and we work with the teachers' association in arkansas. that's where we were first incarcerated, in southeastern arkansas. and we've established a teaching curriculum on this subject of the interment of japanese

americans. and it's being taught in the little rock schools. and that's sent out the ripple effect effects there were two interment camps in arkansas. we were at a camp called gloefr and another camp called jerome. and in the middle of those two interment camps is a small town called mcgee. and they recently -- earlier this year, as a matter of fact, converted their abandoned railway station into the world war ii japanese american internment museum. it's a small museum but very comprehensive and beautifully done. so if any of you should be driving around southeastern arkansas, you might visit that museum in mcgee, arkansas.

>> what is the "status of allegiance" your musical about the internment of japanese americans. is it likely to come on broadway? flowing that, is it likely to come to dc? >> oh, yes. "allegiance" began about three years ago. we developed this musical and we developed it because we can have books and lectures and talks about the internment, which helps us understand up here intellectually. but the most powerful way to understand a story is to feel that story. and musical theater hits you here emotionally. it humanizes that story. and so we've developed allegiance and we first opened at the old globe theater in san diego a distinguished regional theater. we were greeted with rave

reviews and that followed -- that was followed by sold out houses and our run was extended another week. and we -- when we finally closed, we had broken all box office and attendance records at the 77-year old old globe theater. then we won the best musical of 2012 from the san diego critic's circle. so that all is well for the transfer to broadway. however, something urinal is happening this year. usually there are a few new plays and musicals coming into broadway and there are theaters that are dark. this year we have a plethora of musicals and of dramas trying to find a theater in broadway.

and we want -- we're particularly fussy. we want a certain size capacity theater. we're looking for a theater around 1200 to 1400 seats. and it's very difficult to come by. so we're like vultures perched on time square buildings looking down, looking for the weak ones, and waiting for them to die. >> moving on to social media, you're known as the king of facebook for everything from grumpy cats to this week, opinions on aging. what have you learned from your popularity on social media? any surprises you've discover in that world? >> let me give you a little background on what -- on why and how the social media activity started. and it's related to allegiance.

we developed this musical. we invested a lot in it, both the energies, the ideas, and the resources. but it's about something that's little known in america. and it's a rather unhappy chapter of american history. and so first of all, we had to raise the awareness because there's so many people to this day, people who seemed well informed who tell me that i knew nothing about the internment story. so we had to raise the awareness of americans about the internment of japanese americans. and then once the awareness is raised, we wanted to let them know that there's a musical on it. and there are wonderful songs, moving songs and great production numbers that are jazzy and as razmataz.

broadway mutz call numbers. one on baseball that's a real terrific number. it's relate stroont the story that's playing baseball that made us a community. that brought us all together. we developed this musical and we wanted to let people know that there is this musical and then to whet their appetite and make them want to come and see it. so the best way to do that is via social media. so i began on social media. but my base is made up of sci-fi geeks and nerds. you're there. yes, i see you. so we had to develop that. and the best way to do that, i thought, is to say funny things about sci-fi or science itself.

and then occasionally, you know, throw some serious tidbits in. and as the audience grew, i talked about lgbt equality. and suddenly the audience grew even more because there's a great overlap between sci-fi geeks and nerds and the lgbt community. and then i start ed started blo the internment of japanese americans. it kept growing and growing. that's why we began the social media campaign. what i learned is that there are millions of people out there. i had no idea it was going to grow so big. i'm absolutely astounded. i mean, you know, it's like top

si from uncle tom's cabin. "i just growed." and so what i've learned is that there are a lot of people out there that you can reach via social media and the best honey to catch those flies with is humor. something funny will always grab them. >> we have a couple of questions about oh my. tell us about the general us is of that? somehow -- the oh my has become my signature. i've been using it all of my life because it's a word that you're surprised, you say oh my. when something wonderful happens, you say oh my. and, you know, when you see a beautiful sunrise, a radiant sunrise, you say oh my! or when weland the man on the

moon, you say oh my. very handy and all encompassing word. i've been using it all the time. but i had one experience that started it all off as my signature. i did the howard stern show. yes, howard stern fans. howard stern said a lot of outrageous things. something he said, i said oh my. he had it on tape. that's all he needed. so whether i'm there or not, when someone says something outrageous, he has a button and he presses it and my voice comes on, oh my.

>> we have to have a star trek question. how did your fans embrace your coming out. >> we had wrap party, beers rolled out, pizzas brought in. people bring their lives or girlfriends or the women bring their husbands or their boyfriends with them to join us for the end of the week wrap party. first i was bringing my friends who happened to be girls. then i started to bring my buddies. one week, ron, another week there was a mel or there might be a brad.

they're sophisticated people. they said, oh, george. mm-hmm. they understood that if they talked about it, it would be damaging to my career. they're cool people. so they remained silent. occasionally i get some clues from them. when we report to the studio in the morning, before you go to our dressing rooms, we go to makeup, get him to makeup and then gather around the coffee urn and sip coffee. this particular morning i was at the coffee urn with walter and we were chitchatting. and all of a sudden, walter starts going like this -- they

go like this. i turned around and there was this gorgeous extra dress in that tight star fleet uniform. then my heart stopped and i turned around and looked at walter and walter was smiling and he went -- >> we're almost out of time. just a couple of housekeeping matters to take care of. i'd like to remind you of our speakers. goldie hawn, actress, founder of the hawn foundation. and november 11, walt bettinger, president and ceo of the charles schwab corporation. second, i would like to present our guest with the traditional national press club coffee mug.

and for the last question, tell us, are there gay vulcans, and if so, how -- how do they socialize? >> i can answer that. it's a changed world now. we have a new version of star trek. the last two movies has younger actors playing our roles. the actor who plays spock, a vulcan, is played by zachary quinto who is gay. we have an outgay vulcan and he happens to be spock. and zachary is a real great guy. and he's also a very serious actor.

as you know, he was on neros and i was mr. nakamura, the powerful, wealthy, mysterious mr. nakamura, the father of hero, who has magical powers. zachary was the villain in that. he had evil powers. after the series was cancelled, he went to new york and he'd been doing off broadway plays. and he did a very challenging role in a great american drama, angels in america, playing the gay attorney. and he was not an attorney yet, but a very important dramatic demanding role. and he got very good reviews for that. and he just opened on broadway with a wonderful actress, cherry jones, won the two tony awards

in tennessee williams' the glass menagerie. he's playing tom wingfield. he got luminous reviews. the new york times said he was the best tom wingfield that he had ever seen. and there have been many, many tom wingfields. so zach is a wonderful actor. i -- as a matter of fact, we have tickets to see him in glass ma image rhee tomorrow, as a matter of fact. we're heading to new york right after this event here. so he's a gay vulcan. that's how vulcans celebrate. they become serious actors. >> thank you. thank you for coming today. i would like to thank our press club staff for organizing today's event.

the reminder, you can find more information about the press club as well as a copy of the day's program on our website, www.press.org. thank you, we are adjourned. >> former house speaker tom foley died at the age of 84. he's a former democratic congressman serving washington state's fifth district for 30 years. he was the 57th speaker of the house of reps. the position he held the last five years in office. john boehner leased a statement that said warmhearted, tom foley endeared himself not only to the wheat farmers back home, but colleagues on both sides of the aisle that ha had a lot do with the solid sense of fairness. nancy pelosi also released a statement calling mr. foley a leader whose authenticity, dedication, and diplomacy will serve as an example to all of us who strive to make a difference through public service.

next, a discussion on how journalists are using social media. this is part of the new york press club's annual journalism conference in new york city. this is a little more than an hour. >> good morning, everyone. it's an absolute pleasure to be here. let's con golden state a.j. and the entire new york press club for what they've done. as you heard, i left columbia fumtime to go to a new role as the chief digital officer. and what we do -- i'll tell you a little bit about what we do there. but at the same time, i continue to be part of the journalism world and work in journalism and teach the class in columbia. so i'm hoping that we can continue to have opportunities

for us to interact in the journalism field. but of course i welcome you all up to the met any time that you're in the mood for some art and culture. please do come up. let me tell you a little bit about our section today. we wanted to make this as useful to all of you. it's social media wakeup call. that's something do with the timing because it's so early. but we're taking stock pof where we are and where we're going. there's so much buzz and hype about social. this is a good moment to kind of try to think through what make sense for each of us to do in our work and to get some ideas. and i hope you'll leave with lots of practical ideas about the social and mobile world after we're done this morning. but the entire section has opportunities for you to learn about the changing media

landscape. i should say that i still subscribe to two daily print newspapers. and i don't know if anybody here still does that. any two newspaper house holds still? look around you. that's great. great, daphe. what's happening in my mind is we have to think of ways to continue the support the great journalism so many of us in the room have been doing for so many years. but make it fit into the landscape that's changed so much. and one of my colleagues at columbia coined a wonderful term that some of you may have heard called the tradiginal journalim. a traditional journalist with the digital overlay. someone who has the skills and the ability to know and understand the history and the values of traditional journalism

but also know how to use new tools. we have a tweet wall i'm going to turn off because it can be distracting to have them up here. they've done a good job of putting twitter handles everywhere, including the program. even the after party venue has a twitter handle. so that tells you something about how much twitter is out there. we'll talk about other tools and other ways in which you can understand the media space. so let me just tell you a little bit about how -- what i'm doing and how it connectings to what we're all talking about. so here you see my twitter and

facebook pages have changed because it's about the museum world. part i want to make here is about branding. the social media presence is the brand you already are or the brand you want to be known for. so being very specific in your twitter bios about who you are, what you work on. what kind of tweets you do. all of that is more important. so the social media becomes part of your brand? people ask me what is the chief officer of the met do? i work with the team working on things that i'm obsessed about. video answers. geo social, location, the web, and more. i consider it to be the chief listening officer and my job is to help the entire museum get any better at digital than they

already are, which is digital already. this is bambubser.

make a note of the things you want to follow up on. i first learned about bambuser from pocket journalists visiting new york. i'd never heard of it. here we are using it at this conference. now it shows you you never know where you'll get those ideas and where you'll get the ideas from. bambuser, good question. what is that? so bambuser is a live streaming tool that allows you from your phone to live stream to anywhere in the world where you have a decent signal. it's an app that you can get. and mo will tweet out something about it so maybe you can during the break go up and ask him, how is he doing his live streaming across the world from his phone and how does he do it. you can chat with him about that. please do follow up. let me introduce you to our panelists. we have a great group of folks to help you kind of think

through what's happening in social media and how it applies to what you're doing. i'll introduce them and you can come up and walk them through some of their pages if they like. or they can talk from there. so we have stephanie haberman who's at steph lauren. please flow her. she's social and digital producer at nbc news and she's from "sports illustrated." i like her description here, breaking news junkie sports nut and theater dork. and she has a website where she has more information about her, steph.is, please welcome stephanie. he's a ceo. that makes muckrack and a shorty awards. he's a member of venture voice and a member of twitter's first name club.

a few people have their own first name on twitter. please welcome@gregory. and we have with us today karla zanoni who is the director of social media and engagement at dna info here in new york and chicago and social media chair of the new york news women's club. she's a gal about uptown. she found her dog's belly button. you can ask her about that. she wants to connect and gauge. she has an about me page. you can see how social all of these folks are in real life and also on-line. but let's start with stephanie and have her talk. but let's welcome carlisle.

hi, everyone. you, you, sorry, looking for my test. okay, cool. i'm a social and digital producer from nbc news. i work on dateline and the show known as rock center with brian williams. i did social and pr for "sports illustrated". so i worked in tv, all digital, magazines, and print in college. i'm running out of mediums to work with. my main obsession inside social media i guess. concentrated content, how we can find it, use it, approach it

without people hating us for it. it's been on my mind a lot right now because of two days ago. but the capitol hill shooting and all of that. when i was reaching out to people, a different image. we have people yelling at you and calling you a vulture all the time. it's really, really weird and strange. because if you take an image or video, the intent is for you to share it. to reach out and all of the legals and funding. you want to assume that's correct. if you share a photo and video to social, would you not want it to be as busy as possible. that's what social is. bringing the outside world to your world. even just for a moment. i thought it was so cool especially for journalism.

this is a little obvious and a little stupid. but this is the single most underused page in the twitter advanced search. you can find the most ridiculous wealth of information here you can possibly imagine. i can put our hash tag in this area and i could see everything that you're tweeting if some of you might and some of you might not. but it's the fastest way. it's the most interesting way to get information in realtime on the web. so i think it's really cooed for those who don't know those searching and want to go the easy way, albeit a little more expensive, this is an act called

jail media which is probably one of the coolest things around. you can type in any location on the globe and be like, okay, show me what's going on here right now. they will. through insta gram, youtube, twitter, flikr. anything in the social web, you can see it in realtime. to brang that kind of social mindset to a company or a producer who may or may not be the tradigital journalism thing. this is to find a way to find content if you're not as hard wired into the system as other people might be. >> you can request a demo? >> you can if you like it before you pay. they're nice guys. this is what i like in finding

content. this is some of the stuff that i found in the capital. using for broadcast. making sure nbc sports saw it. you can't see it right there. but all of this stuff. people talk all the time, do crowd sourcing make sense? do you need to have boots on the ground reporters? absolutely. but crowd sourcing is a way of getting there before the journalists get there. journalists aren't there all the time. someone is always watching. other things that are cool. the today show on nbc did

something cool this week with the whole congress shutdown. they started a random hashtag on the today show. let us know how you feel about the shutdown with the hash tag gear congress. it wasn't a branded hashtag, no abc in it, no today show. it was just dear congress. it invited people to talk. it invited people have a conversation to have a conversation they're interested -- within -- about 3:00 p.m. on tuesday, 36,000 mentions on social web. it was the top trend on twitter for 24 hours. it absolutely took off. that's a real good case for how tv can -- like so many people are saying, oh it's going to be digital. i don't think it can be.

because everybody is watchling. it's a great springboard for that. if you didn't know i what this is, it's a social aggregation platform that brings in a hash tag and twitter account. anything that you find interesting. he's genius, doing a cool project. so all it is is anyone ever use a house tag, how ss sees ss, it brings in this gorgeous images that people are pulling in all about how people in san francisco see their own town.

that is all i can think of to say in the five minutes. apologize if i babbled. good morning. >> plenty of time to ask her questions about what she's doing. i'm going to have greg come up and talk about his work starting with the shorty award. >> i had to choose between my coffee and the water. i choose the water. i might have made a mistake. anyhow, i got into social media early on which is how i got the user name. so i created my twitter account, logged in, thought this doesn't make any sense, worst anything in the world, logged out. didn't come back for nine months. i kept seeing people do more and more interesting things on social media but no way to know who you should follow based on any topic so we created the

website called the shorty awards. built the website in two weekends and launched it within 24 hours. the first website we invited people to tweet out nominations. 24 hours after launching it, it became the top trending on twitter. we realized oh, no, people are going to want to come to this thing. we dropped everything and organized the first ceremony in two months. and then it was actually at the ceremony that you saw back before twitter was all that big. late 2008, early 2009. it was on a huge growth spurt but a fraction of the size it is today, we saw that journalists were on social media before anybody else. we ended up having the knight foundation get involved with the

first 6 shorty awards. we 45d 60 become the culprit. made an amateur mistake and ran out of booze in the press room and found out that journalists early on liked to drink and tweet. we couldn't do anything about the first issue. but about the second issue with the tweeting edition, we built muck rack which was the first site ever back in 2009 to let you see all the journalists on social media. we talked to journalists back then. they would apologize for being on twitter. they say i know i should be working and i should be doing a story. but twitter is interesting. it's fun. i'm using. it and now i'm sure probably hear that they apologize they're

not on twitter. there's few that haven't gotten denied yet, knows they should be. why be more and get more into it. so it's been this kind of a complete shift in the medium. and it's really revolutionary in that it's the first time ever journalists could write anything without going through an editor, door that and not get fired in publisher. so as muckrack, what this page brings together is it shows you what links are tweeted the most by journalists right now. so we have a team of editors. they verified over 15,000 journalists who signed up for muckrack. you can see with each one r, it not only gives you the tweet but the team writing the tweet. you know what's being said without looking at anyone else.

who is saying it. is it someone who covers the fees, etc., makes it easy to connect to your colleaguings. there would be a lot of people here from the a.p. this morning. you can see from any publication, we had a page that listed out all of the journalists in that publication. it ranks them by how many followers they have and we did this to the serve a competitive spirit. often the interns end up on top, not the editor in chief. the racers have the most followers. below that, you can see which stories of the a.p. are being shared the most by other journalists on twitter right now. so it's a new of all of your content, what's doing the best on social media among other journalists. a few other tools on muckrack.

muckrack is free to use. we have a bunch of tools that you can use. it just takes a few minutes to sign up. >> you're showing people if you can go back, the a.p. story. what's being discussed by a.p. reporters is different from the leader board of all journalists, right? that's what's happening inside that? >> that's a great point. and with the rest of muckrack, it's what journalists are talking about on twitter is often very different than what the general public is talking about on twitter so a new way to get insight to what your colleagues are saying. you can do searchs. you can also search to see hey, what other journalists are talking about the new york press club or talking about what's happening in college today or a niche topic like a given bill or something going on in local government.

>> i'm going very old school. my notes are on a cocktail napkin to prove to you that we use pens and papers. i'm the director of social media and engagement. for folks who aren't familiar with us. and i hope as new yorkers you are familiar with us, we are a hyper local news site here in chicago and hopefully beyond and in the coming months and years. and what we do is really create and tap into communities throughout urban settings. what that means for our journalists is figuring out once we're on the ground in the neighborhoods we cover which is all of the neighborhoods in new york and chicago proper. and really build the relationship that they've developed on the ground and take

those into the virtual world. the way they do that is through some tools like, you know, obviously twitter, facebook, instagram. all sorts of social media platforms we've heard about quite a bit. we want to take social media beyond a broadcasting platform. one of the beauties of social media is it's a two-way conversation. some of the errors of traditional journalists on social media in the beginning is using it as an rss feed replicating what they were putting on in print. and on their website and pushing out all of that content. but there's this dual conversation that's coming on social media. that's something really new. in the past, for me, i know, i have only been a journalist for a little more than a decade, it

used to be that maybe i would be lucky and receive a letter to the editor about one of the stories. had my fingers crossed that somebody read the stories that i reported on. whether it was good or bad feedback, i was excited and i have a file of those letters, right. now we have instant communication. feedback, what did we miss? what did we get right. what do we need to do next the story is never static, right? we're constantly growing. just to give you a little bit of an idea of what we do, we have obviously a digital only publication. we send out weekly -- daily news let letters each day of the week except for weekends. and in that newsletter, you receive information about everything that's gone on in your neighborhood.

broader stories. you can use the old social platform, e-mail. and respond and let us know if there's something going on in your neighborhood. like i said, what we're doing right, what we're doing wrong. a point that was made, greg made it, we are looking not just at what our competitors and friends are tweeting about or posting habit, it's about dipping into the community to find out what the general public and the niche public in the neighborhoods are talking about. i have worked with the editorial team to teach them how to find

hash tags on twitter, find the topic relative to the community you're reporting on. digging deep to the neighborhoods and what they're discussing. some of the ways we do that is going to facebook groups. readit is a huge piece for us, especially in new york and chicago. there it's a this arriving community. kind of forums. i'll bring that up. so you can see here that readit has topicings throughout the world. and you can really drill down and learn what people are talking about in new york city. look to see what people are talking about in new york city

and northern manhattan. so here's a person that is writing about having been homeless once and living in a cave near the cloisters in upper manhattan. so my start at that was covering this neighborhood in washington heights. i can tell you if i were still covering that neighborhood, i would try very hard to find this person. i have had numerous tips on stories this kind of way or people actually reaching out to me and speaking to me on twitter, facebook, what have you. i spoke to journalists about utilizing the tools. but utilizing them now, growing your community, growing your presence, getting people to know you now before you need the story. a pet peeve of mine, bad practice a lot of us have gotten into which is oh, my god, i have

to go write about a story? i'm going to crowd source to people who i don't know who have no idea who i am. hopefully you did the work beforehand so you built that trust and you're having an authentic connection with folks. that kind of ultra conversation, i think that comes up a lot in breaking news. it's very difficult, especially when you're doing national or international. so we have the benefit of covering a niche community. it's all about relationship building. i was saying before -- the talk -- that we are all about building community. whether that's the people who live in the neighborhood, the people who work in the neighborhood, the businesses in the neighborhood. those are the building blocks of community. it's no different between relationship building on the ground in the virtual world.

we have reporters talk about their beats on insta gram. whatever it is that your community is utilizing to communicate with, get on there. i know for myself as a reporter, it started out that folks are on twitter and facebook. and a lot of people moved turnover instagram. if i hasn't been tracking this and watching the communication that was happening, i would have lost out on a lot of stories. so it's about not necessarily building a platform and finding the trendiest thing to use, but figuring out where people are actually talking and having that kind of authentic conversation with them. so i brought up, you know, fortune buying snap chat. i could go on and on with a list of niche sites. there are interesting conversations going on. and i have to say fortune and

snapshot have given us an opportunity to tap into a community we never would have been able to speak to. primarily younger folks. facebook tends to skew a little older. those are folks that we can traditionally find at a community board meeting or a city council meeting or something like that. but it's been interesting to be able to learn more from the younger crowd on these trendier sites. and that's why it's so important to be conscious of them and trying to just learn what everybody is just using. >> can you talk a little bit about how you train people how to do this. not everybody trained to do this. >> we do -- i basically work with a social media editor in new york and a social media editor in chicago. we do constant training. the editors are trained to know the ins and outs of all of the

different platforms. on a daily level when we're going over pitches and discussing what a story is going to look like throughout the day, really the editor's job is to say, you know what? this would go very well. this would be great if we told the story using some feedback from facebook or insta gram or something like that, really packaging the story that way. we do training. there is nothing that can replace one-on-one training. we have folks coming in probably once a month, once every six weeks. and we take a specific social media platform and discuss what the best use strategy is for all of that. i can tell you in the next few weeks i want to have our journalists come in and talk to them about google plus. which, you know, i go to these conferences all the time and google plus is like -- it's the pink elephant, nobody wants to talk about it. i tell you if you're ignoring

google plus right now, i think you're going to be sorry in the coming 12 months, 24 months. folks have been saying that for a while. i see it really growing. especially if you have any involvement on the business side of your site, google plus is a very important piece is your entire social media strategy. not only to tackle communities there, but also to get eyeballs on your site. >> thanks. let's get questions from you folks. yeah, to the mic, do you mind? >> i heard you talking about hashtags, jimmy fallon and justin timberlake spoofed about

hash tags. what's the proper use and what's the misuse. what's the proper use and why do we use it? >> sure, i'll take that one. hash tags are an interesting beast. i try to avoid the use as much as possible. you find if you search twitter, if you search date line or hash tag date line, you get the same answers because that's how twitter works now. i work on dateline nbc. i didn't mention it earlier. woops. i use hash tags so people sharing and finding our stuff is good for -- i'm babbling. sorry, hash tags are good for discovery. but when you hash tag the word 23rid, it's useless.

the only things you should hash tag are things surrounding an event, something unique. if you're trying to bring all of the conversation in to one place, for instance, a big breaking news story that everyone is starting to use the same hash tag about it. if people are like a tv show, it's really -- hash tags are very, very big in social tv. and i really think those are the biggest cases for hash taggs. other than that, you're like tgif so you're hoping more people will see your tweets, it's ghon 30 seconds. gets lost in the clutter. >> a good example right now is if it weren't for hash tags, you can tweet about this. we can find each other's tweets. should we search new york press club, nypl, etc., etc. they put a hash tag around this which by the way it's not

tweeted, hashtag nypc 2013. pc -- i thought it was library. is twitter finally adopted it. so if you do tweet a hashtag, it becomes a link. if people click on the link, it gives you the search results for the hash tag. if you're tweeting about something that's focused that a lot of people are, you're providing your followers with an easy way to find out more about

it. >> the other panelists said a lot of what i would have said. i loved that video. i thought it was hysterical. i do think there's an overuse and there is some -- if the journalist, i'm forgetting his name right now over at "the new york times" who really sort of -- thank you, dan victor. >> if anybody could tweet a dan victor now. he's very anti-hash tag. he wrote an entire piece on that. were it not for hash tags, i personally and the reporters i worked with would have never been able to get -- tap into a stream of the community that i'm talking about. so i stress the judicious use of it. an occasional funny tweet with a hash tag is perfectly fine. but when i see somebody who

has -- you like to talk about making your tweets blue. if you have a hashtag or a url or whatever it is, it lights up and it hyperlinkings. you have one black character and everything is blue, its's pointless. judicious use is the best thing. >> something i wanted to bring up. was anybody on twitter last night at all? did anybody see the hash tag game? people were adding a word and tweeting a movie. clear and present carlos danger, for instance. it's an example of how even if it's something silly and a joke, sometimes hash tags can bring people together on an event that

you wouldn't have otherwise even if it's a joke. this question is geared toward karla. i'm in the process of covering the west bronx and i've found that there's very limited social media use in the west bronx. and i want to know from you, are you finding that as well. if that is the case, what did you -- are you using social media to source out people? or is it not useful in that case. and i'm assuming that the reason we have social media is it's not digitally forward perhaps in parts of manhattan. >> it's an interesting question. but i would challenge it. several years ago when i was covering northern manhattan, the way i got into all of this, i had a blog about upper manhattan. they said there's a digital

divide. don't you know about that. the majority of people living in washington heights speak spanish, i was tweeting in english, things like that. but what i found was like i said was growing that ugsds iz relationship from the ground, it seized a little bit more presence. i tell them to ask sources where they're active on-line. and you may be that you don't have critical mass yet. i'm going to guess there is something there. it may be that folks are on instagram. in washington heights, instagram is enormous. nobody is on facebook, or they're private. they don't share publicly. it's a matter of using your reporting tools and finding

where folks are communicating. >> one more question -- would you invite a reporter to start a facebook group or -- >> sure, sure, no reason not that. promote it on your home page. i keep going back to the community boards. ask them if they want to join it. 10 people, 20 people. get the e-mail address. ask what e-mail address they use to set up their facebook and send it out and see if you can spark conversation. i think having that conversation now before you ask a question about a story you're working on, it will yield greater results. >> twitter is at at by dan victor. republican leaders are promoting a hash tag so it should all be

over soon. this goes to stephanie. i noticed when you put up the search for the tweets about the woman who was shot in the white house, one of the things that caught my eye is a tweet that said active shooter still on site. i'm indoors now. the only thing that turned out to be accurate and we don't even know this is i'm indoors part. how much do you cut through the noise about how much the national media has gotten so wrong. >> something important to remember is breaking news hasn't changed, it's just public now. breaking news is messy. the term breaking news is

overused now. that's a different story altogether. the only way to cut through the clutter is to know who to trust. understand that someone in that explanation heard 13 gunshots and they're sheltering inside the building might not know if the shooter is active or not. they assume it out of fear. you can't automatically jump to cop conclusions they're correct. just because something is on social doesn't mean that it's true. you need to go through the same channels and be a boots on the ground reporter. go to the proper authority. if you -- as a journalist, goent to another journalist. go to the authorities. go to the police, go to figure out what's going on for yourself. don't just trust this. and if you're -- if you don't have that capability, know who

to trust. be right, but be fast. because everyone has a twitter account. it's public, everyone thinks just because they get tweets it's a journalist. it's the verification of the tweets you find that makes you a journalist. you just have to know, i guess, that you know who to trust. >> hi, i'm a columbian journalism student. i wonder from your perspective, do you think that social media is disrupting the business of journalism? or how do you see it playing into how the future of journalism. the monetary part of disseminating information, sorry.

>> i think that even prior to social media, we all know that the business of journalism has been disrupted in a really big way. social media cuts both ways. there's both opportunity and challenges with that. but what's exciting about that, and you know, starting with twitter. but really all of the platforms is they're based around writing and based around what's happening now. both of those are skills that journalists have always had. you're trying to get more video with the sign and instagram and all that. that is something that journalists have been doing for a while. so i think for journalism, it's the big opportunity and there's a distinction between the journalist and also the media companies where for media

companies, they've got really big challenges with them. distribution works completely different. you don't necessarily wake up in the mornings and type the url of a news site. you check your feeds and see what stories come to you, which is media companies have done a good job. getting in, the fees have prospered. the median companies that haven't figured it out. they struggled. but then they found a way to build a big following if you become very creditable through hardwork and have people following you, you can go off anywhere and have your power, your audience. that's a lot now what journalists get hired for and what they're relied on for and the journalist is a real asset. the journalists was more disposable, right? if they're fired if somebody else takes over their fees. you see the biline, you open up the paper and see the same

column where it was. i think for journalists getting on it it's going be a really good thing to have these channels that you can control personally and have a direct relationship with your readers on it. >> can i add one thing? i completely agree about the focus on the journalist rather than the publication. there are a lot of opportunities for the journalist. some of the stuff i see right now that's fascinating in terms of the publications are "the wall street journal" and "the new york times" and how they're treating social media around their pay wall. i was at another nyu conference last month, i think, and some of the folks from there were talking about actually targeting key social media followers. and allowing them to break through that pay wall if they believe -- if "the wall street journal" or "the new york times" believed that the benefit of

having that key influencer, that's a popular tool. i'm not sure how it's work right now. they're playing with us. it has a lot of potential if done correctly. so i think rather than social media in my opinion. rather than social media being a negative disrupter for traditional journalism, i think it could be an amplifier if used correctl correctly. right now we're in an in between state where we're not quite sure where it will go. but there's a lot of potential in that joint relationeship between the tradition gnat and the social. but, yeah. >> i'm the contributing writer, forbes.com. kwurs you for you to share about what the day is like for each of

you. how do you interface with the material. >> i'll start first. my day is probably completely different. we probably all have three completely days. i work in the single most traditional way that i can. i'm in a very old and large newspaper organization with a 20-year-old tv show. >> i do breaking news. but i do a long form news show. i check the social feeds for people contacting us directly. we get it every day with people saying, here's my family's

story, can you help us? because dateline is a news magazine focused on justice and crime. so people plead with us all the time. i think, okay, this is a story we can tell. see if we can tell this story. we find a surprising number of our stories, they may not make it to air. but we'll at least start pursuing them because of social media. it's become very, very, very popular. meeting with stories, i woem with brucers every day. i work in the organizations that not everyone is socially forward yet. but they're getting there. we have a twitter account use in the show. that was developed because most of our producers and senior producers, they might not be on twitter yet, because they're not comfortable with it yet.

a lot of them come to me all the time, i'm behind the camera for a reason. it's slow and steady. that was the dateline producer last night. we switch their picture. we talk about their account and their show and they can interact with people despite they may not be dingalty -- >> each week you change the person. >> an interesting way to keep everything involved. >> it's in -- part of it is to bring them to the station even if they're aide sant. four times out of ten and sometimes takts a couple of times of them being there. they said no, that was fun. can you help me count at twit ere. he said this is in good taste, i

thought it was cool. let's to that. it's going to real world situations the world. shows we work on, we come up with them and we start reaching out. it can be anything in a day. we aired a report that we were following a family for six years. a lot of long term planning. how we can be now and in the minute when a lot of the time the show isn't. >> for me, i make a cup of coffee in the morning.

that's the only consistent thing i do every day. running a company is you're pulled into something different everything single day. so often times my day is kind of dictated what's coming up, putting up prior, then i try to focus my time on meeting with people who use our product, both muckrack and the shorty awards. a lot of times thinking about what products are we facing and what products could we build a presence. one thing i learned in social media is that things change every day. if you stand there with new platforms that have come up in the last year with insta gram and some of the others, but also the platforms that are over 5 years old like twitter and

facebook that they're being used in different ways today than they were a year ago or five years ago, three different teach -- different features. more people are using them. what does that mean? for me it's a challenge to think have we run what we have today is well. but also knowing what we do today is going to be relevant in a year or two. and what insights can we get to think about what kind of a new product can we build into tomorrow? i use that second cup of coffee. >> the consistent thing for me is when my husband makes me my coffee. i think i have it better. i only recredibilitily switched into this role. so my role is much more like yours in the beginning. a few months ago, switched here, which is really a blend of editorial and the business side

of things.

another piece i wanted to bring up is i think that a lot of social media is a blend of the business side as well as the editorial. i try to protect that line for myself and also my other social media editors. i would be remiss not to bring it up. because ultimately you're trying to get the most eyeballs on your story as possible. it goes back to building the

authentic relationships and being honest. gone are the days when people are doing shady things. buying likes on facebook, buying fall lores and all of those things, you can have a huge amount of followers and have no quality there. i want to make sure now that i'm more on the business side making sure we keep up that integrity and teaching both of our marketing department and editorial department how to make sure we keep the quality there. it's very easy to slip to something not so great. >> we've got a very short question because i'm almost out of time. >> i'm sylvia cunninghamm, i'm at the university of connecticut. as a student, we have the propensity to not have face-to-face conversations and our teachers are yelling at us like pick up the phone, like stop e-mailing, you know? so how -- is it possible you talked about the quality of

social media using it correctly is it possible it's just too much of it. i have a image of reporters getting in the car tweeting, instagramming or tweeting and they miss that ten houses are on fire because they're so involved with their phones. is there too much and how do you sort of get past that? >> i think the answer to that is absolutely yes. you have to be very, very careful. your question drives at the problem that a lot of folks have trying to keep up with everything and many people carry around two cell phones. it's just really hard. the amount of material is just mounting. twitter took 3.5 years to hit the first billion tweets. now it hits a billion tweets every 2 1/2 days. youtube, 100 hours of video

uploading every minute. it's the safest place to put your top secret video. no one is going to see it. >> unless it's a cute cat. >> what i would suggest is for all of us to think about how do we connect what we're doing on social with all of the other stuff that we need to do. and looking up from what they're doing and looking around is going to be very, very important for us as we're doing things. i want to give you a couple of quick things that you might want to note. the service called top seed, which is a way to see all of the tweets you want to in one place. so, for example, you can tell that in the last hour we had 376 tweets, yesterday, 426. by the end of the day, we can imagine we're going have 500, 600 tweets. look at the tweets or a photograph if i wanted to see what people are posting from our session. so think about this tool if you

haven't used this already. and the other tool i was going to mention, people use this already. if you're trying to get a sense of social and you're not comfortable with it, the tool that i use for the first thing in the morning for getting information is flipboard. it works on ipad or iphone or an on droid. you can get a sense of what your community is sharing. you can see it in a very visual way. i like that. any flipboard users here? there are other tools like that as well. we're out of time. i would like to thank our wonderful speakers. at gregory. and karla zanoni. we'll see you soon.

but how do we take the education part. to we lead. does digital journalism education lead, set examples, who does it follow? >> we're looking at bioclear. very clear about what he does. social media news new york. it has his phone number, not just the e-mail address. he's very, very accessible. >> i think journalism school is incredibly important. the one thing it teaches you and it taught me and one thing it will always teach is how to talk to people and how to tell stories. how to tell the stories will change and sometimes it doesn't change quickly enough. sometimes it's not nearly enough. when i was in school, i learned for a semester how to use final cut.

that's very useful. it's a completely different world. so a lot of it is real world education. when i was in school three or four years or so ago, so new, i didn't major in journalism. i technically did. i majored in the indiana daily student. it's important to get involved in student applications and do as much as you can in the real world as often as you can. and i think just send them out to the real world, let them go and learn on the scene, personally. >> yeah. i was a philosophy major. so i didn't see it firsthand, but we have hired some columbia journalism school grads and other journalism school grads too. and and i think similar to what stephanie is saying it's

powerful. never know how much it is but you know thousand write. it shows through on twitter, facebook, primarily writing platforms and now that more multimedia people coming into the social web and we're only going to see that trend accelerate now that people have smartphones that can handle that and the updated networks to try to catch up and knowing how to use all forms of media and create all forms of media will set people apart. >> i agree about the writing part. i went to columbia and wanted to be a long form journalist and now, you know, write 120 characters at a time. i've never regretted that, the training of learning how to be a traditional journalist. how to report how to write. how to edit.

i would say the biggest tool for me is learning how to communicate and the relationship using social media. the big pet peeve of mine, i see the incoming classes and i see them pop up and ask questions for a story i'm convince suicide due that night. i'm tempted to call the professors and say you ear not teaching this correctly. verification. knoll hough to trust is setting up a trail of the tweets of the past. the time stamp on the photo. geotagging is huge now with the new iphones and new phones that are out there, you can really get a huge amount of data from

feed feeds. was this person really in the hurricane orator nay doe? was it a photo taken five years ago and fixed in photo shop. the media may be the core. but it's exactly the same thing schools have used for years. >> we'd like to share folks to follow on twitter based on who does good interesting journalism work. go ahead and give some shout outs. a good opportunity. >> can i ask a question? >> sure. i'm an old-fashioned reporter. i like being a reporter. so far in this discussion, 2/3

of it, it's the number of tweets you get that counts. it's not the accuracy. it's not the old max of get it first. but first, get it right. you're the exception on the panel. i think it's sad for the young people here in the beginning of journalism not to know the part of good journalism is meeting people. it it's okay to count tweets and see what people are saying in the neighborhood. but there's no substitute for eyeball to eyeball contact to see whether what they're saying is true or not true. or whether it's exaggerated. to rely solely on electronic devices and so little on human contact is bad journalism. that's how i feel. and i'd be happy to hear any comment. >> still 100% correct.

[ applause ] >> we have folks we have to recommend. >> i'm so terrible in remembering names. i'm going to dodge that question and go statements. i completely agree. and the thing that i try to push our reporters and editors to do is to connect on social and take it offline. i have to say, i do see some serious challenges around that when you're doing international or national reporting. that's where verification is so, so important. i mean, trying to bill -- andy is somebody who -- there's a

name, follow andy carbon, somebody who's really shown how to do all of that. his brother as well. eric carbon. there are leaders in social media. paving the way and teaching the generation on how to use it. i agree. there's no substitution for one-on-one communication. >> i think you did say that not just getting it first, but also getting it right. >> more important to be right than first, completely. there's been a lot of panel and a lot of misdirection because people are too busy trying to be first recently. and you have to say i trust the people who are there and the people who are journalists, they do pick up and do believe you and have been working for years and years and years. i completely agree. there's absolutely nothing that

replaces old boots on the ground journalism. it will always be there. if it's not, it's a sad day for media and journalism and our entire society. so i completely agree. >> now we're ready to break because we have to get to the breakout sessions. we have a 10:45, three different sessions going on. along with the resume and portfolio review. and, so please do check that out, okay? so everybody know where they're going go. you can see the room numbers there. let's again thank stephanie, greg, and karla. >> coming up next on c-span,

president obama announces jay johnson as the nominee to head the department of homeland security. after that, supreme court oral argument on a case dealing with affirmative action. then actor and gay rights activist, george takei speaking at the national press club about issues important to the lgbt community. today president obama announced jay johnson for the homeland security secretary. if confirmed, he replaced janet napolitano to step down in august. from the white house rose garden this, is about 20 minutes. >> ladies and gentlemen, the president and vice president of the united states accompanied by mr. jay charles johnson.

>> good afternoon. everybody please have a seat. as president, my most solemn responsibility is the safety and security of the american people. and we've got an outstanding team here of folks who work every single day to make sure that we're doing everything we can to fulfill the responsibility. that means the entire government, the law enforcement, and homeland security professionals. the troops, the diplomats, the intelligence personnel are all working together. that means working with state and local partners to disrupt terrorist attackings. secure our borders, make our immigration system more effective and fair. addressing any one of these challenges is a tall order. addressing all of them at once is a monumental task. but that's what the dedicated

men and women of the department of homeland security do every day. and today i'm proud to announce my choice to lead them. an outstanding public servant whom i've known and trusted for years, mr. jay jon. now we are, of course, enormously grateful to secretary janet napolitano. she couldn't be here. she made her move to her new position in sunny california overseeing the higher education system in that great state. and i know that she's going do an outstanding job there with the incredible young people that are in our largest state. but we all deeply appreciate the job she did in the last 4 1/2 years. i want to thank rand bears for his service and for stepping in as acting secretary after janet left. thanks in no small part to janet's leadership and her team. we've done more to protect our

homeland against those who wish to do us harm. we've strengthened our borders and made sure the system better reflects our values. we helped thousands overcome tornadoes, floods, and wild fires. we worked to clean up a massive oil spill in the gulf as well as address a flu pandemic. in jay johnson, withe have the right person to continue this work. jay was a member of my national security team and he demonstrated again and again the qualities that will make him a strong secretary of homeland security. jay has a deep understanding of the threats and challenges facing the united states. as pentagon, as the pentagon's top lawyer, he helped to design and implement many of the policies that have kept our country safe, including the success in dismantling the core of al qaeda. what i directed my national security team to be open and

transparent about how our policies work and how we make decisions when it comes to making terrorist attacks, jay was one of the leaders who spoke eloquently about how we meet today's threats in a way that are consistent with our values including the rule of law. jay knows meeting these threats demands cooperation and coordination across our government. he's been there in the situation room. at the table, in moments of decision. working we leaders. he's a team playever. he helms people who don't always want to work towards a common goal. he's the member of the senior management team first under bob yates and then under leon panetta. he helped to oversee the work of

3 million military and civilian personnel across the country and around the world. it's fair to say that former secretary gates and panetta will attest to the incredible professionalism that jay brings to the job and the bipartisan approach he takes when i want comes to national security. he's earned a reputation as a cool and calm leader. jay appreciates that any organization is not greater than their people. congress ended up using the report that jay helped to craft to justify repealing don't ask don't tell. and america and our military is stronger because we did, in part because of jay's determined leadership. i know that we bring that same commitment to our hardworking folks at dhs.

jay believes in a deep and personal way that keeping america safe is upholding the civil liberties that make america great. jay tells it story of his uncle who served as a tuskegee airman in world war ii. it was a lesson jay never forgot. we must adopt legal positions consistent with who we are as americans. jay is a pretty good lawyer. he know what is that means. jay understands that this country is worth protecting, not because of what we build or own, but because of who we are. that's what sets us apart. that's why as a nation we have to keep adapting to changing threats, whether natural or man made. we have to stay ready when disaster strikes and help americans recover in the

aftermath. we have to fix our broken immigration system in a way that strengthens our borders and modernizes legal immigration and makes sure everybody is playing by the same rules. i'm confident that i could not make a better choice in jay. somebody i'm confident will be moving not just the agency forward, but helping to move the country forward. thank you for agreeing to take on this difficult and extraordinary mission. you have a great team over at dhs and i know you're looking forward to having you over there. i urged the senate to confirm jay as soon as possible. and i thank you as well as your family to agreeing to serve. your wife susan and your daughter natalie couldn't be here because they're visiting jay junior at an accidental college which by the way i went to when i was 2 years young. a fine college. i couldn't be there to say hi. but your son chose well.

so, ladies and gentlemen, i'd like to invite jay johnson to say a few words. hopefully the next secretary of department of homeland security. [ applause ] thank you very much, mr. president. alsz you noted, my wife and two kids are not here because it's parents' week at occidental. thanks to the cost of the nonrefundable airline ticket, they could not be in two places at once. they wish they could be there. thank you for the tremendous honor of the nomination and the trust you have placed in me to carry out the large support for the secretary of homeland security. i left government at the end of

last year and was settling back in to private life and private law practice. when i received the call, i could not refuse it. i'm a new yorker. i was present in manhattan on 9/11 which happens to be my birthday. when that bright and beautiful day was a day something like this was shattered by the largest terrorist attack on our homeland in history. i wandered the streets of new york that day and wondered and asked, what can i do? since then, i tried to devote myself to answering that question. i love this country. i care about the safety of our people. i believe in public service and i remain loyal to you, mr. president. if confirmed by the senate, i promise all of my energy, focus, and ability toward the task of safeguarding our nation's national and homeland security. thank you gerngs sir.

>> on the next washington journal, jason ficker in of george mason university and rudolph pinker discuss the recent government shutdown and debt limit debate and what could happen in early 2014. then john kingston lookled at the 40th anniversary of the opec oil embargo and what the cartel's role in the oil today. plus your e-mails, phone calls, and tweets. washington journal, live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> for guys like us who have been in the game for a long time, we already know there are land mines out there. that you have to be careful about how you manage your way through these things. issues to deal with the abortion

issue in the united states, guns, race, arab-israeli relations and other countries and i lived in other countries and worked with cartoonists in other countries. they have their own redlines. and also what a cartoonist can get away with in san francisco and getting away in parts of alabama. >> there are fewer journalists period. it's just generally not a conservative thing. journalism tends to draw, i would think, it would be fair to say, people who are more liberal. >> they say that bad news is kind of good for cartoonists because it's -- it gives us a lot of fodder. but i would rather -- i would rather work harder and have less bad news and know we were going in the right direction and i think we kind of -- we're not going in the right brex right now. so i feel very -- i feel very like it's a real calling for her to get my opinions out there.

>> this weekend on c-span, it's not all fun and games for editorial cartoonists, hear why. saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span 2's book tv. on the line of outlaw jesse james. saturday evening at 7:45. and on c-span 3's american history tv, four decades after watergate, a look back at nixon and the saturday night massacre. sunday afternoon at 1:00. the u.s. supreme court heard oral argument tuesday on the 2006 ballot initiative that bans michigan schools from considering race and gender from their admissions process. the question before the court is whether the ban violates the 14th amendment's equal protection clautz. next the oral argument to the case. this is an hour.

>> the argument next today in case 12682 the coalition to defend the affirmative action. >> the issue in this case is whether an michigan constitutional division violates equal protection. for two reasons, the answer is no. first, unlike the law at issue in hunter and seattle, section 26 does not repeal the anti-discrimination law. it repeals preferences and that's in an impediment to preferential treatment. >> nothing do with anti-discrimination. it will have to do with the remedy. why isn't this identical to seatt seattle. >> it isn't because of the remedy issue. in seattle they were trying to create in their courts equal educational opportunity to

impose a remedy -- >> you think the proponents of affirmative action are attempting to do the same thing. one of the bill sponsors here said this constitutional amendment will bring back desegregation in michigan. it appears it has done just that. >> first on the merits, under greweder, that cannot be the benefit. it's the benefit under goal and diversity. it's a forward-looking action. not a back ward looking action to remedy past. you use the preferences simply to get the benefit. what has or has not happened here, two thoughts on that. first we have the statistics we discussed. not clear if the diversity on michigan's campus is going down. the main point on that is not

those numbers but the fact that there are other things that the university of michigan could be doing to achieve diversity in racial ways. >> i thought in gruder, all of the social sciences had pointed out the the fact that all of the efforts had failed. one of the reasons why the particular law school plan in michigan was upheld. >> social science evidence goes both ways. i want to focus on the university of michigan. two things that they could be doing my right now to get them closer to the race neutral goal. the first thing is they could eliminate alumni. other schools have not. it tilts it way from the minorities. the other one is important -- >> wonderful for minorities that they finally get in, they finally have children. and now you're going do away for that preference for this -- >> it seems that the game post keeps changing every few years

for minorities. >> given the makeup of michigan right now, the playing field would be going the other way. the economic diversity. in the university of michigan, a stat in "the wall street journal" if you measure that by pell grants, the number of students eligible for those. the number of students who have pell grants are half what it is like berkeley and the university of texas at austin. the university of michigan could be trying harder. but the point is to get into a debate whether preferences are a good or bad thing because that's not what the case is about. the question is if the people of michigan have a choice through democratic process to accept this court's invitation in gruder. >> in seattle, can you -- i have difficulty distinguishing seattle. one vakt chul difference is that there was a school board there

directly elected school board elected for a short term of years. here's the board of trustees. is that a distinguishing factor in the case in which the principle distinction could be made? >> it's a distinguishing factor. in sticking with how hard is it under the new political process. the chart we have on page 17 explains how much different it is now. the more fundamental basis is to say what seattle is about. if you're going to indulge me, seattle could mean one of three things. one you should fully reject and the other two are possible interpretations you could adopt. when seattle talks about racial classifications, it focuses on laws that have a racial focus. equal protection is about people, not about laws, but even more fundamentally, that can't be the right test.

at a minimum, that part of seattle has to go. if you have race neutral clause, it mirrors the concept of the federal clause, it is subject to strict scrutiny because it's a racist focus. that right. and one would be the incremental change. the other would be a more aggressive change. the incremental change would be to drept the classification in seattle. and two, removed that issue to a higher level of the decision-making process. and because michigan's law required equal treatment to eliminate preferences, not an anti-discrimination law, that's a way to keep seattle and hunter as a viable doctrine. >> i don't see the dinks.

>> bussing was a way for blacks to get into schools. that's the way it was pitched. affirmative action has the same aim. we've said that in fisher. it should be to diversify the population. so it favors diversity as opposed to desegregation. >> a difference between favoring diversity as an abstract on campus which gruder allows and remedying past discretion as we're in seat we're in a beyond seattle world now. >> there's no segregation in seattle? >> that's correct. because at the time of seattle's decision, we didn't have parents involved. so there wasn't a strict scrutiny test being applied to the bussing program. so you didn't have to go as far as you would today if you wanted to uphold that same bussing program. but what type of --

>> three things. one was -- the first were rejects. >> a racial focus. >> the second was incremental improvement in the democratic process, the democratic response snblt responsiveness i should say? >> that plus repealing the anti-discrimination laws. >> the third way? >> that's to look at racial focus and say that's wrong. maybe the whole doctrine needs to be re-examined. maybe to do that you can look at what seattle and hunter are really doing which is falling right into the washington davis line of cases. both could be resolved by saying there's an impact. and, two, given the facts and circles in 1969, akron ohio in 1982, seattle, washington, there was discriminatory animus based on race. if you did that, you could see the cases with washington davis and the entire line since that time.

>> in this case, wasn't decided. wasn't there a racial animus that the reason for proposition 2 was to reduce the minority population? the appeal didn't get to that. there was a claim. >> there wasn't a claim. your honor, there was a decision. the district court is clear on this. this is a summary judgment posture. there wasn't even a question of material disputed fact with the respect to intent at pages 317 to 319 of supplemental attendance provision. that's because the nomination included so many nondiscriminatory inclulgss including the belief of some that preferences race. the alternative is a better way to achieve the diversity that results in better outcomes of minority students.

some believe the references result in mismatch. >> that seems to me a good dinks for hunter and mulke versus rightman. but not necessarily the distinction in seattle because seattle you could argue, well, there are other methods that are less racially divisive. >> and i think -- i would like to come back to wegman. that puts us in the framework too. if you have any questions of what seattle meant, the latest to look is the position in cuyahoga falls. because in cuyahoga, the court mentions the evil of the discriminatory event. and i want talks about the decision maker's statements as evidence of discriminatory intent in the hunter case in page 195. if you look at cuyahoga falls, it's done some of the work for you if you take the conservative route. >> i don't see how the argument is any different here.

ed. >> one of the main ones, some of them cared about their children not leaving -- not having outsiders come in. i mean there's always voters that have good intent. >> you don't dispute that point. here you have a district court holding that there's not even a material question of fact with respect to animus because there are so many reasons that could be advanced, legitimate reasons about mismatch and the benefit of races. >> seattle as well. >> much harder in seattle, your honor. to fit rightman in the discussion in a more conservative way, the one to preserve that as a doctor is to think about how they would come out out of that test. the local level which repealed

that. the doctrines have not been invented yet. what the court did was relied on the california supreme court's finding that there was animus in striking down the anti-discrimination laws. i think if you view hunter and seattle similarly in cases that you repeal an anti-discrimination law as to one that requires the equal treatment, that's the narrow way and a way to allow those cases to survive, yet to distinguish section 26. at one point we haven't discussed much is the democratic process. and it's important that i emphasize that, obviously, the use of race-based and sex-based preferences in college education is one of the most hotly contested issues of our time. and some believe that the preferences are necessary for campus diversity. others think it's not necessary and we would have a better world

if we move past the discussion on race and placed it on race neutral criteria. >> i want you to go back to the first thing you said because i didn't get your point. the question -- what impact has the termination of affirmative action had on michigan, the enrollment of minorities in the university ofmyny? do we have any clear picture of that? what effect would the appeal of affirmative action -- >> yes, justice ginsberg, we have a muddy picture. the first full year after section 26 went into effect. 2006 to 2008. the underrepresented minorities as part of the interim freshman class at michigan as a percentage changed little. then it gets very difficult to

track. because flowing the u.s. census lead in 2010, the university of michigan stopped requiring students to check only the single box to demonstrate what their race or ethnicity was and move to a multiple check box system. the campus of the university of michigan, those numbers don't take into account that people who before were able to check a single box now could check multiple boxes. if you fold in the multiple check box students, the number of minorities on campus comes up higher. we don't know what those numbers are. you might have a student that might be white and asian and would not be an underrepresented minority. looking at the single checked box. >> what do we do in california? >> from california, their attorney general has shown another state with a similar

proposition has shown the direct dramatic drop. >> the statistics in california across the 17 campuses in the university of california system showed that today. it's better on 16 of the 17 campuses. not at berkeley. underrepresented minority students have higher gpas and they have graduation rate that's 20% to 25% higher than it was. you can see similar effects in texas in the top 10% program before it was modified and not only did it have those positive impacts but it increased the minority performance and the socially economic disadvantaged high schools and the students say i can only get to the top 10% of my class, i could be in the texas university at austin.

we agree that diversity on campus is a goal that should be pursued. what the experiences have demonstrated is there are good positive reasons they might want to try race control alternatives. >> why is it okay to have taken away -- not okay to have taken away the decision to have bussing from the local school boards. from the people on the grounds. because the general population has feelings about many things. but the only decision that they're taking -- the educational decision that they're taking away from the board of regents this one.

race and everything else. on pagewhy this court 538 recognized "a distinction between action that distinguishes on the basis of race. " section 26 falls into that latter category.