100 and you end up going after x, and the system would go tilt in the sense that recall russia's reaction after libya, they signed up to a u.n. security council resolution that enabled a nato-led coalition. that nato-led coalition ended up essentially killing or providing close air support to kill assad -- >> gaddafi. >> gaddafi, i mean. your starters are careful that these are geopolitical stakes you're targeting it. i would turn to the latin roots of the word "deterrence," which means to cause terror. if you leave that key shakers shaken that what they value most could be taken away in a

subsequent effort, then i think you have done your job. i personally would not recommend, even though under certain understandings of law, assad is a legitimate military target if he exercises command and control of his military, i would personally not recommend targeting assad himself for a number of reasons, but including the fact that what is the president possibility going to be that we are only going to deter committal weapons use and exacts regime change at the bottom of a bomb? that would be not wise. >> faysal, i am understanding we are on your time now. >> this is a red line line, and probably a real one this time. jordan is in such deep economic trouble and already faces such a

severe refugee crisis. the last i heard, not only is one of the camps the fourth- largest operation area in the country, but they are building another one now modeled along those same lines in the north. the question of what a u.s. strike would do, i suppose that depends on the scale and duration. if it does lead -- or even if it does not -- what would only be worsened by that sort of thing is the problem that i suspect may actually end up becoming permanent or long-term, perhaps even going beyond the military balance in syria. there a return to syria would depend on the stability in southern serious, which frankly is slightly more likely happening in the north, but still highly unlikely now.

that for me would turn jordan into what it is now, which is a state highly dependent on international aid to more or less total bankrupt one that would be a client of the either the gulf states or the united states or whoever was stepping up to fund it, because unfortunately, before the war broke out, they were in pretty poor socioeconomic circumstances and the regime was also facing a crisis between it and its economic base and its political base, which are not the same. i would be seriously worried and slightly alarmed by what is happening in jordan. >> thank you. let me just close by saying that in my view, for what it is worth, i strongly suspect president obama will get the authorization he is seeking, and i strongly suspect that before very long there will be a u.s.

military operation inside syria. i would suggest that perhaps the most interesting thing to keep one's eyes on in the future is whether or not we are seeing the emergence of an actual coherent objective -- a strategy in this administration for syria. because irrespective of the vote in congress, irrespective of what might happen on the ground, as early as next week, the challenge presented by syria to allies and friends of the united states is not going to go away figuratively speaking in the next 20 minutes. this is going to be a gift that will keep on giving for quite a

while. and for the united states operate in a strategic vacuum is not a good idea in many respects. it is precisely the thing that has brought us to this situation we face today. so thank you, all, very much or sharing your time with us, and please join me in thanking our speakers. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] turning now to our live coverage today on the c-span network am a look at the museum where we will be live in 15 minutes, and head of season two of "first ladies: influence and image your coke we will talk about media coverage -- and image." we will talk about media coverage. livell be taking you here to the museum in downtown washington dc starting at about

2:30 eastern time right here on c-span. >> we bring public affairs events from washington directly to you, putting you in the room at congressional hearings, white house events, briefings and conferences, and offering complete gavel-to-gavel coverage of the u.s. house, all as a u.s. -- as a public service of private industry. funded by your local cable and satellite provider. and now you can watch us in high death -- in hd. tomorrow, more on the situation in syria. we will hear from the 41 -- from the former u.s. ambassador to syria on his views on u.s. military intervention and the arab spring. and then a rant -- and then a roundtable. we will be talking about u.s. action in syria and how it might

affect u.s. foreign affairs policies, as well as algae zeros -- al g0 -- al jazeera's washington chief. tomorrow live, newsmakers will congressman xavier becerra. he will talk about immigration, the health care law, and the state of the democratic caucus. in his weekly address president obama talked about his proposal for military strikes in syria. we will hear that and they will be followed by the republican address, senator john barrasso of wyoming. he will talk about health care, jobs, and the economy. >> it was three weeks ago in syria that more than 1000 innocent people, including hundreds of children, were

murdered in the worst attack of the 21st-century. the united states has presented a powerful case to the world the syrian government was responsible for this horrific attack on its own people. this was not only a direct attack on human dignity, it is a serious threat to our national security. there is a reason that american government -- the government for presenting 98% of people banned chemical weapons. because they can fall into the hands of terrorist groups who wish to do us harm. announcedt weekend i that as commander-in-chief i should the united states take military action against the syrian regime. this is not a decision i made lightly. deciding to use military force is the most solemn decision we can make as a nation. world'seader of the oldest constitutional democracy i know our country will be

stronger if we act together and our actions will be more effective. that is why i asked members of congress to vote on authorized the use of force. we are not talking about is an open ended intervention. is not be another iraq or afghanistan. there would be no american boots on the ground. any action we take would be limited, both in time and scope, designed to deter syrian government from gassing its own people and degrade its ability to do so. i know the american people are wary after a decade of war, even if the war in iraq has ended and afghanistan is winding down. that is why we are not putting our troops in the middle of somebody else's war. we are the united states of america, we cannot turn a blind eye to images like the ones we have seen out of syria. respond to this -- it wouldttack

send a horrible signal that there would be no consequences for the use of these weapons. all of which would pose a serious threat to the national security. that is why we cannot ignore chemical attacks like this one. that's when i called on members of congress from both parties to come together and stand up for the kind of world we want to live in. to kind of world we want leave our children and future generations. thank you. doctor i saw the problems with america's health care system every day. there is no question we need is real reform. reform so the people can get the care they needed at lower cost. americans now know that is not what president obama's health care law delivered. what we got is higher taxes and we fellovernment and for lower cost and quality care.

the so-called affordable care act is hurting middle-class families, their wages, their jobs, and health care. less than one month from today america will hit the deadline on one of the most critical and controversial parts of the obama health care law. that is when the government extra -- the government insurance exchange is going to affect. whether they are ready or not, millions of families will have to start arranging to buy their washington mandate health insurance. to haveilies are going real sticker shock when they see their new rates. families against government subsidies. president obama promised that his health care plan would reduce annual insurance premiums by $2500 per family by the end of his first term. that has not happened. the nonpartisan kaiser family foundation the average family premium for people getting insurance at work is nearly $3000 higher than it was when the president took office. because of the many new regulations in the law many

part-time workers are having their hours cut back and their pay reduced. in my home state, several counties to -- several counties school district's looking that at cutting out -- looking at cutting back the hour of part- time workers because of the extra cost of paying health insurance. substitute aegis, bus drivers, coaches, and custodians. state employees have had their work weeks cap@29 hours because of how the law was written. even some of president obama's eta supporters have been warning about the damage this health law is doing to hard-working american taxpayers. andleaders of the teamsters other major labor unions have said that health care law will a destroy the foundation of the 40 hour workweek that is the backbone of the american middle class. though the president promised that if you liked what you had you can keep it, form them and -- for many families it

is just not true. it is more money out-of-pocket. despite the higher costs to consumers and workers, any people will still not get the quality celt care -- quality health care the president has promise. all this talk about coverage does not mean people will actually get better care. america is facing a looming shortage of doctors, nurses, and physician assistants. the health care law provides for thousands of new irs personnel to enforce the law, but it fails to deal with any meaningful way -- deal in any meaningful way the shortage -- meaningful way with the shortage. he made things worse. the health care law has proven to be unpopular, unworkable, and unaffordable. as a result, people are confused, disappointed, and angry.

the law is killing jobs and it is no surprise that employers wanted relief. shouldn't families get the same relief? families will now have to prove to the irs that they have washington approved and government mandated insurance. thatems the only folks support the law other ones that do not have to live under its mandates or made special deals to avoid it. the american people need health care reform. but it must be the kind -- the right kind of reform. this means access to more affordable care and protecting quality care for older americans . my wife is a breast cancer survivor. important is to make sure that we help those with pre-existing conditions. republicans have voted to repeal the health care law and start over. start over with ways that will truly help -- truly help people

by providing the care they need. to president's law fails address the number one problem when it comes to health care, cost. of the outside political arm has promised to spend millions of dollars in advertising to promote the law. they are working with celebrities and sports teams to try to convince healthy young people to buy expensive insurance so that other people can pay less. former president bill clinton was employed by the white house this week in an attempt to explain the way -- explain away the pain middle- class families are feeling. americans want real solutions to bring down the cost of health care. not more press releases and propaganda. end in what the law does just a few weeks we know it is going to start hitting middle- class americans even harder. the american people have a choice, we can embrace the status quo of obama care for four more years or we can repeal

careaw and give people the they need from a doctor they choose at a lower cost. that is what republicans are fighting for. it is time for democrats to join us. thanks for listening. >> at the white house president obama outlined his military proposal for strike on syria -- for a strike on syria. we plan to have that address live here on the c-span network. >> 15 years ago, book tv made its debut on c-span2. money, theseh, and are the three main human concerns. we are all keen students of love, we are fascinated by every aspect of the matter in theory and in practice it may be not quite as much as -- and in practice.

to the topgot nonfiction authors and books every weekend. more than 9000 authors have appeared, including presidents. a i wanted to give the reader chance to understand the process by which i made decisions, the people i listen to when i made is not an and this attempt to rewrite history, it is not an attempt to fashion a legacy, it is an attempt to be a part of the historical narrative. >> also, supreme court justices. >> every single justice on the passion and a love for the constitution and our country. then you know that if you accept that as an operating truth, which it is, you understand that you can disagree.

>> and nobel prize winners. >> for me, what is interesting is the negotiation of a moral decision, to no harm. love somebody. -- of a moral decision. do no harm, love somebody, and respect yourself. all of that is reduced and simple fight notions. spent --sophers have and simplified notions. the philosophers have spent their lives tried to figure out what morality is, what responsibility is. >> revisited book fairs and festivals from around the country. >> book tv is live out the annual l.a. times festival of books on the campus of ucla in west los angeles. rocks there is our signature programming, in depth each month. >> if you say to a child almost anywhere in this country that school is -- schools all over the country, once upon a time the child will stop and listen. you better have more say after that. that phrase is still magical.

>> every week, afterwards. -- after words. me to beher wanted born in prague, where her mother was. i was born in prock and then we moved back. 1938ther was recalled in and he was in czechoslovakia when they marched in 1939. the only national television network devoted exclusively to nonfiction books. we are marking 15 years on book tv on c-span2. here at the live museum in downtown washington dc , ahead of season two of our series, "first ladies: influence and image." we will talk about the media

coverage of first ladies brought the years. we will hear from richard norton smith as well as abc news commentator, cokie roberts, and chris's thompson -- and chris at thompson's from the washington post. [inaudible]

>> we are live today at the museum in downtown washington dc. we just saw a look at the audience gathered here for a conversation about the media's coverage of first ladies throughout the years. [applause]

[inaudible]

>> good afternoon, welcome to the museums studio. i am your host, john maine art, program manager here at the museum. today we examined the influence and image of america's first ladies. margaret truman once said the first lady has have the second hardest job in america. lady bird johnson said are slated to the only ones who can tell the president to shut up and not get fired. and jacqueline kennedy once said that the one thing she does not what he called his first lady, it sounds like a saddle horse. certainly three different viewpoint of a position in our government that we perhaps do not know enough about. this monday, c-span will help educate us as it resumes its for that resumes its series, "first ladies, -- resumes its series, "first ladies: influence and image." it resumes with edith roosevelt, leading up to the series finale with michelle obama in february.

the series is produced in conjunction with the white house historical association, a charitable nonprofit institution whose purpose is to enhance the understanding, appreciation, and understanding -- understanding and appreciation of the white house. to my left, is a familiar face. he is a political commentator for abc news and npr. she also writes a weekly syndicated column in newspapers around the country with her husband and my own professor, steven roberts. she is the author of two best- selling books, the founding mothers, and the ladies of liberty. is richard norton smith, a scholar in residence at george mason university. he is one of the preeminent formerans and is the head of six national moderates -- six national libraries. related toerything

the presidency. he has published numerous books, anduding "an uncommon man," "patriarch: george washington and the new american nation." thompson is a historian who covers michelle obama. she writes about a broad range of not so famous people who do not require secret service protection. she began at the washington post in 2001 and reported from the newsrooms bureau and traveled the country to interview voters during the 2008 president of campaign. please welcome our distinguished panel. [applause] >> i do want to run a quick preview, a trailer of the series. [video clip]

>> if we turn away from the needs of others, we align ourselves with those forces that are bringing about this suffering. >> obesity in this country is nothing short of a public health crisis. [indiscernible] >> there are so much influence in this opportunity. it would be a shame to waste it. >> i think they serve as a window on the path to what was going on with american women. >> she becomes the chief's confidant. only personay, the they can trust. >> many were writers, journalists, they wrote books. >> they are, in many cases, more

interesting as human beings than their husbands. if only because they are not defined and limited by political ambition. >> edith roosevelt is the unsung hero. when you go to the white house today it is really edith roosevelt's white house. there was too much looking down, and i think it was a little too fast, not enough change of pace. >> yes, ma'am. lux i think, in every case, the first lady is really -- has really done would ever fit her personality and her interest. >> she later wrote in her memoir that she said, "i myself never made any decisions. i only decided what was important and when to present it to my husband." you stop and think about how much power that is, it is a lot of power.

battle against cancer -- part of the battle against cancer is to fight the accompanies the disease. >> she transformed the way we and madehese bugaboos it possible for countless people to survive and flourish, as a result. i don't know how many presidents have realistically had that kind of impact on the way we live our lives. >> just walking around the white house grounds i am constantly reminded of all of the people who lived there before, and particularly all of the women. andirst ladies, influence image, a c-span original series reduced income portion -- produced in cooperation with the white house historical association.

modern era with edith roosevelt to michelle obama. >> if you are tweeting this program from home or in the theence, you can use hashtag -- we will start with cokie. we studied residence in schools. when it comes to first ladies, important --n wise not so much. why is it so important that we study them? >> there is the smith -- is this first ladies started being powerful during eleanor roosevelt and then they went back into the closets and popped back up with hillary clinton. that is just crazy. martha washington was very much understood -- martha washington very much understood that she was creating this unique role

and she was politically very savvy. york, thed in new temporary capital, knowing it would be more well received for a republican court. the job andstablish , "they,ally wrote define its lady of the land but i feel like a prisoner." congress forhe veterans pensions because she had been at camp for the eight long years of the revolutionary war with those soldiers. they came to her concert lee after the war. to her in there -- constantly after the war could she was in there with her cause. have been. some more effectively than others am a some more graciously than others. they have bn very powerful

forces. and i think we are fascinated by them because i'm as lady johnson said, they cannot be fired -- because, as lady johnson said, they cannot be fired. >> richard? looking fors are primary sources. there is no more primary source than the first lady. she is an absolutely unique position. mrs. 40s to talk about her success -- mrs. ford is to talk about her success in getting a woman into the cabinet. she almost got a woman onto the supreme court. we never would have known about that if she had not thought to tell us. imagine american history and go back to the early stages before , "modernor roosevelt era." the adams presidency was

unsuccessful enough. it arguably would have been more successful that he paid more attention to abigail. likes or not. -- >> or not. [laughter] she was a good political adviser before he was president that she cannot take the criticism. -- but she could not take the criticism. supporter ofe alien -- she talked about the batteries of use and schola ity.see -- scholilt nothing will have an effect in less commerce passes this bill. -- unless congress passes this bill. people,ttitude toward she soft and john considerably. >> it took some doing.

>> she goes all over her papers, the speeches, but the interesting thing is -- and it is the single biggest difference, is that these relative handful of women in the 19th century who went out of their way not to conceal their interest in a political partnership were inevitably the targets of severe criticism and mocked the president. >> i know we want to hear from you. i think we can make a real case that the country would have followed apart without dolly madison. -- fallen apart without dolly madison. the kind of partisanship underlined by regionalism was as vicious then.

the country was way too young and way too fragile. she did it for decades because she was the first lady. she really had that ability to make people sit down and have a drink together and behave. >> we will talk about michelle obama's influence later in the conversation. when you were assigned michelle obama am a how did you approach it and how did you study up on a t e -- on at? -- on it? >> she took her first solo to her in africa and visited the botswana. i read stories about laura bush and her trip there and hillary clinton and her trip there. it was interesting how different the coverage is of these first

ladies, particularly hillary clinton, who at the time, there was already this buzz that she was running and what that meant. have the coverage of the first lady bringing herself and put a stop -- and put a spotlight on something but try to understand her political ambitions as well. michelle obama was not traveling with at kind of import. her message has, in many ways, influenced pop culture and not politics. i tend to look at her from that lens. think she draws upon some historic first ladies in choosing to enter the position from that angle. we often see her on tv talk shows, sometimes scripted television, taking her messages about childhood obesity and helping military families there, which, as we know, nancy reagan and to that conversation on different strokes.

in many ways there is nothing new under the sun. at technology and media changes there are other avenues for first ladies to -- michelle obama likes to call herself "living in a harsh spotlight," but whatever spotlight she stands in front of she can sign a light on -- shine a light on. >> the subtitle is "influence and image." how has influence evolved from the days of martha washington? has it been a steady evolution? >> different marriages are different. it is whether the man listens to not.nd not in -- to her or you have different personalities. obviously all of that comes into play. you certainly have moments where polk was a good

example, she was basically cabinet secretary. thatld make the argument we did not have a strong first lady in the years leading up to the civil war and it made a difference in the fact that people were not able to come together. obviously there was a lot going on. forceere was none of that , not as there is today. not that michelle obama is not doing a good job as first lady. thathe city is so partisan it is very difficult. >> she hasn't chosen to be a part of washington in that way. >> you can make the argument --t harriet lane, who was did a far superior job of bringing people together than her uncle did. harriet was a great hostess. she entertained the prince of wales for the first time he came here. she was the one success. >> that people like her.

that still she was the girl nice. she did not have the clout a first lady did. thing is other "influence" is a word that is redefined. of eleanor roosevelt and automatically the word "influence" comes to mind and a public sense. you don't automatically associate bets truman -- associate bets truman -- bess t ruman -- define public influence and private influence? the fact that president truman discussed the decision to drop the bomb with his wife and very few other people is a unique kind of influence, but it may escape the public eye. , laura when it is public bush's advocacy for overthrowing the regime of burma, it is so people put the

first ladies in a box. she complained that people would say to her when she became first lady, are you going to be hillary clinton or barbara bush? she said, why don't i just be laura bush? she got, through a relative, very interested in what was going on in burma. lady tothe only first go to the press room at the white house and take the microphone herself and take it to call for the overthrow of the burmese regime. that is kind of the public image of her. she did it on her way to her daughter's wedding. i asked her m1 point why -- at -- i asked her at one point, why . working on that issue for years and had been writing op-ed for the wall

street journal and had managed the conduct -- managed to convince the you into convene conferences on it. she finally convinced her husband to call for sanctions. that is where the influence really comes in. he is the person with the power. >> that's interesting, because we do put first ladies in a box in so many ways and expect them to sort of fit into that dynamic. >> she also belongs to this unique kind of chandra, if you will, of first ladies -- kind of john ruck, if you will, of first ladies. will,nd of genre, if you of first ladies. in many ways her role was completely redefined in ways she could not imagine. >> she talks about that. on september 11 mrs. bush was on her way to the capital to testify before the senate education and labor committee. that, shenks about

was talking about children and education when the first plane hit. she was in senator kennedy's office. and then the second plane hit and then she worked the phones to find her children and her mother and her husband. and then she and senator kennedy went out before the cabinet to try to calm the american people together. and he says, you take the measure of a person on a day had thought but she her interests were going to be literacy and books and breast cancer, where she had played a role in texas, and all that. and it just changed dramatically where the women of afghanistan became a huge issue, the international concerns, all of that became a much bigger issue. >> a leader knows us any better -- knows us better than anyone

else in the room. the pearl harbor happened, country does not hear from its president until the next day when fdr delivers his famous, "data will live in infamy" speech before congress. -- the voicereason of reassurance comes from mrs. roosevelt at that critical moment. >> you mentioned laura bush and literacy, although that did change course. we have michelle obama with healthy eating. it seems the first lady is a champion of a cause. where can we trace the cops -- trace the origin of first ladies being the champions of a specific cause? >> hoover was very influential with her scouts. she was head of the girl scouts. it was lady bird johnson who now.y all of them quote she said "i have a podium, and i'm going to use it."

then hasst lady since quoted lady bird johnson to me, saying exactly the same thing. >> you literally can go back into the 19th century and find, to everyone's surprise, first ladies who had causes. the first i can find is dolly madison, who donated $20 and a cal to a local orphanage. >>@orphanage started after the british invaded washington and he started it for girls -- that orphanage started after the british invaded washington and it was started for girls. it started a pattern that was very important. much grewthat i very up here in washington as a was that child political women got together with the local women to really provide social services. that really started with dolly madison.

>> we are jumping centuries here , back to michelle obama. talk to us about media coverage of the first ladies. has hurt team effectively shape her brand? were covereds who and watched her in the 2007, 2008 campaign cycle, there were moments when she did not have a notd footing and she was necessarily a beloved political figure and now she is one of the most popular political figures and the democratic party. she has some definite faux pas pas's, andnite faux it was a harsh image. then we see as soon as her husband was elected she comes to washington and she declares right away that she is mom in chief. this was a woman who graduated from princeton and harvard, has been vice president of a

hospital in chicago, and so immediately we have a signal there as to how she wants to introduce herself to us. months where she was figuring out what causes she is going to take on, what they would look like programmatically , so she spent some time traveling through washington and saying thank you to federal workers and introducing herself. and then she plants the garden and harkins back to the traditions that we have been talking about. begins to develop this healthy eating initiative. we see, almost right away, that she does much of that through pop culture. early on they did have a few roundtables with reporters who covered her. that rarely happens now. we are often hearing from her directly when she is on late night with jimmy kimmel or communicatesn she

with her followers. she is now on not just twitter erest and instagram. there are ways that she gets her message out, most often through women's magazines, as well. we kind of see that softer side of michelle obama really being anded through those media, not the political media. >> since we are here, staying on media, how has media coverage changed on coverage of the first lady? television changed everything but give us some thoughts. >> before television, elavil and roosevelt -- eleanor roosevelt changed everything pitch he had press conferences and insisted that the male journalists be in their, which was a huge step forward. .> they were limited to women

>> absolutely, as well they should have been. [laughter] the others were pretty limited to men. that really started the change in the way first ladies were covered. now, this 24 hour thing, i have had the great privilege in early and of going to tanzania interviewing michelle obama and laura bush together. a great conversation. >> it was wonderful, it was a great history making summit. when the bushes realized they would be on the same continent at the same time, they invited mrs. obama. mrs. obama did a very gracious thing.

she could have hijacked it, but she said i want to, and have a conversation with laura bush. i want to come and have a conversation with laura bush. at first it was delightful, but secondly it was educational for the women who were there. to have these two women, rival parties, sitting and being very friendly with each other, was something that was a very wonderful example to present. their conversations about media -- it wasas basically nicer because they are well trained. but it was basically what abigail thought. say itelle obama did didn't still feel a little bit like prison. >> that's a good example of why media coverage is so unfair. martha quoting

washington. saidd, martha washington "prisoner," and i asked them if they feel that way. they laughed at it. it comes with the job. the somewhat hostile to the -- michel said the white houses a prison. it was very unfair. >> we are going to get questions in just a moment. we have two people with microphones that will come right to you. up something.g we opened a jfk exhibit here in april and we all have a chance to see it -- and we hope you all have a chance to see it. one exhibit is creating a camelot section, featuring kennedys,aken by the me stuing pictures by jackie

kennedy. give us a sense of what jackie kennedy's poise, following the assassination of her husband -- we have to remember she was 34 years old? >> so young. islots of people think she was the youngest first lady in american history. actually, that was frances cleveland, who was 22 when she "uc ed the man she called ncle cleve." we won't go there. >> we're on c-span. [laughter] >> mrs. kennedy is an absolutely unique figure. she doesn't fit any obvious category. she wasn't an activist in the sense of lady johnson or political activist in -- or political activist. she did not have a lot of time

for the press and yet she had become an iconic figure long became a legend that eek >> something like 60 million americans tuned in to her tour of the white house. just an extraordinary bonding water cooler event. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> of course, it brought indelible images of first ladies that are still with us. the idea was, she had a sense of theater. she had decreed that the president's funeral in effect be based upon the services for abraham lincoln, 100 years earlier. so it isn't as if this was all together unscripted. of course, to the extent that

camelot was constructed, it was very modest. -- it was very much her doing. >> listening to these tape recordings, unfortunately he is really credited, not her. but she still reveals herself in ways that are very interesting. now, again, it is a moment in time. it is march of 1964. so her husband has just died. she is a young widow. that has to be taken into account, as you listen to her. it is very clear that she knew everything that was going on. meaning, he would bring her c.i.a. briefing books. she certainly knew who all the players were and how he related to them and all of that. >> she was rather astute. >> yes. >> about almost everyone. >> except my parents. [laughter] >> naturally.

stevenson.er adalade i always thought they were symatico. when i read that, i thought to myself, you know, this is fascinating, but i would love to have heard her tape 20 years later and seen maybe how she might have assessed some of those big issues. >> we have some hands raised. if the young lady will bring the mic up. >> you have persuaded me that the apresidents, like all husbands i know, married up. >> and doug, you certainly did. the public record we needed that? [laughter] >> live on c-span. >> so i'd like to know, tell us about some of their goofs.

tell us about things the first ladies got involved in that didn't go so well in terms of politics or policy. jackie kennedy, the brains hinald the bay of pigs? >> no. [laughter] >> i think you can make a case that hillary clinton and health care was a big goof. was it her goof or the president's goof? but putting the first lady, a person who is, as you said, unfireable and unlicted, into that kind of position dealing with the major issue at the time was not, in my view, a wise thing to do. it certainly didn't end well for either her or him. >> i would say edith wilson with perhaps the best of intentions produced arguably the worst of results. her new big bog if i is coming out next week.

i can't wait to get my hands on it. but it is said that in fact the resident was willing to resign following his massive stroke in 1919, but the vice president didn't want him to. what i think we all know is that mrs. wilson certainly didn't push that course of action. and in many ways, his historical reputation, and arguably today, would be considerably better had he actually left the office voluntarily. what exactly her role was is debated, but you -- but she decided who got to see him and when, and if she wasn't the first female president, she was certainly the first female chief of staff. >> i think she was volunteering at a food shelter or homeless

shoes and wore tennis hat cost like 500. dollars. and there was that trip that she took with her daughter to spain and there became questions about that and how it was financed and if it was appropriate at the time. >> i think we have another question. how did wives of the vice president who did transition into the white house after an assassination or something deal with that? >> that's a good question. >> that's a great question. >> yes. >> i think the first lady of the 21st century who we need most to know about that we probably don't is grace coolidge. she would have been just delightful. if you had to be stuck on a desert island, i would much

rather have been there with grace than cal, even if i wouldn't have had to make as much conversation. she was a professional. she taught students at the clark school for the deaf. in fact, one way of -- what was t? "she taught the deaf to hear, she might yet teach the dumb to speak" referring to calvin. [laughter] >> we know it was a troubled marriage that she more than once considered divorce. that the toughest times of the marriage were during the white house years following the loss of their son, calvin junior. there is something about that, it seems to me, that universalizes the experience. people living in rarefied settings yet they are dealing with the same prestige, not always successfully, that you nd i would take for granted.

>> and unfortunately in the white house where there is as much cynicism as there is. >> lady bird johnson coming in after the assassination of the president could not have been a more effective first lady. she new the city, she knew the players, and she certainly had the ability toll soften him. , you ing to those tapes saw the one where she criticizes -- the way the conversations go, she will start out with, , "you did this so well," and "i really think that you handled that question very nicely." and then she will just start in. you can hear him getting farther and farther from the point as she's talking to him. she was a very good adviceor.

but she was also a wonderful diplomat in the city and the world. >> he -- richard norton smith, you made a comment at the beginning about how the white house of today is really the white house that president wilson left us. i am curious if you can give us an advance preview of what we might see on monday night in that regard? >> >> the roosevelts were a ram uous family. mbunct it is said she had six children of which thee dore was the youngest. it was edith who said, "this is a home." until now it had often been an office building. it has been many things. it has been a press head quarters, a war room, and among other things, a home for the

president's family. the first mrs. roosevelt had her priorities very set. she brought in the white, and out went the victorian palms, nd the same brass bric-a-brac, and she -- the house was redesigned, reimagined. george washington could walk into the house today and feel at home. it went back to an early kind of federal style, classic lines. so my point is, physically, for all the people like mrs. kennedy, for example, who have had a huge imprint on the house, physically the house you go to today is very much edith roosevelt's creation. it cost $475,000. >> we may be on the verge of our first woman president. how will the role -- and you might be covering that

personally -- but how will the roles change if indeed the man takes that role? >> oh, i think there will be endless coverage and so much interest. any time you have a historic person, which is part of what's driven so much interest in michelle obama in the role, is, you know, everything is new. how will he approach the duties of the first spouse? what will we call him? i can see the press having lots of fun with the lists of names and there are a million things you can do. but sort of watching the roles change. and michelle obama talks about part of the role being that which belongs to the american people and the other part is what each first lady brings to it. so to have the first male in the role looking at the hybrid of those two things and figuring out how it works in modern america and what it says about us.

because they are often responding to, you know, the public's sense of what's acceptable in that moment, right? >> our own roles of men and women in a marriage. we all focus on that background. >> you have a great point on how he role of men and women are pushed to the background. i thought it was very insightful. >> thank you. >> what roles of first ladies pushed to the background because they were women? >> they were all in the background, in that sense. >> you have talked about they have done great things that you have acknowledged. what are some of the things you know got suppressed because of their being first women instead f president? >> we can address the first

ladies who are undeservedly obscured. i would think pat nixon, for example. i remember talking to someone very close to her. i said, was she shy? >> they said, no, she wasn't shy. she was self-efacing. and there is a difference between the two. it was pat nixon who started tours for blind visitors to the white house. it was pat nixon, when there was a terrible earthquake in peru and she wanted to do something, she just, you know, went to the president, and they loaded up a plane, and she took it, and didn't have a lot of press following her. it wasn't all about pictures of her, which again goes back to her self-efacing nature. at the same time, how can you not feel sympathy for what this woman endured? she had a rough life from the very beginning. politics was not her chosen

field. she went through the agony of the checkered speech where she was a prop in her republican cloth coat, and then, of course, watergate. that's a pretty gramic story, yet i would say we know very little about the real pat nixon. >> there would have been props behind them. when hamilton had his affair, he was a skylar, she saved his political career. that will particular role makes me a little crazy, the smiling abused spouse, but that role has been around for a very long time. >> i think we have had several

first ladies who are lawyers and have had a great welfare of experience in the private sector and acting with michelle obama and some of the different people i have interviewed there is a sense there is more she could be doing. of course she has to consider, of course, it is not an elected role, but you are bringing women of substance in, and should they just be hostesses? >> exactly. >> that raises to me one of the really fascinating conundrums about the way this role has evolved particularly in the last generation or so. you have a swigs where first ladies invariably have higher mores than their husbands. they often sell more books than their husbands. > they are better books.

[applause] [laughter] >> because they are honest. >> there is a connection, clearly, between those two factors. they become unique political assets, and yet part of their unique appeal is that they are not seen as purely partisan figures. tell me about the tight rope that a modern first lady -- >> that is what was reelly -- really interesting in this conversation about mrs. obama. in the end, i said to mrs. obama, you wanted to have this conference. why did you want to do that? and she reached out to mrs. bush and said, i like this woman. she has been so helpful to me and her staff has been so helpful to me, and, you know, this is something that we can do together. it, again, was such a wonderful example to the women there. i sort of wanted to bottle it

and bring it to capitol hill. they were able to bridge that divide. and then those pictures you just saw at the beginning of barbara bush and hillary clinton walking together. i think it remains easier for the women. >> but the former presidents -- >> oh, yeah, they all love each other. >> is it significant that we have to be an ex to engage in -- >> it is interesting that the first lady was able to do that in that context. >> i'm curious. i'm sure you've been asked this before, but i wasn't there for the answer. is there a particular first lady with whom you feel close with? >> i am never good at questions

like this. everybody is so different from ach other. >> as a historian. they all are in an extraordinarily difficult and commanding -- whatever period of history we're talking about, different media demands. you know, you are unpaid, are you unelected. are you subject to criticism, much of it irrationale, for what you wear, how your children conduct themselves, for what cause you embrace or fail to embrace. so i think every single one of these women deserves not just our sympathy but our admiration for their willingness to take it on. >> i have a little trouble admiring mary lincoln. >> really? >> that's a tough one. >> why? > well, because she was crazy. >> some are more empathetic than

you are. >> somebody needs to be. >> but it is true, she has lousy press. the thing with the lincoln library, i have directed this, and the single question i most often get is, was mary lincoln really crazy. >> well, coming at someone with a knife -- [laughter] >> this is a woman -- >> one last conversation. as we know more about the first ladies or respective first ladies and they are more educated and we now know what they are influence is, do you think they have a greater influence on how america votes? >> how america? >> votes, for president. do you think that is taken into consideration who the first lady is going to be? >> no, i don't.

but i do think -- all presidential cab nates have surrogates, and the first lady or the perspective first lady is the surrogate in chief. and what she does is validate him in a very -- and some day i ope it is the other way around the other way around some day -- she relates particularly to women voters, and she's saying, i like the guy. that does give him a surrogacy more valuable than any other. and george bush started all his campaign speeches in 2000 with reference to laura bush. he knew she was just likable. and particularly, he was saying, she likes me.

and that's what they are offering, to some degree. this worthy woman says that i'm a good guy. so the voters kind of respond to that on his behalf. we don't even have any evidence that anybody votes for vice president, much less first lady. >> you often here the term "humanize" that the first lady helps to human nice -- humanize the president. and they also raise a lot of money. >> i would agree with both of them. i would also not want to overlook that in ways less obvious than that, they may actually wield more historical influence. go back to "influence and image" we still don't know how -- the full story of how important

nancy reagan was behind-the-scenes in terms of personnel and policies. but she was clearly hugely influential. and i would argue, based on what we do know, most of the time for he better. >> i think the question was, did the voters vote for first ladies. >> and i don't think people in 984 thought mrs. montel mrs. reagan. historians get to vote in ways that voters don't. and i think historians may ascribe a different kind of significance to the many first lady than the average voter. "first ladies,-- influence & image." monday nights. thank you for joining us. [applause]

>> if you missed any of this conversation, the kickoff for season two of "first ladies, influence & image" will be shown tonight at 7:00 eastern right

ere on c-span. >> trying to maintain their family time and protect their privacy, edith roosevelt purchased a home called pine knot. >> she wanted to get out here as often as neighborhooded, but far enough away there was wilderness. this was a family place. in a sense it was unique for the roosevelts. at their permanent home they had constantly a hub of activity. this was the one place it was family private time, and the roosevelts made it clear, they did not want anyone but family here. >> meet edith roosevelt as we begin season 2 of our series "first ladies, influence & image" monday night live at 9:00

eastern on c-span and c-span 3, also on c-span radio and c-span.org. >> next a conversation with supreme court justice stephen breyer. he talks about individual constitutional rights and how the supreme court differs from state courts. this was from the aspen institute. the conversation is about an our. [applause] >> i would like to thank all of you for being here, with a special thanks to alan and stephen for your generosity today. this has already become a signature event. we thank you. ms. chertoff has expanded our programs and brought it wonderful new directions. today we have two luminaries of american law here. the fact that we have justice marshall here is an important

reminder of something many of us forget, even those of us who are lawyers, and that is we have something unique in this country in our constitutional system. we have state constitutional courts, and the work the judges on the highest court that the states play in interpreting state constitutions, and in many cases the state constitutional justices have taken individual rights further than the federal supreme court has. it is a unique aspect. some people call it dual federalism. we will talk about the interplay of state and federal constitutions. i would like to mention one thing because justice marshall is here, and it is to point out that justice marshall really was part of a team of two in terms of protecting the individual rights in the united states.

and when she retired from the supreme judicial court of massachusetts in 2010, she retired in part to be able to spend more time with her husband. as she put it at the time, to be able to share their last seasons together. we, justice marshall, want to share our condolences in the loss of your husband a few months ago, who was also an enormous loss for the country. anthony lewis, tony lewis, was a giant among a champion of individual rights, a champion of the bill of rights. he not only won two pulitzers, he wrote "gideon's trumpet," and significantly, more than any other reporter in the united states, to explain the role of

the courts, and especially, the supreme court, in a very sophisticated way. i think it is fair also to say that that kind of explanation, the role of the court, continues now par excellence by justice breyer, because it is not part of the job description of a supreme court justice to go out in the public and explain the role of the court, explained opinions, and justice breyer is one of the few retired justices -- sandra day o'connor is another -- who go to great lengths to provide this important set of functions. we appreciate that and we appreciate enormously the contributions of tony lewis. as you heard in the introduction, and i will start ith you, justice marshall, the goodrich case -- you wrote over 300 opinions, many of them were important, and i would like to go back to 2003 and when you wrote that opinion for the court, finding a right in the

massachusetts constitution for gay marriage. you were criticized pretty widely and strongly from all quarters, from the massachusetts legislature, from the governor's office -- mitt romney at the time -- and all the way up to the supreme court. and i wonder if you were prepared for that and whether you thought at all about what the reaction would be or whether you just looked at the massachusetts constitution and felt you had no choice but to come to the conclusion that you did? >> i probably was not as prepared as i might have been, not so much for the massachusetts reaction. i had come into a lot of criticism, and as a firm

believer in the first amendment, i think judges can be criticized as long with it everybody else. we are different in that regard from most other countries. what i had not anticipated, at all, was the reaction from around the country and around the world. and although i was criticized, the opinion was also praised, and i had not anticipated that. you might say that was my naïveté. i don't think it was. state court judges -- we know our opinions are followed in other fora, but we do not think we are going to make international and national news on the scale that was the response to the decision. as i say, i grew up in south africa, and for a very tiny village, and it is a little odd when the president of the united states points his finger at you and says "you are a judicial activist."