a political transition. then it will take some time for them to seek their government and have it functioning. if there is a single shortcoming right now, it is confidence. and bsa will give them confidence. i can say that with great certainty. >> that is a very important point. it should not go undervalued here. everything works off of confidence. markets work off confidence. we all work off confidence. but in in addition to that, for us -- i spent a lot of time, as marty did, as well as general dunford when we were there. every day that goes by that we do not have that certainty of what the role is and what the defined mission and defined resources required are, you are taking options away from the

planning. it is months and months to close down a base. if you just look at the physics of this, in an antiseptic world, and afghanistan is not antiseptic, it takes months to get all this done, just to get out. and to get to the end place of our 2014 ending our combat mission there. then we are asking our commanders and budget her's and our allies -- our budgeters and our allies to start with commitments for the coming year when they have no idea what that means. no leader can commit their country, or the military, or any of their resources to their nation or any other nation without some certainty of what that is. we have pulled back on some of our historical roles in brazil, and our program today is focused on i/o diversey issues and climate -- biodiversity issues and climate change issues. we have a few alternative energy

programs, but this does not represent the future of our developed assistance program. however, it does represent the future of our commercial engagement, our investment engagement, which strikes me to degree to which pharmaceutical companies are prepared to come to brazil and do agreements with rebuild -- with brazilian companies to build out a capacity for brazilian theymaceutical companies.

have their budgets, they have their leaders. that is the reality gete are days you cannot back committing too? options away chairman dempsey, on syria, can you speak to what trajectory you

think that serious position is him armed opposition is on right now? is is trending more towards elements, how do you see the future? as you well know, i spoke to him about 30 times since july. on theest developments charges against morsi, which we i am not going to get down into their judiciary and the specifics of the charges. every time one of these developments occur, the world sees that. we see it. we in the u.s., and most people, and democraticld

egypt and most countries want to help them get there. when these developments occur, that sets back the effort. if they continue to make progress on the democratic roadmap as they have moved forward on constitutional reforms and they are putting that to a referendum for a vote they willaid that welcome international observers into the country to observe the elections, observe everything. , that effort then gets set back and it is a dangerous effort because it does not bring people together am a it alienates everyone even further. those were some of the elements of the conversation that we had. other than a specific issue, they have not been new to the conversations i have had over

the last few months. >> on stritch after he of the opposition, i would describe this as a competition among groups on the opposition side. a competition that is characterized by a changing alliance of convenience and in some cases, those are based on ideology, in some cases it is based on far more pragmatic matters of control. move towards geneva, one of the goals we're trying to accomplish is to determine how that dynamic is changing from where it was maybe a year ago from where it was today. i would like to get your assessment of the chinese navy, especially in the wake of this near miss collision with the uss -- was that intentional or accidental? how would you assess the navy?

is an aircraft carrier a serious threat, doesn't even have aircraft on board? >> i will let the chairman talk about the specifics. what they bought from the ukrainians and retrofitted. what happened and why. back to something that chairman dempsey and i have talked about. in the want to avoid east china sea, all of the conflict. all of the conflicts surrounding these islands. responsible actions. that action by the chinese , they are out in front of the capitol.

it was irresponsible. it was responsible. we need to word -- to move towards a mechanism in asia- pacific and with china and i know general dempsey and achieve set have been working on this, i have been working on this, to have a mechanism to be able to diffuse some of these issues as they occur. marty and others, what we don't want is some miscalculation here to occur. when you have this issue, that is a kind of thing that is very incendiary that could be a trigger or a spark that could set off some eventual miscalculations. this has been a very unhelpful event, we are working on it and we will continue to work on it. >> when i visited china last my chinesemet

counterpart, we took on board three initiatives. ae of them was come to common agreement about rules of behavior when we encounter each other. this is air, sea, ciber. those groups have been meeting and making some progress. this reinforces in my mind that we need to continue to have that work ongoing. as a secretary said, we certainly don't want a miscalculation or an accident. carrier operations are about as confiscated and operation as any that we conduct. a short storylly by tom wolfe. they are a long way from being a threat to us with the aircraft carrier.

question might want to fault on china. as good as the deal was, you get $20 million. 22 billion will have to be cut. what areas would you recommend to the appropriate leaders that they cut in the $32 billion remaining amount of money? >> as you know, that happy time , i'm not talking about christmas necessarily, but budgets are coming. budget time of year is coming. we will be presenting a budget and we will spend a lot of time on capitol hill. will beor leaders spending a lot of time. they will be going through the specifics of this.

as i said in my general comments, the buyback will be used. how are we going to use that money and where are we going to have to deal where we continue to have to plan to cut and where we will take it out of the 32 billion that we don't have. >> the appropriators will cut that. you are talking about the 15 budget. >> we were talking about 2014. that is right where we are living. we did not have any certainty at all. we don't have a budget. still dealing with 2014, we have to, with the congress, with the white house. that isn't going away. we have to continue to figure out as we work through this.

that was the skimmer to get some base lines on the lowest total sequestration. each of the chiefs had to play out where they're going to take those cuts. we are doing that now. the services cover the was the first step. what we're doing now is we are buying back, we know what the bottom looks like. will buy this up to the level that we can buy it. the work is done. >> this bill comes by january. this have to be cut. -- cut going to say it

this area? >> you don't expect we will expose those to you. >> i did expect that. >> i'm sure you did. that prisoners were transferred this week, this is the biggest number and a long time. what do you expect in the coming months, this long jam might be eased and there would be a significant reduction. 2 transferred last week saudi's and two sudanese. you read the highlights of this that gives a little bit more like stability.

to continuecipate we are making good progress towards that objective. >> are you concerned about the ethnic tensions? what are they doing to secure the embassy. i am sure that you know that we were involved working with the state department to get a number of our state department officials out of the embassy. they were able to do that successfully with no incidents. we have additional military on

the ground. he put these into place. these are what we have located there, we will keep those a while. we are working very closely with the embassy security. they're doing everything to facilitate the request. >> we have responded to the state department request. ofs has achieved the level stability for the americans at the sudan. >> there watching some movements in and around cuba. put response forces at

various levels of readiness that we dialogue and i'll back as situation requires first stop the nearest one happens to be east africa response force. it will be prepared. >> thank you very much. after justice to secretary hegel. you are aware of the recommendations of the reform, two of which involve the military. they recommend the next director civilian. and that you spit off the military cyber command from the nsa. these are recommendations at the white house has pushed back on. you see a reason why having a civilian would cause damage to its mission or separate the military step of command from the nsa or putting in a separate command? that?that hamper

i would appreciate your thoughts on that as well. as you have so many floating in the air around china and in lou of setting out of these rules of engagement with the chinese, are you telling your pilots and commanders and captives any new rules of engagement or any new rules for them to follow to avoid getting into a dustup? we are justthe nsa, reviewing those i'm generally aware of some of them. we take is very seriously. we were few all of them. about the newon specific recommendations on separating. i think the president has made

a decision on a couple of these things. tom quoted me on this. the president wanted everyone on his thoughts. they have focused as a very critical component of whatever decisions will be made. military, our individual men and women who are charged with the security of this country, they are as big a users and customers of the end product of what the nsa and ciber does as anyone. whatfor size that because i would not want to see happen

is for a gap to occur here in some way. you can do it in different ways. i'm not saying there is only one way to do it. we need tos that look at that very carefully because if that would create a gap, it would change some of the structure at the top or if this jeopardized what our commanders on the ground are getting, but more to the point, really require, then we had better think again about this. we have had a lot of meetings by this, as you know. i guess i would not say anything beyond that. >> my responsibility is to

ensure that the war fighter gets the support they need. that will always be the point at which i establish myself. this is so that we don't increase our vulnerability. we are working our way through these 46 recommendations. on the issue whether we publish new rules of engagement, no, we have not. the standing rules are adequate to the task. for we do is remain alert changes in the environment. there are times that are more sensitive than others. we are in a hike time of sensitivity. then you can count on our mariners and airmen to be head of that.

>> what is your concern about what is happening in north korea? ofwell, the unpredictability the actions that we see coming out of north korea and the latest being the example you is very concerning to everyone. the reality of that uncertainty heightens the tensions, as you know, it further deepens the thatcions of motives nation is as close as any nation in the world. there is no transparency. there is no interconnectivity outside world in any way. when you see things like this occur, it tightens their

reaction of what people think and what could happen. event at a welcome all. these kind of internal actions by dictators are often a precursor to provocation to distract attention from what they are doing inside of their country. if you're asking if i'm concerned, absolutely. >> thank you. happy holidays. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> then, a discussion about 15- year-olds and how they score against of their international peers. your callso take and tweets. "washington journal" each morning at 7:00 eastern on c- span. >> as a moderate in the privacy debate and in the privacy world, i have come to a troubling conclusion. the dater broker industry does not have constraints and does not have shame. it will sell any information about any person regardless of 7.9 centsy for inamed. that is the price of the list of

rape sufferers which was recently sold. , victimsrape sufferers of domestic violence, police officers, their home addresses. people who suffer from genetic illnesses. and many, gender other factors. this is what is being sold is a far cry from visiting the website and seeing an ad. what it is is a sale of the personally identifiable information and highly sensitive information of americans. >> this weekend on c-span, your medical history, income why -- lifestyle. the senate commerce committee looks into data mining.

thom hartmann argues that without a strong middle class, the u.s. is heading for an economic implosion that will make the great depression seem tame. by august, 1945, it was already becoming clear that a struggle for global dominance had begun. from world war two cold war. >> the president of the world the banks efforts to stop corruption in his development project. we will also hear from the bank president and the former central bank president.

>> i am calling this room to order. i am interrupting your current conversation said that we can start a brand-new conversation. up againstspeak corruption. [laughter] [indiscernible] if you have anything that is likely to make noise, please put it on vibrate or silent. if there is something that you from, please go ahead. on theversation can go stage but the reaction can certainly be here and also with

the online audience as well. have you ever wondered if you had a current world bank president meeting a former world bank president? you can make it spicy with the chair of transparency international and a sprinkle on the top. the former chair the federal reserve. that is a very tasty .onversation we'll start with the current world bank president, dr. kim. >> thank you all for coming. we have with us to men then helped to lay the corruptio foun

in the fight against corruption. they pressured other financial institutions not to look the other way. provided to us with a clear brew plant. this is a historic occasion to have put the view here today and a new opportunity to learn from you again. thank you for coming. ourvery pleased to welcome guest from transparency international and the finance minister for the philippines. welcome. very honored to have you with us today. right from the start, i would like to make clearwire fighting corruption is a critical priority for the entire world bank group. every dollar that a corrupt official or business person puts in their pocket is a dollar

stolen from a pregnant woman who needs health care or from a girl or boy who deserves education. or from communities that need water, roads, and schools. every dollar is critical if we are to reach our goal to and extreme poverty by 2030. us not mince words, in the developing world, corruption is public enemy number one. we will never tolerate corruption and i pledge to do all in our power to build upon our strong fight against it. how do build institutions with greater integrity so that we can help more people. >> we need to improve and share the way we share knowledge. second, we need to empower citizens with information and tools to make their governments more effective and accountable.

we need to build the global movement to prevail over corruption. the world bank group will be creating a group of technical public in rule of law, sector, financial, and state management. this group, which we are calling a global practice on good governance. will be a major player in anticorruption efforts for years to come. we already know that we and our in and backed.ad when corruption threaten to power projectcal in southern africa, the world bank intervene, preventing $6 billion from being misused. afghanistan, we supported a oroject to monit infrastructure projects. 83% of the concerns they raised have been dressed -- addressed.

we have convinced major firms to commit to clean business practices. we also advocate for greater transparency because it leads to citizen education which leads to citizen action and real change. transparency and ownership, budget, and procurement will empower citizens. said, finance minister transparency can turn bureaucrats into activists. in just three years, the open government partnership has grown from eight countries to 62 countries. it has produced important reforms led by governments and civil societies. we know we can do better. global law enforcement and regulatory agencies know that ir ability to recover money from the poor has not been

optimal. a recent report found that the democratic republic of congo lost a large amount of money. that is double their budget for education and health. the world bank is coming up with new ways to monitor fraud and corruption and new ways to recover the money. but we need more than governmental action. we need to build a movement. movements only work if they are inclusive. that is why our new strategy calls for engagement of all parts of society. governments, the private sector, and citizens. fall, annual meeting this we are committed to stepping up our engagement with citizens. lost the global partnership -- launched a global

partnership for accountability. the private sector has to be part of the solution as well. oil, gas, and mining firms are increasingly disclose in their contract with governments. this gives everyone a chance to scrutinize the behavior of officials. supportedbank transparency initiative has had an impact. recovered, they have $443 million in missing tax money. we can stop corruption from sapping public trust in institutions. we need to show that corruption is not how business gets done. three we recognize integrity award winners. the first is the royal canadian mounted police. their cooperation resulted in world bank sanctions and legal action. the second is a financial

management specialist whose vigilance and root viewing -- in reviewing the project profit action in china. and the third is a person working in timor whose work uncovered -- inspired by these examples, the world bank group is more fightted than ever to corruption. that will be a critical part of our work to and property -- and poverty and increase prosp erity/ . [applause] >> good morning. it is great to have you here. -- that willwith happen is with yourselves. i would love to hear different perspectives amongst you.

if you get stuck, i will help you out. but you should be helping me out. i have never heard anybody say the c word in public. ?hat happened when you did it that 1996, i realized corruption that was impacting our projects. we didn't really in those days have the mechanism to try to make sure that the dollars we put out that the places they were supposed to go. speech,cond annual which came in september, i put in a plea about the c word. speech,ore i gave the two days before, the general counsel came to me. ibrahim shihata.im

he said, can i see you in the lobby? said, why? president, you cannot use the c word. i said, what the hell is the c word? he said, corruption. i said, why can't i use the c word? said, probably about half of your directors represent corrupt countries. i said, maybe we can do some about stopping them being corrupt. -- the cancer of corruption.

six months later, every director of the bank in the meetings talked about corruption. every one of them. it got the thing going. since that time, there has been a substantial move -- go, mr. former president. >> that was the start of it. >> is a technical problem. we need a microphone. >> that was a good start. before that, the lady sitting next to me who chairs a group called transparency international accompanied a -- a coupleemployee of former bank employees got it started.

they told me it was not my idea, it was theirs. whether it was my idea or theirs, the whole movement against corruption has become more active. the question is, is it effective? that is my answer to your question. vogler -- vockler, one of the most challenging things it is the risk involved in corruptionith th issues. how would you assess that? >> the risk is not doing something in terms of o making the world

bank more effective. it is not just a question of the loss of money. it affects the whole society in each country. dealing with the problem -- it is called the rule of law. the feeling that these countries, the united states on down, has to rely upon its sense of law to have a successful society. there's nothing more destructive the the rule of law -- feeling that people are getting around the rule of law by corrupt practices. the fault is on the supplier of the corrupt goods as well as the people demanding. this is a pervasive problem. i might just say to correct the record a little bit, in terms of jim's precipitation --

participation, i read that speech. it was long. >> was a long and good? the part about corruption was one paragraph long. [laughter] whole speech was maybe 2000 words. 72 words. >> he is my friend. [laughter] -- it is in the middle of the speech. 72 words -- these created a focus that had not been present before. it was not very happily received. by many of the people in the world bank. probably better received outside the world bank and inside the world bank. i think over a. period -- i think over a

of time is how i got involved. the point i want to make is the world bank cannot escape responsibility. agency the leading donor in concept and practice everybody around the world, whether they have corrupt societies were not. -- or not. we have our own variety in washington dc. it is terribly important. you have a counterpart in europe , among donor countries, the on a that has put this high priority from that standpoint. here you are dealing with the emergency more -- emerging world.

they are dealing with the emerged world. dealing with practices that permit if not encourage their own companies to make the problem in the countries you are dealing with. thinking, you have the scissors with two blades. have the leadership on the development side. they have leadership on the well-developed countries that contribute to the problem. mr. ther vogler, -- volcker, i see her nodding. what is going through your mind? have been mining those ever since. we keep using them. part of what we talked

about. president kim, now we are mining your words. sour speech at the csi which was an important speech. listening to both paul and president kim, talking about the this is whatple -- came to my mind. . was looking at data recently if you have a country where more than 60% of the people have to pay a pride -- bribe. cases, over 480 women die each year out of a hundred thousand. 30%ountries where less than of people said they had to pay a bribe.

, less than 57 women died. there is the same thing with water and all these indices. the point that i would like to go back to in terms of paul is the one about how people -- it is not just that it kills people , it prevents them from having a life or quality of life, it concentrates the money into the hands of 10% of the population. it is also what happens with the trust of the people in their government. this, when we do surveys and ,ook at surveys that others do it really demolishes and destroys the trust that people have in their government . or in the absence of a rule of law. recently had a major survey of 1.4 money and people.

-- 1.4 million people. the issue of honest and responsible government was at the top of the survey. of course it touches primarily governments. again, as i was listening to you, we spent quite a lot -- i think there is awareness now. international has something to do with that. we could say that the world bank started transparency international because indeed, there were people that were working in the world bank that when they retired, did that. have thecountries regulations. some are missing. .he problem is enforcement when you look at where the people live, in transparency international, we are looking increasingly at the other levels of government. people interface with cities.

city governments, local governments. least -- we have spent a lot of -- and of course work with the public. the public conscious is awake. the question is, how can we move the people from being conscious , but alsoant constructively engaged? with the tools that will permit them to move from public consciousness to democracy. >> let's get more specific. you are in government. you are a minister of finance. you are at the point where this is a role that issue. issue. is a relevant take us inside your government.

tell us as much as you can about how you deal with corruption when and if it arises. >> i think the philippines would be a good candidate for being the poster child. thehe 1960's, we identified philippines is one of two countries that were most likely to succeed. our total experts were greater than taiwan and korea combined. fast forward 40 years, we are down the tables. ishink what corruption does create the voices of confidence in people. of confidenceisis in people.

you get deeper in deeper into a vicious cycle. aquino ran for office, he ran on a platform of good governance. that is where you will see a big impact of even marginal improvements in governments. we have had inroads in construction -- corruption. our growth rate has averaged 6.3% since president a keynote took offense -- since president aquino took office. why? we have had more confidence from financial institutions. better governance. made longer-term investments. we are getting into a virtuous cycle. is, howchallenge for us

do we sustain this? institutionalize this beyond president aquino? this is where institutions like the world bank can help. -- it makes realize it easier for us to convince people -- >> who do you look to to say, it works in this region? >> singapore is a good example. it works. it is a meritocracy. that is what we are trying to copy in the philippines. we are not there. president aquino has instituted incentive-based schemes for government. there is a difference between and goingght hours

more than eight hours. doing bad and doing good. we have to move towards that path. more than just singapore, other examples beyond the philippines will do. one thing we have found very successful in our three years is involving the citizenry. web site.e a honestly --ort and they can report anonymously tips about corruption. cases so far and are investigating 50. some we do not have enough and have enough information. we are try to upgrade the website so we can give them feedback about what we have done. combined this with the

budget so we can tell people how much money was given to their village.o read -- and who was tasked to spend it. we are starting is things weone of the are going to do is publish goods that have gone through customs. who imported it. what is the price. that is another thing that is working. >> will you take your breath for a moment? [laughter] >> corruption is a cancer so we really cannot. [laughter] the world bank president is shooting a glance.

he wants to jump into the conversation. >> i'm so glad you called it the cancer of corruption. i am a doctor. [laughter] cancer can be cured. the advances we have made in the medical field on cancer are stunning. some of the most stunning advances we have made. the reason that the minister is here is because of the attitude he brings. that we can things do now that we could not have done in 1996. when jim did it, it was courageous. the two areas we want to focus on -- if you look around the ford, the program international student them assessment. they are saying, what are the things that seem to be one working to improve achievement? and then they bring them to

their countries. -- instead of saying corruption is a moral issue, you have to say that there are ways of fighting corruption that are more effective. our role is to bring the experiences together. the general approach we've have called, the science of delivery. finding out what has been working and then helping countries and lament those innovations in a way that works locally. >> how far along are you in that? thinking, that is not working, we are not doing that again. >> in terms of experiments, we have not been involved. some of the most exciting things we are seeing are related to the other major shift. .ere is one experiment

in afghanistan, we have given afghan he women -- afghani women cell phones. they can take pictures of projects in action. they can transmit them to our office. it has a feature that if they are stopped on the road side, there is one button they push and gets rid of the pictures. it does not put them in danger. we give them access to cell phone services and give them a concrete way of monitoring corruption. protect stop -- them in case they get stopped. citizen voice will not go away. if there is anything we have learned from the arab spring, everybody can tweak and go one facebook. -- on facebook.

together past withices -- vest practices citizen engagement, that is a great path. >> you have to have delivery. off with a nonprofit agency to try to improve government. the slogan i got from thomas edison is appropriate. without execution is hallucination. [laughter] we have a lot of vision here about dealing with corruption. we can expound about the glories about dealing with corruption. problem ofpractical dealing with it in difficult circumstances. both the delivery and supply and demand side.

it is not easy. you have to keep at it. if the world bank does not do it, nobody else will do it. if you don't do it, everybody will use it as an excuse for not doing it themselves. are withto work as you other agencies and whatever the rest of us can do to help the corporation and other aid agencies. we ought to be there with you. >> vision without execution is hallucination. what i am hearing is we have two different eras here. we have the era of facebook, twitter, social media. smartphones taking pictures. they can get rid of any of the pictures. 72n we have the era where -- words where you mentioned

corruption a big speech? i am adjusted to see what a former world bank president who started this process has to say worlde -- to the current bank president. you can be very candid. >> i think there is no doubt that there are 60 countries that have signed on to trying to prevent corruption. typically, they are the more developed countries. example, theas an natural resources countries, -- thatl in africa leaves 52 that do not. that reminded me that when i was at the bank, he decided i should go and talk to the presidents

of african countries. i went with a simple proposition. them into quartiles. e would meet with 14 or 15 at a time. i would speak to them without just 14 or 15 men. i said, look, you are very corrupt -- many of you. >> did you really say that? them, you may think it is ridiculous. it is corrupt, and it has been a practice here. -- you are corrupt, and it has been a practice here. what we establish a date.

from now and then, you can steal anything you want. -- i said, steal everything you want. we can't stop you. but let's set a date when you are going to go honest. together, we can establish a practice that would remove the corruption. you will all be rich. you will be living in europe. but let's set a date when the -- a clear-to move cut attack on corruption. some of them said, that is an interesting idea. i said, can you get in touch with me? i heard from nobody. we went to the countries and tried very hard. i even took with me on one these trips the gentleman who became president of germany. he thought this was unusual

wholapproach. we tried this. i thought this was at least an honest approach. sadly, it did not work. i don't know how you rate through in many of these countries where there is a narrow gap -- narrow group of people who are profiting from the corruption. maybe you have an idea. >> jim went to one very powerful leader and said, there is corruption and you need to fix it. he said, what you call corruption we call family values. [laughter] who was that person? [laughter] >> it is not my story. james wolfensohn?

>> i cannot remember. this illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. let's go back to transparency international. i know there are areas that are working. can you share that with us? >> you have to -- let me just look at two or three countries. there could be many more. there are common things that have been happening in those countries. whether you are looking at botswana. they have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. to this day, in our corruption perception index, but one it is the top 20. top 20.ana is in the

that means people see this country as being quite clean. look at chile. quite a lot happened in the short time. , is going to take a long time. i say, i am very impatient. chile, withinat a. of about a decade, a lot happened in terms of -- brazil is doing some interesting things. when you look at some of the bribery legislation -- the u.s. has been there a long time ago some, eu, brazil will have legislation come into place. norway. a number of countries have been doing that. going back to the point that president kim was doing, you need to work at all levels.

not just one level. you need to bring all the parties to the table. that is the people. first of all, they need information. industry, business can have an important role to play. government, civil society organization, who support and work with the people -- but who also provide advice and work with industry and government. put a fire under all of these people and bring them around the bonfire. i would like to say word about the bank. had and continues to have a tremendous role to play. it is not just about every country about the world. there are people on the ground who can help to share and

exchange that information, that knowledge, provide support through lending money as well of the grant money. provide some support for that. on the prevention side and learning side -- and the enforcement side. we have had an important role both as the preventer and enforcer. a lotsee a project where of people are talking about corruption but nothing is happening, then they will think we favor impunity. this has been important -- an important role. , where aok at the g 20 lot of work is being done, at least commitments are made to deal with money laundering -- the stealing of assets.

enforcement, regulations so that bank secrecy does not prevent the investigations that are taking place to try to find the money that has been stolen from the countries and bring it back to the people so that development can take place. -- so that you don't hide your money in equity in companies around the world. there are a lot of things that are happening so the -- where the bank has tremendous knowledge and brain power and resources to make a difference. organization,iety transparency international has been pleased to work with the bank. >> i would love the panel to tell us something new that is going to be so startling that will make the headlines tomorrow. maybe something you don't say in

public. this is a relaxed conversation. to hear the conversations that go on a little bit like that james wolfensohn shared at the beginning. , those thoughts are instructional and helpful. mr. volker? relaxedant me to give a news headline? >> we talked about all the of dealing with corruption in countries. that is true in many countries. all of which are represented in the world bank board. it is a hard problem, dealing with corruption by all these other countries. changing thetime minds of the people in the world bank on the subject. -- it isand unpleasant

subjectand unpleasant and makes it hard to get the money out there and get a project started. there was a lot of resistance to mr. wolfensohn when he made his point. when i came along 10 years later, it was quite evident. is why i came along. there was a recognition that the bank itself had to do better in concentrating on this issue. the speech we heard from the theident just now set out leadership prerequisite. it is important that that penetrate through the bank. that beginnings a few years ago, you began to make more progress right here in

this institution in dealing with it. withme leave with you challenge. i'm not sure it is the front page of the washington post, but it is the vest i can do at the moment. [applause] >> what happened five plus years ago that seems to be a turning point? >> it was a hell of a fight in the bank. it revolved around this issue. there may have been a lot of misunderstanding. it was the point at which the the finally internalized fight on corruption. it took the than --

speech by the president to signal this. it took more than the speed to get this done. you can feel how difficult it is elsewhere in the world. a place where you have the opportunity to change subject. chart -- corruption --r logan in many countries. sometimes it is sincerely felt, other times less so. this is awin, pervasive political argument around the world, then we have to find a way to jump in there and support ruler formers -- real reformers on the ground. they have a tough job. if they do get elected, into office, that is the time that

they need help. it is not easy to do. do we have the structures, the programs that are necessary to help them? to help them develop rules and procedures? >> let me jump in. i want to hear from the minister. let me jump in for a second. my first day on the job, i walked into the office. group of managers took me aside -- said, it was like 9:00 they said, you have a decision to make. cancel this major bridge project where we have discovered corruption. oh and by the way, the people that are proponents are outside waiting to protest you. we cancel that right there. the first decision i made. it right there.

the first decision i made. my predecessor was absolutely career -- clear. he said there is no tolerance for corruption. -- frame shiftp that has happened is so great that jim use the word cancer. some people say, it is a culture of corruption. it goes back generations. there's a sense of inevitability use the word culture. as an anthropologist, one thing changeis cultures quickly. you have a cancer, and you have to treat it. we know from all over the world it is treatable. if it is not treated, that is not practice on your part is the attitude we have to have.

one that there are so many good examples of cultures of corruption been transformed by the way, if you don't do it, your citizens will hold you accountable. that is the attitude that we have to have. whatever you think the culture of the cancer was before, here are tools for you to use right now. it is a matter of your choosing whether you want to tackle it during your campaign or not. by the way, we will be watching. minister cesar purisima, i'm going to go to you next. the thought process on the first day, what was going through your mind? -- jim andown about i were friends before i took over -- i knew this was a major issue. i said, let me see

the evidence. they showed me. it was overwhelming. the sasol we have to approach it. ink and a nod. if there is evidence, you have to take a stand. what isal training is, the evidence? if the evidence is clear, you have to take a stand. >> you took the -- about the same time, the other side of the big, respected german company was caught bribing people around the world. company gets caught up in the world bank was part of it.

impact on the supply side of corruption. which requires a lot more intelligence and follow-up. instances, one from the demand side and one from the supply side. change insent a attitude. changing the culture. two dramatic instances where we showed we did care. >> we are in the candid zone. we are attempting to make headlines for the next day by being very open. minister? >> i want to remind you that i caught my breath. you might think that i am trying to -- i want to pick up on the point raised by mr. vo lcker.

i think corruption should be our fight. all of the global community. there is one thing called an idea. corruption is about money. it is about time that the global community take about -- think about a passport for funds. there is a passport for us to move between countries. why not for funds? my cell phone number, you can medially tell it is from the philippines. there should be a convention on tax account numbers and movement , ifunds, movement of goods we are serious in fighting corruption. it has to be a global fight. not just a fight of the filipinos of the philippines.

companies facilitate corruption. we have seen the effects of corruption on people, on poverty and hopelessness. that is why we are passionate about this fight. the last point -- i think that the key is in helping countries build institutions. ofcan have a lot interventions, but if we don't build institutions, we won't be able to sustain this fight against poverty. it's not going to be solved overnight with one program. it will be adjoining. -- a journey. >> just checking, so mr. vogler

cker knows i am paying attention, vision without execution? >> the world bank is in a unique position. its membership is the community of nations. willan be the one who espouse the vision and help with execution. simple ideas will make it more difficult -- it will make the move in a money market difficult. let's think -- strengthened further for having a passport for funds. >> i find this very interesting. that is a new one. if we look at the next 10-15 years, given from where you are,

our population will go up to 8.5 billion by 2025. urbanizationities, is key. if you look at the emerging countries and their demand and ,eeds for greater resources both looking at urbanization as well as population increase, extreme whether. -- weather -- -- and thegin depletion of some of the resources -- looking at the infrastructure demand, ernst & young estimates 57 trillion until 2030.

the amount of money that could be lost and resources or that could be saved could make a huge deference -- difference in terms of the people the world. very, verythose are interesting. we have to open up our mind to way and bring the people together. the discussion right now on the post-2015 new development goals is an opportunity. is culturalat this and the values -- i am asked, his corruption -- is corruption a cultural issue? i say, it is not. it is a practice. it becomes a practice as opposed -- i thinkna hearing

corruption is a cancer. very virulent. we could go on. to think about it in those terms. .o ahead >> let me make a parable. i spent this time yesterday morning listening to the mayor of new york making a speech. about how new york is driving during his administration, which is true. when you look at part of what has happened in new york and the york inyears -- in new the past 25 years, a lot has happened. one big change that was made in era and by his premises are -- predecessor was

they started dealing with petty crime. -- breaking windows, everybody who demanded money for cleaning your windshield. stealing pocketbooks. not much attention was made. they said, let's deal with the petty crime. somehow, that spread into a major crime. is entirely a different city with a different culture than it was 30 years ago. you could not walk down park avenue 30 years ago without turning around to see if anybody was following you. safest is one of the cities in the u.s. who would have ever thought that 7 million would be the safest?

because they have been disciplined about the petty stuff and some of the other things. it shows up in a different culture. poll vinson -- jim wilkinson youames wolfensohn, can contribute anything else? >> the largest economy in the world will be china soon. terms oferience, in them joining into agreements in terms of disclosure, for example , they have been clearly absent. -- completely absent. when you talk about bidding for international contracts or anything that they are engaged in in terms of their financial arrangements, it is not clear, to put it mildly. if you have a country like china

which will be the leading economy in the world, how does your program do with that? >> no one country, no matter how big, is an island. if we all work together to require that of them, i think they have to step up. they are not self-sufficient in everything. they will have to deal with others. size andcumb to their operate the way they operate, i think we have made the cancer a terminal one. i would like to look at this that has created a cancer for all of us. the good thing is, it can be treated. unlike most cancers.

hopefulr thing is, i am mature andey become more prosperous, hopefully they move up in terms of values. meantime, since they are not yet there am a it is incumbent on the leaders -- since they are not yet there, it is incumbent on the leaders to make sure this happens. ace u.s. is still the pl to start this issue. use it under your breath, good question. i'm wondering how you would respond? >> the big issue at the g-8 meeting was for insperity. taxes. -- was transparency. taxes. if you look at china

specifically, everything we are hearing coming out of the latest the, even at looking -- looking at their choices of further have chosen to the issue, they chose firemen of china to tackle this issue. this is a guy who is widely known as no-nonsense and tremendously committed and successful. i think that the words and the deeds we are hearing out of jim, are encouraging. this administration seems to be much more committed. let's keep going. the reforms they are making in terms of letting the market

determine the his tradition of resources. these are revolutionary. we will hope that this leads to a kind of openness that ends up being a model for the world, if they continue with what they have told us. his activities are all related to corruption internally. they are not related to corruption that relates to external business. i think that is a very big hurdle to jump. is toin, i think our role be as vigilant as we possibly can and call it out when we see it. -- the firstsion decision i had to make was this one. it set a tone. we have to do. we have to call it out when we see it. we have to encourage it everyone, especially all the major players, to look at it internally and externally.

i think the new york example is a good one. there are so many things that happen because they set targets and went after them. and climate change, mayor bloomberg said we would reduce by 2030. 30% they are going to get there by 2017. you can just say, we are going to deal with corruption generally. you have to have targets. if you have those in china and everywhere else, and we are started to see it -- very strong commitments, this has got to be an area, corruption, where we may commit his progress. guestsgoing to give our to sendsync up -- everybody way who is watching online and here in the auditorium, something for them to chew over that keeps them going, that makes this memorable for them. i will give you 203 minutes.

i will ask poll vinson -- jim wolfensohn to give us one more antidote. to yourbulous listen stories. you have one? should talk to jim yong kim, the current president. do you have anything that you would like to bring to our attention? [laughter] >> there is no particular story. entered, itf when i is an ongoing issue. the other piece of that story is that happens to be a critical development project. this was -- canceling was difficult. -- canceling it was difficult.

these are the things that we have to balance. i had to cancel something that would have had a huge development impact. that is the red line that you have to draw. no matter how important a development impact might be, you have to be ready to cancel something if you see carrots and -- corruption. it was a few people, a few people who had done this. now, we hope it goes forward. it is unclear whether it will go forward. as the difficulty of this job. -- that is the difficulty of this job. you've to be ready to make that kind of decision. mueller, -- paul

volcker, you seem to want to say something. >> china within the world but also within the u.n. in the oil for food program. principle violators were chinese companies. a principle -- among the principle violators. to try and get the chinese government to react, it was a blank wall. they won't deal with it. they won't consider it. it was just a few years ago, but i'm not sure how much has changed today. >> a quick one. i think that a lot of the natural resources of the future are in highly vulnerable countries and developing countries. i think if we can support those countries and help them, give

themselves the capacity and power to be able to negotiate with the very strong powers which are some of our countries, in addition to china, who want those resources, that is one thing i would like to leave. a second one is on the whole issue that, you know, if we could relegate power and greed to a new cemetery somewhere, that would help. my third -- my last point is that, you know, we were talking about development, which is so important and we know the impediment that corruption is to development. money is taken out. people have to pay bribes for essential services which they can't afford to pay for. it is also a question of peace security in our countries around the world. of course that, too, is a

question of development. it is hard to have development when you have conflicts. but it is a question of peace, of security, of developments. at the end, it is a question of making this world a human one where humanity prevails as opposed to the power and greed. >> mr. wolfersohn? i just d say -- congratulate jim and the formation of this new unit, which strikes me as being a practical, important step forward. i wish them not only the very best of luck, but would hope that they would tackle some of in very difficult cases also publicity and in the annual meeting speech and things. not only talk about the successes but just how tough it is in so many of the countries

because i think a statement of all the successes is useful, but i do think that even more useful prevalent ent in how the practice of corruption and inequity still is. and so i would hope that this department can report in two phases. one, what it has done, but also how much is to be done. >> there is a direct correlation between poverty and corruption. and if the world bank's goal is to reduce poverty, it would have to make an equal amount of investment in working towards the reduction of corruption. i think this is especially important because corruption and

poverty is affecting countries that are the younger countries. those that have the potential to be -- of the world. so it is to our interests, because after all, economies are about people and the young, most of the young of the world are in vens that are dealing with countries that are dealing with these challenges. , my aim -- speak up was to make this the most fascinating hour of conversation of your week. i will find out if it was when you applaud our panel. hold it for one moment. mr. wolfersohn, madame labelle, mr. volcker, dr. kim. your panel, ladies and gentlemen.

[applause] thank you for coming. have a wonderful morning. thank you. >> coming up on c-span, aflcio president talks about jobs and the u.s. economy. and former u.s. ambassador to brazil talks about u.s./brazil relations and later senator john mccain on his trip to the ukraine. >> as a moderate in the privacy debate and in the privacy world, i have come to a troubling conclusion. the data broker industry as it

is today does not have constraints and does not have a shame. it will sell any information about any person regardless of sensitivity for 7.9 cents a name, which is the price of a list of rape sufferers, which was recently sold. lists of rape sufferers, victims of domestic violence, police officer's home addresses, people who suffer from genetic illnesses, complete with names, home addresses, ethnicity, gender and many other factors. this is what's being sold and circulated today. it is a far cry from visiting a website and seeing an ad. what it is is a sale of the

personally identifiable information and highly sensitive information of americans. >> this weekend on c-span, your medical history, income, lifestyle, the senate commerce committee looks into data mining saturday morning at 10:00 eastern. on c-span 2's book tv, without a strong middle class, the u.s. is heading for an economic implosion that will make the great depression seem tame. saturday night. and by august, 19 harks it was becoming clear that a struggle for global dominance had begun, from world war to cold war sunday at 10:30 p.m. eastern. sits down tosident talk about the economy, immigration and the state of

labor in the u.s. r. trumka. >> i have my twitter machine here. ask our guest. i would like to thank the bank of america for making these conversations possible. what a year. a dozen labeled breakfast. we appreciate their support. book breakfasty of the year, we are honored to have someone who started working in the coal mines in pennsylvania for $2.96 an hour. now he is president of the afl- cio. richard trumka. [applause]

thank you for coming in. thank you for being here for our last wreck this. we appreciate it. what do you do? prompts, roof supports. you put crossbars across. we would put those up as you invent the mining system. we would put those up. i made half a cent a more than i do. out to first reached you, you weren't in town. you were deer hunting. how did you do? >> i did well. it was a tough season. i ended up taking some nice box. 10 points, a nice buck.

>> what are you going to make? >> some sausage, stakes. >> you told me there is one beat -- meat that is tastier than dear. -- deer. >> elk. >> you've taken some in your time? >> i have. >> the big issue, we have heard everyone talking about, the increasing income inequality in the country. and a halfnt 11 million working men and women. >> there are a number of things we can do. you have the wage stagnation that could be held. years,look back over the from 1946 to 1973, productivity

in this country doubled, and so did wages. the interesting thing about that was that the bottom to quartiles , wages were raising faster than the people at the top. represented 35- 40% of the workforce. >> what is the figure? >> we are 12%. >> we were driving wages of the entire industry. fromgotiated wages read 73, wages have stagnated. the difference between those figures, it is gone to the top one percent because we represent 12% of the workforce. you push for full employment. for polemic comes -- it will create more demand for the middle class and allow them to be purchasing and create more

jobs. >> full employment. >> four percent would be the goal to shoot for. >> what about the people who are underemployed? that is what hits me when i read stories. to live onare trying the jobs that they once would've thought they would get when they get out of school. whose ambitions have been curtailed. >> they are the underreported about people. they are unemployed. they don't work 40 hours. they do not make enough wages. more and more that is young people. people under 30 years old. more and more with women. those groups of americans are taking the price for it. it is becoming more of the trend rather than last. part-time jobs, some have a

couple our time jobs to try to get by. the should be focused on underemployment. we ignore them. in this country we talk about unemployment, we do not talk about unemployed -- underemployed people. , vice president biden uses the expression fingertip feel. you get the bureaucratic side of it. you talk to the hill all the time. you are also a politician. you were reelected as president. >> my grandfather would not be happy with you calling me a politician. >> or a bureaucrat. >> worst yet. grandfathersur were called miners. >> correct. both of his brothers, my uncles, and many of my cousins were coal miners. -- your son became a

though you. what happened to him? >> he saw the errors of my way. it was a different world. the minds of that time weren't hiring. quite frankly, i wanted to make sure he had a good education and had options open to him. had he chosen to go in the mines, i would have been proud and happy. i decided that he wanted to go into law. he practices in litigation and represents workers. >> that is your consolation. >> my consolation is whatever he does that makes him happy. it would be ok by me. .ou can't live in my shadow yesterday would he wants to do. by and large, he does what he thinks. time. has for some

>> he was born to be a litigator, i can tell you that. was tworeat story, he years old at the time, and he had done something. i was about to discipline him. he stood with his hands on his , and he told me you can't scare me, i am in the union. i thought i had gotten through at least. >> i got sidetracked. i was about to ask you, what is the biggest story of working conditions in this country for regular americans beyond the beltway the media has missed? >> every day is a challenge to get by. those without jobs are struggling. we just did a budget deal that didn't include an extension of you why -- ui.

>> that was the number one thing you wanted to talk about. why is that so important? >> to have 1.3 million people who are going to have no benefits as of december 31. 2014,rst six months of another 1.9 billion americans will be without any kind of income or support. these are long-term unemployed people. just -- itmore than is not about a campaign issue. it is about treating them. when it comes to helping those workers, those unemployed workers, santa is not the only one making a list this time of year. we are making our own list as well. to make sure that they don't get left behind. look what happens. they get left behind. we lose gdp.

we lose jobs. we lose buying power. everybody gets left back. these are people that have bad luck. the plant shut down. they were laid off. i do not have an opportunity to go back to work. we really want them to make sure that they do. your question is, what is out there? it is challenging. people are struggling to find a job. those with a job or worried about losing a job. or losing benefits. those who are little older are struggling and figuring out how are we going to get by in retirement because the 401(k) generation has been a colossal bust for most americans. it has been great for investment bankers and wall street. it hasn't done so well for others. >> one thing the media, and i am speaking broadly, what is the thing we could do to better

cover the lives and realities of working people? wages, about stagnant inequality in a real sense. >> those are concepts. >> talk about someone who struggles. if 55-year-old man who just got laid off and doesn't know where he is going to go. a 22-year-old woman who came out of school at the top of her class and cannot find a job in her chosen field. show those faces. talk about the policies that could make a difference. people on the hill they will say we have a big problem. we have a wage stagnation problem. what are you what to do about it? that is when they get abstract. there is a number policies we could do. instead of talking about cutting social security for instance, we should expand social security so

the under 30 generation doesn't hit a train wreck. they are the lowest percentage of unemployed right now. their wages are lower than they have been. >> how could the u.s. afford to expand? >> it is nonsense. we're the richest nation on the face of the earth. we can afford to do everything we decide to do. just make it a priority. we will pay for it. of thes aren't the cause crisis or a bad economy. they are the result. >> what should the government do less of to pay to expand social security? >> they should do less loopholes. for corporations and the very rich. they should do more spending on infrastructure to make us as a country more competitive as a nation, and create jobs in the process. we should be increasing the

minimum wage. let's talk about that for a second. if minimum wage had cap with $10.75.n, it would be if it had kept pace with productivity, it would be $18.75. if they cap pace with wage oneeases of the top percent, it will be $28 an hour. >> i think something could well happen on minimum wage next year. you look at polling. this is an issue that breaks through. what is your path to action on that? what you hope will happen? >> let me expand that out. growing trend towards populism in this country. it is not matched in the policies. there is a trend towards it. we see this

-- we see this with the election of mayor de blasio. >> you see with the occupy movement, elizabeth warren getting elected. you see it with the way obama running the kind -- rain the campaign against romney. you see it with the pope being named man of the year. the policies haven't caught up with what americans believe. 80% of americans say you ought to increase the minimum wage. 70% think that social security should be increased. >> one of your hats is a lobbyist. you talk to capitol hill. both to get information, to persuade, to inform, to have relationships. what you think could happen on minimum wage? >> i think it could be passed. here is why. it would do -- it would increase

toinimum wage from $7.25 inflation.index for it has to be indexed so we do not run into this problem. the tip wage.ase that is something no one talks about. the tip wage right now is $2.13 an hour. it has a been increased since 1991. by the way, three quarters of the people that work or earn tip wages are women. they get hit the hardest. it would increase take weight -- tip wages 70%. it would be a good thing. you can say, is it possible? think about this. chris christie won an election. the same electorate that elected him, by the same margin, increased the minimum wage and

index the minimum wage in new jersey. only a policy that is not should happen, but will happen. and must happen for the good of the economy. >> do think this republican house would pass it? >> they will not have a choice. sentiment right now. they're going to take it on the chin. they are alienating latinos and immigrants. they are alienating african- americans. they are alienating catholics by going after the pope, calling the pope a marxist. >> the speaker is catholic. >> i love his remark. >> beaker boehner is catholic. -- beaker boehner is catholic. >> he is not the only one who speaks for the republican party. >> you have a problem.

your problem is your shrinking. in 2002 -- >> my suits started looking baggy. [laughter] inyou had 13 million members 2002. in last year, you had 11.5 million members. what do you do to get more members? >> we are doing several things. the answer to that is the same thing we have to do to make the country better. we have to change the political climate, the legislative climate, and the economic climate. >> that is all. >> we can do that before an election. we are working on it. we have to organize. what we are doing is expanding out to talk about progressive friends. when you talk about the policies of progressive america together, we are the majority. we don't act like that. we have been allowed to be beaten in echelon.

a are trying to put together coalition of progressive people. we reached out before our convention. we stood reaching out to friends and allies. past, we would come up with the solution and would say join us. let's change that. first, let's sit down and all of us try to create that solution. six months before the convention, we joined with progressive friends and allies , to the sierra club. >> women's groups? >> yes. groups.fferent we talk about problems and solutions. we decided to open up the labor movement, to bring the men.

we form strategic partnerships .ith those that is changing the economic climate, the political climate. >> it used to be the if you are going to organize, you could go to a factory or to mine. you cannot do that anymore. one of the most fascinating things i have been researching in this conversation is the concept of fragmented workplaces. car washers, cabdrivers in outlay and new york. people who don't work in any concentrated location. how do you reach them? >> there are other groups. i should correct you on one thing. you can still organize a minor or a factory. workers.o domestic

>> home care is huge and growing. >> we go at it very labor intensive. go and talk to them and find out your needs. bring them together and start to develop issues to work together. it is very labor intensive. we have been successful at it. 27,000 taxicab drivers in new york city. domestic workers from los ohio.s to michigan to car wash workers in new york and the west coast. we are organizing. >> you are seeing other signs of people getting interested. you are seeing fast food workers that are fed up with minimum wage and the bad treatment they get starting to come together and demand better wages. , thousandskers across the country coming

together to try and change the walmart model, which quite frankly drives the low-wage model in the country. >> a lot of what you have been talking about is developing friends and allies as opposed to formal news paying members. a formal membership probably peaked? >> i think we are on the rise. we have more members this year than we had two years ago. labor.ffiliated the we re-affiliated, we have more members than we did a couple of years ago. the question is, is it enough? is it enough to do the changes? change the economy, change the legislative environment? the answer is no. we decided we have to reach out to progressive groups because all of us will have a difficult time.

the entrenched power that exists in the political system through elitesnd with the because of their connections, interconnections with one another, it will be difficult for all of us coming together. that is the goal. that is the direction we are heading in. bring progressive people together. start educating about the economy. not just our members. nonunion members. start talking to candidates at the lower level. educate them on the economy. make sure that they understand how the economy works and how it doesn't work. -- makeke the lead just them understand the models that are out there. >> a couple of twitter questions coming in. -- s is from how would you ease the transition from a coal and natural gas economy to a renewable economy? timeu have to look at the

that it happens. about 50% ofoduces the energy in the country. fuels every corner that is out there. to're not going to be able shut them down overnight, nor should you. the transition is to focus on people. let me give you an example of a way i grew up. i grew up in a small mining town. the town was built around that mine. when it went down, the town went down. there were mines like that everywhere. there was a cotton mill in north carolina, or clothing mill in maine or massachusetts. you go through that transition. it wasn't all at once. ,e have to focus on the people and transitioning them. not just giving them a fancy