good time for the befuddled world to start considering building a dwe-americanized world. what is the white house's message to the >> i would simply say it is an important fact that the full faith and credit of the united states, the principle that has existed for centuries that this country pays its bills and pays them on time and that includes paying investors from around the world, the principle that this economy is a safe bet and the safest bet that investment in our country is as safe as any investment anywhere should not be compromised. and those who would compromise it are flirting with something are risking something that has immense value to the nation and to the american people.

>> i wanted to follow on the question, just to clarify, is the president negotiating on whether or not to reopen the government and raise the debt limit? >> our position has been no ransom for reopening the government or congress' responsibility. >> is he not negotiating? >> the president has had -- it depends on what you mean by negotiate. he has been having conversations with lawmakers. what he has firmly made clear again and again is give the tea party its ideological agenda wish list in exchange for congress opening the government or congress raising the debt ceiling so the united states doesn't default. that has been his position all along. it is clear in its simplicity,

open the government, pay our bills, stop threatening default and stop doing harm to the economy and american people. that has been our position all along. and reiterating those points. it was to make clear that we see progress in the senate. we see in the senate process, the kind of bipartisan effort is the path to resolving these kinds of issues when it comes to these simple responsibilities that congress maintains, opening the government, funding it, making sure that congress pays its bills. and we hope that all of congress takes the appropriate action to ensure that they do not continue to inflict harm on the american economy. >> since you have been talking to a spokesman for boehner, a senior administration official did not proactively raise the medical device issue is

astoundingly dishonest and it was a senior administration official who proposed it. >> i have answered the question three times. there have been questions about that because republicans have been putting it on the table. what we have always said we have never ever proposed or agreed to pay ransom in exchange for opening the government. and the proposal -- i had a brief existence this morning before i guess the tea party pulled it down, contained within it a demand to placate the tea party in exchange for opening the government. we are not paying ransom for that. it is astoundingly disingenuous

to suggest that our position has ever been we are going to pay ransom in exchange for republicans to open the government. >> one other topic on the shutdown. we were talking about iran, does the president have any reaction to the talks that have been going on? >> i'm not sure there is an offer. there was a meeting in geneva the first day of it and the iranian delegation made a presentation and they discussed the presentation. we aren't going to negotiate this in public or go into the details of what was in their proposal. we certainly want to make clear that no one, despite the positive signs we have seen, no one should expect a break- through. these are complicated issues. and as the president has said, the mistrust here is very deep.

but we hope for progress in geneva. and although we appreciate the recent change in tone from the iranian government on this issue, we will be looking for specific steps that address core issues, such as the pace and scope of its enrichment program, the transparency of its overall nuclear program and stockpiles of enrichment. it is seeking an agreement that ultimately resolves all the international community's concerns and while we negotiate, we will continue to keep up the economic pressure on iran, which has brought about the occasion for at least the prospect of making progress. >> how do you view the presentation? do you find it encouraging? was it a step in the right direction? >> i would simply say that after day one, we are hopeful we will make progress in geneva, but beyond that, i wouldn't

characterize the presentation or the status of conversations. >> polling on the shutdown and default stuff has been just clearly bad for congressional republicans. not been great for everyone else but worse for them. how do you think that should affect the way they proceed and how do you think that should affect how the white house proceeds and how much you should concede with the pressure on making concessions? >> as the president said last week, there are no winners here, and you can't -- it's not the right thing to do to look at this as a partisan, zero-sum game. the right thing to do is to make no partisan demands as part of congress doing its basic job. funding the government, making

sure the united states pays its bills on time. the president is more than eager to sit down and work with lawmakers of both parties to discuss a broader budget agreement where we can find compromise in making necessary investments in key areas like education and innovation and infrastructure while making balanced but tough choices when it comes to reducing our deficit and managing our long-term debt. that has been evident in the proposals he put forward and he wants to get back to that. but the context for that is budget negotiations where there are no guns on the table where the threat of shutdown or the threat of continued shutdown is removed. the threat of default is removed and lawmakers with good intentions from both parties as well as the white house can try

and find a broader agreement on our budget priorities. that would be good for the country and probably would be good for everyone in washington of both parties. >> -- reflects a snapshot in time. do you feel this has been well done and does reflect the public sentiment? you guys look at polling. what is the polling telling you how the public feels and how both sides should proceed? >> margaret, i would just say that americans are justifiably frustrated by dysfunction in washington, by a decision from any corridor, a decision made by house republicans to shut the government down over a partisan dispute or to threaten default for partisan reasons.

and again, how the public views it is reflected in what's been played out here, the president has taken the position where he has asked for nothing in return for congress doing its job. he is eager to sit down and have tough negotiations and conversations with republicans and democrats about our budget priorities, but only after these basic responsibilities are fulfilled, that the government reopen and the threat of default be removed. >> do you think that the senate and house republicans are paying attention to the polling? >> again, i just don't think that's the way we want to look at this here. look, here's the thing, whatever analysis you make of the data that you cite and i think there is a consensus that reflects

what you said, we wish it weren't so, we wish instead congress had simply kept the government open. we wish instead that the house had allowed for a process by which congress, without drama and delay, ensure that the united states would pay its bills into the future, just like we wish for the country for deficit reduction, for our economy, the house would follow the senate's lead and pass comprehensive immigration reform with a big bipartisan vote. that might be good for the republican party and it would say so, republicans would say so. we hope they do it. the president believes it's very important in our country to have two strong parties and to have parties with sincere differences, but lawmakers who are willing to make compromises without sacrificing their principles in order to do the

essential business of the american people. that's the approach he has always taken and one of the things that has been difficult over these last several years, we have seen a highly partisan wing of one party drive the train, if you will, when it comes to how we move forward on these issues and it makes it very difficult. >> from the podium, the polling pollsters, the attacks the president has been taking on not negotiating. >> i think it's important if you shorthand it and say he doesn't want to negotiate, that ignores an entire calendar year where he has been asking republicans to sit down with him and negotiate. he put forward a budget. he had numerous meetings and meals and conversations with republicans in the senate and house about these very issues. but he does not believe that our partisan differences should be

the excuse for shutting down the economy, in the worst-case scenario or shutting down the government. that's just using the american people and american economy as pawns in this partisan dispute. and that's not the right way to do things. we ought to make sure these essential functions are funded and make sure the united states pays its bills and then we should negotiate. >> first of all, i don't know if you are aware of this, when i had a heart attack a few years ago, i wasn't able to get insurance. listening to all of the pressure, made me think, is there a chance the president would be willing to delay obamacare for a year if the republicans would agree to delay heart attacks for a year? >> you know the president's position is that we need to

implement the affordable care act and when it comes to the millions of americans across the country who have had a very hard time getting access to affordable health insurance, we need to focus on those folks and continue the business of implementing the affordable care act so that on january 1, those americans will be able to purchase insurance, quality insurance at affordable rates for the first time. that answer your question? >> my second question, i was talking to my mom this morning and she asked me to ask you to please open the government back up again and i know you just can't do that. but she is worried about her social security check. i said don't worry mom, we'll get it taken care of. but steve, last night said october 23 is one of these drop- dead dates when stuff starts to

pile up. should she be worried? >> what i would say about that, which goes to the issue of the debt ceiling is that the united states government, through congress, has made a lot of commitments. and has a lot of obligations. and those include the commitments and obligations that the congress has made and we have made to america's seniors. and we need to never contemplate the possibility that the timely provision of benefits to those seniors would be jeopardized by a decision by one faction of one party of one house of one branch of government to wage an ideological battle here in washington. that's why -- that crystalizes

the fact that there are real people who depend on some basic things. and everybody in washington, democrats and republicans and independents should sort of agree to the principle that we ought to, at the very least, ensure that those people are taken care of and that the essential functioning of government is allowed to proceed and that the basic premise that the united states always pays its bills on time is not jeopardized. that's the position the president has taken. >> last question, do you remember the last debt ceiling deal, there was a plan floated called the mcconnell plan where congress would authorize a debt ceiling increase for a year, year and a half and hold a vote every so often and require 2/3 majority. is something like the mcconnell plan being discussed now and if not?

why not? >> i would basically direct you to congress for the various plans for discusses for how they fulfill. congress has the authority whether it's to devise a scheme or a plan along the lines that you talked about or just take the vote and raise the debt ceiling. that's not an authority the president has but congress has. >> jay, basically, you are saying thursday and from what you said at the podium, you aren't going to pay all of your bills. what should the american public be bracing for? you are basically calmly calling fire? >> on thursday, the united

states runs out of its borrowing authority and that means the treasury only has cash on hand to meet the obligations that the united states government has. >> you aren't going to be able to pay all of your bills? >> the treasury is the place to go to specific time tables as to when bills come due than and how that works. the reason we need to raise the debt ceiling is to ensure that the treasury can borrow to meet our obligations. inevitably, if your obligations exceed what you take in, you are in a situation where default is a possibility. but the treasury is the right place to address those questions. and april, i don't have the list of many outside experts who aren't crying fire. they are crying stop. stop doing, stop threatening the american and global economy with the prospect of default and do

the responsible thing and pass a bill that extends the debt ceiling so this isn't something that could happen or be contemplated. that is not us, certainly not us alone. many folks from the business world and both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that we don't want to cross that line because the consequences would be very negative. >> i'm not putting any blame anywhere, what should the american public be bracing for because many persons have had their paychecks stopped and government subsidies to programs. thursday, friday, whatever, when you are not able to pay all of your bills, what should the american public be bracing for? >> i understand, a, we hope we don't get to the point where that's a reality. it is within congress's power to ensure that does not happen.

broadly speaking, i said there is reason to be concerned given the disposition we have seen in congress in particular among house republicans, although some senate republicans as well, to flirt with default, flirt with crossing that threshold beyond which we don't have borrowing authority. that's very dangerous. we believe there is a majority in both houses to ensure that if given the chance that this never comes about. i have to go to another medal of honor -- >> what is the construct as to why we're here? we know it's partisan agendas and politics and sunday we saw a situation at the white house where race was involved and many are saying it has to do with race because the president is a black man.

is race a part of this stalemate conversation? >> april, i don't believe that that's the issue here. i believe this is a decision by republicans shut the government down, not because every republican wanted it, but because republican leaders in the house were listening to a faction within their party, a majority of the house should be allowed to vote on a clean c.r. as we talked about. and when it comes to the essential responsibility to ensure that the united states pays its bills that congress be able to take that action so that this threat is removed. and everybody, republicans and democrats can get about the business of discussing and negotiating over our budget priorities. john, last one.

>> does the president support the re-insurance provision -- >> not going to negotiate items over proposed bills that haven't been written or submitted. >> can i get your reaction to mcconnell deciding to suspend negotiations until the house does or does not act today? >> we see progress in the senate and seen a bipartisan approach in the senate that we would hope that the house would emulate. >> can you give us a time frame frame of when you expect the federal exchanges will be fully functional and what entities are working on it and who pays for this part of the contract or is this an additional cost? >> those are all questions for h.h.s. and c.m.s. i can tell you at the president's direction, people are working 24/7 to resolve the problems that have arisen.

and taking steps to make sure that those many, many millions of americans who are interested in the options available to them to purchase affordable health insurance in many cases for the first time, have the best consumer experience possible and there are a lot of people hard at work on this but the work being done and the process in place, i would refer you to h.h.s. thanks everybody. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> coming up, veterans talk about al -- how they have been affected by the government shutdown. a discussion about the closure of national monuments and parks. how the shutdown is affecting small business owners. on the next washington journal, an update on negotiations in congress to reopen the government and avoid a default when the nation's depomed

expires on thursday. our guests are republicans congressman scott rigell and tim ryan of ohio. i look at how wall street is reacting to the shutdown. we will talk with maria. washington journal is live on c- span everyday at 7:00 a.m. eastern. c-span's student cam video competition asks, what is the most important issue congress should consider in 2014. make a 5-7 minute documentary showing various points of view and be sure to include c-span video. the competition is open to all middle and high school students with a grand prize of $5,000. this year, we have doubled the number of winners and total prizes. entries are due by january 20, 2014. for more information, visit studentcam.org. veteransentatives of

talked about the affects of the shutdown at a news conference today. it was held at the world war ii memorial on the national mall which has been closed by the national park service. this is when the five minutes. -- 25 minutes. >> good morning, ladies and gentlemen. here anding, veterans the millions of veterans everywhere. i am the national executive director of the jewish war veterans of the usa and the president of the military coalition. coalition, this is our press conference. we are 33 organizations, military and veterans organizations. we represent active duty, retired, veterans, dependents

and survivors. the military coalition chairman are represented by colonel bob norton of the military officers association who is representing our two chairman. representatives from the military coalition. they have my back. unlike the administration and congress which doesn't have my back. here, the government is shut down, government -- military readiness is eroding. they will not be getting checks. dependents and survivors have that worry. that shouldn't be. you're going to hear from our expert personnel about the military shutdown, about its effects. we call on the administration and congress to end the shutdown. countryrans served this

. we need the country to serve our veterans, our military personnel, their dependents and their survivors. i thank you one and all for being with us. i think the colleagues in the coalition for the great work they do, and i will be followed now by morgan brown on the air force. [applause] >> good morning. thank you for being here. with the government shutdown, the uniformed services cannot fully maintain the upkeep and training that our military readiness relies upon. many of the services that support the men and women in uniform remain closed. this profoundly affects the countries military readiness. in addition, not everyone that

wears the uniform in service to their country is back at work. that being the men and women a commissioned noa corps and the u.s. public health service. their pay remains in jeopardy. even though the bulk of the military is still at work, funding for government equipment, materials, supplies and other items that they need has not been appropriated. this lapse in appropriations diminishes the effectiveness of our forces. our nation remained at war. yes, we are still at war. emergency funding, the supports commanders on the ground also remains unavailable. service leaders report they are further curtailing training for later deploying units. an activity that had already been reduced things to sequestration. service members transferring to and from overseas speak of problems with housing allowances not being started and

dislocation allowance is not being paid. i would be remiss if i didn't mention the fact that military tuition assistance programs have been suspended and with a continued shutdown and the likelihood that g.i. bill payments will also be suspended, that poses a problem. at the end of the day, the most important asset are our people. the shutdown has raised significant morale concerns within the military as the force does its best to operate despite the additional stressors. this has commanders and service members alike very worried. each passing day of the shutdown, the readiness of our fighting force becomes more at risk. those serving our nation deserve or than this. our nation to the nation's him later today is simple. it is time to end the shutdown.

now here is major general andrew davis, a board member of the military coalition and executive director of the reserve officers association to speak to you on how the shutdown is affecting the reserve component. thank you. [applause] >> good morning. as morgan said, i am major general drew davis, retired marine corps and executive director of the reserve officers association. guarde the reserve and making up nearly half of the is 1.1fense force, that million service men and women, reserve component training has been canceled, on widely canceled. congress has overlooked the need to pay these citizen soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen and coast guard spent for their

inactive drill training. the pentagon has made a policy decision that excludes them from active service even when the pay our military act authorizes active duty orders. i won't suggest the pentagon's motivations for this but the policy they published is out of date with the law and out of date with realities of our nation's defense needs. frustration grows among the reserve component population that they are unable to fulfill their mission. in the last 12 years, the reserve and guard has been timeszed or than 883,000 and 330,000 of them or than once. these men and women also responded to help their fellow citizens during national and ecological disasters such as hurricanes, flooding and oil spills. 50,000 reserve and guardsmen are activated, taking

the same risks as active-duty servicemembers. yet after returning from war or disaster, they see that they are again being overlooked, making them feel that they are second class warriors. this federal government shutdown proves to them that they are actually right. it is unlikely that they will be able to make up lost training time and income unlike the furloughed civilian employees who likely will get retro pay. our military readiness is being impaired because reserve readiness is a perishable commodity. 1.1 million people in the reserve force are offended at how they are being treated. overlooked as the rest of the uniformed services -- these groups send individuals

into war zones as well but were totally forgotten. it is time to end the government shutdown now. i would now like to introduce kathleen of the national military families association. [applause] >> good morning. i am kathleen, government relations director for the national military family association and a proud literary family member. military families have shown their courage and resilience in the past decade of war. it is harder for them to show the same strength and resilience when faced with the uncertainties caused by the government shutdown. while we are grateful for the quick action on the pay our military act, the overall security of our nation cannot be addressed in a piecemeal fashion. last week, we had the families of the fallen relying on

donations from gracious charities to bury their dead until appropriate legislation was passed. today, military families and survivors still face uncertainty and financial difficulties. survivors don't know if they will receive their payments at the end of the month. families who have used the g.i. bill to pay for the education of their children don't know if they will be able to pay tuition for the rest of the semester. the absence of a defense appropriations bill along with budget cuts and sequestration poses a threat to the long-term readiness of servicemembers and families as training has been curtailed, moves have been postponed or canceled, and important contracts cannot be executed. military families like other american families rely on other programs and services provided by the federal government. the shutdown will affect any young military families who rely

on this assistance. public schools educating large numbers of military children face the loss of much-needed impact aid funds if the shutdown continues. service members continue to deploy and fight on behalf of our nation. they and their families need to know that the programs and services they rely on will be available to ensure that readiness. we need a permanent fix, not the temporary and date of budget deals or to face this again in a few months. the military family association along with the military coalition asks you to pass the appropriation bills, end the government shutdown and show military families and survivors that they continue to have the nation's support. i am pleased to introduce our next speaker, steve gonzalez from the american legion. [applause]

>> good morning, everyone. my name is steve gonzalez. i am here on behalf of the national commander. he is currently at national headquarters in indianapolis and will be hosting a news conference later today. on behalf of the 2.4 million numbers of the american legion, it is worried difficult for us to understand why veterans are first on the list of spending sacrifices when congress failed to cover my's and achieve a solution to one of its fundamental tasks, managing our budget. we have been assured and reassured by the president and congress on numerous occasions that the budget will be balanced on the backs of veterans and yet we here we are today. it seems impossible to believe now that millions of men and women who are transitioning from military service will be forced to depend on charity for the very existence before the country they have fought to defend gets around to caring for them due to a government

shutdown and political bickering. most of our veterans will be seeking employment and training in the open employment market. others will be eager to return to college or take a vocational training instead of a job. however, with this current situation, bill rubino effort by any agency -- there will be no effort by any agency if the shutdown continues. have beenand women exposed to hardships and suffering during their military service, making it difficult to transition to civilian life. asking them to attempt to move into civilian employment with and implement rate exceeding 20% in some areas is even more difficult. asking them to do show -- do so ising a government shutdown simply outrageous and a disgrace

to all those who have served. we are not giving anything to veterans. -- it takes the form of opportunity. trying to give them the opportunity to get back to a place where they can enjoy the same freedom of opportunity which they have preserved for us. on behalf of the american legion , i express our thanks and appreciation to our fellow colleagues and advocates standing here with me today. we hope that the president and congress will work together in a bipartisan manner to end this government shutdown. you toat, i introduce gary augustine. [applause] >> thank you. i am here on behalf of of one point 2 million members of the disabled american veterans known as the vad. we thank you for being here.

know, unless the stalemate is resolved, more than 4 million veterans may not receive their disability compensation, pension or g.i. bill payments in november. for many, those payments may be the primary or only source of income. the shutdown is already directly affecting that's. -- vets. as the a employees into new to the furloughed, the ability to adjudicate claims diminishes and the backlog starts to increase. payments areon and missed, many veterans won't be able to pay their mortgage, their rent, utility bills, car payments or even provide food for their families. who than 350,000 survivors may have lost their family breadwinner will not receive survivor's benefits which may be

the only income they have. veterans who have started fall semester will not have benefits paid which they need for tuition, books, rent or even food. researched v.a. projects will be put on hold in every v.a. academic health center, affecting the future health of millions of veterans and disrupting the work of thousands of clinicians who are focused on using research to try to restore that's -- vets wounded in iraq and afghanistan. our message, defaulting is not an option. we are here to tell them this is a time for the country to fulfill our promises to the men and women who served. last week, the avian national commander sent a letter to the president, the senate and the house of representatives expressing outrage over the partisan politics that are preventing the federal government from honoring our sacred allegations to our

nation's and heroes. commander johnson demanded that the president and congress reach an agreement to fully fund all federal the rams -- programs that support america's heroes. especially those injured due to service. our elected officials must understand the posturing and playing politics with veterans is unacceptable. we are calling for congress to pass legislation to extend appropriations to all v.a. funding, not just health care, so that veterans continue to receive all the benefits and services they have earned. aimed -- andudgets government shutdowns, advanced appropriations mean that medical services have not been suspended during the shutdown. we want the same protection against budget stalemate extended to the entire v.a. budget. the department of veterans affairs has shut its doors to veterans seeking to file claims. the dav remains on the job and has set up alternative sites to continue to providing assistance

to veterans and their families. we will not stand idly by while our nations injured and ill veterans suffer because of partisan politics. they are a national priority. the government must find a way to work together and end the shutdown as veterans found a way to protect our country when they wore the uniform of the u.s. military. thank you very much. i would like to introduce ray kelly. [applause] >> i am ray kelly. along with my colleagues, we are here to represent all veterans, all servicemembers, all survivors, all family members. that is why we have an organization to support them. we have to end this shutdown. congress has to do its work. piecemeal will not work.

together little by little is not going to solve the problem for veterans. from the time they joined the service to the time we lay them to rest, there are benefits. who are wanting to join the military will suffer. those payments will not go out. death benefits, if this continues, will reduce the amount of interment that the national cemeteries administration will be able to do. my friends have already spoken on many of the issues. we need to end the backlog. we need to solve sequestration. sequestration will affect readiness. air is no guarantee that v.a. will be exempt on the next round of cuts. the secretary has spoken to this. we need to step forward. we need to demand that congress

passing aheir job of budget and solving the problem of sequestration. it is time to take those barriers behind you down, not for a little while, not as a political stunt, but forever. the only way we can do that is with a budget. with that, i would like to introduce paul. [applause] >> good morning. and founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. we are proud to be here today standing alongside our brothers and sisters. this is an unprecedented showing of strength. veterans andnal military families support organizations are here today to send a message to america the president and congress. end the shutdown.

my grandfather served in the south pacific for three years and never lived to see this memorial. he would be proud of what we are doing today. this unity that exists among veterans. unity thatly, it is we don't see on the hill in washington. we all stuck together when we were in combat. we put the mission first. we put our country first. mr. president, mr. speaker, that is what you need to do now. put the country first and end the shutdown. thousands of our members across the country are in school right now utilizing the g.i. bill. they are doing the right thing. they served overseas, they came home and they want to start a new life. they don't know if they are going to get paid on november 1 to continue school. they don't know if disability checks are coming. that is ridiculous. that is shameful. that is outrageous. it needs to stop. we have seen demand for our education support program increase by 500%. when the government shuts down,

our veterans still need support. they come to these groups for it. the overflow has to go somewhere. it is coming to us. we want to send that message loud and clear that now is the time. our values mean everything to us. service,duty, respect, honor, integrity, personal courage. that is what these people stand for. that is what this country stands for. that is what we need our politicians to stand for now. end the shutdown. i am going to turn it over to herb. thank you for your leadership and for your steadfast support for our nation's veterans and families. [applause] >> ladies and gentlemen, the speakers you have heard today represent some 10 million people , not just people, 10 million who have served in our nation's

him armed forces. keep that in mind, please. 10 million who have served and who now need your support and the support of the administration and congress. veterans welcome the who have joined us and thank each of you for your service to our country and for being here today. we will not take questions to the podium but people are available to take questions after we closed. before i close, i want to thank paul the chief executive officer, tom tarantino and kate who put this together. they did the heavy lifting. let's thank iava. [applause] mr. president, mr. speaker, members of congress, let's take care of our military people and

veterans. thank you all. [applause]

>> most national parks and monuments have been closed to visitors. some of those monuments including the statue of liberty and mount rushmore have reopened with funds from the states. the heritage foundation hosted a discussion about how the shutdown is affecting the national parks service. this is just over an hour. >> thank you. thank all of your for coming today to discuss the closing of the american monuments. let's just take a step back. contemplate why we have

memorials and national monuments at all. for george washington, the purpose was the nourishing and perpetuating of the spirit of freedom and patriotism in our country. placeses madison, these were precious to the nation as the memorials of its origin and early transactions. for benjamin latrobe, president jefferson's surveyor of public buildings, these places represented the tranquility, the prosperity and the happiness of american government. offering sagely advice very on -- early on, george washington cautioned us from politicizing these places that were presented ideas higher than daily politics. direction eut the erection of the memorial, the

event to which it is dedicated, the effect with which it is meant to produce have all an intimate relation to the rights and happiness of the people. let it be commenced not through the organ of government as a , but in a mode which will testify the sentiments which spontaneously go in the breasts of republican citizens. come if you have observed what is going on this month. there have been 17 partial government shutdowns since 1977. if history is any guide, there will be more in the future. that is nothing new. what is new are the arbitrary and unnecessary actions of the national park service. closed many memorials and public places. they remained open in previous

government shutdowns. from leaving these monuments open, they have taken actions to barricade them, and force the life ases and make difficult for american citizens as possible. far from the tranquility and prosperity these places are supposed to represent. one park service employee was quoted as saying, we have been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. discuss thetoday to purposes of america's monuments, the actions of the national park service during this government shutdown and how those actions conform with the law. we are honored to have congressman rob bishop who serves you tod's first congressional district. he will offer some keynote remarks and then we will return to our distinguished panel to speak about not only the history

and purpose of america's monuments but the legal ramifications of some of the park service actions. representative bishop serves on the house armed services committee and the house rules committee. he has continued to serve as chairman of the public lands and environmental regulations subcommittee of the natural resources committee. please join me in welcoming rob bishop. [applause] >> thank you. i appreciate your kind introduction and the charity applause. [laughter] i am happy to be here even though it is not wise to talk when you're actually upset. i have been in that situation for the last three weeks. the other day i was trying to meet with a couple of air force generals and as usual i was late. i find out that if you have to go into the building, the elevators are always slow and crowded.

the escalators are far faster if you want to get from the basement to the first floor. this morning when i tried to go there running late, somebody had messed up and all the escalators were all going down. everyone of them. i thought that was a perfect metaphor not only for our country and congress and this administration. i am here to talk about what the park service is doing and the forest service. the policies clearly are those based on vague diffidence -- the gift -- vindictiveness. how high up to the instructions actually go? i feel this is going to be another irs investigation. you find out there is another level above it. you have seen what has happened in the world war ii memorial. everyone is upset. it is also happening on public land everywhere. you have read about people that are not allowed to visit graves in tennessee. the school bus route in

tennessee that has been closed down. tennessee.he inn in the senior citizens and foreigners that were held under armed guard in yellowstone and forced to take a 2.5 hour bus ride where there weren't allowed to stop for bathroom breaks. when they did stop to take pictures of buffalo, they were threatened again saying that photographing was recreating and they couldn't recreate in yellowstone under the close down. a jogger in valley forge was fined $100 for jogging. playground, they actually chained and padlocked the playground circuits couldn't go on the swings or the slide. one park in utah which i thought , this parkpark actually happened to be on forest service grant. when they went for their 30th

anniversary picnic, there were shoved off the grounds before they could put their food down to eat in the park. all these things clearly show that the purpose of public land which is supposedly for memorializing what has happened in history and providing recreation opportunities, is simply being placed in a secondary position to showing there is power and control by certain groups. they claim there are first amendment exceptions. protest theing to world bank or immigration issues , from the same evil who allowed the occupied movement, but not for cancer research programs or for weddings or for the german- american friendship day which was canceled. you thinkows what would actually happen if somebody wanted to exercise a second amendment right on public land. fairness for those of you

who find this appalling, from somebody who lives in the west, my question has to be, so what? we are living with this everyday. this is nothing new for us. we have been doing this for months. stoppinghave a person a legal outfitter from going onto grounds because she doesn't think there should be commercial .ctivity in her wilderness area in washington where they have expanded the area of the park to include something that is basically a city park and band and tangible church picnic because the noise would bother the historic and cultural aspects of the rest of the park -- or in nevada where a victim --a murder for somebody was the family would try to find somebody who would search privately. 15 months later they were able to raise the money to get the permits and insurance, and once that firm was allowed to go into the park, found the body within two hours. an air force staff sergeant who

drowned, the park service gave up. the family had to wait 10 months to get the permission to have somebody else go in there and find the body. park on our border in which the park service wanted to move their electronic devices from point a to point b, it took six months for the land manager to give permission to back up the truck. which the border patrol wanted to have in a forest area, forest service agreed to three pads. a year and half later, those pads were not there. washington, you still have an area designated by congress as wild recreation rivers, they have banned any kind of recreation that involves a

motor, a pedal or an oar. what is left? fish watching? when the park service makes a public comment against the keystone pipeline saying that it could involve the park's mission even though the closest park is have fishway, and you and wildlife service in an endangered species that happens only to grow on oil shale -- only their -- and allows the county to have a mitigation plan if they have it by march -- this plan only blooms in june and july. you can't tell what it is until it actually blooms but they have to have in march there mitigation plan for what they don't know exist. there are no birds at that altitude but they simply said at that altitude they are supposed to have birds therefore that becomes a habitat. grazing has been stopped. timber mining has been stopped.

iin the world war monument is open again, these activities have been going on and will continue to go on in the west. department of interior is still vindictive. pleased that we will be talking about the eisenhower memorial later on. that has memorial broken probably every rule we have to get it established. it is so over budget. it shows once again the dysfunction that we have in certain areas of our government. down,he berlin wall came everyone realized the idea of centralized overly bureaucratic government fails. it doesn't work. we realize that everywhere in the world. -- discrediteded everywhere in the world except in washington where it still

seems to be the goal. the opposite of that is what our nation was supposedly founded on. upon which our nation was supposedly founded. preposition. i apologize. on which our nation was supposedly founded. most people, we talk about federalism, their eyes glaze over. they think of the essay in high school. federalism allows people to have choices and options in their lives. we have examples of that if we try to venerate that will stop in wisconsin, where the state is managing certain lambs on federal property, even though the federal government told the governor to shut them down -- the governor said, they are still operating. in arizona and utah, the governors stepped up and funded the opening of national parks, so they could keep going. we have a situation in the state of utah called sand flats. an area which was owned by blm, which they admitted they did not have the staff, the manpower,

the money, or desire to maintain or regulate. when a near riot broke out, they made a deal with the county, so the county organizes, pays for, and receives royalty from the managing of that recreation area. and it is done brilliantly. we have another in southern utah, called the coral pink sand dunes. the federal government has given over control and management of the land to the state of utah. it was recently listed as one of the hidden treasures. we can still make this work if we come up with the idea of federalism that allows different options and different choices in different areas, and allows the state to take leadership.

we can prove that state forests in idaho produce more revenue and are healthier than the federal forests next-door, simply because that process works. yellowstone was the first national park that was established. the second was in michigan. it was given back to michigan because they could better manage it. as you have seen in the shut down, they can better management. it is not the fact that we have to have -- the federal government has to control everything. when i was in germany last time, i met somebody working in the german forest service. she was a preteen when the law came down. her first trip into west berlin from her home in pottstown, she was amazed. she went into a store. all of the stuff that was there to purchase.

she went into one grocery store and realized there were five different kinds of sugar she could buy, five different brands. in east germany, you had sugar or you did not. usually the latter. she had five different choices. her first thought was, while. her second thought was, why do i need five choices? in the ideal socialist world, if they provide an adequate quantity of cheap sugar, maybe one source is actually enough. but we all know that does not work in real life. what it simply means is, you need that kind of competition to be able to provide you with what you need. the same thing happens with public land. you need different choices and different options.

i recently read a book about members of my religion who tried to live in communist east germany. as i was reading it, every last one of the concepts is that the public land policy in communist east germany is the exact same public land policy we have in the united states today. either we are wrong, or they were right. i really do not think it is the latter situation. we partner with state and local governments to open up these areas, to manage these lands. it would be the best thing we could do to actually do this in a functioning, rational, particular way. i am pleased the current secretary of the interior is not a simple -- is not a traditional administrative appointee who has risen through the ranks.

she comes from the business world of outdoor recreation, and realizes that if you are going to get something for the public land, it has to be there for people to use and enjoy. i certainly hope that mindset becomes inculcated within the federal government, because that is the solution to what we need. the purpose of land is for people to enjoy that. if we are not doing that, we are failing. having everything coordinated through one federal agency does not help that situation. if we were serious about opening up our lands for public enjoyment, we would have a partnership between state and federal government, or turn over more of these areas, or people who know what they are doing can be in charge.

we would not have the situation we are finding ourselves today. if nothing else, the government shutdown has shown why states are important, why federalism is important. the bottom line is this. federalism is the solution to our problems and the salvation of this country. in this area, more than anything else, we need to make sure we use it and use it properly. thank you. thank you for being here. [applause] >> thank you, congressman. he has graciously agreed to take a few questions for we turn it over to our panelists. is there a question or two from the audience? we will send around the microphone. >> i think your idea of change at the top, maybe, will help. it is a good one. but what do you do when you have a good department, thousands of employees? how can you turn the elephant around? >> that is the effort we are going through to try to make sure we get more authority to states. you already have the ability of the federal government to keep controlling the land, but they give the ownership and management back to state and local governments. we can push those entities. we can push to realize that standardization and a communal approach to everything, everything being owned by the department of the interior, does not work.

we need to start turning things around some more and more authority goes to local governments to do these jobs. the house has started to do this. things like our efforts with the forest bill, it is an effort to try to turn over the authority of making sure that what happens on the land is controlled from the local level. those efforts have to be done, but they have to come from congress. >> my name is howard. on the eisenhower memorial -- what is the future of that bill? >> i do not know. nor does anyone know the future of the eisenhower memorial. with the cfr failing, the authorization for site selection as well as the continuation has expired. it may come back with some limitations. the house has cut the funding for the commission. the commission has not expired, nor have any of their employees

than for load in the situation. they could be spending. they do not have any ongoing revenue coming in through the appropriations process. what i think the house has clearly said, in the committee work we have done so far, is we have to rethink this. we should have a memorial to eisenhower, but it should be done the right way. there are ways of doing it the right way that can be a whole lot cheaper. do it in a way with other memorials we have done in the past. this has broken all the rules, try to take shortcuts. it has proven to be an unacceptable solution to this point. >> please join me in thanking representative bishop. [applause] i would just like to express my

appreciation for congressman bishop's leadership on the eisenhower memorial, which was an undemocratic and an transparent selection process, until he took it on. it perhaps would have gone to completion without being addressed. so thank you. we are now going to move to a panel discussion. we are very happy to have bruce cole, a senior fellow at the ethics and public policy center. he is also the former chairman of the national endowment to the humanities. in 2008, president george w. bush awarded him the medal for his work to strengthen our national memory and make sure our countries national heritage is passed on to future generations. just this summer, he was appointed by president obama to be a member of the dwight d

eisenhower memorial commission. the third center for legal and judicial studies at the heritage foundation -- he is a graduate of new york university school of law. at heritage, he focuses on civil rights, the role of the federal court, and other constitutional issues. each panelist will speak for 10 minutes. then we will have a conversation with you, the audience. >> thank you very much. and thank you, representative bishop, for being in leadership on this important issue. one of the important things the shutdown has shown is the importance of memorials and how americans care about them. they are sacred. i started with the image of dwight eisenhower in normandy in 1963. this is normandy today. the cemeteries are shutdown. the flag does not fly. it is really a denigration of our memory -- a desecration of our memory and the brave souls

who parish to in normandy. -- who perished in normandy. there are not many presidential memorials. most presidents go home and die. i have simple memorials. but we have a tradition, starting with the great obelisk of the washington memorial, moving on to the lincoln memorial, and then to the jefferson memorial. these memorials, jefferson and lincoln are 20th century. they are superb because what they do is they elevate and show the importance of those presidents they memorialize. if you look at the jefferson

memorial -- it harkens back to the classical past. it embodies it, like all the federal architecture of democracy, and rome, and it anchors us to the past. if you walk up those steps, you are elevated. you get the sense of the gravity and importance of the person being memorialized. the james buchanan memorial is well hidden. there is a franklin memorial. actually, franklin roosevelt wanted this. he was talking to his cabinet. he said, if you want to memorialize me, make a plate the size of my desk in the oval office. they did it. then, you have memorial creep. this is the new memorial, which shows various episodes from his four terms. a group of people look like they are waiting for a men's room. [laughter] you have the kennedy center, which is itself a memorial, a kind of living memorial. i want to talk about the ike memorial.

i am all in favor. i was a great american -- ike was a great american. he comes from humble origins. here is his house in abilene. he was supreme commander of the allied forces in the day -- in d-day and the campaign that defeated germany. a great president, i believe. served two terms. a great record on civil rights. interstate highway. was very smart and savvy a politician. but he was humble. in his tomb in abilene, there are a couple of inscriptions. here is one about humility. humility must always be the portion of any man who receives the blood of his followers and sacrifices of his friends. he was a humble and modest

arson, plainspoken. -- person, plainspoken. he would be horrified by how he is about to be memorialized. a law said that an appropriate monument should be created. so far, it has been given $62 million in taxpayer money. they have about $20 million left. as well as $2 million since 1999 for staff salaries. the architect is frank gehry. he is very famous. he is one of the starchitects. he has an interesting philosophy. at the end of this paragraph, he says, i will reiterate what i have said many times. i will not face my children and tell them i have no more ideas and need to copy something. he is famous because he upsets all the architectural canons. he does not believe in the past.

his work is not rooted in anything. i will give you a few examples. here are his dancing houses in prague, a complete reversion of stability and order. here is his lewis center in case western reserve. you can see how his style is. here was one thing he tried to get done in washington, and addition that looks like it ate the philips, like a giant 747. you can see how out of sync it is with the surrounded architecture. this was actually approved by the fine arts committee and capital spending committee. here is the design for the eisenhower memorial. it is radically different than anything done before. it is postmodern architecture. it is not indebted to the past. it really minimalize his ike. these columns are eight stories high. in between them runs a scram with trees on it. -- scrim with trees on it. this file it's the mcmillan plan.

it is completely out of sync with anything grounded and anything in washington. it is indicative of the way that frank gehry builds. what it does is it minimalized ike. in the center of this memorial, in the back middle, you see ike as a dad. the original plan was to show him -- as a cadet. the original plan was to show him as a barefoot boy from kansas. none of his accomplishments are in the statue. he is morphed by the giant columns. the sense of elevation and importance and dignity, and the sense of humility that should be embodied in this memorial -- it is kind of perverted, turning upside down what eisenhower stands for. frank gehry says, this is what i do. this is what we do. i am talking your language, making it something better. i am taking your junk and making something with it. he is talking about the lincoln memorial. and the washington, and the jefferson.

can we do better? as i said, i am all in favor of the memorial. i think it should be built, but it should be built in an appropriate form. right now, the site is for acres. it does not reflect the dignity, humility, and the complement of dwight david eisenhower. here is a very simple memorial. i am not suggesting something like this be built on the grounds of the eisenhower library in abilene, but certainly we can do something that is better. we can build something that is more appropriate. that will be a credit not only to the commissioners, but to the rising generations of america. we will learn something about the intrinsic good of dwight eisenhower. >> if it is built, i do not guess we will have to worry about anybody trying to break in to that memorial during the shutdown. it will keep people out when it is open. andrew, we will let you take over from here. explicitly talk about how the park service actions on public land and at memorials perhaps violate a few laws and constitutional rights.

>> thank you very much. it has been a lot of great information here from both the congressman and mr. cole. i hope folks become more interested in our national monuments. i just spent the weekend in philadelphia. i used to work there at a first amendment group, civil rights group, overlooking independence hall. i walked around and got to see folks with their families, visiting independence hall, trying to see the liberty bell and things like that. i wanted to hear what folks were saying. the refrain was pretty unanimous, even without any -- i did not prompt. i was just listening. folks were constantly harping on how unnecessary it was to shut down these monuments, and how it seems disproportionate to what was going on in washington. i just want to talk a few minutes and raise some of the legal issues, and point out how folks that are concerned about

these issues and have instincts as to what is going on, usually your instincts are pretty right. one of the things a lot of folks are saying is, isn't it odd that the parks service seems to be spending more money trying to shut down the parks then they would be spending just letting the parks lie "fallow"? that is a legal argument you are making when you say that. because you have instincts, that in the absence of a congressional appropriation the president cannot spend money -- there is a law. it says that unless congress passes a money bill, it is actually a ellen the for a federal officer to try to do stuff or spend money. so there is a prohibition on that sort of a thing. the argument folks are making, when they say it is weird spending more money keeping things close -- isn't that

probably violating the anti- efficiency act? this is actually an issue that is sort of well within the president's discretion. the law says that without congress passing a bill, there are only a few sorts of things they can continue operating. the phrases "emergency authorizations involving the safety of human life or the protection of property." this is where we get the opm rule that says essential personnel keep working. the three branches of government each branch gets to define for itself what is necessary to protect the safety of human life and federal property.

it seems like what the parks service is saying here is the only way for us to secure this property is putting up these massive barricades. that seems odd. i do not think it would be challenged in court. i think it is a safe bet for the park service to make these calls. but in fact, there is another argument against this, which is for many years, the executive branch since the stockton memo in 1981, the omb issued a memo that said what sorts of things are essential?

we get to keep security on the payroll. park security is still getting paid. it seems odd that the park service would be setting -- shutting down a part for security reasons when the security personnel are allowed to be staffing the us monuments. that is just kind of strange. the second issue i would like to talk about is the blocking of private or co-owned property. the congressman mentioned lake mead. there was a news story about a whole bunch of folks with vacation homes in lake mead being told to take a hike, get out. they had year leases. somewhere in the least there might be something about having to have a second home since

these are vacation homes. folks are asking why are private places being shut down? when i was in philadelphia, i understand that a tavern opened in 1773 was shut down, it was frequented by some of the founders. it is a private establishment. they serve food and alcohol and is very well regulated. it was shut down, too. i also heard the park service tried to shut down the mount vernon park, and mount vernon is privately owned actually. and privately run. but the park service got a little overzealous and tried to barricade the parking lot of privately owned mount vernon. so, this seems a little bit ought to folks. i would just point out this is one of those areas where what matters very strongly are the lease agreements and the property rights of the property owners. many people own property on federal land. many people have different

businesses they run on federal land. i would encourage those property owners not to necessarily take the park service at their word. take a look at your lease and see if you have rights.

if you do, you should stick up for yourself. one of the other things i just heard about was the federal government has started to reopen certain places. the independence tavern was allowed to reopen. the statue of liberty was allowed to reopen, provided new york state would foot the bill. this does seem to be a little bit of a problem, or cause the anti-deficiency act states "absent congressional appropriation." because congress has the power of the purse. so, i do not know what the legal justification is for the department of the interior to permit states to foot the bill

when there is a law that says the federal government cannot let anyone foot the bill if there is not an appropriation involved. i would be very curious if members of congress would like to take a look at that. the third issue i would like to talk about is the first amendment. the world were to -- the world war ii vets, they fought for our country and they have a strong, instinctual response to things being shut down. i saw a sign that someone had that said "normandy was closed, too." the first amendment says that folks have free speech and the government has to have a good reason for shutting down public land or regulating public land before they can prevail the freedom of speech. there are actually federal court cases pointing out -- for example, the national wall is a traditional public forum. what that means is, when the government seeks to regulate

these traditional public forums, the regulations seem to be content neutral. they seem to be narrowly tailored to serve significant government interest. so, that is the test. we ask, is the national mall a traditional public forum? are the signs, these barricades, what side of the line do these fall on? what can the average citizen do on the national mall? there are court cases that say thinking or reading or passing out literature, those are all first amendment protected activities. it would be very strange for a

park service person -- if i am walking through one of these barricaded areas where the sign says "closed except for first amendment activities," it would be very strange if a park service person tried to kick me or anyone out. if you say i'm going to go read a book. that is a protected activity. it seems like any person can walk into these areas and there's essentially nothing the park service can do to you. there was another lawyer at the legal center here, i had him go

down to find out what authority the park service but they had. they said, no, we are not asking what people are doing. we are enforcing it to the best of our ability. [laughter] if you are a private citizen, remember you have your rights. there is a second problem. they have the signs that say "closed except for first amendment activities." but as i just explained, pretty much anything can qualify as a first amendment activity. so, you are allowed in here unless you are allowed in here. and pretty much anyone is allowed in here. so what is the purpose of the sign? i would say it is there to scare people. i would encourage people to contact the aclu if they think

that is the thing to do. the first amendment is designed for the average joe. it is not do not -- it is not designed simply for lawyers. there is a great line from justice potter stewart on the case, the case where he points out that -- a man of average intelligence shouldn't need to guess at what ordinances mean and i think that is exactly what happens. i would like to close with a couple takeaways. first of all, park rangers. what should you do if you are asked to shut down or kick people out? i would just say if there is ambiguity and what you're being told, err on the side of permissiveness, err on the side of the first amendment. look of the first amendment. look at the folks and say i am here to protect property, not to enforce political points. on the side of the spectrum, if you are a park ranger there are things you are asked to do on a daily basis -- you know, you sort of have to follow your boss when he says that. on this end of the spectrum,

you're being asked to kick out all the bull of one race, for example and clearly you do not have to do that. -- you're being asked to kick out all people of one race, for example and clearly you do not have to do that. no you're right. -- know your rights. we have the heritage guide to the constitution. i encourage folks to take a look at that. we have sections on the first amendment written by eminent legal scholars. take a look at that and learn your rights. i am not encouraging folks to go to the areas and pick up the barricades and drop them off in front of the white house. that may have additional property or vandalism concerns. but certainly, if you are simply paying no attention to the signs that may not be legally there, that, you know -- [laughter] you may be well within your rights there. so, it seems, despite what the park service is saying, it seems to be business as usual for folks who want to visit, to see our nations capitol, to see philadelphia, to visit places like lake mead or two enjoy our national -- or to enjoy our national parks. the problem is this is not an academic issue. there are finds being given out there are finds being given out. there are people being arrested. a lot of these cases would seem to be slam dunks. i would hope people would challenge these cases. it is very difficult to be on the out deceiving -- on the receiving end here. if there is an authoritative park ranger telling you to get off the property, i understand if you do not necessarily stand up for yourself. but i think there are enterprising aclu types who would stand up to this kind of

encroachment. >> hey, andrew -- there will be a hearing tomorrow, i believe in the house, on alleged infractions by members of the park service. essentially what we have been talking about is a thing called "washington monument syndrome." this is the term given to the political tactic, making, as you put it, the average joe feel the affect of a partial government shutdown, and in essence, it is making life difficult for average u.s. citizens for a political impasse here in washington. the first parks director to engage in this activity, to pioneer the idea of washington monument syndrome was george herzog, and soon after that he was dismissed. i think i am correct in saying i have investigated this -- during this partial government shutdown there have been more monuments and memorials closed man and any other shutdown in our history. the stories it you see coming out, even on social media, people posting video clips and all of this -- it kind of reveals an intimidating activity by park service personnel. certainly not all are engaging in this. and i quoted earlier a park

service employee who described it as "disgusting" that they were asked to make average american citizens feel so displaced and inconvenienced through no fault of their own. one of the major questions i am interested in here, and i want to know the opinion of each of you, is this the sort of high water mark of this sort of activity? it is obviously violating the spirit of why we have memorials and public laces like this, because the very ideals the are supposed to represent -- we have obviously seen and overstepped by this administration and the park service in particular this month. is this going to get worse with every shutdown? or can we hope that this will be the extent to which american citizens will be treated in this manner? >> with respect to lake mead again, i have heard some property owners -- there was a piece, i think, in the washington times interviewing

the property owners. the property owner pointed out they have had leases on this federal land for 30 years and that includes during the last shutdown in 1990 five, and they were not asked by the clinton administration to vacate. there is something new. i do not recall reading about any cases where ordinary folks. so angry that they started -- ordinary folks got so angry that they started violating ordinances. american citizens know their rights, but they also know they are not going to fight everybody. so, they are largely compliant even when sometimes the policies are little bad. but i can't think of any case

where there was large numbers of world war ii vets or people storming the barricades. >> i think this backfired. the flashpoint was the world war ii memorial. i do not think anybody expected this overall government shutdown. this, i think, was something new. the officials arrived to see things barricaded, and they were outraged. he went through all of this. this was their memorial. i think the reaction really set up a chain reaction where this individual would say no to memorials here, and i do not think that was expected. >> i think that's right. and the social media, for example, a highlighted the story of a man who mowed the grass on the lincoln memorial and got his push mower to mow the grass because it was not being done. that to my mind is a great act of public mindedness by a public citizen.

and of course he was asked to leave. and the 200-year-old senate clock stopped ticking. not because there was not a living breathing human being next to it that could not have a rounded, but the official winder had been furloughed. this does represent something very troubling and it reveals a new attitude, especially by the park service toward the american people. striking out against them, not as a people who have a government or our caretakers of public land, but somehow to punish americans for daring to

cut funding. it is, i think, quite problematic and i certainly hope we will never see this again in future shutdowns. now we will take your questions. again, we have mics. if you will just raise your hand and please it in a fight yourself. >> richard -- a question for bruce cole. can you give us an idea of the lay of the land of the committee you were on, the drum modest personae -- beecher modest personae -- the dramatis personae. >> i am just starting to navigate those treacherous waters now. [laughter] the bipartisan committee was gathered for senate and visn members. i've only been on the commission for a couple months or so. the other commissioners -- sort

of taking their temperature about how they feel about the memorial, adding advised by all sorts of people. it is too early to predict what is going to happen. >> i'm an intern here at heritage, actually. what i wanted to ask was in relation to something you said before the questions, mr. cole, and that was when the world war ii veterans arrived, a lot of the outrage was this was their memorial, something that belongs to them. in a lot of ways, i think the old were waking up and being outraged because they are seeing their memorials go, and that is every memorial, not just the world war ii one. my question to you is, how do

you think we can do people do start to understand this is far more than just memorials? that it reaches into every area of what is going on right now and that is the coming war of the government decreeing what goes to the people instead of the other way around nowadays? >> a little follow-up on the first question. i think the commissioners wanted to get this done and i think everybody realizes it needs to be done and there remains the question of how it is to be done. certainly the world war ii memorial, i got an e-mail from a friend of mine whose daughter is visiting normandy. there were a bunch of vets there at the same time. they climbed over the stone fences and got in, until they were shooed out by the employees. i'm surprised. what you see is these monuments, world war ii memorial especially people start asking the question, those are my memorials. why am i not allowed to visit something i actually own? why is the park south -- ways the park staff allowed to keep me out of it? i think this is a very healthy exercise and people feel their relation to the government. there was a wonderful piece by mark stein that talked about the magna carta.

he said, you know, it is true the english peasants were benefiting, had more access to the commons than americans in 2013. i think this is a really healthy discussion. i hope there are ramifications of it. >> judge peele. i am an attorney in falls church. my understanding of the antideficiency act is it is in forced by the executive against agents of the executive. can someone comment on the legal actions regarding oversight? >> right.

first of all, i would say congress -- in the office for compliance, there is the inspector general and a variety of different places. congress has the ability and congressman issa's committee, the oversight committee, there are a variety of different places were members of congress can go to request reports or to do their own investigation into expenditure. those sorts of things can get publicity and there can be political ramifications. so, number one is obviously the political process used. interims of private actions to enforce -- i don't think that there is one. but there are a whole host of different statutes the executive is subject to. the executive is the branch that

does the enforcement. so, if there is a non- enforcement issue, i know there have been other non-enforcement issues at doj that folks have raised questions about. congress again has the power of the purse to say we are not going to make appropriations to doj until they get their house in order and start applying the law where it ought to be applied. >> presumably -- [indiscernible] >> that is true. yes, if the executive -- for example, the gentleman mowing the lawn in front of the lincoln memorial. presumably there is a groundskeeper whose job that was until he or she was furloughed, and if he or she had given some indication that he or she was excepting those services, that groundskeeper would be subject to the felony provisions of the ada and would be able to challenge that prosecution or conviction in court. but i don't see -- we are asking with the obama administration

enforce the ada in other contexts, and i do not really see that. i do not see a way for an average citizen to sue the federal government for doing stuff without authorization. maybe. there are structural constitutional provisions, and in the first on case, the supreme court says the federalism provisions of the constitution do include private rights of action, so someone could test that case, but until then, i doubt that. >> around the same time that i heard world war ii vets and also the vietnam memorial -- they had to take the barricades away, i heard somewhere in d.c. they were providing the type of security that they do -- it was

some rally, citizenship for illegal aliens, and it has been hush-hush in the press. i wonder if you had heard anything more about that? >> i have not heard anything more about that. there are -- what you might he saying, gosh, it looks like certain content is allowed to be expressed but other content is prohibited. on the national mall. that would be a lawsuit if that were the case. however, the parks service has said they will allow all first amendment activities. presumably if someone wanted to have an anti-immigration rally, they could apply. however another problem with these policies is, again, another lawyer in our department asked "how can he get a permit?" the answer was, we don't know how you can get a permit.

hiding the permit russes is a problem -- the permit process is a problem in itself and another challenge. >> tea party politicians and tea party leaders making great legal challenges to these things. in isolated individual will have a hard time doing that. but tea party leaders -- what about dfw. they had lawyers. are they thinking, well, it is not going to last that long, so we might as well wait it out western mark -- waited out? >> very briefly, we do coordinate activities like this. i can mention the washington post is reporting, i think, today a federal judge has ordered the national art service to reopen in virginia based on a private suit from the lacrosse youth association.

i gather the organization sued and the judge ruled that the park service has to keep that federal land open. that is the type of thing that could keep happening. i will have to get back to you. >> hi. my name is bill moody. i'm a retired career naval officer. i served for 26 and a half years, mostly on air carriers. can you hear me? my father is a 95-year-old world war ii vets living in new hampshire. he fought in every major campaign in the pacific on the uss yorktown, commonly referred to as "the fighting lady." he is heartsick about the closing of the memorial on the national mall and he has called it a shameless act of commission. i walked down to the mall and i was stunned to see the barricades put up like strategic hamlets around each of the four war memorials.

so, i got a little closer and noticed the barricades had been wired together at the top and the bottom. and i noticed five metro police officers, some on motorcycles, some in squad cars, around the world war ii memorial. i saw five work rangers and for park maintenance officers and the maintenance offers were wiring the -- they had these big bundles of wire that they were wiring the barricade shut. i guess that gives credence to the proverbial old joke about how many park service employees it takes to wire a barricade shot. i know the answer. it is five. with wire knows pliers. -- with wire knows prior's -- wire nose pliers. by the way, a member of the park service was giving a chore to people on the outside of the barrier, pointing out different parts of the memorial.

my father could only come to the conclusion that someone in the administration -- we do not know who -- is amended dip, petty, and small. andrew, my question to you is -- based on your legal analysis, but also a policy analysis, serving in the pentagon and the white house, i know that money is reprogrammed all the time. people are deemed essential all the time. not to mention that these are open air memorials that do not require much security or maintenance. and each sidewalk on the mall had a barrier that said "closed," and people were walking around, breaking the law, with no repercussions whatsoever until you got to the strategic hamlets. why is it that the president who has the authority, who with the stroke of a pen could open these memorials, why -- this defies common sense and appears to be vindictive, petty, and small. >> white does the sunrise? i don't know the -- why does the

sunrise question mark i don't know the answer. it's definitely an raging. your dad understands this. people understand this. i will leave it to you to say more. their justification -- i know

what the legal justification is. the justification is, gosh darn it, we need to padlock these things to secure the property. from who? >> [indiscernible] what on earth is causing this inability to break the wires on these barricades and move them aside? certainly -- >> certainly, i think this administration has taken a very broad reading of what it can and cannot do.

this is a very weird reading. by gosh, we do not have the authority. we will have to shut it down. >> i know what you're talking about. i have seen that. to see that behavior, against citizens who were just touring open air memorials is mean- spirited. and that sort of mean-spirited behavior of a government towards its people is absolutely unacceptable. and when she realized it was a decision that was made. no law tells them they have to close those memorials. in previous shutdowns they were not closed. on top of that thomas -- on top of that, look at the purpose of these memorials in contrast with

their behavior. it is deeply, deeply troubling. i leave it to andrew and others to find legal remedies. we should make it clear that this is unacceptable. and in any future government shutdown, the park service or whoever is responsible for taking care of these public places cannot behave in this manner. >> it time for one or two more questions. >> it seems like a common thread shutting down the monuments. and that is an elite that does

not care about the rest of us. a political elites who do not think that monuments mean anything or do not care. and then aesthetically, artistically, they keep trying to push monuments on us that most people do not understand and do not like. they are so toned deaf to the 99% of the rest of us, it really is extraordinary. i'm curious if you share that perception and what do you make of it?

>> i think one of the things that has not been taken into account on the folks trying to build the eisenhower memorial is the tremendous groundswell of outrage. it is all over, conservative and liberal papers. big town publications, small towns. it is just huge. i think what has happened with the eisenhower memorial is there is a determination to move ahead with the plan pretty much unaltered. my view as a commissioner is the situation would be much improved by listening a little bit more, and listening to this criticism and showing a sense of accommodation. after all, it does not look like there will be any private money raised for this. so far, not much has been raised and i do not think there is any requirement in the legislation that talks about raising private money. so, this is not the staff memorial. this is not the commissioners' memorial. this is the people's's memorial. i think we should listen to a wide range of opinion and accommodate it. >> and showing respect and deference to the subject. >> yes. >> it is not as though we do not know what quite the eisenhower thought about architecture. he preferred classicism. he said as much while he was still living. one must question. clicks on the way over here, i happened to walk through -- >> on the way over here, i happened to walk through the park honoring general daniel green and there is a public notice board. on that it is announced this facility is closed due to the government shutdown of the national park service. not only did i commit civil disobedience by walking through

the park, but there were 30 toddlers with their mothers openly recreating -- [laughter] it strikes me we have to laugh at the stupid policy and try to do something. >> right. thank you all for coming. thank roos and andrew for being here. appreciate it. [applause] we stand adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> tomorrow morning, a house hearing looking at how the government shutdown is affecting the national park service. it is being held jointly by the natural resources committee and the oversight committee. coverage begins at 9:30 eastern on c-span three and www.c- span.org.

>> lou hoover traveled the globe collecting antiques and artifacts. >> among the many things lew collected throughout her life, and theyed to focus actually first started collecting when they lived in china. they collected their whole lives. probablyloped what was the best collection in the united states of chinese porcelains. while living in london, they collected. here are pieces of british pewter, which would have been used for various teapots and things. one of hero be favorite things to collect. we have numbers of friday's and nationalities and shapes and sizes. >> see it saturday on c-span. we continue our series live

monday as we look at eleanor roosevelt. at a senate hearing, small business owners talked about how the government shutdown is affecting them and their employees. their businesses rely on government contracts, tourism, or government workers. this hearing is an hour and a half. >> good afternoon. thank you all for making the effort to join us here today for this hearing and roundtable. to allow the voices of small business to be heard and partners of small business, and how this shutdown of the federal government is affecting you. of ae now on day 15 government shutdown. unfortunately, only two days

away from the possibility of the united states signaling to the world we will not pay our bills. ,he american express ceo said if the united states hits the debt ceiling and is not able to pay its debts, consequences will be immediate and dramatic. been thed states has wealthiest nation on the planet for 100 years. the united believed states would not pay its bills. if the u.s. defaults, the world financial system literally unwinds. a harvard business school professor said this week the economic risk to the average american if the government default on its debts are so great, i find it hard to believe policymakers would ever allow it. the entire crisis is unnecessary and avoidable.

yet we are here today, still facing this potential catastrophic crisis because, in my view, a small minority from one party and one house decided to hold the federal government and the global economy hostage to defund or delay a health care law they find objectionable. and health care that passed the senate on december 24, 2000 nine, passed the house on march 21, 2010, was signed into law by president obama march 23, and upheld by the supreme court june 28, 2012. hundreds of committees held hearings on these -- this law. over a span of 40 years. this committee held several hearings on this law, one just recently, where we had people come in and talk about what they liked and did not like about it. i will refer to that in a minute. at our recent hearing, we heard from one small business owner from maryland who stated he always wanted health insurance.

the desk being self-employed, i could not afford it. he went on to say the status quo was completely an acceptable. doing nothing would've wrecked havoc on my business and other small businesses like it. we had, at that time, a stream of testimony on the public record of this is owners saying how pleased they were with many parts of the law. someone record said they did not like arts of the law. we find ourselves here today because a small group could not get an amended appeal, etc., and they have now shut down the government. i wanted to give voice to small businesses today, regardless of what you are feeling is about the particular act or health in general, we want to hear from small businesses about how the federal government, when it furloughs almost 800,000 people and put a stop to contract, projects, etc., how it affects small business. maybe there is no effect. we will hear from all of you today. i think there is. this hearing will attempt