a visa, sometimes they come on a long-term visa. sometimes they come on a short- term visa like a student visa, and graduate to a permanent visa or green card. once you have a green card, you wait at least five years on your permanent visa before you can apply to become a citizen. many wait five years, many wait 10 years. some people remain in the country and never become citizens. a legal permanent visa allows you to live and work here but not vote, not serve on a jury, not serve in public office. you get different government benefits. what we are going to talk about is why people make that step and what happens when they make that step. what you have to understand is that it breaks down about 1/3. if you watched tv, you would think all immigrants are unauthorized. it is about 1/3.

37% of immigrants are citizens. 31% are people with permanent visas. 28% are unauthorized. the picture you see on the news is misleading. the question before us is what about this third that could become citizens and haven't? 8 million people. that is a lot of people. i was looking at the numbers -- it is a long line. 8 million people could become citizens tomorrow but haven't chosen to do it. one question is why and how can we encourage them? it would be an incredible economic boom for the country. citizenship -- the last point i want to make before i turn it

over to our panel is, citizenship is a long process of integrating. integration takes a whole lifetime for many immigrants. sometimes two generations. it has many phases. it is everything from coming in getting a job to finding an apartment, to eventually learning english and perhaps marrying an american and serving in the military. assimilation means many different things. some of them objective, like getting a job and rising up educationally, some of them subjective. getting to believe you belong here. citizenship is the capstone of that process. it is what people do when they decide they belong here and want to join the family. we want to step back from that emotional side of it and talk about the economics. making that decision, what does

that mean for you economically and for the country? i have a terrific panel here. i am going to introduce them as i asked them a first question. let's start with you. you are an economist. you're a professor at ohio university and a fellow at the bush institute. let's talk about the big picture. before we get to citizenship, can you help us understand how integration or assimilation yields economic benefits? what happens economically when people go through that process and become integrated? what happens to incomes? what happens to education levels? what happens when people settle and put down roots here? >> excellent question.

i am thinking of something james glassman said a minute ago. he said immigrants get it. but immigrants don't get it overnight. it takes time for immigrants to get it. immigrants come to the united states, maybe they earn 60% or 70% of what a nativeborn american earns. there is some argument. we won't get into that. most of them have more or less caught up with nativeborn americans in terms of income. it takes longer to catch up in terms of wealth. by the time their children come along, the second generation often out distances nativeborn americans in terms of earnings. this is true historically. it is a process. it is an assimilation process, but assimilation is something even nativeborn americans had. -- from college or high school

and goes to work and makes x, ten years later they are making 2x. immigrants have a double problem. language skills are critical. that is the most important determinant of increasing income among immigrants. they learn on the job. best way to learn english is to speak it and the best way to do it is to work and have to talk. they learn work discipline. some people come from countries where getting to work at 8:00 may mean 8:30. in the united states, it means 8:00. there is a whole host of things, colloquialisms. things that you don't learn in

english class. it is an assimilation process. it takes quite a number of years. a lot of it is learning labor market information. learning about occupational choices. you come to the country, you are limited. you have friends and relatives who helped you get the first job. you may take the first thing that comes along, but your choices are limited. over time, you build up. one way you build up is through education. immigrants tend to go to school at night to further their education. i think credentialing process of naturalization is not entirely different from the credential of getting the college diploma in a slightly different context. a college diploma tells an employer, this person is fairly

bright. probably speaks english well. probably is going to get to work on time. probably is not a drug addict. probably is fairly productive. we pay a premium for college graduates. similarly, i expect naturalization has a similar impact. a person who can say that i am a naturalized citizen is a person who is saying, i am making a commitment to this country. i want to be a member of the family. probably in employer's minds, this person is a little more committed, disciplined, capable of doing what i want. therefore, i am willing to pay a premium. the next people will speak much more. there is a premium, maybe 10%. >> you have painted a picture of

immigrants, they do catch up between 10 and 20 years. what was it like in the past? you hear a lot of people say, my grandmother spoke english overnight. all you hear in the supermarket is spanish. how are immigrants today assimilating compared to immigrants in the past? >> that is a wonderful question. i love to talk about this and i have to be careful. i am a professor with tenure so i talk forever. the -- it is the same now as it was 200 years ago. nationalities change, the accents change, the kind of dress has changed. benjamin franklin in the 1760's complained about how pennsylvania was being germanized, that the germans are

taking over and they are not the same as the english, not as good, not as smart and so forth. in the 1850s, we have the irish immigration. the irish are, first of all alcoholics, second of all catholic and all these things, and the catholics won't be able to integrate with the protestants. [laughter] i find they integrate quite well on college campuses. >> the economic benefits. >> the know nothings so you need to be naturalized. this sentiment is that the current generation is not as

good as the previous one. it has been true throughout history. the economic benefits -- in 1909, the administration said immigrants in the united states make 80% of what nativeborns make. that group had an agenda that wasn't pro-immigrants. basically, bottom line was by the end of their lives, by the end of their career, they assimilate like crazy. they are productive, they move ahead. they get it, as jim glassman said. >> great setting for where we go next which is to manuel pastor. you are a professor at the university of southern california. you honed in on a part of this in a study on the economic benefits of naturalization and citizenship.

i'm going to ask you in two parts, let's first talk about the benefits to the individual immigrant. >> let me start by saying that i want to push back on one thing you said which is that some college degrees do signal that you are a drug addict. [laughter] you want to be careful about that. i thought that it would be graceful because i am from california to start by talking about the state rivalry and making fun of california but apparently that was done already. we are hoping now that your governor is retiring that he won't spend the next two years to get usc to become usd. we did a report about a year ago called "citizen gain," which is

a great title. when you tell young people citizen gain, they are like what does that mean? what we gain in particular in naturalization. the interesting thing was that we try to control for language ability, recency of migration. >> you have to explain it without the word analysis. >> basically, we try to control for everything. it should explain a difference between citizen and noncitizen immigrants. we found that citizens made eight percent to 11% more. when you are a citizen, you have a wider range of jobs that you can move into. when you are a citizen, you made

a commitment to the country. that commitment leads you to make more specific investments in your human capital, your education. finally, the credentialing affect that you were talking about. the credentialing affect is that employers see the active citizenship as standing up for a lot of those markers you were talking about, worker discipline, language ability, etc. a couple of the things about this. steve moore asked wasn't it the case that a certain person becomes a citizen? when you look at the studies, looking at the same prison over time, you find that it is still about eight percent to 11% gain. we look at the census data and checked a cross-section.

we had information on the years people naturalized. we could simulate what the gains were over time. second, this is not a gain from legalization because we in california have been able to estimate who in that sample is unauthorized, who is authorized, and who is a citizen. very little of the gain comes from authorization. more comes from making that final step to citizenship. that is crucial in this current debate. the act of including a roadmap to citizenship is about making sure that we can actually capture the economic gains. these gains, and i know you're going to ask me a question and i am filibustering, these gains are not just for these individual workers. >> that is where we are going.

and, we have eight percent to 11% for the individual. those people here this morning can go out and ask for an 11% raise. take it now to the bigger society. what is the gain for america? >> it is a gain for the rest of us in a couple of ways. we have to realize how many kids are the kids of immigrants. for example, in california, half of our kids have an immigrant parents. the gains that they make translate into the next generation, having more resources in the house. we can focus in on the earnings gain, but somebody who is a citizen starts to feel more comfortable about going to school, engaging with teachers, being involved in education. improving the schools,

communities, neighborhoods. the gains don't stop with the families. we estimated that it is about $21 billion to $45 billion increase in earnings and spending power over 10 years. if we could take the 8.5 million folks who are not naturalized and naturalize half of them, those are the gains we would get. in texas, it is about $1 billion to $2 billion per year if you can move naturalization rates up. it is money we are leaving on the floor. >> you take half of the 8.5 million that could naturalize, you get up to $45 billion, over what amount of time? >> over 10 years. one of the things you need to realize is -- by the way if there are anybody who got naturalized this morning, don't ask for 11% tomorrow.

that gain happens over time. five to six years to get the initial boost. it probably peaks at eight to 10 years. what we know is that what we do now is assimilate over time. this is an incredibly important thing. we who have been working with immigrants need to do more to encourage naturalization. we need to be thinking what stands in the way. >> we are coming back to that. you are the executive director of the national immigration forum, leading the new bethlehem project to help people become citizens. talk where manuel was going. what are the obstacles? why is this a hard process and what is getting in the way?

>> first of all, i want to thank the institute for putting on this event and the invitation. the naturalization process and immigration law is more complicated than any other set of laws in the government. to apply for naturalization is a process that can take anywhere from seven to 15 years. that is a big range. within that range comes significant cost, criteria that the individual has to meet whether it is english or skills to adjust their status. it is not something that you can just go to the post office and pick up your paperwork. the other thing is that -- thinking more specifically about english for example -- there is a survey done in 2002 where nearly 90% of immigrants

surveyed said that they want to learn english. they believed that their economic success depended on their english proficiency. the previous panel mentioned that when you look at the data, half of the poverty gap between hispanics and non-hispanic whites is attributed to a lack of language proficiency. the obstacle is accessed. >> what about english -- what do we know about the benefits of learning english? >> i would argue that a lot of the growth for an individual's wealth can also be attributed to english proficiency. you have additional skills to present to an employer. when you talk to employers, whether they are big or small, across the skill range they are

looking for individuals with english skills. they are starving for ways to improve the english skills of their workforce. whether it is bringing in a tuition reimbursement program -- there is an incredible amount of innovative models to facilitate english learning. >> let's talk about what you do, what the bethlehem project does. how are you helping people become citizens? >> in 1915, bethlehem steel was the first company to provide english classes to their workforce. we all think, those are the good old days. the fact is, one of the leading institutions in america said we need to help them learn english. we have been asking employers like marriott, the intercontinental hotel, american

apparel, are you a modern-day bethlehem steel? do you want to help your workforce learn english and become citizens? we are finding in cities across america that employers are saying yes. they love the idea of being able to stand up and tell america that these are immigrant workers contributing to their bottom line, learning english and becoming americans. an innovative model of connecting the employer to their employee in a different way. >> it is not just that they want to sound like a good guy. it is more profitable. we'll come back. if you speak english, you move up on the job and the business retains you. >> when we first started to think about this in 2004, the boston redevelopment authority looked at the growth in the

hospitality and healthcare industries and found that the growth in occupations was going to come in areas that required a higher level of english skills. you saw the workforce have low- level english skills. until that balance was reached, the region was in a huge amount of trouble. >> eric, you are the executive director of the immigrant legal resource center. you are leading the new american campaign. to streamline access to naturalization services. i want to ask you what you do in a minute. before we get to that, you have been working for more than a decade helping people become citizens. help us get to the reality of this. we have been talking numbers, historical trends, what are the

people who you have encountered? can you tell us a couple of stories? >> sure. i also want to thank the institute. i tell people i am a naturalization evangelist. i am like a kid in a candy store today. this is wonderful. i have a very fond impression of the institute and of dallas because of this. i want to introduce you to two people actually three. i want to introduce you to abel sandoval who is typical of someone naturalizing. he and his wife are in the process of naturalizing. they came to a workshop that the campaign runs a couple of weeks ago. i was at that workshop with him. there are 200 people interested in applying for naturalization.

there were over 100 volunteers. really wonderful. abel's wife is from mexico. abel is from guatemala. he works at the university of san francisco. that is one of the premier hospitals medical schools in the world. they have three children. two are in college. one plans on being a lawyer, the other is studying business and advertising. abel fled guatemala in 1988 when he was in his late teens. he came to the united states and became a house painter. he came unauthorized. since 1998, he has owned his own business. he has eight employees and does both residential and commercial painting. he has contractors license,

fully bonded and insured and has workers compensation for his employees. he does everything by the book. additionally, he and his wife are homeowners. in san francisco, that is a pretty big leap. it is expensive to buy a home in san francisco. he told me why he wanted to become a citizen. he said first of all, i want to vote. second, i want to take the last step of becoming fully integrated because i don't plan on moving back to guatemala. i want to plant by stakes in the ground here. when i told him -- after i helped him with his application, i told him you would be a great person to go to this thing at the bush institute. can i interview you? he said, sure. he said "the united states is a great country where we have lots of opportunities and you are allowed to express your

opinions. i want to become a united states citizen and live here the rest of my life." he is a good example. he hasn't reaped the benefits of becoming -- cynthia and bernardo merino came to the united states at young ages. he obtained his green card through the amnesty program and family ties. they both naturalized in their 30s which was about 10 years ago. they went to college at the university of california, san diego. they went to graduate school at stanford. they are homeowners in san francisco, once again a big lift. they own several investment properties in san diego where they are leasing out their investment properties. they have newborn twins and are

helping to support the diaper industry. bernardo is a lawyer and small business owner with offices in san francisco and san jose. cynthia is a finance expert. she works with the director of property management in san jose. they develop affordable housing and she oversees a staff of over 50 and an annual budget of over $10 million. since she arrived, she has helped raise over $100 million for building low-income housing. that to me was quite impressive. she oversees the management of 1100 units in 700 cities. she is also on our board of directors. she is on our finance committee and helps us on the up and up. we are an $8 million and

organization with lots of employees. they both feel being u.s. citizens helped provide them financial security. they wouldn't have bought a house had they not been u.s. citizens. they would not have purchased investment properties. they didn't want to miss out on the financial opportunities. they, once again, wanted to put their stakes in the ground permanently. >> that is very important. that sense of, if you're going to stay, then you're going to invest in a whole different way. i want to come back to what you do, but i want to broaden the conversation first. we are talking about a very good story, but also a troubling story. the benefits and the uplift -- when you look at the numbers, the numbers are sobering. 8.5 million people who could be doing this but aren't. the game that you are talking

about -- about half of -- what could be done to encourage this? when we start with you and come this way. let everyone talk about people that are not doing it. how do we get them on the train? >> the new american campaign? there is a very exciting national program going on called the new american campaign. our goal is to help as many people get naturalized as possible respecting the fact that it is a legal process. we want to do it effectively as well as efficiently. our guiding principles are to create an impact in communities.

right now there are 18 collaborations. by collaboration, what we are doing here in dallas is a perfect example. catholic charities here are the leads. what we have done is help them with financing. with other support, the carnegie corporation. to provide financing to help them help as many people go through the legal process -- >> through the legal process? there is a lot involved here. you are helping with the piece that is the actual filling out the paperwork. >> exactly. helping them get over that hurdle. they partner with lots of adult schools, english language learning schools, civics learning schools, even banks and

lending circles to get the fee. they partner with lots of organizations. >> let's come down the line. you guys are working with business. what are they helping people do? >> i will use the example in washington dc. we work with marriott. our first session was with the housekeeping staff. we met two women who have been working at the marriott for 10- 15 years. they have been eligible for naturalization and the one reason they have not taken that final step is because they had a one-hour commute on the train every day. they lived in suburban virginia. they were working eight hours a day, taking two hours to get back and forth home and they have things to do at home. they were so happy to be able to

come to work and for the marriott to be able to say, we are going to extend your lunch hour so you can get the assistance you need to complete the paperwork. that is one piece. another thing that needs to be done is to look at the process. what investment can be made in terms of facilitating the process so that people are not waiting this long? so that backlogs are reduced. so that people can actually go from green card status to naturalization in a reasonable amount of time. >> the problem is a backlog? >> there is an incredible amount of regulation. if you think business is overregulated, look at the naturalization process. >> manuel, you focused on the fee, talk little about that. you have a great number in your report about what happened when the fee went up recently. >> in 2007, the fee went up to

about $680 because they have to pay a fee and do a biometric exam. in that year, we went from about 1.5 million applications to 500,000 the next year. when you take a look at it, what happened was it really hit less educated folks. for us, $680 probably doesn't feel like that much money. it is about two and a half weeks of take-home pay for an average immigrant worker. to do this right, you want to consult a lawyer, get the right number of english classes, so the costs are even bigger than you think. my best guess is that some of you going through this should have about $3000 because they want to check in with a lawyer

as well as pay the fees. that is a lot of money. >> if you have a family, -- >> for low income folks, it means they are facing a liquidity constraint. even though there are economic as well as pay the fees. gains. one thing to clarify is the english language effect is different than the citizenship effect. the language effect is about 15% boost in wages. the citizenship effect is about an 11% boost. >> let me play that out. 15% is getting to english proficiency. you're not counting that in your 8%-11% for citizenship. >> one of the things is it is good to see how business is gains. one thing to clarify is the english language effect is different than the citizenship effect. the language effect is about 15% boost in wages. the citizenship effect is about an 11% boost. >> let me play that out. 15% is getting to english proficiency.

you're not counting that in your 8%-11% for citizenship. >> one of the things is it is good to see how business is reaching out. it is good to see the kind of programs being talked about before. gains. all sectors can be involved. in los angeles, the public library has created citizenship parlors. this is where immigrants and their kids go. they take their kids to the library, there is a corner that tells them how they can become a citizen. another interesting program is the micro-loan program that citycorps and casa de maryland have organized. if somebody can give them the money up front, it is a good investment. >> we are not talking about lowering the fees. the fees go to something. we are talking about how to help people pay them. >> that is one thing. frankly, citizenship and immigration services is supposed to be self financing. maybe we should be subsidizing. we might want to consider changing the fees, like re- upping for a green card should perhaps be more expensive. >> a green card is a permanent

visa that lasts for your whole life but you have to renew it every 10 years. >> those things are basically sold out. you could raise the fees there, lower the fees for naturalization, and encourage something that we all say we think is important. >> richard, you want to weigh in on this? >> listening to this conversation, if you weigh the costs and benefits of naturalization to the potential naturalized citizen, very often the benefits outweigh the cost. you think, the time of naturalization, you have 25 more years of work, you're talking maybe $3000 or $4000 more a year in income. we have to do our economic stuff here. >> another banned word.

>> the cost is -- let's make it $10,000. the costs are still relatively small in terms of the benefits. we should try to find ways to overcome those costs. i agree with him that maybe we ought to auction off -- >> that is a long conversation. >> there are ways to finance the 680 -- 680 times one million is what? $680 million per year. >> because of the gain we are going to get, the gain of potentially $21 billion, it could be cheaper. let's go back to the businesses. i work closely with businesses. i understand how they see a bottom-line benefit in english. i am not sure i get how they see a bottom-line benefit in citizenship. we talk about the benefits of

the individual, the economy, but if i am running my flower stand or chain restaurant, what is the benefit to me of having citizens working for me? >> great question, and when we were starting the project, we had to talk people through it. the first question we got was, what if my workers are not citizens? hr people started to get anxious. first question is, what is the citizenship process? people realize that through that process people are learning additional skills. that bottom-line impact gets back to the skills that are built over the course of naturalization. it comes down to, every business yet there is a bottom-line impact, but they want to be part of a good story. they want to tell a good story to their workforce and to their customer base. >> i like that good story but i am also looking for the bottom

line. >> there is also no cost to the business. the model that has been created is that they are able to create time within the workday. that benefit is to be able to engage their workforce in a different way. the workforce fields more investments. >> that is an economic benefit. >> you were talking employee loyalty and a lot of firms that hire immigrant workers, they think this might be an easily exploited labor force. afterwards, they go, these are really hard-working folks. one way to retain people. the loyalty of seeing your company aid you and the benefits that that has for your kids, that is something that leads to long-term relationships. >> what we find in miami is that hotels are competing with each

other. they say, i got the best. my workers are really happy. it is nice to see businesses saying, hey, sign me up. >> let's do another hard question and then we will go to the audience. the skeptics -- you do these focus groups, people say they want to become citizens. even legal immigrants don't get much welfare. what is the answer? what do we say to that? >> it is mostly an exaggeration that immigrants crave welfare benefits. there are different periods in history -- you get different results. it is true that for some immigrant groups, the incidence of welfare usage was higher than it is among natives. but generally speaking,

immigrants are low welfare users. they are -- legal immigrants are avoiding it like the plague. in many cases, for legal reasons. the ones that are here legally have an extremely high rate of work participation. they work. they are hard workers. they prefer work to welfare. >> when you become a citizen, you are eligible for other benefits. i have never seen an immigrant that says that's why they are naturalizing, but there are skeptics. >> one of the things that would feed into that skepticism is, there were a lot of folks who shifted over to citizenship from the lawful permanent resident status in order to access benefits that they were losing under welfare reform.

i don't think any serious economist believes that welfare is a magnet for immigrants. when you look at the data, they do not use welfare extensively. the second thing is the rate of mobility. one of the things we saw in california is, immigrants who had beenhere longer than 30 years had a longer rate of ownership. people want to sink their roots in. they want to be independent. >> even to the degree there is welfare, you stack it up next to your $25 billion, it is not much money. >> i used to work with somebody who owned a small manufacturing plant making wedding dresses. he employed about 50 people in the garment district. he wanted everyone to get legal and then to get naturalized because he felt it was a higher

retention opportunity for him. he wanted them to stay with him as employees. he thought it was magnificent that they went through the process. >> great. this is really terrific. let's open it up to the others in the room. we would love to hear your questions. as with the last panel, we would like to hear who you are, your affiliation, and please make it a question if you can. sorry, your microphone has a please wait fore. a moment. >> i thought we weren't getting any more tough questions. [laughter] >> damion with the knight foundation. we have a new app out. my question is, you talk about the economic benefits. can you talk about the benefits

to civil society and the fabric of the country? >> just to put that in perspective, we can. our job was to talk economics. i was going to do a disclaimer because i think it is important. we don't want to think about people as widgets. it is painful to limit it to this. you don't want to be the kind of person that only thinks about the bottom line, but you don't want to be the kind of person that doesn't think about the bottom line. let's have a word or two about this. the next panel will be all about the noneconomic benefits. >> in terms of why people become citizens, they want the full rights and opportunities and protections of citizenship. when president bush said today, the most important title he has ever had is u.s. citizen, that means something to people. it means something to their neighbors. it is somewhat intangible, but it is also incredibly important

when people are dealing with -- state, local, federal or governments, to say yes, i am a u.s. citizen. that is who we are in society. i believe that that is the reason people become citizens. >> go ahead. >> despite fee increases, one thing that you see in the data is when immigrant communities feel like anti-immigrant rhetoric has gotten heated or the tone is negative, they move toward naturalization. they move toward engagement. a main benefit of naturalization is you learn about u.s. civics. english makes you more effective at school. you get more confidence that you need. we have focused in on economics because that is what we were talking about. these are people looking to get a full handle on being part of

the american experience >> asking people why they are doing it, people do it when they finally feel i belong. they don't do it to get to the other side of the fence, they do it when they feel they have gotten to the other side. they want to codify it. >> we should be creating opportunities for those who are not yet citizens to find voice. to encourage them to participate in all sorts of debates. >> eric, you're going to add. >> i have seen that in action. they become more engaged in their kids' education.

internet road watch programs, etc.-neighborhood watch programs. internet road watch programs, the other thing, the app. the new american campaign is doing a lot of work in integrating technology into the process. >> what does the new app do? >> it can help you figure out if you plug in your zip code, where the closest location is that can help you go through the naturalization process. it can help you learn the civics questions. requirements, etc. then, if you get to a real computer you can actually go through and get screened for naturalization and complete your application online with pop-ups like a turbotax type of thing. wonderful process. >> another question? we don't have another question? please, tim. you do need a microphone. >> while we are waiting, a follow-up on what was said earlier.

the economic benefits of immigration have spillover effects that go beyond what we call traditional economics. for example, the additional income associated with naturalization raises tax money. >> very important. tim? >> tim from the bush institute. you talk a little bit about what the process is like. i didn't hear any comment from the panel about whether that is a good process or not. in an economic sense or in a general immigration sense. how would you improve it? >> i was involved a couple years ago with redesigning the test. it was during the bush years. we tried to make it more relevant, still deep. i challenge anyone in the room to pass the naturalization test.

we all think we went through high school civics and history. it is harder than you think. it is a real test. you have to study. the idea of the redesign was not to make it easier but to make it more relevant and studyable. i thought it improved it. >> two things. one is, right now this process is much more streamlined than it used to be. if we were in this conversation 15 years ago, and it started with clinton but accelerated with bush, streamlining the process. now you can go from a green card holder to a citizen in sometimes as little as four months. 15 years ago, we were talking two and a half to three years. that is one positive part of it.

i do think the process is elongated. five years is a long time to have to be here. i would be a bigger fan of three years. it would help economically. >> just to be clear, five years you wait before you start? >> at five years, you apply. then, the processing can get done in about six months. but people -- the process involves this legal hurdle that we have been talking about. in new york, you see people on the subway studying for the test. people are learning history. >> i would agree that the naturalization process has gotten better over the past few years. that is a short window of time. what i am more worried about is what takes place before you get to green card status.

you enter the country on a family visa on any one of a gazillion different work visas. in some ways it is good, in some ways it is not. to adjust from that worker or family visa to be eligible for legal residence is a difficult process. you have to figure out who is going to sponsor you, how you are going to be sponsored. that can be streamlined to meet our interests as a country. streamline that window, the final economic benefit is much greater. >> the requirement that to speak english to become a citizen is a great thing. which means we should be flooding the zone with english- language classes. immigrants are so highly involved in the workforce that they need more community-based evening classes.

when you look at adult education classes, you're seeing two times the number of people trying to get in the class. people want to learn english. we need to make that more available. it is a good investment in the economy and citizenship. >> that was a great study. a couple of years ago, there was a study of how long people are waiting. i forget the numbers. in cities with high immigrant concentrations it is between four months and two years that people wait for an english class. people in the focus group are saying, why don't they learn english? in fact, they can't find a class. >> also, the million-dollar question is why isn't there 8.5 million people applying annually? those other 7.5 million, how can

we get them to that same state? it is too hard to apply. there is a fear of applying. it is too expensive. all those things are factors that work against our economy. >> which factors are the biggest deterrents? >> english-language and the fear of english. you don't have to be a college professor to pass the exam. the fear of how much english you need to know -- it is really working english. a lot of people can do it and they don't think they can. we get them to that same state? there is -- some people just aren't ready to take that step. it is really english and -- as manuel said if we flooded the system with english classes, that would be a huge impediment to get over.

>> you had a question? >> people also self rate their own english abilities lower. for a lot of people, it is a question of confidence. >> for elderly immigrants, this requirement is a huge barrier. they don't feel like they can learn english at their age. i just wanted to make two brief points. oh right, i have to ask a question. [laughter] i have one question and one correction. when we look at welfare use, we typically look at the household. foreign-born headed households actually have higher welfare usage. the reason is that they tend to be poorer and they tend to lack health insurance. their children get state health insurance benefits.

the other point -- let me ask you. from talking to people, i have heard that people naturalized in order to use family benefits that they get so they can sponsor families for immigration. can you comment on that? >> that is certainly a big reason why people take steps to becoming naturalized. i have found that back in the late 80's and early 90's that was the major reason. as a u.s. citizen, you can petition for your relatives more quickly than you can as a lawful permanent resident. in my state of california, more and more people have been accelerating naturalization. >> i am a journalist and the last question is going to be a lightning round. you get one or two sentences each. i want you to back up away from

benefits and think about benefits to the u.s. what is your sum up, bottom line, why is naturalization a benefit? >> me first? because it promotes democracy. it promotes our way of democracy, includes more people. that is what we want. >> i think of a small town in texas or the midwest, and those small towns need more immigrants and more citizens. that is the vitality. >> richard, then manuel. >> higher incomes. everyone is better off. naturalization adds to that process. >> i was at that naturalization ceremony this morning and what i realized was that it made us aware that this is a unique

country in which you can become american by understanding what the principles of the country are. that says so much about who we are. encouraging naturalization goes beyond economic and other reasons. >> thank you so much. terrific panel. >> stay there, don't leave. we are going to take a break. i just want to say that when i first heard this panel proposed, i thought, that is a strange subject. i didn't think that there was any difference between somebody who came here, got a green card and work in america and help the economy, and somebody that naturalized, other than the citizenship -- importance of promoting democracy. this is an important issue.

when you realize how much it helps the economy, it raises important policy questions. it brings to the surface a lot of issues that people aren't thinking about. in the current debate, there is dissension over the question of whether it is a path to citizenship that we want to change for unauthorized immigrants, or a path to legalization, being able to work in america. this panel is quite convincing on that point. when you realize how much it it helped america to help people get naturalized. we are going to take a 10 minute break and come back to talk to our last panel about how immigrants serve america. thank you, panelists. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013]

president obama holds a news conference from the white house and is expected to take questions about his canceled meeting with russian president vladimir putin and the debt ceiling and nsa surveillance program. we will bring it to you live it three. :00 p.m. eastern on c- span -3:00 p.m. eastern on c-span @12:00 15 p.m. eastern, we look at the health insurance marketplace and exchanges. on "washington journal conquer we talk about whether tracking. at 8:00 15 eastern, we look at race relations. at 8:00 15 a.m. eastern, we look at race relations.

at 9:00 15 a.m., the u.s. census bureau discuss state and local government finances and the health of ♪ host: what do my angelou, sandra day o'connor, jesse jackson and betty ford all have in common? they have all been awarded the presidential honor of freedom. and president obama is named the newest recipient. clinton, loretta lynn, oprah winfrey, and sally ride are among them. who would you nominate for a presidential medal of freedom? share with us this morning on "washington journal to go (202) 585-3880 four republican, (202) 585-3881 for