lot of things bush did, it is reflecting the political reality. the question for us in this us as americans, is to say, it is kind of bleak to think the united states will have to operate drones and have shady partnerships in places like yemen. it is hard work. it does not necessarily would we be willing to accept a certain inevitability as i think europeans in the 1970's accepted that there will be terrorist attacks from time to time and it's not the end of the world. this is what i think janet knap when she was department of homeland security, when she was in charge of the department of homeland security, talked about he idea of resilience.

we're beginning to see some people sighing that they don't like drones either. and so we haven't really been able -- i think that the side that wants to talk about scaling back the war on terrorism at this point should also talk about the idea that it's not a false choice to quote obama from the national archives speech between liberty and security. it's a very real choice. and we should be coming to terms with that. >> i think liberty vs. security in the various tradeoffs and how much terrorism and daniel you're willing to accept inflicteden on you would be a great other planl for us to have. >> i'm just saying i think we've had a lot of a kind of -- i think sometimes we treat this conversation like we're children and we want to believe

that we can have everything. nd we can't. i'd like democracy, no terrorism, you know, a smaller government. there's all kinds of things you want but you have to look at it in the real context. >> do you want to make the last comment? >> yeah. i actually, you know, as somebody who is not a fan of big government, i share many of those worries. i'm asked constantly about the n.s.a. stuff. i don't know enough of what's going on. but i have this guttural reaction where, no, i don't want my data scooped up vs. the analytical counterterrorism side of me saying, i want their data scooped up. there is something to be had there, a conversation to be had there. i just say that, you know, when you have that conversation, you shouldn't let it -- and i don't think you guys do this, but some people i think now are defining the current threat environment and how things are evolving around the globe with the impetus to wrap this up because they want to declare it over and an end to it.

s there's a danger that you go too far in your thinking in that and think you're just going to say it's all over with because i don't want to deal with it anymore. the bottom line is our enemy gets a vote. >> we covered a lot of ground. but there's obviously still a lot of ground we could cover. let me thank our two panelists very much. [applause] and thank you all for coming and i hope to to see you again here very soon. thanks. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> in a few moments, an encore ring of the "first ladies"

program on lucie hayes. then we look at town hall meetings being held by commebs of congress. then a -- members of congress. then discussion of electronic surveillance and human rights. on the next "washington journal," we'll discuss north carolina's new voter identification law in light of the supreme court's decision to strike down the parts of the voting rights act. our guest is myrna perez. we'll also be joined by lock heed martin vice president steve o'brien to discuss the uture of the company's joint strike fighter. the pentagon is planning to use more than 2,400 of the advanced technology aircraft in all branches of the military. at an estimated cost of $1.5 trillion. earlier this year on c-span's q&a d, a reporter discussed his trip to the lock heed martin

ighter demonstration center. >> to sit in a flight simulator that they have. >> where? >> very interesting question. just across the river this crystal city, virginia. not more than a 10-minute car ride from capitol hill. and it's part of their flight demonstration center. it looks like a futuristic kind of museum and it's a place where not just journalists can go but members of congress and their staff members and other government officials. and so it's a chance to show off the virtues of this airplane to the washington crowd. >> season two of "first ladies influence and image" begins monday, september 9, with the look at the life of edith roosevelt. all this month we're showing encore presentations of season one. each weeknight at 9:00 eastern on c-span, programs on every first lady from martha washington on.

. night, lucie hayes >> it is so unfair to her. it is a dismissive, condescending title. it suggests she is smooth talking and her function in life was to not serve alcohol. lucy hayes is so much more. as was her husband. everything she accomplished in the white house was in spite of the fact her husband's legitimacy to be president was questioned. >> she was a charming person, very delightful. nnovative. >> one of the more controversial collections is the white house china.

an article says the art was absurd. who would want to eat a lovely meal and see a duck at the bottom of their plate? >> she took an interest in public affairs from an early age. >> two causes that were important to her were veterans and soldiers and orphans, children who had been made orphans as a result of the civil war. >> she was a very devout mother. she does not neglect her children. she embraces the life. >> lucie hayes said women's binds were as strong as man's. she was the first first lady to earn a college degree. that tells us much about the time she lived in. the civil war and into a time where technological innovation nd significant social forces

usher in an era of enormous change in the united states. good evening and welcome to c-span's continuing series on america's first ladies. tonight, you will learn about lucy webb hayes. the wife of rutherford the hayes. here to start us off is a first ladies historian and author of a collection of biographies. welcome. in 1876, the country is joyously celebrating the 100th centennial of the declaration of independence and it is an election year. the election is greatly contested with no clear victor. tell us about the atmosphere with which it was at the white house. what was it like? >> susan, it is pretty schizophrenic, to tell you the truth. we had just come out of the centennial celebration. they were coming to the white house, but they do not know if they will move into the white house. the election is not yet decided.

what happened is samuel and rutherford b. hayes were in one of the closest elections in the united states at that point. and tilden wins the popular vote. there are three states that are so tight, the parties are tackling each other. the republicans said, we won. the democrats said, no, we won. hayes goes to bed thinking he has lost. they woke up the next morning and find out the republicans are challenging the vote. if they actually win the three states, he gets the number of electoral votes he needs to become president. they go through all the negotiations back and forth. there is congress involved, trying to cut these deals. literally, it is not decided until he arrives in washington, when the deal is finally set. we can only imagine the

schizophrenia, the fear, the disappointment, everything you feel. as you are on this train coming to washington. >> so worried were they about the possibility of a democratic coup that the inaugural day was a sunday. there was a private swearing-in at the white house. >> absolutely. and then he gave his inaugural address the next day. absolutely. the country itself is still very unsettled. the civil war, even though it as been over for 12 years, it is very much in people's minds. it was such an intensely personal war. everybody had been affected by it. now you are trying to figure out how you will have construction for the hayes and try to stay true to your principles. for the democrats, how can we hold the feet to the fire to give us back our land and customs.

plus, we have got all of these technological revolutions, the telephones just premiered. you have the typewriter. you have all of the new kinds of engines being done. you have labor unrests. you have great railroad strikes. you have a recession. it is sort of the first major depression we have had. the country is trying to figure out what is going on just as much as the hayes are. >> so they come to the white house with a great deal of government experience. a three term governor in ohio. had served in congress. a very popular governor of ohio. what did they do to establish their credibility when they get to washington? >> their personalities take over. they begin to try to acknowledge the fact that the election is really controversial.

he knows he has been called racture fraudulency. andrutherford fraud hayes. what he does with his inaugural address is really set the tone for this. he makes overtures to the democrats. he opened the white house up. they began to try to engage in a public conversation and tackle the issues that tarnished the republican party. the corruption of the grant administration when he said there would be civil-service reform. when he really pledges to pull the remaining troops out of the south. assuming that the governors, the government in new orleans and columbia will honor their commitment. he is trying to extend an olive branch to people, saying, i hear you. and i'm only going to serve one term so let's figure out how to

make the most of this together. >> how did lucy help in this effort? >> she understood how politics work and how to entertain. she understood how to facilitate conversation between people that were difficult. she understood how to really bring people at the table in a way that would advance her husband. she was charming and everybody loved her, despite the no alcohol. she was able to do things in a way that made him seem approachable and ethical and blunt. >> she was the first first lady to have have a college degree, and this was a time of change for women. at the philadelphia bicentennial fair, all kinds of new devices, being introduced

to the home. the hoover vacuum cleaner. early washing machines. women were beginning to take advantage of this by beginning to move into the workforce. is lucy hayes seen as a symbol for this? >> i do not think so. i think it is very easy to verstate the importance of the ew labor-saving devices and how many when it went into the workforce. women in workforce already have to work. the women who really entered the workforce by their own volition and interest really are the generation after her. when she comes to the white hughes, only 5% of women -- house, only 5% of women who work are working in what we would consider today white-collar jobs like stenographers and secretaries and professors and educators.

she is on the cusp of that. to me, the thing that is really interesting about her is how she is stuck in the middle in a way that does not make her stuck. i know that sounds weird. the suffrage movement is totally divided along the lines of race. and whether women can vote or not. lucy hayes is the first college educated first lady. she stood with surgeons during the civil war. she has seen more battles, more scars, more amputees, more suffering, than probably any first lady other than mary todd lincoln. she's not an avant-garde reformer. she is trying to find her own voice. it is hard to put her in a pigeonhole. >> on twitter, how did washington look upon lucy especially after julia

grant's presence? >> that is tricky. they look at her as lovely, vivacious, happy, genuine, and then she does a gorgeous china and the press goes insane over it, writing about how difficult it is to eat food with a quail in the middle of your plate. >> you mentioned the press. they are independently covering the first lady's. they become an object of national interest. >> yes. the press really is taken with her. they use the title, first lady, more for her than they had for anybody. even though it was in reference to mary todd lincoln. they like her.

they see her as vivacious. they see her as somebody who is different. they really do follow her in her own light. >> throughout our program tonight, we will take you to he hayes home. you see a picture of it on your screen. this is the home where lucy and her family lived before the white house years. this library museum, they are all there to show what the first lady and family were all about. we are taken inside the home to learn about lucy hayes as a political partner and about some of the causes that were important to her throughout her life. let's watch. >> this painting shows lucy tending to a wounded soldier during the civil war. two causes important to her were veterans and soldiers and

or children who had been made orphans as a result of the civil war. the painting was created to hang in an orphanage in ohio. it reflects the issues important to her. when people associated with the causes come here to visit, they would sit here in this parlor. this was host to a number of civil war veterans. the 23 fed o.v.i. was the unit that rutherford served in. the future president mckinley was a member of the 23rd, so his family was frequent guests ere. when they would gather here on the ground, when they would come in, they would sit in this parlor. lucy was a wonderful hostess. she wanted people to feel welcome. this is where they would

discuss the issues of the day. she hosted a number of political figures here for dinner, including future presidents taft and mckinley. also william shermer was a guest. as well as other local and national political figures. she is a partner with her husband. entertaining and serving at the role of hostess. that would have been incredibly important. >> joining us on our set, the director of the rutherford b. hayes presidential center, also open to the public. 24 years of his professional life was spent helping america preserve the history of the hayes presidency. we heard from allida black. your comments about the skills she brought to this job as she entered the white house. >> she was a partner to rutherford, a sounding board to him.

she was able to engage people one-on-one and to make anybody she talked with think they were the only person in the room and the only person she wanted to talk with. >> the election did not end after they were sworn in. there was a congressional inquiry. here is one quote where he said, sometimes i feel a little worried. this press and annoyance going on, i keep myself outwardly very calm -- what do we learn of her? >> she is defensive and has a bit of anger in her. >> she sounds like a good politician in her own right, ble to mask the inner.

>> one of my favorite things about that is it shows her passion to hold it in. at the end of the civil war, she was furious and everyone started talking about a reconciliation and forgiveness. she was saying, mercy is one thing but we have to have justice in mercy, which just shows her. >> i like to invite each week the participants in the program. we will go to phone calls. you can go to our facebook page. there is already discussion about lucy hayes. you can join that by asking questions or posting comments. we will mix many of those in. to illustrate what kind of a

person she is, she had lifelong interest after helping her husband on the civil war front. in civil war veterans. tell us about old veterans in the white house. >> yes. in 1879, an old 1812 soldier came to the white house to receive an honor. he is supposed to have his picture taken. when he arrives, his uniform came separately. he was distraught the sergeants stripes were not on the uniform. lucy went and grabbed her sewing kit, sat down on the floor, sewed it on and the british minister came in, saw the first lady of the united states sitting on the floor at the white house, sewing on this gentleman's rank. >> which is how we learned the story. he told it. it is important to us to move on for a bit.

lucie hayes and the tell prance movement in the united states -- temperance movement in the united states. first of all, today, we often see the expression or the nickname lemonade lucy. was she known as that at the time? >> not at all. we cannot find where it ppeared. it is one thing that has become about her. one of the things that is interesting about lucy is that she supports temperance, but never really affiliates with the women's christian temperance union, which was founded in ohio, her home state, by people that lived within two hours' drive from her. they always try to co-opt her. she comes to this from her mother's father, her maternal grandfather, who is a member of the state legislator, who made

her sign a pledge when she was young not to drink alcohol. that carried over with her. he was never really a follower of the temperance movement. >> what caused her to ban alcohol from the white house? was it religious in nature? did she ban alcohol from the white house? >> actually, no. her husband made the ecision. it was a decision partly political. he wanted to keep the republicans within the party who were defecting to the prohibition party. he also wanted to set the moral tone. alcohol was the drug of choice in those days. there were many families ruined. you heard about the sons of presidents who managed to ruin their lives with alcohol. hayes was never a

prohibitionist and never thought you should outlaw alcohol. he thought the people running the prohibition party were political cranks who would also outlaw dancing and card playing. he just wanted people to learn by education. >> how popular was the movement in the united states? >> it really takes off at the end of the century. they come in right at the beginning of it. the reason it begins to take off is when it merges with the women's suffrage movement. at the time of hayes's first movement into the white house, only 23 states could control -- allowed women to control their own property. one of the big problems with alcohol was, if women work, their wages legally belonged to their sons, husband, and they could not cash their own wages.

so men would take that and go into the is a loons. >> and spend their money on alcohol. >> the saloons gave you cheap beer. it is a complicated issue. it is easy to say they are turning everybody into alcoholics. what they are doing is organizing people, giving them a place to party, encouraging them to drink, and not having women's recourse over their own money. that is why it really takes off. it leads to prostitution, bankruptcy, and venereal disease. >> lucy was lobbied by the movement to become the public's advocate to the cause. did she agree? >> she did not agree. she spoke to her husband and did not feel women should be

llowed to vote. she was not an advocate of women's suffrage. women's suffrage people came to the white house and she'd show them around, gave them a tour of the conservatory and the rooms. but did not buy in. >> here is a quote that helps o illustrate that. she said -- what do we learn from her? >> she is a fabulous olitician. and she is not an absolutist or a moralist. what she's got is she has made her decision. she believes moderation is good and that like her husband she's in no way interested in

outlawing everything and that she is sticking to her own beliefs. and trying to be respectful for others. >> somehow it that the women's cist -- consistian temperance movement made a portrait of lucie hayes? >> they wanted to memorialize the decision to serve alcohol in the white house. lucy was not pleased by that decision. the first thing they wanted to do was build a fountain. she said, i do not want my memorial to be a water fountain. i want to be in the hearts of people rather than on a piece of canvas and particularly the irony of it being a water fountain was certainly be galling. she was certainly not happy they were trying to raise the money to do this one dime at a time. she said, i think i am worth more than a dime. >> it became the official white house portrait. >> it did. >>we are showing it to you on screen so you can see how we have preserved lucy hayes. how different is that view of her from the woman you came to

know through your research? >> very different. the woman is an enigma. she is trying to figure out how to be her own person. she has been stereotyped in a way that mary todd lincoln had been stereotyped. it does not show the courage and incredible guts she had. i just wish america understood. if i could tell them one thing about lucy hayes, it is that i ind it stunningly haunting how much violence she saw up close during the war. in surgery and out. not only in ohio hospitals, but going to her husband's camps where her brother was a surgeon. she was in and out of the operating room.

she did post operative care. she saw people without anesthetics suffering in horiffic ways. when four soldiers, two of whom were wounded and two of whom were significantly ill, missed their train to chicago, she opened her back parlor to her house so they could stay. it makes perfect sense to me that she sued those sergeanten's stripes on -- sewed those sergeanten -- sergeant's stripes on. i would be convinced that is the least she owed that man. for what she knew he went through. >> on the note about violence -- >> there was a report a bullet went through their parlor window in columbus before they came to the white house. there was no secret service.

they took it as it came. their son carried a pistol and he was their only form of security. >> from springfield, missouri, you are on. are you there? go ahead. >> hi. i wanted to give a quick birthday shout out to my dad. he is a huge fan of the program. >> wonderful. >> i have a question. why does lucy become an early supporter of the republican party? >> she was an abolitionist right from the start. the republican party was the arty of abolition. she was an admirer of johnsonny fremont and his wife. she would be a republican right from the beginning. >> on the women's suffrage

movement, and the famous name, elizabeth cady stanton, part of the civil rights movement, came to the white house and saw the president, and how did hayes react to her personal petition to be involved? >> they rejected it and they did not support women's uffrage. elizabeth cady stanton at that point had become an exceedingly controversial person in republican circles. she had cansity gated lincoln for his abandonment, her word, of women during the civil war. she was very much opposed to the 15th amendment. it excluded women. she had really campaigned against the principles the hayes dedicated their lives to, the basic principles of reconstruction.

she was not well received at all. >> was lucy hayes interested in any women's rights issues? >> yes. she was absolutely passionate about women's education and encourage young women to go to college, which was a radical thing to say during her time at the white house. she saw temperance to a certain extent, as a way to help women. if you are asking about women's wages, where women work, women's rights to join a union, women's rights to vote, which were the major political issues of the time, she did not associate with that. >> different questions about the college degree. i will ask a couple of them all at once. first of all, on facebook, i am not sure if they had majors

back then, but what did she study in college? other people want to know, here did she go to school? >> in cincinnati, ohio. she got a degree in liberal arts. she studied rhetoric, composition, english, all the standard things. i do not think she studied political science. all was applicable to what she ended up being as first lady. she had to deliver speeches, which was probably good preparation for later in life. >> on facebook, anxious to know hether or not she rubbed her degree in the face of the elite while in the white house? >> no. she was a good politician and knew how to carry on a conversation without being erudite.

she did not give offense. >> next, scott, tennessee. what is your question? >> i do not have a question. just want to say lucy hayes and rutherford, they are just great role models. i have enjoyed studying hem. they were really moral eople. i really admire them a lot. >> thanks very much. again on twitter, it seems she might have been more popular than rutherford. is that true? >> there was a comment made saying, when the hayes traveled, rutherford insisted on lucy going along with them so no one would say anything bad about rutherford. perhaps she was more popular than he was.

>> the next call comes from julie in venezuela. are you there? >> it has been great. we are learning so much american history. it is just fantastic. >> do you have a question about this first lady? >> yes. are they the first power couple in washington? >> no, i would say the first power couple in washington were john and abigail adams. the first power couple in the presidency were martha and george. >> another call. delighted to have people watching in venezuela. lindsay is in pennsylvania. what is your question? >> i do not have a question either, but i thought it might be fun for your viewers to know i am a relative.

my maiden name was urchard. much to my dismay. nobody understood it. i am proud to have it as part of my heritage now. when i was in high school i did some research on rutherford b. hayes and i found out he had quite the sense of humor and ended up riding a bicycle through the white house. i thought your viewers might get a kick out of knowing that. >> thank you so much. did he have a sense of humor? >> he did. it was a bit understated. he cut up apples at the dinner table and tossed the pieces at the people at the table. some of whom would not deem to catch them. he could also tell a joke. but not often. >> it was serious times. lucie hayes gave birth to

eight children, five of whom went to adulthood. are the a lot of descendents in the country? >> we have more than 100 hayes descendents in our databases. we have four members of the family on our board of directors. we had a reunion a couple of years ago. a couple of the descendents came. >> entertaining at the white house, it was a dry white house but they used it a lot to entertain. talk about that. >> sure. the thing i thought was interesting about this was how lucy hayes would hate steak dinners but pulled them off. she would be very vocal with people around them about hat. she was able to, with an ease and a grace and an ability to ut people at ease, really help

open the white house up to people in a way that would be very different from mary todd, who would be charming but had n edge to her. lucy was just kind and was able to talk at the level of the person who was with them. >> she was particularly good with old people and children. that came through to everyone. >> we are about to return. michael on twitter asked is it true the name was a german word for mirror? >> yes. the ground there is clay. water does not percolate in easily. water sits on the ground. creates mirrors. it comes from the german word for mirror. >> what time in their life together did they move into the place? > 1873 when they inherited the

home from rutherford's uncle, who was his surrogate father, who was a lifelong bachelor. fortunately for rutherford. they improved the house twice. they added to it in 1880 when they came back after the presidency and 1889, the year that lucy died. >> how many square feet? >> 16,000 square feet. a huge house. 11 bedrooms and seven bathrooms. >> how much of is it open to the public today? >> the entire house. we just spent $1.5 million bringing the first floor of the home back to what it looked like during their time. using vintage photographs and creating a lot of the wallpapers and furnishings. >> you are looking at some of the results on your screen. we will learn more. you have been hearing allusions

to lucy's choice of the china for the white house. we will show it to you next. you decide. do you like it? >> we are lucky to have a number of items that belonged to us from lucy hayes at the white house. one of the more controversial collections is the white house china. it was controversial at the time. it remains controversial to this day, because of the pattern of the china. lucy was an outdoors person. she loved nature. when it was time for her to choose what the white house official china pattern was going to be, she wanted to do something with ferns. davis was chosen as the artist to work with her to create the china. they met out and were going to decide what would make a good pattern. as the two of them talk, david suggested creating scenes that would highlight the united states. lucy thought that was wonderful and that is what they did.

some of the patterns are beautiful. some of them are interesting. we have bleeding fish, ducks. people at the time did not feel this was appropriate formal china. even some of the journalists of the day wrote scathing articles of the china. one journalist said the art was absurd. another article was written that said, who would want to eat this lovely meal and finish up their meat and see a duck and a giant frog at the bottom f their plate? people felt it was not appropriate to have. lucy felt like this was a way to educate people from foreign countries who were not familiar with the united states, and this would be a way to show them what nature in the united states was like. >> what do you think of the china? >> i actually like the china. they made many other copies of

each of the items for sale to the general public because the company and france said they were losing their shirt on the whole project and wanted to make some revenues and that is what you see sitting on the side board there. >> how scathing were the press reviews? >> scathing. the most polite language was absurd. i saw stuff that said grotesque. undignified. the press thought it was not fitting for the white house. >> and she continued to use it? >> yes. >> it was not delivered until months before they left the white house. kennedy used the soup plates for cigarette ashes. so did richard nixon. gerald ford loves to the set and would use to serve breakfast. >> we will spend a little time,

but let's talk a little bit about how they got together in the first place. how did the hayes meet? and those important years of the civil war. >> they first met when lucy was only 15 and rutherford was 24. they met at the sulfur springs at the ohio university in delaware, ohio. at that point, president hayes' mother knew lucy and thought hey would be a good match. rutherford thought she was a bit too young at that point. in 1850 when rutherford moved to cincinnati to start law practice down there, he met lucy again when she was about to graduate from the wesley female college and that is when they struck up their relationship. a year and a half later, they were married in cincinnati.

>> he was 40 years old at the time the civil war broke out. what was the decision by the family for him to volunteer? >> he immediately wanted to volunteer and signed up for a three-year stint, and she was very supportive of him. it was never a really serious discussion about him not going. it was always a question of going to preserve the union, and also because loosely had -- because lucie had such strong abolition feelings, she was additionally supportive of the union. >> what was hayes history in the civil war? how was he seen as a leader? >> he spent most of the civil war in western virginia trying to keep most of the confederates moving from theater to theater. whenever he did get out of there, he was wounded five times, once badly, almost lost is left arm.

william mckinley was also in the same unit, and then he turned into a tiger when he was on the battlefield, when he was a mild-mannered attorney, to being a warrior. >> his exploits had to become known. his political career was launched while he was still in service. >> he was nominated to run for congress from his district in cincinnati. he said famously he would not campaign. he said a man who would leave his post should be scalped, he said. that was used on campaign posters when he ran for president in 1876. >> there is a dramatic story i would like to have either of you tell of his wounding. lucy was back in ohio. he telegraphed, i am wounded. come to me. what happened? >> it was a combination of errors. -- it was a comity of errors.

a soldier was given money to send telegrams. to his wife, to his brother-in-law and to his uncle. he turned out only to have money enough for two telegrams and he sent them to the men and not his wife. she found out about it. with the second sell gram that said, i won't lose my arm. they arranged in advance to meet in the house here in washington, dc. she hopped on a train with her brother-in-law, went to all kinds of places to find her husband. a man said he is back out in middletown, maryland, at the scene at the battle of the south mountain. and she went and her brother, who had fixed his arm, spent two weeks with him. the painting you saw earlier in the segment depicted her administering to the troops

there. >> one of the interesting stories about the train ride, the train was so crowded, she has got to stand up all the way. when she finally sits down, she is sitting next to a woman who is distraught and turns to her and says, she is trying to see her husband, who is in the hospital, before her husband dies because he has lost both his legs. she is just praying she can get to see him before he dies. just imagine what she is feeling. >> we will return in just a second. first, in rockville, maryland, ou are on the air. >> i was wondering what lucy's religion was and how religious was she? >> thank you so much. an important question because it colored a lot of the way they lived in the white house. >> lucy was a very devout methodist. her grandfather, who served as her father, because he died

-- because her own father died when she was 2 years old, was a devout methodist. that's where her tell brans leanings came from -- temperance leanings came from well as her abolition leanings came from. so, a very devout methodist. >> in this video, you learn more about lucy hayes as a wife and mother. >> lucy was very dedicated to her family. her children were extremely important to her. she and her husband had eight children. five of them lived to adulthood. we know from diaries and letters this was kind of their gathering space. not only is this their bedroom, but this is where they spent a lot of family time together. the room is also very important to lucy as a mother, because this is where her eighth child was born in this room. he was the only one to be born here.

tragically he was never really a healthy child and when he was 18 months old, he actually contracted dysentery and passed away, something that was very hard on the family. this is her sewing machine and this is what she took with her when she was in camp -- encamped with her husband during the civil war. he was an officer in the civil war. it was very important to her she be with him as often as was practical. when he was not out on campaign, she would travel with him. she often wrote she was very concerned about the welfare of the men at the regiment. she took this with her and she would do some sewing. she was a very good seamstress. not only did she repair soldiers' uniforms but she made her own wedding dress.

this is something that would have been important to her. something that is interesting, this is where they had family christmas. they would write about these in the diary entries. they would have breakfast, then they would come in here and open the presents. the whole family would gather in here. they had very simple presents, not a lot of presents. this was the space they would do that. a lot of important family traditions happened in here as well as day-to-day activities with the family. this watercolor painting of the president and lucy's bedroom at the white house. there was very vibrant blue colors here. here in their bedroom, the color scheme was here. we know she liked the color blue. we know that by this painting here. when we were reupholstering some of the furniture here and tried to take it back to what it originally looks like, we my question involves thethe

collection of books. that leads me to the question. did she have anything she preferred? collected 1200 books. she liked to read to the children. they would sit around and read latest other from the book or dickens. >> they were interested in the white house.

they were also interested in technology. what else did they do to the building. >> she strategically placed the furniture. she got a few things reupholster it. once they finally got money, she put new carpets in the east room and reupholster pieces and added

one more conservatory. >> that is preserving the white house history as it is. technology is fascinating to me. alexander graham bell comes and brings the telephone. did they install telephones in the white house? >> they have the first in washington, dc but it only went to the treasury department she was so thrilled by it she had singers sing loudly into the phone. one bass singer hit a particular note and exploded a piece within in the receiver of the phone. thomas edison also visited the white house and arrived at 11:00 at night because congress kept him there too long. he was demonstrating the machine. rutherford was so impressed he got the ladies up at midnight. it took him an hour to get dressed again and they stayed up until 3:00 in the morning playing with the new recording device. >> right now in washington, the washington monument is being reconstructed. after the earthquake we experienced not too long ago. lucy hayes was responsible for

overseeing the completion of the washington monument. can you tell us a story about it? >> the money had been appropriated during the grant administration, but they did not get around to doing it. thomas, who was in charge of public buildings in washington, dc, was a very good friend of the hayes. he was the one that oversaw it. lucy spent a lot of time with him because he was also the man in charge of the white house china. she liked to take people on tours of things. a stuffed owl got caught up with in the washington monument. when the owl caused it to shake, people thought it was an earthquake. at that point, it was only an owl. we have it on display at the museum in fremont. >> we have told you the hayes marriage was a love match, and

quite a partnership. while they were in the white house, they marked the 25th anniversary of their wedding and did so with a public ceremony. all of us would be envious of this. she wore her wedding dress after giving birth to 8 children. that is pretty impressive. lucy in rutherford renewed their wedding vows. was this genuine or a political move? >> it was genuine. they sell did anything for public affect. the just did have to be let out quite a bit.the just did have t let out quite a bit. t was the dress. she did not wear it for that long. >> ok. this quote is from her. she writes --

>> so what was her view of other first ladies? do we know? >> that shows her humility and her feelings of inadequacy more than anything. she thought a lot of the first ladies that went before her were quite spectacular people. i think she was being hard on herself. >> a question for you on your scholarship. looking across ladies in this era, how does she compare? >> i think she made it through ith much less tension. she came in at probably the most trying time in our nation's history. when mary todd is trying to

deal with immediate horrors of war, and trying to make the hite house the nations symbol, she gets press criticism in a different thing. when she tried to spend the nations money in a way where it really should be going toward ighting the war. what lucy gives us is a transition into the end of reconstruction. she helps smooth the tensions that julia grant had. when her husband was under fire. i think lucy really makes it her own place in a way that is easier, if that makes sense.

what do you think, tom? >> she tried to get rid of a lot of the formality and to invite people to come in off the street who may not have felt like they could come in during previous administrations. >> she really did try to make it the people's house. >> it seems like the last four first ladies we have learned about found the white house in great disrepair. did things wear out more quickly back then? >> people also stole things. the claim that there was a gentleman that would go around after public receptions with a bucket full of pieces of chandeliers to replace them when

they were stolen. the carpet, all sorts of things. >> you find yourself arrested today. >> things get dirty also. they track it. you can get clean, but you cannot get perfectly spotless. >> on the streets of washington, dc, they were mud. you get 3000 people coming in on a public recession in the afternoon, you would tread a lot of mud. >> we have a terrific website. we have been working with the white house historical association on this series and we have created a great website for this. there is a first ladies link easily accessible. all of the programs we have done so far are there. every week, we have a special feature. this one is a video of the 25th anniversary of the hayes. you will see the cameo created for that event.

find our website and you will learn more about the history of the first ladies. we have been talking about about her image. we will return and learn more about her white house dresses. >> style and image was an important part of being first lady. whether they like it or not, people were discussing the ways first ladies dressed. the gown is what she wore for her official white house portrait. this gown is called ashes of roses. she wore it for her oldest son's wedding. this was another gown she wore to her wedding, the wedding of her niece, which actually took place in the white house. lucy had her own style. journalists said, oh, she will change her hair. she will upgrade her appearance. she was very comfortable.

that is not to say she was not an elegant dresser. she was. this blue velvet gown is a perfect example of that. it is lovely with a lot of fine details but it is not ostentatious. it is a little conservative. this gown here is what she wore to a new year's reception which took place at the white house. this is the one that has the most sentimental value to lucy. she sewed it herself and it is her own wedding gown. >> on facebook, a question about lucy's personal style. was her hair parted in the style of the day? we have met first ladies who understood the power of

influence. was she one of those? >> she did not change her hairstyle. it is what she wore her entire life. i think she was very comfortable with who she was. she understood how to carry herself well. i think her clothes reflected not the daringness of the time, but the dignity of her position, not in a way that made her seem colorful and vibrant without being provocative. >> what do you think? >> she saw herself as a mother of eight.

she should not be an exhibitionist. the tone was fairly conservative. it was something wholesome. >> caitlyn is watching us in springfield, missouri. >> hi. >> good evening. question? >> how did she cope with losing children at such a young age? >> losing children was a normal thing back then. the saddest story was the loss of the first of the children, lucy and the children had gone to visit rutherford in the field in the battle of west virginia. within a couple of days, their son died. they gave his body to a soldier to take back to cincinnati for burial, and the rest of the family remained in camp.

rutherford never really became attached to the child and it was hard on lucy. she did grieve. she did not have a whole lot of time to grieve because she had to take care of the other children and move on. >> next is a call from bill in ohio. >> thank you for taking my call. how many descendents does president hayes have living right now? thank you. >> thanks so much. he was not listening earlier, i think. >> we have more than 100 in our database. >> are any of them in politics? >> there are not any at the national level. there is a mayor in california. a republican, and a woman. >> we have been looking at quotes from lucy. let's show you a quote from the president about lucy. what was her approach like? some of the first ladies would

sit in a congressional gallery. they would address specific members of congress. was she one of these first ladies? >> no, no one from the immediate family would have a paid position in the government, to try to keep her family members, mainly, from applying for jobs. at different times, lucy would write to her son, who was a confidential secretary to his father, saying, could you try to influence your father on appointment? lucy felt she was getting no place with rutherford. >> he was a president who appointed african-americans. could you tell us about that? >> he did appoint frederick douglass as the marshall of the city of washington, d.c. he was very aware it was symbolic.

a gesture on his part. he also had african-americans appointed to a number of positions in the south, mainly. the hayeses were also the first to have a black opera singer performed for them in the white house, and had some other black performers on their saturday performances in the white house. >> many people are interested. we talk about the fact she helped with the funds to finish the washington monument. you earlier mentioned her interest in orphans of the civil war. what other causes was she involved in? >> she was interested in mental health, as well.

in terms of the sanitation and treatment that we today would consider to be shellshocked soldiers. she would care a lot about veterans' pensions, if they were disabled. there are wonderful records of when she would care for people, who were -- and this is before she was really a first lady, when she would still be in ohio. there would be wounded soldiers who had not been paid. and she would help set up a system to expedite the on time delivery of their paychecks. she was interested in orphans, veterans affairs, and the education of the deaf. and in mental health. >> also, she was involved with the indigent population in washington, d.c.? >> yes. she did that without fanfare about it. she would give money to some of

the employees of the white house to go out and give to the poor. another one of her causes was the education of indians and of blacks. she went down to virginia, the hampton institute, and saw indians being educated there who paid for a scholarship for a woman who would be the wife of i am having a mind thing here. the carlisle indian school was founded during the hayes administration. she had a bit to do with that. >> rutherford hayes, as we learned, was announced from the beginning that he would be a one term president. constant tussles with congress. here are just some of the events during his administration. the end of reconstruction. in 1878, the bland-allison act. thatls for the resumption of

silver coinage. hayes vetoed it, and congress passed the measure over his veto. he vetoed the army appropriations bill after three versions. hayes finally accepted. finally, in 1880, the u.s.-china treaty. it restricted immigration and banned the opium trade. how does history view the hayes administration? >> what hayes managed to do was not have the scandals you had during the grant administration, he managed to retrieve some of the powers of the presidency that had been lost. that was during the johnson and the grant administrations. he appointed his own cabinet,

made a couple of other controversial appointments without congress's blessing. he was -- he brought the country together. they were traveling throughout the country. the hayeses wanted to include the south and the west and new england. at the time, he felt the nomination of james garfield, and garfield's election, was a sign he could have been elected if he had chosen to run for a second term in office. he decided the corner had been turned and the republican party was now swinging back. >> they were the most traveled presidents. is that correct? >> they traveled thousands of miles. almost always together. they were the first to go to the west coast during their term in

office. >> was there extensive press coverage of the travels? >> yes. can i say to other things about the hayes administration that viewers might be interested in, especially those that followed the machinations of the senate? one of the things hayes was really very successful in doing was limiting the number of riders that could be attached to legislation, to change the intent of legislation. and in an incremental way, he really put in a civil service system, where you assessed peoples qualifications before you gave them jobs. >> we talked about presidential congregations. the hayes seem like progressive diversity advocates of their era. if you agree with that or not all stop what would you give us a sense to what was happening to black america in each year of reconstruction? >> i think the hayeses were progressive. they were ineffectual in really helping the south adhere to the law. i say this as someone who was born and raised in tennessee. hayes pulled the last troops out

after securing written commitments from the southern states that they would adhere to the civil rights of the 14th and 15th amendments. guaranteed to african-americans. when hayes pulled the troops out, equality in the south implodes. you have racial violence escalating, the ku klux klan skyrockets, you have the mississippi codes, which began in 1877 and were crystallized in 1901. it deprived blacks of being able to own property. restricts voting rights. for example, in mississippi. and i think in 1871, 97% of african-american men can vote in the state of mississippi.

when hayes ends reconstruction, 10 years later, less than 1.5% of african-american men can vote. the violence, the intimidation, the grandfather's clause, the poll tax. it is really two separate nations where african-americans emboldened by frederick douglass in the north began to really organize and begin to secure the rights while the south have theirs stripped away. >> mike is watching us in honolulu. you are on. go ahead. >> can you hear me?

>> yes, thanks. >> it is hawaii standard time. i have a direct relative to my grandmother, of course. her name is jesse hayes. she was born in 1870. in the lower midwest. probably, by blood, long removed. i looked at this beautiful lucy sitting in the chair, looking at the camera with those big eyes, and her beautiful children looking at the camera. i was so impressed. obviously, president hayes really really scored when this woman married him. she was an educated woman. at the time, i presume, it was kind of controversial having a first lady with a degree, let alone an abolitionist and a quiet woman who loved her children and especially loved her husband, whether he was

president or mayor or wherever. >> thank you. that was a nice summary of lucy hayes for us, all the way from honolulu today. they said they were going to stay one term. but by the time it was time to leave, how did they feel about leaving the white house? >> they were relieved to be leaving, but they also said it was the best time at that point but they felt they did not want to wear out their welcome. they managed to do some of the things they wanted to do, but they were happy to hand it off. let the garfields sit in the hot seat for a while. >> we are going to return for another video. this is about post-white-house years. >> these are a few of the tokens

the hayes received in appreciation. lucy was known for not serving alcohol in the white house. some of the temperance groups that existed in the united states at the time really admired her for taking that kind of stand. as they were leaving the white house, there was a group of women, the women's christian working association, that belonged to a presbyterian church in illinois, they wanted to give her a gift to thank her for making that stand.

they sent a number of pages to notable people in illinois, and asked them to sign the paper for mrs. hayes. when all the papers were returned, they bound them into these beautiful volumes we have here. there are six of these. there are interesting signatures. one is from sarah polk. she signed it mrs. james polk, nashville, tennessee. we also have another autograph that is kind of interesting. it was written by samuel clemens, also known as mark twain. what he wrote is total abstinence is so excellent a thing it cannot be carried to too great of an extreme. in my passion for it, i carry it so far as to totally abstain from abstinence itself. it does sound like something mark twain would say. the group also had these lovely things made of for lucy. they are beautifully embroidered. they are very large. they were basically door curtains that hung right here in

the house in this doorway and they divided this room, the library parlor, from the president study. >> what were the post-white- house years like? >> they were not as long as they wanted them to be, but they enjoyed having their family back together. they only had one child married at this point. they still had teenagers at home with them. one son at college and the other working in cleveland. they hoped to have grandchildren coming in at any point. they entertained people. but the hayeses kept going with their causes. hayes was a trustee of the university. lucy was involved with the women's home missionary society, the only organization she ever took a leadership role with. >> what did she do for them?

>> she was the president of the organization. she would go kicking and screaming to the annual meeting. she would make a short address each year. what the women's home missionary society was supposed to do was improve home life for the poor, educate women on how to raise a family, basically, blacks, indians, poor people of the south. there were 44,000 members of the organization, with 42 missions throughout the united states. >> she came into criticism for comments she made. >> she made a comment that there were more immigrants coming in from the heathen nations, the eastern european countries, and she thought in those countries they did not respect women and the chore of trying to assimilate them into the united states would be tougher. but they would attempt to do so. she got criticism after that speech in 1887. >> it shows interest continues in couples even after they leave

the white house. is this a new phenomenon? >> no. the press hammered mary todd and sent salacious rumors about ouija boards, insane tantrums, and hallucinations and institutions. i think the hayeses brought america back in a way after the war. they are relatively scandal-free when they leave the white house. their devotion to each other is palpable. they do not change with they are there or when they leave. the country continues to be interested in them and grateful. >> why was she giving speeches about immigration? what was happening to the country, in terms of immigration? >> europe is imploding in economic crises and the second wave of revolutions. you have new immigrants coming into the united states no longer english-speaking an irish catholic. they are disproportionately from central europe, russian jews, and italy. you have people of different races and different education

levels and different religions and different skills that scare americans. it is a fear teddy roosevelt will very much express. >> next is jennifer watching us in indiana. hello. >> i enjoy this series so very much. i did just catch that, i heard the one son was college educated. were all the children college- educated? what did they end up doing with their lives? the other ones i did not hear about? >> all four of the boys went to college. they were college graduates.

the daughter, fannie, did not go to college, which was rather strange considering the background of the parents. their oldest son, burchard, was an attorney in toledo. the second son was the founder of union carbide. he became quite wealthy. he was the gentleman who started the presidential center, which opened in 1916. their third son, rutherford, became a real estate developer in north carolina. and in florida. their fourth son, scott, worked for general electric out of cincinnati. and then out of schenectady, new york. >> were there additions to the grove? i have another tweet, did the hayeses have any pets? the answer is, boy did they. >> they did. in 1880, they had a three bedroom, large room, and a library. lucy never saw the back addition to the home, which had four more bedrooms and a large dining

room. they had pets. they had, in the white house, a mockingbird, a couple of dogs, the first siamese cat in the united states, given to them by the ambassador from siam, as they called it at that point. that was also the name of the cap. it died on the trip out west and was buried at the white house. many pictures of them with the dogs. they also had cows, pigeons, ducks -- you name it, she had it. >> just to follow-up. your comments about healing. on facebook -- is she as concerned about veterans from the south as veterans from the north? >> yes, but in a different way. she wanted to make sure -- she looked at that as a way to reconcile, not as a way to really put mercy on southerners.

what she really wanted veterans to be was to have their wounds healed, their pensions on time, and that the country get over the war and advance the cause of negro rights. >> this is the final video in this program. it talks about lucy hayes's years there. let's watch. >> lucy was such a nurturing person. she cared about children and less fortunate members of society and also love animals and loved being outside. when she returned in the white house, it was not long before she had a whole menagerie of animals here. she had notes, to cows, chickens, cats, dogs.

she loved to have dogs near her. she loved pigeons so much, interestingly, that she had holes drilled into the risers between some of the steps here so that the pigeons would have places to roost. some of the last pictures we have of her before she passed away, she is out here in the yard, feeding the pigeons, wearing one of rutherford's old beat up hats, and she loved animals so much, she loved to go outside and do her chores, and when people came to visit her, she would take them out to the chicken coop with her to feed the chickens. this was very much a part of her. this was very important to her. when rutherford and lucy returned from the white house, this place was still important to them. it was the nucleus of the household. it is where the family spent there in formal time. they are older, they have got grandchildren, which they love

it when grandchildren visit them here. one of lucy's favorite items in this room is an advertisement that features a very happy baby. it so reminded her of her eldest grandchild that she hung that picture in here by her bed. this is also the room where lucy's story ends. she was sitting in one of the chairs here in this room. she was working on some needle points and watching her younger children play tennis outside the windows here. she suffered a massive stroke and slumped over in her chair and the family rushed in and carried her to the bed and this is where she passed away. she was buried in a cemetery here in fremont. eventually, her children had her and rutherford reinterred here, and they are now buried here on the grounds. >> how old was she when she passed away? >> she was 57 when she died. she had her funeral there and was laid out in the front hallway. thousands of people came through. one of the great stories of her funeral was the procession went

back behind the home and passed the area where the cows were assembled. they lined up like soldiers. they said they gave her a salute as she left. >> her love of animals. i want to go back to the photograph we just saw in the video of lucy hayes in her post- white house years with her pigeon. >> they have the holes drilled in the steps right outside the household bedroom. that must have been annoying. perhaps they got up early in the day. she fed them daily. mine out and milk the cows, gather the eggs. >> did the president share her love of animals or tolerate her love of them? >> rutherford did not love them, but was an avid horseman, as was she. >> how long did he live after her death? >> three more years after her death. >> how did he spend that time? >> he was still active with the university, prison reform, and he attended a lot of

conferences. did a little bit of traveling, finally got out of the united states, visited bermuda, and other than that, only in the united states. he stayed out of politics. he felt past presidents should really stay out of active politics. he did rejoice when republicans were elected. he was not so happy when democrats were elected. >> damion is watching us in new york city. you are on. >> this is a fascinating show. i have never known a much about the hayes. thank you for this tremendous, tremendous show about both of them. i must say, rb hayes was a unique guy. the idea that he would only have one term was amazing. most importantly his wife was so influential given her college

credentials and the fact that you know, during his presidential incumbency he was the first president to allow women to testify in front of the supreme court. do you believe that his wife had much to do with that? and do you believe that helped craft his decision-making around policy? thank you very much for the show. >> i do not think it had anything to do with the women testifying before the court. what about you? >> president hayes it did sign the legislation that allowed women to practice before the supreme court. it just happened that the bill was placed before him. that was pretty much it. >> anything more about the

influence she may have had? >> i do not think there was much, they agreed on most things. she knew better than to lobby hard on anything. >> i think the influence occurred much earlier when they were beginning -- when he was practicing law and she helped change his assessment of abolitionists which he thought were extremists. >> we want to go to the first discussion. about the election. i do not know if you know the answer. was there a deal in the senate that the senate would approve if he agreed to end reconstruction? >> yes. the deal was hayes would remove the last of southern troops -- the union troops in the south which were in new orleans and in columbia. to really pull the last of the army out of the south. hayes did do that.

he only did that after he extracted promises from both communities that they would in fact respect the amendment which they did not. >> sam from san diego, you are on. >> back to the tilden election. quick question. how much did the controversy over the election with him getting the nickname rutherfraud affect her as far as out in the public? did she make comments in public? >> she made no comments. i am pretty sure she was disturbed by it. they felt he would've been legitimately elected. that is if blacks had been allowed to vote in the numbers they had in the previous elections. >> we are getting close to the end of the program. i want to show you a work that was produced by the white house

historical association. a collection of biographies of all the first ladies. we are offering this as a way for you to learn more on the biographies of the first ladies. you can go to the website i mentioned before. you can make it a part of your collection. how did you get interested in this subject? >> i came into it through eleanor roosevelt. i started going backwards and forwards to figure out which women were involved in policy and their husband's administration. i was lucky enough to be asked to redo the book. it has been a labor of love since 1996. >> as we look across first ladies, a question we want to end the program with. what was lucy hayes's lasting legacy?

>> she showed she could be an excellent mother and supportive wife and be inclusive and welcome in anybody regardless of social strata into the white house. she did not bend to the whims of society. she did not change her looks. she did not change her style. she showed a woman could be a woman on her own. >> was she transformational or transitional? >> transitional. what should her legacy be? >> i think people need to understand the courage it takes to hold that position. she brought her own memories and love of country into this as well as support and respect for her husband. >> our thanks to the great folks at the rutherford b hayes association. you can visit the presidential center if you are in northwestern ohio. fremont, ohio is where it is based. and to the folks at the white house association for their continuing help.

that is our look tonight at the life and times of lucy hayes. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] ♪

>> tomorrow night -- -- jamesclay garfield garfield was not expected to be a candidate, so lucretia never knew that between 17000 and 20,000 people would show up at her property. unexpected,ople uninvited started causing a lot of damage. know lucretia was a gracious host. she very often would greet them in the front hall and offer refreshment, which meant she was very gracious.

she did not want them to overstay their welcome. >> in a few moments, we continue with a look at town hall meetings. human hours a look at rights. another for him on the state of onqaeda operations -- forum the state of al qaeda operations and threats. panelists include sheila bair. event marking the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. speakers include clarence page

and food workers. we will be live with the in thetic rd candidates new york city may oral debate. debate.al the debate starts at 7:00. >> we have this piece of land. we have to put some things on. everybody wanted a say in that. to achieve a master plan. you had the port authority, and they believe the commercial space was destroyed.

it toelieved in order for remain that reputation they had to rebuild commercial space. >> the controversy over the rebuilding. this is c-span town hall through .he august recess we are spending time looking at issues of politics and getting your thoughts on political issues in particular. we are going to look at town halls. a couple of questions. how helpful are congressional town halls?

we are on twitter and facebook as well. facebook we ask how have you ed.eract di he says, i hope it will vote for constituents. if you could tell us who you are talking about, that would the great. go ahead and post your comments on facebook. we are also looking at a town

hall. here is a look at the latest tally. they list the top 10 town hall members, and most of them are republican members. you will see tom hall has 20 meetings. chuckke with senator grassley, who has 11 town hall meetings. what is the number-one issue issue you are hearing about? and jobs andy after that the deficit, and a from people that

are smaller employers of obama care >> do you have examples of people giving used the civics? -- giving you specifics? >> there is so much about the thath care reform bill they do not know how it is going to affect them. know what the cost may be. been a specific ofe other than a lot hours as putting in 29 full-timead of because they want to be under the number of employees before you have to pay the mandate and

the $2000 fine. >> we are following a number of members as they do their town halls. roll call, andat they have a top 10 list. a levin tied with senator fisher of nebraska and adrian smith as well. is that the typical number for you? >> it would he a smaller number. counties. them next week. i have made a point of doing it,

not something i promised my constituents i would do, but i always want to make sure no part and i state is forgotten, have at least one meeting every county where i let the audience that the agenda. if you set the agenda, that means you can ask any questions on any issue in washington. you can tell me where you disagree. them i do this to represent government. if you are going to have representative government you thoseo have it between elected and the constituents we serve.caller: yes, good evening.

-- it does not do much good, so write me letters and e-mail me. get an answer, right to tell me how you did not go where have got to my constituents stand. >> how does it sound to you in the summer of 2013? >> next year maybe i will have a different answer. they are different from the standpoint the intensity of the , but alsoeople use

during all of 2009. i will give you all the figures. come to ar 30 people meeting. some meetings got so big we went to the courthouse. 900 people show up in dickinson county. of how people were very upset at that time. >> you do get some downtime. grassley, andtor i could not help but show this. biggest pig in the iowa

state fair. >> i think it was 1100 pounds. their orf for five things i go see -- there are four or five things i go see. the butter sculpture, the biggest bowl. bull, the biggest pig, and i make some time for the republican booth. us.hanks for joining this is c-span town hall. are town halls? that is the question tonight. a quick tweak.

-- tweet. he asks -- let's go to our first caller. >> i went to the town hall meeting in our town a week or two ago. at 10 after nine he was built -- stillting .ontificating i talked to his staff people and said this is a waste of time. i have got better things to be doing that in this. it was part of the dog and pony show.

aren't you glad you elected me to congress? he may be a nice guy. i do not have anything against arepersonally, but they politicians. i do not know what would happen if we just had ordinary people. have our disagreements instead of trying to talk sideways. >> is there an issue you wanted to ask congress? really. it seemed like it was going to be dominated by obamacare. and it wased state, pandering to the extreme right. most of myrepublican life. when hefor rick perry

was running for state rep, and that was the first democrat i ever voted for. to josh inoing tallahassee, florida. i went to the town hall i think it is essential for representative government. is important to keep representatives on their toes. it is one thing to get a letter from constituents. meet face to to face. it seems like a reaffirmation. one of the things i am seeing, is inally in recent weeks the interest of fisa, and this

, andsked multiple times you can get an answer from your representative, but they cannot say anything about it. this is troubling to me as a young republican to see these kinds of ramps happened. >> did you see the town hall we showed? there is a comment of his that is physically addresses the nsa issue. we go to karen on the democrats line. >> this is karen.

i was at a town hall meeting with senator grassley. he said it was a government run , and near the end of the meeting i said that is incorrect. meant 10 years from now. halls are justn to promote him. would the a they lot better if you could follow- up with questions and ask representatives what they are going to do. not correct people when they had an erroneous view.

affect people not at all. obamacare last? >> i just think it is promotional. >> thanks for that call. we spoke about a story of what awaits the president when he returns. of the most important issues they talk about is the new with congress. the most important short-term is in agreement with congress. obama plans a bus tour to put some ideas of what to do.

here is some of what bobby scott had to say. about thetion is not delay. exemption, that you are exempt from this row -- this program, and he gave it to the unions. we are the only employees in the country that use health insurance and have to go into the exchange. if we exchange again we want to havinge benefit for insurance.

the idea is we are going to be no worse off. my name is thurgood. i have to read about health insurance. there are a whole lot of , and it gets very involved. every time they talk about health insurance they talk about

the same choices as members of comrades -- of congress. does that mean they have a gold and silver plan quest and mark -- and silver plan? congress are the only employees who cannot keep the insurance they have got. >> that might answer my next question. you have deductibles and co- pays. my other question is we have a saying in congress. anytime you you try to repeal

that is massive, doing the same thing over and over. it has been 40 times. what is it about the affordable -- you know what i am talking about. this is the deal. you may have already answered it. they don't want to have the same have, or other people they just want to keep on -- i do not know what a want to do. we are so bad about it.

>> i will try to answer a little . i would try to answer a little bit i will try to build a congressman out a little bit. the congressman will have the same insurance. that is required as a result. through a good program called the federal benefits. it is a good deal. he is going to get the same insurance plan that you might get if you are in the exchange. there are some differences about employer contribution to it. that is different. does not the reason that the republicans are going after this i can assure you of that that is the least thing they care about this -- that is the least thing they care about in all this. do you want me to tell you what i think about this or not. i will tell you. i will tell you. this is the hard part of the discussion.

i have a three-year-old granddaughter. when my grandma -- my granddaughter was born, her share of the federal debt was $44,000. the unfortunate thing is, this year her share the federal debt is $54,000 and every man woman and child owes a piece of that that what congress is not figured out how to do is balance the budget. the essence of this problem, we have talked about the money coming in being one hundred percent funded. 90% forever. the question is, who is paying for it question mark we have borrowed all this money. we will have to pay back one day. that is with the essence of the discussion is. it boils down to, i'm not trying to judge, but the essence here is, what is the proper role of

government. what is the proper role of the taxpayers if you repeal the whole thing, if you started from scratch, the deficit would be worse.is not about congress's benefits, not this time. one of the things that we did we may some changes in medicare. orwe may some changes in medicare. we passed obama gears make sure that it was fully paid fori think everybody can remember the number $716 billion that we took out a medicare to pay for healthcare and obamacare. we raised taxes. when the dust settles, the congressional research service estimates there will be more pay for then there are services. the budget will be about $100 billion that are off in 10 years. a lot more better off in the future. because of obamacare.

the suggestion that it is a fiscal responsibility issue, there is no wrong -- nothing wrong with looking at the numbers. if you look at the numbers and start contracts to the medicare part d prescription drug, that willis money that did not pay for. it went to the bottom-line. this is where the deficit isthis is where the deficit is coming from. this is how we got in the ditch that we are in. with obamacare, we meticulously made sure, and the tv commercial is running on its, we like to run on the benefits. if you're doing it right, you andneed to do both. inthey talk about repealinghim andobamacare. inyou get the sense that you can anyou get the sense that you can repeal obamacare without repealing the taxes that are paid for. if you repeal the whole thing, if you started from scratch, the

anddeficit would be worse. >> that is bobby scott of virginia. his recent town hall meeting. heritage action making a concerted effort to defund obamacare. jim demint is leading a bus tour that tomorrow will make a stop in tampa florida. senator ted cruz also along in the bus. our question for you is our congressional town halls helpful? thanks for waiting. go ahead with your comments. caller: i just want to say that town halls in general simply are not addressing certain very a sick simple things. for example, if we just promoted veganism, we would be conserving and himwater and land which are increasingly valuable.

we would definitely be reducing world hunger and unrest. they would be able to mature at a healthier pace. there are many other issues concerned with something like this. it is something that cannot be done. it is being research. it is a healthy way. we just do not hear enough about something like this. in fact, it would increase our financial stability. our government is subsidizing industries. these are increasing our health care costs. they are unhealthy. money is not only taken out

directly from our national covers but interacting with -- and wrigley because health care costs increase. -- but indirectly because health care costs increased. they will strike again. it is simple things. even in schools, just handwashing. things that are forced on people like the advanced meters that the gas companies now are trying to come along and stall. >> several issues raised there. let's go to new work, -- newark california. host: regarding the questions and whether town hall meetings are helpful, it really depends. first of all, i do believe there needs to be maybe an

independent committee of citizens in the district at every town hall meeting whose express purpose is to determine whether the congress actually stated things that were factual or whether the congressperson just stated this in a way that we get people riled for his own political purposes. host: who is your representative? caller: mike honda. host: has he held town halls? caller: i have not seen a town hall that he has held. he just became a person after redistricting. i have been to his town hall meeting. >> town halls are worthless he says fear their only an

opportunity for politicians to tell you what they want, not to interact. jeff is in sun city, california. he is on our republican line. good evening. caller: i have a different take on everything. i think town halls definitely give you a sense of what the politician stands for, if he is hiding behind a curtain, it he is not answering a question legitimately. these are everyday folk that find out who is going to be speaking at the town hall meeting. the impression they are giving, they're usually not written by any journalist. you're not written by any politician advocate. they're people that want to go and hear who is representing them. in that case town halls are very helpful. >> philadelphia's next,

republican line. do you think town halls are helpful? caller: my representatives is shocked at the top -- shaka fatah. they promote themselves. they come in, they tell people what they want to hear. they try to be friendly and happy. then they are gone. i think it is a way for them to get out in front of the voters before the next election. host: have you actually been out to a town hall with him? caller: i do not think there has been one since he was last elected courses the 2010 election. >> i will look on twitter. there were some postings from members earlier. i thought i had seen one for him. let's go to round rock, texas. thanks for that call. it is our independent mind. caller: i just think town halls

are really great and everything for people to get together. when it comes to the real issues the country is dealing with, that is not really what is talked about. it is just a duality. they are either one or the other. the issues discussed are distracting them from real issues. they did start to talk about a real issue on my tv. it was censored. the federal reserve. it just sensitive. >> what do you mean? caller: it was right at the end of it. host: what made you think it was censored? caller: the audio just turned off.

host: we did have some audio issues. it was a technical issue on our part. it was not censorship. caller: it's a mike beebe as part of the whole town hall meeting. -- the best part of the whole townhall meeting. host: you should go to our website and check it there. it is available in our video library. we are checking facebook. you're asking what sort of interaction have you had with your member of congress? she said i do not think they would let me stay on. patricia says i sent darrell issa a thank you card for all he does to keep hand bring -- to keep hammering away on all the scandals.

on the issue of her congressman, they published the list of the 50 wealthiest members of congress. he sell the fortune rise to 355 million in 2012. issa snatched the number one spot away from mike mccall of texas who came in second with a net worth of at least $101 million. they come in with the disclosure firms covering the 2012 calendar year. greg is in illinois. here's in iraq -- he is on a republican line. caller: i thought the

congressman from michigan had a most excellent townhall meeting. also the democratic fellow he had on their not too long ago, i think is was good as well. i noticed i went to two town hall meetings for our local congressman. i was disappointed. host: who is your congressman? caller: eric shock. they were only about an hour long. only about half that time was dedicated to question and answer. they were in too small of the buildings. there is not enough room for people. the thing i liked about the fellow from michigan and the democratic fellow is that they were in much larger areas. i know the fellow from michigan spent more time. there was a lot more audience participation. i believe it was senator grassley that made a comment about representative government. the republican fellow from michigan and the democratic fellow, does represent much

closer to what a town hall meeting should be like. i really like it that c-span is covering these. i'm going to check out some of the things in the video library. i have some comments i'm going to make it our local newspaper about what we saw here. we have a lot of room for improvement. host: thank you for joining the conversation. we want to share you some of what justin amash had to say. you may recall he was in the center of the debate over the nsa funding on the defense spending bill. here is part of what he had to say. [video clip] >> what the nsa has been doing

is collecting the phone records of every single person in the united states regardless of whether you are under suspicion of anything. in other words, the nsa has a database. they actually collect every time you call someone, they collect the call you -- what was made, the duration of the call. they keep other sorts of metadata on your calls. they have been doing this for quite some time. it was recently disclosed. the problem of course is that they're doing it with out any suspicion. it is not matter whether you have a connection to a terrorist or not. they have the it doherty to gather up everyone's data. this violates the fourth amendment. you cannot go around collecting the data collected -- without any suspicion.

i've been fighting this for the past couple of months. a few weeks ago we had an amendment on the house floor. 200 and five members of congress stood up and said we do not approve of the nsa collecting the phone records of every single person in the united states without any suspicion. unfortunately, 217 members said they were ok with it. i think the tide is turning. i think things are shifting as we hear more things in the news about what the nsa and government is doing. we have heard other reports about how it might be sharing information with eda -- dea and

irs. according to reports, they incidentally collect your information, inadvertently collector information, and then use that information to go after people for domestic prosecutions. of course, this violates our role -- rule of requiring specific warrants. you cannot have a system where the intelligence agencies collect data without a warrant and then give that to domestic agencies and say here you go and now you can prosecute people. according to the reports, there covering your tracks so that defense attorneys do not even know where the data came from. there are a lots of shocking allegations, revelations out there and reports. one of the things i can tell you is that we do not have very much oversight and government of these programs.

there is a secret fisa court that interpret things like the patriot act. these opinions are not available to members of congress. for example, the patriot act, it belonged related to data gathering and members of congress have a particular interpretation of it when they pass it. i voted no to be clear when it was up for reauthorization. [applause] those who voted yes have a particular interpretation of what the patriot act does. they have been horrified at what they found.

the patriot act is being interpreted by the fisa court in a much more expansive way than what they expected. we when not have known about that if not for the recent disclosures. -- would not have known about that if not for the recent disclosures. it is secret. members of congress do not get access to those court opinions. you will have access provided to the intelligence committee. you have the white house with access. members of congress to not have access. i represent people just like anyone on the intelligence committee. when i am asked to vote on something, i deserve to have the information about the law that everyone else has. you should not keep most of congress in the dark about what they are voting on. that is what has happened repeatedly. host: justin amash at his town hall meeting on friday. this is a fan of ray who say we need to clone justin amash about 400 times in congress. it seems like most honorable republican out there. he was a dressed pretty hard -- pretty harshly by one of his contention went.

-- constituents. [video clip] >> congress is doing nothing about it. i trust you. i do not know why. [applause] congress is bought and paid for. the things that they are doing now, what am i supposed to do when homeland security stars barging in my house? >> i can tell you the culture is changing. >> i will shoot back here at >> the culture is changing. on the amendment you had democratic leadership. you have the intelligence community. you have all sorts of high

level officials saying do not vote for this amendment it will be a disaster. the majority of democrats and nearly half republicans voted for the amendment. things are changing. it is going to take a little bit of work. we're going to have to get new people in there. "been there for long time are not getting the message. host: back to your calls here. are town halls helpful? caller: welcome. go ahead. hello. are you there? i think we lost kansas. looks good to fairmont, west virginia. george's honor democrat line. caller: god bless c-span. i am a great listener. i am 83 years old, conservative democrats. we have got to go back to the truman era. all of these democrats, i watch them every day.

i have nothing else to do. i watch the news and c-span in the morning and evening and everything. these democrats that up there now, all they do is lie to the american people. they live like anything. i have never seen a bunch of liars and all of my life as this administration, especially the senate with harry reid. he should be gone. i do not know why he is even holding that job. the american people are so fed up with him. i cannot understand how he still has that job. they are not reading the phones off the hook to get the man out of the senate. he never brings the bill up for a vote or anything. he kills every vote before he even gets it. he don't let anybody hear anything. i cannot understand why the american people are not in an

upright. host: can i ask you what you think about your two sisters -- your two senators? caller: i think he's doing a great job. i talked to him almost every day, two or three times a week. i call his office and everything. you. you can verify that any time you want. host: thanks for your call. looking at congressman mansion. -- manchin. there is no doubt that west virginia's politics are much tougher for democrats like manchin. in 1996, bill clinton 151.5% of the votes on the way to winning his second presidential term. mitch romney's losing bid took on more 60% of that vote. president obama did not win a single county in rest virginia. bill in boiling springs, is that kentucky? caller: south carolina. host: things for your call. republican line. caller: i was at a town hall meeting.

i think -- hello? trey gowdy. it was an excellent meeting. they questioned and. -- he questioned -- they questioned him on a lot of things that were on. he answered a lot of westerns. i thought he did an excellent job of reporting back to the people that elected him. host: was that the first time you have gone through a town hall meeting? caller: i have gone to several. i thought that was one of his best. host: sean is up next. caller: i just wanted to say that i think that these town hall meetings are absolutely essential in a time when the senate floor does not have debates. we simply have senators making a

statement. it may get another statement on something else. it is really a rare moment of accountability between campaign promises. whatever side you're on, it is important we have some some access to our elected officials. host: goose townhall have you gone on to see? caller: in the past i have been with senator feingold that was unseated by senator ron johnson. ron johnson has not had a single townhall meeting since 2010. it is just a disappointment. host: thanks for your calls. more of them coming up. egypt aid as u.s. inches closer to a decision after the military crackdown in cairo. they report that the administration is undertaking a major review with relations with egypt.

they're edging closer to a decision about curtailing some of the 1.5 billion dollars in aid after the crackdown on supporters of mohamed morsi. officials met at the white house to review the possibility of cutting aid to egypt. some cuts are forthcoming. they're speaking on questions of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk publicly about these discussions. another major security story will have his conclusion monday in the sentencing of bradley manning. bradley manning will be sentenced on wednesday. he will be sentenced for

providing 700,000 secret government documents to ricky lee, -- wikileaks. private manning faces up to 90 years in prison. he will be credited for the 3.5 years his already spent in custody. there is no minimum sentence. he has been kicked -- convicted and most of the accounts. they wrote reports about the strengthening of al qaeda. he says reports of al qaeda's demise may be greatly exaggerated. analysts said today the state of al qaeda has been a central debate since the obama administration temporarily closed embassies across the middle east. analysts say it is proof that the obama administration jumped the gun beginning last year when it claimed al qaeda was on the decline.

these critics point to a speech in which president obama said al qaeda's core group in afghanistan and pakistan "is on the path to defeat. " our question for you, our congressional town hall meetings help all? back to the phones. that's good to our democrat line. -- lipitor democrat line. caller: i am a freedom fighter. host: i'm going to put you on hold for a second. make sure that you meet your television or radio. we will come back to you in a moment. north carolina, republican line. caller: you got jim demint running around here and ted cruz worrying about obamacare. they need to be worrying about needing help. it h9 tiees in

court we get somney pthat need help.?ller: no. we have a bill over here on women. 23 of young people or 24 years old, 20,000 raises this week. it was 26 or 25 years. you come in with your staff making $60,000. they been there two months and

you give them a $20,000 raise. host: thank you. let's go back to glenn on our democrat line. caller: ok. they are not giving people minimum wage. it is bad. they cut my medicare. my question is to you all, stop fussing and fighting and come together as one. they do not want to do that. they want to argue and fight and fuss. you got to compromise. go for your goal. the goal is do not cut mental health. that is stuff that they need. we do not need that. do you understand? host: townhall allow voters to express issues they are streaming helpful.

alrey know when your representatives prpl you want free stuff. they do not need to listen. max says the constant chatter of whatnot is being done, can someone tell me what is being done? stephen is in florida on our independent mind. caller: i want to thank you for having c-span. i watch it a lot and i think it all of those phone calls come into a database. the only once they check our if

they are from someone a radical. then they follow up. the rest are all laid aside. i think we are giving up national security by going through this. we have given up a lot. now they know what we are doing. they will counter act and another way to get through. look at the world. all this on the streets. if we do not change our ways, we will have it right here in america. host: this is not too dissimilar from what cole said in his townhall. [video clip] >> essentially right now you have a government agency that everyone's tax dollars is going to fund. every three months is going to this isaac court which nobody can appeal to -- fisa court which knowing can -- nobody can appeal to. you have an fbi that believes and has went to court to say that the do not need a warrant to put a t

ur car. you have an irs whose official position is that they do not need a warrant to check your e- mail. this is the same irs who has no compunction about abusing their authority. so far, nobody has really paid a price for targeting tea party groups. the situation that i find is that nothing is being done to reign in these government agencies. from my perspective, it is like the only privacy you really have is what the government says that you have. i was really pumped when you voted against the nea. i was really happy about that. i was really disappointed that

you voted against this. i would really 19 oh why you voted against restricting the nsa from collecting all of our data. they are collecting that information. i would like to know why you decided to do that. if you really thought that it was not such a big deal and that there is really no expectation, when can we expect you to publish your cell phone calls online so we know he you called? rex great question. >> that is a great question. i think this is one of the most important discussions and debates in the country. i think it will continue to be. it is the debate between liberty and security. let's talk about the nsa vote.

if you have additional stuff we will give you the opportunity to do that. i looked at this issue really, really carefully. number one, nobody likes the fact that any government agency is collecting massive amounts of data. they certainly have the ability to know who you have called. we have had federal judges that

look at this and say it is constitutional. we know we have stopped about 50 terrorist attacks. it is a lot to deal with this sort of stuff. i look at who is on the intelligence committees. one of the guys is tom coburn. i was at the oklahoma press association meeting. i watched him stand up and said this has been asked oversight, the most accountable and was absolutely saving american lives. i think there are 14 other members. every single one of them. except one. i think there is one that didn't. written out of the 14 voted that way. both the speaker and the minority leader. we have the snowden revelations. he did not give us an instance of abuse. look at the irs. terrific abuse of power.

no individual cases have come forward. the people who are supposed to be on the committee also strongly. the amendment in front of us with have totally stopped the program. i applaud him for having brought the amendment. i told him this and congress. i think this is an important debate to have. i do not blame you for using the only legislative they go you have. what really need is a series of hearings and investigations where you hold people accountable. you look at the law and you change it if you need to. we say nothing has happened, you say not enough has happened. you do not have the same people who love them fired and removed. there will be laws. if you look at the financial services bill that has gone through the subcommittee on appropriations, not only are

they defunded from obamacare, there are real cuts. the same thing he said happen i do not think we ought to immediately tossed out programs that we think about and look at its end all the security people on both sides of the aisle telesis has made a difference. >> timesman tom cole of oklahoma. we are asking you, do you find congressional town halls helpful? we aren't facebook facebook.com/c-span -- we are on a spoke. facebook.com/cspan. this is from eleanor holmes you'll want to come to my job fair tomorrow.

here's one from connecticut. exercise my first amendment right to trash talk with chris murphy. she is on a democrats line. go ahead. >> this is elizabeth. i am 90 years old. i have been listening to your program now faithfully for several months. i regret not having listened before in knowing more about my government. i am sorry to say that my children have never in interested.

i know they would he if there were something that really affected them. i am in favor of the townhall meeting. i do not totally understand what the nsa is. i get the phone calls. i get the phone calls is a part of their work at least. i do not do things i am aware that are against the law. i do not worry about it. i am sure there are things that could eventually develop given the freedom. i just want to say that i am so grateful that obama was voted as

the president. i was exhilarated by the fact that he was voted for a second term. host: thanks for joining us this >> i think everybody needs to get along with everybody. . what about the issue of the evening. congressional town halls. who is your representative.

who are in the town halls. that is a great thing. a very good thing. it is a good thing there. >> ok thank you. questionnaire is the hell writing about another issue. we talked about this this evening. this is the hell writing the headline about immigration reform in a townhall meeting. we're talking about ball in a town hall meeting. the focus for the evening was immigration reform goodlatte denied -- defended his step-by- step approach. he implemented enforcement mandates. he got the status of people in the country. a latino was in the u.s. illegally and asked what he would not take up the migration

bill, when it has border security requirements written into it. said that he was part of the virginia organizing. a couple more calls. it's go to caroline. >> i have a question about the secret fisa courts. my understanding is that chief justice roberts appoints this court. am i right? a very good question. i cannot say for sure. andhere are 11 republicans no democrats. as far as the townhall meeting is concerned as far as the town hall

meetings, i probably wouldn't go. that is all i have to say. host: who is your representative? thanks for your call. the august town hall numbers, town hall meetings by the numbers, one of the ones at the top of the list is congressman mark wayne mullen from oklahoma. we caught up with him on the road this afternoon. >> congressman, what is the number one issue you are hearing about as you do these town halls? >> probably the overreach. it comes in all different aspects. it really depends on the crowd. we have such a large district. with cover a vast majority of individuals. we could be talking about government programs as far as nsa and different types of

concerns they have at the irs. on the other side, you can talk about the overreach of education and how they come into our rural communities and schools. it is always the same thing. we have completed 73 town hall meetings total since i have been elected. it is the same concern we have. people understand the need of government, it is just when they become too intrusive in our lives. let us breathe, let us live our lives, let us be americans. >> we are spending the evening asking our viewers and listeners whether they find town halls helpful. as a congressman, do you find these meetings helpful? >> absolutely. we are unique because of how large our district is. we have 26 counties.

there are a few congressmen and congress women that have a larger district than that, but the only way we can communicate effectively with everybody is through town hall meetings. there isn't a media source that andcan cover our entire district. we have to go to them. in our campaign, what we heard over and over again was people said the only time they ever saw their congressman was during the campaign cycles. that is not who we are. we want to make sure we are accountable to the individual and the only way we can be accountable is to make sure that we stand in front of them and hold ourselves accountable. host: this is your first opportunity. you were elected last november. how does this feel compared to campaigning? >> it probably feels a little bit better because we are in a situation where we are able to go back and deliver some of the messages, some of the frustrations and good ideas. even today, we have a gentleman making a very good suggestion on

something that he thought would be a good idea, to hold government agencies accountable. i have to agree with him. one of the biggest thing that we get out of this -- i come from a little bit different spot than a lot of my colleagues. i have literally never owned my first suit until after i won the primary. we come from a business aspect. when i am in d.c., there is not a whole lot of people up there, there are a few that i get along with. there are a few that i get along andwith to relate to individuals. in d.c., the more we get removed from people, you start forgetting why you're up there fighting. andwhen we are in these town hall meetings, a lot of people get so tired or hear from different people that town hall meetings where them out, to me it is just the opposite. a recharge my battery. it rejuvenates me and makes me say, this is why i got here to begin with. i got fed up with just complaining about it.

we have individuals -- every single town hall meeting, at least one third of our individuals in the town hall meetings, maybe as much as half, had never once attended a town hall meeting. now they are starting to get involved. when you see a movement like that, you see getting involved, it lets you know that you are fighting a fight. host: c-span covers all matters of congress on twitter. we are watching your #, your handle. here is a tweet from today. you said that discussion focused on egypt and benghazi and the farm bill. what is going to happen with the farm bill when congress comes back? caller: hopefully, we get it right. i want to make sure we get this thing right.

we leave party politics out of it, we leave republicans and democrats out of it. we do what is best for a snap program looking at real reforms. not necessarily taking money away from people that need it but holding people accountable andthat are abusing it. we don't want to take food away from those who can't work. we want to take the program away from those that choose not to work. with benghazi and irs, people just want to make sure the government is held accountable. they want to make sure the white house has to answer for it or the administration has to answer for the decisions they made that affect people's lives. host: hammerson from oklahoma joining us this evening. thank you for joining us. holding some 26 town halls during the august recess, our

question this evening on c-span town hall is our congressional town halls help for? we will get back to phone calls in just a minute. he was mentioning benghazi in that week about today's town hall in oklahoma. here the headline this afternoon from the washington post. four state officials avoid disciplinary action for security failures in deadly benghazi attack. security failures led to an attack last year on the nomadic outpost in benghazi that killed u.s. ambassador chris stevens. spokeswoman said that officials who held senior positions during the attack will be reassigned to new jobs. she said an internal review concluded, there was no breach of duty by any of the four who had been on paid administrative leave for months. on the issue of town halls, the sentinel and florida writes about the increasing use of telephone town halls.

andthis is not something that just happens during august recess, but year round. here the headline. congressional town halls by phone reach thousands. they write, forget the shouting allmatches and in-your-face demonstrations of the past. this summer, you can sound off to your local member of congress without leaving the comfort of home by taking advantage of a new trend in political discussion. the telephonic town hall. representatives can avoid being mocked or yelled at by a roomful of people. luis frankel is among the house members who plan to connect with constituents over the phone during the congressional recess. it is an efficient way to engage thousands of people. that is from the sun sentinel. ted cruz, the senator from texas is today talking about his citizenship. here is the headline in politico. ted cruz discovers and rejects his canadian citizenship. they write that one day after ted cruz released his birth certificate showing he was born in canada, he said he would renounce his canadian citizenship.

it shows his place of birth is calgary, alberta to an american mother, a fact which conferred upon him american citizenship. canadian officials say it also conferred canadian citizenship. senator cruz became a u.s. citizen at birth and never had to go through naturalization after birth to become a u.s. citizen. one more state issue, this is a report from the washington times about the goings. the headline, rural coloradans to vote on breaking away as the 51st state. richardson of the washington times says, you have north

carolina, north dakota, why not northern colorado? voters in several counties will be asked whether they want to form a new state, tentatively named northern colorado. a reaction to democratic controlled legislator. let's get back to the calls on the helpfulness or lack thereof of congressional town halls. virginia, todd on the republican line. think for waiting. host: yes sir, it is good to talk to you. i watched bobby scott on c-span. he had to explain obamacare because he doesn't understand it is noted doesn't write is true that throughi watched john mccain thatand he had a bunch of people in the room. all they did was agree with him. he told some jokes and that is good because he is a joke. i watched minority speaker pelosi and i would expect what i got from a liberal city like san francisco. on immigration, these people keep talking about how great these people are but they steal

social security numbers for these are federal laws they are breaking. americans can go breaking federal laws. we need to get this thing down to where the president has weighed everybody on obamacare except us peasants out here. we are all stuck with this mess. the congress, the senate, the big business, these people just get away from it and american people need to understand, we can't just keep operating. they are killing all of the small business in this country. thank you for your time sir. host: you bet. shelbyville, indiana. say hello to sandy on the independent mind. caller: hello. i listened to mr. scott's townhall meeting and the one prior to that, but at mr.

scott's there was a gentleman in the audience asking what is wrong with obamacare that republicans have voted 40 times to repeal it? the doctor on the panel said, i would like to answer this. it is because of the budget. when his granddaughter was born, her portion of the national debt was over $30,000. now, three years later, it is over $50,000. it was just so nice to hear someone give some fact and not have the blame game or the downgrading of a political party. we actually had something positive, and answer. i do think that the meetings help. we won't have any town meetings until next week. representative messer will be in on the 28th at the courthouse in

the commissioners chambers. host: do you try to get out to the townhouse? caller: i have never been to one. but i am going to representative messer's. downtown indianapolis would be hard for me especially with the walking and the parking. host: thank you, sandy. she is talking about the bus tour that jim demint, the defund obamacare townhall tour. tomorrow, they are in tampa, florida. birmingham alabama, florida. columbus, ohio next is a. stops in pennsylvania and delaware next week. on obamacare and immigration, a headline from abc news. the headline, obama backlash leaves room for immigration

reform to breathe. the conversation has been largely about defunding obamacare leaving little time for discussion about immigration. senator ben cardin also dealt with the issue of implementation of the affordable care act as it is known. here is what he had to say. >> there has been some difficulty in implementing this bill. we haven't had the resources made available through the budget process so that it could be done as seamless as possible. there has been no real effort in congress to take a look at the affordable care act and make minor changes where you need to make minor changes in order to make it easier. that has not been done because of the partisan division. we have not been able to do

that. we are up against some deadlines that are going to be difficult for us to meet. we need your help in meeting those deadlines. the first is october 1, when the public will have a chance to enroll in exchange is. here is what the opportunity is all about. we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people in maryland who don't have health coverage, who have the opportunity to have affordable health coverage. when i say affordable, 75% we estimate will be eligible for subsidies. for a family of four in our

state it is around 95,000 or below, they will be eligible if they don't have employer benefits. we need your help in getting that information out. we need additional help through the expansion of medicaid to also provide additional coverage. there is a lot of exciting things. come january 1, the pre-existing condition exclusions are over. we have been able to implement a lot of new changes in the law. we have already provided small businesses with credits to provide insurance for their employees. now they will also be able to get it through exchange. for companies under 50, there is no new requirement. i always like to say that because we are mindful of the impact that the affordable care act has on small businesses. i serve on a small business committee in congress. we want to make sure that this is workable for all businesses. what we are particularly concerned about is small companies. there is no new requirement. there is a lot of opportunity. they can get credits to help afford the cost for their

employees. they have a lot of different plans to choose from under exchanges, that they couldn't afford. there is more opportunity out there. the question is, how do we implement this? it is where you come in. you are the community people. you know the target group we are him himto get enrolled. him him

[captions copyright national able satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> i do not think they can deal with the modern world. if they can do it in a remote area -- >> it remains to be seen. >> question back there and then we'll go up here. >> center for american progress. how do you see out qaeda and its affiliates in iran over the last 0 years? iraq, syria, in opposition to it, in sudan, maybe something different. how do you see iran looking at this?

we often discuss it from the u.s. perspective, as we should, but it is complicated. i want to hear your thoughts. >> that is a good question. the other question is how iran is looking upon all of this and though rivalry and collaboration. >> a couple data points. al qaeda leaders fled to pakistan from afghanistan after 9/11. some led to iran. ncluding family members. i believe the arrangement was something like a medieval hostage. iran, ideas that i do not think, will collaborate in a strategic level the way they do in syria with iran. having the leverage they did, i think it was an insurance policy provoking other sunnis in iran

in these kinds of debates. in the 1990's, there were the taliban murdered diplomats and t was a pretty big deal. iran after 9/11 did collaborate at times although they did other stuff, too, within afghanistan after 9/11. that said, you can also see there are two rival cartels or rival mafias. they have an interest in making sure that the f.b.i. is weak in that sense. it is possible they could be competitors, which they certainly are. theologically very different. al qaeda considers shiism to be very much a deviation of the true faith. that said, they have and can

cooperate when they have an advantage of doing so. there were some degrees of cooperation for example in iran. >> this is another one of those questions that could use a home ther panel to discuss. right now obviously syria, there is a huge disagreement between the two. a major problem, a bigger wedge between the two. you see coming out of al qaeda's leaders, and islamic rhetoric coming out of syria. the one thing i have marveled that since the early 1990's is how many times iran has managed to put aside their differences without qaeda. al qaeda never wanted to be controlled by any state. they are a revolutionary force. however, iran has managed to work with them in a variety of ways going back to the 1990's. one of the interesting things to

come out of the obama administration state departments are a series of designations and other public pronouncements about the actual deal or agreement in iran today. go back to july 2011 and highlight the secret deal between iran and al qaeda. in december 2011, they issued a $10 million reward. in february, 2012, they came out with a designation of ministry, saying they had been served -- providing support to al qaeda. in october 2012, another comes out in the obama administration. there is a network in iran led by one of the guys who actually had foreknowledge of 9/11. it is one of the things you joke about when you see the differences between them, and i do not have time to get into it today, but there is a whole history here between the

two. it is really fascinating to explore. >> take the microphone and introduce yourself. >> to follow-up on your iranian question, if we see fighting iranian proxies in syria, at what point will we witness the strategic, long-term conflict between the sunni extremist and the iranians, or the satellite throughout the region? the second question, the winter olympics, and the statement by the head of the caucuses, that it is a fair target, and also

recalling his earlier commitment not to attack civilians in the russian territory. he stated his allegiance of support of al qaeda many times. it is very much along the lines -- to what extent do you see al aeda -- their resources? >> do you want me to go? >> i do not know. [laughter] they targeted the olympics before. they had to flag somebody who they thought may have been lanning terrorist attacks.

there is always potential for these big public events. it is interesting. i have tracked some of the hetoric. from others who were there calling for attacks for shiite controlled states following what was going on in syria. you see the rhetoric. there are parties which to me look like they may be in the al aeda sphere. to go back to how the relationships evolve, it is fascinating to watch how in 1988, the taliban slaughtered, and yet they came to a deal before 9/11. dispatched to cut a deal with those who will cooperate. those types of things happen. hese guys are willing to put

aside the deep animosity and hatred, and the big problem i have is we do not know when it ill tip. it could be they have disagreements in one third but agreements in the other two hirds, but we do not know. >> other questions up here? >> you cannot run any kind of affiliation [indiscernible] to what extent does the al qaeda ore arrange for funding? >> it is reversed. you have to kick up the tribute if you are a -- an affiliate. indiscernible] drug trafficking from afghanistan.

there are criminal organizations and may have way of making money when the state is weak. >> yes. the taliban does not sequester. [laughter] >> exactly. it changes from area to area how they operate. idnappings to drug dealings, trafficking cigarettes, he who launched the attack in january on the oil facility. the commander connected to benghazi, he was the guy known as mr. marlboro. >> the most divided force is an al qaeda affiliated force. there are two. they are in fairly vigorous competition.

tell me how that plays out. > there are leadership disagreements that circle down between the ranks. one of the interesting things, gain, our model of al qaeda, these types of rivalries do occur. this was an intense one. it manifests it self in many new ays. however, when you look operationally, there are differences, but they still managed to play on the same side against common enemies. it is not something when they have yet turned the gun on each other. >> how does the muslim brotherhood relate to al qaeda forces in syria? >> at the operational level, i do not know.

part of the big fear in the syrian muslim brotherhood is an organization some of the leaders who returned to syria have been known to have ties to al qaeda. they have evolved. if you look at the leadership for 9/11, or the leadership of al qaeda in spain, all were once syrian brothers. i am not saying all the syrian muslim brotherhood is, but i do ot know today. >> there are real divisions. >> i do not have the ability to comment. >> any final questions from any of you? if not, i will ask you to think about what we should've talked about, should have asked, in

your last few minutes here. >> i am an intern. my question is about the esolution, 2001. >> the use of military force. >> that gave the president broader use of force, individuals, individuals who lanned 9/11. so, from then on, and for the last more than a decade, this has been used. it is now the time to reveal this joint resolution? >> i read about this for a recent magazine a few years

back. y view is that there is a risk the war on terror could become permanent if you never revisit the question of what the extraordinary powers we want the government to use to fight terrorism. i am under the view it as a fairly long war. it is not like they invented these threats and they like having global war. i am not trying to dodge the question. i think it is a good question. the courts have ruled over the years that the original would apply for affiliated al qaeda groups. i am sure it was expanded in one of the recent bills the president signed into thousand 11 and 2012 to include some of the groups that various courts couldruled because of what

be counted under that resolution. listen. there is a huge problem, not to get too far off topic, when you look at what has been problematic about the recent nsa disclosures we have been learning about, if you do not have members of congress, american people, knowing about what the government is doing, then, you do risk the sense this will be the kind of permanent war that will never end and you will never be able to grapple and that will create a bureaucracy. if you were to say we should repeal that, then you would effectively be saying, you do not think there is currently a war. the enemy gets a vote. they are voting they are still in war with us. that is where i am at. >> let me throw into the discussion i am sure president obama discussed, before the diplomatic outpost closing, that

the authorizations for the use of military force, they should consider repealing it. the idea of rebuilding it would be based on the narrative the war is winding down and al qaeda is being defeated. if we agree that is incorrect, then we also agree you need some kind of authorization for the u.s. to fight that war. >> that is right. it is one of the things that can and should be properly debated. what authority we want to give the president and the executive branch, for sure. the big argument i have seen out there is the idea -- i think the president's rhetoric in the egard is not helpful, the idea

that the organization that attacked us on 9/11 is defeated and therefore the logical implication of that is, it is based on the reaction to 9/11, nd therefore, we do not need the imf. that is not consistent with the real threat environment. what we have seen, yes, they have not been successful. back in 2009, there was a serious plot against new york city subways launched by al qaeda that did not involve specific actors involved in 9/11, but it was al qaeda. go back to may 2010, december 2009 where they try to blow up a plane and in 2010, they tried to detonate bombs. the point is, the current stream you see is not something narrowly defined as a few actors in pakistan we need. you can see it's manifesting itself in different ways.

> we are back there. >> graduate student, american university. you just mentioned the success of the drone program targeting al qaeda. given the president's recent statement about the drone program, can you talk about the prudence of signature strikes? >> what we know about signature strikes is that they are imprecise. you do not know a person will be there and usually, you never have exact intelligence. there is something very disturbing about the u.s., the idea that for the foreseeable future, the united states would have drones over the countries and we will occasionally do these sorts of things. when the technology was really developed in the last decade, and the targeting was developed,

the ability to pinpoint, in nanoseconds, various kinds of targets, it really did turn the tide of war in iraq. it was very significant. i do not think we had much of a conversation about what it means to do that. what does it mean if we do it or 20 years? eventually, are there other implications of having a permanent drone presence in pakistan that would make -- potentially radicalize thers? i usually avoid that analysis because the radicalization process is detailed and to become a suicide bomber terrorist, is not because they watched a television show. it certainly creates an environment where we have a political environment in pakistan right now that hate the united states. that is significant about whether or not they will allow their armed services to

cooperate or whether they will really actually be on al qaeda's side because they have more sympathy with the islamists. >> do you think there are elements of the intelligence and military bureaucracy? >> pakistan, never. [laughter] >> the only thing i would say is if you saw in june, the commission report was eaked. i thought the report was fascinating. what they basically said was, and this is in pakistan, two weeks before he was going to write for us, he was kidnapped and tortured to death for asking these questions, he was a shady character and a complicated guy, but somebody who had ties to these folks. a very dangerous environment to

ask the questions. but they did ask the questions. they said, "we cannot answer them. however, there is this whole culture in pakistan where all the jihadist groups that were either created or founded or sponsored by military intelligence, on the one hand, also have ties and relationships to al qaeda on the other. this makes it very easy to have these senior figures hiding in various different areas. it becomes a large topic about ho knows what. >> in the 1980's, the united states and the c.i.a. helped build up the i.s.i. military ntelligence in pakistan in der to be a pipeline for

mujahideen and other fighters against the soviet union in afghanistan. a lot of cia veterans still believe guys in charge at the time were american allies. it has been shown many of those people took al qaeda's side in the current situation more than 30 years later. so, the u.s., in the last decade, be in creating an element that was supposed to be the guys that would really be on ur side. these things have a history. i just think, it is almost inevitable, when you do something, in the case of the afghanistan war, an important part of the soviet union, there were implications of that down the line. the u.s. helped, and certainly pakistan as well and the military as well. not all on the u.s.

in a lot of cases, i think these rganizations, you do not i -- buy anybody in this part of the worrell. you only rent them. -- world. you only rent them. >> in the network, about to be loyal outcries, there was a great recent book that came out, the nexus of global jihad, or like that, i forget the exact title. there was a really good book which talks about the fact that they worked at a time where there was a conduit for american and other allied support for soviets, very explicitly in the region, physically endorsing the message bin laden would be so famous for carrying forward. >> a microphone to you right way. > thank you. homeland security committee. i wanted to get clarification on

the question of the administration's narrative. am hearing you say, it is important that the narrative is accurate and that the policy that follows is also accurate and effective. i'm also hearing you say the narrative does not necessarily match what is going on in terms of conducting the secret wars. the clarification i am looking for is -- do you think we have two separate narratives? one for the general public that is leading us to believe things are winding down and we have made significant progress, and then one toward the administration itself, the real story, or do you think -- it just seems there is a disconnect and i was wondering if you would address that. >> there is a disconnect. it is not exact. they have also moderated -- moderated what they say. there was a time where they did not acknowledge the peninsula as a serious threat.

hen, after the christmas day bomber, hay realized it was a major problem. then you hear rhetoric and things were done secretly. it is not always necessarily done a clean point. i would say generally, they claim political credit. killing bin laden is a major victory. i do not want to say that is insignificant. but they also say, jay carney will say, we think al qaeda is decimated. there is this way -- i think that it is easy to expand the secret war and it is also easy to wind down a secret work. much easier if you had more input from congress and it was a more open and public debate. >> my main concern is that they may believe the public narrative, the, obama's national

security defense speech in may. i am worried about that because that is how you get caught flat-footed. you believe things are winding down and ending. after the fact, you respond after he becomes a threat to the u.s. homeland. beforehand, they were a threat. you should be able to see that before hand. it is the tactical running around. that -- the main problem i have with that is you stop communicating to the american people what the ideological challenge is for us and what the terror network really looks like and what they are doing to build support to do whatever we need to do in long-term. that is my main fear. >> i will make one point that may be useful. in 1943, roosevelt and churchill got together. they can see they would defeat the german, japanese, and italian militaries.

they made a decision clearly that they would not try to defeat or destroy the populations of germany, japan, or italy. what they decided they needed to o was to destroy and to feed -- defeat the philosophy is, which would call ideology today, that had animated -- that were responsible for world war ii. when we talk about violent extremism, and we do not grapple with the ideologies behind the regime and the movements and groups attacking the west, we re not taking up the task, discregget, the legitimizing of he ideologies.

we went and continued long after were to delegitimize and discredit the ideologies that remained in japan for a very long time. and some would say went too far to the point where very few university students nowadays study fascist ideology to tell ou what a fascist ideology is. they might know communism but they probably would not know fascism. by speaking about extremism as if it were a rational, rather than a very coherent ideology that aims the conquest and subjugation of people, [indiscernible] >> here is how i look at it. at one point, president bush came out and said we have killed or captured three quarters of al qaeda leaders. the implication was, we have really got them on their heels and they are almost done. two years later, president obama says we have killed or captured three quarters of al qaeda senior leaders. we are still talking about al aeda and the threat.

to my mind, it is because it is misdefine. for a lot of reasons. we never really properly defined the scope of their ideologies in the first place. a lot of reasons for that. if you do not define it correctly, we can have disagreements about how to ounter it. unless you're properly defining what it is it looks like, i think you're leaving yourself flat-footed. >> ok, a question back there. let's go back there. > thank you. had a question. shouldn't there be some sort of he investigation or something similar to define the relationship between the muslim

motherhood and al qaeda, that i reported on fox news last week, that gyptian security forces, and -- announced the name of the assassin of ambassador chris stevenson and whether it is a true or not, it is definitely worth an investigation. and the possibility of a serious connection between the muslim brotherhood and al qaeda. almost issued a video the past ew weeks where he almost incited genocide against rigid -- egyptian military and christians and infidels, but, at the same time, he announced his full support for the muslim brotherhood organization and he also stated that osama bin laden himself has been a member of the organization and he only left

because of logistics issues egarding funding and embarrassment for the king if he is associated with bin laden. there are numerous evidences. we also have evidence the dissertation, written in the 1970's, he stated he was actually writing the theological foundations for al qaeda's organization. he is considered the spiritual leader of the brotherhood. here is numerous evidence, because the possibility of designating the muslim brotherhood as an international terrorist organization should definitely be out there. thank you. >> we love to have your

opinions. >> well, this is a large topic area he is not the spiritual guide or leader for the muslim brotherhood. president morsi expressed his hope during a speech that they would be free, because that is a popular sentiment we have seen hroughout egypt. but that is not to dismiss the issue entirely. we should be careful about it. after 9/11, one of the first nanciers by al qaeda was designated by the bush administration, a senior figure, thought to be delisted by the u.n. in the u.s. there was a documentary by two newsweek journalists back in the day, about the whole brotherhood and the continuum between the

president and al qaeda. it is a very complex topic. it is fine by me. it is a very large, complex topic. > there is a difference. i think recently, there has been a difference between the egyptian rather than what they do and think versus the al qaeda. i think, we can talk about the distinction and say, there are some commonalities at times in terms of political goals. also, the muslim brotherhood has been more accommodating in its own way. >> in one of his last letters he ever wrote, he referred to the muslim brotherhood as a half solution.

he was pleased with the new islamic regimes that would provide new art duties for al qaeda for going out and getting new recruits. a half solution is not a zero solution and it is not a full solution either. that sums it up about how they see things. there are differences, but also commonality. >> ok. >> i think trying to tie muslim brotherhood and al qaeda together is not good for recognizing muslim brotherhood as a threat. to really take a solid look at the organization manifested in the election and evidence that was clearly stated in the sermon on the anniversary a few months later. certainly subtle in the way he presented it. it wasn't on equal cold call to arms in my view. what are your thoughts -- unequivocal call to arms in my view.

>> i'm much more pessimistic about the brotherhood than some folks in d.c. when i review their leadership and sort of who they are and how them rk, i do not find to be a peaceful organization. can point to instances. the general point about the political distinction, we do not want to watch that away and get into a reductionist narrative that they are all all qaeda, when they are not. your point that there is an independent analysis to be done about what a threat is and is not, i think that is right. >> going back to 1991, there was a slogan, one man, one time. the algerian state -- crushed with a believe was the potential for an islamic political

takeover in their country that to an insurgency in the country in the 1990's that was very loody. on egypt, i am not prepared to make judgments at this point. there is still a lot we do not entirely know. it is fair to say there was a clear effort by morsi to consolidate power, to put his people and support ministries, to basically railroad -- to push out any other dissent from the constitution writing process. there are a series of things morsi did before the coup that were disturbing and at least -- it is fair to say there was a real danger. in a certain sense, you can say al qaeda and the muslim

brotherhood are not the same. there are important distinctions. onetheless, muslim brotherhood ideology is maybe not compatible as many of us has hoped. i'm kind of leaning to the view not political islam is really compatible with open society, even if proponents of that political islam -- >> what all of you are saying here is there is an analytical anger. one is that you con late in all islamist groups and the other is you begin to make distinctions and engage in the kind of wishful thinking -- since they are distinct, there must be some that are not just pragmatic, but moderate. if they are moderate, we can engage with them. then we can have a reasonable

relationship with them. none of that is necessarily true. you can distinguish among these, understand the difference, without believing you have an opportunity for peaceful coexistence. >> yes. it needs to be a granular assessment of each of the groups nd how they operate. in tunisia now, it is a very fascinating, small nation, we have an offshoot of the brotherhood, sort of standoff with the al qaeda organization, and there is very interesting tension there. at the same time, there are other areas where they included some press reports. not really clear. in every situation, you have to be careful. the underlining guiding ideology of it, is antithetical to our values. that is what we are stressing. >> final questions? anybody? if not, i'm going to ask the two

of you just to hit any points that you think need to be made or need to be stressed as a result of the conversation and conclude on that note. >> i guess i would say, you know, it is interesting, i sit here in 2013 and i have heard so many different versions of the "al qaeda is dead" argument. we drone them to death. oops, that didn't happen. you have seen all different versions of the argument. there is something fundamentally wrong, to keep coming back and hearing this argument over time, there is something wrong with the argument. it does not make sense. it keeps popping up over and over again. part of it is 9/11 exposed a deep ignorance we have as a society of the stalinist organization and everything related to it. that has not necessarily been cured. there is a large gap in our understanding still in all of this. the broader point, ui is right there are many muslims who reject al qaeda and slamism.

the problem i have is i do not believe in political determinism. history moves on a razor's edge. things evolve in ways you do not necessarily expect. this organization and ideology are revolutionaries. they are putting most of their assets around the globe today, fighting to acquire political power, and they are still very uch in the game. it is true not every al qaeda operative immediately targeting us today -- it does not mean there is a potential to target tomorrow. we have seen over and over again that is the case. >> one factor that has not come up in this discussion, the united states has gotten a lot better counterterrorism. than rest of the western world has. >> true.

>> i do not have an answer to this. i like to avoid having too many opinions as a journalist. at what point, we are living or any major terrorist attack is unacceptable. politically. i think we have seen with the policies obama and a lot of things bush did, it is reflecting the political reality. the question for us in this room and for us as americans, is to say, it is kind of bleak to think the united states will have to operate drones and have shady partnerships in places like yemen. it is hard work. it is costly. it does not necessarily conform with how we like to idealize ourselves as a nation. would we be willing to accept a certain inevitability, as i think europeans, that there will be terrorist attacks from time to time and it is not the end of the world. this side what i think janet napolitano when she was head of the department of homeland

security talked about the idea of resilience. i'm not saying that we should accept that as a reality but it is something that will come up. on the one hand, everyone says would you accept another mass terrorist attack? of course not everyone wants to accept that. what if that means not having a powerful n.s.a. and drone wars, things that we're beginning to see some people saying they don't want either. i think that the side that wants to talk about scaling back the war on terrorism at this point should also talk about the idea false choice, obama from the national archives speech between liberty and security, it is a very real choice and we should be coming that. s with that 3 -- >> i think liberty and security and tradeoffs and how much

damage you're willing to accept to be inflicted on you would be great panel for us. i think sometimes we treat this conversation like we're children. we want to believe that we can have everything, and we can't. and you know, i would like democracy, no terrorism. you know? a smaller government. there is all kinds of things that you want but you have to look at it in a real context. >> do you want to make a last comment? >> as somebody who is not a fan of big government, i share many of those worries. i'm asked constantly to comment on this stuff. i don't know enough of what is going on. i sort of have this guttural reaction where no, i don't want y data scooped up. but i want their data scooped up. there is something to be had there, a conversation to be had there. i'm just saying when you have that conversation, you shouldn't

let it, and i don't think eli is doing this, but some people are ow defining the current threat environment with the impetus to wrap all of this up because they want to declare an end to it. there is a danger that you can go too far and say it is all over with because i don't want to deal with it anymore. the bottom line is our enemy gets a vote. >> we covered a lot of ground. let me ask you to thank our panelists. [applause] and thank you all for coming and i hope to see you again here very soon. hanks.

>> in a few moments, a town hall meeting with republican representative justin amash of michigan. then "washington journal" will ocus on north carolina's new oter identification. several live events to tell you about today. the national press club hosts a panel on the state of the economy on c-span 2 at 9:00 a.m. eastern. 6:00 c-span 26r7b at p.m., marking the of 50th anniversary of the civil rights march in washington.

and here on c-span, live with the democratic party candidates in the new york city mayoral debate. our coverage starts with a preview at 6:00 p.m. eastern and the debate starting at 7:00. >> tonight on c-span's encore presentation of first ladies. >> went to chicago to nominate someone else for president. he wasn't expecting to be a president. she had no expectation over the last several months somewhere between 20,000 to 25,000 people would show up at her home. that many people obviously unexpected, uninvited started to cause a lot of damage to the outside of the property. we know she was a gracious host to the people that came to the home. she would greet them here in the front hallway and offer them during the campaign what she called standing refreshment,

which basically meant she was very great lakes, and talked to them for a few minutes and offered them a glass of water or lemonade but no chair to sit in because she didn't want them to overstay their welcome. a town hall meeting with republican representative justin amash. he met with the residents of marshall for a little more than an hour. [applause] >> hello, everyone. ben is quite modest. he is my chief of staff. he does not just work for me. if you have questions or concerns in the district, you can always reach ben. he is primarily in our grand rapids office, and you can find

.gov.on my website, amash and we have a satellite office in battle creek, so if there is something you would like to schedule, you can contact our grand rapids office, and we will make sure we will have someone to meet with you as well. my district director is jordan ush. he is not here today, but he is also a valuable resource. you can contact the grand rapids office to reach him. please feel free to do so. for a good cause, he is not here today. he is a great resource, and he can help you with any number of ssues. there are telephone town halls from time to time, so if you would like to get on those phone calls, we've let our staff know. you can let us know before you leave, but please let us know because we do those from time to time. that gives you another way to stay in contact, and what we will do is have a phone call

that goes out to your house maybe 6:00, 7:00 p.m., and you can get on the line and ask questions, and that is a convenient way for people who may have a more difficult time getting out, so if you cannot make it to a town hall and would like to be involved, that is one ay to do it. i also post every vote i take on facebook. i am the only member of congress who does this. we voted more than 2,000 times in congress. you will find an explanation of every single vote of mine on facebook. i personally explain them. it is me doing it. not some staff person, so you can contact me directly that way. you do not have to have a facebook account to see the posts. you only need a facebook account if you want to comment. you don't have to have one to actually see the post. if you are worried about setting up a facebook account, do not worry. you can see everything i have

posted and explanations. so i will talk to you very briefly about the nsa, and that is something i have been very involved with, trying to rein in the out-of-control nature of what is going on right now with our surveillance programs, and that is something that i have spent, as you have probably seen from the news, a lot of time doing over the past couple of months. what the nsa has been doing him as has been declassified now, is ollecting the phone records of every single person in the united states, regardless of whether you are under suspicion of anything, so, in other words, the nsa has a database, and they actually collect every time you all someone. they collect the call that was made.

they tell you which numbers were connected, the duration of the call, and they keep other sorts of what they call metadata on your calls. hey have been doing this for quite some time, but it was recently disclosed, and the problem, of course, is they are doing it without any suspicion. it does not matter if you have a connection to a terrorist or not. they decided that they have the authority to gather up everyone's data, and, of course, this violates the fourth amendment. you cannot simply go around collecting data. the information of all americans in the united states. without any suspicion. so it is something i have been fighting against as a representative for the past couple of months, and a few weeks ago, we had an amendment on the house floor, a defense ppropriation bill. the amash amendment.

205 members of congress stood up and said we do not approve of the nsa collecting phone records of every single person on the united states without any suspicion. unfortunately, 217 members said they were ok with it. i think the tide is turning and that things are shifting. as we hear more and more things in the news about what the nsa and what the government is doing. we have heard other reports, reports about how the nsa might be for example, sharing information with the dea and irs, and according to reports, incidentally collecting information, inadvertently collect your information, and hen use that information to go after people for domestic prosecutions. of course this violates our rule of requiring specific warrants.

you cannot have a system where the intelligence agencies, whether it is nsa or any other agency, collects data without a warrant, and then use that, and says, here you go, and prosecute people, and then according to reports, they are covering their tracks, so defense attorneys do not even know where the data came from. so there are a lot of shocking allegations, revelations out there in reports. one of the things i can tell you is we do not have very much oversight of these programs. there is a secret fisa court that interprets things like the patriot act, and these opinions are not available to members of congress. so, for example, the patriot act is a law related to data gathering, and members of

congress have a particular interpretation of it when we passed it. i voted no on the patriot act, to be clear, when it was up for reauthorization. [applause] those who voted yes, they have a particular interpretation of what the patriot act does, and they have been horrified at what hey found. the patriot act is actually being interpreted by that fisa court in a much more expansive way than what they expected, and we would not have known about that if not for the recent disclosures, because the court opinions that interpret the patriot act are secret, and members of congress, rank-and-file members of congress, do not get access to those court opinions. you will have access provided to the intelligence committees. you will have the white house with access, but members of congress do not have access. of course, i represent people, like everyone else represents people, and when i am asked to

vote on something, i deserve to have the information about the law that everyone else has. they should not keep most of congress in the dark about what they are voting on, and yet, that is what is happening repeatedly, so i have teamed up with a representative on a bipartisan measure. we do not agree on many things, but we do agree on this. we agree that people's rights are being violated here. the constitution is being violated, so we have teamed up on a bill called the liberty act. and what the liberty act will do, and this is a bill that has 50 bipartisan cosponsors, about 50, it is getting more every day, and it is split almost evenly between republicans and democrats, and what the liberty act will do will be to nair tow scope to have patriot act so that the

government can only collect information that actually pertains to a person who is a subject of an investigation. under the patriot act. and it would also provide greater access to members of congress to these fisa court opinions, so we can oversee what is going n. right now we just don't have the access. now, there are people on the intelligence committee and the white house who will tell you that members of congress get briefings on this information, and they do receive briefings, but let me tell you how these briefings work. without revealing any of the classified details. you go to a briefing on, say, the patriot act, and it is basically a one-sided affair, where they tell you what the patriot act is and how it is worded, x, y, and z, and then they say, any questions?

and when they say they have the opportunity to raise questions about the secret program, phone records collection program, even if we have the opportunity, why do we ask about it? we do not know about it. you're not able to ask questions -- it doesn't make sense to think you are going to as questions about secret programs. am i just going to guess at what the program is? it comes to 20 questions. do you have a secret program? no. well, what if i say it this way? do you have the secret program? so you would sit there forever, no. 4trying to figure out what secret programs they have, because they do not volunteer the information to you, so there is actually no real oversight. the fact that we ask questions is not all of that helpful, because you have to go back to the briefing, and go through almost all of the briefings. riefing after briefing after briefing, refining your question

in each briefing so that you can get the answers you need. because if you do not ask it in exactly the right way, you are not going to get the answer you need. and for the white house, which recently said members of congress received a classified document, it was declassified, and it outlined this phone ecords collection program, and there was their own white paper, that it actually indicates that we did not receive that. it says that document in 2009 was shared with the intelligence committees, and both intelligence committees shared with their members, and it talks about the updated document that was released in 2011 and shared with the intelligence committees, and it says they shared it with the members.

but it is slept about what the house did. now, this was in 2011. a large number of republicans in particular were elected in the 2010 elections and just started in 2011, so for that large class of representatives, we never saw that document. and, in fact, the administration white paper hinted that we did not receive the document, so i had my staff actually asked the intelligence committee, and they admitted they did not share the document with us, so we did not receive the information we needed. a lot of my colleagues, particularly the ones who voted yes on the patriot act, or very upset about this, so there is a lot of work to do. this is not a partisan issue. there are people on both sides of the issue, republicans and democrats, but i know the american people are on one side of this issue. they do not want to be spied on, so with that, i went to open up

for questions. yes. >> i do not expect you to answer this in a way that would compromise yourself, but i'm or not as to whether edward snowden, is that the last name? did hisdid it really come out o? >> we never would have gotten to the point where we had votes on the amash amendment if not for that. yes? >> my question is about homeland security.

they came out and said anyone living within 100 miles of the border and a show on the map where all of michigan is included and all of florida, i mean come it goes on and on. no more fourth amendment rights. >> i do not know the particular reference you are making. i have heard the 100 miles from the border issue brought up. is that what you are referring to? >> they can search your computers and cell phones at any time because they have a blanket warrant. what is really strange is western michigan is included in it. is it the border between indiana and -- >> for anyone who is saying that is outrageous or false is insane. >> it is all across. >> yeah. >> in this case,