tv Q A CSPAN September 22, 2013 8:00pm-9:01pm EDT
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the agriculture secretary general. then, the washington navy yard memorial service, for victims of the families of monday's shooting. >> this week on queuing day, phyllis fong. ofir of the council inspectors general on integrity and efficiency. >> phyllis fong, what is inspector general? >> inspector general is a public official who is responsible to review the operations of that agency to make sure that programs are
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delivered effectively and with integrity. >> what does your background have to do? that igs havesays to have expertise in a number of perfections. auditing and public management. above all, being people of integrity. >> how long have you been in inspector general? of 2002.december >> how would you describe the job it agriculture? my job is to oversee the operations of all of the usda programs to make sure that they are being delivered as effectively as possible. dayt that means, on a day-to- basis, is that we, in the ig office, need to conduct audits to make sure the programs are running affectively.
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that improper payments are not going out the door. and, we conduct investigations when there are allegations of wrongdoing in a program, either by a department employee or someone receiving benefits. it is our jurisdiction to one investigations on those activities. >> how long have you been there? >> since 2002. >> who appointed you? >> president george bush. >> what kind of autonomy do you have? statute, are officials who must operate independently. within ourted agencies and departments, but we -- weder the supervision have professional independence to exercise our judgment as to
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what issues need to be looked that and how we will go about look at them -- looking at them and what we report to congress and the secretary. >> how many people work for you? >> we have 130 employees. >> where are they located? >> around the country. we have a presence in washington, d.c. presence in the major federal cities around the country. chicago, atlanta, san francisco, texas, and kansas city. >> what is the most obvious thing that you do that the public might not know about? in terms of what we do, my sense is that the public has a good grasp of what it means to do an investigation of wrongdoing. people seem to understand that
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if you have somebody who is ,ccused of engaging in fraud the ig has the jurisdiction to pursue that. ist the public may not know the kind of audits that we do through our department programs. our responsibility of going and looking at how the departments are delivering their programs. example, provide farm subsidy payments to farmers. the department is not doing that as effectively as he can. how do you deliver those programs and can you do them better? >> the president appointed you. the senate had to approve you? >> that is correct. the senate confirmed a. -- me.
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>> how many inspectors general's are there? >> currently there are 73. five our legislative branch and are appointed by the agency head. ig,he executive branch about half are appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate and the other half are appointed by agency heads. >> who did answer to? you answer to? >> we have a dual responsibility to her agency head and congress. >> what if you do something that your agency head does not like? >> as you can imagine, the inspector general reports often contain recommendations to improve agency operations. sometimes agency heads may not agree with recommendations.
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program officials may say that they do not agree the premise or do not agree with the proposed action. certainly, there is lots of room for reasonable minds to disagree as to what the best way forward is. actinspector general revised that there is a way to have those discussions about disagreements. to elevate these discussions to the head of the agency and resolve them if they can be resolved. the agency had decided another path forward is better, on burris has oversight of that process and to ask further questions. -- congress has oversight of that process and can ask further questions. in terms of removal of igs,
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the act provides that the person who appoints the ig has the authority to remove the ig. indicates a presidentially appointed igs, i am one of those, the president has the authority to remove me. mustder to do that, he give congress a days notice prior to removal. he must give congress the opportunity to be where the action and engage in dialogue they feel is appropriate. >> a couple of years ago, neil borofsky was the special inspector general for tarp and was here. here's what he had to say about the process. want to put it in perspective from your experience. the doj helped use their office to lead the investigation
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into the politically motivated firings of u.s. attorneys that is an example of an effective ig. often you cannot hear about them or know about them. i was asked a question about why we did not have an ig doing what we were doing. it turned out, we did. they are so not out there and so not aggressive. i was told, point-blank, that someone wished they could do what i was doing but was afraid about losing their job. that is one of the problems. the fear of being fired. people want to be aggressive in carrying out their duties. >> what do you think? let me offer a number of comments on that tape. when an ig agrees to take the job of inspector general, we know that, and the case of
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presidentially appointed inspector generals, we serve at the pleasure of the present and that is what the act provides. all must understand that the pleasure of the president means exactly that will stop we believe that, if we do a good job, we should be able to continue serving. based on my knowledge of my colleagues and my , isrience in the community that inspectors general and people who take the jobs and , they the responsibility are committed to public service and making agencies work well. they would not take these jobs if they did not think they could make a difference. >> go back to your situation. you are appointed i george bush will stop did you have any connection to george bush? >> not at all. >> where did you come from?
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was serving as the inspector general of the small business administration. i was appointed by president clinton to that position. i had been in that job for three years. ? >>ow did you get that job prior to that appointment, i had ign an executive in the office. i worked my way up the ranks. i got to know how an ig office works all stop -- works. as au know, my training is lawyer. >> where did you get your law degree? >> vanderbilt university. >> how did you get from asian studies to law? in asian studies as an undergrad at pomona college in california all stop -- california.
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i found that to be an interesting course of study. i have nature medicine interest tremendous interest in global affairs and i attribute that to my growing up in honolulu. it is a melting pot. has a diverse population of people from all over the world. and so, that was a natural development for me. >> where did your family come from russian mark >> from china -- from? >> from china. they came from china to all right -- hawaii. on my father side, they came to work in the pineapple and sugarcane fields will stop -- fields. my ancestors were shopkeepers.
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>> what did your father do? >> he is a physician by training and profession. >> mom? >> homemaker. >> you have two sisters who are lawyers and a brother who is a doctor. >> we have a family of four kids, as you mentioned. ,t is interesting about brother who is a practicing rheumatologist in san francisco and went into medicine following my father's footsteps. all of us daughters went to law school. dadike to joke that invested in our law degrees so that he would have adequate representation if you need it. is aungest sister lawyer for the federal
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government and my youngest sister is in private practice. comeere does this impetus from? >> i have to attribute it to my parents. one, they have been encouraging of us. they want us to pursue art education as far is it would take us and develop a professional approach to life. value that, ina addition to being educated, we have a responsibility to help people and get engaged. in our ownwe can spheres to make society move forward and help individuals. >> your husband work for the government? >> the day for a full career and recently retired. >> he was with the irs.
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>> yes. >> was he a lawyer? >> yes. >> we don't see government service very often. what is the motivation for being in government service? to the cynicsy who say that government servants have great lives? great health care, great retirement, great benefits. questione asking me a about my choice to go into government service as a career. that, from the beginning of my career, i have been in government service and have always felt very strongly -- thee public practice private practice of law is a profession and i got a taste of it in law school. i clerked and had a chance to interact with clients and see
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what private practice is about. i had a chance to do internships with the city and state government of honolulu to see how that profession work. worked. i found it more satisfying to find myself working on issues of where i can bring my talents to bear on issues that really affect the well- being of many people. > go back to the agricultural department>, you said you had 500 people working for you. how many people work at the agricultural department. >> about $100,000 -- 100,000 people. >> how much does the agricultural department spent?
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and billion dollars -- $100 billion. >> you worry about the waste, fraud, and abuse any snap program. how big a deal is it? is the biggest program in agriculture, we have been on our radar screen on a daily basis. igs plan ourow work, we have, as i mentioned, a responsibility to a lot of the grants and investigating allegations of wrongdoing. as you can imagine, a program as big is this, which touches one out of seven americans, there is always a potential for people to andto take advantage of it engage in fraud.
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try to take things they are not entitled to. on a regular basis, we have allegations of fraud on all levels of that program. on a daily basis, we are addressing those allegations. in terms of our oversight responsibilities, we plan our audit work. if you talk to any ig, they will play this, the key to how we plan our work is to take a look at the portfolio of our agency , where is the say greatest risk to the taxpayer dollar? if the program comprises 75% of an agency portfolio, you have to take a look at that to make sure the dollars go where they should. have a press release from the department of agriculture from 2012. they say that either culture
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under kevin announced new measures for the supplemental nutrition assistance program as part of the obama administration campaign to cut waste. what is the campaign to cut waste? are you a part of that? >> as we discussed, one observation i would make is that inspectors general do not have a monopoly on making sure that government programs work as effectively as they can. the first fighter defense is the agency official who was responsible. undersecretaryhe is very knowledgeable and experienced in this area of nutritional programs. he sees, as well as we do, the potential for fraud and the need to make the program run as
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effectively as possible. has, as you note, will about a number of initiatives, some of which are in response to clients , to addressis own vulnerabilities in the program. worklcome that and we closely with his staff to make -- he is his partners partnered on these initiatives. at we arenerabilities identifying and ways that program people can move forward to address these issues. >> to go back to what neil is theirsaid, independence in igs? comments -- i have a number of thoughts on his quote domuch of the work that we
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as igs is sensitive from a number of perspectives. it can involve personal privacy concerns when we are conducting investigations. it can involve recommendations and findings that we are seeing and want to make sure that we understand before we go public. one of the key things for us as inspectors general is that, as we do our oversight work, we continuously test and question the evidence to make sure that we have the whole story in the context. we have all the information and are not missing anything. we understand with the agency's perspective is. the analogy i would draw would and seeing a pond
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doc or swan on the water that appears to be gliding along and underneath, there is a lot of pat lang. -- paddling. with the right fax and right perspective. >> to go to the independence thing, you are sitting at your desk and you look around. you have a secretary of agriculture and the president of united states and the congress. -- you have the press. how much independence you have? who decides how much money you're going to get? your last question first, the end state that decides how inspectors general congress. is the i'm talking from the perspective
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of the usda. putre appropriated and together a budget request every year that goes to the normal andet process through omb it is the congress decides how much to fund us and for what. as part of that process, there are hearings in congress obtains perspectives from many sources, as they always do. ultimately, congress makes the decision as to what levels are appropriate. >> how much money for the next fiscal year have you asked for? how much are you going to get? >> we're talking about the fy 14 cycle, at this point. president has said afford a request for our office which provides a slight increase from
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our fy 13 levels. we saw sequestration and that was a complicating factor. >> did hit you at all? >> yes. we have not been held harmless from sequestration. sequestration applied across the board. in terms of what we will receive, at this stage, i do not know. both of the appropriations committees have held committees on the usda request and i've had a chance to testify before house and senate committees. we will see what they decide. but how often you testify before congress? >> a number of times. i've an opportunity to test every year during the appropriation cycle. i testify on various issues.
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for example, there have been a number of hearings on the snap program and on broadband. hearings on my role as the ig council chair. chair,king of council back in 2008, the government authorized the council for inspectors general on integrity and efficiency. why did you need this? i assume that's what you are doing anyways. why are you first chair on this? >> ok. as you point out, in 2008, congress created the council. prior to that, there was no entity. for that as the ig community evolves, various residence has created councils for agencies and agency
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heads. over the years, we came together to work on issues of common interest. 2008, there was the view that it would make sense to merge those two councils together to make sure that we had all the igs in one council and to deal with the issue providing training to our statffs. and, to encourage ourselves to work cooperatively on issues extend beyond agency lines. >> what does that mean? was -- peopleid have said that igs are here to
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deal with allegations of wrongdoing against apartment employees and public. concernut if we have a that you, personally, might not have done the right thing? one of the roles is that we have in integrity committee that is chartered to look at these allegations and evaluate them. to do whatever action is appropriate to investigate these recommendations. this committee is headed by the of and has done a fine job incrementing the program. >> why have there been vacancies at the defense department and the state department for an inspector general. defense andcies at state have existed for a number of years. i think all of us would agree thesein an ideal world,
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inspector general vacancy should be filled as quickly as possible. as you think about the presidential appointment process, there are a number of steps along the way to successfully appoint someone. , the ige statute council is responsible for identifying qualified candidates and providing those names to the white house. we provided to the presidential personnel office and they nominate the candidates. ultimately, the candidates goes through the confirmation process which involves the oversight committee and the government affairs oversight committee. is a jewel committee process and there are numerous points along -- it is a dual committee process and there are a number of points along the way
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that can be real a nomination -- rail a nomination. >> have you read the inspectors general handbook? i want to read a paragraph that talks about this independence thing. is under complaints by employers. this is paragraph b. section seven. there is a lot in there that a layman cannot understand. this is something you can give us an answer on --
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>> how much comfort as i give ifeone who wants to complain the inspector general can out someone who is a whistleblower? >> the subject is sensitive. andepend on whistleblowers we value their information. it is important that they feel comfortable coming forward and saying that they have and that they are concerned about reprisal and want their identity protected. we understand that. the statute requires us to extend protections. in practice, what we will do is
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advise whistleblowers of these protections and say, to the extent that you can give us specific information, that is more helpful than general information. in the course of providing specific information and details, it may be that an educated and informed her sin might be able to guess the identity of a whistleblower and you need to be aware of that risk will stop secondly, if we move forward with your information, and we find that there is cause to take us to prosecution and to mistreat of action, we need to tell you that your identity may need to be disclosed will stop we want to -- disclosed. we want to be upfront with our whistleblowers and make sure they know what protections are available to them. eight, this is a
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other facet of this business -- >> a compounds this. they do not have an inspector general at the defense department, they have been acting inspector general. should we, as citizens, feel comfortable that we are being protected and why did they not give inspectors general more independence but you mark >> let me offer a few comments. you pointed out that the
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language company section of the law that deals with the defense inspector general. provision.unusual of the 73 inspector general's, only arstanding is that few igs have restrictive language. for most igs, there is no restrictive language. at agriculture, the secretary of agriculture does not have the authority to tell me to start or stop. for 90% of the agencies, this is true. the exemptions are for the inspectors general in agencies that have concerns involving national security. the cia, the defense department. when congress wrote that
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language, it was balancing the igd and importance of an being able to run investigations against the need of the administration to manage their activities. practice, and, i do not want to speak for the , if an ig cia ig believes that it is critical to manage -- run a job and do an audit or investigation, they have a very persuasive argument to go ahead and initiate that, keeping in mind the statutory language. >> have you ever sat at your disk and said, i do not have enough independence? >> personally, no. withbeen fortunate to work
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agency heads who understood the value of an independent voice within agency. it may not always be comfortable. message that audits and investigations bring are not always agreed with. but, i have never experienced interference. >> i want to show something. a democrat from california and a committee talking about the ig. >> i don't know what we can do as a committee. it is a waste of taxpayer funds if all these recommendations that are being made and the savings that are suggested, and the $87 billion range, if we cannot force these departments to take these actions that inspectors general suggest.
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>> yes. what do you think? >> that comment came from a hearing that was within the last year. it encapsulates, i think, another come up perhaps, reception on the part of the public that, inspector to gols are authorized and initiate action and to make the program change. a we did take a personnel action -- we can take a personnel action. the inspector general act does not give us that authority. we have the power of the pen. persuasion, logic, we can surface issues and make recommendations. we do not have the authority to run programs or implement
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recommendations. out,e congresswoman points congress plays a critical role, in terms of providing oversight to agencies and asking agencies, what are you doing, with respect to these recommendations at the inspector general has made? you agree with them russian mark are you moving ahead with that is a critical world -- do you agree with them? are you moving ahead with them? that is a critical role. man, who is the inspector general of the irs and treasury, who outed all this. >> our report included three key findings. the internal revenue service and inappropriate criteria
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identified organizations applying for tax exempt status based on their names are policy tax-ions, rather than exempt law and treasury regulations. the case is of the irs were political cases and experienced delays.d >> do you know the man? as a part of your group? he part of your group? >> yes. his name is russell george. he's inspector general of the irs. 3 igs.one of the 7 > was he appointed by the president>>? ? >> yes. known what wase going on at the irs if we did not have him in the mix?
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readingderstanding, newspapers and watching film, and i could be wrong on this, my understanding is that is office was requested to do this audit by a member of congress and he has been engaged in that work for a length of time. he was testifying on the findings of his report. obviously, his findings are of great interest to all of us. as a taxpayer, i'm not sure that i would have been aware of those issues without the ig report. >> the missionaries and the vacancies -- let me show you some of the vacancies. i understand somebody has been nominated for the state department job but has not been confirmed. >> yes.
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the white house has nominated candidates for the state department, labor department, and the defense department has a nominee. >> look at the numbers of days it has been. should the public be suspicious of what is going on here? i don't know what this means. would you haved the operations like the defense department or state department, with all this money going out, and there's nobody there. >> the charts that you put up shows that these positions after baking for years. in some cases, five or six years and these are major offices. in the best of all possible worlds, we would confirm igs as soon as possible. absenceay that, in the
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of igs, the public should take comfort in knowing that the work of the office continues. there are career executives in those offices. very accomplished audit executives and managers. the ongoing day-to-day work of audit investigation continues. even though there is not a confirmed ig. net.gov >> yes. it is a public website. >> what is the advantage of the public going to the website? developed-- we have this website and the purpose of provide the information about the council and what we do. and, to provide links to the 75 ig members.
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if you are curious about what the hhs ig is doing about medicare, or the social security ig is doing, with respect to social security fraud, you can logon and find a link to those websites to go there and read their latest audit and investigative reports. a real sense of what the major challenges are facing those agencies and igs. >> the total number of people who work for igs in the 73 different offices and how much the federal government pays to have these investigating units? >> you raise a good point. we have a reports of the ig counsel, which we put together every year, that accumulates those statistics. of the as a member
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public, want to know how much money you are investing in this as a taxpayer and with return of investment is, we have that investment -- information there. the most recent report said that employeesbout 12,000 doing ig work. 73 offices. of about investment $17 for every dollar that is invested. >> what does that mean? >> for every dollar appropriated , make recommendations, with respect to improper payments, recoveries, criminal , they get $17 for every dollar invested. wikipedias a site on
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"at is under the heading of, rock war misappropriations." it refers to allegations that billions of dollars have not been accounted for or misappropriated. for programs that include the reconstruction and rebuilding of iraq after the war. bowen. covered stuart here's the line i want you to explain. the unitedfrom states department of justice and white house are inventing further inquiry into the allegations. if you are in the public and watching billions of dollars that have been reported lost or
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have just vanished and you see gag orders, is that accurate? onwithout commenting wikipedia and the source of the thatnts, i had not heard comment or characteristic. i can talk with the general work. the department of justice is a limiting those gag orders. as an ig, when i do work that involves misappropriations of funds or embezzlement. any kind of fraud. if we find that there is evidence that supports the finding of fraud, the first thing we do is consult with the justice department. the prosecutors.
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we say that, this is the evidence we are finding. is this of prosecuted interest? is there a way to move this forward? is there a way to make this succeed? prosecutor decides that they're going to take that on, the justice department has its protocols for those cases. criminaluse the justice system, which can involve grand juries and involvents, which can confidential informants and the use of sensitive investigative techniques that are not things that law enforcement or the prosecutor committee would be appropriate for general knowledge, at april the very preli -- for limitary -- we work carefully.
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i do not of the specifics of the situation and i am offering some comments. --is is a leading question> >> this is a leading question, would we be better off if the igs had the same kind of independence that the supreme court has? >> that is an interesting question. >> where you would really have independence and the department head cannot just get rid of you. sandbagged. whistleblowers have real independence. we are 17 swing dollar debt. -- $17 trillion debt. fraud,dy says waste, abuse, we are going to get rid of that.
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here we are, believe the dollars lost. -- billions of dollars lost. > the office is at the crux of the debate. there are some who say that we have too much independent and not enough. my independent -- my experience is that, on occasion, there are situations where an ig is not graded access to documents in a way that they should be. there may be situations where an agency does not fully understand the independence of an ig and that relationship does not work as well as it should. there have been headlights, in the past, about things like that. by and large, i think that most
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of the time we have the ability to do the work that we think needs to be done, to make the recommendations that we think need to be made and, at the end of the day, we believe that we are from filling the mission in the taxpayers interest. >> limit bring back to neil borofsky. he talks about starting his office inside of treasury and hiring a woman from stuart andns office to come over be his pr person. tommy out important this kind of thing can be -- tell me how in port and this kind of thing can be? >> she said she would not lie to me. she's going to me how the press work and how she believed it was in order for this agency, as a
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new agency, to be up front with the media and never spain and do the tactics that other agencies do. press something and not putting your name behind it. is one of the great tactics of this town. people will say anything when their name is not attached. you can lie and exaggerate. if i were to hire her, we were not going to play any of those games. >> do you have a press person? some comments on that, i have a person, who is one of my lawyers, who handles the work with the congress and with media. we get a lot of inquiries from the press. we have someone who handles those issues for us. >> what did you think of what he said? >> i'll talk about my experience at the usda, we run a
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transparent operation. we fulfill our role most when we keep congress informed with what we're doing and respond with accurate information to the .edia we keep in mind our responsibilities to the administration and congress. we understand that credibility is our biggest asset and losing their credibility sense our assets down the tubes. relies onility accuracy and we do our best to provide complete information. earlier in they, was appointed by bill
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clinton and came in during the bush administration. he was responsible for creating the huge controversy over the u.s. attorneys. it is complicated. i want to show you 15 seconds of what glenn fine said about what an ig does. as a try to use that mechanism for improving the operations and i find it satisfying and challenging. i believe that we can a positive impact on the way our government works. >> would we be better off, when politics, if a democrat with the ig in a republican administration and vice versa question mark wax that is interesting question. we are appointed without regard
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for political affiliation and that is one of the requirements. we like to do our work without regard to the political consequences or political interests involved. that is not to say that we are unaware of the work that we do having political perspectives here. have been igs for a long time have worked in have workedhere we for republican and democratic administrations and may have been appointed by a republican wortham credit administration. control can change. comfortable may not be the exact word, but we are experienced with dealing with lyrical perspectives tom in terms of how people react to our work. the bottom line is that what we do has to be based on
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objectivity. makese of our products policy decisions. thehe investigation on state department, this is about 30 seconds. we've talked about this. let's put this in perspective. department has been vacant for over four years. whenosition became vacant the most recent ig resigned criminale was blocking investigations into contractors operating in iraq. there was the opportunity to fill this position with a qualified worsen to restore the credibility of the office. this is not been realized. the position has been vacant since that date.
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>> what recommendations would you or your counsel have to take igs out of politics? is it possible? question, a good about the appointment of igs. half of the igs are appointed by the agency heads. not all them are smaller. some of them are quite large. at this a way to look from both perspectives. on the good side, it avoids the confirmation process and the lengthy process that it takes four presidential appointment and confirmation. on the other hand, agency heads who have the authority to theint their igs also have authority to remove their igs and it is a more direct relationship. igs,rms of appointment of
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greater legal minds than mine suggested we look at the constitution and how that might have an impact. consideredre officers of the executive branch, that probably needs to be factored in. >> one of the things on your website -- the council's programs.s training of the 12,000 employees of the different igs that can take these training courses, i want to ask you about a list of them. $495, where does that go? academy ando the ig training institute. >> is that independent of the government? >> no.
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under the ig counsel, we have two major missions. one is to do cost-cutting studies and to train our staff. institute.ell-run the tuition is designed to pay the cost of instructors and the facilities. what is the budget for the council? >> $7 million. >> how many people work their question mark >> about eight employees. we had a few more employees at a law enforcement academy. >> i want to read this one. critical thinking skills. this three-day program introduces reasoning, socratic questioning, and identifying logical fallacies.
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socratic questioning, where did that come from? it takes me back to my days in law school. the socratic method. you may be familiar with it. it is the professor -- the way aat a professor questions student's answers to get them to the nub of the issue. >> there is another course that is $150. here it is. the importance of ig independence and what it means in practice. challenges and opportunities. the offices of inspectors general presents, conducting oversight. but that course was developed in -- >> that course
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was developed in response to an interest in the community to provide an understanding among our staffs on the issues that we have been talking about. what does the statute provided russian mark how does this work in practice? what does the statute mean when talking bout responsibilities to congress and the administration? how do we carry that out? we find that to be useful broader's and investigators. -- for auditors and investigators. >> have you been in government all this time and never done a television interview? >> i was waiting for the right opportunity. thank you for providing that. >> phyllis fong has been our guest. time is up. we thank you.
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>> for dvd copy of this program, call this number. for free transcripts or to give q&a.orgnts, visit us at q&a is also available as a podcast. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> next on c-span, nick clegg. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] then, today's memorial service for the victims of the navy yard shooting last week, with comments from president obama.
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