-- 830 a.m. eastern, a focus on the value of a college education. and national review writer discusses his article "drop the dropout," which examines society's push toward obtaining a college degree. ♪ good morning on this tuesday, may 13, 2014. a bipartisan bill to encourage energy efficiency in buildings expired in the senate on monday over disagreements on the keystone xl pipeline and the president's new climate change regulations. the senate voted 55 to 36 on a procedural motion, falling five votes short on what was required to bring the bill to a final vote. live coverage of the senate today on c-span two. this morning we will focus on the price of college.

we will discuss if college is worth it. first, your take on that question. we will divide the lines this way. hig host: you can also e-mail us. magazine" put these graphics together on whether or not colleges worth it. take a look at this, the cost, fees adjusted for inflation. look at the cost back in 1980, 19 81, around $5,000 for a two-year public degree, for your public degrees right here. you can see how the cost has risen. in 2010, 20 11, that price is

over $25,000 for your private school. that is the price here, going from 1980 through 2010. for a two-year public school, the lighter color, you can see the price there. up at all those categories. here's is the poll -- americans think that college education has become too expensive for most people. 75% believe that most people cannot afford a college education. 22% said that most people can. families differ on who should pay for it. thateneral public believes 48% should come from students and families. that the state government should pick up 12%. the federal government, 18%. college presidents believe that families and students should pay 63% of the price of college, while they believe state governments should pick up a greater share over the federal government.

yet most college graduates say that college was a good investment for them. 86% believe it was a good investment to go to college. what do you think? is college worth it? you have divided the lines a little bit differently today. and then the payoff. immediate earnings of a 25-year-old to a 35-year-old full-time worker with a bachelors degree, there is the payoff right there. you are looking at over $40,000 per year in 2010. there is the number in 1980. you can see what has happened since 1980 if you only have a high school diploma. the median earnings of 25 to ,4-year-old full-time workers

you can see the difference. a slim majority of higher education graduates thinks that testing for college prepares him for a job. 74% believe it gives them intellectual growth. 69% says that it gives them maturity. they say that paying back student loans can affect their career choice. this is the percentage of students saying student loans make it harder to pay their bills. it was that. 25% said more difficult to buy a home. 24% said that it made it more difficult to choose a career. trish is up first. what are your thoughts? >> hi, good morning. how are you? host: the morning. caller: i am a high school graduate. i did not attend any college. because of our job market situation in this country today,

there is a lot of pressure to get a college education, a four-year degree, however the jobs are not out there that support an income to pay off the college standard of a four-year degree. i know a lot of people who went wound up working at mcdonald's for minimum wage or another minimum-wage factory job. they have carried their college debt for 25, 30 years. so, you know, i don't see that a college degree is worth it. we should get high school kids in high school into career training and point them in a direction where their natural interests lie, to train them to go into the workforce without having to invest in of debts and thousands for education that we don't know

that they are going to be able to even find a career in that area that they study for. having a you end up career? what do you do for a living? over the years i stay at home with my kids, when they were little. i have had part-time jobs. but i have never been able to get a job that was above minimum wage. don'tu know, for me i know if that is a college staying. a college degree would have helped me? i don't know. but i definitely know that in my situation having a college degree would have given me a lot of debt. host: how old are your children? caller: my youngest is 26. host: did you pay for college? caller: he is getting some assistance for college. she has been in college on and off.

she has gone to college and been in the workforce, but she is getting assistance. i think that there is a real problem with the cost of college. dress -- why to a is it so expensive? trisha, we are going to try to break it down here throughout the show. talk to different people, get different perspectives on why it costs so much. melvin, maryland, what are your thoughts? caller: hi. i think that for the most part the biggest problem we are having is that you are taking in a high cost for college and the jobs you get out of it are generally not jobs that will pay back those student loans. and then you have got, on top of that there is a significant amount of time. if you look at the stats a lot of college students are not actually getting out in that four-year timeslot that they used to as well.

are talking about five years in many instances. -- what do yout: --host: what do you do for a living? the federalrk for government. many of my friends have masters degrees, and they don't have jobs. or if they do, they are egregiously unemployed. host: karen says this -- take a look at the debt surge. "the wall street journal" at this graphic together. more borrowers are turning to federal programs that cap and ultimatelys offer loan forgiveness. this is the median graduate theol that level owed by typical borrower upon graduation in $2012.

if you get a law degree, look at your debt load in 2012 compared to what it was in 2004. a doctor of medicine, 100 $35,000 debt compared to 100 3000 in 2004. master of science, 36,000 in 2012 versus 32,000 in 2004. master of arts you are looking at a debt of $43,000 versus, well, 28,000 in 2004. a master of education in 2012, you are looking at a debt of 35,000 dollars. in 2004 it was $27,000. a master of business administration, 36,000 dollars in debt in 2012 versus $33,000 in 2004. david, upper marlboro, maryland. postgraduate to -- postgraduate degree. was it worth it? out of theot military five years ago and quickly found there was a glass

haveng for folks who don't specific job trades with extensive amounts of experience. so, i decided to pack my bags and go back to school. i was quickly absorbed into my community of kind of knowledge and my marketability went up drastically. so. host: right, patrick, d c, college graduate, is college worth it? caller: absolutely. host: why? caller: it has allowed me to do what i wanted to do. i did not have student loans when i graduated. i believe a big part of it is looking at it as an investment. now it does not pay off as well as it used to. student loans for low paying job , that is probably not a great

investment if you want to be financially independent early in your life. you might look at other forms of technical training, computer networking, something like that, if that is your goal. if you have your college education paid for, that is a great opportunity to do what you want, become an artist or something, where the money you make is less guaranteed. that is more of a looking at it like an investment whereas in the past it was seen as a given. to your an investment, point, skipping college can cost you $800,000 -- from slate.com.

a study fromt from the federal reserve bank in san francisco. is college worth it to you? maryland,e plains, postgraduate degree. john, what do you think? caller: i have to mirror what patrick says. the second part was to my g.i. bill benefits. now i am seriously considering pushing my kids towards some kind of technical

degree or working on scholarships, because the economy is not going to support jobs that will pay back debt. host: how old are your kids? caller: eight and 10. host: are you saving for college? caller: yes, we are, but i am trying to cover all the bases, look at scholarships, saving money, encourage them to find out what they are interested in thoroughly so that we can both look at their interests and look at the most economical, beneficial line of work or investment we are saving for. the economy is not supporting income the campaign back past college debt. it goes up and up every year, it is ridiculous. is more important? saving for retirement or college? zero-sumt is not a

something, you have to focus on both. you have to make decisions that are going to support both your educational aspirations and your retirement needs. because everybody knows that your retirement dollars don't go anywhere near as far as you think they are going to go. pressure inso much our political landscape now to undo and find benefit pensions that are almost nonexistent now. the stock market, it is a crapshoot. if everything is in the stock market, you don't know what you will have. all right. this e-mail is from alan. alex in fairfax, virginia, with a high school degree, what do you think? caller: i think a college degree is still necessary, certainly. i think that definitely the

message that we are all given from children, that it is important to get your education and stay in school is correct, but in a sense we are under emphasizing and falling behind the rest of the civilized world and developed world in terms of tuition. most of the industrialized world -- i don't think anywhere in the industrialized world has tuition as high as the united states. i think that as americans we need to be demanding policies to back up the messages they are sending to our children, that education is important and we need to be working seriously and, frankly, taking emphasis programs, like defense spending, so that we can bring our social services, like education and health care, to a level that keeps up with the rest of the industrialized world. thank you. jones, story from mother "democrats plan to use elizabeth warren's student loan bill

against gop in november." "democratic strategists think that her legislation, reducing the bills of millions of americans by hundreds of thousands of dollars per year could help to turn out young people who tend to vote for democrats. thatf americans say student loan debt is a major issue for them. democrats plan to hold a vote on her bill or a version of it in early june and hold republicans who vote against it accountable ." senator blumenthal, cosponsoring this legislation, came to the floor yesterday to talk about it. [video clip] >> i am proud to join my toleagues in an effort reassess refinancing of student

loans. we cannot forget about current graduates with existing debt. as much as we want to make more aid available through pell grants, lower interest rates on loans being made right now, opportunities to seek paying down those loans based on public service, more disclosure and more accurate disclosure through the kinds of measures that senator franken has introduced. i will join him. but right now, we can take this profoundly significant step b supporting a measure that enables refinance of student everyone has the benefit of the best, lowest, most affordable interest rate. blumenthal, on the floor yesterday, talking about this student loan legislation he is cosponsoring with elizabeth moran. the bill is expected to come to

the floor of the senate early in june. related to this, a story from "the washington times" on the housing market. "the nations battered housing market is faltering again."

"the atlanta on their housing market -- the metro area sinceosures, the lowest 2002. "expert protections that mortgage rates would climb to 30% this year have not come true and the housing market is taking full advantage of the delay." so, that is a different story from "the chicago tribune" this morning. morning,r news this the front page of "the ."ar-ledger new video shows the captive nigerian girls dressed and praying as muslims as captives release new threats -- as terrorists release new threats.

this video from the white house saying no reason to question the authenticity of it. there will be hearing about this terrorist group before the senate foreign relations at 10tee on thursday a.m.. of that one coverage c-span three. we told you about the senate forward onot going energy efficiency bill. tied up and that was a vote on the climate change regulation that was brought down in the senate yesterday. this is a section of the new york times that has a piece about the keystone pipelines.

" an amendment to

its permit without much trouble to expand capacity to 800 barrels per day with more big plans to expand its transit mountain pipeline to more than 800,000 barrels per day and the projects totaled 3 million barrels per day of extra pipeline capacity, much more than the 700,000 barrels per day of capacity the canadian producers would require." keystoneey say the pipeline is needed. on benghazi, an update on those investigations -- here is "the washington times." a new date has been set for john kerry to testify about benghazi. the oversight and government reform committee had subpoenaed the secretary of state to but the twoay 21, have gone back and forth and they are trying to come up with a new day. on that select committee, democrats opened another front

of attack yesterday, with "representative john lewis calling on a fellow georgian to step down saying he cannot be fair because he helps republicans raise money." that is lynn westmoreland, deputy chairman for the national committee. ." to our topic. what do you think? good morning. -- caller: good morning. she graduated high school in 1992.

late mother's motto is to live within your means. why should the taxpayers be subsidizing other people? kids that are not academically qualified, the standards this morning are not for they were 40 years ago. bill, connecticut, post graduate degree. was it worth it? caller: it is bloated, their feathering their own nests, ok? like in connecticut, 60% on average of these budgets go for education. they are educating the children. then they have to move down south to get a job.

because the education budget is overblown. they throw out the food before the report and i think it is overblown. salaries.cost here is this was put together by the chronicle for higher education, taking a look at full professors. columbia university, full professors average salary, two hundred 50,000 dollars. stanford university, 215 thousand dollars for a full professor. those are the top paid full universities, according to "the chronicle of higher education." they also put together the

university college presidents and how much they are making. it starts with some of the top college presidents. these are 2011 numbers, by the way. robert cymer, university of chicago, making $3.3 million. it goes all the way down to $400,000, two hundred thousand dollars, for these college university presidents. carol, ohio, that morning. husband and iy have high school degrees and we decided we wanted our kids to have college degrees, so we started saving in grade school. my son graduated from west liberty college with a music degree and a teaching degree.

having the teaching degree during 9/11, he was living in new york, he is still living in new york, but he got to work for new york state education making videos for teachers to teach. my daughter graduated from kent state university with a nursing degree and she has been a nurse ever since. she has a great job. she has had great jobs. she has a good job now. so, if you go into college, go into something that is a field that is -- that you will be working in. teaching, nursing, something like that. it's carol, you think worth it. how much did you save for your kids to go to college? caller: thousands and thousands. but we sacrificed, so that they would not have any loans. we felt that we could do it and we did do it. you -- d

caller: this was the time that college was not quite as expensive as now, and we were making the money at the end of when my husband was working. host: did you and your husband have enough for retirement to live off of? caller: we saved at the same time. we always saved. dakota --, and south doug, celtic otto -- doug, south dakota, is college worth it? caller: definitely. one thing about it -- it is the quality of the jobs. when i graduated 45 years ago, 69, i believe, i got to teach at a small teachers college in the state. i could never have done that without a graduate degree. i later went to work for the federal government and was able to start at a higher level. that enabled me to make more money over that time, if you will, but also i had a better , i selection. when i retired

was able to find a job as a local history museum director. i could not have had that job without that degree. that adds up to something like 37, 38 years, none of which would have been possible without a graduate degree. guest: host: all right --host: all right, doug. from twitter -- dana, you are nuts if you think you're going to tax me .o pay someone else's degree she is referring to student loan programs run by the federal government. of "usaion section today," the paper's opinion is --

"mitch daniels, a republican, and the former federal budget director, he has done this now for three years in a row. there is no secret sauce, just sensible pruning that would be ordinary in the business world but seems to be alien in academia, where a steady flow of federal aid ensures students at any price -- never mind that they are left mired in debt that will never be repaid, burdening the students, their families, taxpayers, and the economy at the same time."

" hurley, at the american association for college universities, writes the transferview -- states costs to the students. states have been and is investing from their higher education systems, with families picking up more of the tab, institutions have the first turn at reducing spending, raising tuition prices to maintain academic quality. the best way to mitigate future leaderss is for state to reinvest in public higher education." that is the opinion representing state colleges and universities around the country. that is "usa today" editorial section today. keeping your thoughts on college this morning -- is it worth it? we have divided the lines of bit differently. you can send us a tweet or an e-mail, post your comments on facebook as well.

first, abby livingston, a staff writer for "roll call" joins us this morning to talk about election 2014. i want to begin with north carolina and what happened there. clay aiken, who was in a razor contests with congressional candidate keith crisco, some shocking news out of that race yesterday. abby livingston, what happened? we were floored. clay aiken was running in a democratic primary. his opponent's was keith crisco. aiken tot expect clay win last tuesday. we expected crisco to defeat him. it was very narrow and they were in the process of counting these 300,000 -- 300 something votes and keith crisco passed away

yesterday, reportedly at his house. it took the world by storm. my colleague reported that crisco was in the process of conceding and it kind of took everyone by a major shock. host: where does this leave the race, then? caller: can you repeat that? host: where does this leave the race? caller: it would appear that clay aiken is going to be the nominee. this will not be contested, as the candidate is no longer alive . broadly speaking, this is a very safe republican seat. this is drawing for the republicans. she should be safe for reelection, but as we learned in the primary, you cannot underestimate the name identification of someone like clay aiken. he is probably more famous -- more famous than the current republican incumbent. this tweet yesterday from

clay aiken -- suspending all campaign activities as we pray for crisco's family and friends." so, there is a primary contest today and nebraska and west virginia. that's the and with the nebraska gop primary. who is running? who's leading headed into the voting? there are three candidates. the first is an academic, president of midland university, he is running as a simple conservative, the tea party, he has had the backing of groups like club for growth, who have worked heavily against his rivals. the second candidate's name is shane osborn, who came on the international scene in 2001. an aviator who was piloting a plane that was struck down early in the bush administration near china and was held hostage. later he was named one of people's sexiest men alive. the third candidate is

[indiscernible] , who has been kind of off the .adar their allies have been beating each other into a pulp and there is now a perceived opening for candidate in the group, but most teale are predicting the party candidate prevailing, but no one is too confident of that. host: how are washington politics playing out in this race? caller: the tea party groups were not all aligned early on, but then they consolidated behind the antiestablishment candidate. if he comes to the senate, many be seen as a troublemaker, that is what i am guessing most people are looking at this and thinking. there is a piece here that this is a test for mitch said,ell, because as you

they are criticizing -- touting the endorsement of ted cruz and at the same time criticizing mitch mcconnell with more established candidates saying -- we will stick with mitch mcconnell. my colleague, alexis levinson, has been following this closely, writing yesterday that it is perceived that mitch mcconnell is tacitly behind shane osborn, the former straight -- former state treasurer and navel 80 -- naval aviator. host: let's go on to the west virginia primaries. what is happening there? there are a lot of different primaries. walk us through them. the biggest is the west virginia second, house seat currently occupied by shelley moore. she is expected to cruise

through her nomination. she did nott endorse, she decided to stay out of that fight, leaving a total vacuum. there are seven candidates in all. most of very disorganized. it feels a bit like the state legislature race. but one candidate in particular, alex moody, just a couple of years ago he was the rare -- was the maryland republican chairman. he has since moved across state lines and started running for this seat and he is running an organized, well-funded campaign. it is potentially possible that the former gop chairman could help -- could hold this house seat in west virginia. way, you can follow her reporting at "rollcall." thank you very much. caller: the you for having me. host: we are asking you to weigh

in this morning on whether or not college is worth it. -- marianne,t are what are your thoughts this morning? i agree with the prior lady that called. i had a definite plan in mind with my first child, who was working in the library, i got my bachelors of arts and i wanted to pursue that professionally. and then i got my library science degree. but it was the 1970's. i got a heads up on it. the ba from hunter college of that time was free. i know it is harder these days for people. i would say that two-year colleges are great for people who have an idea of wanting to maybe study what they want to do. and education is priceless, as they used to say on those credit card things. you never regret your educations. one of the best things i always -- i ever did in my life. iq.

"bloomberg businessweek," week,rticle from last "the $10,000 bachelors degree arrives."

host: evan, san francisco, is college worth it? you do get well-rounded and get exposure into different fields. but we do have a lot of difficulty finding jobs these days. with a stem degree in physics. so did many of my friends. there just isn't the opportunity. host: what kind of jobs that were available to you previously are not available today? for instance -- academic

track jobs. going into education. especially at the college level. it seems that those have dried up and that colleges are really care during more to hiring lecturers than professors. just showing our viewers this from the chronicle of higher education, the cost of full professors. how does that break down? a full professor at columbia university makes over 200 thousand dollars per year. how is that professor different from maybe yourself and how you would be hired and get paid? from myi can only speak experience and talking to professors that i have had and came into contact with, who were not at the level of those institutions, but at the same time they are very well educated people who struggle to get by.

even though those jobs are still out there, more and more are deferring to lecturers and offering them very paltry salaries by comparison. all right. take a look at this map. this is where the average student loan burden is the largest. the states in red? 25,000. looks liketates, only one, where it is less than $18,000, ranging from there, with most states in that yellow color, student loan debt $22,000 to $25,000. douglas, new york, college graduate, your thoughts? ibm'er i am a retired from years ago, i lost my job but was fortunate enough to retire. i have two kids that just got done with four years of school. they are now getting their

graduate degrees. what i am trying to do is give them some input as to what is going on out there as far as costs. huge burdens on families are commonly known, but a lot of the problem is the fact that there is so much in the unsubsidized loans. while these kids are in school, all of this interest is piling up. people cannot afford to pay. , there are at least 100,000 dollars in loans that they will have to borrow because they are considered adults when they get graduate degrees. schools have to plan just for their graduates. it is not subsidized -- i really advocate the fact that these loans need to be all subsidized to give these kids a break. we arehat is where turning our attention next. student aid, how does it work, the different programs out there. before we get to that, quick

headlines to let you know what else is in the paper -- timothy geithner, out with a new book, writing a piece in the opinion page -- opinion pages of "the wall street journal." discussing the decisions they made being worth it in order to avoid the widescale collapse of the united states economy. front page of "usa today." "east ukraine declares independence." that is their top headline. they pledged to open a dialogue .ith pro-russian militants "the financial times" has this -- "west looks to broaden sanctions." we are looking to broaden sanctions according to the united states, european union, and u.k. countries.

ers second u.s. case of virus was found in florida. they found it in a 44-year-old man, a resident of saudi arabia, not an american. the public is not believed to be at risk, but earnings are being made and an abundance of caution is being advised. -- usa today,nge antarctic glaciers past the point of no return -- the headline on "the new york times." we are going to continue our conversation, as we said, looking at the price of college and whether it is worth it with a focus next on student loans. later, from the american association of state colleges and universities, they will be here to talk about the value of

a college degree in today's work environment. we will be right back. ♪ [video clip] >> you know, a lot of time you would say look, this is for background. you can attribute it to a white house source or something like that -- you can do that with five cameras. you can't just say i am giving you this for background, not for publication. >> that you refund background from the podium? >> sure. not a whole briefing -- let me just give you something on background so that you know it is coming. >> so quaint. madee fatal mistake that i -- this was in the weeds for our audience, but interesting to some of you, i did not put the restriction that we had at the state department -- it was not

available for live broadcast. use as partable for of the stories that you would produce, because the briefing is not the news of it. it is part of the way in which people gather information and testheir stories together, other stories, get other information, put together a comprehensive report and deliver it to consumers of news. >> i once had to do like 56 questions on -- what is universal health care? 98%? what about 96%? about one person? >> sounds vaguely familiar. >> 56 questions in one briefing. dave barry wrote a column about taking her out for beer and getting her to answer a question about universal health coverage. life of a white house press secretary and how it has changed over time.

sunday, 5 p.m. eastern, on c-span3. our conversation on the cost of higher education continues with michael stratford, federal reporter with "inside higher ed." let's focus on student aid, we have a lot of questions about that here when we started our question this morning. let's begin with student loans combat has been in the headlines lately. the amount of debt. how big is the problem right now? the numbers are staggering. $1.2 trillion in student loans, that is the headline grabbing number. more students are borrowing money to finance their higher education, 70% of students in the more recent graduating classes using loans. most of the loans now are federal loans compared to private loans.

they have some differences that are important for borrowers to know about. the one dollar chilean figure in the headline is pretty staggering. loans are now the largest form of consumer debt. they have surpassed credit cards, they have surpassed auto loans. "college graduate in student loan debt, 2012 numbers." so, why are more students taking on more debt? why is it the students? more students than ever are going to college. and the price has soared. it is more expensive, more

students are going, leading to that large aggregate number. when you look at the individual -- there are a lot of stories of students who have $100,000 in debt, these astronomical figures. when you look at the average debt load for a bachelors degree , of students who borrow, that is $29,400 -- which does not release where with this larger, six digit number that we hear about sometimes. while an aggregate, there is a lot of student loan debt out there, but the majority of students are borrowing debts that they can repay. there are a lot of different efforts in washington and elsewhere to try to get them to pay that debt back. where are they borrowing from? guest: most students are borrowing from the federal government. taxpayers are financing the

majority of our system. about $1.2 tree and is federal debt, held by taxpayers. the rest is private loans. those are held by banks, credit unions, other financial institutions. host: why are students choosing the federal government over private loans? ofst: they have a number advantages over private loans, typically. are more options flexible. you can enroll in repayment -- that tie your income cap your loan payments at your income. they technically have a fixed interest rate as opposed to a variable interest rate on private student loans? -- private student loans. they are typically easier to get. host: what is the default rate like? guest: default rates have been increasing over the years, the

goal for national downturns. the senate is likely to take up the legislation dealing with student loans in early june , sponsored by senator elizabeth warren and senator blumenthal. what with that legislation do? why are they pushing this issue? guest: they're pushing this issue because the topic of college affordability and issue of student debt has captured mainstream attention and, therefore, our representatives in congress want to capitalize on that. legislation would allow existing student loan borrowers, people with existing student debt, to refinance at lower interest rates. thea number of years interest rate on federal student loans for undergraduates was arou.8ound 6.8%. the current interest rate is percent. so, borrowers who are eligible

for this refinancing program lower theire to interest rate on existing loan debt. compare tooes that the overall number for credit? you are just going to get credit. how does the current interest rate compared to what other people can get? host: the interest rate is now tied to the 10 year treasury note. --guest: the interest rate is now tied to the 10 year treasury note. remember, two years ago there was a campaign where it was set to double in statute. on a bipartisan basis, congress 2012, kicking it down the road four-year, last year coming to a compromise in which the student loan interest rate is tied to the market. lastt is based on the

treasury auction before june, which just happened last week. student loan interest rates this year are going up. host: they are going up this fall. says thatney website it will get pricier the small tanks to congress, as you just explained. so, how do you go about getting a student loan from the federal government? you wante first thing to do is file the fafsa. it is a federal form that you can fill out online. it asks you a number of questions about your family situation, your income, your and through a somewhat complicated federal formula the government calculates with your estimated family contribution ought to be. from there you qualify -- well, you can qualify for a number of different federal student aid

options. for low income students, pell grant is an option, money from the federal government to go to college. obviously it is a grant, you don't have to repay it. loans,sidized student the government subsidizes the interest while you are still in school. those are need-based. so, if you qualify for subsidized loan, you can get that. for all student borrowers, they can borrow up to a certain amount for undergraduates -- actually, an unlimited amount for graduate students. host: we are dividing lines differently for this conversation this morning. host: we are taking a deeper dive into student aid and what it means for the cost of college in this company -- this country.

take a look at the average student loan debt. these numbers -- public colleges, the average student loan debt for public colleges, a little over $25,000. for private, nonprofit, 32,000 dollars. for-profit colleges, the average student debt is close to $40,000. all of these different programs for student loans from the federal government. there is one program, starting under the obama administration, i believe, for debt forgiveness. can you explain what that is? itt: it started in --guest: started in the 1990's, the first program that allowed you to tie your interest to your income and then have it forgiven after a certain amount of time. the obama administration made that program more generous and expedited it. how do you qualify for it,

first. guest: you have to demonstrate financial hardship. the statutory regulatory definition. basically, you submit an application to the federal government or your student loan servicer, the company managing your payments on behalf of the government. you submit an application, submit your taxes so that they and under theme program your monthly payment is cap as a percentage of your discretionary income. so, it is 150% above the poverty line. that income sets the cap on your payment. for some programs it is 15%, for other programs it is a 20% cap. excuse me -- for some it is 15%, for others it is 10%. depending on the program, your loans are forgiven in full by

the federal government after 20 or 25 years of continuous payments. if you continue to pay that for 20, 25 years, whatever is left, the government forgives? taxpayers are on the hook? guest: you do get hit with a tax amount,that forgiven but there is actually a debate happening in washington over how generous that program should be. we are a little bit too far out to know what the actual costs of that program are, they are relatively new and we have not seen a large number of borrowers hit that mark. but there is debate over whether these programs are properly structured so that they are not providing disproportionate , hight to high debt earning borrowers -- for instance, if you go to law

school or medical school and incur a large amount of debt, you are qualified for these programs, but your earning potential on the backend is pretty significant. over whetherbate they are providing to generous of benefit. to that point, the obama administration, while it has been touting these programs and the education department is trying to get more students enrolled, they are actually proposing in their budget to sort of trim around the edges and put a cap on the amount forgiven for some of these programs. host: is the figure around $60,000? undergraduate borrowing limit. are these popular programs? guest: they are popular with

consumer advocates and borrowers , but the uptick in the program has been somewhat slow. in the past few months, maybe half a year or so, the program has surged thanks to the administration's effort to publicize the program. they sent a bunch of e-mails to student loan borrowers with i think the current rate is around 11% of federal student loan borrowers are participating and this program. host: judy in maryland, go ahead. old, really old, past retirement, and when i was kids hadi think all different ways of earning money. everybody had a paper route. did babysitting.

they were mothers helpers. i grew up in a community that had a lot of academic institutions. there were seminaries in the major university and a couple of , undergraduate schools. but everybody was saving for college. for example, when you were five and my family, you got a penny for every year of age per week. if i was five, i got a nickel. we went to the bank to put in our money for our college fund. you saved your money for college , and that was an emphasis through childhood. in high school, everybody had jobsr jobs, not to mention through the school year for a few hours a week that would not

scores.e with your sat i had three friends that had double 800's when i was in high school. your ok, i think we have point. michael stratford was talking about how it was different back then. guest: yeah, it is more difficult for people to pay for college. 70%, seven and 10 students in the graduating class of 2012 had to take out loans to finance their education. they were not able to take advantage of their savings to work their way through college. they needed extra money. how muchm twitter -- student aid goes to for-profit colleges and what is their success rate? guest: that is a controversial topic in washington. i am not sure what the percentage of aid going to -- i

think it is around $40 billion in aid going to for-profit colleges every year. that is grants and loans. loans to theand universities? the for-profit universities, from where? guest: money for students to go there. many of those institutions, their revenues come from federal grants and loans that students are using from the federal government to finance their education. there is a very active debate about the proper role of for-profit education. theigher education look at obama administration has proposed new rules that set out for-profit,ld vocational programs, many at for-profit colleges, more accountable. and to income ratios

default rates for individual programs. host: college was worth it back when you could get a decent education. these days it is all job training. another tweed -- why has the price of college sword? how do colleges spend their budgets? guest: that is another controversial topic in higher education. a lot of people have criticized spending my colleges and universities as perhaps one of the factors that is driving up costs, whether that is administrative costs or facilities and the sort of advent and the past decade or more of more lavish living facilities, the climbing wall in the student union gym. so that is certainly an area

many people have criticized colleges and universities for not doing enough to hold that down. today"his is from "usa is says that the prices going up for students because states have gradually been dis-investing from their public higher education systems. true. that is certainly what we have seen over the past foreast five years and longer, states continually and in some cases very steeply cut disinvest from public higher education in their states most that has prompted public colleges and universities to have to increase tuition to compensate. and marilyn, recent graduate. where did you graduate from? caller: [indiscernible]

host: ok. do you have student loan debt? caller: yeah, sure. host: do you mind telling us how much? caller: slightly over $30,000. host: what are your thoughts? caller: [indiscernible] loans commercial percentagethe decreasing because of market forces. is not a commercial venture. i think maybe congress could cut in interest rates so that the lifetime of the loans, students will know exactly how much they will pay. paying until they died.

the program should be fixed so they know what they're going to pay at the end of the day. that is my opinion. host: ok. michael stratford, what did you hear from jimmy? guest: i think he referred to some of the differences we talked about between federal and private loans. the interest rate that is set every year tied to treasury, 10-year treasury notes, is actually fixed on the loan for the entire life of the loan. so students taking up undergraduate loans in the .urrent year will pay 4.66% that is the rate that was set last week. private student loans tend to have more variable rates, so the amount you are paying in interest can fluctuate. -- as we were talking about for both student loans, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to discharge them and bankruptcy. as we were saying, federal loans tend to have more flexible repayment options. host: states are no longer

funding colleges, this refers to our earlier conversation about the cost of college. -- remind me how much senator war in was -- to teacharren was paid one class and then explain why college is expensive. host: i do not know how much she was paid off the top of my head, but she is someone who came from academia. oft: but what about the cost professors and college presidents? guest: that has certainly been on the rise and an area where a lot of people have criticized higher education for the rising presidents, their sports coaches -- football coaches, as well as the number and amount of salaries for administrators. host: this says -- ask bill

gates or richard branson if colleges worth it. a recent graduate from georgia. where did you graduate from and with what degree? caller: east georgia state college, and i had to throw degrees -- two degrees. i want to continue my education at a four-your institution. my question is -- i was labeled as a dependent under my parents and plan not to be by the a time -- by the time i intend the four-year institution. what role does not being a dependent play in receiving those loans? did you go to community college? were you able to get loans for that? caller: yes, i did. host: how does it work? guest: the way the government

calculates need for dependent students, those who are isendent on their parents, different from the way the government calculates need for independent students. so the formula will be different , and the access that he has two different loans will be different. host: a question -- an e-mail from a viewer who is in sioux falls. it says i was in the national guard when i went to school, but i do not know if it was an advantage or not. i was an officer and aviator on active duty which carried over to my guard time. what role do programs offered by the merit -- by the military play in education costs? guest: the v.a. as the post-9/11 g.i. bill, and ministers that that provides educational benefits to veterans coming home from war to pursue

their higher education, and the pentagon also has a tuition assistance program that helps active duty service members take advantage of educational opportunities. ,ost: danny in birmingham alabama. caller: my wife went to a community college for nursing. of course, she was working. the reason for her going back to 55%ol was that she had lost of her income. so she went back to community college to go into the health field. in doing so, she failed college because she was having to work so hard and everything. anyway, what ended up happening was later when she was already enrolled, she found out that the

school was not offering the student loans. i tried to find out why and stuff like that, and it was kind of brushed to the side. i called her there was no way for her to get a student loan without the school purchase a participation. she is going to end of going back to school. she just recently graduated from the lpn. and and thersing medical field now, they are wanting people to get higher education to help out with the doctor shortage and stuff. host: all right. guest: federal student aid is only available to colleges that participate in the federal student aid program under title act. the federal education in order to be an institution where you can take your federal grants and loans and attend, the

institution has to do a number of things to get in the program and stay in the program. you have to be accredited. you have to have state approval. you have to meet a number of eligibility requirements sent out by the education department. they are also subject to regulation. a recent graduate from minneapolis, minnesota. caller: i got a degree in accounting with a concentration in public accounting. host: when you graduated, did you have student loan debt? do you still have it? caller: yes, $55,000. $40,000 was government. $15,000 was private. i am on the programmer you pay it off in 30 years. i will be 80-something by the time i pay it. i and -- and i am getting laid

off from a job in about three weeks and trying to look for a higher paying job. we are barely making it right now. i am wondering if they have any programs for the older people that went to college to not pay back, and i'm also a u.s. veteran. i paid $150 per course. host: did you go back to school recently? 2006, graduated in 2011. host: with an accounting degree? caller: correct. host: any programs for ron that you know of? guest: he is most likely eligible for some income based repayment. his situation is actually the norm now. the nontraditional aged student in higher education, those are not the majority of students who

are getting degrees. host: there is a story in the " christian science monitor" -- better path to a bachelor's. what is happening with community colleges and students going to community college first and then trying to transfer to a four-year school? guest: that is the path a lot of students take. community college tend to be far cheaper than other institutions of higher education. most students at those colleges do not have to borrow loans to finance their education. typically a pal grant often covers most of the tuition at those institutions -- a pell grant often covers most of the tuition at those institutions. it may not pay for living

expenses. community colleges are certainly cheaper options. article says students, especially minorities, are taking advantage of the good quality of community colleges, but they face hurdles when trying to transfer to a four-year school. why is that? host: you have to see that the school you are planning to transfer to will take your credits. that can be a very complicated situation that you probably want to work out on an individual basis given your current situation. host: ann in aurora, colorado. caller: i have an associates degree from a local community last year atin my the university of colorado, and most of my education has been paid for by academic scholarships and also help from my employer who pays a benefit of tuition, and the remaining us from myself. i recently read that student

bundled and put on the stock market and run derivative activity, just like the subprime mortgages were. and wall street has no interest in the worthiness of how large these loans are and whether they will be paid back mups assemblage to the mortgage thing. i have not heard anything about that reported in the news. i wonder if you have any knowledge about that or any comment about that? thank you. guest: the mortgage industry comparison to the private student loan market is a parallel that has been drawn by the consumer financial protection bureau and sort of urging students to take a hard look at whether they want to be borrowing private student loans which, as we have said, have less flexible repayment options,

are difficult to discharge in bankruptcy. beingloans may well be traded and securitized. federal student loans are not. host: why is college more expensive now? someone has to finance the college presidents rising cost of living, vacation home, and wine collection. brian from mississippi, recent grad. where did you graduate from and what did you focus on? caller: undergrad at bridgewater college, nutrition. now i am at ole miss getting my masters in nutrition. i took a year off in between. getting a bachelors does not necessarily prepare you for a job here at a lot of employers are expecting to train new grads . when you go into an interview, they want to know what you can do to figure out what they have to do with you. mean fort does that

you then with a nutrition degree? do anything with nutrition the cut i have to take courses through an accredited body. when i finish, i have to apply and be accepted into a 1200-hour internship. it is a lot more difficult than people think. if i come out of this without that internship, than my degree is essentially useless. host: how much have you pay for undergraduate and how much will you pay for this graduate degree? caller: undergraduate was about $30,000. i think the interesting thing about that is my debt increases by five dollars each day just because of the interest. freenately, my tuition is and i get a living stipend, but at the same time i have to work 20 hours a week through the school and then they expect me

to intern. that is very difficult when i am in graduate classes and working over 20 hours per week. host: what did you hear from that caller? guest: the challenges of working while going to school is certainly something a lot of students face. there is research to suggest that after a certain amount of work each week, there are diminishing returns and it can impede your likelihood that you will complete your program which is another sort of challenge or problem with student debt. students who go to institutions take on debt and do not graduate with a credential. in huntsville, alabama, recent graduate. did you go to school in alabama? caller: yes, alabama a&m

university. i got my graduate to agree in social work. host: are you employed? caller: no, i am not. it is difficult in social work because you have to be licensed. i just got out of school and was focusing on school, so now i have to go back and try to focus on getting this licensure now. host: in student loan debt, do you have it? orler: yes, about $80,000 $90,000. host: four-year undergraduate degree? caller: for both. able to pay that back? how much is your monthly bill? caller: i have not started yet. i just recently graduated two weeks ago. i do not know what my bill will be. i planned on jumping right back

into school. i wanted to know, are there programs -- i know they have programs for teachers, but do they have programs for other professions? host: to forgive your loan if you do some sort of public service? caller: yeah. guest: there is a public service loan forgiveness program that is one of the income-based repayment programs or income-sensitive repayment to thes that are similar other types of programs which capsee monthly payment -- your monthly payment to your income. host: this is from twitter -- many of the developed nations provide free or near free college education. why don't we? how does college price compared to other countries in student loan debt? guest: it is more expensive to

go to college here and students are taking out more debt here. there are some innovative ways to pay for it. there are student financing systems that other countries have. in this country we call them pay it forward where your student loan debt is paid up front and comes out of your paycheck on the backend. there are a few states here that are experimenting with that, but it has not really caught on. host: michael stratford with inside higher education. thank you for your time. but look at college education in the u.s. continues with barmak nassirian. in value of a college degree today's work environment. later, we will talk to charlie cook of the national review on his recent article -- drop the dropout -- which examines the

societal push towards getting a college degree even in the face of questionable returns that it reduces but we will get to that after this news update from c-span radio. >> arguments are scheduled today before a three-judge federal appears court panel in richmond virginia in a closely-watched same-sex marriage case. the lower court judge threw out virginia's dan in february. the u.s. circuit court of appeals also covers three other states with similar laws. north carolina, south carolina and west virginia. in beijing, china today, u.s. treasury secretary jacob lew pressed china to the ease it's exchange-rate controls and lower barriers to trade and investment. should,y lew says china in his words, demonstrate a renewed commitment to move to a more market determined exchange rate. meeting with is chinese economic officials. finally, two new service find that small businesses do have

more optimism but not enough for taking more risks. surveys by wells fargo and bank of america find many small-business owners still have conservative hiring plans and not much interest in borrowing money. the increasing optimism is fueled by stronger revenue and cash flow. the surveys are online with other recent reports that show owners' confidence is slowly improving. some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> c-span's newest book "sundays at 8:00," a collection of interviews with some of the top storytellers. >> i have been living it all my life. migrated from the south to washington, d.c. my mother from georgia. my father from southern virginia . they met in washington, married, and had me. without the migration, i would not be here. i do not know who you would be talking to.

i have lived with it all my life. i grew up with people from north carolina, south carolina, georgia, all around, and i was surrounded by the language for the food, the music, the ambitions of the people who migrated from the south. a lot of competition about whose child would go to which school, catholic schools, the school across the park. it has been with me all this time. voices from unique 25 years from our book notes and q&a conversations. published by public affairs books, now available at your favorite bookseller. for over 35 years, c-span brings but that's public affairs events from washington directly to you, putting you in the remake congressional hearings, white house events, briefings, and conferences, and offering complete gavel-to-gavel coverage of the u.s. house, all as a public service of private industry. we are c-span, created by the cable tv industry 35 years ago

and brought to you as a public service by your local cable or satellite provider. watch us in hd, like us on facebook, and follow us on twitter. "washington journal" continues. host: we're back with barmak director for federal policy analysis at the american association of state colleges and universities. let's begin with aascu. who do you represent? publicepresent about 420 four-year institutions across the u.s. been asking our viewers -- is college worth it west -- worth it? what do you think? has beenstorically it worth it. the median income for college graduates in this country today stands at twice the median income for individuals who do not have a college degree. so historically it is worth it. is it worth it in every instance for everybody no matter where

they go or what they major in and what they do? that is a hard question to answer. but certainly, on the basis of past performance, one has to believe it is a good economic investment. host: why is the trend for the cost of college aboard and has been going back to the 1980's? guest: yes, we are on a three-decade-long inflationary spiral that seems to have no and itod times and bad, is very difficult analytically to understand. there are multiple causalities wrapped up with each other. there is no question that in the case of the public-sector, we are better than 70% of all -- where better than 70% of all enrollments are, the states have significantly reduced their for public institutions. consequently, institutions have

shifted those costs to students. host: is that the only reason? are numerousere other reasons. there is no question that the activity itself is a cuyler because it is extraordinarily labor-intensive. you know -- the activity itself is peculiar. with the automation, it is to reduce costs. in the case of colleges, when we spend money on computers, we actually end up hiring more expensive labor. we have to look at the product typically -- productivity gain. the activity might not be acceptable to increase productivity like in manufacturing. there is also administrative flow, no question. we need to think about college in a much more expansive way than most of us do, because we do not simply teach people. we are your landlord. we are your police force, your internet provider, your telephone company, and your health-care provider in many

instances. there are enormous regulations and requirements associated with every one of those activities, and those have driven administrative costs up enormously over the past three decades. is the "usa today" view, the editorial board -- perdue has decided for the third year in a row to freeze in-state tuition for the 2015-26 school year. why can't other universities do this? or we we could do this could legislate free tuition if we wanted. the challenge here is that what you are buying is a future experience when you sign up for college. fast very easy to have file political solutions, and i am not suggesting purdue is necessarily of the category.

producedan be regardless of real costs, but keep in mind that there are consequences down the road. it remains to be seen whether all of the college cost escalation is due to profligacy of it is, whether some legitimate and necessary if you want to retain the quality. the concern with regard to particularly public-sector tuitions is that they are so subject to political oversight and mandates from above that the public sector is gradually eroding in this country. that should be a concern for everybody who plans to take advantage of public institutions. host: this is from the "chronicle of higher education" -- it looks at college presidents' salary. $3.3 million in 2011 for robert zimmer at the university of chicago. goes down from there. why does the university pay a

present in three point -- a president $3.3 million? guest: i am a big advocate of gigantic executive salaries, and most of those are concentrated in the private nonprofit sector and not in the public sector where the legislatures would not tolerate that kind of compensation for ceo's. and if you think that is too high, take a look at coaches and salaries that various officials that for-profit institutions have. one of them was paid $40 million in one year. so maybe the president at the university of chicago is getting -- giving us a bargain at $3.3 million. why are you getting this and the corporations pay their executives? the argument is always that the person comes with skills that enhance the outcomes for the

university and that we need to pay for talent. host: the american association of state colleges and universities, you say state governments were not put up with that. if the colleges you represent tried to pay their presidents that kind of money -- why not? talk about the role that state governments play and how they can regulate and oversee state colleges and universities. institutions are strange creatures. twoimultaneously serve masters who are in constant conflict with each other. we serve the public that funds us and the policy community that tends to cover us in terms of funding -- govern us in terms of mandates and instructions that you see politically as to how to do business. that is entirely appropriate when it comes to matters that are strictly administrative or financial. we should be accountable and we accept that accountability. on the other hand, to the extent

that we are colleges and universities, we do have an obligation to such abstract notions as the advancement of learning and the spread of knowledge. consequently, those two sometimes come in conflict with each other. you do not want to put a lot of -- you do not want to have the issue of whether evolution should be taught along with or for a political determination, most of us can say that should be reserved for the faculty whose life's calling .as been to study the merit so the reason we respond to from the state policymakers, because they are funding us. we do have an obligation to be responsive. i think most of state legislatures would find a $3.3 million salary for an executive

at a public institution unacceptable. host: what about the federal government and the role they play with policies and regulations and what comes out of congress on public, state colleges and universities? guest: the federal government does not really make a distinction in terms of its encounter from its various programs between public versus private nonprofit or, for that matter, private for-profit institutions. most of the federal intervention when it comes to college affordability is a function of various kinds of federal aid. you have the bulk of those programs within the department of education. federal student aid programs, grants, work-study, loans. you have other agencies within the federal government, including particularly now the veterans administration with educational benefits of the g.i. bill and then the department of

defense which has a very sizable tuition assistance program. that is the way the federal government interacts with us, and the federal government has historically tended to prevent funding without provisions that may strike a lot of people as common sense. policy mayin federal be contributing to tuition hikes. host: we're talking with barmak nassrian, the director of federal policy at the american association of state colleges and universities. we want to get you involved. if you have a high school degree, call 202-585-3880. college degree, 202-585-3881. postgraduate degree, 202-585-3882. first call from washington, d.c., high school degree. caller: i have a daughter who will be attending marshall university in the fall. she was accepted to nine

universities, private and public. we visited all of the universities, and we compared the annual school costs, room and board, and everything. out of all of them, we chose marshall because it is a public school and also, the tuition and what you got for your money was so worth it, and also the name recognition. but when you look at the private schools, no type of rate -- name recognition and they charge $42,000 a year. i was flabbergasted and when i asked my fellow employees are my family, i would say -- do you know this university? and they would say i have never heard of it. but the cost to go there is so high. to marshallown university where you get a really big thing for your buck -- you get a really big bang for

your buck. and since my daughter is a resident, she qualifies for it d.c. pay, a program for kids who live in washington, d.c., to tuition that in-state because we are not a state and we do not have a large university public base here. that is a great program. this is a learning process and i enjoyed every minute of it. host: sounds like it. how many schools did you visit? caller: eight schools. host: private and public. we will have our guest talk about the difference in price. she's talking about a private school that has very little name recognition but is charging triple what she was going to pay for at marshall. of all, wet, first have to be wary of averages here , but i will give you the averages. you are looking at an average

annual tuition and fee cost two-year for a institution at about $3200 nationally. at about $8,900 for public four-year in-state. public four-year out of state. 30,000 dollars for private nonprofit. about $15,000 for for-profits. year.s per these are averages, and there is enormous regionalism in this country. if you look at a public in-state, it can be an astonishing bargain in places that may strike some people as surprising. the two most affordable states are wyoming and alaska, at about -- most expensive is new hampshire and vermont which have almost privatized their public

higher ed system. pushingte is almost $20,000 a year despite the fact that it is a public institution. so there is enormous variability by region. i found the comment interesting because the judgment families a verynds to be complicated mix up perceptions -- mix of perception the prestige, investment, and perceptions of cost that may not be accurate. it is true that there are nominal published prices, but higher and financing is a discount business -- but higher ed financing is a discount business. ands very obscure, opaque, very confusing for families. all kinds of counterintuitive results are possible. the most expensive institutions in this country may be some of the least expensive if you can

get in because of their financial aid practices. ort: if a private school public school is offering a college education per year for $20,000 or more, what is the likelihood that most of the students pay that $20,000 or more per year? guest: almost zero. the vast majority of students receive some kind of offsetting aid. a nominalhere is price and that price tends to be generally some able, based on resources and financial wherewithal. but it is also true that the majority of students receive offsetting aid. host: how are the universities making up the difference? guest: it is a very complicated and difficult system to navigate . they make it up through a series of cross-subsidies. in the case of the public, obviously there is the state

subsidy that comes in to offset the cost. simultaneously, by the way, there are revenues from out-of-state. people generally get all upset are they realize that there out-of-state students are presumably taking up seats that could go to their son or their daughter or somebody they know, and they do not realize that the reason public institutions a licit out-of-state students or, for that matter, international , is partially academics, partially diversity. you do not want a college that looks just like your high school. you want a mixture of people from different laces, people from across the country and the world. but there is also a very strong financial reason. there are cross subsidies there. in the case of private, the biggest distinction is the size of their endowments.

tiny institutions that have enormous endowments and have the and have thets gold standards of admissions and financial aid practices which used to be the norm in this country. they have need-based aid. in the golden age of higher ed when we do not have as many people attending college, the admissions office did not look at your finances and simply look at your academics. if you were admissible, you were admissible. the university committed itself to closing the gap, whatever that was, based on your income. increasingly, those two functions are getting, gold -- getting coming gold. you cannot have an open check book that you do not know what the reliabilities are. but it has consequences should

your admission to college be a function of your dad's checking account. most of us find that probably little problematic. myers, florida, college graduate. caller: good morning, and thank you for c-span. i have a son who has got a masters degree in economics. he teaches at a community college here and he has taught there for about six years. $1500 for teaching his class, and he does not complain about it. but to me when i think of it, i thought the amount of work he puts in, it does not seem to have the right relationship between what maybe the president of the community college make spirits of that is the point i would like to have addressed. host: ok. guest: john is right. american higher education, in response to financial pressures

and in recognition of the fact cost driver was perceived to be salaries -- and that is correct, more than 70% of our expenditures are for salaries. they made a choice some decades ago to move away from permanent full-time, tenured faculty in the direction of what used to be a footnote to our hr practices, mainly adjunct. ll employees.at-wi they have graduate degrees. many of them have doctorates. but they have no job security. they tend to be the equivalent of the migrant workers of american higher ed of whom we increasingly depend for service delivery. any are convenient from administrative point of view because you do not make a monetary 10 meant meant to them the way you do to a tenured

faculty member. are probably being exploited, and john's example is not unique. $1500 is, of course, possibly less than minimum wages do you factor in everything. that there, we know job status of adjuncts has a direct impact on the success of their students. consequently, we need to do something about this. there is no question that the ed istification of higher a huge problem. host: adjunct staff make up 70% of the cost? more than 70% of the cost in higher ed is hr related, to people. the phd's are the most expensive, so let's begin cutting away at permanent

faculty and shift to adjuncts. that process has basically .eached a logical conclusion at many institutions, the first two-your general education courses tend to be overwhelmingly taught by adjuncts. studentstwitter -- do need to be proactive and creative when getting decrease? guest: that is a true statement. the question is how reasonable is it for us to demand excessive creativity and excessive knowledge? that is one of the problems. in the case of traditional ed, and the vast majority students are no longer your typical 17-year-old an 18-year-old recent college grad moving into a residential setting. that continues to be the image we have of college students.

in the case of traditional aged students, the idea of making sure they have the information they need before they make the choices they do, very appealing but extremely difficult to carry out. one of the fundamental problems we have, this is still somebody who has not had any experience with consumer credit. -- and manybody instances, the basis of their judgment and the choices they make is not necessarily academic rigor or labor market consequences. they are buying the food in the cafeteria and the athletic facilities. that is the reason that colleges , responding to consumer behavior, are in such a race for amenities. apartments and dormitories and

fate downtowns and sushi in the cafeteria in some -- ends up d faculty.uying tenure host: next call. theer: i wanted to address situation of the evolution of the requirement for education. back in 2007 one i graduated from high school, if i did not go to college, i was not going to get a job. i go to college and get my bachelors of science. while i am there, they tell me if i do not have a masters, i will not get a good job here and now i am completing my masters. i am currently working on my phd. now i am on c-span having a conversation about this. what about somebody who has invested seven years in post high school education to say now, his college even worth it? host: what is your that

situation like? caller: yeah, i have accumulated a lot of debt over the years. right now i am at $75,000 and almost have three degrees. my phd is through scholarships. host: what about job prospects for you? currently teaching to my phd program so i would like to pursue that as well. my phd is in chemical oceanography so i am a water scientist. water there is a lot of out there, that is for sure. i think the point does bear some consideration. college did not used to be justified on the basis of labor market outcomes. college used to be in the abstract. and when very few people went to college, it was edification and the advancement of knowledge,

learning for the sake of learning. well, you know, that was a long time ago. the fact is college began to become a precondition for certain kinds of employment, and there really is a valid point here that we may have inflated expectations of the employment community which, by the way, is very dissatisfied with the quality of the graduates they get. every poll indicates that colleges are very happy with what they produce and employers are generally very unhappy with the caliber of outcomes that they encounter when they hire college graduates. but we have created a system in which there is a race without a finished, it seems, in some cases, where credentials and expectations keep driving up demand and that needs to be

factored in. need the level of credentialing associated with certain jobs. host: steve is a college graduate in st. paul, minnesota. caller: thank you, c-span, for having such an important discussion. i am calling to find out if we can address the discrepancy incomesmedium -- median and the cost of college to my because when governor brown was inaugurated for the second time after 35 years, the chronicle today then and now. and the 35 years, the cost of the uc system went up by a 13 or 14 and the median income in california only went up by a factor of three. there is a huge disconnect the twin what people make and what the cost of college is -- a huge

disconnect between what people make in with the cost of college is. guest: that is central to understanding the $1.2 trillion aggregate outstanding educational debt figure that everybody is concerned about. this is true here inflation-adjusted college costs have escalated faster and higher than medical expenses in this country. health care has its own inflation problem and comes in second to college cost inflation. median incomes have not done so well. if you look at median incomes today, they are $5,000 below where they were in 1999. so we have actually regressed to some extent over the past few years, mostly because of the financial crisis. that the kind of accumulation of wealth and resources that would have occurred if incomes had kept

pace with inflation and outstripped it in a reasonable way would be available to pay for college expenses -- of those there when theot child or person has to go to college. consequently, that cap is being filled with loans. the $1.2 trillion figure could betweenas the gap inflation-adjusted incomes and inflation-adjusted college costs. ,ost: david is in kentucky college graduate. caller: the public support for these loans in things like this is dwindling for numerous reasons. that the kids nowadays, they have a gimme gimme attitude. the kids at the latest phones and cars but they are crying about the cost of everything else. as the guy said, when the get

out of college, are they really prepared to work? them think life is just a free lunch, and it really is not. the idea of living it up on other people's money for college just seems like -- people are just disenchanted with the youth of america today. their work standard is crummy. host: what do you do for a living? caller: graphic design, self-taught. i was in the navy and electronics. it does not correlate to my field. to learn -- that is another thing, the navy teaches you exactly what you need to know for your job and nothing else. to go to a need four-year liberal college. they may need to go to a trade school and learn a specific job. if that does not work out ok you can always do something else. but at least get something under your belt, not just this general blanket of information that is ok but not really the best thing

for what you are best suited for. not everyone is going to be the president of the company. some people just have to work there. host: all right. this is a tweet -- last year we discussed the fact that 50% recent grads had no job or job not in their major field. is that still the case? guest: yeah, the 50% figure describes a combination of unemployment and underemployment . and certainly for the last several graduating classes, it has been a very difficult job market for obvious reasons. --what goodr tweet is a liberal arts education? guest: ironically and surprisingly, a liberal arts education into handing out over the long haul. we see hyper specialized degrees that become all the rage in response to whatever trends may be set by the labor market.

we saw this throughout the late 1990's were certified engineers were in enormous demand and everybody was working to produce more certified network engineers. that the labor market does not always look long term. if something gets hot, you immediately focus on producing more graduates in that narrow field. and when the trend changes, you in dublin lots of unemployment upat was entirely -- you end with lots of unemployment that was entirely unexpected. i want to make a quick point about the comment on young people not having work ethic and living off of other people's support. i do not know that that is culturally fair to say about young people. but there's one thing i can assure your viewers of, we have ended up transforming federal

financing, federal loans, , and instudent loans most instances they are no longer financial aid. they are really nothing than financing. this includes enormous sums of money. so if using young people are living fat off the hog or are notg supported, they are doing that. we are indenting them with loans a carried interest rates that are way above what is needed to offset the costs. and the federal government, just so you know, the grant and work and loan programs were more than offset by projected revenues from student loans. host: how much are we talking about? guest: depends on who you talk to. we have official cost estimates. forecastinge is

future interest costs. he can be as high as $168 billion for the net present value of the loan to go out the gate between 2013 and 2023. host: what the government is making off of student loan interest? correct. caller: i am working towards my financen economics and a grand canyon university. i do all of my work online. i have never had a problem as far as financial aid is concerned. -- i realized that people ask the school to do the financial aid research for them. that is one mistake i never made. i did that myself. to learn more. i would like to get more information about the

specializations. i was always told that industries nowadays are not looking for just a broad degree. they want more than that. they want a specialization of some sort. i'm not sure exactly what it requires. it could be anything. for an economics major it is a very broad field. when it comes down to things what wouldlization, it be for someone in my predicament he echo i haven't degree -- in my predicament? economist. obviously there are multiple subdisciplines. there are labor economics. there is a broader range of options.

with an active approach to student aid, i encourage everybody to be fairly focused on what they intend to do when they finished whatever program they are in. you to dortant for the legwork and figure out exactly what aspect of economics most interest to you. we go to tim in columbia, maryland who has a postgraduate agree. what was your postgraduate degree and an you think it was worth it? who has a postgraduate degree. what was your postgraduate degree in and do you think it was worth it? i ended up with 80,000 dollars in debt coming out of college and graduate school.

for me it was looking at the majors in the schools. host: do you have a job now? caller: yes i do. host: is your monthly student loan payment doable? caller: for me i have been lucky in the way where i was able to in at a fairly decent interest rate. i was able to consolidate the interest rate. overtime i have been able to pay my loans. down to doing a lot of research up front. make sure whenever i go into i job and to do a good the salary is in the good compensation for the time i'm putting in. -- the salary is good

compensation for the time i'm putting in. one of our concerns -- concerns --f our one important part of this conversation to keep in mind is the housing market -- the question is is college worth it in the abstract? ask if if you abstractly a home was a good investment you would have said yes. until something destructive happens and you realize that the data you are looking at was being transformed by forces we fully didn't realize in real-time. the example you gave, and is a case of success despite the fact that at that level it is very high. as of today only about four debtnt of all outstanding

stands at 100,000. -- if youe graduate -- you are looking at the $7,500. $27,500. acceleratings so that what was may not be fully descriptive of the experience. it is true that the current generation of college graduates -- and even worse than that, graduate students who are borrowing at amazing amounts. a study indicated 40% of the news fromg volume graduation. -- volume is from graduation.

the one thing i don't want to do here is to communicate the simple message to anybody of do or don't borrow. it really matters what you are studying, where you are studying, and what you're due diligence tells you that the outcomes will be economically. policy: -- paul is a college graduate in new york. i am taking on some loans to pay my degree. my interest rate was about four percent. onli am doing my masters ine. i was wondering what would change my interest rates on the loans is consolidating before. i am also trying to find out whether or not an online degree -- i am doing a masters degree

with certification. i'm just kind of figure out whether or not -- if i work for certain job i can get some of those loans forgiven. your consolidation loan is standalone. it is not modified by the fact that you are borrowing additional loans. you may have the option down the road of free consolidating. consolidation is a refinancing of loans. you know we're loans are. -- know where your loans are. confusing than i want to touch upon in a moment. -- touch upon at the moment. now or postorrowing

july 1 this year it will be 6.1%, which is an in excessively high rate. that explains how the government is making money, because the government is borrowing money at waving loan debt. even though i believe it is too snapshot is fixed for the duration of your payment cycle. as the answer to that issue. with regard to distance education, this is education has become -- distance education has higher -- it is being hybridized. many courses at components to them. the main deterrent tends to be the accreditation status of the

institution. we make judgments about the university issues. those tend to be more determinative. we have a few minutes left here. we will go to donna in virginia, college graduate. you are on the air. caller: yes, i'm on the air. this is donna from florida. so i don't know the person. i have a college degree. i'm not working in the field anymore so i had to change. law is exhausted.

i have no money to pay for school. my question is what do i do? can tell you what to do, please. require a good hour-long one-on-one conversation to better understand. there is a fairly recent set of policy choices where we are increasingly capping available benefits to students. students weres able to get grants as long as they were undergraduates. if somebody took a couple of years and dropped out and went back in it wouldn't affect their eligibility for grant funding. increasingly we are capping these benefits because of

federal cost concerns. there is the possibility of exhausting your available federal benefits. i am afraid if you do run out of federal benefits i am kind of alarmed. he must've gone to a high cost institution if you exhausted your loan eligibility. you're not that many great options out there. the best i can suggest is search for private scholarships and look for a low-cost provider that makes it a little more affordable. just about the only other game in town, if you run out of federal eligibility, is private loans, which are extraordinarily dangerous products. >> mike is next. you are last here for our guest, go ahead. >> the question i have is regarding saving for the future.

up an account because i think it is the responsible thing to do. will that affect my ability to receive financial assistance through aid or scholarship? difficult to answer. we have a means test on the front end that determines who is illegible for what. obviously reese -- who is eligible for what. obviously resources get factored in. resources are available to send dependent children to college. i think it is the prudent thing to do. income families and many upper income families are absolutely stunned to learn that there really is no need-based grant funding for them.

they certainly don't have enormous savings in the bank to write a check. if it's any consolation i think you're doing the right thing. set aside the 529 plans. you should be doing that. it will not affect your ability to borrow. run into a going to money crunch situation. it is the right thing to do. very much foru talking to our viewers. more on college education in the united states with charlie cooke on his recent article, which examines the societal push towards getting a college degree how might even with what he says are questionable returns. sales growth slowed. department says retail sales rose just 1/10 of a

percent last month. march,earching 1.5% in following a harsh winter that had served really -- has severely curtailed shopping. a committee resumes work on the investigation on the incident that caused those massive traffic jams at the george washington bridge. today the committee questions michael journey act, governor chris christie's longtime press secretary. new york residents go to the pull to pick a new mayor. the candidates are assistant attorney general and city councilman -- assistant attorney general -- and city councilman -- before we continue our conversation on higher education, the national institute for early education research at rutgers in collaboration with the department of education finds the number of children enrolled in publicly funded state preschool programs declined

the 2012-2013 school year. but as the first such decline since 2002. -- that is the first such decline since 2002. those are the latest headlines from c-span radio. that in themething south he was looked at as a hero. crisisu have any kind of your people are always looking for some and they can look up to. person here who escaped a blockade. he devastated the union commerce. people in other parts of the -- haveurope and stuff to understand -- you have to understand, respect them was ships. captured the imagination of england, france, people everywhere. and people were constantly

whining about it. just like anybody you were going to label him. man and very honorable he hated that his name was being -- used in a way that wasn't honorable to him or his family. your disturbing their ability to fight a war and their ability to commerce. , he saidred with that he was doing nothing that had not been done before, especially during theed states war of 1812 and especially during the american revolution. since the government could not pay these people they made them private individuals

who would go out and stop commerce or disrupt the british fleet. that is exactly what they did. >> learn about the rich history and literary life of mobile , saturday at 5:15 p.m. eastern on c-span2. journal"ngton continues. int: this is the headline "the national review," written by charles c cooke. what do you mean by drop the dropout? guest: i was reacting to a headline isochronous icing scott walker. -- ai don't mean is that headline criticizing scott walker. what i don't mean is don't go to

college. this academic snobbery is dangerous for a free country. this particular headline against scott walker called him pejoratively a dropout. he said something the right disagreed with. he made a historical interpretation that the right disagreed with. in response the right had pointed out he had not been to college. i think that is extraordinarily dangerous for a number of reasons. it wasn't just the headline that got me going but there was a discussion i saw subsequent to this piece. a number of people suggested aott walker would not be strong presidential candidate because he did not finish college. again, i think that is extremely dangerous. shows you to college can complete a task, it shows you can stick with something. so does being in the military, so the starting a business.

i work mcdonald's when i was a teenager, i'm not sure that was fromcularly different going through a university in terms of application. this is not a road where we want to go down, where we ostracize people who do not choose to go to college. a pejorative if you look at american history. host: what do you mean? guest: for a start, probably the second greatest resident in american history, abraham lincoln, did not go to college at all. he was an autodidact. we have an ideal in this country. one that i think is a beautiful is theas an immigrant, idea somebody can rise from nothing and become president or a ceo or inventor. --a hero or a star pre-and

or a star. so many people who have influenced the direction of the united states either did not go to college at all or dropped out when they found their talents laid elsewhere. dropped out, steve jobs dropped out, larry ellison dropped out, michael dell dropped out read in the acting profession the same thing as true. in sport the same thing is true. millionaires and billionaires peru's the list -- millionaires and billionaires. peruse thelist -- list. mean we should be careful to conflate academic altercations and academic ability with virtue or with prosperity created the two things are not the same thing. -- with prosperity. the two things are not the same thing. view it withyou

the context of public sector versus private? in the united states you can drop out of college to find apple and revolutionize people's lives. but you cannot drop out and get a job as a public school teacher dmv. the dmz -- at the that is increasingly true in the private sector, although not quite as much. i have objected to that thread number of reasons. i am not convinced that the mast -- the vast majority of jobs .equire a college degree i'm not talking about areas, vocational areas in which qualifications are necessary i'm not talking about medicine or engineering -- are necessary. i'm not talking about medicine or engineering. all it does is require a degree. it doesn't require a degree in what ever it is you are doing.

i'm not completely sure that is a good idea. singapore, for example, has an educational system that allows those that are excellent into streams and relegate those that are not to a future outside of what singaporeans considered to be excellence. an earlyam people at age. they say you are destined to be a governor, minister, or a bureaucrat. people develop at different stages. a credential last society can also be a society in which people who develop late often have opportunities shut down. school at 16. he did not go to university. i am the first male to go to university in my family. he is 66 now. he was in the military and then

he had a business career, he founded his own business. now that he is at retirement age in britain he is applying to a for writing of different outlets asking toies volunteer his time and help. says, well i don't have a degree but this is what i did with my life. that is not their hiring criteria. "i'm notthat sense of sure. sure." host: how has the requirement for a college degree evolved over history? united states has an educational system that does not student -- does not suited.

that does not suit it. -- that does not suit it. at the beginning of the 20th attury -- if you look britain in 1900 there was a certain jealousy of the organized nature of prussian society and the way they were cranking out college graduates and students who obeyed the state line. her summaries in both britain and united states, traditionally classically liberal societies, adopted this prussian model but existed to churn out workers and churn out people who were obedient to the state. woodrow wilson said he needed educated in a certain way so they could form this permanent excellent technocratic uropathy that would

run the country. and thenally in britain united states, that is not how we saw education. he saw education in a classical sense. we want people to be taught how to think, not what to think. we did not need obedience to the as being the primary point. this german model that is heavy on credentials and research and being taught things rather than how to think. and appliedn that it to our public sector. we have also applied it in many ways to the private sector. states in, in many america you need a license to become a hairdresser. it makes sense to have a license before you can become a doctor. it is important for patients to know that you went through the liver is.nd/or their

when it comes to hair dressing and beauty salons, even when it i don't issues of law know why we took the notion that a little piece of paper is necessary for everything. host: our conversation continues on whether or not college is worth it. his latest piece is in the national group -- national review. we divided the lines by college degrees. let me go to gail, who has a high school degree in florida. 100% with what your guest is saying. not everybody is college material. i remember back in the 60's, before they integrated the schools, black schools had

vocational training where people went to get their high school diploma. when they graduate that they also had vocational training. -- graduated they also had occasional training. when you make people feel like they are not worthy of something unless they have a college degree, it's not fair. i'm looking at my generation. the majority of us did not go to college. well ande to do provide for my family. it is not always about the college degree. as an african-american, i say all the time that if we cannot afford thant you through college the government training that is available, take your vocational can gog and eventually

back and get your degrees when you are not indebted to college loans. remarkable people have done remarkable things. -- remarkable things without college degrees. guest: i think that is an excellent point. for many people college is a good thing and for many it is necessary. what worries me is the way in which we started to fit a size -- to fetishize education. we presume it is almost a right and if you don't go to college, if you don't go into higher education then you have been heart done by. -- theneen hard done by you have been hard done by. people look down on plumbers and

carpenters and people who work with their hands and start their own businesses. the president came very close recently to acknowledging that for an awful lot of americans and art history degree is useless. -- of americans that heart -- americans an art history degree is useless. he shouldn't have to apologize. obvious -- the is -- nce they are fabulous at what they do. there is always a risk that when you start fetishizing college and the idea, by extension you are looking down on those who do not have it. a badt thing it is message to send people, maybe college isn't for you. the money section online

says the median salary for a inmber was 49 -- was $49,000 2012. we would go to jail in brooklyn. something that always amused me at school is we started to treat academia as different than other areas. for example, i'm not good at any sports. nobody would ever pretend i should be wasting my time doing that because i would be wasting everybody else's time involved. the i don't know why we need -- i don't know why we need to pretend everybody needs a degree when they may be much better without it. joe was a graduate of high school in brooklyn. i graduated in 1980.

i make more money than some of my friends in high school. [indiscernible] ira member friends from school dropped out of college. -- i remember friends from school dropping out of college. host: you are breaking up. i think we got your point. we will move on to john in walnut creek, california. caller: i am disturbed by the ignorance of american history that mr. cooke is exhibiting. thomas jessop -- thomas jefferson is the one responsible for the stupid system. he proposed a program of nine years of public education. educationfore public

at all. he wanted a system of three years that everybody would take. after three years one third of them would be kept on. the people were successful. then we would go back to the farm and become good farmers. after three years another third would be wiped out. that third would be educated and higher education and higher ed keeshan and they would be the people from which the legislators for the state were following. america, tradition of that we want an elite population to run the government.

we see this in the present time. there is an effort to get a that is curriculum enforceable -- everybody is going to agree to it. agreed to ates have national curriculum, which is a stupid idea. it but they have adopted it -- but they have adopted it. it will standardize everything. host: we will leave it there and go to our guest. it is important not to conflate how america has been and how the system shut out from what thomas jefferson wanted. , strips and certainly had his views on education. -- thomas jefferson certainly had his views on education. by the early 20th century education was neither compulsory nor universal. standardized testing was not the norm for either teachers for

students -- for either the teachers or students. he also wanted america to remain a perpetually agrarian society prayed that doesn't mean it did. -- society. that doesn't mean it did. the founding fathers, by and large, were educated and error --t men -- and error that and erudite men. i think we have to be careful not to take the views of one of the founders and pretend that is how america has historically been one it hasn't. host: a viewer tweets --

marvin is watching us in pennsylvania with a postgraduate degree. you are on the air. i have an outstanding known -- outstanding loan of 9000 -- host: you'll have to turn that tv down. i'm going to move to kathy in california, who has a high school degree. have a mix, i have a ged but i ended up getting an aa. when i was working 20 years ago there was a job locally at an institution. they were looking for someone to do a particular position and they did not require college. fast 15 years or so. i noticed the person who had the job was retiring. the job had expanded. details of the job hadn't changed.

it had gotten bigger. the responsibility was the same region it required -- the same. it required quite a bit of college. i read an article -- there was a lawsuit that said people could -- you had put down to have a high school diploma to apply for a job. people switch and said if i cannot put that in my requirements when advertising for a job i will put down college. that kind separated the noncollege with the college. aa this wasi got an 25 years ago. in hindsight i wish i had kept going with my degree. it has gotten to that point where you really do have to have

college. it really does not tell you who is going to be wise, smart, intelligent, good at managerial if they have a college degree or not. guest: i absolutely agree and we should not mistake education for wisdom and application for virtue. have beenpeople who through college who can barely tie their shoes. i say this affectionately as somebody who went to oxford and had a great professors. there are an awful lot of people in the academy who i wouldn't trust to make me a sandwich. that melissa j fabulous on jane austen. but they useless outside of the academy. courseslarge number of to take it universities are extraordinarily silly. the fact they have a piece of paper at the end of it means

pretty much nothing. you see this on awful lot. of my fiancé went through this. of -- in my fiancé went through this. and you see people advertising for a receptionist. -- when you see people advertising for a receptionist, -- it effectively says you cannot have this job. if you can't have that job you probably cannot have the one that comes after that. that can be extremely dangerous. it's akin to the debate over the minimum wage, where conservatives will say people at keptery bottom are often out of jobs by a minimum wage that becomes prohibitive for their employer.

it's not really a healthy development. on twitter -- marvin, we will go back to you in pennsylvania. caller: i am 74 years old. my first master is from nyu. $9,500 on my loan. it looks like i will be paying this thing until i die. when does it end? two points about the student loan situation in this country. gentleman took out loans in exchange for a service, i'm not sure why he is still paying them off.

i have very little sympathy for this, business owners take out loans and take risks all the don't expect them to be magically paid. if you want to go to college, get assistant. nobody put a gun to your head. i would also be interested to .now what the masters were in much of the way we talk about is we tell children lifee tell young people will be better. there is a virtue in learning for its own sake. public libraries are a good thing. book,you want to read a maybe you want to learn how to build a boat. is going to mean it do you much good economically. i think we to conflate those two

things, the not-so-subtle is you need to go to college because it will be good for you. it will also do good things for you. that is clearly becoming less and less true. the returns of formal education are diminishing. i broke my piece partly to point that out. partly to knock the idea that it is good for everyone to go to university pre--- to university. i don't have a great's desk great amount of sympathy for people who take out loans to educate themselves like they want to. host: this is how our guest finishes the piece --

samuel, postgraduate degree from new mexico. i am a retired physician and i observe people over my years of practice. the ones who were successful were the ones who learned to save their money. iece," book "financial the ones that start saving at age 18 have dramatically financial security throughout their life. it is a big issue pre-that big

issue. -- big issue. in germany they can go to college for free. the situation for the gentleman just called, i agree with your response 100%. there's no reason to go into debt for college. if you have clear ideas of what you want to do, then that is great. hvac, ints who were knew someone who could not get somebody to help him with his business. or plumbers. if they are aggressive and know don't usethics and marijuana, they can be a success.

we will go to our guest. what are your thoughts? guest: the first thing i would point out is education is not free in germany, it is paid for by taxation. it is whether a society -- that is what we want to spend our money on. clearly that is not a decision we have made to this point. there is a huge amount of government debt in this country. our annual deficits that would blow your mind. -- there are annual deficits that would blow your mind. the priority seemed to be on social security, medicare, then food stamps and defense. i think clearly, given what i said, the answer would be no, at least not before those other things.

the one area in which i am studentsic with these in the loans they will have to take out is that the majority of universities in this country are charging ever higher fees and thingctually giving anyo more in return. i'm not talking about the diminishing value of a piece of paper what the number of administrators -- but the number of administrators in universities increases every day. the number of non-teaching positions increases. there is a role here for the universities themselves if they want to make the decision of people to go there. we will go to chris in rhode island, college graduate.

i have a college degree but i recently got to teach at a university as part of the rotc program. i found your commentary about the fetishizing of education be very accurate. are a lot of people in college friend us up the because .heir parents want them to be we tell people they should go to college without necessarily instilling in them that a college degree is a tool that can be useful if you know what to do with it. i heard; the educational industrial complex that i heard someone call it the educational i heardal complex -- someone call it the educational industrial complex. [laughter] i agree in a goes back to my earlier point, when you

fetishize something you really gate something else. -- you really gate something else. something else. wenderstand the idea of why got the idea into her head that going to college would lead to a better life. when i was covering occupy wall street, this is what many theye have been told and felt disappointed that maybe they went through four years of college that racked up student wrapped up what they thought they were going to get. it must have been extremely frustrating if you went to college in 2006. nevertheless, 20% of the population went to college. of course you could draw a line

between a college attendance and a better life. are approaching half the country as britain is, many on the left and right would like america to go down that road. what do you do to distinguish has beenomebody who an someone who hasn't yet go -- has been and someone who hasn't ye? in usa today's opinion page, the board writes -- daniels look at mitch and what he is doing. freezing the intuition for in-state students at 10,000.

for out-of-state or's, 20,000. this third year in a row of this effort. guest: there seems to be an awful lot of slack. he is an impressive man but not a magician. if there wasn't slack in the going with without his cap in hand to the state, asking for subsidies, he would not be able to make that commitment. he probably wouldn't say it like this where he has to be polite, there are people who are working there who don't need to be there. the administrative bureaucracy at a place like that is less important than is the level of tuition. or the tuition fees, i should say. i would admire that.

calling fromr is tallahassee, florida. high school degree. i totally agree that you don't have to have a college education. my dad didn't have a college education. another thing about going to college is the debt we incur a it affects you mentally because now you have to and work extra to pay off a college degree. it's like you're caught up in .his revolving wheel you don't get enough sleep at night. those have long-term effects on

us, the debt we incur from trying to keep up with this team we have created in america. to donna in massachusetts, college degree. an associates degree and several college coursesate program under my belt. i am over 50. from the indigenous people of southeast new england. knowledge is out there in the but anybody who wants to it -- eachto observe individual comes into the community with a different passion for a different knowledge.

if we all collectively come together and allowed each other to share in our passion, that sharing of knowledge is passed down from generation to generation. i happen to have the opportunity inspend time with an elder canada who was the keeper of the treaty dealt in canada. what it was was a belt that was longbly at least six feet that had beads, purple and white, that went from the east to the west. in the center there were four create -- ofans humans. -- : let me go to twitter

guest: i think we probably covered that with inflation of administration and what is becoming an academic bubble. if i can go back to the last caller, i think that is a beautiful point in that there is so much we don't of value. i have never had any of the experiences that were just describe and i probably won't. parlance that means i was denied access to them. people are always going to take advantage of their local surroundings. my father as a child spent some time in singapore. when he returned to school he was behind in mathematics. he knew an awful lot more about the world than his mates. does that mean he was behind in

an intellectual or academic sense or does that mean he learned something different? obviously it was important for him to learn to count and write properly. but there was a wealth of information out there. defining it too narrowly is probably poor for us. with the internet and with the digitize asian -- with the digitization of information it impossible not to be an autodidact if you want. there is a value in that. more information at our fingertips. person -- my cousin is from a lolly -- from mulawi.

an internet connection can do an awful lot of work that wasn't available 30 or 40 years ago. to aalue of being sent building in which there are rules and particular rooms in which we teach this and that under a curriculum with a piece of paper defining who is allowed to teach you and on what they will be caught it -- will be taught, will be diminished as well. arpit tweets in this -- they are supposed to learn that. at the if we look unfortunately liberal tendencies of the academy and the last 20 to 50 years, then we will see very often that is precisely -- they are learning precisely the opposite. ricests cap condoleezza away from the commencement ceremony.

i joke that -- the point in going to college is to learn to think. confronted with ideas that are alien to you. -- i canber being remember being at a university where someone said trucks should be legalized. my first instinct was to that person was insane. looking into that issue, i now -- that is now my position. i'm not sure that a college environment any longer is the best place to learn critical thinking and have one's mind open. eric is watching us in

rockford, illinois with a high school degree. i have a high school diploma. earlier you were talking about licenses for hairdressers. i want to point out an irony to you. are only tolicenses generate revenue for the states and various governments. i work on heavy trucks. i fix breaks. bearings back in the school buses your children ride. i do not have a license to do so. however it is required that a person putting an embalming fluid in a dead body has to have the license to do it. it is about the money. i am looking at adding a license to become a mechanic sometime soon. guest: there doesn't seem to be too much of a rhyme or reason.

very often the pressure comes from the industry itself because if you can we force -- if you can enforce a licensing system you can keep people out. jim has a college degree. hello. i have three degrees. i told my kids to get the cheapest college graduate -- college credits they can get paid if you want to graduate from a brand school, just to the last year there. it is all a racket as far as i am concerned. i have been in the consumer electronics market for 25 years and it is all about having that piece of paper. host: well is your degree in? caller: digital engineering. host: and you don't think that helped you with your career? jobs, onlys the same

don't have put the people who are complaining as bad. definite advantage to have a college degrees. echo anat about that he advantage? -- what about that? it is an advantage? an advantage i don't understand how it could be a racket. i agree in small part that it .an be useful to have a degree that of course doesn't mean there are other ways of getting flamed dutch -- of getting the same training. people were trained as apprentices at other businesses.

btey come out with less de as well. on principle education is a racket. this is not an anti-education screening. it's just pushing back against the fetishize asian of budget -- the fetishize asian -- fetishi zation of education. role ofat you think the federal government is, if any, in this debate the echo -- in this debate? the federal't want government involved at all. i don't want them so -- don't want them subsidizing. if i had my way department of education would be shut down tomorrow. host: so this is a state issue? guest: absolutely.

education has traditionally been a state issue. i don't see a reason for that to change. i imagine you may be driving up the question of common core, which is a big issue on the horizon at the moment. my view of common core is limited in that i don't yet have children of my own and i am therefore -- i haven't been subjected to firsthand experience of the sort that say the comedian louis c. i am always suspicious and i come from a family of teachers. my mother and sister are teachers. i am suspicious of centralized, handed down rules for education and for curricular purposes. they seem to carry the unpleasant smell of a lack of trust in those underground. they know better how to do their jobs than somebody sitting miles away.