it also has to be something that is embraced by the chain of command. that dialogue is something that becomes more common. sector, any population, if you talk about people who have issues, not as them, but as all of us, because we have all had our own set of issues, some have been more support than others, and i think the more it is discussed to feel that way or think about suicide or taking your own life, people who talk about that, i think it makes it more, you will have more people who are potentially thinking about committing suicide to come forward and seek out help. also, having the conversation that help is actually there and showing where resources are so when they come forward there listen to. >> it is so common. everybody is carrying a weapon all the time. it is so easy to think about. it is something that nobody talks about when you are still

in. everybody's got something. if you are having a bad day, it is really easy to have that spiral in your mind. of,ng the dialogue everybody's thought about it, but nobody talks about it, and very few people admit having thought about it, making it more of a community thing and everybody empathizing with each other is really important, and giving veterans that sense of acceptance and engagement at think is really good. me, when itfor comes to the subject of suicide, it is a really personal one. i attempted twice after i got back. what really has ensured my survival is the fact of definitely my work through art and my work for writing, starting on that path. i couldn't say everything i wanted to say, but at least i had it down. i got it out. encouraging different outlets.

it may be too uncomfortably to vocally talk, but to keep a diary, a journal, and to be able to put it away and come back to it later, the encouragement of those alternatives really does some ofr me, because these topics are just too uncomfortable to share right away. back and say,ome hey, this is how i felt a few days ago, and this is how i feel atay, and i'm able to look that and say, those feelings passed and they weren't as resilient as i thought they would be, and then to build on that and be like, this is a year ago and this is how i felt then and to be able to look back on is on paper, it is just as real as talking to somebody, but at the same time, it is not as powerful as keeping it inside. is a healthy medium, creating artistically and being able to was as artistically

healthy medium for me that i was able to build on overtime. >> we have to stop. thank you to our panelists. thank you, everybody, for coming. [applause] >> [indiscernible] >> thank you so much. >> thank you. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national

cable satellite corp. 2013] coming up tonight on c-span, a roundtable on the role of religion and faith and politics and public life. that is followed by a memorial service to remember the victims of pan am flight 103. later, c-span's year and review looks over the senate's nuclear option. wednesday, c-span's year end surveillancees nsa programs. we will look back at the leak of classified documents by nsa contractor edward snowden, congressional hearings, and we talked to reporter mark rossetti. that is at it :00 p.m. eastern on c-span. coming up on the next "washington journal," an examination of what is working and not working with the affordable care act. kenen.st is joanne

then a discussion on the key supreme court cases of 2013. we will be joined by mark tushnet. "washington journal" is live every day at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> what we know of the founders condore, the 32nd -- 30-se version, the guys who were against the constitution were the religious guys, that included patrick henry, who wanted to have religious tests for office holding and so forth. the founders were the cosmopolitans, and yet, most of them were probably christians, but why did they take the approach they did? why do they ultimately come down where madison came down? they believe also that no faith was beyond faction. medicines prescription was essentially a multiplicity of

sects. >> there have been important developments in the law over the last couple of decades in terms of government funding and religious institutions. i would say that there were some real issues to work through and to figure out. the rule that govern this area during the clinton years or the early clinton years were different. they changed over time. some people think that was a good thing, and some people think that was a bad thing. there are some really important issues that people fight about and fight about with some legitimate disagreements. >> christmas day on c-span, current and former heads of the white house faith-based offices on the separation of church and state at 12:30 eastern. tv, anan 2 possible illustrated account of the great war, july 1, 1915. that is at 5:00. on c-span 3, from 1957, follow

bob hope as he travels across the pacific for his annual uso to her of southeast asia, including stops in vietnam. on december 11, an external cooling line failed on the international space station forcing the crew to turn off all nonessential equipment and stop scientific research. tuesday, two nasa astronauts successfully completed a seven hour and 30 minute spacewalk to transport and install a new ammonia pump to help resolve the cooling system. here is a look. >> i'm ready. now beginning to drive my cop back towards the installation truss of thehe s-1 international space station where the spare pump will be installed. hopkins instructed -- extracted

the pump a few minutes ago, 14 minutes ago, after releasing a thats of four bolts completed the de-mating portion of today's activities. we are approaching the 2.5-hour mark of the spacewalk. the crew is operating efficiently. the international space station continues to fly smoothly with its occupants approaching the coast of peru. we saw you grabbed your adjustable from those electrical connectors. you will see your adjustable up on top of it as well. >> thank you. i do have the adjustable from the cables. >> copy. meanwhile, written the strike io is cleaning up some of the -- hio is cleaning up some of the thermal insulation around the slot on external

stowage platform number three. the degraded pump that was removed from the space station by the two during their first on saturday will be reinstalled in that stowage platform spot, but not today. the degraded pump that was removed that went down due to an internal valve problem two weeks on aill remain housed payload attachment bracket on the mobile base system of the international space station, the stations railcar system, if you will. that will be dispositioned during a future spacewalk, but not today.

>> nice work. we are about two hours and 31 minutes into the eva> about 30 minutes gone on the timeline. no problem. we have plenty of consumables. >> copy that. >> copy. our limiting consumable is battery. we are looking good, guys. >> copy.

>> flying high over peru, mike hopkins wielding the pump module, the spare pump, as he is being maneuvered into the position. >> that would be awkward, yet. [laughter]

>> next, a discussion on the role of faith and religion and politics, public life, and civics. from "washington journal," this is an hour. --t: our conservation concert -- conversation here is the role of religion in politics and public life. joining us is dr. richard land. ise in studio with me reverend barry lynn who is the executive director of the americans united for separation of church and state. gentleman, but a big thank you for coming in on christmas eve. we appreciate your time. dr. lynn, let me begin with you. where in the constitution does it say that there is a separation of church and state, and how do you read that? know, that phrase, as you

is not in the constitution. we have the first amendment. baptists are in large part responsible for that amendment being there that says, among other things, that congress shall make no law suspect -- affecting the establishment of religion nor interfering with the free exercise thereof. the phrase, separation of for cash of church and state, comes most famously from a letter that thomas jefferson as president wrote to the baptists of danbury, connecticut who were being discriminated against by a state church in connecticut. all the restrictions in the first amendment are on the government. the government cannot establish a religion. the government cannot interfere with the free exercise of religion. cannot violate the first amendment. only the government can do that. host: reverend lynn? guest: no argument about that.

i'm glad richard does believe as a baptist that there is a separation of church and state in the constitution. last 100t that for the years the united states supreme court has been arguing about its specific meaning. i think richard and i are not quite that old. we have only been are going for the past 25 years. , itphrase, to be precise is, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. congress had an opportunity in the first congress to pass a piece of language that would have said, congress shall not establish a national religion. they rejected the proposition because it was too narrow. this is a very broad proposition, and it covers, and in my judgment, ought to do precisely what john kennedy said as running for president, establishing an america where the separation of church and state was absolute, specifically where politicians would not

follow specific religious doctrine in order to govern. they would look to the constitution. preachers would not tell the convert -- their congregations for whom to vote. he said, religious entities would depend on their own contributions, not the funds of government. is it subject to debate and interpretation? guest: of course. of course it is. that is veryng important that is often overlooked in the constitution ,s that we do have article vi which says, no religious test for office. at the time that was passed, many of our state governments had religion tests to serve in public office. the federal constitution specifically rejected that. as a baptist, i'm glad they did. a person shouldn't have to espouse a certain faith to be in office and shouldn't be disqualified from office because

they don't have a certain faith. that should be left entirely up to the voters. whether or not a candidate wants to share his faith or whether his faith is important to him should be up to him, and should not be a question of legality. i think that people who are running for office, if religion is important to them -- i remember joseph lieberman talking about the fact, you cannot understand who i am unless you understand that i'm a person who is an observant jew -- that is his right to say that. if the voters want to take that into consideration, they can. if they don't. bill bradley when he was running for president said, i'm not going to talk about my faith. i think that is a private matter. that is within his rights. decide whether that is the kind of senator or kind of president they want. separation between the government and religion. we should. as far as i'm concerned, i will

use an athletic analogy -- the government shouldn't be a cheerleader for religion, the government shouldn't be a coach for religion, the government shouldn't be a sponsor for religion, and the government shouldn't be a cesnor or suppressor of religion. the governor should be an umpire. the government make sure everybody plays fair. the majority is not silenced by the minority. the minority is not silenced by the majority. everybody gets their turn at bat. guest: it is hard to disagree with the basic principles that richard has articulated. it is in the nuances, the nitty- gritty details, the weeds on the side of the road that we have in norma's battles that go all the way to the united states supreme court. he is also right that we don't have religious test for public office. there are still a few states who have, unenforceable by other decisions, prohibitions against atheists holding public office.

i have a friend in south carolina who ran for a minor political office and was told he couldn't run because he was an atheist. he had itged the law, overturned, and certainly, in the older days, in the 1940s and 1950s, the baptists and the southern baptist convention would have said amen to that. no religious tests. canou have no religion, you still be a first-class citizen in america. you can still run for any office. that is the way it ought to be. host: do you want to respond? most southern baptists would still say that. they probably wouldn't vote for the atheist, but the atheist has a right to run for public office. baptists, we supported in 1962 and 1963 the supreme court decisions on prayer in schools, but we have since been concerned about what justice goldberg was concerned about -- justice gulbarga in his concurring

, thison said, we should decision does not mean that there should be a hostility to religious expression by individuals in public schools, be interpretedto that way, it would be just as unconstitutional as what we have just rolled against. had to deal on a fairly regular basis with third and fourth graders who were told that because of the separation of church and state, when the teacher said, bring something to share and speak about in school, if they brought a book of bible stories, they were told they couldn't talk about that because that is a violation of the separation of church and state, each is absolute nonsense. guest: not absolute nonsense. most of those cases, and you hear a lot about it this season of the year -- the holiday season, a.k.a. the christmas season -- or somebody on one of the cable networks will say, there is an attack on christmas,

a war on christmas. they can't allow children to wear green and red clothing? or was that done as part of a play written by someone else. when these controversies come up, it costs money for public relations people to go to these school districts and try to correct the record. most of this, i will not say no teacher has ever made a mistake and violated a young person's right. i remember a case in virginia. somebody was told she could not read the bible on a public school bus. of course you can read a bible. you can read stephen king, you

can read anything. when it comes to classroom activities, it is a much closer question. there is no systematic, if any, attack on christian students in america's public schools. we are neutral. neutrality is the principle when it comes to religion and government in public spaces with public money. host: let me show the two of you every cent ad -- a recent ad put together by mark pryor of arkansas, up for reelection in 2014. here is a recent ad. [video clip] >> i am not ashamed to say that i believe in god and in his word. the bible teaches us nobody has all the answers, only god does. neither political party is always right. this is my confidence, my north star. it gives me comfort and guidance to do what is right for arkansas. i am mark pryor, this is who i

am in what i believe. host: reverend lynn, appropriate? guest: completely inappropriate. this is a terrible way to start a campaign. trying to interject religion in multiple ways. we do not look to holy scripture to make outlook policy in washington or in any state capital. we should be looking to the commonly shared values of the constitution. there are really good ones there. and not act like anyone's holy scripture, including the bible, is a kind of ethical road map through all of the issues. it is inconceivable to me that senator pryor or any of his colleagues could decide policy on syria, edward snowden, obamacare, based on some kind of facts he would gain from his christian bible. and then apply them to the

complexities of this life. that is not what the bible is. he is perfectly in his right to talk about his belief in jesus christ. when he seems to tie that as a guide to its public policymaking, he is making a very big mistake. constitutionally and personally. host: dr. land? guest: it is a totally appropriate ad. he is running for senate and was the people of arkansas to know who he is. he feels that in order to do that he needs to explain his faith. it is very important in his life. he happens to be a southern baptist. it is based upon his understanding of scripture. and the very famous speech that john f. kennedy made in 1960 when he was a senator in texas, my hometown of houston. his understanding of scripture. and the very famous speech that john f. kennedy made in 1960 when he was a senator in texas, my hometown of houston. my pastor at the time was there. i was 13 years old and was eager to hear his report after

listening to senator kennedy. senator kennedy said he would be guided by his conscience in making decisions, not by any external authority. and he would be guided by his conscience. but if his conscience came into conflict with his duties as president, he would resign the office. we have to assume that john f. kennedy's conscience would be guided by his catholic faith. when it comes to obamacare, my bible teaches me that life begins at conception. i do not think i should be forced to pay for other people's abortions. for people of religious faith, many believe the bible is a guidepost when it comes to the sanctity of human life.

it is a totally appropriate ad. the people of arkansas and not some legislature but the people of arkansas will decide if that is the kind of senator they want or not. guest: here is where bible interpretation turns into a conflict between the two of us. the bible never mentions abortion or obamacare. we do know that abortion or fetusg a miscarriage of a was not the same thing as hurting or killing the mother. every other reference may be poetic. you turn to the bible and you are looking at the wrong document. guest: i could not disagree more, barry. host: i will get our viewers involved.

loretta isfirst, -- first. caller: merry christmas, everybody. i do not know where to begin. we should have a separation between church and state. it is not because doing any good right now. we have the republicans cutting food stamps, cutting everything for the poor and they call themselves christians. thereverend lynn, if god is one that is going to do all the judging, you have nothing to do with any woman having an abortion. let god do the judging. that is what is wrong in congress right now.

the republicans think they run everything, that america is there's. here they come with all of the evil, wicked policies that have screwed this country up. host: all right, loretta. the telephone just fell. we will get that straightened out. we will go to dr. land. guest: i do not believe anyone should have an absolute right of life or death over another human being. i believe the unborn baby dies. it is the most common form of death in the united states. it would be the most common form of death if you count abortion. more people die from that than from heart disease or diabetes.

i am a huge fan of mothers. i plead guilty to being a mother possibly -- mother's boy. our unborn citizens deserve the protection of the law. theythey are conceived, deserve the protection of the law. the decision is between a mother and a doctor. they are forgetting there is a third person involved. they are the one that dies if an abortion takes place. guest: here we go again. you call this murder. guest: i did not call it murder. it is the taking of an unborn life. life begins at conception. that is a statement of scientific fact. guest: that is not a statement of scientific fact.

guest: sure it is. guest: he is a doctor. guest: most of the few attrition's would say that is a different opinion. dr. frisk determined that terri schiavo, that she needed additional food and subsidence from water during that conflict about a decade ago. he was doing his diagnosis from the senate floor. this is not the way we make public policy. people have different views human life becomes a person who is entitled to constitutional rights. that is where the supreme court got it right. i think the tide is not moving very quickly in your direction. guest: it is moving more quickly in public opinion.

i i live a normal lifespan, will live to see roe v wade on the ash heap of history. >guest: you are living at this time on another big issue for you and that is marriage equality and what you would call same-sex marriage. the issue is lost in the general public polling and the polling evangelicals who characterize themselves as evangelicals. you have lost that battle. host: i will have you respond. that michaud our viewers some polling and a map that shows same-sex marriage data in the united states, new mexico, the most recent state to approve gay marriage. go ahead, dr. land.

guest: we are losing the battle when it comes to same-sex marriage but winning to the battle of human life from natural death and everywhere in between. you never completely lose a battle. if you lose, you can come back and make a better argument the next time. we decide these things by the judgment of the american people over the long haul. if you are not live out a normal lifespan, we will live to see roe v wade on the ash heap of history. interestingebate is but i have to get into more phone calls. greensboro, north carolina. hi there. caller: hello. merry christmas to all. guest: merry christmas.

abortion, and as a lot of my fellow southern baptists south of greensboro agree it is murder, there is no other way to put it. incest,ase of rape or that is wrong. abortion is wrong. as far as gay marriage goes, neither of these men would be here if they were the product of a gay marriage. you cannot tell me that two male females could create a child. guest: i could have been adopted. we are changing the definition of family. it is hard to know what forms a

marriage now -- when the senses people figure out who is living where, they find lots of children not being abused and nothing wrong with her upbringing and they are being raised by two men or two women. this can be a completely responsible way to raise children. if we get rid of some of the fears that are interjected into this debate by my friends of the so-called religious right, do not help the debate and do not elevate the political discourse and build in stereotypes which experience and sometimes science says are not true. host: to research poll -- pew research poll, abortion viewed in moral terms. and marie, -- ann marie,

independent caller. caller: good morning. guest: good morning. this is ann mairie. i wanted to make a comment. thinks itynn, if he is possible to separate the conscience from the decisions. we are all guided by something. i would wonder who the reverend is governed by. our personalte opinion about something. there is some level within our being that is guided by our conscience and i do not believe separation of church and state is really absolute. you are always going to have some conscience in there. separatedo not want to

your conscious or my conscience from private decision-making. i do not want the government to decide on certain issues these very intimate issues or issues like on religious beliefs done same-sex marriage or over abortion and contraception. the government should not be picking and choosing the winners of those battles of conscience. we should be capable of going to their parishioner and making moral arguments. if the moral arguments fair, i do not think you can say, we failed. our parishioners disagree with us on contraception. so fast a law prohibiting it. do not covered by insurance. you do not turn to the government when you have not used moral suasion successfully on a person who say they believe

the same as you do. host: dr. richard land? guest: let me go back to a previous caller. murderer has to have a common societal definition. the issue of abortion is not commonly agreed upon. the taking of a human life, yes. the definition has to be societally affirmed. when it comes to conscience, of course. your conscience is going to guide you, we hope. confirmednscience are by being reared in a specific country. there are generational influences on your conscience. if iteve your conscience, is guided by your religious

faith, you have a right to bring that to bear on public policy. that is what dr. king did. he was a baptist minister. the boycott was started in alabama in a church. he was in jail and said i am in jail because i refuse to obeyan y an unjust law. the civil rights movement was not impose i the judiciary. evil deedd there are in plessy versus ferguson. that in the brown versus board of education decision. dr. king dissuaded the american

people that segregation was wrong. thank god that he did. which we didsed in the civil rights act, 1967 voting rights act. that legislation was upheld by the judiciary. it wasn't the government imposing it. ,t was the american people by the forthright confrontation of the civil rights movement, saying this is immoral and wrong. we are going to impose our morality on george wallace and we are going to impose our morality on bull connor because they are trying to impose their immorality on african-americans.

host: we have a tweet from laura. host: recent polling showing the growth of the nonreligious, the people who say they are not religious is a growing in this country. guest: i am tired of the culture wars, too. i think everybody is tired of the culture wars. that does not mean they are going to end. we are a very evenly divided country on many issues. i live in charlotte, north carolina, the home of billy graham. there is a different cultural in new yorkre than city. what we have to do is understand this is going to continue and we

need to not question people's motives and to understand the people have different convictions. the way we decide these things is who we elect to office. this next call from kentucky, republican caller. caller: good morning. merry christmas. this is about religion and politics. politicians,of our when they go home, they go to they praychurches and to their own gods, which is one god to me. when they go back to washington, i think they use religion in a solid way to make decisions. that is the way it has always

been. that is my remark. suggesting yous have to remove all of your religious convictions when you walk into the capital by the halls of the white house, even if you live there permanently. what we are saying is in some of these issues, particularly those involving religion, it is not up to politicians to decide what religious viewpoint is best or not so good. do not pick winners or losers. one of the things the polls demonstrate is that people with no religious affiliation have become dyed in the wool atheists. some have. a lot of other people consider themselves spiritual or religious people.

say, i am just embarrassed by the way -- and they will name somebody in the religious right who said some outlandish thing or some law they try to pass. they try to pass a law in north carolina that would allow each county to determine which religion to affiliate itself with. i do not think there will be a lot of muslim or scientology counties in north carolina. this was a way to christianize the state, county by county. john stuart was able to laugh it off the legislative table. unless they are very clearly opposed by people like yourself, these issues, as an apparent -- embarrassment to thinking seriously about moral and

ethical issues. called in.nones were a majority have not rejected god to what they perceive is the form of organized religion that they were affiliated with when they were growing up. religion is so healthy in america compared to other countries around the world. showed 44%poll that of american adults have change their faith. that is an enormous lead healthy statistic. we have religious freedom in this country. we have the freedom to reject a faithor adopt a new without any social pressure that would negate that. are inople in a faith

that faith because they believe it and because it is meeting their needs and not because of some social pressures. you will see a continued landscape that is in flux, but we have been and we will continue to be a predominantly religious country. in may be more pluralistic than it has in the past. that idea that we have developed a society where you are truly free to worship as you please or not to worship without economic penalty or government penalties or social penalties is one of the reasons that we are such a religious country and one of the reasons that religion is healthy in america. host: this is the so-called pew rise andones on the how it has grown since 2007.

carol in florida. caller: hosthi. i firmly believe in the separation of church and state. i remember it was used before the invasion of iraq. my husband and i marched against that invasion. my brother tommy that i should be praying instead of protesting. i believe in prayer. i also believe that god expects me to act on my conscience. i also do not believe anyone has the power over life and death. you may be waiting to see the end of roe versus wade. i am waiting to see george w. bush charge with murder. host: dr. richard land. guest: i agree you have the

right and i would argue if you feel that strongly about it, the conviction to peacefully protest. i believe we should be praying every day. my bible tells me i should be praying incessantly and i try to do that as often as possible. you have the right to protest. we obviously disagree about former president bush. i do not think -- i think there is a far better chance that rose v wade is going to be resend it then george w. bush charged with murder. host: we have a tweet. there is a certain amount of truth to that. the supreme court has said when

it comes to some of these tenacious religious issues, the supreme court of a state ought to be the final determinant of what a statute means. justice rehnquist did believe there should be some experimentation. that is why we at americans united for separation of church and state go into court to challenge something that might be approved under the federal constitution will go into a state and prevail and defeat school voucher programs using state constitutions. that is an issue right now in colorado and new hampshire. we try to use it. there is a separation and a certain time and place in which the state gets to make its own decisions, many times being more protective of individual freedoms. host: we are talking about the

rule of religion and our guests, barry lynn, and dr. richard land. our debate continues for another 25 minutes or so. i want to get both of your takes on the new pope. it is his first christmas. page -- y," editorial let me begin with you. guest: i think he is exciting. he is revolutionary. he is the first non-european pope in over a millennium. that is quite a statement. the first non-european pope in over a millennium.

he comes from the southern hemisphere. he will bring a lot of fresh perspectives to the industrialized northern hemisphere and to the eurocentric papacy. he is indicative of the fact that unless something extraordinary happens in north america and western europe in the next 30 years, the christian faith within 30 years will be made up or down mentally -- will have a majority i think that he brings a fresh perspective. i applaud his dropping of a lot of the accoutrements of the vatican, and a lot of the privileges, material privileges and his adoption of a simple lifestyle.

i am looking forward to hearing what he has to say about of a lot of things. i think "time" was right in naming him the person of the year. he will be at least as extraordinary as in his influence in the church as john paul ii and john xxiii. guest: an extraordinary set of developments in his life. sometimes people on the right and left impose upon him things that will not be statements in the past but here are a couple things he said i find relevant to the debate about religion in america. a huge number of roman catholics are active and practicing. he has never said he is changing his mind. i suspect he believes what richard land does on the subject

of abortion. on the subject of the poor, he suggests the culture of the world needs to be looked at. we have to look at the poor. this is the whole sentiment of what the christian faith is. most extraordinarily, he has suggested maybe you do not have to be a catholic to know god and have a kind of salvation. these are extraordinary statements. they would come out of the mouth of the most liberal protestant theologians in 1975. you would be horrified the idea that a christian might say, you might not have to be a christian in order to be saved.

host: what is the one issue in u.s. politics that you think the pope could weigh in on and make a big difference? the one issue? guest: i think there is any issue that francis weighed in on what have an impact because of the number of practicing roman catholics in the united states. he can have the most impact on immigration reform. host: and why? guest: if he were to come out strongly in favor of immigration reform, it might take it across the finish line. i am a strong supporter of comprehensive immigration reform. i think the moral suasion that comes with the papacy would be very important in american political life, particularly if

this -- at this precise moment when immigration reform hangs in the balance. guest: the debate in march on whether companies, for-profit companies, that he would say people, including roman catholics who do not, who believe what the traditional, church teaches on contraception should not use contraception, but i do not think that companies have a corporate conscience to deny to their women employees their right to obtain that to which they are constitutionally entitled. i would love him to say that. i would applaud him. i will attempt to visit him. it is not all that complex.

do not expect the government to pass special rules or to say that companies have developed a conscience. the time that a company is sitting next to me in a pew, i might believe it has a conscience. i would like the pope to weigh in as a matter of common sense. guest: they also require them to pay for it. is one thing to deny it and another thing to pay for it. host: ok. jim is up next. hi, jim. caller: my list keeps growing.

the abortion issue. this person who says he is a reverend, who clearly is not. the taking of a life is against god's law, man's law. it is a pre-meditated murder. you know darn well you are taking a life. in the tv ad, the politician was expressing what he felt. there is nothing wrong with that. it only says freedom of religion. it doesn't say separation -- that is a liberal lie. guest: it doesn't say freedom of religion. these are the ideas that are contained in the constitution. it doesn't say we should have fair trials.

you look at the debates about it. the framers were pretty tough- minded when they came to this. they did not want government to have any say in the policies of religion. they do not want religion to be the basis of the civil government. thomas jefferson refused to declare. in the early days, this was a big and controversial matter. the bible does not say anything about abortion. you can find references where there is a poetic sense that a god knew you when you are in the womb. that has nothing to do with making policy. mark pryor suggested he would be turning to the bible as a place to resolve questions. i have a book on my desk to

remind me and it has solution from scripture about every issue from immigration, abortion, what the next generation of fighter planes -- where is this in the bible? where are the questions answered where we should care about people? where are these specifics mentioned? the answer is they are not. host: i want to throw this tweet at you from mike. guest: well, of course, henry david thoreau went to jail because he did not want to pay taxes during the mexican american war. if you believe you shouldn't have to pay for it, i guess you

can refuse to pay your taxes. some of us will face those issues, if indeed the contraceptive mandate is upheld by the supreme court. we will have to decide if we are going to pay the fine and not having insurance or not. we do not believe we have the right to ask a government -- by the way, that is a great book. i would encourage everybody to read the book. you will see for yourself whether barry lynn is right. it is a great book. i use it as a textbook. i'm not surprised that barry keeps it on his desk. it reminds me of what i am for. guest: it is astonishing. the tweet raises a good question.

if a boss agrees it will not cover particular medical interventions. the bible suggests it is the husband as the head of the family. many christians today say, we are not against african americans but we would prefer the comfort level when there are people like us working in the companies that we run. if we allow this to happen, you end up with anarchy based on a religious claim trumping every law you do not happen to like. many at the conference of catholic bishops believe that to be. you do not get an exemption just because you have a corporate religious objection to something.

host: let me add this to the conversation. guest: i think that churches should pay taxes when all nonprofits pay taxes. i think churches should be treated the way all nonprofit entities should be treated. we have a charitable heritage in this country. one reason is we have decided and discovered that when people are free to give and the government encourages them to do so by giving them a tax exemption, that they give a lot and they give a lot to the march of dimes and to the americans united for separation of church and state and to the seven convention baptist churches. they give a lot to all non-

charitable -- i think all churches should be treated the way all nonprofits are treated. i do not think most americans want nonprofits to be taxed. the system has encouraged people to give and they get to deduct that from their taxes. it has brought about a lot of good in this country and charitable activities around the world. is the system we should keep and encourage. guest: i would like to have these charities that do this on a regular basis engaged in what the law says they need to do. no endorsement to candidates for public office. this administration has been derelict in making some very

minor cosmetic changes that would permit us to have an enforcement of the law that says you cannot use the pulpit or church harking not or church bus in support of one candidate over another. the obama administration has been derelict in not enforcing that. i would like to see that enforced across the board. guest: i do not think that churches should be endorsing candidates. we should be looking for candidates who endorse us. host: we will go to dan in new hampshire. caller: good morning. i would like to preface my comments by saying i am neither a woman nor a doctor. for an abortion which happens

naturally in all mammals, the thought of demarcation of the moment of conception is near impossible. it could be anywhere over a span of two or three weeks. how do you confer citizenship to something that you cannot mark a moment in time? do we name our names and give them egg certificates? a person might be flying over the united states and conceives a child. is that child a citizen? guest: we are not talking about eggs. we are talking about a fertilized egg. every abortion that is done intentionally stops a beating heart.

how about a beating heart as a requirement for citizenship? a baby's heart begins to beat at about 24 days after fertilization, after the egg is fertilized. most women do not know they are pregnant until after 24 days. that is something we should think about this christmas. guest: perhaps as many as 45% of fertilized eggs, whether they have a beating heart or not, do spontaneously abort. i think this is good science. you just said there is not a beating heart until 24 days. when you have this kind of debate that is not so much medical as theological.

you cannot make public policy for every american. there are 2000 different religions in this country. if you're going to allow a politician to make those medical determinations for each and every woman. is unfair and un-american. guest: i believe the american people have a right to make it decision collectively and i believe they will. host: this is a recent story by "roll call." this came out from the house and ministration committee. reverend lynn? guest: i do realize some would say, that phrase is about a christian holiday. there are certain derivations from other pre-christian holidays. this does not worry me.

what worries me is when people under the guise of being responsible and emphasize the celebration of christmas. there is nobody living in this planet who does not know it is christmas and is not tripping over santa clauses and manger scenes on private property. and not something else whether that the hanukkah or the solstice or festivus. guest: i think it is important that you noted they could say happy hanukkah and they could observe ramadan. that is pluralism.

what we believe in is a secular state and a pluralistic society in which people have the right to express their faith, whether it is the christian or jewish faith or no faith. they have a right to their moment in the public square. i would argue we ought to be looking for inclusion rather than exclusion on public property and in private company. >> there is a 10 commandments monument in oklahoma. there is a group and they want to put a monument in a similar location to express their views. hindu americans also want to put a monument there.

guest: i would say that we ought to have, if people say they want to have a creche, if they provide the money, the government should accommodate them. and also symbols of the jewish faith, if people of the jewish faith want to have it or symbols of the islamic faith, and symbols of atheism, if somebody wants to put up a monument to the no god. there has to be some limit on permanency or we would have no room for the senators or congressmen to walk around. i think some acknowledgment is appropriate. these people should have some opportunity. it is the public's space. i think we do better by trying

to be inclusive them by trying to censor, try to pretend that we are not a religious people. we are an overwhelming religious people. to sanitize our public places, to pretend that we are not seems to me is foolish and is unnecessary. guest: i will send you 1/4 of a membership form. it is all are nothing when it comes to the public square. host: gary in virginia, republican caller. caller: hi. guest: merry christmas. caller: merry christmas. i believe abortion is wrong. on the other hand, i do not think the problem is abortion.

the problem is unwanted pregnancy. what the church and what the republican should be focusing on is how do you handle unwanted pregnancy? host: ok. dr. land. guest: i agree and we have a lot of data that shows that the best outcome for children, the best outcome is to be reared in a home with a mother and a father who are married to each other. this is the best outcome for children. the plural of anecdote is not data. the data it is overwhelming on this, whether you will graduate from high school or college, whether you will experiment with illicit drugs or be the subject of sexual or physical abuse.

the best outcomes are mothers and fathers married to each other having children. what i want to argue for is when you have an unwanted pregnancy, if you are not married, the best outcome is to encourage adoption. we have millions of couples waiting for babies. adoption is only chosen unfortunately at the current time by 1% of women who find themselves in what they called a problem pregnancy, which is most often a pregnancy out of wedlock. that to me is a tragedy. i know so many people who want to adopt and so many who have adopted. i know what a beautiful outcome that is. i would encourage churches to provide far more resources and

far more support for adoption. host: the final word to reverend lynn. guest: mothers and fathers are good. i want to stand behind mothers and fathers also. there tends to be more income in those families. poverty has a lot to do with the outcome. do we have comprehensive sex education in the schools so people can understand how they can prevent pregnancies? so many on the religious right fight that. will we make contraceptives available and not decide the debate over contraceptive coverage. most forms of birth control induce abortion. we have to get over that. host: reverend barry lynn and dr. richard land, thank you both.

we appreciate the conversation. >> coming up on the next washington journal, an examination of what is working and what is not with the affordable care act. after that, a discussion of the key supreme court cases of 2013. markll be joined with tushnet. washington journal is live every morning on c-span. wednesday, the year-end view review-- the year in looks at the nsa surveillance. we talk to new york times reporter mark. that is at 8:00 eastern.

>> what we know of the founders, the guys that were against the constitution were the religious conservatives of the day. the anti-federalist. they included patrick henry. they wanted to have religious for officeholders. the founders were cosmopolitans. they were bible believing christians. why did they take the approach they did? that nothey believed state, including their own, was beyond faction. madison's prescription was a multiplicity of sects. >> there have been developments in the law. i would say that there were some real issues to work through. to figure out though rules that

governed this area during the clinton years were different. they changed over time. some people think that was a good thing. some people think that was a bad thing. there are some important issues that people fight about and fight about with some legitimate disagreements. >> christmas day on c-span. current and former heads of the white house offices on the separation of church and state. an illustrated account of the great war. it is at 5:00. span3, from 1967, follow bob hope as he c rossed the pacific on his uso tour. just past 8:00. flightears ago pan am 103 was destroyed by a terrorist bomb.

259 passengers and crew were killed along with 11 people on the ground. next, from the lockerbie burma memorial, a memorial service to honor the victims. this is 45 minutes. [applause] >> thank you, mary kay, for that kind introduction. i hold you personally responsible for the weather today. congratulations. [laughter] it has been said time heals all wounds. you here know that that is not necessarily true. i always remember, will never forget one of the visits i made to lockerbie, where he had the occasion to see the small wooden warehouse in which were stored the various effects of your loved ones.

a white sneaker, a syracuse sweatshirt, christmas presents, photographs. these ordinary items brought home to me came to symbolize for me your pain and your loss, pain and loss that have not diminished even after so many years. they brought home to me the certainty that not all losses are equal. in those early days, you live the words of king david from psalm 11. fly away like a bird to the mountain, for the wicked have drawn their bows and aim their arrows to shoot from the shadows at good people, and there is nothing a good person can do when everything falls apart. and yet you did not fly away. you did not hide. you stood your ground and

maintained the courage of your convictions day after day and year after year. you sought answers and accountability. you sought solace through memorials, lovingly undertaken by so many around the world, and you worked diligently to ensure that other families would not have to endure such suffering. through your actions, through the lives you had led and choices you have made, we see that there is much a good person can do when the world falls apart. you created light out of darkness, and out of that light has come a lasting legacy. a legacy of courage in the face of the greatest adversity. a legacy of solidarity and friendship in the face of isolation and loneliness. a legacy of peace and understanding in the face of

hatred. there can be no greater legacy than that. for many years now, we have stood together to mark this dark day. as we do so, we mark your strengths and your steadfastness. we mark the love between parent and child, husband and wife, sister and brother, friends and family alike, and we mark the friendship of like nations united in a common cause. time cannot heal all wounds, and yet time breathes and shifts with the seasons, much like the storms of winter herald spring and the warmth of the sun. time does swallow pain and burnishes the sweetest of memories. time ensures that nothing remains firmly in place, nothing but the promise of better days

to come, the promise of hope, and the promise of light. today, may the thought of your one bring your loved a smile to your lips. may you feel the warmth of those who have lester lives, even or too brief a time and may we continue to do everything in our power to ensure a world that is safe and secure for all. >> our organization is based on four objectives.

truth, right emotional support, improving safety, and combating terrorism. there is an award that we set aside for some special recipients. it is called keeping the spirit alive and it was developed to recognize that a person or persons who over a long time have succeeded in keeping the government and public aware of the important lessons learned from this terrorist action. we honor those working with the victims of pan am flight 103, organization to achieve these goals all the while remembering those lost in the lockerbie bombing by keeping their spirits alive. i would like at this time to present this award to robert mueller. [applause]

>> good afternoon. another introduction much like mary kate of along time friend of the pan am families. the attorney general of the united states is to my mind the head of the most important government agency. lawyer,e nation's top much like frank mulholland. he does not have a title, he is not called the right reverend -- .he honorable whatever it is lord advocate. they do not call the eternal -- the eternal -- the attorney general secretary. the department which has

thousands of lawyers, many of whom are here today and fbi buters who are here today it is an agency that as i said, is the most important. if you ask someone what the word justice means, i asked 10 people out there, you would get five different answers. another would google it and see what wikipedia says justice means. we know what it means. we have an innate feeling of what it is. it's the main reason our group was formed. we're not there yet. we are very close, and their close because of people like eric holder, who has worked on this case from the very beginning, and kept us apprised of what was going on to the extent he could. he's been here several times. last year the weather was terrible and he had to leave because he said his boss had called a meeting. if you are in cabinet, you know who the boss is.

he said, i will be here next year. and he is. we are very honored to have the chief lawyer of the united states, and a longtime friend of the families. eric holder. [applause] >> good afternoon. thank you for those kind words, and for your many years of service and leadership alongside your fellow members of the families of the victims of pan am flight 103 i would also like to recognize the dedicated public servants here today, including my dear friend bob mueller, who has been involved in this case since he led the justice department's criminal justice division. that was more than two decades ago. a tenacious former justice department prosecutors from the

u.s. attorney's office in washington, d.c. worked tirelessly on this case for over 20 years. a u.s. attorney from the northern district of new york, whose sister was aboard flight 103 on that fateful night. he became an original member of the victims group which calls for a presidential commission on airport security. i know his mother and sister and their families are among the many family members in the crowd today. i had a chance to meet with them yesterday in the justice department. although a quarter century passed since the world was shaken, and so many lives were devastated by a heinous and cowardly act of terror, no amount of distance or time can ease the pain or erase a loss that was inflicted on that day. even now it is difficult to

comprehend the magnitude of a senseless crime that claimed the lives of 259 innocent men, women, and children in the skies above scotland, all with lives of 11 residents of the peaceful town of lockerbie. some were traveling to the u.s. for the very first time. some were enjoying quiet evenings with their families. some were on their way to visit with friends and relatives. some were simply trying to come home. and although their respective journeys and individual lives were cut tragically short, all will continue to be dearly loved and deeply missed by everyone who knew them, and especially by those who come together on this patch of what is truly hallowed ground each year to pay tribute to the lives that were stolen, and heal those who were

irreparably changed. we will always member the heartache and the pain that was etched into our collective memory on the 21st of december, 1988. we also recall as we gather each year the tremendous generosity of the scottish people, in particular the people of lockerbie, who despite their own losses, open their homes to the families and victims who streamed into that small town from around the world in the days after the bombing. in the midst of their anguish, these generous men and women gave what comfort they could offer. they shared what solace they could provide. we recall the determination that the families and victim advocates to join together to seek answers and understanding. some of these individuals, including many of the current and former fbi agents, justice department, prosecutors and other officials who are with us today help selflessly defined the quest for justice in the aftermath of this crime as their life's work.

more than anything, as we assemble in this place of remembrance year after year, we recall the moments of unity and of love that have arisen from the grief that we share. we remember the occasions that have brought this community together. not only in morning, but in search of healing and hope. and in celebration of the extraordinary lives. they bind us together. we keep calling for change and fighting for justice on behalf of those no longer with us. we rededicate ourselves and our nation to the quality that defined the men and women that we lost. we continue to be drawn together every year on this date, faces old and faces new, friends long departed, and members of fresh generations, including some who

bear the names of absent loved ones to lend our voices to this solemn memorial homage. to hear stories and to exchange joyous memories. and to be part of a community that, a quarter-century after that terrible day, is still striving to build from an unspeakable evil and lasting legacy of compassion, fellowship, and love. today, this legacy is all around us, and it is very much alive. it lives in the resolve that brings us together and pushes us forward each day. it persists in our unfinished but ongoing work to see that justice is done and to ensure that those who commit acts of terror are held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. it endures in our determination to secure a brighter future for ourselves and our fellow citizens, a future that is free from hatred and senseless destruction that has touched your lives and far too many

others great may our continuing efforts serve as a monument to those who were taken from us 25 years ago. may we never tire in our work to forge a society and a world worthy of the empathy and grace that unites this remarkable group. and may god bless the memories of those we have lost. the cause of justice that we are humbled to serve. and the great nation we will forever hold the victims of pan am flight 103 in our hearts. each of the loving families as well that we hold near and dear in our hearts. thank you all. [applause] >> the next thing on our program is playing "taps."

and the wreath laying. i would ask that everybody stand for that. we will have the wreath laying first, and then "taps." the wreath laying is by several family members.

♪

♪ >> you may be seated. the next part in the program is we have a couple of awards to give out. it says me, but i'm not going to hand them out, and i would ask for glen johnson and brian flynn, if they would please come forward and help me with this next part of the program.

>> there have been very many people who have been able to devote their talents to helping this organization, people we do not always acknowledge. i would like to take this time to take a couple and let them know how much we really appreciate what they have done. they have worked with her organization for a long time. they have done so much for us, in ways in which they do not receive recognition. when they took our little newsletter and in three years created it into the news we are able to publish not only for our families, but also for others in

the government and people who want to help us in our efforts, it is a worthy publication of which everyone is aware of. also, every time we have been able to put on a major event, they have been working very diligently to prepare and let everyone see what we are about. if we take a look today at the program, you will see the quality. there is a lot of love and work that has gone into this, and steve and wendy, would you come forward, i would like to show appreciation from the organization. [applause] >> the first thing i would like

to do is thank the victims of pan am flight 103. it is amazing when extraordinary people come together and accomplish extraordinary things. mary kay and frank and a group of families that have come together through the years have inspired us. i want to thank them. i am quite honored to sit here and pay tribute to my mother. that is quite stressful. you might imagine. i better not screw that up. kathleen has been a tireless crusader from the moment she

learned her son was murdered on pan am flight 103. when she first learned about what was called an accident, she knew seconds later it was a bombing. mothers have an instinct about this thing. also, suspicious mothers have especially strong instinct about such things. i remembered more than two weeks after the bombing we went over to lockerbie, and i saw my mother crossed the room and start lecturing margaret thatcher about how justice had to be done. i thought, what is she doing? but that was just her getting started. her good friend in the reagan administration -- i remember kathleen on the phone with her. we were not getting much sleep back then.

i was half asleep on the couch. i remember her yelling at her friend, saying, i will not have my son die in vain. justice has to be done. i knew then that even though my brother was dead that our lives were going to change. when ann was asked to lead the commission to investigate what happened and how i could have been prevented, she knew she had no choice, or kathleen would have killed her as well. the family moved to washington very early that year, by coincidence or serendipity. kathleen helped work with frank and and on the commission as a pseudo-staff member. she walked the halls of congress. she quickly became a force. she made many trips back to new york to join protests at the u.n. people in the situations often use their gifts for different things. kathleen had many gifts, and one of which was imposed on her by the nuns at marymount, the gift of the pen. kathleen wrote op-ed's for "the

new york times," "the daily record," and dozens of others. she made hundreds of tv and radio appearances, including a memorable one where she accomplished the impossible. she shamed alan dershowitz on "the today show," not an easy feat. alan was considering supporting fema and quickly changed his mind after facing kathleen. she also served as a commissioner on the presidential commission on aviation security, representing the families of victims of pan am 103. during the trial, she told her husband, we're not leaving until there is a verdict. which she did. on the day of the verdict, kathleen was scheduled for breast cancer surgery. after watching closed-circuit television, she hopped in a cab to get to her appointment. the verdict was too important, and her surgery would have to wait. i remember the doctor saying, why can't you get here on time?

she made her son and daughter- in-law to bear witness. we were given very specific instructions on what our messaging points were, which appeared in an op-ed in "the wall street journal." she has used her gifts and her passion to honor her justice, protect others from the act of terrorism, and to honor her country. with all this, she still managed to be a great mom. thanks. [applause]

>> this is mary lou's niece, and she will perform a beyoncé song probably as good or better than beyoncé. [laughter] ♪ ♪ >> ♪ what i left behind i won't regret they won't forget ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ i loved ♪ it was more than i wanted and more than i thought it would be ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ i want to say i'll live each day until i die i know that i was something in somebody's eyes the hearts i have touched will be the proof that i lived that i made a difference and this world will see i was here i lived i loved i was here

i did i've done everything that i wanted and it was more than i thought it would be i will leave my mark so everyone will know i was here i lived i loved i was here i did i've done everything that i wanted and it was more than i thought it would be i will leave my mark so everyone will know i was here i just want them to know i gave my all did my best brought the world some happiness left this world a little better just because i was here i was here

i lived i was here i was here i was here ♪ ♪ ♪ what will you do? ♪ i was here [applause] >> thank you. that was beautiful. it really, really was. in addition to thanking diane, i want to make sure i thank the choir. they first started singing for us because i think mary kay used

to go to that church many years ago, when she lived in virginia. she got the connection started. they have been coming back ever since. they have been wonderful. we have a new piper this -- yes. yes, thank you. [applause] we have a new piper this year, ray bilter. our piper we had the last few years has injured his hand. i do not know if he will be able to continue. but i thought ray did a magnificent job. if he can continue with us, great. and we will have two more scottish piper is a little bit later. if they want to come back, i will be glad for them to. you will hear them later. anyway, i do want to make note of the people that have helped

us a lot in this service. the arlington people that have been over backwards. we have already mentioned steve and wendy. we could not do this ourselves, melanie and me. our next -- it says in the program that the next speaker will be fbi director james komi. there are things that changed in this program. he is out of town. he sends his regrets. that was an unavoidable thing that happened after the program had been printed. anyway, he is not here. but i get to introduce our next speaker, who is the head of the tsa.

and he is a wonderful man that has been coming for the last -- i don't know. three or four years, maybe. he has been the tsa administrator since july 2010, and he is in charge of 450 airports across the united states, and the air marshal program, and security for highways and railroads. all kinds of transit systems and stuff. before that, he was an fbi agent. we have got plenty of fbi guys here, former and present. and i -- i wish -- i talked to him earlier, because this year was kind of a rough year for him. this is the first time in the tsa history that they have lost an agent in the line of duty. hernandez, right?

we offer our condolences. but i would like to welcome tsa director john pistole right now. [applause] >> thank you. it is good to be here once again as we gather together to remember those souls that were lost that fateful day 25 years ago now. it is good to see so many people again, whether you have come from scotland or from syracuse or anywhere else. welcome. these grounds at arlington national cemetery know no borders.

it belongs to you. i appreciate the opportunity to speak once again as we commemorate that event and the lives that were lost. as we have noted in ceremonies past, there is nothing we can say to undo the horror or lasting damage caused by the monstrous and cowardly act of terror carried out over lockerbie. yet we see the ability of the human spirit to heal and grow at in the loving eyes and faces of our children and grandchildren. there is some comfort. the healing that began following that unspeakable act will continue as young ones grow older and are taught to carry forward the memories of those we honor here today. even though the pain of your loss may be somewhat tempered by the 25 years that have gone by, all of us remain fully committed in our search for the truth and

our desire to hold everybody accountable for their crimes. your advocacy and support in support of earning justice for your loved ones honors them. those of you who travel every day, whether it is for business, to visit family, or simply to explore the wonders of our world, you deserve to do so safely and securely. this is a small and steady victory over the hatred carried out by terrorists throughout the world. since being called into service following the atrocities of 9/11, the men and women of the transportation security administration have devoted themselves to protecting our freedom to travel. we are eager to safeguard the free flow of goods. we help you world do business free from the district of desires of criminals and terrorists alike. the vigilance of the global law enforcement community teaches us lessons that help to strengthen our international aviation security efforts and make it

less likely that our adversaries can succeed, focusing our resources in such a way as to mitigate this and enables us to stay ahead of those determined to strike fear into the lives of good and decent people. a few weeks ago, we saw the world come together to mourn the loss and celebrate the life of the remarkable nelson mandela. in his struggle, we were reminded that the gears of justice may at times move quite slowly. but it was also affirmed that in the end good wins over evil. it is the same spirit that our search for justice must remain unstoppable. we owe to each of you and the families who have built, and in many cases rebuilt -- no one can return what was taken from you that night.

but we can and will continue to work and fight for each of you. thank you. may god bless you and keep you. may his face shine upon you and give you peace. [applause] >> he is a tall man. thank you so much, mr. pistole, for your remarks. at this time, i am very pleased and honored to introduce our next guest. the right honorable david mundell, member of parliament, and the parliamentary undersecretary of state for scotland. he is a member of the parliament representing the scottish constituency of dumfries and galloway and clydesdale at westminster. he grew up in lockerbie. he went to lockerbie academy and was head boy, which is the equivalent of president of his class. he studied law at the university

of edinburgh and gained a diploma in legal practice there. he received an mba from the university business school. he worked as a solicitor and then joined in 1991 bt, a british telecommunications services company, one of the largest in the world, as group legal advisor for scotland. he became their head of national affairs, remaining with et until becoming a member of scottish parliament. he was elected to the scottish parliament in 1999. in 2003 as a list member of the scottish parliament for the southland. being the sole conservative representative of his constituency. he quickly gained public attention, relative to newly- elected mp's.

he was appointed to shadow cabinet as shadow secretary of state for scotland in december 2005, a post in which he served until 2010, the 2010 general election in the u.k. at which time he assumed the role of parliamentary under secretary of state for scotland. he has been a strong supporter of the syracuse-lockerbie scholarships, which support lockerbie academy students to study at syracuse university each year. the connections made by these young people are a good indication of the strong bond between our countries that he has nurtured through his career. he has come to syracuse university several times, most recently this past art prober, during remembrance week, for the observances. he took the time to attend the annual meeting for our membership, and took part in the

panel of scottish representatives as they made their remarks and answered our questions. we are very grateful to him that he was able to join us at that time, and for his interest in our story and in our case. please join me in welcoming the right honorable david mundell. [applause] >> thank you very much. as someone who grew up in lockerbie and has the privilege ever presenting my hometown in parliament, it is an honor for me to be here today to represent both my community and my country. to demonstrate our solidarity with you on a day of remembrance, a day of reflection and a day for looking forward. i want you to know that you are in the thoughts and prayers of people in and around lockerbie and across the united kingdom, as church services are going on simultaneously with this event

in drysdale parish church, in lockerbie, and in westminster abbey. although compared to this afternoon in arlington, it is cold and very in scotland today, the warmth of our feelings toward everyone here in the united states affected by the events of the 21st of december 1988 remains as strong as it was on those first days and weeks, when many present visited lockerbie for the first time. the lockerbie air disaster remains the largest ever loss of life in a single event in the united kingdom.

like everybody from the lockerbie area, i remember exactly where i was when i heard the news, and the emotions i felt as the event unfolded. that is, however, nothing to what you and families back in the u.k. and other parts of the world have had to bear. to lose a loved one in unexpected locality, especially a young person, is heartbreaking. but to do so under an unprecedented global media spotlight, which has lasted all of these 25 years, is beyond compare. and for that, you, along with the townspeople of lockerbie and everyone else caught in these events, have our utmost admiration and respect. many people in and around lockerbie never have and never will speak openly about these events, although they have in as deeply affected by them and the loss of anonymity for our small town. on behalf of them and everyone else in and around lockerbie, i offer you our continuing

sympathy for your loss, our gratitude for the friendships forged and the bonds strengthened, and our determination to continue to support you in the years ahead. thank you. [applause] i would also like to take this opportunity to read a message from our british prime minister, david cameron. mr. cameron says, the loss of pan am flight 103 over lockerbie that 7:03 p.m., december 21, 1988, was a shocking event, a loss made more poignant still by being so close to christmas.

lockerbie remains one of the worst aviation disasters in history, and the deadliest act of terrorism ever committed in the united kingdom. although 25 years have passed, memories of the 243 passengers, 16 crew, and 11 lockerbie residents who lost their lives on that terrible night have not dimmed. over the last quarter of a century, much attention has been focused on the perpetrators of the atrocity. today, our thoughts turn to its victims and to those whose lives have been touched and changed by what happened at lockerbie that night. two families, friends, neighbors, loved ones, and all those caught up in the painful process of recovery, let us say to them our admiration for you is unconditional. for the fortitude and resilience you have shown. for the determination never to give up. you have shown that terrorist

acts cannot crush the human spirit. and that is why terrorism will never prevail. and even in the darkest moments of grief, it is possible to glimpse the flickering flame of hope. the tragedy of pan am 103 continues to forge a strong bond between lockerbie academy and syracuse university. syracuse lost 35 of its own that fateful evening. nothing can restore the promise of those young lives cut short. yet their memory is honored by the scholarships syracuse awards each year to two lockerbie students and 35 of its own undergraduates. they represent a growing band of beneficiaries given the chance to fulfill their own youthful promise. this is a lasting and optimistic legacy bequeathed to future generations on behalf of those who lost their lives on this day 25 years ago, and who we remember here today.

thank you. [applause] >> next, the year-end review examines the senate nuclear option. the change in the chamber's filibuster rules this year followed by discussion with female war veterans of iraq and afghanistan on the challenges they face at home. of theformer members george h.w. bush and clinton administrations on the north american free-trade agreement. coming up on the next washington journal. an examination of what is working and what is not with the affordable care act.

joannest is john and -- kennen. and then we will be joined by .ark tushnet "washington journal" is live every day at 7 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> join us tomorrow for another encore president -- presentation of first ladies. watch that at 9 p.m. eastern wednesday here on c-span. now have secular norms instead of theological norms that govern our acceptance or rejection of the ways in which a goddess can speak to people. like the branch davidians.

david kirsch could say he has special insight into the bible help other members of the community understand the bible, especially the book of revelations better and allow them to say that they are living in the end times in a way that most americans do not accept. tot by itself does not seem be a problem but when it leads triggerselements, that law-enforcement concern as well as the popular press's concern. and the idea that someone listening to god and having his followers do things that could be aberrant, that is dangerous. that needs to be policed and controlled. arguing that religious persecution in america has been prevalent since the mid-1800s, even committed by the very government that is supposed to protect us from persecution.

"after words."n span2. in filibuster rules was put to a vote. the so-called nuclear action was threatened in july and put to a vote in november. the results now all presidential nominations except for supreme court nominees no longer require 60 votes to end debate. just a simple majority. will showext hour, we you some of the senate debate over the past year, the comments are majority leader harry reid, republican leader mitch mcconnell, and even some video pulled by our seat span -- she spent viewers -- c-span viewers. e have come to this point. we've witnessed the majority leader break his word to the united states senate and now our

request for a joint meeting of all the senators has been set for monday night, a time when attendance around here is frequently quite spotty is, in an obvious effort to keep as many as of his members from hearing the concerns and arguments of the other side as possible. it remains our view that for this to be the kind of joint session of the senate that it ought to be, given the tendency of the senate to have sparse attendance on monday night, to have this meeting onweédpy@ the. the attendance was nearly perfect. so, mr. president, i don't want him to feel sorry for the senate, certainly not for me, and i am going to continue to try to speak in a tone that is appropriate. his name calling, he -- i guess he follows, i hope not, the demagogue theory that the more

you say something that is false, people start believing it. mr. president, it's quite interesting that he thinks that -- that richard cordray, who no one, no one says there is a thing wrong with this man, former attorney general of the state, heavily populated state of ohio. democrats vnd republicans have said he's a good guy. this man has been waiting 724 days. assistant secretary of defense, 292 days. monetary fund governor, 169 days. e.p.a. 128 days. nlrb, two of them, 573 days. we have 15 of them. x we are with alex rogers and we just showed some of the senate

leaders, harry reid and mitch mcconnell after july, after the first bubble of the nuclear option discussion. what happened in july, what was the cause of the concern there that brought it to everyone's attention? on thee are few nominees national labor relations board. the republicans did not want to put on. the leaders got together and had a historic at the time meeting in the old chamber. it seemed like everything had gone back together. they were going to get some nominees they wanted and the majority of the roles for the filibuster were going to stay the same. --ority rights for prevailed. fast forward to november and things have gotten different. you have the government shutdown and you have four key nominations and a three-week filibuster. you have the agency that oversees fannie mae and freddie mac.

meeting,ms of the july and the senate chamber meeting, the old senate timber was behind closed door so no one knew exactly but the word that came there was a that lot of positive feedback. the issue dies down a bit. i believe you wrote at the time about some discussions going on between harry reid and john mccain that were trying to work something out on the side. -- it was arry reid phrase they should be worried about that deals with iran right now. before he decided to press the button had a conversation with senator john mccain who had reprised the role he had done in 2005. a similard about deal. you will have your nominees for the d c circuit court of appeals if we keep the filibuster rules

and ways. senator reid said no. clarity's sake. in terms of the filibuster rules this applies to those procedural votes that lead up to a final vote on the nomination. >> it is the vote before the vote. the changes that have been made with the simple majority which nomineesdeal is the for all executive branch nominees and also for judicial branch nominees with the exception of the supreme court. it is a big change and also a precedent for the future, allowing legislation to pass with only 51 votes. >> all this came to a head in november. what we will do next year is show some of our viewers some of the debate that happened ahead optionso-called nuclear vote of november 21. is broken. the american people believe the

senate is broken. and i believe the american people are right. during this congress, the 113th congress, the united states has wasted an unprecedented amount of time on procedural hurdles and partisan obstruction. as a result, the work of this country goes undone. congress should be passing legislation that strengthens our economy, protects american families. instead we're burning wasted hours and wasted days between filibusters. i could say instead we're burning wasted days and wasted weeks between filibusters. even one of the senate's most basic duties -- confirmation of presidential nominees -- has become completely unworkable. mr. president, there has been unbelievable, unprecedented obstruction for the first time in the history of our republic,

republicans have routinely used the filibuster to prevent president obama from appointing his executive team or confirming judges. it's truly a troubling trend that republicans are willing to block executive branch nominations even when they have no objection to the qualification of the nominee. instead they block qualified executive branch nominees to circumvent the legislative process. they block qualified executive branch nominations to force wholesale changes to laws. they block qualified executive branch nominees to restructure entire executive branch departments. and they block qualified judicial nominees because they don't want president obama to appoint any judges to certain courts. they need -- the need for change is so, so very obvious. it's clearly visible. it's manifest we have to do something to change things. in the history of our country,

some 230-plus years, there have been 168 filibusters of executive and judicial nominations. half of them have occurred during the obama administration. mr. president, 230-plus years, 50%. four and a half years, 50%. is there anything fair about that? these nominees deserve at least an up-or-down vote, yes or no. but republican filibusters deny them a fair vote, any vote, and deny the president his team. the gridlock has consequences and they're terrible. it's not only bad for president obama, bad for this body -- the united states senate -- it's bad for our country. it's bad for our national security and bad for economic security. that's why it's time to get the senate working again not for the

good of the current democratic majority or some future republican majority, but for the good of the united states of america. it's time to change. it's time to change the senate before this institution becomes obsolete. mr. president, at the beginning of this congress the republican leader pledged that -- and i quote -- "this congress should be more bipartisan than last congress." mr. president, we're told in scripture, let's take for example old testament. the book of numbers. promises, pledges, a vow, one must not tkpwraeubg his word. -- break his word. in january the republicans promised to work with the majority to process nominations in a timely manner by unanimous consent except in extraordinary circumstances. mr. president, exactly three

weeks later republicans mounted a first in history filibuster of a highly qualified the senator from fee for secretary of defense. despite being a former republican senator, a decorated war hero, having saved his brother's life in vietnam, defense secretary chuck hagel's nomination was pending in the senate for a record 34 days, more than three times the previous average of a secretary of defense. remember, mr. president, our country was at war. republicans have blocked executive nominees like secretary hagel not because they object to the qualifications, but simply because they seek to undermine the very government in which they were elected to serve. take the nomination of richard cordray to lead the consumer financial protection bureau. there was no doubt about his ability to do the job. but the consumer financial protection bureau, the

brainchild of elizabeth warren, went for more than two years without a leader because republicans refused to accept the law of the land, because they wanted to roll back a law that protects consumers from the greed of wall street. so i say to my republican colleagues, you don't have to like the laws of the land, but you do have to respect those laws and acknowledge them and abide by them. similar obstruction continued unabated for seven more months until democrats threatened to change senate rules to allow up-or-down votes on executive nominations. in july after obstructing dozens of executive nominees for months and some for years, republicans once again promised they would end the unprecedented obstruction. one look at the senate's executive calendar shows that nothing has changed since july. republicans have continued their record of obstruction if no

agreement had ever been reached. republicans continued their record of obstruction as if no agreement had been reached. there are currently 75 executive branch nominations ready to be confirmed by the senate, have been waiting an average of 140 days for confirmation. one executive nominee to the agency that safeguards the water that my children and my grandchildren drink, and the air they breathe, has waited almost 900 days for confirmation. we agreed in july that the senate should be confirming nominees to ensure the proper functioning of government. consistent and unprecedented obstruction by the republican caucus has turned advisedispens. the president pro tempore: without objection, so ordered. mr. mcconnell: over the past several weeks, the american

people have been witness to one of the most breathtaking, breathtaking indictments of big government liberalism and memory, and i'm not just talking about a web site. i'm talking about the way in which obamacare was forced on the public by an administration and a democratic-led congress that we now know is willing to do and say anything, anything to pass the law. the president and his democratic allies were so determined to force their vision of health care on the public that they assured them up and down that they wouldn't lose the plans they had, that they saved money instead of losing it, and that they would be able to use the doctors and hospitals they were already using. but of course we know that that rhetoric just doesn't match reality. and the stories we are hearing on a near daily basis are now ranging from heart breaking to comic. just yesterday, i saw a story about a guy getting a letter in

the mail saying his dog, his dog had qualified for insurance under obamacare. so yeah, i would probably be running for the exit, too, if i had supported this law. i would be looking to change the subject, change the subject just as senate democrats have been doing with their threats of going nuclear and changing the senate rules on nominations. if i were a senator from oregon, for example, which hasn't enrolled a single person, a single person for the obamacare exchange, i'd probably want to talk about something else, too. but here's the problem with this latest distraction. it doesn't distract people from obamacare. it reminds them of obamacare. it reminds them of all the broken promises.

it reminds them of the power grab. it reminds them of the way democrats set up one set of rules for themselves and another for everybody else. one set of rules for them and another for everybody else. actually, this is all basically the same debate. and rather than distract people from obamacare, it only reinforces the narrative of a party that is willing to do and say just about anything to get its way. willing to do or say just about anything to get its way. because that's just what they're doing all over again. once again, senate democrats are threatening to break the rules of the senate, break the rules of the senate in order to change the rules of the senate. and over what? over what?

over a court that doesn't even have enough work to do? millions of americans are hurting because of a law washington democrats forced upon them, and what do they do about it? they cook up some fake fight over judges. a fake fight over judges that aren't even needed. look, i get it. as i indicated, i want to be talking about something else, too, if i had to defend dogs getting insurance while millions of americans lost theirs. but it won't work. and the parallels between this latest skirmish and the original obamacare push are just too obvious to ignore. think about it. just think about it. the majority leader promised, he promised over