these refineries are configured to run heavy oil. right now they're getting that heavy oil from venezuela, mexico and california and frankly, when you compare it to those types of oil, the g.h.g. emissions are identical. it's important to remember at the start. 80 to 90 percent of the emissions produced and using barrel of oil come out of the tail pipes of vehicles. .....

rightt but this economy now is very, very dependent on oil and gas. i cannot imagine a world where those products were not available to american consumers. [indiscernible] ofost: we are running out time here, capitol hill hearings in a moment, but what have you heard from the obama administration on when this state department report will be finalized? guest: we do not really hear much more than anyone else years, to be honest. our ceo was meeting with the state department last week. what we are looking at is we expect to see a final environmental impact statement issued by the state department

sometime towards the end of the year. if you just look through the process, we are probably looking at something around three months or four months, give or take, is issued.inal eis sometime in the first quarter, early in the second quarter next year, i would expect a decision on this. >> we want to thank our guest -- host: we want to thank you for joining us for joining us from cushing, oklahoma this morning. appreciate your time. guest: happy to do it. thank you, greta. host: thank you for welcoming us to the terminal there and oklahoma, enbridge, one of 13 companies operating stories and oklahoma.ge that ends the coverage this morning on "the washington journal." we will bring you up to capitol hill, where the senate finance committee is expected to hear

from hhs secretary kathleen on capitolho will be hill for the second time to testify about the affordable care act and healthcare.gov. live coverage, here on c-span. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] http://twitter.com/cspanwj [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013]

morning, health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius is back on capitol hill this morning to answer questions from senators this morning. questions from the senate finance committee and the committee chair, max baucus, the chief author of the 2010 law. questions are expected about the website rollout and potential security risks for consumer private information. as you know, she testified one

week ago to the republican run house commerce committee. lawmakers from both parties have an traduced rival bills that would let people retain their existing health insurance policies but administration officials refused to state their views on those proposals on tuesday.

>> we will come to order. in february, 1950 eight, against the backdrop of a divided nation , a junior senator from massachusetts spoke at a college in baltimore. the young senator, named john kennedy, said -- let us not despair the act. let us not seek the republican answer or the democratic answer, but the right answer. let us not seek to fix the blame for the past, let us accept our own responsibility for the future.

". more than 55 years later, jfk's advice reigns true. it is important to remember now as we implement the affordable care act. five weeks ago the end -- the administration launched www.c- span.org -- launched healthcare.gov. it was to be the premier website for the affordable care act. needless to say, it has been a rocky rollout. problems have plagued the let me say right off the bat that this is unacceptable. it has been disappointing to your members of the say that they did not see the problems coming. secretary sibelius, last time you came before this committee i used to year -- two words about my worryrds to relate

over the law's implementation. make no mistake, i believe in this law. i spent two years of my life working on the affordable care act, there is nothing i want more to succeed. that ifgo i warned implementation did not improve, the marketplace might struggle. other senators voiced similar concerns. updates on theor market places, the responses we got were completely unsatisfactory. we were told multiple times that everything was on track. we now know that that was not the case. forward. time to move deservecretary, you credit for coming before the american people in accepting the responsibility of the websites problems. the focus is where it should be, on the future. it is clear to me that you're as hard as you can to fix healthcare.gov.

keep that it. when this law was created we made a promise to the american people. a promise to fix a broken system . a promise to ensure that all americans have access to quality, affordable health care, we made a promise to make sure that no one ever went broke just because they got sick. you must make good on that promise. some people have called for your resignation. we cannot fix the blame for the past. you need to stay at hhs and help get the marketplace working. recently you said you expected the website to be running smoothly for the majority of users by late november. there is no room for error. beat,st beat, and i say that deadline. why? these marketplaces open the door to quality health insurance for millions of americans. 7 million americans will get

insurance for marketplaces and 2014 according to projections. 10 years in, that number will grow to 24 million. that is no question that cannot happen unless the marketplace runs at full speed. i believe that you will fix the problems because you know how critical the marketplaces are. for the first time ever consumers having guaranteed access to high-quality insurance. consumers will never be forced into bargain basement plans or refused coverage of cases like childbirth or cancer treatment. they will never be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions or cut off because they hit an annual or lifetime limit. we already have concrete examples of how the marketplaces are helping real people. consider these stories from the letters i have received from october 1. gary, from billings, montana, said that the monthly premium he pays for his family of four is just over $2000 but thanks to

the affordable care act for next year it will be 1160 five dollars, saving $800 each month. allison in wolf point, montana, wrote to say that thanks to the act she will have access to affordable insurance for the first time in almost 20 years. she suffered an injury in college and because of that pre- existing condition the cost of insurance was prohibitive. instead she rationed visits to the adapter and cut back on the outdoor activities that make montana so great. no skiing, hiking, horseback riding, but now she will have access to high-quality insurance that she can afford. tony, a small business lawyer from bozeman, montana, wrote in to express his excitement on how it will save his small business $10,000 each year. he wrote -- as a small business owner, i can emphatically state

that the affordable care act is not only good for my business, it is the only way that i can continue to provide to give health insurance to my family and employees. training, the hard things that is business needs to stay competitive, he added it is good for his company, himself, his employers and family. a pretty impressive list. i have no doubt that stories like these will keep coming in in the weeks and months ahead. madam secretary, i was glad to hear you set a target rate for healthcare.gov to be fully operational. i look forward to hearing you plan to meet that goal. shedding light on where things stand, what the administration is doing to correct his problems as they -- and if there is a role for congress to help, we

want to be there. that is what matters right now. as resident kennedy said, let us not despair, but act. let's not seek the democratic or republican answer, but the right answer, let's get this done. mr. chairman. thank you for scheduling today's hearing. lias,you, secretary sabia for being here today. it has been six months since he last appeared before the committee. given everything that has gone , particularlytime regarding the implementation of obamacare, i would say that today's appearance is long past due. in april you assured us that the implementation was on track and that all was going smoothly and that the exchanges would be ready to go by october 1. it now appears that your statements from the previous hearings were at best misinformed. from where i sit, things do not seem to be going smoothly at all. i think we would all agree that

the best part of the implementation of the so-called affordable care act has been an absolute debacle. you admitted as much last week when you testified before house energy and commerce committee when you said -- hold me accountable for the debacle, i am responsible. while i am glad that you are accepting the sponsor ability for this disastrous rollout, i would have preferred to you in the administration were honest with us to begin with. perhaps he really did believe that things were on track in april, but you must have had several indications before october 1 that there were problems with the website and the exchanges. it is simply inexcusable that the members of this committee were not told earlier that these problems were occurring. want of asking. i personally sent you a number of letters asking for details on the information and implementation of the health care law. many of which were ignored entirely. the attitude toward the senate committee with the jurisdiction

over your agency is to -- has simply been appalling and needs to be rectified. if the past month has been any indication, there are likely to be numerous additional problems ahead. that being the case, it is only proper that you provide us with more regular updates on the issues with which you are dealing. in fact, i would ask that you come here once per month for the next six months to advise this committee with status up its on the implementation of obamacare and i hope you will agree to do so. like i said, madam secretary, it is clear the problems you onountered so far were not for scene. two separate problems, one from the government accountability office in june, another from the department of health and human service inspector general in august identified challenges months ahead of the october 1 deadline. yet there is no indication that the warnings from these nonpartisan government watchdogs

were heated by the administration or that any thought was given to delaying the start up as a result. on april 1 i raise concerns about whether adequate that -- adequate testing was occurring to ensure that privacy controls were in place with the exchanges. in fact i specifically asked you about having an independent entity review the entire system before it went live to make sure that all the appropriate privacy and security controls were in place. you assured me that all testing protocols were being followed and that privacy issues were a high priority. however, we now know that no end to end testing of the system occurred before the system went live. none. officials knew on september 27 that there was a high security risk to the system if it went on as planned.

my colleagues and i sent several letters since the spring asking for more information. what privacy controls are being implemented as part of the infrastructure? we asked for details about whether or not testing was being done to address the privacy and security concerns we had raised. to date we have not received any answers to those questions. so, not only can millions of americans not log into the website successfully, but those who have actually succeeded could now find themselves at the mercy of identity thieves across the globe. i would call this a less than ideal situation for our constituents. set ofg us to another issues that i hope you will be able to shed some light on later today. let me start with a simple premise. words matter. we have all heard the golden saying that honesty is the best policy. unfortunately this wisdom does

not seem to apply to the obamacare pledges. more promises made at this time -- or made at the time that this law was passed are currently proving to not be reality on a daily basis. that health care reform would reduce costs by $2500 for the average family. the truth is with all the new mandates going into effect, the cost of health insurance in this country is projected to rise at remarkable rate. some studies, including one from the manhattan institute, estimated that individual premiums will increase by 99% for females -- 99% for males and 62% for women nationwide. and then obama saying that if you could -- if you like your health care and like your doctor, you could keep it, this has proven to be simply untrue. postis why "the washington ," gave him for pinocchio's.

this represents the highest level of untruthfulness. to really have to try hard get for pinocchio's. you do not simply get it for making a misstatement. it was not until the last few weeks that people in the administration and the white rightstarted trying to be with the president said. let's be candid. it was not a new honest streak that change their tone, it was the fact that americans started receiving cancellation notices from their insurers. according to the associated press, 3.5 million people have received these notices so far. put simply, there is a long track record of broken promises to this committee and the american people with respect to how this law should or would work and the impact it would have. i hope that that will stop

today. no more caveats, no more excuses , just give us the truth. answers like we don't know and we were wrong are perfectly acceptable as long as that is the truth. i want to thank you again, mr. chairman, for holding this hearing. as you can see, we have a lot to discuss. i want to thank you, madam secretary, for being here. i know it is not the most pleasant thing you can do, but the fact of the matter is that these are the jinnah questions that have to be answered by you and others in charge of these programs. i have not even gone into -- i expect he will be able to get this -- the i.t. problems solved , the information technology problems solved. that does not even begin to answer the questions about why small businesses are now -- will not employ more than 49 people because they trigger a huge, huge expense under this -- i think, i

appreciate the opportunity to update the committee on the final implementation phase of the affordable care act. the law that passed both houses of congress was signed by the president and upheld by the supreme court and gives millions of americans an opportunity to obtain affordable health coverage. this is the first opportunity for many americans to get coverage, including people living in pain with chronic illnesses, young adults whose employers do not offer insurance , and parents struggling to keep up with mounting bills. last five weeks, access to healthcare.gov has been a miserably frustrating experience for far too many of these americans. and i amcceptable focused on fixing it and am accountable. anecognize that there is even higher level of accountability. accountability to the sick, the vulnerable, the struggling americans who deserve better

health care. the impact on the lives of everyday people is getting lost. i know this because i hear their -- stories, as i am sure many of you do. we have a team of experts working on an aggressive schedule so that the consumer experience on the web gets better every day. as the chairman has said, by the end of november they are committed to having the site working smoothly for the vast majority of users. for we do not have is a fully functioning system yet that consumers need and deserve. we do have a plan in place to identify, prioritize, and manage the remaining axes across the system. withve reinforced our team dozens of key personnel from the government and private sector, including respected engineers, technology managers, and designersevelopers, and analysts from company like oracle and red hat.

they are helping to diagnose quickms and making decisions to analyze, troubleshoot, prioritize and resolve issues in real time. as this work continues we know that americans are shopping for plans, signing up and enrolling online on paper, on the phone, and in person. in fact, more than 2 million people have already called the call center with an average wait time of less than 30 seconds. with the share committee a few indications of progress, what we have improved and what we intend to fix of the problems that remain. the two major areas of for -- of focus our performance dealing with speed and reliability, and functionality, fixing the bugs and other problems in the system . in the first few weeks after the launch of healthcare.gov, users had to wait an average of eight seconds for pages to load, today takes typically less than a

second. one month ago viewing the health land took minutes, today takes seconds. many consumers use to see a blank screen at the end of the application process. today they see if they are eligible for financial assistance, the next step in the process. users are receiving far fewer error messages and timeouts and process nearly 7000 registrants per hour with almost no errors. we have made more than a dozen additional fixes this weekend, allowing applications to be processed by additional insurers and allowing consumers to thelete payments, approving save and continue function, upgrading hardware so that the system can handle more users with greater stability. last night we installed more directs focusing on enrollment in improving the consumer experience. those upgrades will continue on an aggressive schedule between

now and the end of november. we are making progress, but there is still a lot of work to do. some have asked -- why not just to delay implementation of the new law until all the problems are fixed? there is a pretty straightforward answer. delaying the affordable care act delay peoples cancer, diabetes, or parkinson's. it did not delay the need for dental health services or cholesterol screenings or prenatal health care. delaying the affordable care act does not allay the foreclosure notices for families forced into bankruptcy by unpayable medical bills. it does not delay the higher cost that all of us pay when uninsured americans are left with no choice but to rely on emergency rooms for care. for millions of americans, delays are not an option. people's lives depend on this. too many hard-working people

have been waiting for to long for the ability to obtain affordable health insurance. we want to save families from going bankrupt, we want to save the lives for more of our friends and neighbors by allowing them to detect medical issues early. delay is not an option. we are still at the beginning of a six-month open enrollment that ends at the end of march. there is plenty of time to sign up for the new plan. intot to put this perspective, mr. chairman. the average private insurance enrollment is about two weeks in a worksite. many public lands allow for four weeks of open enrollment. medicare, the yearly open enrollment that is underway right now is six weeks long. the new marketplace was specifically designed for a long open enrollment, 26 weeks. those who enroll by the 15th will be able to access their benefits on day one.

i am accountable to this committee and to the american public for getting the fix is in place. -- committedting to getting healthcare.gov fixed so that millions of americans can get the financial and health security they have been waiting for. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, you have addressed the principal question i was going to ask, namely that many people think the site should be shut down until it is totally fixed. i am going to ask that question. why keep limping along? why not just shut it down until it is put together the way it should be put together? that yourpointed out fixes tend to have unintended consequences down the road. some other part of the system going into and after all the other fixes have been made. people ask why that has not happened.

every dayow that there is a story that someone did not get on, blank page, , that is a badms media campaign. it is negative, does not hurt you, it -- it does not help you, it hurts you. andnot have it shut down just have one bad story and then for as long as it takes, a couple of weeks, go back and get that gateway up and running? you indicate that it delays health care for a lot of people and i appreciate that, but one more time, why not just get it done right? i have this series of rules in my office, i will not go through the rules, but one of them is do it now, the second one is do it right the first time. why not shut down and do it right?

>> mr. chairman, i am relying on the advice not only of the inside team and contractors, but a lot of the outside experts who have come in to take a look at this system and they did a number of things along the way. they did a series of diagnostics, looked at the entire system and determined at the outset that healthcare.gov is fixable, that it is not fatally flawed, which was the from many people. secondly, we have asked that question a number of times. would it be helpful to take down the whole system and make fixes along the way? we have been advised that that actually does not help, that it is better to do routine operations, some of which are hot patches that can be done while the system is fully running and others are better to be done in the maintenance , whenn 1 a.m. and 5 a.m.

the user experience is low and we take the system down for periods of time. but given the fact that the various fixes, various functionality fixes, the code, have to be written in batches, it has been advised that you do not gain much from taking the whole system down for a week or a couple of weeks, that it is better to do this on an ongoing basis. who i think is, somewhat in charge of fixing some of this as far as i can .ell, says he has a punch list and he is going to punch them out one by one. how many items are on that punch list? which of them have been punched out? when do you expect to do the end to end testing? helpff has come into

manage the operations between the contractors and the cms team and the aggressive fix schedules. he will be with us, hopefully, through this process. he has been enormously helpful in being a management lieutenant with maryland, the cms administrator. i would say that there are a couple of hundred functional fixes that have been identified. .hey are in priority grouping the first series of them has been underway. depends on the night. it is hard to give you a moment by moment snapshot. there was a number that were done last night, hardware, additional installations were done over the weekend.

or 6:00 each day it is really identified whether or not the testing for the individual coding fix can be actually apply that night. the list changes, but mr. chairman we will get you an update and i would say that we are into the list and not where we need to be, but that it is a fairly aggressive schedule to get to the entire list. >> are you going to do an end to end? wax because the site is running, it is an to end daily. people are coming through every day and it helps to identify some of what we are seeing. what we are doing with live time and to end testing, we could go back and inform the tech team what needs to happen. >> speaking of, i want this to work.

is a two-way street, you have to tell us what is going on candidly, fully, so that we do not wake up in november and lo and behold are still not there yet. >> secretary, as you know, for months i have expressed concerns about the privacy and security controls that have been implemented in this federally facilitated marketplace. now we know that key officials thate administration knew there were privacy and security risks as well as serious operational issues that might occur if the exchanges went live on october 1. yet a decision was still made not to delay the launch until those decisions -- issues were fully addressed. myself,ple, including called for an independent entity, like the government accountability office, to conduct an end to end review of

the marketplace to ensure that the privacy and security patrols -- controls were in place. i have a number of questions each about knowing -- about proceeding even though you knew that these issues would occur. when did you find out about the potential security risk to users of the website, number one? sir, i would say the preliminary report -- >> so, in august. >> minor, g i o had identified that there risks -- that there -- gao had identified that there were risks that we took seriously. on thebriefed you potential security risks if the launch moved forward as planned? did anyone a brief you on the security risks? security on ad

regular basis with the , but no oneeam suggested that the risks outweighed the importance of moving forward, including our independent evaluator, who made recommendations to cms as required. >> i have been suggesting that since april. you said you felt strongly that the launch needed to proceed on the first for the americans that did not have health insurance so that they could get coverage is soonest possible. how did you balance that need with the risk that those americans might then fall victim to identity theft or have their personal information compromised why security controls? by security controls? how did you balance that? i share your concerns about individual privacy. i would say that the site was developed with the highest standards in mind.

it is certified by the federal standard and we took very seriously the information in the hub that was specifically designed so that the federal government was not storing privacy information and actually access other secure government websites, but we tried to store the minimum possible information. we do not collect personal health information. --but you do collect numbers social security numbers. >> sir, we don't collect them. functions a router that actually identifies social security numbers and verifies them with the administration, but that information is not kept and stored. >> do they not have to give their family income? like that is verified by the irs

and homeland security. >> it is also on the hub. >> pinging the homeland security database, pinging the irs via best -- database, it is not storing unique information. withat were the trade-offs launching the exchange on the first rather than waiting until a later date? other pieces of the marketplace have been delayed through insufficient privacy and security controls. >> senator, again i would say that the standards that were set out for security controls were met. testingioned end to end . there were features of the system that were loaded very close to the launch date. that is why, i think, the administrator chose to authorize a temporary authorization to

operate and not a permanent, because you cannot permanently authorize an authorization until you have the entire system. we knew we had features in the system that we had chosen not to apply from the outset. theshopping feature, spanish website, again those need to be tested before the system can be only authorized. >> can you tell the committee how many people signed up for health care under the current system? >> senator, we will have enrollment on -- enrollment numbers out next week. we are still working on particularly the 834's, the piece with insurers, we want to make sure that begin valid, accurate numbers. >> my time is up, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator. madame secretary, a community meeting at home, oregonians tell me to do everything i can to stop what they see as

ridiculous, petty bickering in washington and help to get results by working cooperatively. , ithat spirit, as i told you am going to pass this morning on the blame game and for a few minutes, for this moment, even, let's just say the democrats and republicans are going to try to find some real common ground on this. the affordable care act that we discussed today focuses on expanding coverage and financial help to those who cannot afford insurance and more private sector choices for patients. before the affordable care act, the last health care reform was the expansion of medicare to provide prescription drugs to american senior citizens. it was enacted during the bush administration and is known as .edicare part d

like the affordable care act, is zeroed in on the same concerns, expanding coverage, expanding assistance to the needy with increased marketplace choices. medicare part d has been a huge success. anyone who doubts it ought to think about the terrific hearing the chairman had at the aging committee a few weeks ago where democrats and republicans all made the same point. the medicare prescription drug program has been a godsend to millions of seniors by offering lifesaving medicine. it has cost 30% less than the congressional budget office predicted. but the medicare prescription drug program, as you know, did not start out so hot. the reality of the first few of that program was pretty much bedlam.

i went back and looked at the newspapers from that time. i will just describe a few of the headlines. "glitches in drug plan upset seniors." "medicare drug program is a wasteful disaster." "medicare blunders become a ."nster these headlines about the medicare prescription drug program that democrats and republicans now together say is a success, the headlines of the medicare prescription drug program are exactly the types of headlines that have been written about the affordable care act in recent weeks. fortunately the prescription drug program got fixed and they got the chance to get off the ground. if this had been repealed, wouldns of seniors today not have access to life-saving drugs. not a single member of this committee wants that.

-- my question to you is what, in your view, madam secretary, could democratic and republican senators here on the finance committee do to make the latest health reforms the success, the way the medicare prescription drug program has been? >> senator, i think it is always welcome to have elected officials in their home state give information to constituents about what the law says, what their options are, what choices they have and access the process . that would be enormously helpful. whoicularly to constituents may not be web savvy. who may not know about the law, linna be following this, but definitely need the benefits.

i do feel that there is no excuse for what has been a miserable five weeks. i am committed to the fix of the website, on the other hand i know the people are using it every day and that the experience is getting better every day, so i am again encouraging the folks to use the ,ebsite, use the call center enroll in person and in the health center, find a navigator in the webs -- in the neighborhood, it is inordinately helpful. we would love to work with the thatttee on the issues look down the road. not just that the marketplace that we were talking about, but really the impact of having the opportunity to look at delivery system changes. i noted the committee just came up with a bipartisan proposal

around a huge issue for medicare seniors, looking at those kinds of frameworks that actually encourage higher value lower- cost care as we move forward with more americans insured. i think that is one effort that should have a lot of bipartisan support. youuld be encouraged, as know, the affordable care act has a lot of features to deliver that -- the deal with sets of values for the medical dollars we are spending and how access to preventative care could actually change health profiles for millions of americans. those kinds of opportunities that are here -- >> >> thank you very much, senator. senator stab and now -- senator binow?ow -- sta

no question that this website has to get fixed and no way to express the frustration. i want to address the affordable insurance that is out there and the response that the public has had wanting to get on the website, get information because they need heat -- need health care and health insurance. because of the time i want to move quickly, ask you a few questions, if you can do yes or no, that would be great. let me share with you a story from michigan that was highlighted in an article in the l.a. times that talked about a woman named judith, 48 years old, work in a department store, had an insurance plan that costs are $65 per month that was a -- was affordable, she thought she had insurance, but then she was diagnosed with cancer and found out that her plan had a $2000 treatment, soor

she delayed her care and it got worse, she was in a difficult situation. madame secretary, after january 1, will judith or any other woman face a cap on their coverage for breast cancer treatment? >> no. >> will judith or any other woman be charged more or be denied insurance just for being a woman? >> no. >> after january 1 will -- judith or any other woman have to fear being denied coverage by her insurance company because of breast cancer? >> no, she will not. things. are all good some people in michigan certainly think so. i received a letter from greg miller, who said that his wife and he had a policy that covered

their son and they received a notice this week that their son policy was being canceled because it was not compliant with the aca. it had a high deductible and paid only one doctor's visit per year and had no preventative care with limited prescription drug coverage. in fairness, the insurer advised us to go to the health care exchange to obtain a policy. we had no problem accessing the exchange or navigating to the various policy alternatives with much greater coverage than the old policy. we certainly want to hear more of that. .hank you for passing obamacare after january 1, will his sons insurance policy he guaranteed to cover prescription drugs? >> yes. >> after january first, with his insurance cover important preventative screenings without out-of-pocket costs for the family? like yes. heard fromy i

crystal, a small business owner in pontiac, michigan, who has not been able to afford insurance for three years. she admitted that before the affordable care act she was one of the people who was using the emergency room and adding to the cost of everyone else and their insurance. last month she went to healthcare.gov and was able to quickly without interruption. she got a plan for $163 per month. she said to me that it is a payment she can live with and she could not tell me how happy she was to finally have health insurance, especially at her age. madam secretary, we have heard concerns about small businesses for years that have struggled for insurance. i certainly at every meeting for years and years at every performance meeting have wanted to talk about this. can you discuss how pulling together small business owners like crystal in the market ways will help them continue to afford insurance?

>> small business owners, under the law, employers with less than full-time employment have no obligation to provide coverage, but many of them want to, it is how they keep, recruit, and retain the best employees. they are often in a market where they pay higher rates and have exorbitant costs if one of their employees gets sick or has a diagnosis. so, having an option, and small business owners can shop inside or outside the marketplace, but there will be new options within the marketplace with plans specifically for them and for the employers with fewer than 25 employees and low income workers, they may actually qualify for a new tax credit to provide that coverage up to 50% of the cost of insurance so that they are -- there are not only more choices and features but a

larger pool, but for some a significant tax incentive for employer coverage. you, senator. senator grassley? us,hank you for joining madam secretary. you know of my interest in the claims act that brought 30 to $40 billion back, it is one of the best tools against fraud. i start by referring to a letter that you sent to congress on october 30. the letter states that the department does not consider qualified health benefits or other programs related to the oral facility marketplaces and other programs under obamacare to be federal health care programs. if that interpretation stands, it would have serious consequences. your letter calls into question whether vital enforcement and oversight tools and rebates, kick ax and bribes would be available to your agency. it weakens the ability to use

the claims act. i do not understand why you are giving insurers within the exchanges a blanket exemption from years of civil and criminal laws and regulations, including ,nti-kickback law violations just to name a few. this is not about my position on the underlying law, madam secretary. you and i disagree on that, however we can both agree, i hope, that you are moving forward with implementation no matter how badly it goes and how many promises are broken along the way. right now it is not going well. trying to exempt obamacare from a host of criminal and civil laws designed to protect taxpayer dollars from fraud just adds insult to injury. these laws were put in place to stop aggressive practices that ripped off taxpayers. you should not just be able to exempt obamacare from these protections with a stroke of the

pen. a few questions -- was this exemption requested by any providers? if so? >> no, sir, not to my knowledge, this was a legal discussion in the department. because these are private plans, they are not government plans. the legal interpretation was that the insurance plans being offered in the marketplace and offering plans off the marketplace should be treated the same. these are not government insurance programs, these are private plans. >> if you have any discussion with any providers or offer than these plans prior to their decision to join? >> no, sir. >> finally, would you make the lawyers who reviewed this decision available to my staff so that we can ask follow-up questions to better understand why the decision was made to greatly weaken the available statutes to protect taxpayer dollars?

wax i would be glad to do that. again, we have not given up any authority over fraud. our department continues to have careful monitoring. we can decertify grounds for being in the marketplace, we can work with the attorney general. the state insurance departments from around the country are the regulators of these private insurance plans and private companies, who have very aggressive anti-fraud efforts. it was just a legal these areion, since private companies and not dollars coming out of the medicare trust fund, that they should not be declared to be government health plans. medicare advantage plan is the same and is governed. >> actually, it is not quite the same, senator. it is a private insurance plan where federal dollars are paid directly out of the trust fund to the medicare trust fund.

this is different, these are individuals playing premiums -- paying premiums to the private marketplace. >> may i reserve my time for a second round? >> you may, absolutely. >> thank you, mr. chairman. secretary sibelius, i have read the testimony and listen to it carefully and appreciated your commitment to making the website work. i am concerned, though, that a lot of the testimony and discussion we are having seems to imply that the problem we are dealing with has to deal with outlets on the website. experts are being hired to get the website fixed and then everything will be great. the chairman asked you if it would not be better to hold off until we can get the website fixed. i want to expand the little beyond that. i am concerned, frankly, not that you will fix the website,

but if the law will be fixed. i see that we are now finding that the concerns that many of us raise before about the law ,eing properly laid out in real our concerns about that are coming true. the president said -- if you like your plan, you can keep it. and not because the website is not working, but because of the way the law was put together we see that for millions of americans today, they are getting canceled. 100,000 in idaho, way more in terms of percentages than what the president is talking about. the president promised that if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. millions of americans are finding out they cannot keep their doctor. the president promised that we could cut the average family premium by $2500 per year. although i read your testimony where you talked about premiums, i do not know what data sets you

are using. the data i am aware of shows premiums in the individual market skyrocketing. faster thanng up promised if your family makes or earns less than you will notyear, see your taxes increased a single dime. we have somewhere between 800 billion and over a trillion dollars that were delayed in implementation but now starting to hit him squarely hit the middle class. hit andow starting to hit squarely in the middle class. the website is not working, let's fix it, but the law is not working. isn't it time for a timeout so we can go in and start finding

out why we're seeing premiums go up, not down. why we're seeing the failure of the promised operational law to occur. >>