it is december, 29, 2013. we have a three-hour "washington journal" for you today. will be comparing the first year of president obama's second term with those of his predecessors. first, we're talking about the american dream and asking argue is whether you think it is still attainable today. when you call in during these first 45 minutes, we also want to know how you define that term , the american dream. give us a call, our phone lines are open.

you can also catch up with us on all your favorite social media pages. he very good sunday morning to you. i want to start with a few headlines from papers from around the country on this idea of the american dream. some recent columns in "the wall street journal" and a few others on the subject. robert reich the former labor secretary of the united states, his column from december 26.

we will be talking about this issue of the american dream for the first 45 minutes. that subject has also been in discussion already in 500 or so posts on our facebook pages morning. i will read you just a few of those.

i want to read you little bit from that piece.

that is a bloomberg poll. we also have a poll on our facebook page. is the american dream still attainable? right now the results seem to be tracking the same as that bloomberg poll heard about 240 seven people saying yes it is still attainable and 404 people saying no, it is not. be talking about this subject, taking your calls and comments. our phone lines are open for you this morning. we will start on our phones with william from kentucky on our line for democrats. william, good morning. yes, good morning. think, is american dream still attainable today? actually, not.

it is in pretty bad shape the way the economy is right now, the american dream has gone from good to bad over the years. william, turn your television down and go ahead with your comments. when do think it started taking this turn for the worse? you said over the years? caller: i have seen a decline from in the 90s when bill clinton was in office up until now. it has declined. the economy has, in a bad situation for the american dream. it has been so bad that these other states that have these

people that need food stamps every time they get a raise or anything like that on the social , the food stamps drops are medically. andprices keep going up it's going to get worse. kentucky thisfrom morning on our independent line. sharon calling in from saint heaters, missouri. sharon, good morning to you. we're talking about the american dream. i have worked for 50 years and everything keeps going up. salaries haven't changed that much. that workment people have so many days off and

they argue all the time. .othing gets done the republicans and democrats theyare in washington dc are reading statements. oftentimes times they really don't know what they're talking about. their assistants are doing all the work. the biggestt threat? you mentioned and income situation, but you are talking about the political situation and whether washington can function. which one do think is the biggest threat to the american dream right now? caller: them are doing all the

time. killed ateople were 911. that ruined our economy right there. you have to start there to. from all right, sharon missouri this morning. we mentioned income inequality, both in that bloomberg piece and in some of the calls this morning earlier. president obama talked about the american dream and how it is being threatened by this economic situation. here is a bit of what he had to say. >> let me repeat. the combined threats of in greased inequality and decreasing mobility pose a fundamental threat to the american dream come our way of life and what we stand for around the globe. is not simply a moral claim

that i am making here. there are practical consequences to rising inequality and reduced mobility. for one thing, these trends are bad for our economy. that growth is more fragile and recessions are more frequent in countries with greater inequality. and that makes sense. when families have less to spend, that means businesses have fewer customers. households rack upgrade a mortgage and credit card debt. meanwhile, concentrated wealth at the top is less likely to result in the kind of broadly based consumer spending that drives our economy. together with lax regulation it may contribute to risky, speculative bubbles. and decliningity mobility are also bad for families and social cohesion. just because we tend to trust our institutions less, but studies show that we tend to

trust each other less when there is greater inequality. associatedquality is with less mobility between generations heard that means it is not just temporary, the effects last. it creates a vicious cycle. that was president obama talking about the american dream being threatened by income inequality. that was in a speech earlier this month in washington dc we're asking you about whether the american dream is still attainable. bob writes in that it is not.

and in and what do you think about this subject? phonelines are open to you in this first 45 minutes of the "washington journal".

we have dave calling in from michigan this morning. caller: the president's idea and solving it ish wealth redistribution approaching the problem in the wrong direction. inequality will be reduced if all of society makes a sincere effort to succeed in the economic system that the country is run by. -- many of our children for instance are being robbed in this country of the chance to compete in our society by these teachers unions that do not educate them while they are in their formative years. attention to how our children are being robbed of their chance to compete

especially in the inner cities. i lived in the inner-city myself . i am a jewish man and i was raising my little girl in a -- myorhood where i was little girl wanted an allowance and i told her no, she had to get a news route. to make a long story short, there was a little black kid that joined in with her in this news route and was having a very difficult time in his studies in school. he wasn't doing very well at all. but he participated with that news route and calculating profits and losses and paying attention to the books and who is paying and who is not paying. that little boy ended up getting a's in his school. dave from michigan this morning. we are asking viewers whether they think the american dream is still attainable.

dennis writes in that the american dream is attainable if we could get rid of resident was deficits. bush put this country in a whole. benda on ours facebook page this morning. back to the phones. shreveport illinois peterborough going to cl on our line. democrats line. caller: good morning, sir. tendency to the think about how jesus christ would do it. if there was a little child seeing someone playing the violin and then he decided that he wanted to play the violin, then i believe jesus would tell him you can do it. every time you put positive into anything, it has a better tendency to work. obamacare you hear some people

it can work. there try to make it work. they have other people saying it won't work. ,ell, if everybody got together this child's relatives that wanted to play violin, i believe all they should tell him -- all of them should should tell him that he can do it. host: we're taking your calls for the next half hour or so on this subject. we will be revisiting it at the end of our show today as well if you don't get your calls in during this first segment of the "washington journal." a little bit of what he had to say about the american dream in his piece from december 26 in his column.

if you want to read more of his column, there it is in the "anchorage daily news." richard is up next on our line lake placid, florida on the independent line. caller: good morning. the american dream is basically gone until the people get the

country back and they can't get their country back until they get their government back which has become a globalist international entity. had senator coburn on the other day and he said 70% of what we hear coming out of washington dc is lies. vote these people out and get as many out as possible and hopefully we can correct our and restore the american dream. if we wanted with this government we are under a police state. far back as this threat that you described to the american dream gone? caller: for a while. i would say at least 30 years.

i'm 70 years old. parties and both administrations. it is no longer for the people. therefore themselves and for the internationalists and the globalist. we are under a police state right now. had theter 9/11 when we nationalct and the defense authorization day went and destroy the constitution. people will have very little power. we don't even know if our elections are rigged, our congressman no longer represent the republic. will be you think you able to vote these people out of office? you don't seem to be too confident in the electoral system as a whole. caller: it is going to be very difficult to vote them out

because they will rig the election if it comes right down gritty, if they think they're going to lose. they want to maintain power they continue to do everything they can to maintain power, to corrupt the system. the system so corrupt right now, we see right now is all these organizations. they have named the american people as the enemy. veterans,ics, the constitutionalists, anybody they feel a threat from is now the enemy of the u.s. government. richard from lake placid, florida this morning. we will be taking your calls. i want to point out a few pieces of international news and breaking news this morning from russia.

at least 18 people are dead as a blast rips through a railway station in central russia. at least 18 people were killed in that last in the city of volgograd which is central russia, according to the regional government. a female suicide bomber is suspected to have carried out , says the national antiterrorism committee. we should note that volgograd is a city with about one million people. it is 690 kilometers northeast of sochi where the olympics will be held and close to russia's volatile region of the north caucasus. the associated press this morning has an image of that blast. we can show you from the associated press.

that is the railway station where the blast occurred. we will keep track of that story . reports so far this morning are that 18 people officially from russian news services dead so far. also, on the international front, the lead story in today's greatashington post." future scene for afghanistan is the headline. we will be talking about global hotspots in 2014 in our next segment of the "washington

journal." that is coming up in about 25 minutes or so. we have plenty of time to talk to you about whether you think the american dream is still attainable. joe is up next from hanover, pennsylvania on our line for republicans. joe, good morning. caller: yes, i think it is still attainable. i worked hard for 48 years. i knew that was one of the things i had to do if i was going to get the things i needed. it is an easy, but you have to do what you have to do. joe, is it a matter of not wanting the american dream as badly as some past generations have, is that what you're

saying? caller: not at all. some generations, even now, if fortunateo, if you're -- i worked many years in a manufacturing environment. i know a lot of people are not willing to do shift work to attain what they want. ittainly, you have to want and work hard and do it you have to do. host: what do you make of the president's comments from that speech we showed earlier in the show talking about the income inequality, the gap between the rich and the poor, even the rich and the middle-class class is getting larger and larger. caller: i think that is possibly true. seem that they are helping the american people.

it seems they're getting richer thethe people who are doing work are getting poorer. mike murphy writes in on twitter. income inequality is the same throughout the industrialized world hated hst are in the states. class wars over. the rich one. tyrone is up next from philadelphia, pennsylvania on our line for democrats. tyrone, thanks for joining us this morning on the "washington journal." caller: we can look at it for what it is. pulling in the bottom as long as we cannot achieve a good education for our people. the government and a lot of the republican party want to play with the educational system that has to be funded at a level that people can get the education. a not educated nation, we won't

know what that is about what that leads to. we have to find out how to help our people. how do we get them on sound ground? look at the banks. they automatically have a hand up because most paychecks are direct deposit. they get the money automatically. they count your money before you count it. if people are not educated, how do they move forward? we have an uneducated nation right now. we have kids come out of college i can't find jobs. that turns them away. we look at the job market and unemployment situation. what if you have a college degree e i put all three of my kids through college but here's the thing. what if you have a college degree and they get out there and cannot find a job? what kind of nation for upward mobility? what you do with them? we're going to talk about how we move this country forward? if we are not using our educated

workers then what do you do? host: you may want to stick around for our newsmakers show which is coming on after the "washington journal." during the discussion on education in the u.s. she talked about the needs in u.s. schools, given recent test scores. here is a little bit of what she had to say in that interview. >> it doesn't look weak to me at all. what all of this is saying is dominant strategy that we have used for a decade is not a strategy that is going to kick the door open to help all children succeed. it is just like the strategies that we used in the 70s and 80s. you see incremental gains. ae 60s you actually saw hugely bigger game than you saw in the 70s and 80s and 90s. why was that?

with the war on poverty, what we did was focus on equity, on giving kids that had the least creating a more level playing field. the you saw in terms of 70s, 80s and 90s and now, is that we didn't actually do -- first we did a bunch of different nice programs which help some kids but not all kids. then in the last 10 years with no child left behind what we have done is said that testing and sanctions is going to be the dominant strategy. outcompete usthat do not use that. what they do instead is that they actually focus on ensuring that kids get really good teachers and really good a real focushave on equity as well.

optimistici say i'm is because i think there is a growing recognition that you cannot test your way to tremendous gains in public education in the united states and you cannot sanction your way to amend this gains in education in the united states areas host: if you want to see that entire interview, stick around after the "washington journal" at 10 a.m.. it will also be shown at 6 p.m. on c-span. you can also hear it on c-span radio and of course available online at c-span.org. we have about 15 minutes left to talk about the american dream with you, but i also want to point out a few of the other headlines from the papers around the country. here is the front page of "the new york times." their lead story that is the conclusion of an

, and almostport five-page report in the new york times. if you want to read that, it is available both in the paper and online as well. we are talking about the

american dream this morning. bobby is up next from their hope , help, on our line for independence. bobby, good morning. caller: good morning. the american dream as the pilgrims saw it is very much dead. one cannot discuss american dream without discussing the ridges aspect of the founding of our nation. the pilgrims came here for religious reasons because they were persecuted. if we are talking about the financials out of it, horatio alger, f scott fitzgerald, that is very much alive. my personal dealings with immigrants, recent immigrants, chinese and colombian friends. they all laugh and say this is firsthand the blue or living, try to live this american dream in a first-generation way. a laugh and say oh yeah, we can still make our millions. the moral authority that major from a judeo-

christian standpoint is gone. it is bankrupt and that. host: when you think that ? caller: ppening ofn we began to take her out school to get away from the foundational principles that made the nation great. the 10 commandments, as cliche as it sounds, are still true. the country began to -- you just saw the recession of religious judeo-christian faith just received a way. since then, you name it, any aspect, out of wedlock pregnancy, numbers of abortion, stds, crime statistics, suicide, these things just exploded. host: bobby from fairhope, , talking about when this decline started. i want to talk a little bit of from that william golson piece from december 18 in the "the washington post. -- in the "wall street

journal." joseph from las vegas, nevada, what is your take on our independent line? caller: first thing, i would probably say it would be our politics in general it would need to do is put them at minimum wage because that stops the disconnect. that actually creates an

understanding that if you're making the same as everybody you are more geared towards fixing that problem. have members of congress on minimum wage act go ? ller caller: all them. if anger -- of every single american, if you took out $10 in one's on a weekly basis and burn that, that is $16 trillion in one month, which would actually decline the ratio of inflation, declined amount that is in circulation and increase the value of your currency as it sits now. i think that would probably be a starter.

be probablyd implement trade schools in our school systems. people who are failing waxy succeed once they get out there host: host: in your view is american dream making people more equal or is allowing people who work , to reach their dreams are attain great things ? caller: people who do not work hard and try to take things for people who do devalues what it means to succeed. nothing is free. everything costs something there you can't just say we can give -- france and scripting with health care. take a't sit there and mass of people and say you are forced to do something. you have to take it to the level where you put it towards something such as legalizing

marijuana and putting a $10 tax on it so they can only charge $10. that means on an annual basis billionooking at 301 $923 million. you can cover every person in america. you wouldn't really have to worry about the problem of people actually having to pay out of their checks. it is the truest form of capitalism. if you like marijuana don't pay for it, but the people who will benefit the entire country. joseph from las vegas, nevada this morning. he brings up the health care law some ofimplications, the latest news about the health care law coming out from the health -- from the associated press's morning. a story from honolulu notes that

the story this morning from the associated press. another associated press piece on the affordable care act noting obamacare will face an important date in 2014 as we near the end of 2013. it notes that the heart of the loss brings to life on wednesday of this week after nearly four years of lyrical turmoil and three months of enrollment chaos.

we have a few minutes left to talk to you about the american dream, whether you think it is still attainable. if you don't fit recalls and during this first segment of the "washington journal," we will revisit this subject in the last half-hour of our show today. dana is up next from los angeles, california on our line for democrats. think the american dream is becoming less and less attainable because the powerful money interests are stripping

away the great equalizers that we have in society, one being the quality affordable education, another being leave are anot the unions equalizing force because they help to raise the wages of have --nd also we don't unless you're actually born with a stepping stone that actually into their it becomes harder to reach. we actually put money into education -- into educating those people that need a quality education. college becomes more affordable. they will gain the skills and knowledge that will help us get reach american dream, but everyone is too busy stripping away the equalizers

in society. it becomes harder and harder until we realize we actually have to serve those who start with nothing. then it'll be harder for anyone to reach a goal. host: dana from california this morning. that conversation on twitter. twitter.ollow a us on follow thewho "washington journal" every day. we appreciate that. eddie is on a phone lines from hendersonville, tennessee on the republican line. it is very much alive if you're willing to work for. i started my own business back in 2010. it took 12-15 hour days doing

it, but i built it myself. no help from the government or anybody. i think if you're willing to work for it and you quit taking money from the government and after but and do what you need to do to have what you want and don't think you're going to redistribute the wealth from other people that have worked themselves to death to make what they have, you can do it. just like our forefathers did. thenot going to get into political things, it is about the american dream. it is not political. it is what you want and what you , iswilling to do to get it what it is. eddie, thanks for the call from tennessee this morning.

jack is from new york this morning on our line for republicans. jack you are on the "washington journal." caller: good morning and thank you for c-span. my name is jack strickland i'm a very patriotic american. i believe that the american dream is alive and well. i believe it is very attainable. it wasn't that long ago when i was having a discussion with my friend jesse about this. we both came to the same conclusion. this is america. for cap. janet is up next from columns ohio on our line for independence. good morning. caller: there is no such thing as the american dream. sleepy.ake you that is the mistake americans are making. they wake up and

realize what is happening to them it will be too late. first and foremost any to start out with impeaching obama. look at the damage she is the stowed upon this country. people don't realize that the people of each nation will be responsible for their leaders. this is the part i don't understand. people need to be aware of who is running the show here and it is not obama. we are slaves. to understand? they're doing it on a large level. jan from columbus, ohio. we have jerry from cleveland, ohio. i think it big problem in this country is taxed asperity. when reagan was president he tried to trickle down economics nerd he realized it wasn't working and made an announcement to the nation. he made an announcement to the nation that everybody has to pay their fair share turkey raise

the taxes on the wealthy and he created 20 million jobs. the wealthy are not investing in jobs at all, they're investing in the stock market that is why it is going sky high. ejected money from the government to invest in infrastructure. the wealthy aren't going to, where it is supposed come from? the republicans have blocked has proposed.ma the republicans won't allow the andthy to pay more taxes they want our money to go into the economy. they lie and say the stimulus didn't work. the stimulus created millions of jobs. it is to create in jobs. it save the economy from tanking. we were losing 800,000 jobs a month before the stimulus, 200,000 after. the gdp went from a negative to

jerrytive for it host: you may want to stick around for on the second part of today's "washington journal." we will also continue our discussion in the last half-hour of the washington journal this morning on the american dream and whether you think it is still attainable if you didn't get your calls and gives a call back around 9:30 this morning and we will continue that poll that is happening on our facebook page right now. it is still about a 2-1 margin. people saying american dream is not attainable. "washingtonhe journal." carlos munoz will be joining us. he is a defense reporter for " the hill" newspaper. he will talk about potential hotspots for 2014. later as i said residential historian richard norton smith

will talk about the challenges facing this president in his second term. first, an update from c-span radio on sundays chose this morning. >> on today's sunday television talk shows, the topics include discussion of the health care allow rollout, nsa leaker edward snowden, the situation with iran at a look back on people in the news in 2013. you can hear a rebroadcast of the programs on c-span radio beginning at noon eastern time with nbc's "meet the press." guests include oversight committee chairman congressman darrell issa and texas democratic congressman joaquin castro. at 1 p.m. eastern it is abc's "this week" with ted cruz and what the network is calling the game changers who made their mark in 2013. at 2 p.m. it is fox news sunday. guests include former vermont governor democrat howard dean, house intelligence committee chairman thompson mike rogers and california democratic representative adam schiff, also

a member of the house intelligence committee. cnn's state of the union follows at 3 p.m. with a year and look at the top political moments of 2013. finally at four, it is face a nation from cbs with bart kelman at the washington post and jess lynn ray deck of the government accountability project and also michael hayden, director of the national security agency. doctors aren't c-span radio. they're brought to as a public service by the networks and c- span. again come a rebroadcast of the shows begin at noon eastern with --'s "meet the press," 1:00, at three, cnn's state of union and finally at 4 p.m. eastern time, face the nation from cbs. listen to them all on c-span radio, heard on 90.1 fm, here in the washington dc area. across the country on xm satellite radio channel 120. you can download our free app for your smart phone or listen online at these and radio.org.

-- at c-span radio.org. >> a lot of new things. life into four or five slices. i think we should be interlinked these phases, have them all at the same time the world move so fast today we can't afford to have a single style of education anymore. we need to stay up-to-date. >> new year's day on c-span. just before 1 p.m. eastern and throughout the afternoon, ceos twitter and others on the future of higher education.

on c-span twos book tv, unflinching courage, former texas senator kay bailey hutchison on the women who shaped texas. three, american history tv, daughters of civil a the leaders and segregationist share memories of the civil rights era. c-span, we bring public affairs events from washington direct to you, putting you in the room at congressional hearings, white house event, briefings and conferences, and offering complete gavel to gavel coverage of the u.s. house, all as a public service of private industry. we are c-span, created by the cable tv industry 34 years ago and funded by your local cable or satellite provider. how you can watch us in hd. >> washington journal continues. we are joined by carlos munoz.

mr. munoz, before we start talking about specific countries, i want you to address a question that you pose in a recent piece that you wrote for "the hill" newspaper. the headline is, it the u.s. losing global influence? in that piece there were a few examples, particularly the iran, the deal that administration struck with that country regarding its nuclear program. in both situations, i think you saw the administration at least in the first example was syria, there was this big buildup becausepossible strikes of their use of chemical weapons then we had this 11th hour agreement between the u.s. and russia which pulled the u.s.- backed from the brink. it did seem that the administration had sort of lost

that clinical battle with capitol hill and terms of gaining momentum for potential military strikes. with the deal that was reached with the assad regime, you able to get out of that. it did put a little tarnished. who is the administration's leading critics? senator john mccain, senator lindsey graham, those folks have been pretty staunch critics of the administration's foreign-policy agenda and what they have been doing overseas. basically, john mccain said the actions being taken by the obama administration have let these global powers run roughshod towards their agendas. host: what is a response of the white house to this criticism? guest: the response has been that these moves are ends that

the means. these actions may have been looked at in a critical light from folks on capitol hill and elsewhere, but the ultimate result, which is one, reestablishing diplomatic ties with iran for the first time since 1979, according a another major military action in the middle east should i think these are solid wins in terms of foreign-policy and however criticism shakes out here in to d.c.. with carloe talking munoz. inen countries to watch 2014. the number one country that they cite is afghanistan. through the take us latest on the bilateral security agreement. what that is and where or if that might get signed. thet: the agreement is

groundwork for the eventual postwar plan that the u.s. may or may not introduce in afghanistan after 2014, which is basically when the white house has set the deadline to pull all active-duty combat troops out of the country. as far as ebsa is concerned, those are gauche nations are still ongoing. it was introduced to members of the afghan government as well as other senior leaders in the country earlier this year around november. kabul seem to be at loggerheads, particularly some demands that have been made by president karzai. there is some sort of agreement that he wants the bsa to move forward. up to now, the white house is still trying to work those details out. host: some stats from nato on the international security force , this as of the beginning of december on the number of troops in afghanistan. the united states about 60,000, the next closest country

contribute in is united kingdom with just under 8000. sort of true global's are we talking about that are being planned out in this bilateral security agreement? guest: as far as he agreement itself, with the pentagon and white house have said is there is no troop level being discussed in this agreement. there are have been reports that the united states is looking at between a 5000-10,000-man postwar force. those troops would be focused on counterterrorism operations and training the afghan forces to take the lead in those missions in the country. that is where the troop number stands, but the pentagon and white house have reiterated that no troop numbers can be solidified until the bsa is agreed to. host: how many other countries will we see contributing with united states if this agreement is signed? this agreement is just the to the united states and

afghanistan, but there are separate negotiations as well. guest: separate negotiations have started between afghanistan and nato. the 5000-10 thousand and force provided by the united states will be part of a larger nato postwar force which is being negotiated as you mentioned, on a separate track. again, these agreements have to go in tandem, not in tandem, but in order. in order for the nato agreement to be agreed to and finalized, the initial agreement with united states would be they have to be finalized first. host: if you want to talk to "the hill" of newspaper about the global hotspots we will be discussing in this segment of the "washington journal," our numbers are on the screen.

world.kip around the the center for preventative action, which is associated with the council of foreign relations, put out its annual forecast of conflicts that could pose a greater threat to the united states in 2014. one of the top-tier potential conflicts that is highlighted in that report could take place in north korea. thes the latest on situation in north korea and the stability of the regime there. earlier this year you had tension buildup as the new was takinghere control and solidified his power and the country. since then, things have taper down, but there is always that threat with the north korean regime, obviously with the potential nuclear capabilities and the unpredictability of the power structure there. ifre is always a tinderbox you will for potential conflict.

as tensions rise in the pacific toa as united states begins move its military focus away from middle east and towards the region, that is where you will see the potential for tension to increase. host: we have heard about that shift from the middle east to the pacific heard how much of that is actually happening in terms of troops thing over and more international focus? have you been able to shift as quickly as you like to the pacific? guest: i'm not sure it as quick as the pentagon other white house would like it to, but it is something that defense department leadership as well as the administration have been committed to. even though it is moving at a pace that may not be as quick as they would like, it is something they plan to follow through on, particularly as conflicts wind down in the middle east and elsewhere. host: looking at your comments and questions for arlo muñoz of "the hill.

for we talked about afghanistan. guest: i think that is obviously the number one concern. we see have a central government to move its sphere of influence outside the couple central area into the more contested areas such as southern afghanistan. that is always that threat there may be a return of these tribal cleavages reemerging. it is the intent of the united states and the afghan government dust tole to keep the keep a hold of those areas. host: kim is up next from orlando, florida on our line for republicans. you are on the line with carlo munoz. taking myank you for

call. as a reporter and journalist, i am sure you do your best to report the facts surrounding major events facing our country. i would like to ask whether you will report some facts surrounding the events of september 11, 2001. the consequences of which are impacting our country and the world, even today. pacific league, will you report the fact that building seven was brought down by controlled demolition? we're talking about global hotspots in 2014, but carlo munoz i will give you a chance to answer your question, if you would like. guest: as far as the issue in terms of controlled demolition or explosives, i can't comment on that, but in terms of the 9/11 attacks, we're talking about global hotspots. these hotspots respond in this post-9/11 area. we touched on afghanistan, we

have touched on other heirs of the world and i think there are some parallels in terms of them of the operations that united states has taken on. one of those areas post- 9/11 that became a major area of focus is iraq. if you can talk about iraq in 2014 and what the u.s. is watching their. guest: with iraq it seems to be a worsening situation ever since the pullout and the complete withdrawal of u.s. troops in late 2011. we have seen a resurgence of al qaeda in the country. also the expansion of that group. theng advantage or using civil war as a way to get info foothold in the country. we talked about some of the concerns with afghanistan and as a 2014 drawdown comes closer, i think a lot of folks who share ande concerns look to iraq

see that as a potential example of how things could go down. in 2014, is definitely a difficult situationit is somethn the radar of the white house and the pentagon. host: the center for preventative actions for -- potential conflicts and threats to the nine states of 2014. on twitter-- guest: i think it is sort of a joint discussion. you obviously have the and about -- pentagon involved in this, the u.s. intelligence community to the various threat assessments to see what the potential threats are in certain countries as far as regionally, threatsfar as the

reaching the united states. that is an ongoing assessment from what i understand the these things are very fluid, and situations do flare up from time to time, but i think that is why there is a lot of volatility in that process. host: if you want to talk to carlo munoz of "the hill" publication, phone lines are open. on twitter-- guest: i think he had the nail right on the head as far as the main problem facing the u.s. military planners and terms of

-- and diplomats in terms of what actions to take in syria. foreign fighters have become not so ingrained, but almost a part of the secular groups that are fighting to oust president bashar al-assad. aid,rms of providing u.s. or other types of support, that has been the most difficult question. funnel that to support and make sure that this notpment and materials do fall into the hands of the foreign fighters that are fighting with the rebel support. it will be the number one hot spot, if not number two for the raising -- that is facing the united states right now. host: what do think will make syria heat up again as far as

usable but that's as far as u.s. involvement? guest: as far as the russians and the use of chemical weapons, i see that as a possibility, but the biggest concern now is the foreign fighters and evil is there gaining in the country. and the influence they are gaining in the country. , for is a recent visit this was a heated topic of discussion. he had labeled afghanistan, dental --ria as problems, and we needed to figure out how to deal with these foreign groups very

the international inspectors have accounted for a majority of not all of the weapons, now there is a process of trying to move those weapons out of the country, and into international waters for there's going to be a process of neutralizing and the disposing of them spatially. -- safely. the defense department is vessel,ng a commercial in norfolk, virginia right now, being set up to take these materials and dispose of. the biggest problem was trying to get these videos of the country with so many different with assad'sng forces, it is difficult to ensure safe passage of these materials and weapons. the biggest fear is that one of convoys ends up falling into the hands of certain groups followed -- rubbleg alongside

group -- rebel groups. linda on our phone lines. caller: we look at our executive -- the arabit is spring that the president and his aides have embrace has torn in egypt apart. they had great economy, the structure, educational system, that is big for it apart i the muslim brotherhood and the conflicts. christiant even a during church or arty left in is devolvings, it terribly. when we talk about the projected conflicts, they are involving eddie -- evil thing at an

amazing rate. they're not reducing, they are increasing. every able--- what bodied american out there we do not have the numbers because it does not work. happyhe saudis are not with what our executive branch has brought in their neighborhood. host: carlo munoz? guest: i think the caller expressible in the forest -- frustration that is going on in the aftermath of the arab spring, that whole movement came into the region. you saw a lot of these demonstrations early on kind of inspire so much hope and promise and now you're seeing sort of the fallout from that. process, as the caller mentioned, in egypt, in syria, and in libya.

it is one of those things where it gained the momentum all on its own, and now certain -- and has now become the situation worth -- where people are true to take advantage of that opening or kind of move this momentum towards a certain political slant or direction. and thatessy process, is what we're dealing with. host: a headline -- guest: i think, with this example of this most recent attack, it highlights the increasing sort of instability in the country. there has been a lot of turmoil there, beginning with the arab spring. most recently with the former president mohamed morsi, who was

removed from peril or another is this interim government that has been set up. again, kind of going back to the original caller, this is just -- off dental groups regional groups try to take advantage of this vacuum and haven't moved toward their own means. powder springs, georgia on our live for independence. caller: i just wanted to find of generalas aware wesley clark. interview that was posted on inner -- youtube the united where states government had gone to the pentagon with designs to regime change in the middle east

and in seven countries within five years. they wouldn't iraq, afghanistan -- went into iraq, afghanistan, this thing with egypt and syria and libya. i think there's a couple more, iran is one of them. planned in was advance. doy decided they wanted to this, and they do not have valid reasons for doing this stuff. host: carlo munoz? the that's ass far as the last,, i do not that i think that is in dispute as to who conducted those attacks here in washington.

it has been documented and include the that was one of that that was -- one of their goals in iraq. seemed to beler indicating that this was a planned event dating back to 2003 for multiple countries. are you aware of that interview with wesley clark? guest: i have not seen that specific interview. speaking of iraq, a homage john overcomment from e-mail. guest: as far as the weapons of mass destruction in iraq as the

warp progressed, it was pretty clear that those weapons were not in the country, and that basin weekly -- a sickly undercut the george w. bush ministry should's argument for war there. tabs and keeping following, as many people have, some of the on goings in iraq. i think what we're seeing there, drawing the line back to afghanistan, there is some concern because the united states was unable to reach a postwar plan with the country, and did conduct a complete pullout. they opened the door for this resurgence for al qaeda cells in the countries. i think that is sort of a lessons learned as the united states progresses with its drawdown in afghanistan. ahead to 2014, not just the drawdown in afghanistan, but the reports this morning out of russia of a bombing there.

report is the latest from the country's antiterrorist committee. what you make of this bombing? attack isfar as this concerned, there has always been a lot of instability in that area. particularly in chechnya and elsewhere, that has been well documented. i think it is one of these things where these one of a ttacks express a threat that is out there, that these groups are looking to take advantage of any type of opening or vacuum. host: who are the groups in russia that pose the greatest challenge to president putin over there? guest: is going back to the region, theren -- are a lot of fundamentalist

groups over there. the putin administration has been fighting quite hard to quell those areas. that is a particular area where the four fighters are coming in as well -- the foreign fighters are coming in as well. of, they are all sort of connected, but those of the main groups that i see. host: a few comments on twitter -- and a question for you. if you asked the obama administration officials whether or not that has been accessible, they will say yes. whether they are able to take senior and mid-level al qaeda leaders and terrorist figures

efield, so to speak, yes. but as far as these attacks we respond future radicals, i agree with that as well. these attacks have gotten a lot of attention, they're used as examples by the groups like i othersup -- al qaeda and as pieces of propaganda. -- it doubly be can be, and shorn in a certain likely can be a very effective recruiting tactic. it is a double-edged sword, so to speak. subject,'s take that afghanistan, as we talk about the u.s. drawdown, are there plans to keep drones in afghanistan? do we know anything about what the strategy is going to be? guest: this all ties back to the bsa, adding that that -- getting that taken care of.

the bilateral security agreement. if that does get locked into place and these follow-on ,greements are taking care of the american troops in the country after 2014 could be taking care of drone operations. if that is not on the table, i do see the sort of missions continuing, but based out of other u.s. allied countries near that area. in the same way the east drone strikes have been thinking place in pakistan and elsewhere. if i think an agreement cannot be reached -- and i think if an agreement cannot be reached, we will go down that path. host: before you worked at "the you worked at the

defense. metals --om rolling meadows, illinois. caller: good morning. i appreciate you taking my call. vietnam in the infantry, there for 14 months. i would like to comment that i think that the history and historians are going to take -- treat this president very favorably on his foreign-policy. he got his outer rock, out of afghanistan, and kept cap is out of libya and syria -- and kept us out of the libya and syria. regimes are no more friendly to us than they were before. the best thing the united states

can do, i work in the veterans administration, the best thing i can quit -- we can do is to stay out of future wars. key part defenses and navy up, but stay out of war. -- there are better ways of handling these problems and putting troops in there. we have ways to track these people and we will go that way with the rest of the police forces in the world. there isn't a single country government that wants terrorists on their soil. host: how did you feel about those type -- the stories that we would get involved in syria, and then the outcome where we did not. that -- i doandle you think they handled that? caller: i think he realized there was no support in the country for another war. he made it sound as if he were

there, for a way to get and when he got back to the congress to vote on it, that was the end of that. ever zero congressmen knew that just about their full constituency was not going to support them on this. they were afraid to death to have that vote. when kerry came up with the president and got the russians to go along with holding the weapons of mass destruction, that was all we needed, and we stand out of that war. history and the stories are going to thank the president for that move. host: carlo munoz? guest: i think the caller's reflect a lotid of we reason the country. there was a recent poll asking americans whether or not they thought the war in afghanistan was worth fighting for. towards no.s skewed after 12-13 years of conflict going back to the beginning and

they should afghanistan, the american people are really at that point where, as the caller predict thehard to future saying there will be no more war. but i think that desire to go down that road is very indicative of the american's weariness of all of this. host: a question on twitter -- guest: as far as the religion between the u.s. and the saudi's, -- the relationship between the u.s. and the saudi's, it is not as strong, as we go back to the first gulf war and the relationship they had with george h.w. bush. are some other world powers, such as russia, and others, that are trying to make inroads with the saudi's. i think they understand that

ir position ine the region. i think that is sort of the way we are going to see things happen. recently with the flareup in yemen, and some of the extremist groups there, and the threat that that poses to the saudis and the relationship with the head states that came into play there. host: what does the united states need saudi arabia for in the region? guest: location. as far as being able to use areas in saudi arabia to are either -- to either base or oordinate operations in the area. it is good policy to have a country like that as a strong

ally, particularly with some of the operations that the united states could be racing in 2014. was the 2013, war biggest competition for the u.s. relationship with saudi arabia? guest: in 2013, i would have to say it was the flareup along -- in yemen, with the focus there. was some concern that the united states sort of wanted to counterterrorism operations in that area, and there was some concern that some of the low book could -- low back and followed to saudi arabia and other countries in the area. that would be one of the biggest hurdles for 2013. ron, from missouri, on our live for republicans. your live with carlo munoz. commenti just have a

about afghanistan. we are sending $13 billion in afghanistan knowing that there is corruption and waste. their two hundred thousand undisciplined soldiers. they do not need large armies to protect them from other countries, they need a small oorce of about 50,000 tw police and take care of the extremists. if we pull the troops out with is likely to be less violence, in pulling that money from afghanistan who we can pay for military veteran's retirement. oft: a few stats on the size the afghan national army. according to data, as of the beginning of the month, about 187,000. thet: well i think, caller's comments were expressed against the concern that is

going on in the country. it is true, the taliban forces note have vowed to necessarily wait out until the end of the deadline, but they are being aggressive in the areas you would expect them to be aggressive and in the south and the east. that is their traditional stronghold areas. with the recent reports now that the members of the afghan national army, and very -- areas,armies reaching agreements with these taliban leaders. in their conceiving or already handing over military checkpoints to taliban control. this emphasizes some of these problems that the central government has been extending their reach into those areas. to,lmost always comes back as far as the obama concerned, theis

bilateral security agreement area that needs to be locked thisto pave the way for force. we heard that wanted -- the united states wanted that locked in by december 31, but has slipped a little but, correct? saw with the white house, saying that february is something we can work with. host: karzai is pushing for april in time for the elections. guest: that has sort of been not quite off the table, but not in the white house wanted to pursue. we are seeing on capitol hill levin, particular carl

he has backed the notion of waiting until president karzai leaves office and try to work with the ministrations -- with the new administration. karzai has ruffled a lot of others on capitol hill, and certain comments and actions he has taken, and i think the allies that he has had on capitol hill are starting to shift a little bit. host: you bring up the comparisons of afghanistan and iraq/ . is there any indication that afghanistan is looking to what happened after the u.s. drawdown in iraq to try to learn some lessons there? to -- i do not know for sure, but i cannot imagine that they have and see and is going on in iraq,

have had some concern about it. there are a lot of parallels in terms of how this drawdown is progressing in afghanistan, and how it went eventually and iraq. i think the levels of increasing violence, particularly in baghdad, and some of the more populous centers of the country are really -- that would be a lesson learned, something to be take -- to pay attention to. john, on our live for republicans. . iller: my problem is, when think that you are a little less than straightforward about situations, it comes back to bite you. east,ample, in the far the united states says it does not recognize in any way with the chinese restaurant of territory accomplished. we told our airlines you better

tell the chinese what you're doing for safety reasons. that is a recognition of the chinese claims. knowss one reason, who what is going to happen next week, but that is one of the reasons you not see a lot of rack should sign up right now to japanese visit to the city shrine.he departmentthe state everybody realize that it was a military coup, nbc people in thailand and these other cases where people are saying where if we can get rid of elected governments that way, we should do it. it says about a couple -- sets a bad example. we need to be a little more honest about what we are doing. libya, it saidn that we would be saving l ives.

well you cannot be totally truthful all the time and diplomacy, sometimes you go too far the other way. was -- ashink, that the egyptian president was being removed from power, that was the criticism they were facing. whether to call this a coup, or a shift of power in the country. i do agree with the caller, it is sort of a political hairsplitting, and sort of certain aspects of what the united states can he cannot do if an action like that is actually recognized by the white house as a coup. . in terms of his comments as far as the truthfulness and diplomacy, obviously, with the

situations and negotiation, at its root, it is a negotiation to and you cannot -- in these sorts of tenuous situations, you cannot put all of your cards on the table. that is not right or wrong, just the way it is. host: talk about the chinese air defenses that john from arlington brought up, and what the latest is on that. guest: the latest is right, the air defense zone, which is in the coastal waters between china and japan, it is in the eastern rea theee, it is an a detainees have said if you must -- if you want to enter this area you have to identify yourselves and say what mission you're doing. before this it was international space in international waters. have been fights

suggested not to go through that area, but the pentagon is not going to change their operations military missions to the zone. again, it is one of those things where the chinese planted their flag in that area. u.s.ou're starting to see allies and others respond in kind. host: the tensions over the last over this,onths are those to be the height of this or is it going to heat back up and 2014? guest: i will see it heat back extent -- to the small instances. we had a near collision between a u.s. warship and the chinese worship, and i think the way it was handled, it was discussed

ship captainso and figuring that out, that is the way these things are going to be resolved. there's always going to be denton when you're looking at -- pacific and china's asked aggressive expansion there. lines.ob, on our phone caller: i would like to ask you, andisrael,hreat those that would attack if they had a nuclear warhead, how much longer do you think united states and its allies are going to allow iran to continue making

uranium? and you see any intervention in this year? thank you. guest: as far as the enrichment know, and those who have been following the issue number there has been a 10th of agreement reached in the united states and iran -- a tentative agreement reached in the united states and iran, for the loosening of sanctions. this is going to be a huge issue 2014. nd of the year you had some concern and congress bubbling up about the deal itself, and introducing new sanctions against iran in response to their nuclear program. were a lot of the issues that the administration sort of had to look past in order to get this landmark deal done with a wrong to get them to ramp down there nuclear

enrichment efforts. the caller mentioned training camps in the country, there are also groups like has belied withs that are associated regime.ian it was a six-month deal, that when that runs out about it will be like mid spring. rode up for that deadline we are obviously going to see negotiations ramp up even further. secretary of state john kerry will be making multiple trips will be -- to the region to ssible follow-on plan. plan,huge backer of this

but we will have to see how it all plays out. , differencemunoz reporter for the the newspaper "the hill." thank you for being with us. next.d norton smith, up we will be right back. ♪ >> lincoln did not decide early until the last minute, as lincoln often did. he probably met with the pennsylvania governor on november 14, and i think that is when lincoln finally realized he had to decide, and he decide to

go. on the night of november the 17th, just as he said to his old friend james u.s.-made, he told speed, he told him that he had time to write about half his face, and he wrote the rest of it on the way there. he wrote the speech leg, but that did not mean that it was not important to him. he decided to go, and he took a lot of attention to his words once he knew he was going. historians talk about events and circumstances around abe lincoln's gettysburg address, today at 11 a.m. eastern. i think radio is the longest and best form of media that is

left. what we are doing right now is an hour-long conversation, and only c-span does longform conversation anymore. it is tremendously revealing with an author -- when an author has had their book these days, because they do not have many who have read the book and have do --nts of page with page notes. it is the biggest reward me when an author says that is the best interview i've had. that makes my day. i like radio, three hours is an abundance of time, and i can do so many different things. >> >> more with radio talk host hugh hewitt. >> he says what he thinks, no matter what it is.

i think you have to be political in a certain way. you have to be honest, and you have to say the same things, but still you have to cater to people sometimes come i think, now what they think and need to influence them to vote for you. it is not being dishonest it is just finding out what they want and letting them know how you're going to help them with that problem and the things they want. >> first ladies, season two. this week, lady bird johnson to rosalynn carter. washington journal continues. author and presidential historian richard norton smith joins us now discussion on second term residencies as

president obama is about to turn the page on the first year of his second term. mr. smith, at this point what can we say yet whether or not present obama's going to fall into a certain mold of a second term president? peopleit is amazing how are in a rush to get beyond the next three years, there's a large part of the media that cannot wait for the next campaign horserace. aey forget that that we have present for the next three years. been true that he has suffering from the second term jinx. orange -- george washington had a very dormy second term -- st ormy second term. jefferson, who in his

first term bought louisiana, and it was enough to get on my rushmore -- get on mount rushmore, but in his second term he had the threat of war, and he and post an economic embargo and american shipping to europe that blew up in his face. host: how do presidents make themselves relevant in their second term, when there is that focus on the next election? guest: the nature of the modern media is such that under the best of circumstances they are with the notable exception of c- span, disinclined to spend a lot of time examining the innards of public policy, they're much more attracted to the horserace. who is up, who is down, who's in, who's out, what did the latest old show -- what do the

latest polls show? if you look at the last two presidents, one conservative republican, what -- one center democrat, each of them sing to have significant challenges going into the second term. bill clinton had some real problems in his second term. question, maybe it tells us more about us and how we cover presidents, that it does about the presidents themselves. if it applies to presidents across the political spectrum, maybe do something about the modern coverage of presidents that predisposes them to problems in a second term. host: where is president obama right now in terms of historically relating to past resident -- presidents?

8, 2005 gallup whole, two months after hurricane katrina, he first registered a 50 -- 43% approval rating with 52% saying they disapproved of his performance. day, hewo years to the declined to 41%. guest: first of all, you have two different situations. in the case of the bush presidency, there was a slow, steady, almost leaking of the air out of a balloon. katrina was a critical moment, but you had a fairly steady loss of support for the iraq war and that was kind of a heavy baggage that the president had to carry. tried a couple of instances of social security

reform, and he tried information reform -- immigration reform, and he was trying to that she was unable to get his own party, let alone the regrets and christian -- democrats interested. then you have this president, and the people who were contrasting it this party and low president with the republican party. fluidity,s to be more i would say, with this president. he is certainly down now, let's if thereonths from now

are 7 million people signed up on obamacare. host: other examples of presidents overcoming a tough year? guest: that is a great question, because although it is a jinx, i do not think it is a curse. bill clinton is a very good example. people zero in on the impeachment efforts, on the other hand they overlook the in athat he turned balanced budget, welfare reform, and significant process on kosovo. sure, hadgan, to be to deal with iran contra, but in his second term he achieved tax reform, immigration reform, and most important of all, the inf treaty doing away with an entire

doingof nuclear weapons, -- paving the way for the end of the cold war. was interesting to me is to look at reagan and clinton, just a generation ago who had more mixed records in their second terms. historians are now more generous integrating their overall performance. then you look at their successors, one republican, one democrat do and it seems to be focusinger -- and the screen much narrower and less generous. host: we're speaking with richard norton smith, author of several books. you can read this story on cnn,

calling, -- call in, our phone lines are open. several folks waiting to talk to you about this subject. brandon from las vegas, nevada court the democrats -- for the democrats. go ahead. basically, you said something about his story is -- about how historians will be nicer after a long time. you think in the future richard nixon will be absolved of the watergate scandal and people will pay attention more to his positive impact on the world, such as opening up china? guest: that is a good

restaurant. i cannot answer because i am not clairvoyant, but i can tell you that certainly, even at the time of mr. nixon must debt, i remember stephen ambrose who had bread and -- who had written a biography of him had expressed surprise that the genuine outpouring of emotion. even at that time nixon had regained, among some people, some of the aberration -- admiration for the very things you talked about. -- if this ism heeed the china century, will either be saying is the president who resigned, or a president who opened china to the world. --t: in twitter guest: let me see.

johnson, who succeeded abraham lincoln was impeached. clinton,on -- bill there was talk about impeaching both john tyler was a one term, that is it. from let's go to our old indianapolis, indianapoli. -- to our caller. good morning. i have been a firm democrat all my life, and i just feel we was looking more at obama when he first got in office, and the way livingpeople the cost of

raise, and did things out of character for a democratic president. he let a lot of people down, you do not promise things you cannot deliver. as a president, you do not go you can go back in history, and find presidents did what they said they're going to do, and a lot of people may be down on their common -- on them, but they did not hurt anybody. there are a lot of people very upset with obama, and i feel his rater a time that will go down even farther, and i feel that the resident that lies to you and get your hopes up should be reached -- impeached.

guest: i do think it is interesting at what point you rate this. the shared rescue of wall street by the bush and obama administration. one thing that i do not think has gotten enough attention, and will over time, you think back to 1932 and roosevelt and hoover were talking to each other at the very depths of the great depression. by striking contest for, for better or for worse, i would argue that from november of 2008, to january 2009 we had 1.5 presidents. the outgoing bush administration cooperated in a historic way with the incoming obama administration. they both lot into tarp mooches

newberry -- which was a very unpopular program. notwithstanding the fact that it'll all likelihood he kept a bad situation from turning into something infinitely worse. the ability tot follow up on promises in their second term? rate --it is an interest- an interesting point, because most presidents get the big things done in their first term. lyndon johnson, after the huge landslide made it very clear that he had one year. he knew capital hill better than anyone, and he had one year to great society, however

defined, enacted into law. and turned out to be right. already midterm elections, and the effect of the vietnam war to be managed on the hill. presidents historically have used their first terms to do their biggest oracle achievements. i would suspect that the president's defenders would point out that the very last thatse that he kept is one presidents for a hundred years have been trying to keep to escalate. universal health care -- successfully, universal health care. host: one of the news remembered resident

obama accepting lame for the health-care failure. i want to play a little but of that clip, and have you put it in perspective. >> i understand why folks are frustrated, i would be too, atause sometimes people look what is taking place in notington, and they say enough is getting done that helps me with my life. and regardless of what congress does, ultimately i am the president of the united states, and they could be to do something about it. in terms of how i intend to approach it, i'm just going to as i caning as hard around the priorities that the american people care about. i think it is legitimate for them to expect me to have to win back some credibility on this health care law in particular, and on a whole range of these issues in general.

that is on me. we fumbled the rollout on this health care law. host: in that clip the president talks about winning back credibility. however other residents won background ability in their second term? guest: that is a good question. ronald reagan had a real problem with iran contra. his poll ratings dropped overnight because people, even people who do not even vote for reagan, there was a special kind of odd that existed between reagan and the american people. it may have gone back to the assassination attempt, or the heirs control situation. they credit him with 20 to do the right thing, and then iran contra came along and there was

no way to fit that into that assumption. he appointed an independent review committee. he took his lumps, he went down in the polls, but the interesting thing is he was a fdr,y successful president in his inaugural address established a connection that through him through all sorts of controversies. aere was a majority -- never majority of americans that he was a dictator. that was what he was called by his opponents. reagan had this that he was able

to use to sustain him. he had a historically significant policy, and he saw his numbers shoot back up again. it was... the people were willing to say no one is perfect, you made a mistake, we are willing to move beyond it. we're talking with richard a man who knows his presidents very well. he served as the director of libraries,sidential and he can answer your russians and comments. margaret, from our line for dents.ndence -- indepen

caller: the lack of majority in congress, and/or senate for second term presidencies, does not have anything to do with the polls dropping, and the last effective the president has become? guest: that is a great question. there is something called the six year curse, and that affects great presidents, and significant presidents, insignificant presidents across the board. elections tend to go very badly against the white house. it happened to bring the roosevelt in 1938.

in recent years, george whoosh experienced it in 2006, bill clinton did not because in large part it was a perception that it was a backlash against the impeachment attempt. is ad large, the six-year powerthat the party in dreads. the democrats are probably looking at the senate majority and try to get -- and dreading that. host: on twitter-- tom is on our line for independents. caller: obama took on policies of bush.

there are some problems here in the rich are and making the poor even poorer, and they are putting the money in their pockets. the outsourcing of jobs was the worst thing anyone could have done. job./11 was an inside callingt: that is tom, from illinois. watching, i'mm hearing him say how second term presidents have such a hard time. i wonder why there is a magical number that they can run twice, and if anybody has done about -- thought about only having one term, and it wouldn't be spending their last years running for a second term.

and i think it should be term limits on our congressmen. you might be surprised to know, if you asked all of the former presidents, they would all agree that a single six-year term for the president might be better than what we have now. certainly it is true with 24- oear terms -- with tw four year terms, they give a lot of thought to being reelected, and then they become lame duck says soon as they are. a longer duration might be a good idea. there was no, limit on how many terms a president could run for. when republicans took congress, they basically beat up on a dead

man, franklin roosevelt who had one for terms -- won four terms. once they amended the constitution, they elected a president of their own that was efficiently a that if he had wanted a third term of their host: can you talk about the state of america's pocketbooks and how they play into success or failure of the second term? aret: economic issues always going to be predominant. they don't call it reaganomics

anymore. in 1982 --et trade forget. 1982, his popularity was at 39% at one point. lost 26 seats in the house, managed to keep the senate. clearly, as the reagan boom took over, first in 1984, it powered his reelection. keep the democrats for retaking the senate in 1986. -- from retaking the senate in 1986. there is something about six years. people are eager for change. host: we are talking with presidential historian richard norton smith, involved in

several projects over the years about presidential history. when coming up in 2014 is your presidents and patriots tour. what is that about? ourt: in may we are doing newest tour, brand-new itinerary. we are starting in birmingham, over to warm springs, georgia and atlanta. andersonville, jekyll island, savannah, charleston. nine days, several presidential sites. this time we have designed a tour that is equal parts civil war and civil rights history. host: is this a lecture series? putt: we get a bus and we 35 people on it and we go to great historic hotels and restaurants and walk through historic sites and museums and libraries. you name it.

it's a great adventure. we have lots of repeat participants. online to presiden tsandpatriots. if you want to talk to a real, 657- human being, call 202- 7744. host: richard norton smith is with us for the next half hour or so. ginger is on our line for independents. i am somewhat of an anomaly, or was. i live in louisiana. i am a caucasian.

i was so excited when obama came out. i fell in love with this man. course, i don't tell anybody who i voted for. i voted for him because it would start a brawl down here. i voted for him in both elections. in the last six months i started to think, did he not mean what he said in all his campaign promises, or are the republicans preventing him from accomplishing these? months, with the nsa, i've started to feel that the president has not been honest with the citizens. my husband and i are both disabled. i'm 51. i have been disabled for 10 years. shut down the hospitals. i have cataracts in either eye.

i'm going blind at 51. i called about the government insurance, obamacare. we are both disabled. we make $32,000 a year. i have not had health insurance in over 10 years. for the bronze, it would cost me a minimum of $300 a month, upward. platinum or gold was over $800. i'm lucky if i have $20 b end of the month. host: can we ask you what you think this president cost last term will be remembered for? -- president's last term will be remembered for? to doubtt is caused me everything i believe about this man.

jimmy carter was too good a man to play the game. that was the impression i had of obama. i think he hoodwinked me. host: richard norton smith, i will let you jump in here. guest: i'm not going to try to argue her viewpoint. i would be interested to know what it was about the nsa that disturbed her, and led her to believe the president had been less than honest. host: do you think that might be an issue that is remembered most? internals oft the the polling -- president has dropped most sharply among many of his own former supporters, particularly younger voters. i think the nsa cuts very sharply. host: nsa a very big story of 2013. what are you going to remember

about 2013? guest: i'm a biographer. to twong to say goodbye very different giants of history, each in their own way demonstrated against the cynicism of our time, that individuals can positively the course of history. what is margaret and one is nelson mandela. -- one is margaret thatcher and what is nelson mandela. i'm going to say hello to pope francis. each asks about president obama and his qualifications. wouldn't you agree that mr. obama was probably the least qualified candidate for president in the last 100 years? guest: i don't know about that.

if you look back over the course of american history, we don't elect legislators to the presidency. in the 20th century, we have done it three times. i'm sorry, in the last 100 years we have done it three times. presidenttly with obama. , whoe him, john f. kennedy as soon as he got to the senate was angling to get out of the senate, and warren harding, enough said. by and large, there's a reason we tend to favor governors. we see it as an executive an extension of what governors do as opposed to senators. one of the unglamorous functions of government is to make it work , simply work.

, you don'ta senator have a lot of people to manage. have a lot of administrative experience. as a governor, that is par for the course. next fromleen is up pompano beach, florida on our line for democrats. good morning. it's pompano beach. host: sorry about that. caller: not a problem. descendent of american slaves, i feel like every president kicked us under the bus. i'm very upset when it comes to president obama. not a nine percent of the descendents of american slaves 99%d for our president -- of the descendents of american

slaves voted for our president. he has not done anything to help us and our kids. whatld like to know president came up with the dream come january, it's going to be martin luther king's birthday. when i get my dreams and they would say to dream that, i feel like i should have the dream. not to be mean or anything. i want to know who came up with this dream act. i don't know what the origins are. it was something that was debated during the previous presidency. , president george w. bush delivered a primetime national address calling on congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform. i want to play a little bit of that and talk about the history of this issue. [video clip]

>> tonight i want to speak directly to members of the house and senate. bill needsion reform to be comprehensive. all elements of this problem must be addressed together, or none will be solved at all. has passed an immigration bill. the senate should act by the end of this month, so we can work out the differences between the two bills in congress can pass a comprehensive bill for me to sign into law. america needs to conduct its debate on immigration in a reasoned and respectful tone. we work it out, all of us need to keep some things in mind. unifiedt build a country by inciting people to anger or playing on anyone's fears or exploiting the issue of immigration for political gain. that was president bush

back in may of 2006. how tough has the issue of immigration been for presidents to move through congress? guest: they goes back to the 19th century -- it goes back to , the regional,y almost exclusively european, but to a much more expensive, global, inclusive pattern. in 2006 belongs to a species of presidential leadership -- is one reason why, with the passage of time, presidents often tend to get re- reviewed more generously than at the time. one of the examples we remember harry truman for is the fact

that he was campaigning for what became medicare. he wasn't able to achieve it in the political climate of his time, but he was credited with having the vision, being ahead of the curve. possible some day when the next round -- it is an ongoing process of immigration -- that some of the credit will be given to president bush, who was not able to get a bill passed at the time, but who will likewise be --ognized as someone something of a visionary. host: we are talking about presidents' second terms. is and on twitter says, it too early to decide about president obama's term. guest: absolutely. a collar on our line for republicans.

-- caller on our line for republicans. the americander if theic attributes too much effect of government policy, specifically presidential policy on the economy and culture in general. , everyone says good things about president clinton, but they never say anything .bout newt gingrich trie even more so the effect of the technological revolution. gdpeffect of that increased . more ofate sector had an effect on government budget than anything else.

in 2008, everyone says it was president this, that. they never specifically say policies and affects. just about american culture, buying houses, driving up the prices. it has us always looking towards the president. some of the other issues and problems we need to fix ourselves. the caller raises a valid point. one of the interesting byproducts of the clinton years -- this goes back to when he was talking about -- pollsters started asking questions different from a traditional question focused almost exclusively. blamed for badot times and credit for good times. in the 1990's, pollsters went out and said, tell us who you think is responsible.

the president in very good times got a lot of credit great alan greenspan and the federal reserve got a lot of credit -- credit. alan greenspan and the federal reserve got a lot of credit. what the caller says is already in effect. step high anden a real people. personalizends to -- behind real people. the media tends to personalize, to focus on the presidency in a way that probably does exaggerate its impact on how most people live their lives. host: you bring people who work for the president. can you talk about second term presidential cabinets and appointments and how they are different from the first term? guest: that is a significant factor.

even a president who wins a big endorsement going into a second him,with the public behind the excitement -- the sense of making -- first, inaugural, is largely missing the second time around. there are people who are basically worn out. it does not matter if it is a republican or democrat. if you are working 18 hour days at the white house because you really believe in what you are doing, you can only do it for so long. one thing that happens is, by the end of the first term, you have people who have made that kind of sacrifice, sometimes financial. they have burned out, and they are replaced.

int: a cnn puts it, gone that second term is the quote, energized atm -- a-team from the first term. caller from california on our democrats line. i really admire and respect your fairness towards our president. i think a lot of people follow the conservative media too much and fall for so much b.s. that is put out there. if we have the chance to follow through with some of the dreams he wanted for this country, it would be so great.

he has been stopped at every turn. president woodrow wilson was told about this behind-the- scenes group that everybody had to be cautious about. i have felt for a long time that the president is a front man, aremilitary or elites running everything. they are allowed to do so much. on this website, who what why, went into it. i hope and pray for the american people that they don't put so much trust or look for trust in world, going on in this he isrned to god, because the only hope for an internal, good future. -- eternal, good future. host: i went to ask you about this headline from a recent "washington post" story.

senate's filibuster rule change should help obama achieve key second term priorities. guest: there is a classic instance of something that probably frankly is not being discussed by millions of americans this holiday season sitting around their kitchen tables. there is no doubt that an absolute stalemate had ensued, for whatever reason or reasons. the opposition decided to be the unyielding opposition. the president was having a devil of a time getting positions filled. positions, and basic administrative positions.

harry reid who had resisted several times pressure to go nuclear, as it was called, finally had had his fill. is, fory what it means most appointments, not supreme court appointments, but for most appointments, the simple majority will avail. significantmously as long as the democrats have a majority of the senate. one of the things that is new about this -- obstructionism is a loaded word. there is a significant part of the republican minority that appears to be interested not simply in blocking someone

because their credentials are questionable, or even because their ideology is offensive, but because by blocking someone, that particular agency cannot function. it cannot function at a peak of efficiency. if you can't block the budget, prevent the agency from being created, you can make it difficult if not impossible for the agency to function at anywhere near peak efficiency simply by lopping off its head. host: here is a question from james on twitter. is there any chance that america will give another bush the presidency? guest: i could not give odds. i have no idea. 2016 is a long way away. is up next from virginia on our line for democrats. caller: good morning.

nice to meet you, and happy new year. i want to speak about term limits, and also about the health care program, the under obama.re act i want to break it down into two parts. has a good speaker idea about six-year terms. i think it should be five. for four years they are worried about governing, and that fifth year there would be a lot of campaigning going on. i think five years is a good limit. congressmen, senators and representatives need to have term limits to be established. specifically about obama, i believe this health care thing

is going to cause him a problem in the second term. there are a lot of things in here that people don't know about. i'm actually on the site right now, healthcare.gov. it's amazing to me because i'm a veteran, i have a part-time job. be $9,000income will a year. i also go to school full-time. i receive a stipend every month from the g.i. bill to go to school. said, i just went onto the website and looked up some sample information. --ed on the living virginia me living in virginia -- virginia cannot get subsidized -- i believe the incoming governor has indicated his intention -- host: on medicaid.

guest: to change that policy. host: did you want to jump in on chris's other comments about the presidency? specifically? host: obamacare being named after this president. the intense personalization that the media has. examples ofhere any this before the 1950's or 1960's or the rise of television? guest: sure. fdr had the roosevelt revolution. the roosevelt recession. in the modern era, as presidents -- firstre visible radio, then through film -- as becoments have almost adjunct members of our family

because of television and the internet, the constant exposure they have, it is only increased that tendency. the greatest single danger to presidents and one reason why second terms tend to be dreary earier than the first is a danger of exposure. host: a caller from new mexico on our line for independents. he says inst of all, his past term that jobs had been his number one issue. the aca has been his number one issue. i wonder if he has ever had a real job. in his secondate term on anything? that's an interesting -- i'm not sure. i don't work for the white house. have heard the president offered to negotiate on a number of things.

take something very specific, very concrete. it will be interesting to see what happens on this proposed extension of unemployment. while all this debate is going on, there are real-life people out there who are hurting badly. in some ways, at the worst time of the year, they have lost their financial lifeline and are waiting. they don't care who negotiates what. they want to see the system work. boston --s go to alan al in boston our line for independents. caller: it seems like the obama second term is turning out to be george bush's third term on national security. it seems that someone on the

left does not understand there are people out there who want to hurt this country. nsa, the drone issue -- obviously, he is doing something that is necessary. they know something we don't know. it is clearly after a president comes in, in 24 hours, the cia comes in and a ghost from a political map to the reality of the world that people want to -- a politicaltfrom map to the reality of the world that people want to hurt us. closing, in our own neighborhoods, we lock our own doors, put your money in the bank. abroad and assume that fellow americans would hurt one another, but we don't assume there are people who would want to hurt this country. security is paramount.

without national security, there is no economy. it's much too soon to be conclusions, but i think the caller is onto something. continuitys of between the bush and obama presidencies probably do surprise a lot of people. in terms of national security likey, but also economics tarp. it is believed that after presidents get elected, they have a reality check with the security agencies and other members of the president's cap that. -- cabinet. that, a a history of president having to change from the campaign trail to what they find out when they find out?

lots of presidents decide that is the case. notion ofe civics 101 the president is the most powerful man in the world. i suspect if you asked presidents once they get out of office, maybe the biggest surprise that they find is how powerless they are. presidents spend much more time reacting to events they did not initiate, and may very well be beyond their control, then they do to controlling events. bette in's go to pennsylvania, on our line for republicans. good morning. you touched on something i had

never really heard before. of oure beginning country, presidents have been trying to have some sort of a health program. i have never heard that blanket statement before. historian, are the you may be just hit the high points. it's a terrific morning. everyone is really sinking, good americans out there. who is with everyone saying we need term limits. they are come in and great, wonderful, but you can only take so long. -- it so long. guest: with the rise of industrial america, government expanded. theodore roosevelt was the first somen who talked about kind of health insurance. planrd nixon proposed a

that is in many ways a forerunner of obamacare, with an individual mandate. on said he later regretted having opposed the nexen plan when he did because he thought he could get better -- nixon plan when he did because he thought he could get better. said, we went to bat in 1948 for what eventually became medicare. eisenhower had a base in the , encouraging them to take risks, particularly in catastrophic health insurance. most presidents have approached the problem one way or the other. it is certainly a historical achievement for this president

to get a program past. -- passed. host: several colors bringing up the idea of bringing it to one term for a president. -- callers bringing up the idea of bringing it to one term for a president. guest: we are in a period of gridlock. who thinks were going to amend the constitution, to undertake such a radical change in how we govern ourselves -- good luck. host: richard norton smith is a scholar in residence at george mason university. you can learn about his upcoming efforts at presidentsandpa triots.com. we always appreciate you joining us on "washington journal." host: we will be back to open up our phones on the question of whether the american dream is still attainable.

first, an update on what is coming up on the sunday shows from c-span radio. today's sunday television talk shows, the topics include discussions of the health care long rollout, nsa leaker edward snowden, iran, and a look back at people in the news in 2013. you can hear rebroadcasts of all the programs on speed span radio beginning at noon eastern time -- cspan radio beginning at noon eastern time. at 1:00 p.m., abc's "this week cruz and the game changers. at 2:00 eastern, "fox news sunday." dean, mike rogers, and adam schiff, also a member of the intelligence committee. "state of the union" follows at 3:00, with a year and look at

the top political moments of 2013. 4:00 withnation" at the general michael hayden, former director of the nsa. sunny network tv talk shows are on c-span radio and brought to service by the networks and c-span. rebroadcasts of the show begin at noon eastern with "meet the press." 1:00, "this week." 3:00, "state of the union." four clock, "face the nation." listen to the mall -- 4:00, "face the nation." to them all of xm satellite radio channel 120. -- on xm satellite radio channel 120. have secular norms instead of theological norms that govern our acceptance or

rejection of the ways in which a god or gods or goddess can speak to people. for example, the branch davidians. david qureshi saying he has a special insight into the bible, and these insights help the other members of the community understand the bible, particularly revelation, better, and helps him understand they're living in the end times in a way a lot of americans do not accept. that itself does not seem to be a problem. when it leads to other elements that trigger both law enforcement's insert -- concern as well as the popular press, concern, this idea of someone listening to god and having his followers doing things that seem to be aberrant to national norms, that is dangerous. that needs to be policed and controlled. the author argues that

religious persecution in america has been committed even by the government that is supposed to protect us from persecution. part of book tv this weekend on c-span2. host: in the time we have left on today's "washington journal," we're revisiting the question we posed earlier to you -- is the american dream still attainable? our phone lines are still open. we want to hear whether you think the american dream is still attainable. the phone numbers are on your screen. several e-mails coming in throughout the course of the show on the subject.

that educationin or a solid trade can lead to the american dream. some people think the american dream is making a million dollars, but it's not. for most of us, the dream is having a job and being able to pay our bills without going into debt. tv has exaggerated the dream that we should not just have a car, but a cool car. that beingimes think a drug dealer is the american dream. that is bonnie this morning over e-mail. if your rights in, i think it's impossible to attain the american dream due to -- a i think it's in, impossible to attain the american dream due to a lot of facts.

these are just a few of the e- mails we have received throughout the course of the show. we want to take your calls and your tweets as well. our phone lines are open to you. as we wait for you to call in on that subject, just want to scroll through a few of the papers. a lot of 2013 years in review. this is the "sub a democrat." -- "sunday democrat." herald," themiami year of the bust. it was the dirtiest of years when it came to public corruption in miami-dade county. " releasedork times their sunday review year in pictures. that is the front page of that

from the canyon -- kenyan mall attack in nairobi. our viewers, is the american dream still attainable? john is up in virginia on our line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning. it is less unless attainable. we all know it takes money to make money. the game has been rigged. the wealthy now control congress. they have made the rich richer and the poor poorer. to only way were going change that is get more democrats in congress. we need to start taxing outrageous wealth. there's no reason why anybody should have more than $1 billion. anyone who has over $10 million

shouldbillion in assets have a search warrant. thank you. host: that was john in fairfax, virginia. dean writes in that it is so much harder for younger generations to reach the american dream. don writes in -- next in niagara falls, new york on our land for independents. is the american dream still attainable? caller: no, it's not. endtarted coming to an around 1978, when the

meatpackers' union was being busted up. and then when ronald reagan got in, he took out the air traffic controllers. that gave the go-ahead for all the other corporations to wipe out the unions. now the governors, like the one , have taken out the county, state workers' unions. think thedo you american dream is so closely linked to the unions? the unions -- are not pro-union and anti-union. but the unions kept the labor -- wouldnon-union work

keep the pay rate scale up for non-union workers, and union- workers. host: so it would help with the income disparity? caller: yes. there's no way for an american citizen to survive working for $11 an hour. that is impossible. host: bell is waiting in indiana on our line for independents. caller: thank you. i don't believe the american dream is attainable because it needs capitalism. without capitalism, you can't achieve.

our capitalism has been turned into socialism, and our .ationalism turned to globalism we are just being taken along for the ride. that's all i have to say. thank you. another one of those end of year columns for you, this one by bob ehrlich. he writes a column in the "baltimore sun." he offers 10 wishes for the new year. the number one wish he has is our libertarian and tea party friends would stop nominating candidates who screw up winnable races.

one other which the former governor has really -- has for writes,year -- he thousands of americans face long prison sentences for relatively minor offenses. one of many end of your stories and columns coming out. we have about 15 minutes left with our viewers to talk about the american dream and whether you think it is still attainable here at the end of 2013. a caller on our line for democrats ar. theer: i want to talk about american dream, but i think this president we have now has buteved the american dream,

his hands have been tied from the beginning. he has not been able to do anything with the american dream . i am 74 years old. child -- i'm a proud american of african descent -- we did not dream the american dream. white boys always said they wanted to grow up to be president of the united states. idea what itve any would be like to grow up to be president of the united states of america. president has that thoseat dream young boys dreamed, but his hands are so tied from the beginning.

he was supposed to be a one-term president. in my estimation, he has not let america down. he has done everything he possibly can. he is in an element that we know nothing about as african- americans. there was a lady who called in earlier who was an african american lady who is angry with the president. her anger is misguided. whos surrounded by people did not want to see him succeed. a few more e-mails to read to you on the subject. steve enables rights, with so many americans and legal residents unable to find any job and living on the streets, democrats are pushing hard to

pass comprehensive amnesty to million new job seekers and allow businesses to import more than 200,000 new workers every month. an e-mail from michael in lakeland, florida. in rio rancho,n new mexico. caller: happy holidays. i have called, and i'm going back to college. i just turned 50 years old. i'm going to graduate next year, economics and sociology.

it has been about six to eight years, total, finishing my four year degree. had trouble getting full-time employment, but i've been able to employ myself as a wedding dj many times. 20 times a year i go out and dj wedding. i don't apologize for not having a job anymore. i have applied for every single job that i even thought i might be qualified for, for 10 years i had trouble getting a job. this is not the country i grew up thinking it was. everyone seems to be out for themselves. nobody seems to be out for the team or helping others. that seems to be a dream. host: has your idea of the american dream changed? caller: yes. i have a son who is about to

graduate from high school and makes all a's. he plays music, has a room full of guitars. now i just think it is a country full of people who take advantage of everyone else. we have become a few rich people who tell everyone else what they think they need to hear, while they take everything. we are a country of takers, not givers. if i was going to give you a tagline, i would say we are a country of takers and not givers. host: a few more tweets. but other tweet for you -- one other treat for you.

-- tweet for you. this from the "washington post," a lengthy article about party control. along with that story is this chart that noting the recent gridlock in congress has been blamed on increasingly antagonistic political among democrats and republicans, but the phenomenon is not unique to washington. three quarters of the states are controlled by either republicans or democrats, more than at any time in recent history. numberry talks about the of states with split control, and how those numbers have shrunk from 29 states with split control in the 1990's down to 12

states today with split control. those states are arkansas, new mexico, kentucky, maine, rhode island, missouri, nevada, iowa, virginia, new jersey, new hampshire, and montana. series,check out that states of polarization, in today's "washington post." >barney is on our line for republicans. -- bonnie is on our line for republicans. i still believe we can have the american dream. we just need to go back to the republicans and we will do fine. blaine is in texas on our line for independents. caller: i had to chuckle about that last color. she's exactly right -- caller. she's exactly right.

there were miles of pipeline in laramie, wyoming set up for the fuel industry. i work in oil business myself. nobody wants big messes up stuff. i grew up in michigan. i have been to wyoming, i've been all over the country working. you cannot stay in one place. you can't stagnate. gm is nowhigan -- going to be built in china. i never ask my relatives how much they lost in the g" "takeover."gm yourself, you got to take responsibility, keep moving. remain educated. try and learn new stuff. host: a tweet from texas this

morning -- one other tweet for you -- other stories we want to note pieceu this morning, a on the workplace in the "baltimore sun." it is an interview with the partnership for public service, talking about leadership and their recent survey on the best places to work in the federal government. max dyer appeared on the "washington journal" recently. if you want to check out his full interview, you can check that out at www.c-span.org.

another item in the "baltimore sun," noting that the first licensed pot dealers are opening in colorado. first state licensed marijuana retailers catering to colorado's newly legal recreational market for pot are stocking their shelves. for the novelty factor alone, operators in the first eight marijuana retailers slated to , and handfulsday of other locations are anticipating a surge in demand. it will be like people waiting in line for tickets to a pink floyd concert, said justin jones. let's go to eric now. is in pensacola, florida on our line for independents. caller: thank you. attainable, but

there are some very important caveats that have been quite illustrated during the calls, especially the first call we got. some man called and wanted to demand that people not earn a certain amount. we have got to stop looking at people being successful is just a millionaire or billionaire. there are quite a few people who thatquiet lives of success don't involve all the trappings of materialism and conspicuous consumption and entitlement, dependency, and corporate dependency. fear -- i see there is a small class above us that thinks that we the middle class are supposed to pay for their private-publicat partnerships, where the private takes the profit and the public takes the losses. then we have another big mass of people who think on the

entitlement side -- a lot of people are deliberately .neducated i want your help on this, because i really can't get any the middle-class is a beached whale, and all these animals are coming out of the forest and feeding on us. there is nothing left. like we are being attacked from all corners. what is your solution for it? we cannot keep spending like we have. we have $17 trillion in debt. i have my own garden, i raise my own chickens. i would like to have other things. selfld love to be dependent. i don't want someone to take care of me, to force me to take care of them. host: eric from pensacola on our line for independents. that will do it for today's "washington journal."

make sure you tune in tomorrow. we will be with lawrence yun. two health-care reporters are joining us for a discussion of insurance coverage under the affordable care act, which is beginning january 1 for those who signed up under the new law. that is tomorrow morning at 7:00 at 4:00 a.m. pacific. thanks for joining us on the "washington journal." [captioning performed by the national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> today, "newsmakers" with

randi weingarten, followed by world bank projects. later, a discussion on gender, race, and incarceration hosted by tulane university. this week on "newsmakers," we are joined by the president of the american federation of teachers. here in studio in d.c., allison klein, staff writer for "education week." kaitlyn who covers questions for "politico." 46 states and the district of columbia have adopted new college and career ready standards in reading and math. this has been somewhat of a bumpy rollout. you said that the rollout of

after core has been worse the affordable care act. can you talk about what you meant there? let me just say that we at the we are big supporters of the notably amendola did in a straitjacket type of wife not in a straitjacket type of why, but we are more committed to told solving and applying knowledge, which is what kids were need to do and middlew to do for the class jobs of this century and the next -- well i will not be talking about the next center, but the rest of the century. we became a big believer and how you have these have these kinds of standards.