policy institute that said that they're predicting about 900,000 jobs a year would be lost due to sequestration and budget uncertainty if we can't turn this around. to me that's not a pinprick. thank you. >> thank you. let me put in the record, and >> this is the government shutdown could be expensive for taxpayers. it says the answer might not be bha you expect. many experts estimate the shutdown will cost, not save, taxpayers and the bill could be steep. the last government shutdown in 1995-1996 cost $1.4 billion. that's more than $2 billion in 2013 dollars. that's just a short-term shutdown. that's not the default or the good faith and credit of the united states. that's not the lack of a long-term budget. this is a very serious situation. and my final question, because so much of the press has been focused about big cities, the

beltway, etc., etc.. first of all, the testimony that i read in preparation for this hearing tells a little different story. it's not just the pain in big cities in suburbs, but can you talk about rural areas? and what you're seeing from some of your folks? and i think there was a pretty rivetting testimony about a small little town in utah where they had, like, only 500 people in the town and they've already lost 60% of their revenues, the whole town. >> unfortunately that's an easy question to answer. yes, this, i guess, if you looked only at big cities you'd southeasternly see a lot of government losses and they are very real. a lot of people hurting. but in the tourism industry, most of the beautiful scenic areas in america are in rural areas. and the gateway cities to the national parks, national monuments and national recreation areas typically are built around these absolutely

fantastic scenic areas and there are many towns, and i will talk about out west that the point, but believe me, they extends all across the country, everywhere from michigan to north carolina to louisiana, but there are many small towns, very specifically, hurt by this. and the town you referred to, senator, was springville, utah. they are literally on the edge of zion national park. their entire business is, unless you're a retired californian who moved there, is the entrance to the national park and this national park was closed. if combrure wondering why the taxpayers are suffering from this, the taxpayers of utah, through the good leadership of our governor, governor herbert, have now donated $1.7 million or so to the federal government to open these national parks for 10

days. because it was recognized that many of these towns in southern utah have no other source of ncome. springdale, utah, right outside the grand canyon, you don't go there unless you're going to the grand canyon. and when they shut that road through there, which they did after a couple of days, we as a small tour company had to cancel four different tour programs for he best western there. that means that money will never be recovered by them. moab, utah, talked to maryanne delay. she did her own informal survey. they have 500 businesses in grand county, utah, that are tourism-related and those are all small businesses and she estimated in the first 10 days of this shutdown, they lost $10

million in revenue. these are small businesses. and -- >> small businesses and small towns, very focused, very foy focused. >> it goes on and on. there's plenty of them. >> thank you all. our time has come to an end. i really again appreciate the members. senator, do you want to just add -- >> i was just going to pick up on what he said about zion national park. because we have a small business in new hampshire called new hampshire gold which is a maple syrup company. they have four employers, they have their products in a store in the entrance to mount zion. they're very concerned about the lack of revenue because of the shutdown of the parks. >> shutting down new hampshire in october is pretty obviously a very, very difficult thing. >> but as everybody has pointed out, it's not just the immediate

effect, it's that ripple effect that goes across the economy that's really at stake here. >> your voices have been very important for the businesses you represent and very important sector of our economy. thank you very much forgiving your time and your effort and your thought. this record will remain open for two weeks. i'm hoping the government will be open in two weeks to receive this testimony and our committee will continue to work where we can. thank you and the meet something adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013]

>> day 15 of the government shutdown and this hearing wraps up the hearing on the small business committee and the senate wraps up here on c-span. we once again open up our phone lines to hear from you on the government shut dunne and the looming debt ceiling which is shet insurgent to take effect on thursday, the 17th. here's how to be part of the conversation. the phone numbers are 20 -585-3885 for republicans. democrats, it's 202-585-3886. and for independents and all others, 202-585-3887. here's where things stand on the house side, anyway. democratic members of the house, house democratic leaders, are at the white house at this hour in a meeting that reportedly got under way at about 3:15 eastern. if there are any comments after that meeting, we have cameras at the white house and we will bring those to you live if we are able. also very likely that a rules committee will be gaveled in this afternoon to consider the latest changes and the latest

offering from house republicans on a measure to fund the government and take care of the debt ceiling and also open the government, at least temporarily, and here's the reporting of "roll call" on the latest plan being offered reportedly by house republicans. this is in the 218 blog at rollcall.com. house republican leaders are floating yet another plan to reopen the government and avert default.

>> that's the reporting of "roll call" as of about 15 minutes ago. and senate leaders meanwhile had delayed their discussions on their plan for the debt ceiling and funding the government. we will look into news on that side of things while we take your calls. we'll go to valerie in redlands, california. valerie on the democrats line. go ahead. >> yes. you know, i am in the process of -- i just won, august 30, i just

won my s.s.i. disability case and it takes -- they tell me that it takes 45 days for it to get through the office of the judge and get the order typed up. then they send it to social security and that takes 60 days so i got 105 days to wait. filed april 12, 2012. now, the way that they've told me to count my time, every day that it's shut down, because the people that work in this judge's office, that type these reports, are nonessential employees and they're locked out of the building. so as long as this shutdown is going on, my thing is off. so as it stands now, the s.s.i. disability is going to fund two days after my 65th birthday. so i'm sitting here wondering, am i going to be, on january 15,

or 16, am i going to be slammed off disability and made wait for social security? i can't find any information out. but i'm going to tell you, i voted for president obama both times. i will for obamacare and not say anything against him or anyone that fights for it. it's being held hostage, something that should be done automatically. i think the people of the united states, the voters and the taxpayers, need to revolt. we need to figure out how to take them to court, to pay for this. even if he takes us to the brink and then has something signble and passable at midnight tonight. >> all right, paula on a an -- on our republican line. medford, oklahoma. >> hi. i'm currently on disability for i'm getting a

check november 1. i'm just on pins and needles myself. >> have you received any indication from the social security office? >> i haven't yet. but i'm just wondering if i'm going to get one. >> all right. paula. let's hear from our independent line. edwin, where are you calling from? you're on the air. go ahead. >> ok. i got two questions i want to ask you. the democrats want a clear bill, right? the republicans sign it and they give the democrats what they want. the democrats want a clear opening government bill. the other question i got is, obamacare -- why does the

president get to change it and nobody has got a thing to go against him because of the supreme court? >> let me tell where you things stand in terms of here we are 15 days into the government shutdown, two days from the end of the treasury's borrowing authority, the debt ceiling. the senate plan would fund the federal government through january 15. it would also extend the treasury borrowing authority into february. it would require the health care subsidy income verification, it would also set up further negotiations and so the difference is, part of the difference in the house republican plan, as reported, again, this is reporting that's coming out from "roll call" and other news organizations, they say that the he iteration of the plan would keep the government running until december 15 instead of january 15, as you're seeing in the senate plan that we showed you a moment ago. we're waiting to hear possibly from house democratic leaders,

rather. they're at the white house, meeting with president obama. it's also quite possible, likely, that a rules committee will be gaveled in today to consider republican legislation for funding the government and dealing with the debt ceiling. so we'll tell you about all that, as soon as we get information on it. rosenberg, texas. hello to wesley on our democrats line. >> yes. can you hear me? >> sure can. go ahead. >> yes. was wondering, just like on the affordable health care, why would anyone not want to see everybody in the united states of america with affordable health care? i mean, we really need that and i worked 41 years of my life, i'm retired, but everybody needs health care. and i don't know for the life of me why they would vote against affordable health care. >> ok. josh is in battle creek, michigan. he's on our republican line. good afternoon. >> hey, good afternoon.

i have a question. what about the v.a.? because i was told today by my fiduciary representative that my benefits are getsing caught and that he's on furlough. so what do i need to do as far -- it mustn, because be shutting off the veteran response. >> so you're saying the person you're dealing with you said is on furlough? >> right. he's my representative. because i'm a wounded combat veteran. what would be -- i mean, do you have any answer for -- as far as do you know if veterans are getting their money? >> i don't. does anybody else working in that office that you deal with? >> yeah. they said they're all on furlough. >> what about their websites? any help there? >> no. basically i'm waiting on a $45,000 check from the v.a. and

that's my livelihood. i have a car, i live with my parents. this government shutdown, is that affecting the v.a.? that's what i'm asking. >> i can't tell you straight out . before the government shoutdown, 15 days arks there might be after a couple of weeks might be some impact on v.a. and other services, other benefits, rather. but i can't tell you specifically about veterans' benefits. let's go to riverside, california. here's vince on the independent line. hi, vince. >> hi. how are you? >> fine, thanks. >> i just wanted to say that i think it was 348 was the decision that they passed to make it to where the senate -- got to decide whether or not the senate would take an issue -- vote on issue, was that 348? >> what? >> 348, wasn't it? the decision where they said, ok, the only person -- we don't

take a vote in the senate unless it's approved by this individual person. was that revolution 348? >> you may be right. >> ok. what i'm tryinging to say is that person should be -- they're talking impeachment. that's a person who should be impeached. this government she not supposed to not function. the president should -- if you say, ok, the senate wants to pass a resolution saying only this person can decide whether or not the senate takes a bill in, then that person needs to be held accountable. you need to put that person up for impeachment or john boehner, whoever that person is apointed, whoever's blocking the vote. because they're shutting down the government. and that is a strategy that should work. since the republicans have decided that this is how they're going to vote, they need to take accountability and if that person wants to be in that position, then that person needs to take accountability for the fact that they're not taking a vote. i think we need to work on an impeachment of that person. it was said earlier, if the

president would have invoked the 13th amendment, they would have probably tried to impeach him. so i think we need to impeach the person who is blocking the senate vote. >> let's go to the republican line. elizabeth, new jersey. brian, welcome. go ahead. >> our government is supposed to function and everybody that's in congress is supposed to get a vote. i agree with the last caller. the senate and the house are supposed to consider a bill and vote on it. and no one group or small group should be able to stop the government from functioning. this needs to change. millions of people in this country have fought and died to represent how the government works. and for the tea party to be able to shut the government down based on not -- willingness to do their job, and then try and blackmail the president, or the senate, into accepting their point of view is unacceptable and unamerican. it's not how we're supposed to

-- >> let's hear from hamberg, new york. judith, democrats line. go ahead. >> good afternoon. i'm calling because it really seems to me that it should be more simplified. that if you are an elected official, you are to do what the you want. , not what and it's really simple that you don't raise the debt ceiling, you're going deeper into debt. when i was raising my children, there were things we could not afford. the same here. do not send money to countries where you are gang raping women to win a war. do not support the type of behaviors that is reprehensible and take care of the people here in the united states. thank you. >> thank you, judith. more of your calls and comments coming up. again, we're waiting to hear from possible comments from house democratic leaders. they're at the white house and have been in a meeting reportedly with president obama for about an hour now. we'll have comments live if

we're able. also possible this afternoon, a meeting of the rules committee in the house to consider the latest republican proposal, no word, no specific word yet and we'll get that to you as soon as we can. tweet here from scott. >> the senate in particular has been holding a number of hearings over the past two weeks, looking at the impact of the shutdown across the government. last week they heard from treasury secretary jack blue who talked specifically about possible outcomes, possible results of ending the borrowing authority or hitting that debt ceiling on thursday, the 17th. here's particulate of his owning statement and what he had -- here's part of his opening statement and what he had to say. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate the invitation to

appear and discuss the potential impacts of a failure of our congress to increase the debt limit. congress has an important choice to make for the american people. and congress alone has the power to act to make sure that the full faith and credit of the united states is never called into question. congress in 224 years of american history has allowed our country to default and it's my sincere hope that this congress will not be the first. among the risks that we control, the biggest threat is sustain -- to sustaining growth in our economy is the occurrence of manufactured crises in washington and self-inflicted wounds. in addition to the economic cost of the shutdown, the uncertainty around raising the debt limit is beginning to stress financial markets.

the interest rate nearly tripled relative to the prior week's auction and it reached the highest level since october, 008. and measures of expected volatility in the stock market have risen to the highest levels of the year. the only way to avoid inflicting further damage to our economy is for congress to act. i know from my conversations with a wide range of business leaders, representing industries from retail to manufacturing and banking, that this is a paramount concern for them. that's why it's important for congress to reopen the government, to raise the debt ceiling and then to work with the president to address our fiscal challenges. in bald fashion. republican and democratic presidents and treasury secretaries alike have universally understood the importance of protecting one of our most precious assets, the full faith and credit of the united states. president reagan wrote to congress in 1983 and i quote, this country now possesses the

strongest credit in the world. the full consequences of a default or even the serious prospect of default by the united states are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. denigration of the full faith and credit of the united states would have substantial affects on the domestic financial markets and in the value of the dollar in exchange markets. closed quote. if congress fails to meet its responsibility, it could deeply damage financial markets, the ongoing economic recovery and the jobs and savings of millions of americans. i have a responsibility to be trf transparent with congress and the -- transparent -- transparent with congress and the american people about these risks and i think it would be a grave mistake to kiss discount or dismiss them. for that reason i have repeatedly urged congress to take action immediately so we can honor all of our country's past commitments. the treasury department has regularly updated congress as

new information has become available about when we would exhaust our extraordinary measures. in addition, treasury has provided information about what our cash balances will be, when we exhaust our extraordinary measures. as our forecasts have changed, i have consistently provided updates in order to give congress the best information about the urgency with which they should act. and last month i met with the full membership of this committee to discuss these issues. treasury continues to project that the extraordinary measures will be exhausted no later than october 17, 2013. at which point the federal government will have run out of borrowing authority. at that point we will be left to meet our country's commitments with only the cash on hand and any incoming revenues. placing our economy in a dangerous position. if we have insufficient cash on hand, it would be impossible for the united states of america to meet all of its obligations, including social security and medicare benefits, payments to our military and veterans, and

contracts with private suppliers . >> live to the white house to hear from democratic leaders. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> -- having a conversation with the president about the looming deadline. we're still optimistic that there is a path to lift the debt ceiling in time. we're pleased with the work done thus far but we've heard of the bipartisan legislation being prepared in the united states senate. we're disappointed that the house republicans decided to sabotage or at least delay what was happening there. but are hopeful that everybody knows the time is of the essence and that if the republicans in a bill e want to put up she should do it soon -- they should do it soon. they have to know that they'll have to do that with 100% republican votes. we stand ready, our members have signed letters, petitions, to

open government, that we are there for a clean petition to open government, a clean legislation to open government, clean legislation to lift the debt ceiling that will take us on a path to the budget table when any and all issues can be discussed. so that's where we are and i'm optimistic. i believe because the impact of not lifting the debt ceiling on top of shut downing -- alone, actually, not lifting the debt ceiling, is so catastrophic that there will be those in the republican party who will see the light. we stand ready to supply the votes but if they do not, if they go on the path they're on, they'll need 100% republican votes. with that i'm pleased to yield to the distinguished whip, mr. hoyer. >> thank you, madam leader. i agree with the leader that this was a very positive meeting, as we expected it to be. the president is very committed to getting the government open. obviously making sure that america pays its bills.

and we assured the president that those two objectives have overwhelming, almost unanimous, if not unanimous, support of our caucus. we have a letter that is signed on the debt limit and we're going to be unanimous on the opening up government. that's our two major objectives. now have 48 hours to make sure that our country remains solvent and paying its debt and to make sure that our workers get back to work on behalf of the american people. i agree with the leader that if the republican conference wants to offer, we haven't seen text yet, but it has other things in it, one of which we think is very, very damaging to the united states of america and that is taking away from the president and the secretary of treasury the ability to manage the payment of our debt so that we remain a zero-risk creditor. so with that let me yield to my

friend, jim clyburn, the assistant leader. >> thank you, mr. whip. the last hour has been very, very productive and i would hope that the next several hours would be as such. i find it kind of interesting that much of the discussion we've been hearing for the last several weeks has been the fact that we can maintain the full faith and credit of the united states of america by we ritizing exactly how address the debt. sudden, from what we're hear whatting, legislative -- hearing, legislation is now being brought forward to take away the ability of the president and the secretary of the treasury to manage our debt and deficits.

that to us is just absolutely the worst possible thing that can be done. we are very interested in a clean continuing resolution, a clean debt limit, and we can supply a vast majority of the democratic votes to get that done. we are hopeful that the speaker will allow such legislation to come to the floor and we commit to him and the american people the democrats will be solid in support of that effort. with that i yield back. >> house republicans are talking bout consolidating to what's known as the bitter amendment and including staff in that as well. something that a lot of -- [inaudible] is this your statement about not having any democratic votes, does that stand if they shrink their

demand to that amendment, taking it with the health benefits of members, lawmakers and staff? >> let me just take a crack at that. let me reiterate. we're 48 hours, this is the 15th day of a shutdown. where government workers have been precluded from serving those who are trying to get veterans benefits, those who want to get on social security, those who want to go into our parks. we are two days from -- according to the secretary of the treasury, not being able to manage our debt and stay a zero-risk nation. the extraneous things that the republicans are talking about do not serve our nation and what the leader and i are saying is our members are prepared to cooperate fully in getting those two things done. then we can talk about other things. but we need to move on those and

we need to move on them now and we're hopeful that the speaker, we're very pleased with what's happened in the senate. the senate's been working together in a bipartisan way to try to get to an agreement. i'm sorry that that bill hasn't been sent over to us. but there will be time to talk about other matters once we we get the government open and pay our bills. >> how confident are you that you can keep your democrats together? that you won't lose any democrats supporting the g.o.p. proposal in the house as it stands now? we feel pretty confident. let me just say why. this full faith and credit, for any -- take any one of the proposals they have and they've ad a whole assortment of proposals that they why is a -- they would say the full faith and credit of the united states of america is less than our doing a cheap shot amendment, for example, on the bill. but here it is, the whole world is watching. this is of global consequence. can have catastrophic effects.

we are the united states of america. . the biggest economy in the world. and we want to have our interest, our credit rating downgraded. we want to pay more for our -- the money that we need to borrow in order to conduct the government. we have engaged these expenses, we have to honor the commitment to pay for them. if you don't appreciate the global and national consequences of it, and the board room table or the international -- the global table, it doesn't resonate with you, just think of america's kitchen table. kitchen tables. kitchen tables where people are now going to pay more for their interest on loans, for student loans, their mortgage, their car payment, their credit card bills. if they're small business owners they're going to pay more interest on their business loans. so your interest will go up and your 401-k will go down. anybody here have a 401-k? do you check it from time to

time? this is what is at stake here and how it directly affects people over and above the bigger picture. so our members understand that we're here to do something big and consequential for our country. already we have had an opportunity, cost of time when we should be doing bills to create jobs as our budget does. that's why here eager to go to the budget table. that's why the senate bill that says, lift the debt ceiling, open government and go to the budget table, appeals to us. i have to say, i would rather have a senate bill or our bill that would say we're going to extend the debt ceiling for a year. i think just a few months isn't long enough. but nonetheless, that's what a compromise is about. that's where their comfort level is. we accept that and we will have strong, strong democratic support. and i'll say it again, if the president -- if the speaker thinks that he is going to put all these extraneous matters to question the full faith and

credit of the united states of america, he's going to have to have his own vote to do it. >> the senate conversations have ground to a haufment there isn't any more work on the senate bill. they're waiting for the house to do legislation. that's got to be on the floor tonight. and what you're saying is, you don't see -- [inaudible] why are you therefore optimistic that it's going to get resolved in the next 48 hours? >> the only thing i would say in response to that is the only bipartisan conversations that we're going on with the united states senate, between republicans and democrats, vow to ask yourself, why did they stall? and they stalled because of this deliberate effort in the house, started by the tea party caucus, and once again speaker boehner has allowed that part of his caucus to run the show. so, what we need is whatever happens to this legislation, which is not bipartisan, they need to get back to the table, the united states senate, and

work out an agreement. and i would just say with respect to some of these extraneous provisions, we've always said we're prepared to make adjustments in the affordable care act, we're happy to discuss any of the issues that are in the republican budget, and the democratic budget. at the budget negotiating table, where we've been trying to go since last march, and have been blocked. but what we're not prepared to do is accept these unrelated extraneous measures under the threat of continuing government shutdown and under the threat of not paying our bills on time. i would just lastly say, imagine if the president of the united states, who we just had the privilege of meeting with, said to the house republicans that he was going to veto the debt ceiling bill. that he was going to refuse to pay the nation's bills on time unless the house republicans adopted his budget or adopted his jobs plan. you all know they would say the president had lost his mind. but that's exactly what house republicans are continuing to

try to do, even as the clock ticks down toward default. >> [inaudible] >> because i believe and what we're all saying is that in the united states senate reason will prevail once they recognize that the house republican proposal is not going to go anywhere at the end of the day. >> if i may on that subject. i do believe that there are two possibilities here. one, it passes, goes to the senate and then they send something back. or it doesn't pass. i don't think -- i think it's a little frivolous, more than frivolous, reckless, to put a bill on the floor like that when the markets are watching what's happening here. but nonetheless maybe the -- let eeds to have them sew their oats or whatever the expression happens to be, and once they've had that opportunity, then sanity will prevail. and then, then perhaps we can take up the senate bill right

away and send that over or the senate can act and send it back. but he has to give his folks one last chance to resist. that's unfortunate because the time is ticking and it takes a while to gear up the full faith and credit -- you know, to continue the full faith and credit as well as to restore confidence that may be ebbing because the clock is ticking. >> [inaudible] >> can you explain the urgency, given the fact that some republicans suggested this is an artificial deadline? what should americans be bracing for when they wake up on october 17? they may not witness changes overnight. >> please. i mean, we're talking about something so catastrophic, already the rating agencies are saying what will happen to our credit rating. if you are a businessman, perhaps you are a small businessman, and under the affordable care act you can be self-employed, and -- or have --

start your own business and the rest, but in any event, would you decide to have your lender charge you more interest? that would be stupid. this would be stupid. i don't believe -- and why have confidence is i just have a little more confidence in my colleagues that they would understand that this is a -- you can shut down government and that's a bad thing and you can for 15 days as it has been and that's a bad thing. but you undermine the full faith and credit of the united states of america, that's a very hard thing to get back. and so it does have major consequences and, and you see what happened to the market when they reneged on tarp. it went down 775 points and that one, just as the republicans were not voting for it. so again, it's sanity. i have confidence and i'm optimistic because i believe that at the end of the day they

will do the right thing, even if they have to have -- do contortions to get to that place. that's unfortunate because it doesn't inspire confidence but if that's how they have to get there, that's a path. >> did the president ask you to do anything specific, or for any specific strategy that you would buy into and did the issue of postponing the medical device tax come up? >> i'm not likely to have a conversation dish mean, unless you promise not to tell anyone, about what transpired in the president's -- in the oval office. but some of my colleagues may have something they want to say out -- >> no. not on that question. >> i want to say that we're very proud of our leadership. i hope you saw them all on tv on saturday with that line of people going in there to sign the petition to open government, which was historic and the signatures that we have on letters to have a clean lifting

of the debt ceiling, we have a very unified caucus thanks to our leadership, including, you heard from mr. clyburn and mr. van hollen, the chair of our caucus, mr. becerra, vice chair joe crowley behind me here, and dccc, mr. our israel, from a number of new yorkers here, a number of californians, a number of marylanders. in any event, we're proud of our caucus and we're proud of our president. but he has said no negotiations on the full faith and credit of the united states of america. let's go to the budget take to negotiate the rest. -- table to negotiate the rest. >> it sounds like in the end you're trusting john bain already do the right thing and put -- boehner will in your mind do the right thing and put a clean c.r. on the floor. you're trusting john boehner to not let the country default. >> i don't know what the sequencing of it but yes. i don't know what the order will be, but yes.

>> do you think there will be a vote tonight to reopen the government and avoid default? >> the bill that they're talking about right now is a bill to default. make no mistake. the bill that the republicans are putting on the floor today is a decision to default. now, once they go over that, then we'll see what they send to the floor. thank you all. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> democratic house leaders presumably heading back to capitol hill and to the house and a session which seems likely this evening to consider republican legislation to reopen government and deal with the impending debt ceiling in a fast-moving story this afternoon. the democratic leaders have been at the white house for about an hour or so, meeting with president obama. here's the latest from the associated press. breaking boehner spokesman, house to vote on tuesday night, tonight, to reopen the government and to avoid default. also want to tell you that the rules committee will be meeting

at 5:40 eastern. we anticipate having live coverage for you here on c-span. we'll keep you posted on that. understand that is at 5:40 eastern on capitol hill and here's why. that's because republicans on the -- in the house, republican leader, has developed a plan they will bring to the rules committee this afternoon. here's the hed line from "politico." house g.o.p. leaders scramble to pass plan. we'll read you a little bit from "politico" about what is being reported bond.

>> we have a rules committee set for 5:40 eastern. we anticipate live coverage and that means the house will be coming back sometime this evening. we certainly will have live coverage of that here on c-span. we'll also continue taking your calls on the government shutdown and the debt ceiling. 202-585-3885 for republicans, 86 democrats it's 202-585-38

and for all others, 202-585-3887. and we welcome your tweets as well. #c-spanchat. here's milton, iowa. james is on the democrats line. >> hello. >> how are you? >> pretty good so far. i guess. if you want to call it good. me and my wife are both wounded disabled and we were just wondering about this president, we voted for him. don't get me wrong. but i think it's more less due to politics and power and the money situation. i think all we are doing is putting everything toward the american people. the american people, as i understand it, when i was a kid growing up, was it was for the people, by the people. not one sided, not two sided. it was both sides sitting at the tables and negotiating on things instead of putting everything, you know, for everybody else. we shouldn't be overseas right now, fighting. all of our troops should be

home. we're spending more money on shells, bullets, and rebuilding over there. they don't rebuild -- they come over here to our country and de industry toed, 9/11, took our buildings,er to them down and we didn't get help from them. but we're overseas rebuilding what we tore up over there. that's not right. we should be taking care of our own backyard. >> let's go to wells, vermont, joseph on the independents line. >> yes, good afternoon. >> hi, there. >> first of all, my comments come as a vietnam-era veteran in the united states navy to please bear me out. the debt ceiling fiasco really, when you think about it, is a full-flag event. the dueling rich elite are the ones who by virtue of earning the means of production have the most to gain from a shutdown threat. imagine what wall street is going to do the day after the debt ceiling is raised. it's going to blow the top of the lid off of itself.

so -- does the little guy make any money because of this? of course not. but the major rich stockholders, you bet, they're going to make millions. think about this. after world war ii, what did we do with the immense war debt we had? we round up spending -- wound up spending money from the government to put forward the g.i. bill. what did that do? it produced a class of people and an explosion in the economy greater than anything we had seen prior to. finally, if the republicans and democrats and the president really believed in the tactics that they are taking to help the american people out, then they should have come out first and said, i'm going to refuse my salary and my benefits for the duration of this full-flag event. thank you very much. >> fort polk, louisiana, on our republican line. good afternoon. >> good afternoon. my comment is because you i don't understand why obama is still the president of the

united states, considering he's not an american, he's spending all this money over to the muslims that could be helping the american people. any other president would have been impeached by now. for doing what he's doing to the american people. >> barbara said earlier, it is your belief that he's not an american. >> no, i don't believe he. is i believe he's a muslim. >> let's go to wayne in sioux fals, south dakota. democrats line. >> my comment is, he is an american. he was born in this country. and a lot of muslims were. they're still americans. i'm a vietnam era vet as well. and these people in congress need to be arrested. they are not doing their job and they talk about nonessential, they're checks are nonessential and they should be arrested for

not doing their job. and the president cannot deal with al qaeda, which is what the tea party is, and they need to be arrested. thank you very much. >> all right, wayne, the headline from the washington wire d early area today, the washington headline, the g.o.p. scales back its health care demands. the latest -- the latest iteration of house republican plan would have them eliminating the health insurance employer suns disfor members of congress, the president, members of congress and the staff, the president, vice president and cabinet. the so-called bitter amendment. we're going to play comments from david vetter -- visiter in just a moment from the senate floor. here's his tweet from a few hours ago. he said the g.o.p. plan kills obamacare subsidies for lawmakers. white house officials, he's retweeting from "the daily caller there." camille from arkansas on our other line. hi, jack. >> hi, jack. that's me.

i'm ashamed i'm a republican and every republican ought to be calling their representative and reminding them that we voted in obama, which was obamacare, at the time. if there were some way to impeach him, easily, it would be wonderful. it's a terroristic act. if any other country put our government in the arears and what's going to happen with the debt ceiling, as far as military people having to be cut back and disabled vets, i'm an old recon marine from vietnam and what we can do is we can call our representative, house of representatives, and tell them this is their last term. we never agreed to their tea party ideas. they are represented by the people, for the people, and of

the people. and i thank you and appreciate you being really nonpartisan. man, i wouldn't want to have your job. semper fi. thank you, sir. >> thank you. checking tweets. here's one from independent jim who says that -- >> i'm not sure what jim means necessarily, but just want to remind you, we don't get any government funding. we are funded entirely by the cable industry, jim. >> headline here this afternoon from bloomberg news. senate talks on impasse on hold. as house considers plan. they at least temporarily interrupted their talks midday

over on the senate side of things. one element we are hearing that will be in the house plan is the so-called vitter amendment dealing with health care subsidies. senator david vitter of louisiana was talking about that earlier today on the floor. >> i've pushed this issue ever since we got back from the august recess. as you know, madam president, right as we went into that august recess, the obama administration issued a rule, an illegal rule in my opinion, without statutory authority, contrary to the obamacare statute, that gives members of congress and congressional staff special status, a special exemption or special subsidy, if you will, not in the law. and one not enjoyed in that way by any other american. and this no washington exemption language which i've been an advocate of with many others here in the senate, with many

house colleagues, would end that special elite status. and that's what we need to do. madam president, i think we need to do it for two crucial reasons. first of all, just on principle. i think it should be the first rule of our democracy. that washington is treated like the rest of america. and what's good for america and what congress and the administration, what washington passes on to america, it lives with itself, with no special status, no special rules, no special exemption or subsidy. that should be true across the board. it should certainly be true regarding obamacare. that should be the first resume of american democracy. but washington doesn't want that, madam president. to impose these new rules on the rest of america, it doesn't want to live by them itself. sort of like when you walk into

a restaurant and hear that the chef never, ever eats at that restaurant. never, ever has a meal out of that kitchen. makes you wonder. well, the same thing is true here on a number of fronts, including obamacare. so the first point is a pure principle, madam president. washington should live under the same rules as it imposes on america, across the board, including under obamacare. and so washington, congress, all congressional staff, the president, the vice president, their political appointees should have to go to the same fallback option under obamacare as is there for all america, the so-called exchanges, and it should do that with no special rules or special deal or special subsidy or special exemption. it should do that the same way

ordinary americans do who in many cases, eight million-plus, are forced out of good health care coverage they have now through their employment and forced on to the obamacare exchanges. the second reason, madam president, i think this language is so important, is a very practical one. because, madam president, the sooner we make washington live by those same obamacare rules as the rest of america, the quicker washington will change obamacare in substantial ways, will fix it not just for washington, as it did through the special, illegal obama administration rule on this subject, but for america. we need to align policymakers' personal interests in washington along with the interests of the american people. and the way you do that is make them live by exactly the same

rules, make them walk the walk of those americans who have to go to the obamacare exchanges, in many cases against their will. eight million-plus who are satisfied with the health coverage they had prior to obamacare and then who realized that under this law that promise by president obama, if you like the health care coverage you have now you can keep it, realize the hard way that that promise was a lie. so there are two crucial reasons we must pass this language into law. first, the principle. second, the practicality. first, the principle that washington should live under the same rules, the same way as america. second, the practicality that we need to visit upon washington all of the burdens and challenges that face america under obamacare, including those eight million-plus americans

going to the exchanges against their will. so, again, madam president, i encourage the house to include this no-washington-exemption language in any compromise they put together with regard to these issues, fiscal issues we're dealing with now. i think that would be enormously important, i think it would show leadership, i think it wills remain nagse nate with the american people -- it will resonate with the american people. the american people get this issue and they resent rightly so washington getting a special exemption or a special subsidy under obamacare that no other american in that situation gets. so, again, madam president, i urge the house to act on that important language. that would show leadership, that would align our personal interests with the folks we represent. that would honor what should be the first principle of american

democracy, washington lives under the same rules as the rest of america, on obamacare, on everything else. thank you, madam president, i yield the floor and suggest the absence of a quorum. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> senator david vitter, louisiana, earlier today on the senate floor. and it does look like the house will take up that vitter amendment language that would eliminate the health insurance employer subsidy for members of vice ss, their staff, the president, president and cabinet. that's apparently a part of an emerging plan on the house side, emerging republican plan, house rules committee will be meeting this afternoon at 5:40 eastern to consider the rule for debate for that measure. and that would likely lead to a house session tonight. in fact, the news is that john boehner will vote, has said the house will vote on that this evening. here's just a quick look, too, at where things stand in terms of that house proposal. this is the reporting of "roll call." ey say that according to

california, -- >> it would also extend the debt ceiling through february 7. here's how that compares with the latest on the senate plan. the senate plan likewise would carry the government -- the debt ceiling through february 7, but the senate plan would keep the government open through january 15. it would extend borrowing, again, into february, through february 7. it would also deal with income verification, requiring income verification for those health care law subsidies and it would set up a timetable for further negotiations on a longer term budget arrangement between the house and senate for funding the

federal government through fiscal year 2014. we're going to continue to take your calls and hear from you on the government shutdown and the debt ceiling. gwen is in maryland. let's give you the numbers again. 202-585-3885 for republicans. for democrat, 202-585-3886. and for independents and others, 202-585-3887. hello to gwen on our democrats line. >> hello. how are you this afternoon? >> fine. >> i was just calling, i'm a little disturbed and i just want to let the people know who are calling in that really most of them don't know what they're talking about. not that i'm so versed on what's going on, but the problem i have, and it's not what -- with you or the station, but people make these comments from out of nowhere and other people are hearing it and they're just taking the nonsense on and on and on.

i just want to let them know that there is a god in heaven who sits high and he's looking over what's being done. and thank you for taking my call. >> appreciate your call. john is in philadelphia. he's on our republican line. go ahead. >> i just want to say that i insist that john boehner and his republican ways, he thinks he's ruling the country and this guy just cuts obama off and it's sickening the way he's treating the american people. this shutdown is killing people. >> to our others line, chaplain hill, tennessee. go ahead. caller: am i on? >> you are. caller: i think whenever congress shut down the pay for the government, the pay for the congress should have been shut down too, close their bank

accounts and seal them. that way they know what the rest of the people are feeling like. the debt they're talking about, $17 trillion, about $8.5 trillion was from wall street when they went down in bush administration. another few trillion went to the wars. president obama is trying to get us out of the hole that the republicans dug. when clinton left office, he left about $20 billion, $25 billion surplus in there. and the wain boehner is running things, i can't use the words on air to explain about him and the tea party. they signed a death warrant for the republicans. and paul lee and cruz and boehner, they're some of the worst people i've ever seen. >> we're looking at video from earlier today. these are republican leaders, obviously, after their meeting this morning. their conference meeting this morning. a time which the membership had not fully developed the plan that has evolved here mid afternoon and reporting on that. this is "the hill." the headline --

>> chattanooga, tennessee, republican line. this is veronica. caller:. i was calling about the health care. right now i'm drawing unemployment. $173 a week. and my house payment is $535 a month. by the time i pay utilities, i have no money left for health care. what do i do? if i get fined, how do i pay

that? how does poor people live now? >> so in tennessee, have they -- has the health exchange been set up in the state there? >> i'm in georgia. i'm in georgia. >> you're in georgia. what will about in georgia, is there an exchange set up there? caller: nothing that i know of. nothing at all. i'm thinking, how am i going to live? i'm like millions of other people. unemployment doesn't last forever. there's no jobs. we should all be treated fair. nobody should have better insurance than anybody else. we all have health -- you know, i have diabetes. other members of my family are sick. you know, we need help, too, us poor people. >> veronica, does your inemployment payment came once a week? caller: yes. >> has that been affected by the shutdown at all? caller: no. i was running like a day late like once before.

my payment this month will be $29. i don't know if i get the refund or not. how am i going to get health care? i can't go to the doctor now, i have no health insurance, because i lost my job. >> all right. let's hear from valdosta, georgia, next up is donna on our democrats' line. caller: yes, hello. i wanted to say about david vitter, i heard him on the floor many times with that speech and they've been getting subsidies all along. what was the problem then? and all big companies do this. the government is looked -- they're working for the government, they get a subsidy. you know, there's nothing illegal about that. and then he talked about illegal, you know. it's just, i don't know. it's amazing. thank you. >> thank you. here's spring, texas, michael, hello, go ahead, he's on our others line. caller: yes, i was calling to comment on something that i really haven't heard spoken

about on the air here. the one gentleman the other day vaguely breached the subject when he spoke of is a -- sadition. these guys that have shut down the government, in my opinion, and from what i read on the subject are guilty of treason. they should be treated like traitors and they should be punished as such. >> all right. michael, just a reminder, the -- the rules committee of the house is set to come in in about 35 minutes to consider the rule for debate to consider the rule for debate for this measure that house republican leaders are proposing to open the government and to deal with the impending debt ceiling which would extend it through february 7. larry is in memphis, tennessee, on our democrats' line. go ahead. caller: good afternoon. >> good afternoon. caller: i want to say these republicans, they claim to be so worried about the debt and the deficit, but when they had

the -- reagan ran a deficit. bush i ran a deficit. george w. bush ran a record deficit. when george w. bush was in office, they said deficits didn't even matter. they said all households run deficits. they weren't concerned about deficits. all of a sudden they were so concerned about deficits. what these people are doing, terrorizing this country. we should arrest them for what they're doing. they're worse than al qaeda, any other terrorists. the war in iraq, and now they're terrorizing the country with this. it doesn't make no sense at all. we should arrest every one of them. thank you. >> the ##cspanchat. this one says --

>> representative womack of arkansas, "to take something to mid december and to do this all over again just plays with the psyche of the american public." that's the comments of representative womack of arkansas. he's talking about mid december would be the date under the republican legislation. that's the december 15 date. their measure would fund the government through december 15. couple more calls here. tracy is in haleyville, alabama. hi. caller: hi. i have a question. i got s.s.i. check, that's how i pay my bills. if the government don't start back up, we don't get our checks, how are we supposed to pay our rent and stuff? ere's going to be a bunch of homeless people around. that's what everybody depends on. >> all right, tracy. indianapolis, you get the last word for the time being. tony is in indiana there on our others line. caller: hi, thanks for taking

my call. >> sure. caller: first off, i want to say i am a vietnam vet also. i heard a lot of vietnam vets on today. i'm a purple heart winner, silver star winner, former p.o.w. and right now i'm a proud member of the tea party. second thing i want to bring up , i was watching the press today with -- >> jay carney. caller: and one of the ladies in the audience, one of the reporters started bringing up the rates issue. and my thing, i'm biracial. i get so tired we have the first black president. he's the first biracial president. he turned his back on his people, biracial people like me. if you want to talk about racism, the blacks treat us like dirt. now all of a sudden since we have a biracial president he's

the greatest thing in the world. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you, tony. in half an hour we expect the house rules committee to gavel in to consider the rules for debate to reopen the government and extend the debt ceiling, a plan that would reopen the government through december 15, extending the debt ceiling through february 7. again, house rules, we will have that live for you here on c-span with later house coverage here on c-span as well. next up, though, the comments of treasury secretary jack lew from last week. he testified before senate committee on the impact of possible -- the possible affect affect - the possible of not raising the debt ceiling. >> thank you, members of the committee. i appreciate the opportunity to appear hire today and the invitation to talk about the possible impacts of the failure of congress to increase the debt ceiling. congress has an important choice to make for the american people, and congress alone has

the power to act to make sure that the full faith and credit of the united states is never called into question. no congress has allowed the debt to default. the biggest threat to sustain growth in our economy a recurrence of manufactured crises in washington and self-inflicted woubds. unfortunately, today we face a manufactured political crisis that is beginning to deliver an unnecessary blow to our economy right at a time when the united states economy, the american people have painstakingly fought back from the worst recession since the great depression. in addition to the economic costs of the shutdown, the uncertainty around raising the debt limit is beginning to stress financial markets. in our auction, a four-week freshry bills on tuesday, it nearly tripled relative to the prior week's auction and reached the highest level since

october, 2008. in measures expected volatility in the stock market have risen to the highest levels of the year. the only way to avoid inflicting further damage to our economy is for congress to act. i note from my conversations with a wide range of business leaders, representing industries from retail to manufacturing and banking, that this is a paramount concern for them. that's why it's important for congress to reopen the government, to raise the debt ceiling and then to work with the wpt to address our fiscal challenges in a balanced fashion. republican and democratic presidents and treasury secretaries alike have universally understood the importance of protecting one of our most precious assets, the full faith and credit of the united states. president reagan wrote to congress in 1983, and i quote, "this country now possesses the strongest credit in the world. the full consequences of a default or even the serious prospect of default by the united states are impossible to

predict and awesome to contemplate. denegation of the full faith and credit of the united states would have substantial affects on the financial markets and on the value of the dollar in exchange markets." if congress fails to meet its responsibility, it could deeply damage financial markets, the ongoing economic recovery and the jobs and savings of millions of americans. i have a responsibility to be transparent with congress and the american people about these risks. and i think it would be a grave mistake to discount or dismiss them. for these prns i have repeatedly urged congress to take action immediately so we can honor all of our country's past commitments. the treasury department is regularly update -- has regularly updated congress over the course of the last five months as new information has become available about when we would exhaust our extraordinary measures. in addition, treasury has provided information about what our cash balances will be when

we exhaust our extraordinary measures. as our forecasts have changed, i've consistently provided updates and gave congress the best information about the urgency with which they should act. and last month i met with the full membership of this committee to discuss these issues. treasury continues to project that the extraordinary measures will be exhausted no later than october 17, 2013. at which point the federal government will have run out of borrowing authority. at that point, we will be left to meet our country's commitments with only the cash on hand and any incoming revenues, placing our economy in a dangerous position. if if we have insufficient cash on hand, it would be impossible for the united states of america to meet all of its obligations, including social security and medicare benefits, payments to our military and veterans and contracts with private suppliers. for the first time in our history.

at the same time we're relying on investors from all over the world to continue to hold u.s. bonds. every week we roll over approximately $100 billion in u.s. bills. if u.s. bondholders decided they wanted to be repaid rather than continuing to roll over their investments, we could unexpectedly dissipate our entire cash balance. let me be clear. trying to time a debt limit increase to the last minute could be very dangerous. if congress does not act and the united states suddenly cannot pay its bills, the repercussions would be serious. raising the debt limit is congress' responsibility because congress and congress alone is empowered to set the maximum amount the government can borrow to meet its financial obligations. some in congress have suggested that raising the debt limit should be paired with accompanying spending cuts and reforms. i have repeatedly noted that the debt limit has nothing to do with new spending. it has to do with spending that congress has already approved and bills that have already been incurred. failing to raise the debt limit would not make these bills disappear. the president remains willing

to negotiate over the future direction of fiscal policy. but he will not negotiate over whether the united states should pay its bills. certain members of the house and senate also believe that it's possible to protect our economy by simply paying only the interest on our debts while stopping or delaying payments on a number of our other legal commitments. how can the united states choose whether to send social security checks to seniors or pay benefits to veterans? how account united states choose whether to provide children with food assistance or meet our obligations to medicare broe advisers? the united states -- providers? the united states should not make such perilous choices for our economy and our citizens. there's no way of knowing the irrevocable damage such an approach would have an our economy and our financial markets. pleereds have a responsibility to make our economy stronger, not to create manufactured crises that inflict damage. 1987, president reagan addressing a debt limit impasse delivered a message that's applicable to us today.

this bringsmanship threatens those of the holders of government bonds, interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets and the financial deficit would soar. the united states has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. the very last thing the u.s. economy needs now is a fight over whether we raise the debt limit, not when we face challenges both domestically and internationally that requires our full attention and not when we know the kind of damage in a such a financial crisis could cause. thank you and i look forward to age your questions. -- answering your questions. >> thank you, mr. secretary. i'd like to focus a little bit on a concept that some suggest as a way out of this problem and which some suggest is feasible. and i disagree. it's called prioritization. you touched on it. could you just briefly tell us what decisions you'd have to

make as treasury secretary, assuming interest was paid on the debt and you then had to choose which other obligations had to be paid? i know you can't tell us which ones nor should you tell us, social security, medicare, military, farm program, what not, but if you could just go through the process and scribe what the actual legal and administrative problems would be -- consequences would be, how much toll that would be? my understanding it's about 70% to 80% of the those programs could be paid, if at all paid, and also what affect it would have on our gross domestic product. walk us through prioritization difficulties, please. >> mr. chairman, let me start by saying what i think should be obvious, that if we don't have enough cash to pay all our bills, we will be failing to meet our obligations and under any scenario we will be

defaulting on obligations. there is no plan other than raising the debt limit that permits us to meet all of our obligations. when questions are raised about prioritization, the first question is interest and principal on the debt and then as you said, mr. chairman, what else? the legal issues even regarding interest and principal on the debt are complicated. let me remind everyone, principal on the debt is not something we pay out of our cash flow of revenues. principal on the debt is something of the function of the markets rolling over there is a question of what we do as a government and how the markets function when the government is failing to pay ll of its bills. we've never been there and i think anyone who suggests they know exactly what that means would be projecting after 224 years of the history of paying all of our bills what happens if we stop paying all of our bills. mr. chairman, i don't know how you could possibly choose between social security and veterans' benefits, between

medicare and food assistance. these are obligations we've made. you know, we wouldn't have the money to necessarily pay our troops in full. we wouldn't have the money to pay our veterans the benefits in full. our systems were not designed to not pay our bills. our systems were all designed to pay our bills. the legal issues are many i do not know how you could make the decisions. i do not think the legal authorities are clear at all. and i do not think the administrative process would permit the system to work. we write roughly 80 million checks a month. the systems are automated to pay because for 224 years the policy of congress and every president has been we pay our bills. you cannot go into those systems and easily make them pay some things and not other things. they weren't designed that way because it was never the policy of this government to be in a position that we would have to be in if we couldn't pay all our bills. prioritizing, it's my

understanding as well, some are, your obligations the big social security payment due october 23, interest on the debt, the end of the month, this month, major medicare, other bills due. then knowing the revenues a little bit sketchy, it's lumpy. it comes in unanticipated amounts. could you go over that a little bit please? >> that's very much the case, mr. chairman. we have estimates, if these estimates are wrong, then there is the real risk of miscalculation. and i would just note, even in the period of time that i've been keeping congress informed, we've seen swings in the normal course of things of $20 billion in terms of our estimate of what the cash on hand would be. and that's not because anyone did anything wrong. it's because quarterly tax receipts were not exactly where they were estimated to be. i'd also remind everyone that we're now in an unusual position with the government

shut down. that is having economic consequences that we're just beginning to understand. all the revenue projections that we have based our analysis on were based on a world where the government was functioning and all the functions related to government were happening. it didn't take into accounts layoffs that were occurred, reduction in payroll or payroll taxes. i have to assume that the estimation before the shutdown were not likely an accurate predicter of where we are. >> how do you reprogram computers? >> well, mr. chairman, i have to tell you, i don't believe there is a way to pick and choose a broad basis. this system was not designed to be turned off selectively. so anyone who thinks it can be done just doesn't know the multiple e of our payment systems that are very complex. they were designed properly to pay our bills. they were not designed to not pay our bills. >> prioritization just doesn't

work? >> i think prioritization is just default by another name. it's just saying we will default on some subset of our obligations. but we are still -- by definition, if we don't have enough money to pay all of our bills, we will be in had default on our obligation. >> thank you. senator hatch. >> thank you, mr. chairman. secretary, i want to be clear about the administration's position on the debt limit. as i understand it, the position is that the president will only accept the so-called clean debt limit hike with no other accompanying policy orificecal consideration attached to it. i've asked you repeatedly how much of a debt limit increase would you like and for how long and you have responded in a it's up to congress. i believe that the administration's position is unfortunate because it is clear that we have a debt problem and that the fundamental driver of our debt is unreasonable, unsustainable spending in our entitlement programs. i believe we can and should use this as an opportunity to address these problems, as i've

personally, as i've mentioned, offered five modest bipartisan proposals on entitlement reform to the president earlier this year, you received copies and unfortunately i've heard no responses to that. i sincerely did that. nevertheless, the administration's entitled to its opinions and positions so i just want for clear concerning the debt limit. as long as there's nothing attached to a debt limit increase, the administration will say nothing more about it, including its preferred outcomes in terms of how much an increase and for how long, is my understanding correct, or do you wish to give me your preferences about how big of a debt limit increase you'd like to have and for how long you'd like it so that the least we can begin discussions on this particular issue? >> senator, you and i have discussed this a number of times. we've corresponded a number of times. i wrote to you just last week, a few days ago, stating what our view is.

our view is that this economy would benefit from more certainty and less brinksmanship so the longer the period of time is the better for the economy. it's really congress' decision how often it wants to vote on the debt limit. i believe that more certainty is better. i think the senate leader and the chairman have put forward a proposal. >> mr. secretary, all i'm asking, how much do you want? how long? those are two simple questions. how much do you want us to raise and how long? >> senator, the question of how long is one i think i'm answering as clearly as i can. the longest that congress is prepared to extend it for is he best. i think -- the president tried to be clear in his statements in recent days that if congress passes something shorter, he looking to -- he's not for there to be a crisis here.

but congress will be right back dealing with it. so the better solution is to go longer. we've tried to be very clear. everyone knows that the numbers that are associated with different period of times. >> it's not clear to me. secretary lew, the long-term outlook from the nonpartisan congressional budget office makes a number of things abundantly clear. first, between 2009 and 2012, the federal government recorded the largest deficits since 1946, costing -- causing federal debt to soar to an amount higher than at any point in our history than during a brief period during world war ii. second, our debt path is unsustainable, threatening to bring us to this fiscal crisis. third, the root of our spending problem is the government's major health care programs. it includes, not just obamacare, but medicaid and medicare as well. and others. fourth, trust funds and social security and our health entitlement programs face exhaustion. yet, when it comes to negotiating solutions to our

entitlement strength problems, all -- spending spending problems, all i hear is that negotiations can only proceed f, first, the president is guaranteed another tax hike or that investments are turned off. when it comes to so much as to even discussing solutions to our entitlement spending program, problem, all i hear is that negotiations will only proceed if first we pass a clean continuing resolution and a clean debt limit increase. what does it take beyond a guarantee fought president and congressional democrats that they first get yet another tax hike or that the sequester be undone to get the administration to the table to talk about entitlement reforms such as the ones i proposed and which to date have been met with total silence from the administration? furthermore, is it reasonable to say there can be no negotiations unless there's another tax hike when we know this very day that disabled american workers face a benefit

cut of 20% or more under current law when the disability trust fund is exhausted in 2016 or earlier? >> senator, i think the record is clear that the president has negotiated, has wanted to negotiate and remains anxious to negotiate on a bipartisan basis to have a fair and balanced approach to dealing with our fiscal problems. >> it's not clear to me. >> he's been on the verge of agreements twice until frankly it was not acceptable to republicans in congress. he was prepared to do very hard things. he was ready to have an agreement twice. in 2011 at the end of last year. he put in his budget very tough policies, policies that many of the democrats on this committee find very challenging because he wanted to make clear he was looking for a balanced approach to entitlement reform and tax reform to settle our fiscal matters in a sensible way for the medium and long term. i think the president's record on being willing to negotiate is clear. i'd make one comment -- >> briefly. >> very briefly on the trajectory of our deficit.

i'd just note when the president took office in january, 2009, we were in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression. we were in the middle of two wars and we had a deficit that was 9% of our economy. we've cut that in half. we're making progress. we have more to do, but i don't think it's fair to say that we are in the same place we were. we've made tremendous -- [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> that's treasury secretary ack lew last week before the senate finance committee. the debt ceiling deadline. and some reaction from the markets is that deadline approaches, this is reporting from bloomberg, the headline -- treasury rate bill surge.

that's from "the wall street

journal" this afternoon. and the senate -- excuse me, the house rules committee is set to meet in about 10 minutes from now, 5:40 eastern. from hairage action, that's the political -- heritage action, that's part of the heritage foundation, headed by former senator jim demint, they're the ones that funded that defund obamacare tour over the august recess. this is a tweet from heritage action on how members should vote saying, key vote no on house spending and debt deal. that's from heritage action. earlier today we covered a number of former military personnel, veterans and their families, the military coalition held an event in washington representing a number of different constituencies as we look at the house rules committee. we're going to take and show you some of that event today on the impact of the shutdown on members in the military and veterans and we will take you hear live to the rules committee once they gavel in.

>> goorn, ladies and gentlemen. good morning, veterans, here and the millions of veterans everywhere. my name is herb, i'm the national executive director of the jewish war veterans of the u.s.a. and the president of the military coalition. military coalition, this is our press conference. we are 33 organizations, military and veterans

organizations. we represent active duty, retired, veterans, dependents and survivors. military coalition chairmen are represented by colonel bob norton of the military officers association who's representing our two chairmen, mike hayden and joe barnes. behind me, ladies and gentlemen, are representatives from the military coalition. they have my back. unlike the administration and congress which doesn't have my back. as we stand here, the government is shut down, military readiness is eroding, veterans fear they will not disable -- veterans fear they will not be getting checks. dependents and survivors have that worry. that shouldn't be. you're going to hear from our expert personnel about the military shutdown, about its effects and we call on the

administration and congress to shutdown. our veterans served, our veterans served this country. we need the country to serve our veterans, our military personnel, their dependents and their survivors. i thank you one in and all for being with us. i thank the colleagues in the coalition for the great work they do, and i will be followed now by morgan brown from the air force association. [applause] >> good morning. and thank you for being here. with the government shut down, the uniformed services cannot fully maintain the upkeep and training that our military readiness relies upon. many of the services that support the men and women in uniform remain closed. this profoundly affects the

country's military readiness. in addition, not everyone that wears the uniform in service to their country is back at work. that being the men and women serving in the noaa commission corps and the u.s. public health service. their pay remains in jeopardy. even though the bulk of the military is still at work, funding for government equipment, material, supplies and other items that they need has not been appropriated. this lapse in appropriations diminishes the effectiveness of our forces at a critimcal time while our nation remains at war. yes, we are still at war. speaking of that, emergency funding that supports commanders on the ground and intelligence activities also remains unavailable and service leaders report that the further curtailing, training for later deploying units, an activity that had already been reduced thanks to sequestration spending cuts. service members transferring to

and from overseas speak of problems with housing allowances not being started and dislocation, temporary lodging aplowanses not being paid. and i'd be remiss if i didn't mention the fact that military tuition assistance programs have been suspended and with a continued shutdown and the likelihood that post-9/11 g.i.b. payments are suspended, that poses a problem for our folks serving in uniform. at the end of the day, the most important asset are our people and the shutdown has raised significant morale concerns within the military as the force does its best to operate despite the additional stressers. this has commanders and service members alike very worried. again, i stress with each passing day of the shutdown, the readiness of our fighting force becomes more at risk and those serving our flakes eserve better than -- nation

deserve better than that. our message to the nation's leaders today is simple, it's time to end the shut youbdown. now here is major general andrew davis, a board member of the military coalition and director of the reserve officers association to speak to you on how the shutdown is affecting the reserve component. thank you. [applause] >> good morning. as morgan said, i'm retired marine corps and executive director of the reserve officers association of the united states. despite the reserve and guard making up nearly half of the u.s. defense force, that's 1.1 million service men and women. reserve component training has been canceled, and unwisely canceled. congress has overlooked the eed to pay these citizen

soldiers, marines, sailors, guardsman for drill training, that's weekend drill training. and the pentagon has made a policy decision that excludes them from active service even when the pay our military act authorizes active duty orders. i won't suggest the pentagon's motivation for this, but the policy they published is out of date with the law and out of date with the realities of our nation's defense needs. frustration grows among the reserve component population as they are unable to fulfill their mission. in the last 12 years, the reserve and guard has been mobilized more than 883,000 times and 330,000 of them more than once. these men and women also responded to help their fellow citizens during natural and ecological disasters such as hurricanes, flooding and oil spills.

today, nearly 50,000 reserve and guardsmen are activated, taking the same risks as active duty service members. yet, after returning from war or disaster, they see they are again being overlooked, making them feel they are second-class warriors. this federal government shutdown proves to them that they are actually right. as it is unlikely they will be able to make up lost training time and income. unlike the furloughed civilian employees who likely will get retropay. our military readiness is being impaired because reserve readiness is a perishable commodity. and 1.1 million people in the reserve force are offended at how they are being treated. not to be overlooked is the rest of the uniformed services, public health service and the noaa corps that was totally

left out of the pay our military act. these groups sent individuals into war zones as well but were totally forgotten. it's time to end the government shutdown now. i would now like to introduce kathleen moakler of the national military families association. [applause] >> good morning. i'm kathleen, government relations director for the national military family association and a proud military family member. military families have shown their courage and resilience through the past decade of war and in past conflicts. it's harder for them to show the same strength and resilience when faced with the uncertainties caused by the government shutdown. while we are grateful for the quick action on the pay our military act, the overall security of our nation cannot

be addressed in a piecemeal fashion. last week, we had the families of the fallen relying on donations from gracious charities to bury their dead until appropriate legislation was passed. today, military families and survivors still face uncertainty and financial difficulties. survivors don't know if they will receive their d.i.c. payments at the end of the month. families who have used the g.i. bill to pay for the education of their children don't know if they'll be able to pay tuition for the rest of the semester. the absence of a defense appropriations bill, along with budget cuts and sequestration, poses a threat to the long-term readiness of service members and families as training has been curtailed, moves have been postponed or canceled and important contracts cannot be executed. military families, like other american families, rely on other programs and services provided by the federal

government. the shutdown of the w.i.c. program will affect many young military families who rely on this assistance. public schools, educating large numbers of military children, face the loss of much-needed impact aid funds if the shutdown continues. service members continue to deploy and fight on behalf of our nation. they and their families need to know that the programs and services they rely on will be available to ensure that readiness. we need a permanent fix, not the temporary band-aid of faces us again in the next few months. we ask you to pass the appropriation bills, end the government shutdown and show military families and survivors that they continue to have the nation's support. i am pleased to introduce our next speaker, steve gonzalez,

from the american legion. [applause] >> good morning, everyone. my name is steve gonzalez. i'm here on behalf of the dan nal commander, dillinger who scurntly at our national headquarters in indianapolis and will be host agnus conference later today and on behalf of the 2.4 million americans mebs of the american legion. it is very difficult for us to understand why veterans are first in the list of spending sacrifices when congress fails to compromise and achieve a solution to one of its most fundamental tasks, managing our budget. we have been assured and reassured by the president and members of congress on numerous occasions that the budget won't be balanced on the backs of veterans and yet here we are today. it seems impossible to believe now that millions of men and women who are transitioning or have already transitioned from military service will be forced to depend upon charity for

their very existence before the country they have fought to defend gets -- due to government shutdown and political bickering. most veterans will be seeking employment. others will be eager to return to college or take up vocational training instead of a job. however, with this current situation, there will be no effort by any agency to assist those transitioning service members or veterans with employment training on any level if the shutdown continues and further. these men and women already have been exposed to hardships and suffering during their military service, making it difficult to transition to civilian life. asking them to attempt to move into civilian employment with an unemployment rate exceeding 20% in some areas is even more difficult, but asking them to do so during a government shutdown of the database of labor's employment and training programs, such as jobs for veterans state grants, the transition assistance program,

homeless veterans reintegration program, and the federal administration usera enforcement, it's outrageous and a disgrace to those who have served. in a true sense, we are not giving anything to veterans. we are making at that token payment on a debt and it takes the form of opportunity. just trying to give them the opportunity to get back to the place where they can enjoy the same freedom of opportunity which they have preserved for us. through their service and sacrifice. on behalf of the american legion, i express our thanks and appreciation -- [inaudible]

>> it is my hope we will give embers time to appropriately -- [inaudible] have those discussions and i have put the entire committee on notice.

>> well, you may have heard the comments from pete sessions, the chairman of the rules committee, as they exited the room. they're postponing this rules committee hearing on the republican plan to open the government and extend the debt ceiling but the meeting has been postponed. a tweet from ed henry of fox. the house g.o.p. doesn't have

the votes for their own bill. heritage action is against it. rules committee now postponed. from "politico," they're saying president obama said he would veto the debt ceiling legislation if it includes the provision cutting health subsidies for congressional officials. and that was the late add today by -- reportedly by republicans. ne more here from frank from nbc. ted yoho of florida. i can't support this bill because there's not meat in it. i mean, it's not going anywhere. we will keep you posted. that meeting of the rules committee has been postponed subject to the call of the chair. as soon as they announce if and when they're coming back, we will let you know about it. you e meantime, we'll take to the briefing from jay carney from earlier this afternoon. this happened about 1:00 eastern, 12:30 or so eastern, and this is before republicans had revealed the change in their proposal this afternoon. we'll show you as much of this as we can until we find that

information about rules and possible action tonight on the house floor. >> good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. thanks for being here. before i take your questions, i just wanted to to note that earlier today the president was briefed on the effect of the lapse on the appropriations, the so-called shutdown. and among the items that he was briefed on was the fact that small businesses are feeling the impact of shutdown askey federal efforts that support small business have been halted. due to the shutdown, as you know now in its 15th day, the s.b.a. cannot approve new guarantees of loans provided by banks to small businesses. in a typical month the small business administration approves loans to more than 4,000 small businesses, and halting these loans represents over $1 billion in lost loan assistance to small businesses thereby jeopardizing, rather,

thousands of jobs. and, you know, again, another consequence of a wholly unnecessary, completely manufactured crisis that is doing harm to our economy, harm to our small businesses and was brought about by, you know, one faction of one party in one house in one branch of government making ideological demands and thereby shutting down the government with that i'll take your questions. julie. >> thanks, jay. give us a sense of the state of play at this point. is it the white house's understanding there is a deal that is finalized between harry reid and mitch mcconnell that would lift the debt ceiling and rope the government? >> the president is pleased with the proimpress that we've seen in the senate. it is important to note that the process that's been undertaken in the senate is bipartisan, that senators reid and mcconnell have been engaging one another.

democrats and republicans have been engaging on this issue. and it's all built around the fundamental premise that we should not have shut down the government, that we should reopen the government and we must ensure that the united states pays its bills on time. as it always had. and we should do -- congress should take those actions in a way that does not have partisan strings attached and that ensures the kind of stability for our economy and for our middle class that they need. so we're pleased with the progress. i'd refer you to senate leaders for the status of those discussions. but we certainly believe that there's a potential there for a resolution to this unnecessary, manufactured crisis that can allow us to get back to the important business of helping grow the economy and create jobs and taking action to improve the lives of

middle-class americans that elected officials were sent here to do. >> are they confident that it will pass before the thursday deadline for the debt ceiling? >> for congressional timing and how -- >> you guys know -- >> there's no question that we are very close to a very important deadline. and time is of the essence. so i think that is why you see some very serious-minded efforts being undertaken in the senate, and we would hope that the house would also approach this important deadline with the same understanding of just how serious it is. >> in 2011, the u.s. credit rating was downgraded just because the government got so close to a default. is the white house or treasury hearing from any of the rating agencies now that we are again preparing close to that deadline without a resolution?

>> i'd refer you to the treasury department for those kinds of conversations if they're taking place, that wouldn't be something that i would brief on from here. we have known from past experiences the difficult lessons learned from 2011 that the serious flirtation with fault that house republicans engaged in two years ago led to some pretty negative consequences for our economy, including, as you noted, the united states being downgraded for the first time. >> is the president in these briefings getting anything from any of these officials about how the rating agencies -- >> that would not be something from here d brief on because obviously issues that have to do with market sensitivities are not ones i would address here. roberta. >> last week the president said in a worst-case scenario there are things we'll do. what if thursday comes and

there's no deal? has the white house started implementing some of those contingency plans? >> well, i would not go further than what the president or the treasury secretary have said about that. i'd refer you to treasury. he -- the treasury secretary, jack lew, testified, as you know, last week where broadly this issue was discussed. but we are obviously focused on working with members of congress, leaders in congress on an effort to do what we said was essential all along which was open the government, and make sure that the united states pays its bills by extending the debt ceiling. and doing that in a way that we don't simply put us on a trajectory to re-create this crisis again in the next few weeks. so we're, you know, encouraged by the progress that we've seen mountain senate, but we're far from a deal at this point.

so we hope that -- we'd hope that progress continues. >> what is it about the senate deal, though, that won't re-create the crisis in the next few months? what in it -- >> there's not a bill for me to analyze for you now. >> in case of the pending -- >> i think every participant in this exercise would hopefully understand that it should not be repeated. not in a few weeks, not in a few months, and when it comes to the fundamental responsibility of congress to ensure that the united states does not default, not ever,es that certainly the president's view. that is why he's been so insistent that we cannot engage in a process here that then becomes normalized where a minority in congress, a faction of one party in one house can threaten the full faith and credit of the united states if does not get what it could not

get through the normal legislative process or through elections. so those are the stakes when it mes to the essential responsibility of congress to ensure that the department of treasury can pay our bills. >> do you think there are strings attached in the bill it as it is developing? what does the white house make of those strings? >> again, i'm not going to analyze details of a bill that we haven't seen yet and has not emerged yet. >> jay, some of the -- it seems like key parts of the senate bill, the income verification, president obama said, quote, no one gets to threaten the full faith and credit of the united states just to extract political concession. if you're open to that, presume the white house is, they're talking to white house democrats, isn't that concession? >> again, i think what we have

seen -- >> [inaudible] >> what we have seen in the process thus far that senator a d has engaged in, is proposal that would reopen the government and remove the threat of a first-ever u.s. default by raising the debt ceiling. you know, we don't need any more self-inflicted wounds from congress. the economy is already paying a price as outside analysts have noted. there is already a cost to the economy and therefore to growth and jobs from this behavior. and it's important, as i think so many americans believe that it stop. that congress fulfill its basic responsibilities to open the government, to fund it at, again, levels that were set by republicans so we can get about the business of negotiating in good faith over longer term

budget proposals. i'm not going -- >> but there are provisions -- you are talking about the short-term increase in the debt ceiling and the c.r. you're not going to talk about the obamacare provisions which are always -- which are also on the table. i mean, you're talking about the short-term debt ceiling and c.r. provisions. even if these are smart gives on obamacare, doesn't it violate the principle that the president set out there that he will not negotiate on obamacare? >> until we have a proposal that has emerged from these negotiations in the senate, i'm not going to, you know, analyze it with you piece by piece. what i can say is we've been encouraged by the provide agrees -- progress and we believe and the president believes that when it comes to the debt ceiling that we not do what previous effort in the house would have done which is try to create a scenario where budget negotiations and the renewal of government funding are once again tied directly to

the essential responsibility of congress to pay our bills. and right before the holidays which would have been -- would be a terrible outcome to this process as every business owner will tell you. and i think many of them have told you and many of them have told their representatives in congress. >> so will he not negotiate when it comes to obamacare on the full faith and credit of the u.s. or on the government being shut down? >> yes, he's made clear -- he's made clear two things, brianna, as you know. he's willing within the context of broader budget negotiations, within the context of serious-minded and earnest discussions about how to improve the affordable care act, to look at any prolve, they might do that, going to obamacare. and that's true on broader budget issues. but some of the ideas that we've seen this morning, when it comes to sort of demanding

ransom to try to rally tea party members in had exchange for opening the government or raising the debt ceiling, that's not acceptable. and it has not been through this process is there nothing in the boehner proposal which is acceptable to you? >> reopening the government and extending the debt ceiling is acceptable. >> the obamacare included in the senate deal? >> there's not a proposal in the house to talk about now, based on the press conference given by house republican leaders and based on some of the reporting i have seen since then, that's because they are now going back to add sweetners to the tea party members. and the better course of action is the one being undertaken by democrats and republicans in the senate. instead of trying to once again craft