ellison will join us. we will talk with the arizona republican david schweiker, a member of the small business committee and later, the conversation on the effect the shutdown could have a national security with john billinger. ♪ ♪ good morning, it's thursday october 10, 20 13. although the federal shutdown has now reached a 10, there are still plenty of news tongue out of washington this morning. treasury secretary jacob lew is set to appear before a senate panel today. he will warn congress about the looming debt ceiling deadline. at the white house today, president obama will meet with the house gop leaders about the budget impasse one day after introducing his pick for the next chair of the federal reserve on wednesday. also wednesday at the pentagon, military leaders announce a new plan to keep military death

benefits in place after they were shut off by the shutdown. we will get all those stories this morning and we are opening up our phone lines to you to hear your thoughts on day 10 of the government shutdown and how it may be impacting you. give us a call -- you can also catch up with us on your social media pages or e- mail us. a very good thursday morning to you. i want to bring you the latest front page headlines about the government shut down, day 10, the front page of "the richmond times." jersey state new

ledger. a to the atlanta journal- constitution -- those are some of the front pages. schedulehursday's talking about meetings taking lice up and down pennsylvania avenue today. washington.

that's the story in "the washington post." it is day 10 of the shutdown and we are getting your calls and comments this morning but first, i want to bring in ginger gi bson. guest: good morning. host: thanks for joining us. your headline from politico --

what came out of yesterday's meeting with house democrats? guest: house democrats have often been the caucus that gets ignored the most. they don't have much bargaining power. toy get called on the most vote with republicans to get a deal done. we saw this during the fiscal cliff and we saw this in the 2011 debt ceiling problems. they can get unhappy and a lot of what is going on now is keeping the house democrats to happy and keeping them on the same page and we are not hearing what we often hear that we get complaining and second-guessing that can come from a caucus like this. they were the first to go to the white house yesterday to come out to the white house and the hill and they were, again, reassured they are on the same page with the president and he supports their goals and they support his. host: potential anger is

bubbling below the surface. where might some of the trouble if there isest: some kind of deal struck between the senate leadership and the house leadership, they don't participate in that process. we sometimes see the anger coming from house democrats that they have to get 100 votes or 200 goes to the republicans without ever being included in the process. that's the potential for anger to start to bubble up. the other is programs that they really price. republicans want entitlement reforms to be part of a big deal. they havec looked at thehain cpi, the way social security benefits are calculated and president obama included it in his budget. he signaled he would be open for it. those type of changes get made without their inclusion in the discussions and there will be unhappy house democrats.

--t: here is a headline what do we know about that potential deal? debt dealhort-term would allow some negotiations to occur in the short term. what we hear from house republicans when we hear the resident or democrats say just pass the clean cr for the debt ceiling -- they would give up all of their leverage. ceilingterm cr or debt allows them to have the discussions they are having now without the risk of default and there is division within the republican conference about whether they should do that. some think it is a good idea and it will move the challenges they are receiving from democrats and they're willing to default and allow discussions to continue but some think it's a bad idea.

especially if they combined the cr and the debt ceiling because they think a step like that will drop their fight against obama care. host: talk about who is leading the two sides in that divide over the short-term deal? here is the front page of "the la times." paul ryan has been very quiet in the process so far. we have not heard a lot publicly from him but he has been working behind the scenes, trying to get his caucus on the same page. we know he is pushing some sort of deal that would allow them to move forward with negotiations. we also know that paul ryan was the one pushing back heavily against negotiations with the senate over the last six months. he has played an interesting role in this process. the same people that have given john bane or a lot of trouble are the same ones pushing back. host: before we let you go, "

the post" says -- where do you see the news coming from today? guest: that meeting will be interesting. says he willer not treat the caucus the same way. he will only send a small negotiating group over there. it's not a moment where president obama can sway the factions that are causing the opposition. if those negotiators come back and say we think we have common ground, there could be something out of that. at this point, is looking more like the october 17 deadline is the real deadline. gibson, thank you for getting up with us this morning. guest: thanks for having me. host: we are taking your calls and comments and tweets and e- mails this morning on day 10 of

the government shut down. says he will our phone lines are open and we will go to tom on our line for republicans from michigan, good morning. are you with us? caller: good morning. yes, thank you for taking my call, best program -- best news program on tv. i would be encouraged by the buzz about possible breakthroughs. that theimply request president and congress get away from pandering to probably the

worst elements in culture stubbornwhich are a holdings of self-interest and condemnation of individuals who , fightingrent ideas as opposed to discussion. if there's going to be a real solution, the process has to include respect for people across the aisle, respect for their dignity as individuals, respect for the creativity of their ideas, and willingness to sacrifice and merge. host: have you seen any of that in the past 10 days of the shutdown? caller: it's certainly not what the news covers. i have seen it in quieter members of congress. you just mentioned paul ryan. he is a good example. over,when this is all

they have to take a break and review old films of people from the past including kennedy, nixon, reagan, carter, clinton -- any number of people -- john mccormick could name endless people who treated each other as individuals. host: and right is on our line for democrats from texas, good morning. morning, i am one of the last democrats in the state. i am so disgusted with the shutdown of the republicans. it just frustrates me. i am a veteran of the vietnam war. diedw on the seat-141 and to 27 combat support missions in vietnam and 105 sorties and i'm so disgusted with the traitors

in the republican party. wayve tried to figure out a where i can show my disgust. i have called my representative of the house and there is no response. he will not keep the government open. you cannot continue to just shut down the government because you don't like the policies of the white house. democrats have been fighting for health care reform for years. if it's left up to the republicans, there will would be no social security, no safety net at all. they just need to get over it cr and thenean discuss the differences. host: comments are coming in on our facebook page and you can post your comments there --

plenty of comments coming in on facebook and twitter. phone calls as well -- we will get to you this morning. as we noted at the top of the program, treasury secretary jack glue will be appearing at 8:00 a.m. this morning before the senate finance committee and about 45 minutes. we will be showing that live on c-span two and we will dip into that program when it happens. post" s "washington offers a preview --

that's going to be appearing live on c-span two. we will show you a bit of that when that happens this morning on "the washington journal." andre taking your calls comments for the next half hour or so on the 10th day of the government shut down. tim is next from wilson, california, on our line for

independence. caller: thank you for taking my call. votesrstand they have the to pass this and the speaker will not let it come to the floor. this does not make sense. there is a certain segment, not all republicans, but a certain segment of the republican party that i believe, and i hate to say this but the truth is the truth, that they want to punish america for electing a black president. i think they will try to make things so bad that when another black resident runs, people will say no. janice is up next from mississippi on our line for republicans, good morning. caller: good morning, i have a problem with nancy pelosi and harry reid. managed to table

everything that the republican house has sent over. i disagree with the president. he said we reduced the deficit by 50%. republican house has sent over. i disagree with the president. he said we reduced the deficit by 50%. he has actually increased the deficit 127%. all he wants to do is tax and spend. limite we want to put a on his credit card, he is at all. to negotiate it is a deadlock. nothing will change unless and says,omes down ok, this is the way it is, these are the realities of this situation. until somebody gets some common sense, we are all going to be in trouble. leading aother story lot of the papers this morning

is the nomination of janice yellin as the next chair of the federal reserve. as is the front page of "the washington journal." i want to play you a bit yesterday from that ceremony in which the president announced her nomination. she understands the necessity of a stable financial system were

removed ahead with the reforms that we have begun. protect consumers. ensure no institution is too big to fail. make sure that taxpayers are never left held holding the bag because of mistakes of the reckless few. at the same time, she is committed to the appointment and understands the human costs when americans cannot find a job. these are not the statistics. the toll is terrible on the mental and physical health of workers, their marriages, and their children. she understands this. they will have a champion in that waslen.host: president obama yesterday and here is a tweet -- that would be senate majority leader harry reid in a tweet yesterday. front pages of major newspapers are talking about the nomination. here is the front page of "the financial times."

we will stay on top of that story as it happens when the nomination hearings come up. this morning, we are talking day 10 of the government shut down and taking your calls and comments. is next from north carolina, on our line for democrats, good morning. caller: good morning to you.

host: go ahead. caller: i have been looking at all the way since the government shut down started. we know that ted cruz is the one who initiated this. he is in with the tea party and they wanted the government shut down for a government showdown caller from your mississippi called and wants to blame it on democrats, she needs to get her facts together and get them straight. she has been listening to too much rush limbaugh crap on the tv. mike on ourl go to line for independents from wisconsin. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call.

the politicians are so out of touch with the average american now a days, it's unbelievable. when they say they will forgo pay, frankly, they have money in the bank. my wife and i are both disabled. we live check to check. these politicians, frankly on both sides of the aisle, i will , i hope not forget this they are all voted out, every last one of them. --yanother thing if they keep this up, they should be up on charges for high treason. what they are doing is criminal. they are not doing their job. recalled, taken out of office, whatever it takes.

we need to run this country. this is not working. olds writes in - one of the issues that came up yesterday was the military death benefits that were shut off during the shutdown. it was an -- issue that has been bubbling up over the last week and came to a head yesterday, part of the chapter yesterday was around senate chaplain barry black, the senate chaplain who gives the opening prayer in the morning who was a former navy chaplain and tv at it from his opening prayer yesterday in the senate and called upon lawmakers to act on providing the military survivor benefits. [video clip] presence our whose

-- takeke the light, delight, to whom in affliction we call, forgive us for continuing s toew to the wind even when hearing the sounds of the approaching world wind. down when arafat or osha -- when our federal shutdown delays payments of death benefits to the families of children dying on faraway time for our it's lawmakers to say enough is enough. shame with the robe of your righteousness. forgive us.

reform us and make us whole. in your merciful name, amen. host: that was senate chaplain barry black yesterday. the militarythat death benefits would return with a deal made by the pentagon. here is the front page of " usa today" -

one other issue in terms of ilitary and veterans --va shutdown threatens benefits to 5 million beneficiaries.

here is a bit of his testimony yesterday. [video clip] >> in the last six months, the veterans benefits administration reduced the backlog of compensation claims, something we have been working on and prodding and encouraging them to do better. they have become that delivery, 100 93,000 claims in the backlog reduced it the last 190 days. a 31% increase. that is in a little over six months. --ce the shut down big jam began, the backlog has increased by 2000 claims. 7800 employees have already been furloughed, half of whom are veterans. the shut down directly threatens the ability to catch up on back lot. roughly 1400 veterans per are not receiving decisions on their

disability compensation crimes due to the end of overtime. if the shutdown does not end in the coming weeks, va will not be able to ensure delivery of november 1 to two more than 5.18 beneficiary -- 5.18 million beneficiaries. we are at day 10 of the government shut down and taking your calls and comments this morning on "the washington journal." charles is next from woodbridge, virginia on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: i have a few points to make. i find it hard to believe that nobody is really talking about the elephant in the room which is we are bringing in more money into the treasury now that we

have in the history of the federal government. like 2.6ething trillion dollars. yet we still need to raise our debt limit. i don't understand this at all. blasts the tea party but somewhere along the line, we have to put the brakes on and nobody is willing to do that except for the tea party. agree with the tactics of dealing with this during a shut down. somebody has to address this. we are bringing in more money now and we are raising our despera debt. i hope somebody reviews the procedures of the national park service. their employees have been instructed to make it more difficult for terrorists. it's unbelievable these guys are manning the gates of the grand canyon with arms. it is unbelievable. it's funny that when the

politicianr any starts to compare the way the should be fiscally responsible to the way most americans are fiscally responsible, they start lecturing us on fiscal responsibility. host: on your point of the parks service, the house oversight andresponsibility. committee has already sent letters to the national parks service asking about the closure policies. we will certainly let you know more about that. on the debt ceiling issue, two hearings you might be interested in today, the senate finance committee we talked about with issury secretary jack lew happening in about half an hour on c-span two. the senate banking also holding a hearing today at 10 a.m. and that will be live on c-span three, talking about debt

ceiling and default. at 8 two hearings, one a.m. and one at 10 a.m. you can catch both of them on our c-span channels. committee has already sent letters to the barbour is up overbearing-- a caller: good morning. i have 2 nonpartisan suggestions. asking the question. can i burn down your house? no. can i just burned down the second story tackle know. how about the garage? no. the tea party says, you are not negotiating. every bill that comes up in congress should be a clean build. if they would pass that rule, that would prevent this in the

future. the second is that it should not be up to one man in the house or senate to bring bills to the floor. the speaker of the house and the leader in the senate are the only ones who can give the go- ahead to vote on something, which negates the idea of equal representation. one more thing. i would like to see a constitutional amendment that congress must approve a budget by june of each year. if not, they are sent home without pay. roanoke,bara from virginia. a tweet. a shutdown means uncertainty and it may be good for the gop's electoral interests, but affects negatively the world and u.s. leadership. manretirement of commerce young of florida. here's the front page of his hometown paper. young to end storied house

career. florida's second-longest serving house member will retire after his 22nd term. his decision made after several years of cheery rating health, caused mainly by back problems. it will cost the tempe area one of its most effective advocates in washington. areaso in news -- tampa one of its most effective advocates in washington. up next, talking about the shutdown. we will go to larry in georgia on our line for independents. for taking myyou call. c-span, you are the only station willing to let americans be -- americans yet be americans. i am so tired of this colored

thing. i grew up hungry. hunger knows no color. illness knows no color. is one of my comments. my next comment is the socialized medicine they are trying to implement upon us, lenin or one of the communist countries stated if you have socialized medicine, you can't control the people. that is my second comment. -- you can control the people. pelosi had all of those immigrants and their yesterday at the white house. i would like to know who paid for the busing of the immigrants. about the talking rallies around washington, d.c. yesterday. caller: who paid for all of

those people to be there? host: that was larry from georgia. the effect of the shutdown is to starve the parts of the government the gop deem essential. part of the long-term gop strategy. on our line from -- formrepublicans, marie. for republicans, marie. i cannot believe what you just said. --retary of state jet blue jack lew is thinking of cutting off social security benefits for seniors or the vets. are talking about the secretary of the treasury. being heldare hostage for president -- by

president obama and his socialist cronies. a communistn country, russia. i lived in poland. communist countries and obama is doing the same thing. holdingackmailing and the american people hostage. host: marie from west bloomfield, michigan. she was talking about a headline from today's washington post. plans to warned lawmakers that he will be unable to guarantee payments to any group, whether social security bondholders, unless congress approves an increase in the federal debt limit. onbara is up from arizona our line for democrats. good morning. the comments for the

lady who just got off about obama. a lot of people seem to forget. when he was first elected in 2008, he inherited all of that deficit from bush, trying to clean it up. the thing about the obamacare, he is trying to make health care affordable for everybody. healthpe, they have free care. in canada, they have free health care. why can't we have it here? as far as congress, they have been fighting this man since day one.since everybody wants to blame obama, obama. they have to pay attention and see where it all generated from. took over from clinton, we were a trillion dollars in surplus money.

when obama took over, we were a trillion dollars in deficit. he is trying to get us back to where we were. on the foreign policy front, the u.s. is suspending its eight to egypt to signal its displeasure. the obama administration said -- suspending its aid to egypt to signal its displeasure. the obama administration said wednesday it is suspending hundreds of millions of dollars of military aid, including the delivery of defense equipment and cash, to egypt. it is a pretty clear message about u.s. concerns over undemocratic developments in egypt. on the domestic front. here's the front page of the parkersburg news. shots fired.

talking about a shooting outside a federal court building. is wheelingicer shooter. -police officer is wheeling shooter. conference, the 55-year-old resigned from the police department in july of 2000. his personal file has not been received and they do not know the circumstances of his investigation. they continue to work on it. have about five or six minutes left with you. our first segment to talk about the government -- government shutdown. roger is on our line for independents. caller: hello. there is a lot of misinformation

coming from the left. the republicans did not shut down the government. obama and the democrats have done that. the republican house of representatives sent a bill to the senate, a budget, to the senate that would fully fund the government except for obamacare. whoas obama and harry reid chose to shut down the government rather than except any defunding or delay of obamacare. so they are the ones who are punishing the american people did notobama and reid get everything they wanted from the budget, so they decided to shut down the government. host: we are talking about the shutdown in day 10. are you seeing any effects in texas? caller: gave the administration

carries through with their threat to cut off social security payments and military retirement payments and other things like that, which they will have the money to do. they can pay the bondholders and the retirees. they can do all of that. they may not be able to pay all of those nonessential workers they relieved. they will not have enough money coming in to pay for the entire budget. that ifve to suffer for that is the decision obama makes. but it will be his decision. been asking folks on facebook the same question. how much does the government shutdown affected you? at allho responded not are leading by a wide margin. 50 -- weove hundred have 1250 votes.

those who say a lot are 787 votes. you can vote in that poll at facebook.com/cspan. jim is up next on our line for republicans. good morning. caller: the last caller from texas had it right. they have enough money. have a lukewarm view of the republicans. but i am so proud of them. they have stood their ground. this residence and this latest from to withhold money people who have loved ones coming home in body bags and -- this president is the president of the democrats. he is not the resident of the

whole country. they have not known a cause greater than themselves. host: much has been made in newspapers of a possible split in the republican party. here is a tweet from joseph ramirez. if the gop does not stand up to the tea party, they will be toast. what do you make of that split that has been discussed in newspapers and that joseph ramirez is talking about? caller: i see a robust debate. you will have people looking at it differently. when you see a united them a credit party it is because liars do not mind being lied to. they believe in nothing but their own pocketbooks and their own agenda. when you have people deciding what is in the best interests of this country, you will have splits. you do not get that in the democratic party because they all told the pump -- the party

line. host: one of the lighter note stories in the papers today. one citizen cleanup crew chips in around the memorial. washington post. a man grabbed the attention of washington when he showed up with all of his ear and was spotted mowing the lawn of the lincoln memorial. the police chased him away, but it was too late. up around the memorial because no one else was. he said, i am not here to point fingers. i only want to inspire people to come out and make a difference. the building behind me serves as a moral compass for our country and the world. over my dead body will we have trashed pouring out of these trash cans. we are the stewards of these buildings that are the memorials.

there is a picture that goes along with the story in today's washington post. it became a bit of an internet sensation yesterday afternoon. time for a few more calls. ruth is up next from oklahoma city on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning. calling because my husband is retired. he is 100% disabled. we are in oklahoma city. they take good care of the vets here. we watched tv and we know what is going on. are stupidk we because we are senior citizens. no, we are not. we know that lies that are by theby the heat -- gop. we are tired of sarah palin and all of those people. we want to sit down and talk and get it over with.

why hurt people? ?hy the greatest country in the world should not put up with this. this is for third world countries. this is for other countries, not this country. this is the most wonderful country in the world. please don't destroy it. do not destroy it. host: oklahoma on our line for democrats. that will do it for our first segment on washington journal. we will continue on our shutdown with congressman keith ellison, the chairman of the congressional caucus. we will be right back.

>> this columbus day weekend, --h tv is live in what national for the southern festival of books. we will webcast the first day of events exclusively at booktv.org . james swanson on jfk's assassination and a chronicle of rural america. sunday's coverage starts at 1 p.m. and includes panels on mental health, injustice and the jim crow south. ourdon't forget to read october book club selection, walking with the wind. congressman john lewis on the early years of the civil rights movement.

/bookclub. coolidge was grace also known as the first lady of baseball. >> being in massachusetts and vermont, they were big boston red sox fans. washington,nt to they had little allegiance to the local team down there, the washington senators. we have a number of the season passes she was given by the american league. usually, they were issued to her in a wallet or a pocket book. some of those pocket books are wonderful art deco in style. is thethe exhibits certificate she was given by the boston red sox and the washington nationals, as they were called. they designated her first lady of baseball. --watch our program on verse

on grace coolidge at our website or see it saturday at 7 p.m. eastern. we continue our series live monday. >> "washington journal" continues. we are joined at the desk by minnesota -- minnesota congressman keith ellison. democrats were invited to the white house to talk about these issues. what did you come away from that meeting with? i came away with the idea that we are willing to talk about anything at all, but we cannot be in a position where the republicans are going to shut down the government and force terms on us. we have to reopen the government and then we are happy to discuss any issues the republicans might

have on their mind, including the affordable care act. if we are not negotiating with the shutdown or threatening a , we can discuss everything. republicans may not get 100% of what they want. we affirmed the idea that the affordable care act went through all of the normal processes, confirmed by the supreme court, affirmed by voters last november. we will not go back to the bad old days when people were going into bankruptcy because they got take. what is president obama asking of you? was there any arm-twisting in that meeting? guest: no arm-twisting at all people you -- no arm-twisting at all. people got up to express their views. eleanor holmes norton was concerned about d.c.. other members offered views on various topics. , we have aline is

situation where, if we do what the republicans ask, which is to dismantle the republican -- the affordable care act, what is to stop them from coming back in a few weeks and saying, now we want the epa to be dismantled, b dismantled.e cfp we cannot get into a situation where we are constantly having a gun to our head to shut down an agency that helps people. ginger gibson of on.tical -- politico she talked about some things bubbling under the surface. are you concerned that president obama will give the republicans too much in these talks cap go

-- in these talks? guest today i am not concerned. i think president obama understands this is a moment going to either get quality health care or not. in a state ourselves of perpetual blackmail or not. we have got to say, we have no conditions that we want. all we want is for you to reopen the government, which is your job very we are asking the republicans to refund the government -- fund the government and pay their debts. to shut downng us obamacare and then they will do their job. it is not acceptable. secretary jack will be dipping into a little bit of that for his opening statement. as we leave into that, this debt

ceiling issue. you think the debt ceiling issue and the shutdown gets resolved as one issue or do they get resolved separately? guest: i don't know. i am one of 430 five. i am not in leadership. my proposal is that we wrap it up and move forward. if we need to get a date -- an agreement together, i am open to that trade what i cannot vote for is this man filling programs americans really need and rely on at the point of a gun or the threat of a shutdown. some of these programs will be funded if speaker john vander moves legislation under sequestration levels. movesn boehner

legislation under sequestration. agreedthe democrats have to a level of funding that is 's originalryan budget. this is a massive concession, which would negatively impact programs that we hold dear like food stamps, head start, medical research and things like that. progressive the caucus has been pushing. guest: we have swallowed extremely hard and said, in order to end the shutdown, we will go with this agreement. we are just asking republicans to do what it is the job of every member of congress to do, which is to fund the government. shutdown thea shutdown rally ride out that window right there. we will try to bring furloughed

workers together, appealing to the republicans just to do their basic job. open the government and we will do what you want to talk about. host: we are talking with angressman keith ellison, member of the financial services committee. he is taking your calls and questions. up next on our line for republicans. caller: i just want to say, raising the debt ceiling would not be a rompuy. not only that, i am laid -- would not be up for. . would not the appropriate -- the -- be appropriate. i am laid off. i guess it me off,

will just have to eat crackers and water. guest: if we opened up the government, we would be able to move forward on important social support programs like food stamps for people facing tough times. down,shut the government all of these programs are unavailable to you. should understand the debt ceiling is not what you think it is. simply a lawing is that authorizes congress to pay bills that we have already incurred. when that means is that we have already appropriated the money. congress has already said we should spend the money. wantury is saying, if we to pay these obligations we have already incurred, we are going to have to authorize treasury to

do a bond issue or an auction to raise more money so we can pay these bills. if we don't pay these bills, think about what would happen to your interest rate on your credit card if you did not pay. those interest rates would skyrocket and you would have even less money to meet your needs. you toctfully urge rethink your position on the debt ceiling. it is not asking for money to spend more money. it is asking for money to pay the bills that we have already incurred. away we are a few minutes from the opening of the financial services committee hearing. chairman max baucus will be leaving that hearing. arrange the member is already ofch -- the ranking member that committee is already hatch. we will give you a little bit of that meeting when it happens. in the meantime, a question on

twitter. how are minority tea party congressman stalling the entire u.s. government while we stand by and watch and do nothing? guest: that is a good question. at ave passed a cr compromise to level. the house needs to take it up. one person and one person alone, mr. john boehner, can bring it up for a vote. he has refused to do so because this group of tea party republicans say they would take drastic measures if he did. many republicans fear being primaried. boehner know if mr. fears losing his speakership. the shutdown was something that they republicans had been talking about for a long time. there was a new york times article recently released

describing by date this whole shutdown and the claim that the shutdown was something that happened. was in a and colleague videotape saying, we are going to shut down the government. this is something republicans have been talking about and planning for quite a while. today, we will have a shutdown the shutdown rally on behalf of and with furloughed workers on the senate upper park. even if it is raining, we will be out there. we have got to appeal to speaker boehner to do the right thing. host: you were at another rally earlier this week. you got arrested. here is a picture of you getting arrested. what was this rally? guest: one of the sad realities of this year is that the

immigration debate has simply stalled. i have complaints about the senate bill, but i would vote for it because it is a path toward citizenship and status. it languished in the house. the was an attempt to get house to take up this critical issue of immigration. republicans shutdown the government, people's lives continue to go on. a path to need citizenship, who need to get world-class talent and all kinds of dreamers who need to go to college, these are the realities they are facing. this was an effort to draw attention to an issue people need to focus attention on. colleaguesn of my joined with about 200 other protesters to dramatize the importance of dealing with

immigration reform. from up next on our line emma kratz from florida. you are on with congressman for democrats from florida. you are on with congressman keith ellison. caller: i want you to explain the debt and the deficit difference because people do not understand. i think what we need to do is gerre the voting and the koching, because the brothers and the oil producers own the republican party. they are taking bribes to get what they want and it is making the rest of us suffer. my husband is retired military, 22 years. things need to change up there.

the republicans are out for themselves. the democrats work so hard for the people and something has got to be done. guest: thank you. i want totell you, thank you and your husband for -- let me tell you i want to thank you and your husband for your service to our country. my son could not get his tuition assistance. he was not complaining. i was the one asking are you going to enroll in school. he said that tuition assistance is shut down because of the shutdown. and the commissary is shutdown. that is one little 19-year-old soldier. the debt is the accumulated indebtedness of the country. if you add up the debt, it is a big number that is there over time. the annual is

difference between total receipts and total expenditures. droppingit has been significantly over the last several years. this has been a combination of things. it is largely because, even though the job picture is anemic, we have been adding jobs. housing and manufacturing have been doing a little better, but not enough. we have begun to pay down the debt and the deficit. have a short-term deficit problem. we have a long-term debt problem. the way to solve that problem is we need to grow the economy. that means education workforce infrastructure, making sure we are building the productive capacity and making sure people are doing better. if people are making money and paying more taxes, they are paying more money into the system and offload the debt. they are two different numbers.

that me say finally about gerrymandering. the democrats got 1.4 million more votes than republicans it in the last election and yet we are still down 17 seats in the house. in the state of ohio, their number is about 15. i could be wrong about that. the democrats only have four seats in the whole state. the same thing in north carolina. undermineding has the democratic will of the people. people are not getting the representatives they want. if they were, democrats would be in the majority. alex is on our line for democrats. you are on with keith ellison. caller: good morning. the point i wanted to mention is closing the government is not solving anything.

we are suffering because of the war policies being tolerated during the president bush administration and president obama as well. money.nd a lot of moneye to spend a lot of in congress. we are suffering. the regime is not a good thing. host: thank you very much. thank you for your thoughts. are a few minutes away from the senate financial services committee hearing featuring treasury secretary jack lew. you can see that hearing room

there. you can see the full hearing on c-span 2. that treasuryyou secretary's opening statement. there is that treasury secretary shaking hands on his way into the room. on the line for republicans from north carolina. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. lsnderstand representative -- keith ellison is talking about they will have an assembly on the steps with a furloughed workers. tosseds a number being around, 800,000 furloughed workers from military bases. i would like him to answer a question for me. percentage ofhe those furloughed workers that

are double dippers. isre is a misnomer sometimes a number of these people who are retired military who get these jobs around these military bases and they are double dippers. essential to national security. we call them civil contract is or whatever. callingother name, like a janitor a maintenance supervisor. he was talking about creating jobs and opening up more good paying jobs for people. but we cannot do something about these people who are double dipping and drawing a pension and reuse them to say these are furloughed workers. of some of these people. people who are retired who are drawing a pension and they also have another job. guest: i feel your concern. i do not really see the problem.

if a person has worked in their lives and decides they want to work and they are qualified and they can find someone to hire them, i cannot quite figure out how that is wrong. feel the sense that you think it is wrong. it is difficult for me to think it is wrong. i am not a double didn't -- double-dip are. there are several members of congress who have a right to a pigeon they have earned and they get a paycheck. theymeone -- to a pension have earned and they get a paycheck. you might have a excellent point. unfortunately, i was not able to see it. host: we have seen the pentagon call back most of their furloughed workers. the intelligence community is bringing back many of their furloughed workers. you see othero

furloughed workers being brought back? problems -- was there were problems with the chicken that was being served. if you have ever had food poisoning, you will know. ofre are huge numbers workers still out of work. .pa my republican colleagues say they are concerned about the debt and the deficit. part of the way we push those numbers down is that we get receipts from the irs. nine percent of them are furloughed. there are a number of things we are contributing to uncertainty and the debt and the deficit. it would seem to me that perhaps we could get together and reopen the government with no

conditions about reopening -- ending the affordable care act. host: we are getting ready to hear from treasury secretary jack lew. prioritization of the debt. i want to get your thoughts on whether it is possible to prioritize our debt. a poorsome say that is way of managing our nation's finances. chinaay this is the paid first built. we are going to pay foreign creditors -- some say this is bill.y china first we have a long-term debt problem. we should address it. you address it in a measured way. shock not want to markets. and you have a plan. this is shut down after shutdown after economic crisis after economic crisis tom a all self-

inflicted. crisis, allnomic self-inflicted. a shutdown the government based on the condition that we defund obamacare. now they say we will pay for wic or we will pay for medical research. all of these little, tiny programs. there are 79 bills that need to be passed. we could open it up in 15-20 minutes. it is all up to john boehner. that is well we are rallying today on the upper center mall. host: there are some strategies on the left. this idea of the president going through the debt ceiling and raising the debt ceiling on his own. what do you make of that possibility? guest: we have had discussions eighth amendment.

do the creditors of the united states believe we have enough money to pay our debts and do we have the political will to pay our debts. they do not want to know if there is a cute trick we can pull up. they want to know if we have the willingness to pay our debts. that is the essential question. that is why republicans must join with democrats to raise the debt ceiling. we must do it. it cannot be conditional on the affordable care act. they have to do it. it is our patriotic duty to make sure we safeguard the full faith and credit of the united states. host: a week from the debt ceiling deadline. do you think that will happen? guest: i believe people are essentially good no matter how they are behaving at the moment.

i believe republicans are going to come to their senses. there are 24 members of the republican caucus who say they will do the responsible thing. i asked jon banner to let us vote. asknd other folks will -- boehner to let-- us vote. lew's testimony is happening on c-span 2. there is chairman max baucus taking his opening statement right now before secretary jack lew will testify. is up from virginia on our line for republicans. good morning. you are on with keith ellison. caller: i would like to make three quick points. about the double dippers. the reason it does matter is

that the taxpayers are paying their retirement. if a person wants to double dip, they can go into five it is nice and collect retirement where the businesses pay that second retirement and it does not affect the taxpayers. back to my original point i called for. i am 58 years old. i have been a lifelong democrat. the democrats party left me years ago by going so far to the left to the extremists that i will never vote for the democrats again. you need to change the name to the dixiecrats. trying to enslave the american people into getting into these government programs where it is almost impossible to get out of because you are

between a rock and a hard place. disagree respectfully. pro-ixiecrats were a segregationist party. they broke away from the democrats because they wanted to maintain a system of white supremacy across our country. i think it is a very inaccurate description. i would like to have a longer aboutsation with ed republican policies that have resulted in stagnated wages for the last are the years -- for the last 30 years, that have increased inequality so that the rich people get all of the income gains and the rest of us do the best we can. i just have a difference of opinion. i respect that. this is america. ed can't think what he thinks.

i get to think what i think. can think what he thinks. if a person are and paycheck, he should get it. host: congressman keith ellison, chairman of the progressive caucus. how many members? you work a full-time job, you should be able to earn a living that keeps you out of poverty. we believe in social security and protecting that program. we try to keep our country out of wars and we believe and environmental sustainability. host: the senate finance committee is having a hearing right now that you can watch right now on c-span 2.

his openinggetting statement right now. next from ozone park new york on our independent line for congressman keith ellison. caller: we keep hearing tea brothers.the koch let's talk about george soros. we know that progressives run the country. guest: the new york times details how the republicans have been planning this shut down. it is because of the shutdown that this crisis of paying death benefits has happened. it was not democrats who said,

we will only fund the government if we get a concession of some kind. it was the republicans who said, we will only open government if you defund the affordable care act. they demanded a number for the budget which is far below what they needed. we agree to it just so we could reopen the government. a gentle man mentioned the death benefit crisis. this pains my heart. my son is active-duty military. no shutdown and we would not even be discussing death then if it's at all. 26 people have been killed in .fghanistan .hese families are waiting pentagonyou think the announcement yesterday solved this problem?

we need to take whatever measures we need to take to solve the problem for the family . i want to talk about how we solve this problem that has to debtth raising the ceiling. one family said we will cover the debt -- that the benefits for this family. isn't that a shoddy way to run the government? job.ould just do our r, we could just get a clean c we would not be having this conversation. we would be talking about dealing with all of the suicides that soldiers returning from afghanistan have been suffering. we would be talking about how we are going to plan a 21st-century

infrastructure so we can move data and people around and use energy more efficiently. we are not talking about what we should be talking about. we are talking about whether we can get a couple to pay death and offense in wisconsin because the shutdown will not allow the government to do it. that is a sad state of affairs. host: on twitter, did ted cruz jumped the shark on a gop plant to shut down the government or did he start it yet go -- did he start it? it was clear his plan to shut down the government had been in the works for a long time. people say, why do the republicans want to shut down the government? some of them believe that the government beuld be shrink -- should shrunk to the size that it can

be drowned in the bathtub. that was said by grover norquist. i do believe the government should stay out of people's personal business. this idea of minimalist, small, tiny, irrelevant government does not meet the modern reality of a country of 300 17 million people who need to get around, who need millionafely, -- 317 people who need to get around, who need to fly safely and eat the meat. we need a balance between the public sector and the private sector to the benefit of the american people. new york. brooklyn, you are on the line for congressman keith ellison. are you there yet go -- are you there?

cory from to rochester, minnesota. there?are you i am.: yes, i am a united states marine. i am a combat marine suffering inflicted when i was in afghanistan. i did ford taurus in afghanistan and iraq. 4 two wars -- tours in afghanistan and iraq. administrationhe said i do not believe we will have enough money to pay the soldiers who have come home who have put their lives on the line. i lost 59 men undermine command.

i am suffering from cancer. woundsso many different high am i going to survive without disability benefits? life to this country. i am not republican or democrat. i am a marine and i take my orders. what about all of the men and women who have served and have nothing to look forward to? putovernment does not get back online, we are not going to receive our money. we are not going to receive our disability? where are we going to go? guest: were you finished? i do not want to interrupt you. caller: i know all of the representatives from minnesota. ls is a retired major

from the army. how can this happen. what are we going to do? live we haveing to made the ultimate sacrifice. and then the bickering and arguing about opening up a state .eart you gave $100,000 for five lights. i do not understand. i would like everybody to do orir jobs or grab a weapon stand on a post and go on a patrol and stands in our position and let us run this government. that is all i have to say. i am very, very upset.

people are going to be in for a big surprise when it comes to election time. corey, i thank you for your service. i have a child in active-duty service. i can tog everything get this government opened immediately. i would vote for a budget. would cut into important programs that i believe in, but i would vote for that number anyway. this shutdown is the reason problems are happening. it is because one faction said we will not open the government unless you defund parts of the american law and eight program that is going -- a program that is going through all of the normal processes. get thisove to

government opened immediately. i would vote for it in a heartbeat. i would ask for it and i hope you asked for it and say, open up the government. you can argue about the affordable care act later. that's take care of these veterans now. you., i feel for this shutdown breaks my heart. i can tell you about folks who cannot get their social security checks. veterans who have been hurt. people have been inconvenienced because of vacations. people who have been left in situations like you, who are on social security. it does not have to be this way. this is a self-inflicted won't and we need to change it immediately. i hope you tell your story to people who are not agreeing to a clean continuing resolution.

little want to dip and a too that hearing that is taking place right now. treasury secretary jack lew just started his tech timoney -- testimony. here is what he is saying. >> among the risk that we control, the biggest threat to sustained growth in our economy crisesrring manufactured in washington and self-inflicted wounds. we face a manufactured political crisis that is beginning to deliver an unnecessary blow to our economy at the time when the united states economy and american people have painstakingly fought back from the worst recession since the great depression. in addition to the economic cost of the shutdown, the uncertainty around raising the debt limit is continuing -- beginning to stretch markets.

the highest level since october 2008. in measures of unexpected volatility in the stock market have risen to the highest levels in a year. he only way to avoid further damage to our economy is for congress to act. i know from my conversations with a wide range of business leaders representing industries from manufacturing to banking, this is a paramount concern for them. it is important for congress to reopen the government, to raise the debt ceiling, and to work with the president to address our fiscal challenges in a balanced fashion. and presidents and the treasury secretaries alike --e protected the full slate full faith and credit of the united states. this country possesses the strongest credit in the world.

the full consequences of a default or the serious aspect of a default by the united states are impossible to predict an awesome to contemplate. denigration of the full faith and credit of the united states will have an effect on financial markets and the value of the dollar in exchange markets. if congress fails to meet its responsibilities, it could deeply damaged financial markets, the ongoing economic recovery, and the jobs and savings of millions of americans. i have a responsibility to be transparent with the american people and congress about these risks. it would be a great mistake to discount and dismiss them. i urge congress to take action immediately so that we can honor all of our country's past commitments. the treasury department has regularly updated congress as new information has become available about when we would exhaust our extraordinary measures.

treasury has provided information about what our cash balances would be when we exhaust our extraordinary measures. i have consistently provided provided congress with the best information about the urgency. treasury continues to project that the extraordinary measures will be exhausted no later than november 17, at which time the united states will have run out of borrowing authority. will place our economy in a dangerous position. if we have insufficient cash on hand, it would be impossible for the united states of america to meet all of its obligations, including social security and medical benefits, payments to our military and veterans and contracts with suppliers for the

first time in our history. we are relying on investors from all over the world to continue to hold u.s. bonds. we hold more than $100 billion in u.s. bills. f let me be clear. trying to time a debt limit increase to the last minute could be very dangerous. if congress does not act and the united states suddenly cannot pay its bills, the repercussions would be serious. raising the debt limit is congress' responsibility, because congress and congress alone is empowered to set the maximum amount the government can borrow to meet its financial obligations. some have suggested they should be paired with spending and puts reforms. i have repeatedly noted the debt limit has nothing to do with new spending. it has to do with spending that congress has already approved and bills that have already been incurred. host: you've been listening to

treasury secretary jack lew testifying before the senate finance committee this morning. you can watch that full testimony on c-span2. but right now, we're joined on the "washington journal" by congressman david schweikert, republican of arizona. you've been listening in to the treasury secretary's testimony along with me, and some of his words, not raising the debt ceiling could be deeply damaging to financial markets and the ongoing economic recovery. this would be serious repercussions for the american people. your take on his testimony so far. guest: in his opening testimony, or opening statement, he also used the language manufactured crisis. and agree with him on that, though i actually somewhat believe that the tone creating it a crisis has actually come out of the white house and the treasury secretary himself. you know, i think the american people are good enough at math

that we could have had an honest discussion saying, look, here's where we are for spending for 2014, here's where we are for projected revenues for 2014, this is the differential. we're actually intending to finance in some means, whether it be through additional debt or many of us in the house who actually think we should dice it up in different fashions. to demonstrate to the world debt markets that we're actually taking the accumulation of our debt seriously and intend to do what we can to mitigate it. host: we've got time this morning. take us through the math as you see it. for 2014 fiscal year, under current budgetary mechanics, not the ones that have come out of the house, but actually the continuing resolution dollar amounts, we're going to spend about $3.6 trillion. we're going to take in a little over $3 trillion so. if you divide three into $3.6 trillion, we have about a 16% shortfall in revenues for 2014.

that's the finances gap. look, we're 16% short on what e intend to spend in 2014. now, how do you cover that? and tradition asked, you'd raise the debt ceiling, and the majority of debt ceiling hikes over the last, you know, 50 years, there's been things attached to it, either new restraints, different commissions, other ways to sort of deal with that long-term debt outlook. and in regards to some of the materials to how bad the erosion and the long-term debt outlook, and really, that's the 800-pound gorilla in the room we really need to be talking about. one of the proposals we've made why not office is dice it up? host: this is the debt ceiling alternative act? guest: the debt ceiling alternative act.

let's actually walk through what the $900 billion that i believe the white house is ultimately requesting really is. $300 billion of that is the payback for what they call the extraordinary measures. social security, civil service retirement, the funds that they've borrowed out of. when they talk about extraordinary measures, they're reaching into different trust accounts and using those resources to continue to inance the government. the shortfall going to 2014, $237 billion of that is actually the interest. the house has passed legislation back last spring that is referred to as a prioritization bill. but what it really did was take interest and make it exempt from the debt ceiling, so you'd never, ever allow someone to use that word, well, we are going to default on our interest payments, which is, as you see from the letter

yesterday, from bill gross, from pimco and others, said it's absurd language, we should not be using that type of some hillness. and then for the remaining portion, it's what's the hard financing debt to run and pay for things, and i believe there's ways to break that up, whether it's the roll off with certain as 60's or a combination of assets and debt. host: and you proposed selling some federal real property toss cover this as part that have bill? guest: actually, it's less than real properties. our estimate is the federal government holds several trillion dollars in assets of some kind, whether it be frequency spectrum, whether it be assets, mortgage-backed assets at fan sandee freddie, and a whole variety of other things that are negotiateable or you can sell futures on. there's alternatives out there. host: we had congressman ellison on before, and we were talking about this idea of prioritization, and he refers

to it as the pay china first act. respond to that. guest: yeah, and look, that's great political rhetoric, and, you know, the congressman and i are the complete opposite, but actually we're friends. that's political language. my goal this morning is actually to have an honest math discussion. host: are you saying our foreign creditors before social security? guest: no, and here's my reality. i was treasurer for one of the biggest counties in the united states, maricopa county, about 4.2 million people. our $6 billion in cash holdings were laddered into u.s. sovereign debt. are you telling me you don't want to pay my police officers, my correction officers, my teachers in maricopa county, arizona? and that's why it's such disingenuous language. great politics, pay china, pay japan first. if someone is willing to invest in our debt, we made a deal, we have an obligation, whether

that be, you know, my accounts in arizona or anyone else that's willing to make that investment. host: we're taking your calls this morning with congressman david schweikert, republican of arizona. we're talking about his debt limit proposal, his al eastern tives act as he calls it, and any other questions you have as we enter shutdown day five. we'll start with shirley from dover, pennsylvania, on our line for republicans. shirley, good morning. u're on with congressman schweikert. caller: yes, i'm just really disappointed in the fact that our government is actually worried about -- i know it's a deficit. we made that ourselves. but on this point, the people of the united states, we worry about the social security, and i believe that people should start standing up and saying, hey, i have two children, i don't want no more, i don't want to have to live off the government like that, on

welfare and on access checks and stuff. i think we should start putting a limit on where the people should start being responsible for themselves. and maybe we wouldn't have this situation. but the government just keeps giving and giving and giving, which i understand, we as a erson need help. but come on, let us show responsibility for this. guest: i appreciate the call. i want to be sort of brutally honest. let's face it, the political class, particularly here in washington, often cares about their next election more than current fiscal policy. when you start trying to have honest conversations -- and i'm hoping it's one of the things we can get to this morning. i actually brought the c.b.o.'s long-term deficit fiscal report, and it's geeky, but

that's actually what's most important to your family from a governmental standpoint of, we do hit a wall financially, and we need those of us in the political crass to stop using your money and other people's moneys to, in many ways, buy our votes. host: andy is up next on our line for democrats from covington, georgia. good morning. you're on with congressman schweikert. caller: yes, good morning, congressman schweikert. i have a question, and then a comment. my question would be to you. did you support your senator, senator mccain, in the election in 2006, and did you support mitt romney in 2012? guest: oh, sure. caller: ok, that's good. you know what, congressman? you were so wrong on both of those issues. see, now you're right about this. you and the rest of the republicans that have your

political ideology, you're on the wrong side of history, just like you were when you were trying to keep me from going to school back in the 1960's. host: congressman schweikert? guest: look, and i hear coming to georgia is a beautiful part of the country, but think about what you just said. we're trying to have a conversation about the fiscal health of the country and the direction we're going, and somehow the question rolled back to racist tendencies from 50 years ago. and in some ways that should break your heart, because it demonstrates the ability to have an honest conversation about political math, about budgetary math, somehow now turns into in that case racial politics. host: i want to go back to prioritization of the debt, this from the "wall street journal," a recent chart they put out. if the government choose to see

pay certain parts of the federal government, other parts of the federal government that they wouldn't be allowed to pay. so if they chose to pay medicare, medicaid, social security, interest on the treasuries, food stamps and educational programs, along with military pay, "the wall street journal" notes that ter we hit that debt ceiling deadline, we wouldn't pay sal riis, veterans benefits, and some security income and a few other aspects of the government. this idea of picking winners and losers of which part of the government you're going pay, address that. guest: yeah, first off, i need to make sure we have appear understanding here. even in my proposal and every member i have a discussion with on the republican side of the house, no one is having a discussion of not finding a way to cover that -- covering that 16 prsprs shortfall we have in the house. or excuse me, in our federal udget.

the discussion is how do you do it and what adds fiscal discipline for what comes at us near the end of this decade where we start to explode the national debt? and in some ways it's actually sort of heartbreaking that it requires these sort of inflexion points, whether it be in the budgetary mechanics or debt ceiling, to actually even bring parties to the table to have a very uncomfortable discussion, and that is the unsustainability of what's going on in our mandatory spending. on the chart you pulled out of the "wall street journal," i hope you'll notice -- and i don't know if the cameras were able to pick up parts of it -- about 67% of today's budgetary mechanics are mandatory spending, medicare, medicaid, social security. in just four years, five years, it breaks through 75%, 76%. we're very quickly becoming a

country of mandatory spending and a schrenking army with no money for any other activity. and that's the reality. host: we're talking with congressman david schweikert, a member of the small business committee. he's from the phoenix -scottsdale area in arizona. what what did you do before you came to congress? guest: i was county commission treasurer. i oversaw parts of the tax system. and sort of financed and statistics really have always been sort of my background. host: elected originally in the fifth district, and after the changing of the lines in the last election, now representing the sixth district. guest: yeah, and loorks i'm incredibly blessed. when you get to represent scottsdale and phoenix and some of the outlying communities around there, i truly believe i have one of the most beautiful parts of the country.

host: we're taking your calls with the congressman. glen is up next from lancaster, california, on our line for independents. glen, good morning. guest: good morning. glen. caller: good morning. i'd like to bring something up to the congressman and our senators aren't really bringing up. what would happen if timothy geithner and jack lew would have been pumping $85 billion into social security instead of people taking it? how would our economy be now? for the last five years, our economy has been ruined. we've been bailing the banks out forever. let's bail the american citizens out and free the eople. guest: the mechanics would be a bit different than that. but if you actually go back to some of the writings from 50, 60 years ago, the discussions of what do you do with social security surpluses, you know, from the baby boomers? the idea was to build up the surplus, build up the surplus,

build up the surplus. where are those dollars conceptually going to go? they're going to go into your hydroelectric project or build a school or do this. but the money was actually originally going to be distributed all over the country, so you had also lots and lots of different sort of credit-worthy entities and local governments and ventures that would pay back when the baby boomers were in their retirement years. now we're heading into the retirement years of the baby boomers, and what sits in the social security account and the medicare accounts are i.o.u.'s from the federal government's general fund. and that's actually what makes the next 20-year cycle so difficult, because we have a demographic bubble. now, if we can get beyond that demographic bubble, which we're talking 40-some years, the future of the united states looks terrific. so there's actually one of my

great surprises. you don't see members sitting down, having discussions with the treasury secretary and others saying, are we willing to discuss a long-term debt instrument takes some of the u.s. sovereign debt and say we're going to borrow for 50 years, 60 years, 99 years, get beyond the demographic bubble? it's a little geeky, but there's a professor schiller from case schiller, you know, housing studies, who's come one an idea called a trill, selling equity interests in the economy because it's counter-cyclical when things are difficult or recession. the payout is less when things are good, they pay more. but time to dice up the debt accumulation of this country and realize we have to get beyond this demographic bubble or we're in real trouble. host: robert is up next from brooklyn, new york, on our line for republicans. robert, good morning. u're on with congressman

schweikert. caller: good morning. senator, you want to get the president to pass most favored nation for china. now it's happening because they need to get the pipeline from tehran to america. they're using this on a government to get the way to pass it. you know they pass for obamacare. that's what never changed about that. and number two, ben bernanke know that there's no inflation why we got to pay so much money on the debt. so the question is, are we going to make the government to get a pipeline from canada to america? host: i think the caller talking about the keystone x.l. pipeline, the pipeline from northwest canada. caller: yeah, and look, i appreciate the call. i appreciate knowing there's a republican in brooklyn.

i don't see that length annal of build the keystone pipeline, and my memory of what happened in 1995 wasn't most favored nation status with china, because if i remember correctly, president clinton actually supported that. but he hit on something that's actually very interesting, and i was playing with some math this morning on interest rates. my understanding for all u.s. sovereign right now are mean interest rates, and this is really important, though it's a ittle hard to digest, is 1.981%, so under 2%. if you and i stepped back to january 2000, the average interest rate was, i believe, 6.62%, so 3 1/3 times higher. you know what that means? it's the $237 billion we will pay out as a country in

interest this year would be in the mid $750 billion if we went back to more normal interest rates. we're incredibly lucky right now because of the low interest rates. but we need to deal with reality. interest rates will go back to normal at some time, and when they do, what happens when you're in a country where you're approaching a trillion dollars in just debt servicing every year? so we're going to spend trillion this year, but if we were in a normal interest rate environment, $750 billion of that would be interest. we have a debt crisis. we're bathing in it. we just have some extra around us that have allowed us to not have to deal with the pain. host: still some questions on that 16% shortfall in revenues that you were talking about earlier. vivien writes in, congressman

schweikert, how much would we have to raise taxes to cover the shortfall under your plan? guest: interesting question. in some of the models, when you start to raise taxes for that scale of a gap, you actually start to push the country back into recession. so you end up chasing your tail, so to speak, where when you start to raise certain types of marginal tax rates that have scale, you slow down the economy so much that you end up in sort of this ratcheting effect in a downward spiral. the much better proposal, and i think i should -- and i think they're going to roll it out, is a dramatic, dramatic change in the way we do taxes in this country. the ultimate solution here is to very simple things. fiscal discipline and economic growth. we know our current tax code suppresses that. it's time for revolution in our

tax code. host: you were talking earlier about you think the manufacturer of some of the concern about the debt, it's coming from the white house. what do you think -- what do you think happens next week if we pass that debt ceiling deadline? there's some concern going back to 2011 about how even approaching that deadline shook the markets. guest: yeah, and two things. and i hate to do something slightly anecdotal, but it's not only the white house, i sat down even last evening with a couple of reporters, and they're journalism majors, nothing personal, and tried to walk them through both math and the laddering of the cash flow, and we actually heard secretary lew a little while ago talk about we literally roll off $100 billion a week, so there's this constant roll, which you can ladder and pay, you know, your interest obligations with

current cash flows. of course i got to stare back, and when i finished walking them through a 16% gap, it's not default. moody's, everyone else who specializes in it says it's absurd we won't pay our interest. and after the conversation, they turn to me and says, so how do you feel about default? it's more than the white house and more than the treasury. host: even not defaulting under the definition we're talking about, but what about the shaking of the markets if we aren't able to pay some of the things in the 16%? guest: we built some charts going back to august 2011, and the equity markets were very cantankerous. debt markets, and you actually see this right now, where short term on the yield curve, take a look at, you know, paper you'd buy for repo, very short term one day, one week, right now. interest rates are up. on the long end of the curve,

two years, five years, 30 years, it's actually surprisingly stable. and we actually saw this, because we were serious about our debt issue, it actually made interest rates more stable out into the future, because if you're going buy a 30-year bond, you know, 30-year u.s. sovereign bond, you like to know you have a government that is concerned about being able to pay you in the future. so you actual have the this sort of sea-saw effect on the hearding of interest rates within the bond. oip i do have charts from august 2011 from the "new york times" about consumer confidence that dipped, going up to august 2011, the s&p 500 stock index dipping down, the v.i.x., volatility index, hitting -- guest: the v.i.x. but do you actually have the chrt which shows the sovereign

income? what you're holding there from the "new york times" is another good example how i believe the u.s. media basically empowers the some hillness coming out of the white house. they produce these wonderful charts, but avoid actually the counterpart of the argument of look what it did in the stability of long-term interest rates. look at the wild nature we had in equities. but think about this. we're actually arguing about our ability to pay our debt. you should be more focused on u.s. sovereign debt, not the equity market. host: back to the phones. valerie from georgetown, kentucky, on our line for democrats. valerie, good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. you're on with congressman schweikert. caller: yes. i have a question. while the shutdown is going on, people are being shut down, the government, the military, disability and all the different stuff. the congress and the senate, do they go without a paycheck?

do they understand how it feels to go without? guest: thank you for the call. look, i'm one of those members who has made it very clear, i will not take my salary during this time. and it's one of the things -- and we sort of touched on this a couple of moments ago, when about 67% of the national budget is on auto pilot through mandatory spending, and we have funded the military, you actually have, once again, -- and look, it's painful for a state like mine where the grand canyon is so important, tourism and other things in my state, i'm lived that the senate has been unwilling to take the pieces of legislation we've ent over and look at them. for many of us, we are not happy to have this government slowdown, but we're even more just bewildered that there

hasn't even been a discussion coming back and forth. and what's so shocking about this is the lack of sort of intellectual honesty. a couple of years ago, the liberal activists from my community lit up my phones say negotiate. where are those same phone calls demanding the senate and president actually step up and engage in how the constitutional process is designed and negotiate with those in the house who are just struggling to try to provide fairness? host: pam is up next from comfort, texas, on our line for independents. pam, good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i have some comments about the debt ceiling, and i see it like a credit card. when you reach the maximum of your credit card, you don't go get more credit cards, and you don't try and get it raised. you find ways to cut it back and get back into reality of spending and realize you spent too much. so i'm concerned that raising

our debt ceiling continually is only going to get us into more trouble. but i have a lot of other ways of thinking. i'm listening to all these people argue. the democrats are just saying, open the government, just open the government, people are suffering. well, sometimes we have to suffer until we can get our ourselves back online, meaning we have to do without. i'm going to feel this. and myself by november 1 if it's not up, but i'm willing to go that route if we can get back on track. so my comments, and i have a question, we have a lot of fog, we see it every day. we as citizens can do nothing out it, and there's a lot of fraud, food stamp fraud, medicare fraud. we need to concentrate on oversight committees and find the millions and billions of dollars that we can save from

the people who are actually stealing from the government in plain sight. host: congressman? gope sounds like comfort, texas, has some fairly rational thinkers. look, the government slowdown is not wonderful. it's uncomfortable. have been just stunned at how it's been actually covered in many aspects of the media. if you think about where the house position is, what we've been fighting for is, at least in our view, just basic fairness. special deals were handed out to big business. they were handed out to big labor. why not to the average citizen on just a one-year postponement? and for the first time, we're now seeing some cracks in sort of the left speaking class saying maybe the way the rollout in the new healthcare law is, maybe we should be providing more of that flexibility.

i wish we could have honest policy and honest discussions about where we are debt and spending-wise and where the debt curve explodes at the end of this. but it almost seems you can't bring anyone to the table to have these sorts of discussions until you have these sort of very uncomfortable inflexion points. and look, i know it's a little geeky, but it's actually not that hard of reading. this is the c.b.o.'s latest long-term forecast. from the west, you get to sit on airplanes six hours each way, you know, so you get a lot of reading time. and there's a section in here here literally we've doubled the speed. we get to 100% of debt from g.d.p. from last year to this year just because of the adjustments in our economic forecast, demonstrating we need to get off our fannies and do

something to start growing this economy, and so it's back to those discussions of tax code, regulatory code, the way we deal with trade, because the numbers in this are devastating. host: do you think some of those discussions might take place this afternoon when house g.o.p. leaders go over to the white house? guest: yeah, guest: that is my great hope. let's say you are a person of the left and you care deeply about the future of medicare. you've got a be honest, there is a math problem. it comes crashing down when we hit this explosion of debt. there is ways to fix that. we all know this. the president has talked about it in his state of the union address, that we need to deal with our long-term fiscal crisis coming could he says it beautifully in his speech and there is never ever follow up. maybe this meeting at the white house will start dealing with the big picture and i