolution. one of the great stories, we should probably ground the time they spent in france. >> we will do that next. >> then i will save this story. >> why do we not move on to that? after a call from mark in los angeles. you are on the air. >> please tell us about her relationship with the lafayettes. and how she saved mrs. lafayette from the guillotine. >> be careful with this. >> why were they in france? >> they were in france in the mid 1790's. james had been appointed the u.s. minister to france. they arrived to paris a week after pierre had been guillotined. it was the height of the reign of terror. lafayette had been forced to flee france for not supporting

the more radical elements of the revolution. his wife was not able to leave. she and her mother and other family members were arrested and imprisoned. her mother was executed. morris, who had been minister before monroe, had tried to get her out of prison. morris was not popular with the french government at all, since he had condemned the revolution and said he supported the monarchy. when the monroes came, they staged a very dramatic event to draw attention to elizabeth monroe. excuse me, to madame lafayette. they hired a very expensive carriage. elizabeth monroe dressed herself in her best and went to prison, asked to see her. they did not know what to do. they wanted to see who this person was coming in this carriage. it was the wife of the american minister. she met with madame lafayette. she basically made her case a

public one. she was released a couple of months later. it pretty much kept her from going to the guillotine and did lead to her release. the monroes enabled her to go to austria and join her husband. her husband was in prison in austria. she got out of prison in paris and went to austria and voluntarily went to prison in austria so she could be with her husband. >> what were americans' views of this rescue? >> i do not know if they knew about it at the time. the story does not get told

until much later. what we know most about it is what monroe wrote in his autobiography. it was not published until years later. this story did not become current until well after the event. >> james monroe met eliza in new york city when she was just a teenager, 17 years of age. virginia became an important part of their lives in between their various political postings. we will show you two places important to them next. >> the james monroe museum has been in existence since 1927, when his great granddaughter had

an effort of preserving his law office that existed here in the city of fredericksburg in the 1780's. we had the largest assemblage of artifacts and other information related to the family that you will find anywhere in the country. elizabeth monroe was a true partner in her husband's career and a good sounding board for many of the decisions he had. for in of the policies he had. she was someone who her husband could go to for valuable advice. with the items on the table here, we go through an arc of her life. she had a heritage of a well-developed sense of style. she had shoe she is emploid that we believe were her mother's, of fine construction, from london, which she conned to use into her lifetime. as the mistress of oak hill, the farm the monroes had in loudown county, she was responsible for maintaining the household

accounts, and she did so on an i'very memo pad. it could be written on with a charcoal pencil that could be wiped off when they were done. the relationship that mrs. monroe had with her sisters was strong bond and in very much the style of the time, in giving a gift of sisterly love, she presented to one of her sisters in the 1790's, jewelry made from her own hair. jewelry made from human hair began to be common place in the 1th and especially the 19th semblingries. later in the 19th century it's associated with mourning and memorializing deloved ones but it can also be an expression of a very personal sign of affection. really the essence of a personal gift. music was an important part of elizabeth monroe's upbringing and life.

she appreciated music throughout her life and was trained in playing the pee yaw know. have an aster pee yaw knowforte -- an aster pianoforte that we believe would have been used at the white house. elizabeth monroe had a well-developed sense of style and image. she did not have as well-developed a budget due to the long years of public service her husband put in. but they were, especially on their foreign postings, able to make good deals. she combined elements of high quality with versatility. e have necklaces and their other jewelry in aqua marine and citrine, they can be worn with or without the pendant. a brooch or bracelet or choker

are all possible with these amethyst jewelry pieces. the monroes came up here after purchasing this property some ,500 acres and made this their permanent home from 1799 until 1823. mrs. monroe, who was a sophisticated new yorker, as she moved south to this farm, had to adjust to what we would call plantation life here. as far as we know she adjusted to it very nicely and her day would frequently again down here. she would make sure that all the reparations that needed to be -- preparations that needed to be made for the meals of the day took place in a correct and fastidious fashion. she was in charge of that. in charge of the -- what they called the servants but they were house slaves, making sure the house slaves made all the preparations and then she in

turn would make sure that some meals were put together. sometimesing some of these meals were quite sophisticated meals. while the meals here were much simpler than what she would find at monticello, the monroes did like to go to monticello for those extraordinary meal, but nevertheless mrs. monroe was capable of putting together some extraordinary dishes here. here we are in the dining room. a meal would begin sometime after 2:00, maybe as late as 3:00. it would be earlier depending upon the season and the light available. the table is a hepplewhite, it can be opened up so 12 people could sit at the table. the monroes had a corner cabinet much like this one. the nice thing is this was made just 70 miles west of us. inside what is particularly significant is that you see the monroe white house chinaware.

the monroes established that each president would have china of his own. before that, presidents would bring their own china from home. the monroes brought this chi in to the white house during monroe's administration between 1817 and 1825. we count ourselves lucky that we have what we do. >> how important was virginia in understanding a lit -- in understanding elizabeth monroe? >> monroe made a joke later in life, a friend who was a member of congress from tennessee married a woman from pennsylvania and took her home to tennessee and there was a little trepidation about whether she would adapt or not and monroe wrote to him and said, i'm sure she will do ok, mrs. monroe was a little uneasy about leaving new york, but she's become a good virginian. so she seem to have had fit in

the life very easily. something along those lines, i think that really said a lot about her character from very young, is, as we mentioned, she was very young, she was 17 when she married monroe. he was 28. she was from new york. he was a member of the continental congress. in october of 1786, he finished his term in congress they went to verming. she left her family, with whom she was very close, all of her friends, twone fredericksburg, virginia. went from new york city to fredericksburg, which was a river port in virginia. didn't know nebraska. they bounced along the roads from new york to fredericksburg, not knowing where she was going, what it would be like when she got there. she was just shy of 18, she was seven months pregnant. so it must have been a grueling trip. i think it indicates the sort of stamina, the strength she had that she was willing to make that short of -- that sort of

trip and she could do it. >> the monroes had three children, a son who died in infancy, and two daughters. we talked about one of them in particular. we have about five minutes left in this shorter version, there's not so much documentary evidence about this first lady. and the question comes from someone who calls himself president pondering, this will wrap up our understanding. how involved in politics was elizabeth monroe. how might she have used the monroe doctrine? >> i don't mean to -- have viewed the monroe doctrine? >> it's realy john quincy adams who wrote it. elizabeth didn't write it. everybody else has gotten credit for it. monroe did say at one point, he refers to her as his partner in all things and one senses, although there's a lack of documentation, that that would include sharing his political

secrets with her. but i don't think of her as a -- certain he in the modern sense, as a political figure. she was certainly aware of what he was doing. we only have one letter she wrote but there are letters in her handwriting that she copied for him, either made copies to end send to others or to keep. she was certainly aware of what was happening. they were together for so long and they were so close that it's inconceivable that they did not discuss public matters. she was very much well aware of what was happening. >> having lived through the french revolution, the reign of terror, she would have had strong opinions about the approach. >> yes. >> rachel in pensacola. >> yes. i was wondering, back to the blue room, did president or mrs.

monroe actually pick out most of the decor and furniture? does anyone know that? and i love c-span, you guys rock. >> thank you. >> you know, i don't think he stipulated -- president monroe sent off the order but i don't think he stipulated specific pieces. he wrote to contacts, to merchants that he dealt with in rance and some -- chandeliers, we need chair but not real specific design. although he did want american symbol he wanted the eagles and these sorts of things. but he -- they undoubtedly talked about this. when they were abroad in europe and friends would write and ask for them to buy things for them,

it was usually elizabeth who did the purchasing. >> jennifer sherman offer this is observation on twitter. the monroe china is beautiful, simple and classic. the first presidential china and at least one person in the audience gives it a thumbs up. bring us full serkle, what should we know about elizabeth monroe's tenure as fers lady? >> elegance. she brought a sense of style. she was known for her beauty, for her sense of fashion. but mostly, for her elegance. bringing a sense of real style. if i was going to compare her to a modern first lady, not so modern anymore, 50 years ago, but very much like, i would think, jacqueline kennedy, with that sense of fashion and style and elegance she brought to the white house. >> daniel preston, thank you for joining us.

and richard norton, we're going to have you stay with us. in a few minutes we'll move on to our next first lady profile, luisa katherine adams. >> she was the only first lady born outside the u.s., luisa katherine adams -- adams, writing about he loss of her one-year-old daughter -- -- and in a letter to her son in

1825 about moving into the white house. >> lieu oh wee is a catherine adams in the white house almost disappeared. the public side of the job, i don't think, provided much pleasure. >> she's sort of an unsung first lady who deserves much more exploration than she has received. >> the relationship between louisa and john quincy is distressing. i don't think he realizes what a

treasure he had. and it's interesting because his father did. >> john adams talked to her. ab-- took to her. abigail never realy did but john did. >> she was born in england, educated in france, and remained a foreign pornlte to -- personality to many of the adams, but not to henry as a world traveler hymn. >> she was very well educated, very sophisticated, socially, i would say, and she sort of entertained john quincy's road to the white house. >> she was not happy about returning to washington as the wife of a congressman. >> louisa catherine adams essentially became the campaign manager for her husband, john quincy adams' run for the president by dominating the washington social circuit. following a contested election, their four years in the white house were a turbulent period in the white house and washington society.

her relationship with john quincy adams and his parents, abigail and john, in a life that encompassed diplomatic posts in berlin and russia on the road to 1600 pennsylvania avenue. welcome to our continuing series on "first ladies: influence and image," in partnership with the white house historical association. our next first lady is louisa catherine adams, wife of john quincy adams, j.q.a. we have two consultants. ms. matthews, we learned there was not much documentary evidence about elizabeth monroe. how about louisa catherine adams, what exists? >> quite a wealth. she kept diaries, intermittently she wrote biographies and memoirs, there are hundreds and hundreds of letters of hers. quite the contrary we have quite

a bit of her thoughts and feelings from her own point of view, both reflective and contemporary as the events were taking place. >> a guest a few weeks ago suggested that in her research she saw louisa adams as the first modern first lady. do you agree with that? meaning she developed a sense of self. >> in some ways she has her own cause. she works with the washington female orphan asigh psalm -- asylum so that's somewhat mod herb, having a cause she was involved. in she does work politics in her parlor in such a way as to help win the presidency for her husband, in her own way. >> richard smith, explain to people how the presidency was won in 1820. what -- it was a very different system than we have today. >> it was. everyone in monroe's cabinet, it seemed, among others, wanted to

succeed him. and that included john quincy adams, his secretary of state. the popular hero was andrew jackson, the hero of the battle of new orleans, and a controversial figure in his own right. so there was a multicandidate field new york one got a majority, either hofe popular or electoral vote. in both cases jackson came in first, adams came in second. so the election went to the ouse of representatives. henry clay threw his support to adams and that was enough to win hem the presidency which turned out to be a poisoned chalice because from day one there were charges of corrupt bargain, they hung over the adams presidency. i think it's safe to say adams himself sounded almost apologetic in his inaugural address. it was the election of 1828 began almost before he took the

oath of office. >> and you mention, in her own way, she helped him win the presidency. she began to refer to it as my campaign and it was the second path of the long road -- second half of the monroe administration where the social etiquette wars were in full force and the adamses, they had the opportunity to use social washington as a pathway to the white house. >> when they get back in 1817 to washington, they've been gone from washington for quite a while. john quincy served in both st. petersburg and london and now he's back and a lot of people in washington don't know hem. and the way the etiquette situation was in washington right now, it favors people who have been there for a while. so they want to shake things up. and one of the ways they do that is say, we're not going to call on all the senators' family first, which is how you establish a social connection. but on the other hand they said,

we are going to have these parties and you can come even if we haven't connected in the formal visits. that kind of put them in a position of power, the social leaders, because they were making the rules now. kind of trying to take back a ittle power that congress had, louisa said congress makes and unmakes presidents at their whim. they want to kind of pull a little bit of that back to the executive. they start throwing party, sociables, in 1819. some seasons weekly, in other seasons every two weeks. where hundreds of people come in, it was a subscription series they become the cent over entertainment in washington. >> one of the balls she threw was for a contender for the washington white house, andrew jackson. what was her thinking in throwing a ball for her husband's chief rival? >> so many people came to the house that night that they had to shore up the floors.

there were like 900 people who attended. but i wish i could have been a fly on the wall. louisa must have been a remarkable hostess. she had attracted attention, she did -- she'd been a favorite in the prussian court when her husband was u.s. envoy there. czar alexander of russia made her one of his favorite dancing partners. there clearly was a charisma about this woman that had set her apart in the courts of europe. comes gically, it rarely through in the american setting. you know much more about that. >> i think it surgeonly does in the sociables. she complains that even though she has no political power, everybody seems to want to know her and force her to spend time with them and she claims to be quite put out by the imposition.

but i think the same charm that she exhibits in europe is still exhibited in the united states as this wonderful newspaper account of an englishman observing louisa in the white house years, she's taking the boat and going back to quincy, and the englishman said people are just coming up and talking to her as if she's the first lady, they're talking to her as if she'd known -- as if they'd known her 0 years. she must have made people comfortable. >> you have the benefit of reading her diaries an letters. just as her mother-in-law, she has sometimes very candid views of the people she was meeting. we have one of these, maybe tell us a little about the context. here's what she wrote. i have a happiness of meeting with a varieties of these misleaders who are either not gifted with common sense or have a sort of mind which i have often met with utterly incapable of comprehending anything in a

plain way. whether this proceeds from an error in education or from a natural defect in the form eags of the brain, i leave philosophers and metaphysicians to decide. >> because campaigning is not allowed, john quincy can't come out and say, i would like you to vote for me for president, candidates can't do that, you can't ask for office directly, you have to use these subtle back channels and women were a good conduit for that and so ople would come to louisa to spread their gossip and ask for favors. she doesn't always -- she knows she can't trust these people, she's not naive. a lot are spreading false gossip, false information, they're mislead, they all have their own agendas. she's aware of the political game going on. she's not terribly a fan of that. >> we welcome your questions on louisa connecticut run adams and

john quincy adams. -- on louisa catherine adam and john quincy adams. >> i was going to say you read that quote and realize instantly why there was an instant bond formed between louisa and her father-in-law, old john adams. >> why is that? >> john adams was a man of -- g opinions, very few -- not ctant to reluctant to share them with anyone who would listen a stern new england conscience. he and his exotic daughter-in-law seemed to hit it off at first. abigail was a harder sell. >> was it fair to say john

quincy adams wasn't the most sociable man. >> even people who admire j.q.a., and i include myself among them, would not suggest he was a modern figure in terms of outreach to people generally, but more in terms of tonight's context, he would not have been an easy man to be married to. this is a stormy relationship. and yet the adamses say things that married couples have been arguing over since there was marriage they argued over money, they argued other their children. one of the tragedies in lieu wee is a katth catherine's life, a life filled with tragedy where her children were concerned, her husband was appointed minister to russia, and she learned one of her sons -- two of her sons, george washington adams and john adams ii are going to stay

behind. she can't take her children with her to russia, they're staying behind with john and abigail to be raised as americans on american soil. she -- you get this sense of a woman who is powerless within her mearge to be making fundamental parental decisions, that they were reserved, as most decision were, for john quincy. >> but she must have had the innate desire she worked her heart out to get her husband to the white house, then she get there is and how does she enjoy her tenure? >> not very much. the white house years are very unpleasant years for the adamses. and it was apparent to everyone in the family, his son talked in the diary about how sad the household seemed at the time. >> what made it that way?

>> i think the cloud under which the presidency began lever -- never lifts and because campaigning for 1828 begins almost instantly, louisa feels very personally the attack on her husband, on his character, some attacks on her character, her -- you know, is she not american enough? and i think that that situation really did not -- they finally reached the pinnacle and it's not a happy pinnacle. it's very -- it's a stormy four years for them and the white house is not a very comfortable place to live. people coming in all the time and -- >> and here's one quote from louisa catherine adams that captures this. she wrote -- > she was accused of

extravagance in furnishing the great unsocial house. one of the controversies that marred the adams years concerned a billiard table which supposedly the first lady purchased, you know, using the tax dollars of honest working men. somehow this very un-american quality that people wanted to read into her. on the other hand, these wonderful, bizarre letters confirming her addiction to chocolate, louisa katherine often as a chocoholic, i say being married to the sourest she took her on sweets where she could. she writes about the medicinal calls of fudge. she took her pleasures where she could find them.

that's pretty pathetic. >> i would say that the shells are probably not bonbons in the way that we're thinking. she's not sitting on her sofa munching. they're the cocoa bean shell and you would steep them in water, almost like coffee and you would add milk. but she was interested in the medicinal qualities. but i wouldn't go too far on john quincy's sourness. i think there is very much an affection between the two of them and a great love. otherwise she could have stayed in againcy. >> after they lost the daughter, is it true he gave her a book on diseases of the mind >> some months later, yes. >> it's the insensitivity. louisa had by one count nine miscarriages. >> minimum five and a

stillbirth, potentially more. they're sometimes hard to read into because of how discreet they are iner that language but yes, at least five plus a stillbirth. so yes, a lot of tragedy. >> and three sons who lived to maturity. >> yes. >> if you can call it maturity. >> speaking of their family, brian watches us -- written on twitter, did having a former first lady as a mother-in-law help or hinder louisa? >> abfwal -- abigail had passed by the time john againcy attains the presidency so she can't ask her mother-in-law about handling the roles and the role has with somewhat shifted. louisa generally follows the precedent the monroes set with a more formal, reserved white house, not attending the public functions. but i think that it did help. she was familiar with her mother-in-law's opinions and the way she had carried herself.

i think that she wanted in some ways to keep that in mind and honor that. >> did she continue the entertaining she'd done to get into the white house once they were in the white house? >> no. not to that degree. the sociables were informal, there was music, there was often dancing. once they get into she white house, the entertainments are much more restricted, they're open to a lot of people, essentially they're drawing rooms, but they're not that kind of dancing -- until actually the end of their term, as they're on their way out, the last great drawing room she holds, they actually have music and dancing and people stay until 2:00 in the morning and talk about how gracious the adamses are, knowing that they are -- that they have failed in re-election and it's probably one of the greatest entertainments they had in the four years. >> next a question from leroy in kentucky.

>> yes, ma'am. really enjoying this, this is great. >> thank you. >> were the adams family, john quincy and his wife, were they god-fearing >> were the adams family, john quincy and his wife, were they god fearing people, did they attend church and teach their children things of the lord? i'm a minister so i'm concerned about this. >> thank you. >> yes. louisa's religious views evolve over time. it's very interesting. her father was unitarian. she was raised in england where that was not an acceptable in religion.acceptable she was raised in france so she was exposed to catholicism. the early years of her life with john quincy, they attend numerous types of churches, especially whoever the rotating preacher was in the capital during the secretary of state and presidency years could be presbyterian or unitarian. she ends up very much an

episcopal thinker, high church and is very, in her later years, she spends a lot of time reminiscing and reflecting on the role of religion and it's very much an important piece for her. >> next up is nick in prince frederick, maryland, hi, nick. caller: hi. first of all, thank you for this great program. i'm glad you are part of it. i live in calvert county. we have links to louisa catherine here. her uncle was one of maryland's first governors. the most we have is what of our town centers, we have a plaque. and a book where you get an impression of louisa catherine that she is very involved in the politics of washington.

you don't get the sense of whether it is just a surface or whether her words are contributing to the compromises that are made during that time. would you mind commenting on those two things? >> that is louisa catherine's birth family. in maryland? do you know of them? >> her family was from maryland. her father was born in maryland. that is very important because that is how she makes her claim that she is an american. i might have been born in london, but my father is an american. her uncle was the first governor of maryland. so, she has an important connection with maryland. she was able to use those when campaigning to get maryland to vote for john quincy adams the

1824 election. >> how about the second question, how involved was she in the politics of the time? >> it has always been murky. there is no clear why between social politicking and the process leading to x number of votes being cast. one of the great skills begin with dolly madison, who understood that more could be achieved out of the committee room, off the floor of the house, in a social setting. louisa catherine is politically and attuned figure. i don't think you would find her dictating a platform. john quincy was 100 years ahead of his time. adamst was the quincy

presidency all about? >> john quincy was 100 years ahead of his time. famously, in his first message to congress, -- remember this is a man whose legitimacy had been questioned. and yet, he introduced this breathtaking program that anticipates the new deal by 100 years. government should in the rowboat business. there should be a national university and washington. he proposed a national astronomical observatory. a white house of the sky. for this, he was ridiculed by the jeffersonian small government crowd. it did nothing to enhance his popularity at the time. it may have contributed to his defeat for reelection. 100 years later, it looks prophetic. >> hi, jennifer.

caller: hi. i am enjoying this series, i watch every week. >> thank you. caller: my question is, and it may have been shown during the program, i am sorry if i have not noticed, but the portraits you have been showing of the two of them, louisa catherine and john quincy adams, was there a big age difference between them? >> thank you for asking. but explain how they met and with the age difference was. >> there is an eight year age difference. john quincy was born in 1767, louisa in 1775. they meet in london. he is the resident minister in the netherlands. he is sent from there to london to exchange the ratification for the jay treaty. by the times he gets to london, the business is concluded so he does not have a lot to do.

what he spends his time doing is visiting the house of the johnsons, joshua johnson, her father, was the u.s. consul at london. he entertained all the americans who came through to london. a prominent merchant in london and americans would come and socialize and enjoy evenings of entertainment with as many doctors, who are all talented. louisa play the harp. he would come and enjoy the company. after a little bit of time, made his intentions known that it was louisa and not her older sister, nancy, that he was interested in. they begin their courtship and engagement. >> after they married, did they return to the united states? >> not immediately. john quincy is appointed from the netherlands of the minister to prussia in berlin. this been the first four years

of their marriage in berlin. she does not see the united states until 1801. the first four years are somewhat difficult. she has four miscarriages in the time before finally giving birth to her first son, george washington adams. that cause controversy, naming the first son after george washington and not john. >> when she arrived to the united states, it was the first time she had seen the country of her nationality. she went to the adams's home outside of boston. the place was known as peace field. we will show you that. >> when louisa and john quincy first came to the old house, they had just journeyed back from europe, landed in washington dc and made the journey up to hear.

-- here. her health was not good at the time, and the journey was very difficult. she was brought to this has to to meet her father and mother in law. at that moment she would write, had i stepped onto noah's ark, i could not have been more utterly astonished. louisa catherine had a challenge in winning over abigail adams. john adams was easy, he took to her right away. she always felt are a comfortable and well liked by him. abigail is more skeptical. perhaps due to john quincy's teasing. he only gave abigail a little bit of information about louisa catherine. he was not forthright in his intentions. it was a surprise that he married louisa catherine so quickly. abigail did not get a chance to know her. she was quite concerned, although she was an american citizen, she had never been on american soil. this was not what she intended for her son. through time, she learned to grow and love and understand

louisa catherine. through the years, they forged a very strong relationship. louisa catherine describing abigail adams as the planet around which all revolved. louisa catherine and john quincy, unlike john adams, if not live at peace field year- round. they only returned in the summer to get a relief from the politics of washington. her grandson, henry adams, remembered louisa catherine fondly. in his works, the education of the adams, he described louisa catherine and her role in this house and relationship with the family. he felt that she was the odd man out, because she was born in england and educated in france. she remained a foreign personality to many of the adams. he recollects her sitting in her paneled room, using her silver

tea pot that that she brought with her from her home in england to the old house. she would entertain both herself and many guest in this room. john quincy adams and louisa would inherit this home from john adams. i thought about selling it, but then decided that it was important to the family story to hold onto the house for future generations. >> you can visit there today. >> yes. >> wonderful. >> where the papers? >> they are at the massachusetts historical society in boston. they used to be at the old house would distill my very, but they -- library, but they were transferred to the historical society for safekeeping. >> a question on facebook from genie webber. i have read excerpts from her

autobiography, it said the massachusetts historical society was going to publish the papers. is that true? >> yes. a two volume of her autobiographical writings, which includes a record of my life, adventures of a nobody, and heard narrative of a journey -- her narrative of a journey from st. petersburg to france, and all her diaries have already been published in a scholarly edition. next year, a trade edition of these writings will be available. it has a foreword by former first lady, laura bush. >> we must talk a little about st. petersburg and her incredible journey back to meet her husband. can you tell was important about that story? >> in st. petersburg, the years were difficult areas it is cold, it is forbidding.

there are not a lot of other women there. most of the diplomatic biased to not travel with her husband when they get sent there. i have a baby girl, louisa catherine adams, and the child dies after about a year. that really devastates her mother. it is very painful. john quincy is also very much torn apart by the death. the war of 1812 has broken out here. he is sent to negotiated treaty and leaves louisa with her youngest son, charles francis, in st. petersburg. when peace is resolved and he is sure he will be returning home or sent to london, he asks her to join him. she makes this arduous journey from st. petersburg in the winter to paris with a son who is only seven at the time.

and a couple of servings that -- servants she just met that day. she does not know she can trust them. as she is crossing europe, she encounters dangerous travel conditions, and napoleon has escaped from elba and is coming back to france. she encounters the armies who greet him. she is crossing some very perilous territory in europe at this time. >> her life was in danger throughout this trip. >> here is another quote from her diaries -- it was 4:00 in the evening and the ice was in so critical a state, i could with difficulty procured men and horses to go over. they informed me i would have to make a long detour if i could not cross. >> absolutely.

>> and a carriage in the wintertime. >> again, the resourcefulness of this woman is extraordinary. >> why don't we know more about her interesting life story? why is she not better known among the first ladies? >> because john quincy's presidency has been obscured for so long, that diminished interest in her. what makes john quincy interesting to historians today is his post-white house years, for which people did not seem to think that louisa was a part of. somewhat mistakenly. i think that has really kept her from being the prominent -- and abigail kind of outshines when you are talking about the adams'. >> carol is watching in santa fe.

caller: this is a fantastic series, i love it. you keep referring to the white house, and i understand it was called the presidents house for some time. do you know when it changed its name to the white house? >> teddy roosevelt. the beginning of the 20th century. he formally changed the main to the more informal white house. at the same time that his wife is taking the house back to its more formal style and side. >> is it true that some of the exterior was painted white after the fire from the british, to cover scorch marks? that is when it began. >> it was informally referred to the man on the street did not refer to it as the executive mansion. teddy roosevelt made it official. >> a call from catherine in rockville, maryland.

caller: just wondering, was louisa ever, worker rights ever violated and wanted to do about it? >> what are you thinking of? caller: social or things like her speaking out for what she believed in. >> this is a great restaurant to -- question to talk about what role women really had in society at this point in time in america. >> she is not political, she is not speaking out politically the way that abigail did with her husband. she is not a public political figure speaking out on these things. she has her own private views on some things. her views on politics are more about how people behaved.

she is much more interested in everyone conducting themselves properly. even people on her own side. she doesn't like it when people who support the policies that her husband supported have crossed a line in terms of decorum. she is not trying to get out -- she's not an activist. i would not want to say that. >> nearly 100 years until women have the right to vote, we should point out for our younger viewers. what role they play? -- what role could they play? where did their power come from? >> there is a coda to this story. justice john quincy became more and more outspoken in his opposition to slavery, and famously played a role in the amistad case. there was something between

louisa and the green key sisters, who were pioneering activists and abolitionists of their day. i think she comes as close there as anywhere else to spelling out a sense of women's roles. >> this is an interesting time. her mother in law has passed. we think about gil adams and her famous words to john, remember the ladies. abigail's letters were becoming more published, and louisa saw an affinity between her mother- in-law and herself on women's issues. >> towards the end of louisa's life, there is the sense that she seeks an equality of the mind for women, but not so that women can run for office. it is not that kind of feminism. it is that women can better

fulfill their primary functions as mother, wife, and daughter. they had this god-given, this is where her religion comes in, but god had created man and woman equal in this way. that was how she could -- in their mind, they could be equals and partners, complementary partners, not for women to become more like men. abigail's feminism as it were is somewhat along the same vent -- bent of allowing women to become better republican mothers and wives to allow men to fulfill their calling with honor and dignity.

>> does john quincy seek re- election? >> he did. a lot of people think it was the most scurrilous campaign in history. it was not close at the end. andrew jackson denied the presidency four years earlier, overwhelmed john quincy adams. like his father, he did not stick around for his successors inauguration. he did come back to washington a couple of years later in a unique role. the only american president to this day who came back as a member of the house of representatives. >> there are a couple of first here, the first father and son to serve in the white house. the only foreign-born first lady, and the only president to come back and an elective role in the legislature. >> history repeated itself in a tragic way. john and abigail lost a son in the time between his defeat and

inauguration. george washington adams, who i suspect the pressure of that name would drive anyone off the wall, he almost definitely committed suicide. >> just when his father was losing the election? >> yes. he stepped off a boat. >> it was may 1829. the power had already shifted to andrew jackson. they asked george to come back to washington to escort family to quincy. he either fell or jumped off the boat. devastating personal tragedy. >> two years later, his brother died of alcoholism. >> 1834, it was a little bit later. >> one child survived.

what about their grandchildren and heirs? >> there are a number of grandchildren. john adams the second, he had married his cousin and had two children. --hn quincy emily said became and louisa became the guardians to those children. the younger one died in another tragedy. charles francis adams married abigail brook, and they had a number of children. they are in boston. so john quincy adams only see them during their summer breaks, because they spend pretty much all their time in washington. >> cheryl from santa barbara.

caller: thank you so much for having the program. i am really enjoying it. i was wondering if you know what louisa catherine's size was. she looks very petite in her pictures. >> do we know? >> she was definitely slender. i cannot tell you how tall she was. i don't think particularly. she remained slender throughout her life. >> i heard somewhere, about five foot six inches. herse there dresses of preserved? >> i don't know. there may be. >> after the defeat for reelection, they go back to boston and stay there for how long? >> not very long. in 1830, there was an election from another district, and john quincy accepts the nomination and spent the rest of his life, literally will die with his boots on, suffering a stroke on the floor of the house of representatives.

>> they come back to the house on f street that they built for all of the social entertaining that got him to the white house. what were their congressional years like here and especially for her? >> they don't come back to f street initially. the house had been rented out during the presidency. they come back at the end of the 1830's. these years are much better after about 1834. the first few years are filled with tragedy. things really improved. they are able to socialize and entertain and have these dinner parties, but there is number -- no more striving. they have reached all that can happen. i think that these are years more of peace. there is a lot of political struggle certainly. between her and john quincy there is something of an understanding. she knew that he needed politics in order to live. even though she had been very angry at his insistence and

going back to washington, she even threatened not to come to washington. eventually she cooled off and decided she would follow him after all. between them, mostly good years, even with all the political fights over the gag rule. >> it was a 50 year marriage. >> they had been through the worst. the white house was a thing of the past. i think she was more likely aligned with him in his congressional career. stuff that had come between them was in the past. in some ways, they grew closer in the last years. >> did she begin to influence him on issues like slavery and women's rights? >> she would not use influence in that way. and women's rights, i certainly don't think that is something that they would have really discussed in that way.

it was not something being put forward in congress. slavery they stop hurting your eye to eye. it is hard to say who influence to where they both got there on their own. he felt freer in congress to be active about it. she had family members who were slaveholders, being from maryland. both of them, they don't like slavery. they are gradual abolitionists. >> jennifer sherman offers, the adams women offered a different type of feminism. let's take a call from jeffrey in sarasota. caller: hi. i am a history teacher who grew

up in connecticut, but now lives in florida. i am very interested in the adams family. he brought up the question i had, whether or not louisa had difficulty with her father's family being from slaveholding maryland. sort of alluded to it. that was one question -- how difficult was that or her on a personal level? the other one is just a curiosity, did she live long enough to get her photograph taken? do you have a photograph of her? >> thanks for the question. are there any portraits of her? >> i don't know. there might be. john quincy had a photograph of her. i am not 100% sure of that but you should check the portraits volume of the adams papers. >> our producer is telling me no photos. they spent a long time looking. we have about three minutes left.

john quincy dies a dramatic death. >> first of all, one reason why life was him i think, better for them at the end, the public attitude toward them have changed. admirers call him old man eloquent. his career in congress was an expression of that dogged commitment to principle, even at the risk of unpopularity. at the end, it he won some of his battles. repealing the gag role that slavery had imposed on congress. he became an immensely respect to elder statesman. in february 1848, on the floor of the house, one member of congress looked over in his direction and said, mr. adams is dying.

his forehead had flushed, he tried to stand and fell over. he was carried to the speaker's office, just off the floor of the house. henry clay came to visit. louisa came, and he did not recognize her. supposedly, his last words were, this is the last, but i am content. which i don't believe, i don't think he was content for a moment. he died doing his duty. >> do we think it was a stroke? >> yes. >> how old was he? >> 81. >> and how long did she live after his death?

>> she lived another four years. she stayed in washington, and by her son's wife. she lived quietly. her health is fading. she had a stroke the following year and is somewhat invalid for the rest of her life. charles francis adams actually meets with her about a year before she dies and records in his diary how content she seemed. not that she was looking forward to death, but that she had truly resigned herself and would face the end with great courage and faith. >> you are looking at some footage of the presidential burial place. if you ever get to massachusetts, it is quite a resting spot of of presidential couples, buried side-by-side in a church. >> the church of the presidents.

>> the two memorials with flags are the two graves of the presidents themselves. we invite you to put that on your list as you do historical >> we have just a couple of questions, this is william from winston-salem north carolina. >> i remember seeing a few years ago. >> i remember talking about the -- hearing about the addams women, one of them had cancer andhad to have the surgery, this was in the days before anesthesia. >> that is actually abigail adams daughter. who had breast cancer and amos ectomy in the days before anesthesia. and she succumbed to the disease? wewe are closing here, really want to bring all of these conversations back.

go. what should louisa adams be known for? >> i think that she is a fascinating figure, the interest in her should be every much -- every bit as much as the mother- in-law. that day in london, they were there that day in washington. reflecting on those experiences. and our understanding of this world. >> a very dramatic life. >> this was part of a tragedy. through really extraordinary events. life, and domestic she suffered loss after loss

after loss. triumph, --arent that is not the note on which of the story ends. very much for your expertise at the table. thanks for being with us. ♪

>> friday night, our encore of the season of first ladies continues. season two. september 9 for a look at the life of theodore roosevelt. thewebsite has more about first ladies including the essential section, welcome to the white house. we chronicle life in the executive man -- mansion. and we offer a special edition the united states of america,

providing a profile of each first lady. this is at www.c-span.org /products. span brings public affairs offense from washington to you, with briefings and conferences -- all as a public service of private industry. c-span, created 34 years ago and cable orur local satellite provider and now you definition. in high >> coming up, the center for american progress on consolidating small school districts, then an encore of first ladies featuring elizabeth monroe and catherine adams. and later, thad allen on

federal crisis management. >> thursday the center for american progress looked at small school district consolidation. issues included the economy of scale, new governance programs for schools and the influence of technology and socioeconomics on education system. this is about 90 minutes. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> we are live this morning from the center for american progress for the panel discussion on the >> good morning and welcome to the center for american progress. i am cynthia brown, vice president for educational policy. thank you for joining us for a party but small group, but we know that you are deeply

interested in the topic for today, our own port on school district size. thanks also to the panelists for participating today, contributing to our ongoing conversation about education reform. across the nation, policy makers have begun to look at the fundamental design of our education system. our education governance structures were built in a different era, and in many states, little attention has been given to improving the organization and design the state's education systems. over time, many states have allowed some exceedingly on governance systems to evolve. in nebraska, for example, there are a number of non districts -- school districts that are non- contiguous. in other words, nested like islands within the confines of other districts. we have been long interested in the issue of school governance, and a few years ago, we and the thomas ford institute join forces to tackle the issue of governance and ask how our

system of k-12 governments might be modernized. as part of a collaboration, we released a book and education governments in january and we are planning a never report over the coming years. this paper is also part of that cooperation and it focuses in particular on the issue of school district size. the issue is timely, and many states and districts have recently been discussing consolidation efforts. in his 2011 budget address, ill. gov. pat quinn called for a commission to consider the number of school districts in the state. as governor, ed rendell also pushed for consolidation in pennsylvania and proposed

consolidating their 501 districts into 100 districts. other states including michigan and california have also discussed merging districts in recent years. we would like to talk more about these initiatives over the course of this event, but before i do, i would like to take a moment to introduce the panel. first we have charlie barone, policy director for democrats for education reform. he lives and grew up in new jersey and will give us a national and state-level look at the issues. we are are also fortunate to have with us today doris terry williams. she is the executive director of the rule school and community trust. she was previously associate professor at north carolina central university school of education. doris also led the institutions

teacher education program. now i would like to turn the podium over to my colleagues, a senior fellow here. he is the author of today's report and will delve deeper into the study and explain the methodology behind the report. after he concludes, we will have a panel discussion and some questions about the report and the issue, and then we will open it up to the audience. thank you. >> thank you, cindy. i also want to thank juliana herman for the help that she provided on this report. she did a lot of data analysis and writing while she was here at the center. i also want to thank rob hanna, who also provided a lot of work on the report.

he is not here with us today. i wanted to make sure that both of them got credit for their hard work. when it comes to education, not all spending is people. some education dollars are spent for more productively than others. some districts spend their resources well and show much higher levels of achievement than others. in this time of lagging revenues, policy makers have increasingly been paying attention to the question of whether or not we're getting the most out of every school dollar. at the same time, we have an increased focus on governance. part of the issue is that governance issues, structures, have led to haphazard spending configurations in states. in new jersey, for instance, one school district spends $50,000 per year to send their high school students to another high

school nearby. the issue is largely a governance one. in new jersey, over all, spending per student is $17,000. the two strings of work, productivity and government, have led us to ask, can we restructure our education system in ways that might save money and increase student achievement? the debate over school district size goes back centuries. efforts to reform small school districts started in the early 19th century when education was highly localized and towns and cities were the major funders of schools. as states took responsibility for education, many chose to institutionalize town and city structures as local indication agencies. dourly the early 20th-century, the push to consolidate became more aggressive, and the result of these efforts between 1940 and today, the number of

districts dropped dramatically from 117,000 to just 14,000. many areas race played a role in how districts consolidated in which did not. so did issues of wealth and poverty. whatever the root cause is, it is clear, small districts today are not necessarily isolated. in illinois, 91 of the state's 392 districts are classified as suburban. in new jersey, there are 138 suburban districts. the data is clear, smaller districts have higher costs. why? for one, small districts have smaller schools and larger overhead expenses. another issue is they have to provide students with a full array of courses, even if there are fewer students. this could mean hiring a chemistry teacher for only four

students. this problem is highlighted in states such as colorado where school districts have on average a teacher india -- teacher to student ratio of 16 to 1. there is no easy answer to the problem of small districts. for a long time, policymakers have been focused on consolidation. our report tries to put national and state-by-state estimates on the scope of these problems. let me explain how we approached it to give you the sense of our methodology. we relied on cost estimate studies produced and we used these studies to create a cost curve, and then we apply that to expenditures in the 2010 school year, the most recent available. another way to think about it, if a school district has 750 students and the additional costs associated with that was 4% to get them to 1000, we would

say that they had a loss of potential cost, and then calculated it out for the per people expenditure. these are not firm numbers. there are shortcomings with our methought -- methodology that i am happy to talk about in the q&a, but what we wanted to highlight was this issue. the other thing i want to mention is there is an optimal size of school districts. most researchers put its between 2000 and 4000 students. we made sure to exclude rural districts. we used census code to do that because they wanted to highlight a lost capacity of school districts that could function in a more productive way.

based on these calculations and the research, we uncover the following. small non-remote districts may represent as much as $1 billion in unnecessary cost. in some states, these costs were relatively large. in new jersey, the estimated loss per capacity was about $100,000 per teacher. 10 states account for $650 million in lost cost. the existence of small districts is hardly universal. in new york, we found the state's small non-remote districts represent almost $100 million in lost cost. in illinois, the estimate is more than $90 million. in other states like maryland and florida, with larger districts, there was no lost

cost associated with small districts. to address the problem of small districts, we present a number of recommendations, fully aware that there is not one of my solution here. we recommend states should generally avoid one size fits all approach is to maximizing district size. the report finds that many districts suffer from lost capacity due to their small size but there is no easy solution to the problem. the best solution for one district may not be the best for another. the evidence also suggests policy makers should take more into account the context of local districts and their needs. we also recommend states and districts reform their school management systems. we believe policy-makers should create management system that are flexible on inputs and strict on outcomes. states and districts should also take the opportunity to rethink the role the school district's play in our education system. finally, we recommend states and

districts consider regionalization and the sharing of services and resources where possible. states can ease the burden of small districts through the creation of state-supported education service agencies to increase overall productivity. i will turn to the panel now to discuss this more in detail. i am happy to answer any questions you might have. >> we want to talk about small districts, and we want to expand the conversation into what i would call legitimately small districts, which are these more

isolated, rural areas. who do you identify as your constituents? >> we consider rural, we used to locale codes 40, 41, 43 and those are school districts that are geographically apart from urban centers. some are considered remote and isolated. others are small towns. >> certainly, not those clustered around big metropolitan areas. >> no. >> that is not the situation in new jersey. charlie, talk to us about your new jersey experience? people like me think of new jersey as a suburb of new york or philadelphia -- >> you do not think of bruce springsteen? [laughter] >> i had an aunt and uncle on

the shore, but i was able to get to the outer parts of new jersey. now that i have installed in your state, could you talk about it? >> we are used to it. actually, really nice in some places, but we play that down. just think of the opening of the "sopranos." this report got me thinking a lot about new jersey. it is a unique state. you do not have one large city that dominates the state, like you do in new york, illinois, california. you have a lot of smaller cities and a lot of small towns. part of the reason for that is they are old. you have real communities, so it is different than what you have in virginia, maryland, places like arlington. they are not really towns, so they do not have the same

identification. one thing that is different, you have a lot of tourist areas, particularly along the coast. they are dense in terms of housing, but the year-round residents, the number is very low. i was thinking about cape may county. i do not know what it costs them $50,000 to send their kids to a regional school, but there are not a lot of full-time cape may residents who are there all year. in some ways, it may make sense to send their kids to the regional school. further consolidation there may be limited because they are

already going away to get this to this regional school, and they would have to go further if they would consolidate more. i am glad the report said you do not want a one-size-fits-all solution, you want something that is tailored to the state and the goal of academic achievement. >> where does consolidation fit into this? >> first, the issue with cape may, to get into that area. they are being charged that by the other school districts. the other school district had a choice of six funding formulas they could choose from to charge cape may. this highlights the broader issue -- i am no expert on cape may -- but this issue of governance structures over all where you have a lot of these suburban k-6 school districts. with that comes a lot of additional costs. back to your question, a lot of policy makers recently have been looking to the issue of consolidation. we have seen it in michigan, pennsylvania, illinois, and it seems like a one-size-fits-all approach, but the evidence is mixed across research.

you have a lot of destruction in communities when consolidation has been pushed down. a lot of additional cost with house school districts that have to work with the buildings that are closed or shut down. so this argument is not necessarily that consolidation is necessarily the wrong approach -- is the wrong approach to take. when we have consolidation first pushed, this was the 1950's, 1960's. today we have the internet, which allows us to deliver education much more flexibly, we have a better sense of managing systems for performance. the end target is to increase

student achievement. we knew this was a problem, but we need to think more broadly about how we can provide these districts with better support, whether it is regional cost saving measures or allow them greater flexibility around staffing, that allows them to take advantage of supports and capacities that are out there. >> doris, i know that some of your members have been very concerned about consolidation. what is the landscape like? >> rural is very diverse. it is difficult to say what is happening in rural america in general. what we have found is, particularly in the south and southwest, rural school districts have been consolidated almost to the hills. very large districts in their role self. we think, to a large extent, we have reached the economies of scale in these communities. that makes sense for those communities. but what happens, for the most

part, you do not achieve cost savings and the quality that most proponents of consolidation assume that you will achieve by consolidation. particularly in the rural sites, you see it increased costs around transportation, lots more travel time for kids on buses, a much longer day. we have kids getting on the bus before daylight and they are getting off after sunset. when you factor those things into the formula of what is working, what should be the response to the small school problem -- and i do not like to think of it as a small school or small district problem -- it is a situation that exists that does not have to be problematic. when we look at it in terms of dollars saved by increasing

numbers and reducing costs, i think, that is also not the right perspective for all places. what we have proposed is a focus on place. when we think about the economies of scale, it is bigger than what the dollars are that you are spending to educate a child. what is happening in that total place, and how can partnerships and other kinds of strategies come together to have a greater impact. looking at the dollars does not get at the quality and opportunities. what we are fighting also in

rural places is we have been increased concentration of children in poverty, with special needs. the research has shown us over many years, all of these things contribute to higher cost. so the cost is not just about the numbers of kids in a building or district, but also about the needs of those kids. it is bigger than just the per- people cost. >> is consolidation an issue in new jersey? >> two interesting things are happening that are affecting the mix. when chris christie first came in, he capped property taxes in new jersey, so he limited how much revenue a district could generate based on property tax structures.

that was pressure from the state to consolidate things like police departments and schools. every town wants its own police department and school system. the other thing that is interesting that is happening is there is an intra-district choice program in new jersey that is up and running now. 6000 students in that program. looking at some of the small school districts in new jersey, one is the stockton borough school district, mercer county, the trenton area. it is a k-6 school. they have 54 students. 12 right now are coming from other parts of mercer county, primarily trenton. next year they will have 17 more, so they will be between

25% and 30% of their students. in terms of numbers, not a huge impact, but it may be good policy if that could move to scale. stockton is in the top 5% of k-6 schools in the state, whereas trenton is near the bottom. of the 16 elementary schools, 16 of our primary schools, or they are focus schools, which means they have large achievement gaps. a lot of other districts are looking into this. stockton is not the only one doing this. some financial pressure from the state to consolidate because they are limiting when you can raise at the local level. at the other end, you have a new revenue source for schools that may be good policy, and it is working in the other direction.

it is hard to say how this will play out over time. it is interesting how these two things are operating -- >> what about the race of the kids going to stockton? >> almost 100% white in stockton. it did not have reece data for the kids transferring, but there has to be some integration, i would think. trenton is a majority-minority school district. it could be -- it would be interesting to look at the race numbers. that is a good question. >> i want to talk about race in small districts. in the report, you talk about a

north carolina county where there are three different school districts, two of them have only black, only one majority white. i take it race was the reason they were created? i think you live in the area. >> it is a very hot issue in that county, and in fact, in the state. the county has school -- three school districts. most of the districts in north carolina are county-wide districts. this county has three school districts. a smaller district is probably 97% african-american. then there is the county district itself which is also predominantly african-american. then there is the smaller one that you mentioned. they have been fighting over the consolidation issue for quite

some time. there is the assumption that if they consolidate, kids who are in the county district, the smaller african-american district, will have more opportunity, will fare better educationally. the white district is terribly against consolidating, of course, for reasons, but what is often missed in the conversation is the economics of those communities. this school district is separate from the boldin school district, predominately african-american, by a bridge, interstate 95, which crosses the main highway through town. as you cross under the bridge, you are hit by a totally different world than you see in

run of rapids. you have lots of hotels and businesses. weldon has a tremendous economic history, but it is in total decline. you have high rates of poverty in the two african-american districts, a high rate of poverty in run of rapids, but not as high as the other two. so they have historic free underperformed in test scores and that kind of thing. what gets cut out of the conversation is the differences in the districts, the impact of poverty. that is not to say that poverty is an excuse for low performance, but when you do not have the resources, when you do not have the opportunity, the

funding to do extensive learning there has been a lot of research on the impact of poverty on school achievement. which is again why we try to take a bigger view, understanding that what affects achievement in schools is not just what happens in schools. there is a bigger piece, it is about place. it is about what kids have the opportunity to do and participate in the outside of school as well. kids in higher resource communities, families with greater resources, are able to have those extended learning opportunities that allow them to keep up and accelerate during off-school time. kids in poverty do not have those opportunities. and then, of course, there are historical issues around race

and oppression, those kinds of things in the south that are playing out in the situation that you describe. >> have there been lawsuits tried to dismantle this? >> there is a lot of activity with the civil rights project at unc chapel hill, looking at the issue of equity around that issue. interestingly, recently, the county commissioners for the county of halifax provide local funding for all three of the districts. but they are anti-consolidation. recently, one of the members of the county commissioners made a motion to consolidate the district.

he knew that the motion would fail. but what they did was table the issue for two more years, unless he chooses to bring it back up. so when you think about that, what will happen if those districts are actually consolidated and they are still generally locally, financially dependent on this white body that has been totally anti- consolidation from the beginning? >> as many folks know, i have a background in civil-rights enforcement. although how you prove discrimination by the law with conservative courts -- it has been more constrained over the last 40 years. still, i wonder if there is a racial pattern in how they consolidation from the distribute the money. today do it on per capita, but

not based on need, like poverty? >> a local support for school districts in north carolina basically comes from property taxes. even if you distribute to the weldon city schools, they share the property taxes. it is not equitable at all. it is a low property -- >> they do not do it on a county-wide basis. they do not take the county property tax and each of these three districts get a per-people amount, weighted amount. >> no, or property tax comes from your district. if you have those different districts, that is when you have. >> the big consolidation going on that people are watching around the country in is in memphis. of course, -- it may have something to do with small districts outside of memphis,

but that is a very racially- charged effort. the thing that has interested me about new jersey is the racial aspect of the small districts. listening to you talk about the origins of small communities, i suppose they changed very dramatically when the migration from the south, particularly during world war two, during the transition to the chemical and defense industry -- my own father could not enlist because he worked in the defense industry and was prohibited from enlisting. they needed him on the home front. he lived in new jersey. the question i have in my mind is, now you have these school

districts in new jersey, heavily white ones next door to heavily black and hispanic ones. i have always wondered about the racial motivation in drawing the boundary lines, but that may not have been what happened. it may be a part of african- americans coming up from the south to take jobs and move into communities. i do not know much about the history of new jersey to really make an intelligent comment about it. as a native, charlie? >> it is interesting. you hear about north carolina, and your mind already goes to racial discrimination. in new jersey, -- it is up north. part of the motivation has to be racial, at this point. new jersey is drawn in an incredibly complicated way.

you have cities, towns, something called townships, counties that also have government in new jersey. you can tell that there is a different level of service in the hire minority, low-income towns. you can see fewer street lights. if it has snowed -- you know, my street is 75% african-american. our streets do not tend to get plowed when it snows. the next street over its 75% white, they tend to get plowed. i do not know if it is the way they drew the boundaries and if it is anecdotal, but some of it has to be racial. even if it is not, your point is

still valid, that you have these isolated the urban areas like camden, patterson, newark, pleasantville, which is a troubled school district. that is one reason why this inter-district choice thing intrigued me. you could have the -- rhode island schools are doing this where you have schools on the periphery and you can leverage small schools. >> it makes a lot of sense and certainly people on the right have argued that we should have the small districts to foster that, but for that to work, we need to provide these other supports. new jersey has been innovative in some ways of treating this shared superintendent program. districts can lessen administrative costs.

even looking at charter management organizations, to think more broadly about how you might create virtual support and capacity building for disparate school districts that allows them to grow and shape. the choice alone can provide some levers, but also thinking more broadly about ways that we can be more thoughtful about the management that will make this work. >> i totally agree. i do not think choice will do it alone. in california, -- to me, the charter management organization example raises this. a good follow-up to that would be, what thing to do a larger entity do well? in california, what the sacramento do well?

it will be a pretty short list. i do not think it is a coincidence that the states that have tended to have more accelerated to an achievement are smaller. maryland, delaware, massachusetts, louisiana, which is unique in some ways. we could have a debate about whether it is good or bad what is happening in the louisiana. the small school thing is in that mix, nested in that mix. what does a school and do well, what would be better to farm out to a larger entity? you do not have a lot of that farming out in a lot of states. not so much in california, new jersey. this superintendent sharing program is interesting and hopefully somebody will study that. how large do the other entities

have to get to take on certain tasks in order to be affected? >> i think your paper and the position that one size does not fit all is the right position to take. inter-district choice may help in some cases, but there needs to be real choice, if that is the case. it has to be about quality and kids, as opposed to the politics have to get to take on certain that we see around choice right now. in the places that we were, in most of the rural communities, high poverty, already consolidated, inter-district choice is often not an option. there are transportation costs. north carolina had a cap of 100 on its charter school program. that has since been removed. now we have charters popping up all over the state, but they are

not held to the same kind of responsibilities for students, for transportation, food programs, and those kinds of things. if you are going to exercise choice, you have to be in a position to transport your kids to school, too nonparticipation in the school lunch program. that will exclude many students and that means they do not actually have a choice, except to stay where they are. the other part of that is, -- for example, in northeastern north carolina, and this is true in other states in the south. there is concentrated poverty not just within an individual school districts, but in the districts that are contiguous to it. so if i have a choice, i am going from my district to a

district that is very much like my district. i think the better strategy there is to do what we know works, to improve student outcomes. one of the things that we are seeing, and i wish we could see it more, is full service community schools. for example, the report talks about facilities. if the schools are consolidated or if enrollment is declining and you have extra space, so to speak, one of the ways we can get to the economies of scale is by paring down the barriers between schools and service organizations and all these other things that happen in the

community so that -- we have this situation in my home county. there was one high school and the school board and district got on board with other schools and pulled out kids into three other smaller high schools within the county, in a high- school building that was built to accommodate 1000 kids. you pull out 400 kids for a new tech school, another school, and that leaves a handful of kids at the high school. so what do you do with all that extra space? to get to economies of scale, one, we could put health clinics in those schools. students and their families would have greater and easier access to the health care that they need. there are lots of other services that could go in there.

senior programs that could get students to bond with older citizens in the community, mentors, and that sort of thing. if we look at the unit of analysis as a space for development, as opposed to individual programs, we can get to greater economies of scale and address it in a more efficient way, a more full way, those outer school issues that impact school's success, as well as those family support issues that need to be addressed in order to insure greater success. >> are you a fan of the effort in mcdowell county, west virginia? >> i am. >> there is a great effort to bring all kinds of support services.

>> with the reduction of resources, they will have to build those partnerships. that is where a lot of lost productivity comes, when you have a crack transportation program for the senior citizens, transportation program for the senior citizens, for the schools. and then when the school board need transportation to go on field trips, to get the kind of experience they are not getting in schools, and then you have the church bans here being unused, the senior citizen vans being unused, we are wasting resources in that way. i would rather see partnerships and true collaborations within the place as the greater response to the small school problem. i know you talk about small districts, but again, the district conversation always

ends up focusing on schools. as districts consolidate, they tend also to consolidate schools. so the services, the relationships get to be much more distant, so we have kids who are more alienated, less connected to caring adults, and have less opportunity to take advantage of what we believe to be greater opportunity with the larger schools. >> actually, your argument for services is relevant to urban areas as well. they do not have the transportation issues so much that you are talking about, although, transportation always seems to -- the efficiency of transportation always seems to follow the income level of a community.

just as charlie's example of snowplows on snowy days. so i want to open up to the audience for questions that you might have about these issues we have been talking about. please tell us who you are. >> mindy. i am a sociologist. this is for dr. williams. i remember reading that canada was doing some interesting things with its rural schools, using technology in all sorts of thoughtful ways. i wonder if you could talk about interesting developments that you know, in terms of how you are using these new our opportunities to give kids access to interesting courses, a teacher training, opportunities to see other students from other

parts of the state or country. >> good question. we have supported a number of efforts. there is a foundation in the appalachian region in tennessee which has a consortium of school districts where they have brought together -- i think they got a grant to help with this -- but they are using distance learning to fill the gap in curricula, programs at small and low-resource schools. we saw this happened some years ago in missouri with a product of your working with called education renewal zones. the idea that small schools do not have to hire a teacher, for example, for two or three kids. they could use technology. that is what they are doing in the appalachian region.

provide those courses that the school are required to provide if they are going to be able high school, graduating kids, an accredited academy, but they do not need a teacher physically there. the difference between that kind of arrangement and when we see as a virtual high schools is that this consortium brings together teachers who are already in the region who are certified and have the content knowledge, who are trained to deliver in that technology format in a way that is engaging to students. so you were able to provide the chemistry course for foreign language courses, but you do not have the teacher in the building. sometimes, that effort is hampered by a lack access to the actual technology that is required to do that, bandwidth and that sort of thing. even in lower resource

communities where they have the technology, they do not have the support to maintain it. lots of times, they are just unable to continue in those kinds of efforts. the other thing that we see it is partnerships between schools and higher ed, offering these courses and filling in the gap as well. you also have a growing phenomenon in rural places, partnerships with local community colleges, so you have more course offering offered in partnership. some of it is a blended format. i always prefer that. if you are unable to bridge the transportation issue, then that is fine. that is different from a virtual school, and of itself. i am not a fan of full virtual

schools. lots of times, the content is coming from somewhere out there, not necessarily place-oriented, not necessarily what the local schools and especially need. if you have something like what north carolina has, nclearns, a technology-supported curriculum space, where teachers around the state developed in gauging curriculum, they place their work on line, and other teachers have access to that. it gets to the issue of teacher time. we have lots of resources where teachers get preparation for multiple courses.

it helps with those kinds of things as well. so, yes, the use of technology is preferable, in my opinion, over consolidation. >> it has to be relevant for the small districts, but in your report you talk -- in your district in new jersey, there is no way they could have enough teachers -- >> administrative costs are a small percentage of the cost of the districts. even if you are able to consolidate, you could only say the numbers vary -- but most schools are spending their money on teachers. when you look at colorado, districts that have less than 1000 students, is to it-to- teacher ratio of one to 12, other larger districts, one to 16. that is where technology could be a real savings mechanism, if used in a thoughtful way. >> do you know if technology is

making a big impact in new jersey schools? >> i do not know. i am not saying that choice will not work. or the quality is not an issue. new jersey is different from other places. you have small school districts that are single school districts, but they're pretty nearby other districts drafted whereas in rural areas, you don't have that. the other thing that is interesting about this, 8 for 10 years ago you could not have this conversation because everything was small is better. especially if you wanted gates funding. i think technology and more innovative approaches will change the dynamic of size,

whether it is for technology in rural districts, or other things. public impact is involved in something called the opportunity culture. they are doing important things, trying to maximize the role of thing that works, particularly talented teachers, and get them to as many students as possible in a way that does not require you to staff up. in that case, you are pooling a resource of talented teachers, but the analysis could get down to the classroom level where it is making a difference, particularly for a smaller school that just cannot come up with the resources to pay an additional teacher. it is a mix of technology and human capital, where you have not taken people out of the equation, not 100% for travel, but the creative mix of small and scale.

>> we are working with public impact ourselves and we will have an event in october which will look at extending the reach of teachers and the technology culture. we have a bunch of questions. >> thank you so much. my name is dr. moyer. i teach in one of the local colleges here. i first question is to the president of your research. in your recommendation, did you factor in the issue that doris talked about in north carolina where there is a tendency for certain schools to not really except the holistic approach to the type of structure that could

be helpful in elevating the academics for everyone? and if you did, did you consider things that had not happened in new jersey -- you are from new jersey? with some of the research that we did, we found out there were in one of the research we did, we looked at public schools in new jersey. the capital spending for a child to more than what they paid have a person in that school for a year. back to the walkoff.

at finland -- they say that finland has the best in the world, when you look at what is best for the child, having these psychologies and people -- iake care of issues summit up by saying, even you have theses, stairway structure. that happens to be because of the [indiscernible] >> we agree. what is your question? >> can you tell me in your three search how you intend to push it forward? specific project, we

looked at a narrow slice. we know there are economies of scale that operate in school district we knew from previous work that use all these very small school district in places where they did not seem like they should naturally occur, right, like in suburban new jersey or on the outskirts, areas of chicago where you have these very small school districts. so what we did is use these professional judgment studies to create this economy of scale and then use that to look across the nation. so we did not look specifically at the issue that you brought up, which is how can the communities become more full- service, we really just looked at a very narrow slice for the specific report that doesn't dig into how can you rip -- figure out what is the associated cost or potential cost and capacity of these smaller school district. >> i would refer you to a lot of other work we have done here at

the center. finance equity, we have numbers of papers about it, looking at sea in equities you are talking about. also about community schools. actually, doris once in a paper for us on community schools in rural areas, and we are advocates for equality. but we can't -- we don't take on these big, broad issues in everything we do. this is looking at this one particular issue. other questions. >> hi, i am sasha with the superintendents association. i had a question for charlie. i am also a jersey girl, so i personally think there is a little bit more going on to the christie property tax caps, but i just wanted to say that i was wondering in your research how much you look at the inefficiencies that are created

when education service issues are working with districts because to me it seems like that is more of a half measure that should be explored. i know there is one in middlesex. i do not know how common they are in jersey compared to new york. if consolidation is the answer, i was just curious what the research says about the efficiency that can be as a result of education service agencies doing everything from administration of taking care of hr, taking care of special education services, i mean, they can do a lot for small districts. and rural district that are small as well. before we kind of go to the consolidation and what the pros and cons of those are, i just was curious if either of you could speak to what you know about education services and their ability to really save district dollars but also do so in a effective, student-focused way.

>> one thing on the school finance of i want to touch on in and i will get to your question, school finance is tied up in this. i have got to do it, jeremy. [laughter] i agree with you, what you said about christie. one thing they are doing it that by basically telling districts you are going to be able to raise less local money, it does but more of the pressure on states to come up with the money that they can validate. illinois is kind of the opposite example. you have the lowest state contribution to k-12 education pretty much in the country, and a lot of the schools in the areas are islands of wealth. one high school, which is not far from chicago, but is an island of wealth where they do extraordinarily well. and they like it that way. i know governor quinn had tried to do something around schools consolidation.

i wonder if part of the deal in a place like illinois could be we will encourage you to consolidate, but we will chip in more money as a result into the state public education system both in terms of taking the burden off property tax, and trying to make things more equitable from the state level. i don't know the research on educational service agencies. i know from having been a hill staffer, asa and other angencies to come to us a lot and want to preserve their role in the education system, and we gave them the benefit of the doubt on that and let them stay involved. i do think we keep getting back to the question -- what is it that you want to consolidate, and what is it that you think might work better at a broader level?

a lot of this could be done more strategically. you are going to share superintendents, it might be a good idea, and you could still have individual districts, to pair a superintendent of a district that is doing very well with one that is not. again, where i live, there is a high school a few miles in one direction, very low college entrance, very low college completion, very few students take ap classes. it is a middle-class school. so it is not going to go under priority, it is just going to float unless somebody says something. and the other direction, i high school with similar demographics, twice as many kids. take ap, get good scores, and the college, complete college. it would be nice if the state said hey, when you have something that is geographically close, and what district is doing better than the other, maybe it makes sense to turn management over, if the superintendent wanted to do it and say hey, you seem to have a

good team and you are doing as well. and so that most of the education service agency model, but it is more strategic in the sense that it is built around trying to build entities where they already have a proven model that is working well and invest there. >> well, in your paper you do discuss -- >> the paper goes into some length discussion of this model as one approach to tackling this issue, both specifically as it exists in new york and has been executed, and delaware has started to experiment with this for a long time. relatively small, you have let students and delaware than you do in new york city. for a long time, state law did not allow them to do any joint purchases whatsoever.

that is something we recently pushed through. the issue though i think that we have to keep in mind is that ultimately this is not going to be a major cost-saving for school district, and most of your money is in teachers. so while i think this is important, and my paper goes a long way, to shine a light on these approaches, and i think the cmo's, not that they are ancillary, but they provide a way of thinking about how we manage school district that is different in the way that we do now that can provide a model, rethinking how we pay teachers, how we build teacher ladders, how they are reaching for students, are really going to be key if we want to reach more students, increase student achievement, while keeping our eye on the bottom fiscal line. >> a lot of things that may develop, particularly where there are smaller school district, you will see centers like regional centers take on

responsibilities around teacher evaluation, and perhaps even professional development from highly effective teachers. but you could share observers, evaluators among schools as well as districts. that will be better in certain parts of the country. other questions? >> thank you for putting on this panel. my name is sean. my most relevant affiliation if i attended a very small public school in illinois, graduate class of 1998. i wanted to ask you about are their constituency that are affected in the wake of consolidation? i went to a school that had been consolidated in the past and looking for the potential of being consolidated again. it seems to me that anecdote of

glee when a town loses their school, that you seek lots of loss and community identity and vitality. you see the communities age, people tend to move where the schools end up. you see businesses dry up and property values drop. at least it is conceivable that efficiency the cost for students, you see losses in that community's economy and their kind of identity because a lot of these small towns, the school is what kind of brings the town together. so i was wondering if the panel had any thoughts about that. i know that small, rural districts where the focus of the report, but it has been brought up. >> that was one of your main points. >> i absolutely agree with you. there have been a couple of studies that looked at what happens to communities when they lose their school. you are absolutely right. which is again the reason we have to consider place. it is not just the bottom line dollar, cost versus students in the school. because the cost of educating kids has to be part of -- we

have to consider what happens in the broader community and the support around that child when we consider cost. again, i think we really want to achieve economies of scale and increase productivity that we will look beyond the school. right now, we have summary policies in place that send our children from school into the criminal justice system, for example. we have a real problem with mass incarceration, and our kids are being put into a system at younger and younger ages. we don't hear a whole lot of pushback about what it costs to house an inmate for a year. so the costs $17,000 to put kids, you know, the catalog for some school districts per child,

to educate a child, and we are spending 3, 4, 5 times that amount to house an inmate, then what is it that we need to do? what are we really trying to do? if we want economies of scale, let's look at the bigger picture as well in figure out what does it take to really provide the opportunities for every child to have an excellent education. what does that cost? and let's do that. if we do that on this end, then we can reduce all this cost of these fancy new prisons and all of these things that we are billing to house the kids that we are not educating. >> yep.

>> that is one thing that it does. >> i'm here with education week. the question that you just asked, but the district they came immediately to mind was those tiny, this tiny district in michigan that went bankrupt and now they have to dissolve a do not know where to send their kids, but i was thinking about this question of -- does building political will for this consolidations, i mean you talk about this, working with the place and you are in, but it's not like the question in new jersey is what is the place? is it the township i am in, should all the schools be working together in the township? the school district that are drawn out as they are now, in these strange considerations -- configurations. i have not read the report yet, but i wonder if you talk about how do you build clinical will to make changes to things that may have been in place for 100 years where people may have ties to, you know, to what exists.

>> one solution that has worked in a some areas is just putting incentives on the table, this is what iowa has done. and i believe it also happened in kentucky is to sort of say if you want to consolidate, we will provide you over the next five years with these additional dollars, so it is not something that is necessarily coming from the state as a top-down mandate, but it is something that school district can provide for themselves so that they feel like they get other dividends from the state and types of incentives and figure out if that type of approach works best for them. there has been a number of school districts over the past few years that have approach in this way. >> yeah, that makes a lot of sense to. the issues that cynthia has been bringing up regarding race and other things in geographic areas. it seems like there is a role for a facilitator or something else to step in and start having

the conversations that go beyond the financial incentives to go about, and how we bring communities together, what is our community, really? >> we need more local advocacy than we have right now. there are a lot of dollars being put into advocacy around education issues right now. but not a lot of it is aimed at local issues. even the stuff that is being done at a statewide level could focus more on local issues. there is no group in new jersey that is really following up on this report. there are a lot of questions that the report raises, and in return for this, i had to track down some information that was not easy to get. no advocacy organization had put together. you do have a segregation issue here, it partly has to do with the way boundaries are drawn. so how do we push forward on that?

i also say it has got to be fairly pragmatic. you have to be able to say something good about what christie did, even if you did not vote for him. he is not going to get a lot of credit, and again i'm not thing that's is a solution because there will be some democrat that will say we cannot say anything about what christie does hurt for most of us in the room, we have got to get past that. and it works in both directions. you have on the republican side just anything that this is a union they consider school reform, even in school reform happens around. outside of the local unions pushing back, you don't have people at the local level trying to address those issues around what would make education better for kids.

it is spotty around the country, but with all the resources being put into advocacy right now, even if the war on local, if we focus on local issues where this is more local. >> i do think -- your question about political will and races really interesting to look at in the memphis, shelby county situation because the memphis vote is to disband their school district. and become a part of shelby county. a lot of folks think of memphis, it is heavily african-american school district, but it is not an all african-american school district. memphis itself is a racially- mixed city.

what i am not sure of is how the votes went down to abolish their school district. so there was clinical will, whether it was one race or it multi-racial, there was political will to do that. on the other hand, i say most of the political will is negative around this, but still i have worked on the issues of school desegregation and integration in one way or another my entire career. my first job was investigating segregated schools for the office of civil rights. and my view is this is very personal about school integration is that it is an issue that never goes away.

about the time you think all, my gosh, there is no hope, you see a growing number of school districts, rick kahlenberg at a college organization has written a lot about socioeconomic integration, which had a big racial effect. big. they are trying to integrate their schools on a socioeconomic basis with very strong racial implications. it is growing in number. i think as the country becomes more diverse, as gap income wealth rose, i think you do see education leaders at local levels and communities around the country that are willing to tackle that issue. so that is political will. is it very organized? or in some kind of national movement?

no, not particularly, but i do think it is an issue that never quite died, thank god. >> i think the question of political will is a good question. there is a lot going on into advocacy, but there is not a whole lot of will to even talk about the real issues of race and socioeconomic in the context of schools. and school performance. we tend to look, again, at dollars and test scores. and if there is this perception of broadly -- and the communities now that's we are post-racial, we have got a black president. so there is not a lot of will or space to really talk about those racial issues that are still very present with us.

integration of schools -- it is going to continue to be an issue. but as we look, for example, in the south again, where we see a growing concentration of children of color in public schools -- many of these schools and school district are much more segregated now than they were 20 years ago. so there is a growing issue around those things that we have not as a public prepared to talk about or willing to talk about and to tackle. >> just a jump in on this, to answer your question more specifically on this type of community building of political will that it is very much a local issue. it needs to be done from the ground up. there was a study done a few years ago by this sociologist and canada who was looking at communities that were growing more racially diverse over time.

when they started looking at the communities, they found some population of people who are more racially diverse trust of their neighbors less, but when i started to interview those people more closely and look the people who actually communicated with their neighbors of all races, those people actually -- their levels of trust increased. so i think that when we think about how we're going to deal with these issues, these kind of local advocacy organizations and trying to build this up from the ground up as opposed to sitting in a state capital or in washington saying we can sort of figure out ways to create these types of communities as much as they are organic forms. there are things we can do to support that type of work, what also realizing that it is something many to come from the communities themselves. >> we have to remember that local political will is formed within a broader context. so the images that we see in the media, the kinds of messages that are put out with respect to diverse population helped to

form local will or the lack of it. again, it is all connected. we have to call on the media to do a better job, a different kind of job in creating the images that it creates. >> all right, oh, jeremy, we have to hear from jeremy. he used to work your with us. >> i'm jeremy with the house of education workforce committee. what -- i have a question -- one of the regulations in the report was to create focus management systems. my guess is one of the goals was to increase productivity and efficiency, and that may or may not have to do with consolidation if we move to performance management systems, could you just -- can any of you talk about that a little bit more?

you started to do that. if you want to talk about the federal level, that is great, but if not, that is fine too. but what are some of the ways you think those management systems can help us improve efficiency? >> for a long time, we sort of had a factory mile in education. we were focused on students coming in and those types of input. i think when we think about what we have done now in education, from the federal level, we have been very specific about outcomes. but we have not actually open up schools to do things in new ways. we have lots of regulation around that that is not allow for new types of blended learning or virtual schools. it is not love students who perhaps are doing better on exams to progress to the next level.

so we have kind of created a system where we have been very persistent on the outcomes, but have not been opened up in enough ways to allow for that innovation to occur. so when you think about what are ways that might increase productivity -- look, if you are a superintendent and you get a fixed amount of money to spend on school technology, you would be an idiot to not spend the money. you get that technology money, and you spend it on whatever technology you can buy. it creates a system and a culture -- that is the rational thing for that superintendent to do during if we move to student funding ways or other ways that allow for focused on trying to make sure that all students are achieving, and you get your money, and you are allowed to use it anyways, technology might not be the best way to teach algebra, but it might be a good a great way to engage students in physics or english language arts.

sigh think about when we think about that input more the focus then output, that is the thought that goes behind it. i think for me productivity model, it is specifically important because you want to have ways in which local leaders are able to use their dollars in innovative ways. our productivity reports, now a few years old, we did find good examples about the village in massachusetts that was able to save money by combining their i.t. department of the local village with the school district. there -- that will not work in l.a. unified or new york city, but that is an example of ways where you can be more flexible in tackling these issues. >> all right, last question. >> on cable one, you have a list of the 10 states that have the largest test potential. i got these questions, on the

state level, it is a very small percentage but what are the percentages look like if you grant that down into the press that particular district? what is the largest saving her district, and what does the range of savings look like? overall, it looks like most of them are pretty small, but it looks a couple have 1% savings. >> it depends on -- it is a curve, and it is not linear, so your biggest savings would come from your smallest school district. so actually don't recall if we had a school district of 20 students, but that is where -- right, because we are saying however far you are away from 1000 students, you get a certain amount of -- if you have 999, you might us get a 1% savings, but if you have 20 students, you get a savings along the type of curve.

so we say how much money would you potentially save if you were a school district of 1000 students? we don't know for sure that this money is in fact wasted. some school districts have been doing some really cool things with it. maybe they are spending this money on some great filters. -- on some great field trips. we don't know. we are just there saying we know the economies of scale of this in education. we try to look at it across the country so that ignores all sorts of significant variations in terms of what the school district look like. together, we wanted to highlight this is not a rural issue. what we see it the top state, which of the largest numbers of districts with this type of unnecessary cost or loss of potential capacity, new jersey, is not a state that people would come to mind when i think about losing money when it comes to economies of scale and education system.

>> could i just -- >> yeah, sure. >> i would like to comment. i guess anyway, it is sort of a pushback because generally what happens in urban or suburban, trickles down to rural, we do a biannual report called viral i guess anyway, it is sort of a pushback because generally what happens in urban or suburban, trickles down to rural, we do a biannual report called viral matters, and our last report, we looked at the prevalence of small schools or small districts in rural. more than half of rural schoolteachers are small by the definition that we use, which would be less than the median size of school district in the country, which was 500 thirtysomething kids or something like that. even with that low bar, more than half of a rural school district would be considered small. if we used 1000 as the measure,

then we are looking at perhaps 75%, i don't know, of rural districts as a small. if we see that as a problem, then we are seeing rural schools in rural districts and rural education at the problem. it would be more inequity issue than it is now. i want to underscore your point that one size does not fit all. that's because it costs more to educate a child or when investing more dollars per child in some of the smaller schools does not mean that that is a waste of resource. that we really have to look lace by place, and we have to consider demographics, we have to consider economics, we have to consider a whole lot more than just the cost per pupil. >> well said.

i want to thank the panelists for doing this report, and thank all of you for your intense interest in this topic. it is a little different than a lot of the topics we usually discuss from the stage around education, but it is a very important one, and in fact what proportion of kids are in rural areas, by your definition? >> [indiscernible]20%-23%. >> a very significant part of our population. so thank you very much, and thank you for joining us. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] c-span, our on encore of "first ladies" with elizabeth monroe and the wii's catherine adams.

that is followed by c-span's town meeting. later, the former coast guard confidant on federal management. >> on the next "washington journal" -- a look at race relations in the u.s., co-author of love and black-and-white. later, jeff with the census bureau discusses state and local government. live every morning starting at 7:30 eastern on c-span. >> friday, president obama holds a news conference from the white house. he is expected to take questions about his canceled

meeting with russian president vladimir putin. we'll bring it to you live starting at free copy and eastern on c-span. -- 3:00 eastern on c-span. month, we are showing encore presentations of season one. each weeknight at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, programs on every first lady from martha washington. tonight, elizabeth monroe and the lease catherine adams. -- louisa catherine adams -- louise catherine adams. ♪ >> elizabeth monroe was a true partner in her husband's career. they were a love story and absolutely devoted to each

other. elizabeth monroe had a well- developed sense of style and image. this is a woman who knew how to carry herself with great elegance. >> it is called the era of good feeling. >> this is a woman who spoke french. >> very great beauty. she received is seldom anything in the white house. she hated it. >> dignity, civility. those are the words that come to mind. >> elizabeth monroe served as first lady from 1817 to 1825 as a time known as the era of good feeling. coming up, we will explore her life and what were not always happy times inside the white house for this woman born into a well-to-do new york family. she married james monroe at the age of 17 and traveled new york extensively with him. she brought with her to the white house a certain french sensibility. welcome to c-span and the white house historical association's "first ladies." we will look at the life of elizabeth monroe. let me introduce two guests. daniel preston and richard norton smith.

gentlemen, welcome. the last program was dolley madison. she really used the social forum to advance her husband's political agenda. what was elizabeth monroe's approach to the white house? >> she and dolley madison were great friends. they were at a very different temperaments. dolley madison was social by nature and was happy to get in her carriage and go visit all day long. elizabeth monroe wanted to stay home with her family. she was devoted to her daughter, her grandchildren, and, at the white house, that is what she really enjoyed and that is what she wanted to do. she wanted to be with her family. she did not like large crowds. she was very uncomfortable at the large receptions the president had. she was very charming in smaller groups. when there was a small circle of friends together, everyone praised her charm, her affability, her conversation, said she sparkled. just a very different type of person. >> explain washington in this time and how important social was to political. >> it is interesting.

these years were known as the era of good feelings. you could probably take issue with that in the second term. by that point, we were as close to being a one-party state as any time in american history. the old federalist party had died off. there was a standoff that most americans were willing to consider a victory. we had established once and for all our independence, and it was a time of actually great boom in the country, a physical expansion, and a number of states came into the union during monroe's day. washington city remained a very raw, incomplete place with dirt roads. in some ways, elizabeth monroe suffers for her strength. they are both seen as somehow alien. she was born in this country. see had her blossoming overseas, and france especially. the monroes became famous for the frenchness in which they approached life in the white house. and you can see it in the furniture they bought and the food they serve. there was also an element that took exception to a first lady

who somehow did not seem quite american enough. >> let's take a look at statistics about america in 1820. it is a booming country, with a population of 9.6 million. 23 states. that is a 33% growth since the 1810 census. slaves in the population numbered 16%. the largest cities, new york city, philadelphia, and baltimore. boston fell off the list. >> there were only three roads in 1800 over the appalachian mountains. during the monroe years, you have the canal being dug in new york that will transform the economy. you have the road under construction from the capital to what is now west virginia. we had a whole debate going on about internal improvements and what the role of the federal government should be and all that. this is a country poised for

economic take off. he presided much like eisenhower presided over a period of peace and prosperity. >> as you work your way, how much evidence is there about elizabeth monroe? >> there is not a lot. based upon what her elder daughter reported, at some point after he left the presidency, monroe burned all personal correspondence. there is one letter that survives that is written by elisabeth. there is one letter from james to her that survived. what baffles me and drives me nuts is there is only one letter she wrote to somebody else. she had extensive correspondence with her sister and friends and these letters do not seem to be anywhere. anywhere. i do not understand why not. it seems like somebody would have kept some of these. consequently, having firsthand evidence of what she thought about things, we do not have. there are letters monroe wrote to his daughters, to his two sons and laws, to his political advisers, that talk about family matters. he wrote letters home talking about meeting mrs. monroe, other women in washington recorded in their diaries. economic take off. he presided much like eisenhower there is a fair amount about

her. we do not have really anything from her point of view, which is very maddening. >> what we know from what we have about her relationship with her husband? >> they were devoted. they were apart for a couple of months here and there. throughout their 44-year marriage. usually, they were together. there is a wonderful letter. samuel from new york wrote his wife. he had been at a dinner at the white house when jefferson was president and it was right before monroe left to go to france to negotiate what became the louisiana purchase. he wrote, monroe has a fine feeling. he cannot stand to be from his wife, so he is taking her with him. that was pretty much their attitude. he was devoted to family, as well. that is really what they wanted to do. if they had their choice of how they would spend their time, it would be with their family.

>> this program is interactive. we invite your phone calls. you can reach us at -- let me turn to a facebook poster. "we have heard elizabeth monroe did not like being first lady." >> she did not like the public parts of it. she married james monroe when she was a member of the continental congress. through their entire adult life, he was in one public office or the other. she was very much used to him being a public figure, being the governor of virginia, being abroad as a minister of the united states serving as

secretary of state. to go to the white house was not anything that unusual. it was not anything unexpected. washington thought about her and people who visited washington. it was not anything unexpected. people had talked about monroe being president for years. it was assumed sooner or later it would happen. as far as what the public thought about her, i do not know. we know what people in universe. there were 200 members of the house of representatives, about 50 senators. and that is a very small there were at a handful of cabinet members, a few foreign dignitaries, local people. the washington social circle was maybe 500 people. that was the world of social washington. it is a very small group of people.

that is who met her and reflected on her. people did not know her. when monroe was president, he did two tours around the country and they were phenomenal because no one ever saw the president. no one ever heard the president talk. we cannot go through a day, hardly. you have to be sealed up to go through a day without hearing the president's voice or to see an image of him. a man in massachusetts wrote in 1870 that for the first time, he had seen a picture, an image of president monroe. james madison gave three speeches during his presidency. thomas jefferson gave two. people never saw the president or heard the president. there really is not a public perception. it is a good question. but it is a different time.

>> the white house was burned by the british and the madisons had to leave while it was being constructed. the monroes moved back in. how important was this symbolically? >> even by then, the white house had become america's house. one of the reasons why its occupants have been targeted often for criticism, much of it not fair, it is because we all think it is our house. mrs. monroe would be criticized for an alleged obsession for fashion. she paid up to $1,500 for her gown. it was alledged she painted her face, applying ruche. as silly as it sounds now, it takes us back almost to a debate at the very beginning about what kind of nation this would be. >> it really reflects to this day the monroe administration, the blue room at the white house. we will show you this clip next. [video clip]

>> if i could go back to one time in the white house, i would probably go back to the monroe period. the united states began to come to life.

monroe thought the era of good feeling would last forever. and political parties would dissolve. i think that would be the period i would like to listen to what was going on. in furnishing the house, james monroe and his wife were into french everything. he spent a lot of money bringing these things, such as these clocks, from france. many of the things he acquired are still in use.

>> when you see our earliest things, many of them are in the blue room. we have the wonderful chairs and sofas in the room. they were acquired by president monroe from france. congress in 1826 passed a law saying the furniture in the white house must be american manufactured if applicable.

this room is much more of a period room. it is really a place where the monroe's would feel the most comfortable. they would walk in and say, i understand this room, a furniture we brought. this is wallpaper of our vintage. >> it sounds like speaking french might have been as controversial then as today. >> yes. it goes back to the beginning of washington and the first presidency of trying to balance the new republican standards, simplicity and openness, but at the same time somehow maintaining a dignity and a majesty for the national government.

how do you be open but at the same time present the country as being something special, particularly for visitors? for them, the white house became the tool for doing that. monroe was praised. people who met him always commented on what a plain, straightforward person he was. then you look at how he furnished the white house. it is very different. monroe very much understood the importance of symbolism. it was to present the united states in a fashion that, majesty is the best word. you do it in the president's house.

>> not only majestic. the monroes actually befriended [indiscernible] when they lived in paris. the president originally ordered 50 pieces of mahogany furniture. he was told by the french that mahogany was not appropriate. this is what he got in its place. >> here is a tweet. "did the monroes face any lingering problems in the white house due to the burning?"

what state of repair was it in when they got there? >> it was not ready in march of 1870 when monroe became president. they lived in another house for several months. on june, monroe left washington and went on a four-month tour and his family went back to virginia. he returned to the president's house and at that point, it was ready for occupancy. they began moving furniture in. the furniture they ordered was not ready. he used his own personal furniture. they borrowed furniture from elsewhere. it was a haphazard way to furnish the house.

some of the rooms were still empty. the house was in pretty good shape. it was not like it was when the adams moved in. it was in fairly good shape. there was not furniture for it. >> i will take a call. watching us in virginia, you are on. >> hi. i had understood that elizabeth monroe suffered from poor health. i do not know if it is true or what she had. i was wondering if that affected her ability to be so public and social when that was so much a part of the politics vs. dolley madison. is there any information about how she was able to function socially with poor health?

>> that is a great question. that is part of why she was an almost invisible first lady. she had serious health problems. she had excruciating headaches. it was thought she suffered from arthritis. there were a number of people who believed she may have had a late onset epilepsy, known as the falling disease, at that point. that is something that would have been kept a secret from the public. one of the byproducts of her poor health, she also had stand in her place her daughter, eliza. it is her daughter who is responsible for a number of these actions blamed on her mother. it gave off an aura of snobbery. the first white house wedding of the president's daughter took place. eliza took over preparations. it was she who said, this is a family affair.

you talk about those 500 or 600 people. and number of them thought they should have been invited to the wedding. for the historical reputation, we have access to that, but we do not have her side of the story. >> to make connections, during her second term, somebody was beginning to fill in the social gap of washington and that was adams. she used the network to campaign for presidency. >> the adams were much more socially oriented. they had weekly suarez of various sizes. the monroes did not go. they felt it was improper for the president to attend these sorts of private functions, particularly in his second term, when there was a scramble for the presidency, including his cabinet members. he wrote a letter to his attorney general about something and at the end, he said, i hope you will come visit us in virginia. you are always welcome.

>> it feels very modern. >> what happens is we have a one-party state. we now have the politics -- a second term was be set from the beginning with this jockeying for 1824. >> up next in texas, what is your question? >> going back to a former series, what was president monroe's relationship with his vice president and who was the vice president? >> it was the most obscure vice president in american history. that says something.

>> tompkins had been a wartime governor of new york and was chosen as a running mate because he had been a strong supporter of the madison administration during the war. also, the new yorkers were unhappy with the luck that virginia had on the presidency and the vice president was chosen for political reasons. tompkins was horribly in debt as governor. he was responsible for borrowing a lot of money.

it literally drove him to drink. he became heavily alcoholic to the point he could not preside over the senate. they were friends. by 1821, he was totally incapacitated and he died shortly after his term as vice president. he may have been more prominent on the national scene had he lived longer.

>> on twitter -- >> it is a great question. there are a lot of americans who are french sympathizers in their politics.

from the early days, europe was at war, and there were lots of americans remembering the assistance during the revolution who sympathize with the french revolution. one of the great stories, we should probably ground the time they spent in france. >> we will do that next. >> then i will save this story. >> why do we not move on to that? after a call from mark in los angeles. you are on the air. >> please tell us about her relationship with the lafayettes.

and how she saved mrs. lafayette from the guillotine.

>> be careful with this. >> why were they in france? >> they were in france in the mid 1790's. james had been appointed the u.s. minister to france. they arrived to paris a week after pierre had been guillotined. it was the height of the reign of terror. lafayette had been forced to flee france for not supporting the more radical elements of the revolution.

his wife was not able to leave. she and her mother and other family members were arrested and imprisoned. her mother was executed. morris, who had been minister before monroe, had tried to get her out of prison. morris was not popular with the french government at all, since he had condemned the revolution and said he supported the monarchy. when the monroes came, they staged a very dramatic event to draw attention to elizabeth monroe. excuse me, to madame lafayette. they hired a very expensive carriage. elizabeth monroe dressed herself in her best and went to prison, asked to see her. they did not know what to do. they wanted to see who this person was coming in this carriage. it was the wife of the american minister. she met with madame lafayette. she basically made her case a public one. she was released a couple of months later. it pretty much kept her from going to the guillotine and did lead to her release. the monroes enabled her to go to austria and join her husband. her husband was in prison in austria. she got out of prison in paris and went to austria and voluntarily went to prison in austria so she could be with her husband. >> what were americans' views of this rescue? >> i do not know if they knew about it at the time. the story does not get told until much later. what we know most about it is what monroe wrote in his autobiography. it was not published until years later. this story did not become current until well after the event. >> james monroe met eliza in new york city when she was just a

teenager, 17 years of age. the monroes enabled her to go to austria and join her husband. virginia became an important part of their lives in between their various political postings. we will show you two places important to them next. >> the james monroe museum has been in existence since 1927, when his great granddaughter had an effort of preserving his law office that existed here in the city of fredericksburg in the 1780's. we had the largest assemblage of artifacts and other information related to the family that you will find anywhere in the country. elizabeth monroe was a true partner in her husband's career and a good sounding board for many of the decisions he had. she was a literate and articulate person and someone to whom her husband could go for very valuable advice. with the items on the table here, we go through an arc of elizabeth monroe's life. she had the heritage of a very well-developed sense of style. she had shoes she employed we believe were her mother's, very fine construction from london that she continue to use in her

lifetime. as the mistress of oakville, she was responsible for maintaining the household accounts. she did it on a small, ivory pad. they are ivory pieces with days of the week. your to-do list could be listed on her with a charcoal pencil and they were done. it reflects someone who was organized, busy and making use of a very practical item in her life. the relationship that mrs. monroe had with her sisters was a strong bond in very much the style of the time and giving a gift of sisterly love, she presented to one of her sisters in the 17 the 0's jewelry made from her own hair. jewelry made of human hair became very common place in the 18th and 19th centuries. later in the 19th century, it's often associated with mourning in memorializing dead loved ones. it also can be an express of a very personal sign of affection. really the essence of a personal gift. music was an important part of elizabeth monroe's upbringing and life. she appreciated music throughout her life and was trained in playing the piano. we have an astor piano forte, 1790, a british product. we believe it was used at the white house during their residency there. elizabeth monroe had a well

developed sense of style and image. she did not have as well developed a budget due to the long years of public service that james monroe put in, but they were particularly on their european postings able to make some pretty good deals on a variety of items. her jewelry is a reflection of that. mrs. monroe had elements of high quality with versatility. we have here necklaces and their associated other jewelry that are in aqua marine and citrine, each can be worn with or without a pendant. you have a couple of different uses there. a broach, a bracelet or a choker is possible with the amethyst jewelry. she had several options in her combinations. >> the monroes came up here after purchasing this property, some 3,500 acres and made this their permanent home from 1789 until 1823. mrs. monroe, a sophisticated "new yorker" and moved south to

this farm had to adjust to plantation life here. so far as we know, she adjusted to it very nicely and her gay would frequently begin down here. she would make sure that all the preparations that needed to be made for the meals of the day took place in a correct and fastidious fashion and she was in charge of that, in charge of the, what they called the servants. they were house slaves in making sure the house slaves made all of the preparations and then she in turn would make sure that some meals were put together. sometimes some of those meals were quite sophisticated meals.

for while the meals here were much simpler than what she would find at monticello, and they liked to go there for the extraordinary meals. nevertheless, mrs. monroe was capable of putting together extraordinary dishes here. here we are in the dining room. the meal would begin after 2:00, sometimes at late as 3:00. it would be earlier depending on the season and the light available. the table, it can be opened up so that 12 people could sit at this table. now the monroes had a corner cabinet very much like this one. the nice thing about this is that this piece was made in the shenandoha valley just 70 miles to the west of us. inside what is particularly significant is you see the monroe white house chinaware the monroes established that each president would have china of

his own. before that, the presidents would bring their own china from home. the monroes brought this china to the white house during monroe's administration between 1817 and 1825. we count ourselves very lucky that we have what we do. >> how important was virginia in understanding elizabeth monroe? >> monroe made a joke later in life. a friend who was a member of congress from tennessee married a woman from pennsylvania and took her home to tennessee and there was a little bit of trepidation about whether she would adapt or not. and monroe wrote to him and said, i'm sure mrs. campbell will do ok. mrs. monroe was a little uneasy about leaving new york, but she has become a good virginian. so she teamed to have fit in the

life very easily. something along those lines that really said a lot about her character from very young is, as we mentioned, she was very young. she was 17 when she married monroe. he was 28. she was from new york. he was a member of the continental congress. in october of 1786 he finished his term in congress. they went to virginia. she left her family with whom she was very close, all of her friends. went to fredricksburg, virginia, went from new york city to little dinky fredricksburg, didn't know anybody. they bounced along the bad roads from new york to fredricksburg not knowing where she was going, what was going to happen when she got there. she was seven months shy -- months shy of 18, seven months pregnant. the grueling trip and the stamina that she had to make the trip and she could do it. >> the monroes had three children, a son who died in infancy and two daughters, we talked about them in particular. the question comes from someone who calls themselves president pondering. this will wrap up our

understanding. how involved in politics was elizabeth monroe, how might they have viewed the monroe doctrine? >> i don't mean to, for years, there was people that suspected john quincy adams wrote it. elizabeth didn't write it. just about everybody else got credit for it. it's interesting. there is one point where he refers to her as his partner in all things. one senses, although, there is an unfortunate lack of documentation that that would include sharing his political secrets with her. i don't think of her, certainly in the modern sense as a political figure. she was certainly aware of what

he was doing. we only have one letter that she wrote, but there are letters of her handwriting that she copied for him to either make copies to send to others or to keep. she was certainly aware of what was happening. they were together for so long and they were so close that it's inconceivable that they did not discuss public matters. she was certainly very much well aware of what was happening. >> and having lived through the french revolution, the reign of terror, she certainly would have had strong opinions about the approach to europe, you would imagine. >> yes. >> rachel from pensacola. >> hi, yes, i was wondering, back to the blue room, did president or mrs. monroe actually make a list of furniture? does anyone know that? >> thank you. >> i don't think he stipulated, it was president monroe who sent off this order.

i don't think he stipulated specific pieces of furniture. >> he wrote to contacts, to merchants that he dealt with in france and we need chandeliers, we need design. he wanted the american symbols, the eagles and those sort of things. they undoubtedly talked about this. when they were abroad in europe and friends would write and ask for them to buy things for them, it was usually elizabeth who did the purchasing. >> general of sherman offers this view on twitter. the monroe china was beautiful, simple and classic. it's the first presidential china and at least one person in

the audience who gives it a thumb's up. our time has evaporated on elizabeth monroe. in 20 seconds or less, can you tell us what people should know about this woman's tenure as first lady, what did she contribute? >> elegance. she brought a sense of style. she was known for her beauty, for her sense of fashion, but mostly for her elegance, bringing a sense of real style. if i was going to compare her to a modern modern first lady, not so modern, 50 years ago, i would think of jacquelyn kennedy with that sense of fashion and style and elegance that she brought to the white house. >> daniel press-on, thank you so much for being here. >> thank you for having me here. >> we will move on to our next first lady profile, that of louisa catherine adams. we'll be right back. >> she was the only first lady born outside the u.s. louisa catherine adams, writing in her diary in 1812 about the

loss of her 1-year-old daughter, my heart is almost broken, and my temper which was never good suffers in proportion to my grief. my heart is buried in my louisa's grave and my greatest longing is to be laid beside her. a letter entry, it is the first tuesday and opens my campaign having given a general invitation for every tuesday during the winter. this plan makes some noise and creates some jealousy but it makes our congress less dependent on the foreign ministers for their amusement. i wish they may prove so. and to her son, the situation in which we found the house made it necessary to fur finish almost entirely anew a large portion of the apartments.

>> louisa catherine adams almost disappeared. >> she is sort of an unsung first lady who deserves much more exploration than she has received. >> the relationship between louisa and john quincy is elusive and in many ways distressing. i don't think he realizes what a treasure he had. it's interesting because his father did. old john adams took to her.

abigail never really did, but john did. >> she was born in england and educated in france and she remained a phone personality to many of the adams, but not to henry as a world traveler herself. she was very well educated, very sophisticated socially i would say. she sort of entertained john quincy's road to the white house. >> she was not happy about returning to washington as the wife of a congressman. >> louisa catherine adams essentially became the campaign manager for her husband, john quincy adams' run for the presidency in 1824 by dominating the capital city's social circuit. following a contested election, the adams' four years in the white house were a turbulent period in american politics and washington society. we'll look at louisa adams' relationship with her husband john quincy adams and john and abigail on the road to 1600 pennsylvania avenue. good evening and welcome to our continuing series on first ladies influence and image in partnership with the white house historical association.

the next installment is on louisa catherine adams, the wife of john quincy adams. we have two guests at the table, richard norton smith and meet amanda matthews. she is at the massachusetts historical society where she is a research associate for the adams papers. ms. matthews, we learned there was not much documentary evidence about elizabeth monroe. how about louisa catherine adams, what exists? >> quite a wealth. she kept diaries intermittently. she wrote autobiographies and memoirs. there are hundreds and hundreds of letters of hers. we have her thoughts and feelings from her point of view, both reflective and contemporary as the events were taking place. >> another suggested that in her

research she saw louisa adams as the first modern first lady. do you agree with that contention that she developed a sense of self? >> in some ways she has her own cause. she works with the washington female orphan asylum, so in that way it's somewhat modern having this cause that she was involved in and she does work politics in her parlor in such a way as to help win the presidency for her husband in her own way. >> well, richard norton smith, explain to people how the presidency was won in 1820's, it was a very different system than we have today? >> it was. as we said earlier, everyone in monroe's cabinet seemed among others that wanted to succeed him including john quincy adams, secretary of state. the great popular hero was andrew jackson, a controversial figure in his own right. there was a multicandidate field. no one got a majority, either of the popular or electoral vote. in both cases jackson came in

first, adams came in second. so the election went to the house of representatives. the man eliminated by the constitution, the fourth place finishing, henry clay ultimately threw his support to adams. it was enough to win him the presidency which turned out in many ways to be a poisoned chalice. from day one there were charges of corruption. they hung over the adams presidency, i think it's safe to say. adams sent an apologetic note in his inaugural address. it was the election of 1828 began almost before he took the oath of office. >> you mentioned in her own way, she helped him win the presidency. she actually began to refer to

it as my campaign. it was the second half of the -- second half of the monroe administration where the social etiquette wars were in full force. the adams saw an opportunity as seeing social washington as a pathway to the white house. how did they do it? >> when they get back in 1817 to washington, they have been gone from washington for quite a while. john quincy has served in st. petersburg and washington and he is back. a lot of people in washington don't know him. the way the etiquette situation works in washington right now, it really favors people who have been there for a while. so they want to shake things up. one of the ways they do that is we're not going to call on all of the senators' families first which is how you make a social connection. on the other hand, let's invite you, we are going have these parties. you can come, even if we haven't connected in these formal visits. that kind of put them in a

position of power as a social leader because they were making the rules now, kind of trying to take back a little bit of power that congress had, louisa said that congress makes and unmakes presidents at their with him. they wanted to pull a little bit of that back to the executive. they start throwing these parties. she has her sociable it's in 1819, some seasons weekly, and other seasons every two weeks where hundreds of people would come. it was a subscription series. they kind of become the center of entertainment in washington. >> one of these balls that she threw was for a contender for the white house, andrew jackson. what was her thinking in involving her husband's rival? >> it's simple. so many people came to the house that night on f street that they had to show up the floors for something like 900 people who attended. i wish i would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. louisa must have been a remarkable hostess. she had attracted attention. she had been a favorite in the prussian court when her husband was u.s. envoy there. czar alexander of russia made her one of his favorite dancing partners.

there clearly was a charisma about this woman that had set her apart in the courts of europe. and tragically, it very rarely comes through in the american setting. you would know much more about that. >> i think it certainly does in the socioables. she complains that even though she had no political power, everybody seems to want to know her and spend time with them. she claims to be quite put out by the imposition. i think that the same charm that she exhibits in europe is still exhibited in the united states as this wonderful newspaper account of an englishman observing louisa, this is during the white house years. she is taking the bowl back to quincy and people are just

coming up to her and talking to her as though she is the first lady, oh, we're dressed as well as she is and talking to her as if they had known her for 10 years. she must have been very affable and made people comfortable in her presence. >> you have read her diaries of these events. like her mother-in-law, she had candid views of the people she was meeting. we have one of them. tell us the context. she wrote, "i have the happiness of meeting with a variety of these misleaders who are either not gifted with common sense or have a sort of mind when which i have often met with utterly incapable of comprehending anything in a plain way, whether that's a natural defect in the formation of the brain, i will leave philosophers and metta physicians to decide." >> because campaigning is not allowed, john quincy can't come out and say i would like you to vote for me as president, the

candidates can't do that and you can't ask for office directly, you have to kind of use these subtle back channels. women were a good conduit for that. and so people had louisa to spread their gossip, to ask for favors. she doesn't always -- she knows that she can't trust these people. she is not naive. a lot of them are spreading false gossip or false information. they're misleading. they all have their own agendas. she is aware of the political game that is going on. she is not terribly a fan of it. >> we welcome your questions on louisa and john quincy adams on

the program. you can post on c-span's facebook page or send a tweet with #firstladies. >> you read that quote and you realize instantly why there was an instant bond formed between louisa and her father-in-law, old john adams. >> why is that? >> john adams was a man of strong opinions, very few, great reluctance to share them with anyone that would listen, a stern new england conscience, a profound sense of right and wrong and he and his exotic european daughter-in-law seemed to have hit it off from the first. abigail was a little bit harder sell. >> is it fair to say that john quincy adams was not the most sociable man? >> john quincy adams, even the people who admire j.q.a., i'm among them, would not suggest that he was a modern figure in terms of outreach to people generally, but more in terms of tonight's context, he would not have been an easy man to be married to.

this is a stormy relationship. yet the adams argued over the same thing that couples argued over since there was marriage. they argued over money and their children. there were small tragedies in louisa catherine's life, a life that was filled with tragedy as far as her children were concerned. her husband was appointed minister to russia and at the last minute, her older sons, george washington adams and john adams ii are going to stay behind. she can't take her children with her to russia. they're going to stay behind with john and abigail to be raised as americans on american

soil. you often get the sense of a woman who is powerless within her marriage to be making fundamental parental decisions, that they were reserved as most decisions were for john quincy. >> but she must have had the innate desire, she worked her heart out to get her husband to the white house. then she gets there and how does she enjoy her tenure? >> not very. not very much. the white house years are very unpleasant years for the adams and was readily apparently to everyone in the family, charles francis adams, their son, talks about it in his own diary of how sad the household seemed at the time. >> what made it that way? >> i think the cloud under which the presidency began, it never lifts. because this campaigning for 1828 begins almost instantly, louisa feels very personally the attacks on her husband, on his character, some attacks on her character, is she not american enough? i think that that situation really did not -- they finally

reached the pinnacle and it's not a happy pinnacle. it's very, it's a very stormy four years for them. and the white house is not a very comfortable place to live. people coming in all the time and -- >> and here is one quote that really captures this had. she wrote, "there is something in this great unsocial house which depresses me beyond expression." >> well, she was accused of, bizarrely, of extravagance in the house. one was a billiard table which the first lady had purchased using the tax dollars of honest working men. somehow this very un-american quality that people wanted to

read into her. on the other hand, there are these wonderful bizarre letters confirming her addiction to chocolate of louisa catherine adams was a chocoholic. i say being married to the sourest man in washington, she took her sweets where she could find them. apparently she had her sons and others buy chocolate shells by the barrelful and she writes about the medicinal qualities of fudge. i mean it was as if she took it where she could find them. that's pretty pathetic. >> i would say that the shells are probably not bon-bons. she is not sitting on her sofa munching. they're the cocoa bean shell. you would steep them in hot water. it would be like cofe