timothy geithner about the 2008 financial crisis. withu can now take c-span you wherever you go with our free c-span radio app for your smartphone or tablet. listen to all free c-span tv channels or c-span radio anytime , and there is a schedule of each of our network so you can tune in when you want. play podcasts of recent shows take it with you wherever you go. download your free at online and iphone and blackberry. week claire mccaskill held the first of several roundtable discussions focused on finding rape and sexual salt on college campuses. on collegessault campuses. this is two hours.

>> we're all here. we're going to convene our first of three round tables on the serious problem of sexual assault on college campuses. they will occur every six weeks. today we're going to talk about the acts and talk to you about the challenges that the rules and regulations present. two weeks from today, we'll cover title ix. four weeks from today, covering the administrative process that's spent a great deal of focus on the criminal law enforcement process and where we're failing to get these perpetrators into the criminal justice system and what we need to do to improve our abysmal record in that regard. i thank all of you for being here. you're all invited because you're experts in various ways on this issue.

and this is not a hearing. this is a conversation. the goal here and i want to say for senator jill len brand and senator blumenthal, they're sorry they're not here today. they'll participate in other roundtables we will have. but we're working on drafting legislation. but we want to do is maybe simplify. i know this is now a complex labyrinth of different rules between save and cleary and title ix and different standards of proof, different state statutes. we don't even agree on the definition of consent. so those are challenges that i know this area represents and we want to see if we can simplify, clarify, augment, support, perhaps provide more mandatory training, but with the grants that go with that.

so that universities can access grants to help train people on campuses for important things like that initial forensic interview that we all know is crucial that frankly if there's one thing i could do by waving the magic wand, that is making sure every victim at the moment of report is immediately seen to by someone who's trained that can do the type of interview that makes the difference between success and failure in terms of ultimately bringing something to justice for a serious felony. as many of you know, i have already sent letters requesting detailed information from the department of justice and the department of education regarding their enforcement and oversight. i have launched a survey of 450 college and universities regarding their policies and procedures relating to sexual violence.

i'm holding these roundtables to hear from a variety of stake holders to hear how they think they can best address the significant problem on college campuses. today as i said focus on clary and campus save act, two pieces of legislation among other requirements mandate the schools collect and report information about sexual violence. these are a great start, but i'm concerned they have not been adequately enforced. i believe we can do better to address this problem through the enforcement regiment. i'm a former prosecutor with years of prosecuting sexual assault crimes and that informs my approach to this problem. i want to know that survivors are getting the services they need and that perpetrators of sexual violence are being held criminally accountable. but i know that's not all that's required. i also want to make sure that whatever steps we take going forward are the right ones and that we respect the rule of law in this country which includes due process. i know that commitment is shared

by senator gyllenbrand and senator blumenthal. i would like our participants to introduce yourselves and give a brief introduction of the work you do and where you're from. keep your remarks limited at this point so we have plenty of time. as you can imagine, i have lots of questions. i want to make sure we have time to get to all of the questions and i hear your concerns and comments that i know will help inform our decisions as to the legislation moving forward. let's start to my left. >> my name is tracy richards. >> hit the button and there you go. >> my name is tracy richters and i'm with safer -- students active for ending rape. we were founded by students at columbia university at 2000 and later we were organized as a national nonprofit organization that requires college student activists to reform their sexual assault policies and hold their accountable to processes and supporting survivors. >> my name is holly ryder milkovich, the director of the sexual assault prevention and awareness center at the

university of michigan. in that role, i'm responsible for overseeing the institution's prevention efforts, the response efforts as it relates to students who are survivors of sexual assault, intimate partner violence, sexual harassment and stalking and serve in leadership role in developing policies and processes at the institution and campus save and other federal mandates. >> good afternoon, senator mccaskell. i'm lynn mahaffey. i work for the office of post secondary education at the u.s. department of education. i'm responsible for the regulations that implement the violence against women act and other clear issues. >> and -- >> yes. >> hi, i'm alison. hi, i'm alison, i'm the executive director for the cleary center for security on campus. founded in 1987 by howard and connie cleary.

we provide technical assistance consistent with cleary compliance and other preventions as well. >> i'm caroline fulz carver, the university of south florida system, i'm the compliance officer for that system. my chief responsibilities is to oversee higher education on opportunity out to compliance, including cleary, campus save, the violence against women act, and where those laws interface with title ix. >> i'm the chief of police at george mason university but i'm here on behalf of the international association of campus law enforcement administrators and government relations committee for that entire organization. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> i'm laura dunn, i'm a campus sexual assault survivor, an activist over eight years from now. i graduated from the university of maryland law school, so i guess i'm a lawyer now. >> that's the first time you've

been able to say that? >> yeah, feels good. and serve justice, survivors, powers, activists in handling sexual violence. >> great. >> senator baldwin, welcome? we're glad you're here. and i'll turn it over to you if you have any comments you want to make before we begin. >> absolutely. i want to thank you along with some of our other senate colleagues for convening this first in a series of roundtable discussions on sexual assault and violence on campus. and i want to thank you for your critical work on the issue. i want to share some words of praise for the administration for taking i think very important steps to raise the profile of student sexual violence, including the

establishment of a white house task force to look further into the issue. and while i'm encouraged by the advances that we're seeing on this issue, including the strengthening of federal law that we're going be talking a little bit more about today, i also think we can all agree there's much, much left to be done. so i just wanted to call attention to two -- two quick issues. i was proud in recent weeks to introduce the tyler comlente anti-harassment bill that would include cyberbullying and anti-harassment into our anti-harassment policies for those of you who know about the life of tyler clemente, he was the victim of cyberbullying and ended up after his freshman year committing suicide because of the -- because of the activities. i also -- we can address this in the discussion, but senator

mccaskell, you and your colleagues on the armed services committee have just done such an incredible job of elevating the issue of the sexual violence that we see in our military. this one issue that i see sort of overlap between what we're talking about today and that is the rotcs on our campuses across the country where many of our officers are trained and come through. i heard anecdotal information that concerns me and thinks we need to raise or elevate the focus on that in terms of data collection and understanding really what's happening. and so it complements your -- your -- your leadership on that committee with what we're doing here today. thank you for coming and seeing a fellow badger.

thank you for being here. >> thank you. we're glad you're here. let's start with the cleary act. alison, you can start off. all of these -- everyone should jump in. this is a free-flowing discussion. the worst thing that could happen is if you leave this room and say i wish i would have told them this or about this. everything that frustrates you, everything that you think is working, everything that you think is problematic. please don't hold back. the clary act. some of the people i talked to, i think it was originally envisioned this would be data that people could rely on and it would be consumable by someone. the problem is now i don't think anybody knows the data is even there. and i mean getting past the first problem that it's not

reliable. the second probable is that it doesn't appear to me to be out there where families even know where it exists. it's something that you ask for and find out if the data is on the campus. so, alison, who do you believe the da is intended to be for? >> sure, so i -- again, injust interfewed one of our founders recently for something separate. we talked about the intention being for -- to be forewarned is something she talked so often about to let people know when they're going to a campus, what crimes have been reported on that campus. for current students, perspective students, current employees, perspective employees. the other side to that, air anything we want to air i will take that to heart is often it plays out if you have a campus that reports 60 sex offenses versus a campus that reports zero, the perception of the public that the campus reporting 60 was unsafe.

i would disagree with that. that campus reporting 60. as a former prosecutor, you know, it's an underreported crime. students are coming forward, they're seeking help. they know where to go. they're getting the education to know what happened to them to be able to call that sexual assault. so that's one of the challenges i see with the numbers. the annual security reports that campuses produce that are to be made public for families for imployees are wonderful documents that provide summaries of policies. one of the other struggles i see is to check off the compliance box, sometimes the documents are

created and they have policy statements so summaries, for example, of the sex offense policies. but there's no complete policy behind it. or if there is a complete policy behind it, that policy is not being implemented on the campus. i'm sure some of my colleagues could probably add to how i just started the conversation. >> so how do we get -- how do we do better on the problem if a college campus said they have zero, that should be a real red flag to parents that they are not reporting statistics and not taking the problem seriously opposed to one that reports 60 and they have a robust program where they are accurately collecting data and victims feel comfortable coming forward. does anybody have any ideas as to how we could get past that bump? because that is going to be the problem. there is an incentive to not accurately report. >> i think the white house already actually started addressing that. they are talking about the victimization survey.

we have an underreported problem and when we measured that and had that number at the top of the clery chart and say there is 100 rapes here and only five are reported, that is how you contrast it. when colleges have to face those numbers then the incentive is to have 60 and close that gap. the white house is looking to implement that in 2016 but i think we start thinking about that now and how it works with clery. the challenge with clery is geographically based and bound. >> so the answer to the clery problem is maybe mandating? the white house is talking about voluntarily doing climate surveys? >> i'm for mandating. they make you give back your books before you get your diploma. it has to be the subtle method of have you had an experience that you didn't want this to happen. when you force people to identify legally, i didn't know what happened to me was rape for a long time. i just thought it was my fault or something bad that happened. it took me a long time to come to that realization.

>> how it is conducted. there has been a history in the united states done by the department of justice. do you have thoughts and recommendations in terms of people sharing? >> one of the recommendations that i would encourage is that campuses who are doing surveys use validated instruments for those surveys so that we are able to be able to compare from campus to campus the information that is coming out of these surveys in the ways that clery i believe was intended to function. also that there would be able to be comparable data. that would be possible when we're using survey instruments that have been tested to actually measure that which we are hoping to measure. i would note that the university of new hampshire has had for 20 years a survey that they have used and that that has a validated instrument that could be the beginnings of an instrument that other campuses could adopt.

>> so what you're saying is potentially, we -- education or d.o.j. would come up with a standard survey that everyone would use with standard language on the questions? >> i would hope that we would come up with a core of standard information that would be able to be comparable from institution to institution, but also that institutions be able to adapt some portions of the survey so that they can actually measure some of the other kind of interventions that are happening from campus to campus that this serves not only as a tool for consumers to be able to use to compare data, but also as a learning instrument for the campus itself to be able to identify what packs are effective and it is my hope that those kind of measures will feed into the yawning gap of research and evidence for practice as well as response on the college campus.

>> state the painfully obvious. we need a confidentiality so we can get at the heart of what's happening. if anyone has an inkling that their data is going to be revealed, they would pt answer honestly. >> a good model for that would be the college health association, an administered survey at many college campuses so looking at some of the things they use to administer. it is just a matter -- >> which is all private health data.

it is anonymously. there is confidence that the people taking this survey realize it is. >> absolutely. >> and to speak to senator mccaskill's accessibility about the data on the o.p.e.'s website, currently depending on how you filter the data through o.p.e.'s website, if it pushes the information out sometimes the tabular data comes out incorrect and there are many typographical errors. there are errors in spacing and there are errors in the columns. we found that to be a huge challenge. >> tell me what you're getting -- >> the office of post secondary -- >> the website? >> you try to download the clery data from that, it comes out with significant typographical errors, spacing issues, the headings sometimes are not correct, there are periods and commas where they should not be so it really questions how valid the data is and if you're getting the most accurate data for the campus that you're looking at. >> obviously the government came out with notaloan.gov.

they didn't mention the clery act on that website. they listed the 55 schools under investigation. now have to request it. law enforcement can speak to it as a silent issue. people don't know there is a complaint on campus and if they did, they would feel more comfortable coming forward, sharing information and the data gets flushed out and all of the other incidents come forward. i definitely think that is of concern. >> let me ask our police chief, one of the things they realized is that the clery act uses definitions from both the u.c.r. and the national incident-based reporting and it is my understanding that if someone is taken by force into their car and driven across town and then they break in somebody else's apartment and then there is a rape, you are reporting a kidnapping, a rape and a breaking and entering as three

separate incidents and nobody has any idea that it was the same all in one crime. is that actually the way it works? >> yes, madam senator. one of the challenges for campus law enforcement, something this we have talked greatly about. making that information useful. that is one of the problems that we encounter in our business and law enforcement on campus is the challenges between the differences and over time the clery act has expanded some definition s that are not covered and it creates a lot of logistical challenges for them to address when other municipal agencies are counting those particular statistics, yet a college campus is required to come up and try and determine

where specifically does meet that particular crime because state laws vary throughout this country. being able to capture that information. to answer the second portion of your question, how we account those particular crimes. when we talk about making it accessible and useful. when the information comes out it is just aggregate data. it looks like all of these crimes are occurring and it may be just one incident or a recurring or separate pieces to that incident. >> somebody could go on a crime spree one night and could blow up the data over one continuing

criminal behavior over one evening because it embraces so many different types of criminal behavior. >> a good example is hate crime. when you to designate, maybe it is a robbery based on where it occurred but also listed under hate crime. when that information comes out, it looks to the untrained eye as two different crimes. >> why is it that way? does anybody know how that came about? >> i can't even answer that specific question, but i can say i know clery already handles a incident such as that. rather that putting statistics in numbers, schools have the flexibility showing it is one event. my concern actually is we only count by victimizations. you could have a gang rape that is one rape even though there are 10 perpetrators.

that to me is shocking. that is common force of sexual violence. >> so we're counting all the different crimes but we're not counting all the different perpetrators? >> yes. to the point where we forget where the problem is coming from. >> but just to add on it too, there is also the public crime log requirement under clery. there is the opportunity there where you the ability to explain or detail in more plain language, user-friendly language so to speak if it is accessible. you the ability to request the crime log and get a sense for what occurred or what happened so there would be a little more detail there. >> can i just add to that? that is true about the crime

log, but i'm thinking as a parent here. the whole idea is to give parents and students informed information. the probability that they are going to even know that they can request the crime log much less read through it to figure out what was one event being counted as many or a gang rape counted as one? i think that is too much to ask. the third issue to accounting is it is reported as raw numbers. two rapes on a campus that is a small cosmetology school, 25 students versus a large institution, two rapes, 100,000 people. they are both two rapes. they are both horrible, but it is a very different safety situation, i think, in my mind, and with the raw numbers, there is no room for a parent to compare apples to apples. >> do we need a whole new data schematic for this? anybody willing to sign up for that project? >> i think you can capitalize you can go on there, type in your zip code and see over crisis intervention service. why not type in a school, have the security data show up there.

have the ability to contract a few colleges. my understanding is that it is physical and you have to be on campus and you can go see it. they can also be electronic. maybe that is something that schools can have a link to or a route to. >> it seems to me with technology today, we ought to be able to do a rot of this more simply with electronics. there ought to be a way where you can have a user-friendly dynamic where you could go on and click on the university can get the data can't get the crime logs, get context. how many students and even allow the university to talk about you know, where their numbers are. are they up? are they down? allow them to do a narrative. have they put an emphasis on reporting? as a result victims, i don't know.

would that -- should that all be done through clery? probably. right? >> one of the things that i think would be very helpful and i would just reflect also that when we look at the numbers and we know that reports don't equal a clear picture of what's happening on campus, i talked to a lot of parents and parents want to know how do i make determinations about what is a safer campus for me to send my child, and i think that looking at the prevention and response

efforts that are happening on a campus are an excellent determination because that is something that campuses are able to effect and that is something that we have more evidence, makes an impact on campus. so i think as we're looking at finding ways to compare campuses, i think allowing for parents to have the data about those prevention efforts and have the data about those response efforts in addition to the reported incidents would be a very helpful matrix. >> it is context? >> absolutely. it is context. what is the campus doing to address these matters proactively and in the event of a traumatic incident. >> one of the things the white house talked about and spent some time on and i don't think it has come to any conclusion and that is somehow should this data be included in school rankings like the u.s. news and world report ranking? >> one of the challenges with that is that we're requiring schools to self-report that data. if you just look at the statistical numbers. if you're looking at things that holly mentioned like what are the prevention efforts happening on campus.

how many counselors do they have? that may speak more strongly than the data itself. we recognize that we cannot necessarily trust every institution to report the data accurately. if you look at new york state campus, for example, if you go into the clery data and look at how many results are occurring per campus in new york state, it is less than half an assault occurring per campus. if you have one in five women who is a survivor of a completed sexual assault on her campus, we know that data is not correct. you have to rely on institutions to generate that data. i don't know if using those numbers is the best way.

>> what about the climate survey? >> they would potentially be a more accurate picture. >> absolutely. i know the outreach foundation is doing 32 -- they are trying to figure out how to measure, not just compliance with the laws but true safety. having an objective third party coming in saying you're doing a great job but let's go through. do you have this policy? do you only have your own security force? i think we need to look outside of schools to get a true picture of what's happening. >> can i just -- i think it is a very wise suggestion to look at the survey report. in term of getting more accurate higher quality clery data, are there clear impediments we should be thinking about, for example, interacting with one or more municipal police departments that are responding because there isn't a campus.

definitions that may be being applied differently in different states and different campuses. are there a set of clear obstacles that we ought to be grappling with to make that campus-based data more accurate? >> i have something. one of the things that is the compliance -- compliance is all about training, getting information out there, have everybody on the same page reporting the same things and the way that the law is written now, we are to train new students and employees on the definitions of these crimes and the local jurisdiction. i could be in a state that doesn't. dating violence, domestic violence, stalking, they may or

may not have a definition of consent when i report for my school, i must report based on the clery definitions and they are not always the same, obviously. to me there is a disconnect. to me, it needs to be very simple. everybody has the same definition. we all report on the same things. apples to apples. >> i think to piggyback on that. the first thing i want to talk about, we have this document that talks about prevention. talks about statistics. institutions have to do that with the annual security report which essentially has these cliffsnotes of policies and the numbers. and in order to put that

together well, it requires training. these policies have full policies that they support. and then a step further, the institutions are trained to implement them. what we have seen with a lot of the cases on college and university campus is they are not implementing policies well and survivors are suffering as a result. that's when you see major changes made. title nine is a conversation for two weeks from now. they are making changes because they have been called out on it. there has been public scrutiny. now they are inning resources and energy from leadership. they are talking about clery when their board of trustees have never talked about it before or possibly have misspelled it for a number of

years. a lot of -- a lot of what is there in the law, if you're trained on it. if it is being implemented, i think works well. the challenge that i see a lot day-to-day as a technical assistance provider for -- clery and as an organization that worked on compliance with clery is we get some people who get it. they are that lone soldier. they have no support. there is a difference too. i think if we have resources, it would be great. a lot of times we'll say just the support. we ask them what they are doing and if you can help. even having the president's name attached can help. i don't have a solution. i wish i did. you can't have this conversation without ignoring the organizational dynamics that come into play. >> it almost has been like a check the box thing on too many campuses. we're going to do the bare minimum that we can do to be compliant but we are not really

having robust training or the underlying support on campus to make this work the way it's supposed to work. frankly, we don't have the data yet from the survey. i think we do need to make some changes because nothing is more frustrating than a rote exercise that you're required to do. that's why people get mad at the government. that is one of the problems we have got here is that if every campus took it seriously and tried to support it and understand that there is something required other than cut and paste on -- oh, it is time to cut and paste on the security report again. right? but the same language, i bet if we look, i bet those reports change very little. >> i'm someone that says i wish we didn't have to do enforcement. i wish we could train and educate people to do it.

what we're seeing is that it is the only way we're going to see changes. i can name five institutions on one hand that really do it well. they are all under investigation. >> to piggy back on what allison was saying, 1/3 of the policies were not fully compliant with the clery act in written policy. we're seeing 1/3 of the schools out of 300 that are not compliant. >> that means thousands of schools are not compliant. >> yes. to me, as a compliance officer, i look at the statutes and the regulation and then i help administration and management interpret it into a policy and then i work with the units to help them get it done. but, you know, we are not, i'm a compliance officer and my management team, they are not experts in sexual assault, dating violence, preventing those types of crimes. what we need is simple things. give us the model policy. what does it look like.

not just cut and paste and legalese. the policy is just the beginning. we need the procedures to implement it. to get those procedures to implement it, i thought of a simple solution. the department of education, they conduct audits. surely they can publish best practices. what have they seen when they have gone into institutions? could they publish their audit reports so that we can see the good and the bad? >> where are those audit reports? do they get published?

>> they do compliance to reviews and that information does become public. >> if i wanted to go look at the results of a compliance audit done by d.o.e., department of education, where would i look? where would i find it? >> it is on the f.s.a. data center website. >> what does f.s.a. stand for? >> i'm sorry. the office of student aid. >> if i go on the website, and click on there, am i going to be able to find these audits and y50u6r9s that have been cited for not being compliant on clery? >> yes.

>> is that part of a larger audit or do you do clery-specific audits? >> in 2010, the office of federal student aid which is responsible for enforcing the clery rules created a special unit that does nothing but create clery compliance. we have plans to double that in the next few years. there are specifically clery compliance reviews being done as well as when we do audits on larger compliance issues, we also look at clery through those. >> how many institutions would you say on annual basis are getting a clery compliance audit either through the clery-specific unit or as part of a larger student aid. is that what it is called? >> yes. >> a larger f.s.a. audit? what would be the number on an annual basis?

>> i don't know the number on an annual basis. about 300. >> 300 a year? and has there been any attempt to collate those results and put a report together on college campuses on an annual basis that we could look at year-to-year. has there been any effort to do that? >> we have not done it yet, but we are going to implement that. >> ok. i was also an auditor. 13 is not very many for 7,000 campuses? >> yes. we certainly are planning to grow that office and as i mentioned, we are also doing that through our larger compliance effort so it is not just 13 people. i -- how many of the just clery audits are being done by the 13 auditors on an annual basis opposed to the 300 unit. the clery unit, how many are they doing? >> about 20. >> that is still a lot for 13 people. i can't wait to look at the audits. >> we also have a summary with an analysis of the findings that we put together. i have a spread sheet. >> that would be great. >> they are the only division addressing a law enforces title nine. that is a big part of this problem. we spend all day making laws and rules and regulations.

when it comes to survivors who ask for enforcement, we don't have special ed enforcers who know the details of this law or work together with the clery doesn't work with them. not a big person giving big money for other than survivors to recover. if you're going to spend money somewhere, please allow them to spend it on enforcement. >> or at least integration. >> i think that would help institutions because they are splitting their minds on the issue of sexual assault between two laws and now three. that is difficult. so if the government can figure out how the put it into one

unit, so can institutions. >> and they can model that better for the institutions? >> absolutely. >> let me add to that. i was also a former auditor but of clinical trials. what we did for f.d.a. regulated studies, we had a checklist so we knew when the audit team came in, what are they going to look for? that is what we are going to be graded on. why can't we do the same thing? to me, if you find at audit, that is too late. we spent all of this time that we're not getting it right. i would rather get it right and know you have to do x, y and z. >> the only problem with that is when -- the federal government does audits on child support collection, and when i took over that office, we were not collecting very much child support, but we were passing every audit. they were so busy checking the

box they knew they were going to be looked at no one was asking the question why aren't we collecting for child support? you have to be careful when you do that because institutions train themselves to be audit responsive opposed to looking at the underlying problem. it is not that they passed the audit. it is that victims are getting services on campuses. young people on campuses are being trained about the reality of this problem and we are getting more law enforcement activity around these crimes. i mean, that is ultimately the goal here. that is the ultimate deterrent. it is hard for me not to talk about the criminal justice system today because i have to wait two weeks to be able to do that. that is a huge part of the problem. let's look at some of the other things i have on my list here. the reporting changes that are

coming through, which i know we are supposed to see a draft very soon. >> we will publish that in mid-june. >> domestic violence must be included. how are you going to handle the confusion around those three crimes? we already have the confusion of reporting each crime separately, but many not each perpetrator separately. are you going to be providing definitions for the difference between dating violence and domestic violence? >> several of the members of this roundtable served on that committee and we were very grateful for the expertise they brought to the table. it represented a very wide group of interests. we try to get the gamut of different interests that would be affected by these regulations. we grappled with a lot of issues that we have been talking about today, including how crimes are counted and we have talked a lot about training programs as well.

we were able to come to consensus on the language and i credit the group because a lot of time and effort went into it and you really worked very hard to come to consensus on that. we feel as though we have a very good regulation that we will be publishing for public comment. >> the only thing missing was the definition of consent. we did not create -- it leaves it up to states. not all states handle sexual assault the same.

>> incapacitation -- >> when i was a victim, i was told, it it does not count for you. i know what that feels like. we did have a very wonderful -- the department did a great job of presenting a definition of consent and how to show when consent lacks. you do not have to fight back. is there the presence of a yes? that is why it is silent and that is why it hurts survivors so much to have someone say, clearly, it is consensual because you did not do x, y, and z. it needs to exist. >> the problem is that this is not a federal crime. unless you're in the district of columbia or in indian reservation, these crimes are state crimes. we cannot define for states elements of their crimes. >> we can do models and incentives. >> that is one thing we should look at. how can we incentivize states to update their definitions of consent?

i was surprised we still had 16 states that said it was only by force or threat of force. that is a lot of states that still do not understand that is an inappropriate and incomplete definition of consent. >> that is what laura was talking about. when you go back to the negotiated rulemaking and coming up with a consensus, if we can get states to the point where they are consistent in their loss. under the new regulations, dating violence is not listed.

you will continue to have an inconsistent definition between what other municipalities and sheriffs departments are reporting and what college campuses are reporting. >> should it go into the fbi reporting program? anybody give that any thought? >> if i thought the data was accurate, i would say yes. when survivors are more empowered, that will change. i do not know if it would have the effect we would want right now. >> ok. let's talk about accountability and enforcement. when i realized the punishment for the department of education and for doj is suspending -- i know there is the $35,000 fine -- but then there is -- the punishment that is supposed to provide all the meat, the stick behind this is suspending institutions from participating in federal student financial aid programs.

does anyone believe that punishment is ever going to be given to anyone? ok. it was not an adequate deterrent. what do we need to do -- and this is not just with clery. the $35,000 fine is nothing to an institution. i cannot imagine -- what is the annual budget at the university of michigan?

>> several million. >> a $35,000 fine compared to a very small campus that maybe has 500 students -- that does not appear to make much sense and it does not make sense to threaten something we will never do. what do we do about meaningful deterrence? does anybody have any ideas about other ways we can make this work? >> this is my favorite discussion to have. i do not know if there is a way to do it percentagewise, taking a percentage of the school's gross income so that it does hurt, but not overwhelm smaller institutions. at lunch, we are discussing penn state getting find more for their sport violations versus what clery could ever do to it. there are two ways to enforce

title ix and one of them requires voluntary compliance. we made another agreement again, watch out, you will only get a contract every time you violate. they are survivors lives being destroyed. i do think we need intermediate sanctions. the fine is arbitrary and it is not meaningful, so i do not know if we can look at adjusting it. you have to remove that voluntary part of it. we need to change that. >> anybody else? institutions are operating under a lot of instant -- anxiety and fear.

i would be concerned about adding more sticks with no carrots. we do not have enough programs that inspire innovation and new knowledge about this issue. we are placing all of our resources in enforcement and we are not complementing that with innovation. i think we are creating a situation where we do have box checking. >> i understand what you are saying. i get what you are saying. we depend on college campuses for innovation for so many things and you have -- i do not want to pick on michigan, although i would kind of like to pick on michigan. you have law school. you have medical school. you are training psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers. you have every discipline, academic excellence in every discipline needed to come together on this problem.

and you have endowments. you have alumni. if this problem is causing such stress, and i think it is because they are worried that they will be next. there is going to be a victim that will come forward and tell another horrific tale about how they were marginalized and how they did not get help or another heartbreaking suicide where there is a trail of tears and in action by people in a position to help. i do not understand why we are not getting more innovation from these college campuses on an interdisciplinary approach that they are willing to put some money behind from their own resources to make it work better.

i am very proud to say the university of michigan is innovating. we created one of the first primary prevention programs. we have implemented a controlled group matched of that program so that we can identify its efficacy on the campus, that we are planning to launch a second to look at other stages of our efficacy programs. the university of michigan has an extraordinary wealth of resources. we have chosen to invest some in this effort. many campuses do not have that benefit and we need to be able to extend the ability to innovate to other campuses that do not have those kinds of resources.

campuses look different and we need to have different kinds of innovations to address specific campus populations. it is important that they we provided the support and encouragement to do that research. >> michigan -- i am sure you do have a program you've put together that is excellent. one of the reasons you are on this panel. what are we doing to share that? if you put together a model that works, where you have an interdisciplinary approach and you have a criminal justice degree where forensic interviewing is taught so that there are people on campus to understand there is a big difference as opposed to the kind of interview that should be done when somebody is willing to talk about what has occurred.

why are we not seeing this cross pollinate across the country? >> violence against women has been considering doing things highlighting what has been done. schools will have an incentive to keep funding. they need to use that money wisely. university of michigan has been highlighted, i am very proud that they have done such great things. leave that to newspapers and other things. i do not know if that is the business of the government. we do not need to be handing out money to wealthy institutions. the people who are suffering are the victims. if we are going to give money, let's give scholarships to survivors who are brave enough to file complaints.

>> the prosecutor in me just said we cannot give scholarships to someone who is brave enough to file a complaint. they will be cross examined. their credibility would be attacked. i get the point you are making. it is a valid one. does anybody disagree? >> i do not know that i necessarily agree. i agree with the points that holly made that -- again, going back to institutions that have changed have been under investigation. they have not even been found in

violation yet, so they have made the changes based on the media scrutiny. they have been on the cover of "time," "newsweek." they have made changes even before there is any finding of violation. i almost think the public being out there in public, the attention that has been on this issue, six months in particular the spotlight has really shown on this. i don't know that putting all of the eggs into looking at fines is the way to handle it.

holly makes a great point. i was charged with preventing alcohol use, suicide, eating disorders, sexual assault. they would pick up the phone and say we have an eating disorder problem and you need to go out and educate on it. we need to start bank strategic about prevention. look at the public health model. colleges and universities have not -- many, because of lack of support or lack of resources, are not building robust programs around prevention. if they do have programs around prevention or maybe one person, they are not being strategic about how they prevent. they may do a one-shot orientation.

i struggle with this daily, how do we help them change that? beyond writing a check, how do they do this? even if it is creating a grant program, and we have one, they do not hand out a lot of those, only a small amount. being at an institution that could have applied for that, i would've had to write that federal grant with maybe the help of irb. that struggle -- it goes back to some of the organizational dynamics within in terms of what is valued. is prevention valued? i think that goes back to the organizational dynamics. -- isevention valued prevention valued?

guest: for them to get a bad story. that's a lot of victims. that, to me, would be a depressing conclusion.

i would almost rather see better investment in a bigger -- >> the fines will be paying for this. we had an issue with budget in our government. where does that money come from? we can't endlessly handed out. they can fund their own enforcement. that is justice. enforcement, important pieces to have clarity around all of these areas. you are enforcing something, but there are some people who are so confused about how to read the regulation or understand what's going on. it's really hard to see enforcement when you have some people who don't understand the regulations. it comes down to training and doing a lot of things on the back and heard i worked with a lot of really good people who want to do the right thing. it's hard to label institutions when you know the backside of people doing the right thing.

there is mass confusion. victims?bout the it's about treatment and valley. school and i understand the law and i know how hard it is. talking my victims. >> i thought i knew this area very well. there is ways that we can simplify this. particularly around what needs to be reported and how you define it. we need to be less reticent about best practice models being provided to schools. i know the task force has done some of that. toolkits for universities. to help them figure out the right way. the more we do of that, the more consistency we will get from campus to campus.

which means all of it becomes more reliable because we can compare apples to apples. no ability to really know which campuses are doing well and which ones are not because they're not doing at the same way. i get the point you're making. polyp --ires schools to published their standards. but we don't have it in law. line process does address sexual assault. it should exist in statute and be solidified so we have this idea that victims falsely report -- campuses are not dealing with crimes the behavior may also qualify as a crime, but they are talking about misconduct. >> i know it is in a dear colleague letter, i will tell you that if i were in court, the judge would say to me, i don't remember where we studied it.

>> is just guidance. >> it is just guidance, and it is problematic for institutions. it is hard for us to come down on institutions not using the standards when our government has not have the political will to put it into law. we are not talking about losing someone's liberty, we are talking about losing something of value. the preponderance of the evidence is an appropriate standard for losing something of value, not your liberty. that is all we are talking about. i feel pretty strongly that we need to step up and do that and i think it would send the right message that this is what it is. >> absolutely. >> does anybody disagree with that?

>> having the preponderance of the evidence standard would empower more colleges to take more severe action against assailants. in many cases, colleges and universities are afraid of taking a stronger stance for fear of having the alleged assailants come back and file lawsuits. stating that it is not a criminal courtroom. you have to call it a violation of the college. having that stronger preponderance of the evidence might encourage and empower institutions to take a stronger stance against assailants come especially repeat perpetrators. >> here is a hot one.

with more survivors report to law enforcement if they had clear information on how to do so or accompanied by an advocate in the process? >> i first tried going to the school. they said, do you want to go to the police, i felt comfortable. i think it is hard to go to the police right off the gate. the white house talked about having a confidential space. even in the military, we have options. >> what about requiring law enforcement to report it -- the university to report to law

enforcement unless the survivor opts out? >> i think it can be used as a threat to keep victims silent. when it goes to the police, sometimes your friends find out and your family finds out. not everyone wants the spotlight on their sexual assault. i see the intention in it, but i am worried about be used as a threat. if you talk to me, i have to talk to the police. >> the ability to opt out and to say no, i do not want to report it. >> who will make sure they know their rights? >> this requirement that they are required to say, you may report to law enforcement or you may not, they are hearing don't report to law enforcement. i think that might be because some of the universities are shading it that way because they know it remains an administrative proceeding on campus and it is not as

difficult for the university. that is what a lot of victims tell me they hear. they are just hearing the second part. >> it is a tough issue. i am telling you the silence cuts both ways. >> what about jane doe reporting? >> a couple of things. campuses can have in their policies these types of procedures, the option to report to law enforcement. it depends how the picture is painted, right? if it is painted in terms of, you really do not want to do that. >> they will ask you really embarrassing questions.

it will be awful for you. >> my solution, building that relationship with crisis centers, where they are trained to provide options of empowerment counseling. i know they sound fluffy, but if they are done well, they really work in terms of explaining and providing the education to students about what happened and providing some of the definitions in the language that students will understand. i can actually be raped by my friend. this is when your parents or guardians will be contacted. someone that can explain to them that takes three sessions sometimes to fully explain the process from a to b. if a student is experiencing

trauma, they can look back at that or have that document so they know what is afforded to them. the anonymous -- per clery, you have to include that. it gives you an accurate number. if your counseling center is giving you the anonymous numbers, we can include this number in our statistics. this way we can have an accurate picture of what is going on on our campus. i am certainly in favor of that if it captures the right data. this happens here and that is why the board of trustees, we are hiring a prevention person. >> it is my understanding that there are a number of college campuses and universities who

are not recording the data. is the only place it resides is an institution with confidentiality? if someone goes to a mental health center or to a hospital and the only people they tell are people who have a requirement of confidentiality, they are not even including the data because they are considering it confidential even though it is just an aggregate of the data. >> it depends on the institution. >> it is very important that we have jane doe reporting options and that victim advocates are training side-by-side with law enforcement so that together, they understand that they are working as a team. they have different rules, but they are a team. when it comes to explaining options and choices, we want survivors to be fully informed and to make those informed choices and that takes time and

trust and takes well-trained and well informed law enforcement officers as well who have not only the knowledge about forensic examinations, but also understand the impact of trauma and are able to sensitive to survivor so they are getting really good information that they are able to pursue. so we have fewer matters coming before prosecutors that do not have enough information to move forward, which is the biggest issue we see when it comes to law enforcement. not having enough information so that the case can move forward. >> a lot of campuses are really devoted to creating a collaborative environment. they are establishing sexual

assault teams that include a number of individuals who have the responsibility for responding to those particular crimes. that way they can go with the victim to say this is what we can do for you and needs are the avenues we can take. that would be something i would advocate for, the establishment of some sort of team. >> one of the challenges we found is that survivors who go through their college and go through law enforcement also are doubly traumatized and victimized. if the local law enforcement does not have specific person or group of people who are properly trained on how to conduct an interview and how to collect the forensic evidence, it can be doubly traumatizing. the story that came out of

columbia university were one of the survivors has been working with the senator. she went to her college disciplinary process and the college did not find her assailant guilty of anything. she finally said, i was not getting the outcome i wanted, so i'm going to the nypd. an officer showed up at her room and disregarded a lot of her concerns, kept wanting her to repeat very traumatizing information, kept trying to question the nature of her relationship and the nature of the assault because they had had consensual sex before he did rape her. i came out of that experience feeling incredibly disempowered. >> where was this? >> at columbia with the nypd. if the nypd, one of the largest

law enforcement bodies in the nation, is in training officers properly and how to interact, i do not think we can start to require students to have to opt out until we can train local law enforcement. >> i am not aware of any moderately sized police department that does not have trained sexual assault detectives that would take that report. that does not sound like a trained sexual assault detective. >> i brought people to report to police before and sometimes they make them report to someone initially to go see detective from the right unit. you cannot always control who is responding. i promise you, if we handle this issue well, you do not ever have to mandate it.

it is a reflection of how our system is. we are talking, our faces are in the news. it is changing already, but what we need to see if the pieces we cannot control. when we see the consequence, we know it is safer for us to speak out. >> we will spend a lot of time on this. i understand the incredible stress and heartache and problems with coming to law enforcement. but i also know that the vast majority of these perpetrators are not even getting a criminal interview. they are never having the moment where the police officer sits across the table from them and asks them the difficult questions. we will not get any meaningful deterrence on this problem until that begins happening.

there is a chicken and egg problem happening here. if they do not have any confidence that something could happen to the perpetrator in terms of being convicted of a crime. >> training law enforcement is not just about how sensitive you are, it is -- i shock people by talking about repeat perpetrators. right now, we only talk about the victims and that needs to change. >> jane doe reporting, i guess

part of me thinks that if the universities were required to report that this crime occurred to law enforcement without any identifying information, that is another check on the institution, but they would have to be telling the police that this occurred, or even though it would not be giving out the name of the alleged perpetrator. >> would police be required to investigate them? >> they do not know the name of the victim or the perpetrator, but it would be another place the data would be located. the federal government feels distant and not something people are worried about. if the university president was confronted by the chief of

police that he turned in 12 incident reports to the local police without identifiers, all of a sudden, he is seeing a front-page article in his future or she is seeing a front-page article in her future. that is another place that you would have to be accountable and if nothing else, it opens a line of communication between the university and local law enforcement. i know there is a huge issue. i bet you spent a lot of time at your meetings talking about how you get meaningful and healthy cooperation between local police and university police because there is a natural friction. >> it depends on the institution. >> and the leadership. >> as title ix has expanded and local law enforcement has begun to understand these particular things, it has created even more

friction because their understanding of what are requirements as campus law enforcement goes against the mission within their own agency. it becomes very difficult. the jane doe reporting, it becomes extremely difficult to investigate those crimes without any willing victim. >> when i began the domestic violence unit in the 1990's and i had people come to me and said we cannot do domestic violence because most the time, we don't have a victim. we need to expand the homicide unit. we managed to put cases together. it is amazing there are cases

that can be put together without a cooperative victim. >> that is the problem and that is why we don't want mandatory reporting. we do not want that done for us. clery has already anticipated what you are trying to do. i do know that the city can share data and supplement the report. campuses have no authority to make city police work with them. that is something the government could do. they can oppose and hold back. that way you are not forcing victim disclosure, you are just having a better relationship and that sounds to me like what you are getting out. >> i know from laura's perspective, when you do have a

college campus the does have a law enforcement agency trained versus a college campus that does not, you see more of a disconnect between local law enforcement and the institution when you do not have that entity on campus. it creates a lot of different challenges when dealing with the sharing of information. >> should campus staff be required to report to the administration? >> i am not sure if i know the answer about whether they should or not, but if we require faculty, but also staff to report information, we have to educate our student body about where there are confidential resources and about the responsibilities of anyone they share information with to report.

every member who has an obligation to report also has equally robust training so they are appropriately responding to that student so the student is getting support and care. one of the challenges when we expand our reporting requirements is that we say to the student, you can tell anybody on campus this information and they will share it with the institution. and then we create the obligation that that person is going to be equally poised to be able to address those matters. that is something that we should think carefully on as to whether or not all members of the campus will be supporting survivors. >> right now, under the clery act and title ix, someone who is

law enforcement or monitoring access, anyone you designate, then there is the people with significant responsibilities for student activities. that encompasses most of your student affairs, life coaches, greek life, greek advisors. with the responsible employee side, it sometimes goes -- one of the pieces that we have seen from the organization is if it is done really well, and there is a lot of training, if there is training about what you do when a student discloses and how you handle that disclosure, if there is not training, it could have a chilling effect because

it creates -- you cannot say that to people and the not train them on what that means. you are a campus security authority. you have to provide assistance and information in case there is a reason to issue some type of warning. then talking to the students saying we know you are building rapport with students but you are not qualified to take this disclosure. and these are ways to talk to the residents regularly about what the requirements are and if you have to disclose you can keep it private. it may not be able to be confidential but you can keep it private. i think it is good if it is done well. >> i'm an r.a. i want to apologize because i have to leave now. but i wanted to, first of all, share how valuable this feedback is for us.

i really appreciate your time here. and senator mccaskill started the meeting by saying this roundtable will be a success if nobody was like they have left and said i wanted to make that point and i didn't. so, right before i leave i guess i want to offer the opportunity -- if there is a topic we haven't delved into this first hour and a half that you want to leave before i unfortunately have to depart. >> something that might be of interest to you when we were at the table talking about considering internet crimes and couldn't address it but that is an issue. the cyber elements, not just like stalking but harassment, intimidation. those are not actually captured on a clarion. maybe an area to look into. >> thank you.

>> additionally. i want to revisit that. i think it is important to fund more research on this issue. one of the places where campuses do receive research dollars to address significant public issues is around alcohol and other drugs. do research to increase our knowledge on this so when aware not complying with the acts of campus safe we are doing so with practices that are based on evidence. >> also going along the line of the internet and technology, the technology is coming up with a lot of great intervention strategies and programs for reporting sexual violence on campus, intervention, an to have funding and access to those programs on college campuses could go a long way. i don't know how many attended

the data jam on campus sexual violence at the white house but there were great proposals about how to kpraoet intervention and kprefrpgs strategies and creating accountability for college regarding the aggregate data that is reported through third parties. >> thank you very much. >> i'm an r.a. and somebody on my floor brings me a video on a cell phone and it is clearly someone having sex with someone and it is pretty obvious from the video that the victim is completely incapacitated. and there is even conversation among one or more perpetrators about the fact that she's incapacitated. and the r.a. recognizes who the

victim is. does the victim -- does the r.a. in that circumstance have a duty under the law now or should she have a duty under the law to report it? >> they need to create a policy encouraging a policy of reporting when the victim is unable to do so. they may not even know it occurred and i think that is a different circumstance. it doesn't mandate reporting but it does say colleges are supposed to encourage that type of reporting. >> but does this r.a. need to talk to the victim first? >> i don't think so because the victim may not know it happened. >> what if the victim feels not incapacitate and saw the video and clearly it still looked to this r.a. as if this was nonconsensual. does this r.a. have a duty to report that? >> my advice there as a c.s.a. is good faith so there is that piece for good faith.

if the director for a rape crisis center report this it is clear they are not to investigate. the last thing you want to have the r.a. do is go to the victim and say listen, there is what -- you should not have, to me it sets up a bad example -- it is the start -- it has already been a bad situation but it is a start of a bad situation if the r.a. goes to question the victim in the video. >> we want the survivor to have great power as to whether or not this case is criminally investigated or not but at the same time there is a public safety duty of people that work at this university to protect other people from these crimes. so, if we are going to give all the power to the survivor as to

whether the case goes forward then any time a bystander comes forward you are saying they would almost have to check off with the victim before they could in fact -- once law enforcement gets that name and once law enforcement gets that video, then law enforcement has a duty to go question that victim. the law enforcement do not have a choice. they can't then say, well, yes, this crime was committed but now the victim still has the opportunity not to cooperate. and say i'm not going to tell you anything. ultimately the victim has a lot of power because it is very difficult to move forward with an investigation with a noncooperative, obviously, the most important witness to the crime. i guess that is -- everybody said we can't mandate reporting but wait a minute. we need to mandate reporting because very few people do this once. very few people do this once.

>> senator mccaskill one way the university of michigan has addressed this conundrum is creating a review panel. in the instances where we have a survivor who is unwilling to participate in the institution's process for whatever reason, a review panel that is made up of representatives from law enforcement, a representative from my organization, a reserve who represents the interests of the accused student and also our title 9 coordinator get together to look specifically at matters of community safety versus survivor autonomy and talk through the issues to make a determination in the instance where there is a survivor who is unable or unwilling to move forward with the institution process, whether or not the institution has an obligation to continue to review or investigate that matter or if there is other action the institution may take to address the responsibility for community

safety while not investigating that particular incident. >> yikes. that makes me really uncomfortable. if there is a video of somebody being raped i want law enforcement to get it like in 10 minutes and -- you have a panel to question whether or not law enforcement should receive it? >> that was looking specifically at campus responsibility. not law enforcement responsibility. >> i'm talking about campus personnel having a responsibility to report to the university which then would have a duty to report to law enforcement under those circumstances, i believe. if you want to solve this problem make victims comfortable making that choice themselves. i can't say it any other way. i hear the pain, i have worked with gang rape. i have been a victim of gang rape.

i helped a student. i care for every survivor. the reason i reported i didn't want the victims to be victimized by the same man. when i felt i could come forward i was able to do so but you can't take that choice away. i know you want to give the individuals who have been harmed victims will see the system works and they will see an article that doesn't let the football player go for rape and there are victims reporting and their cases are mishandled and we see that and we know it in our bones that is not safe yet. when we see the cases that are reported handled better we will automatically have higher reporting. if we do it this way we will deter survivors from speaking. >> so your recommendation is the law would not require somebody who has direct independent corroboration of a felony that they would not report it? >> i don't think they should be mandated to report it if they

choose to do so that is one thing. mandatory, taking it away from victims who can report it themselves and they are capable, intelligent individuals that can still occur. >> would you be comfortable in the law it if it said it could be reported so the institution would though there is an issue? >> i think the whole idea of reporting is to be investigate and those men taken off the street. make it anonymously and you still don't do that. >> report something keeping track of the severity of the problem. the clarity is not a basis of prosecution. it is all anonymous data. but now you are trying to suggest that it also has the law enforcement purpose which you are right it hasn't had before. i think that you will change the nature of the beast and i promise you campus survivors will not appreciate it. >> i believe that the campus security authority in the

scenario you gave, every scenario is different the r.a. would have to give that to their law enforcement and they may not know the name of the person in the video, maybe they do. i think there is a lot of unknown but campus public safety or law enforcement would need to determine if they need to warn, if something they need to warrant on anything and if they know the person i think that is a team like holly's might come in to reach out and not say this was reported, it was mandated reporting. i think that would be the best way it play it. but to reach out to that student and say this came to our attention, this was brought by a third party. do you want to talk about this. the student may say i don't want to do anything. but they have been given their option. as the scenario you are giving as a campus security authority the r.a. i would think it was a violation and i would put them on a cleary violation for not reporting in.

they are obligated to report that. i think that would be in good faith seeing it on video. >> i agree with allison if she is mandated or he, the r.a., if they are mandated as a campus security authority they most likely would have an obligation. from a campus law enforcement perspective as we talk about c.s.a., the definition of c.s.a. is fairly broadly defined so some institutions may designate it and others not. one thing we talk about is narrowing that definition and then as laura sucked encouraging that reporting for those who are not designated as a c.s.a. >> and there is -- i think it is really important that everything we do in this area empower victims and survivors and empower survivors to be the ones who make a decision. i completely agree with you,

laura. it just is very difficult when there is clear evidence of a serious crime and you know there are repeat offenders that someone with get the wrong impression that they didn't have any obligation to bring that forward. frankly, in some instances at least in my experience the survivor, when at the realize other people were there that wanted to help it made all the difference in the world. the loneliest journey is when you think no one is on your side. >> i want prosecution of sex crimes. i feel very passionate our system failed and it needs to be reformed. it is just how it is framed because survivors are being told don't tell me anything because i will have it tell police you will did he ever reporting. as long as it would be made clear the survivors can keep having their voice. >> i would say some cases we

have heard about the problem isn't getting it to law enforcement because they are getting there. it is the response you are hearing. i don't want to speaker everyone at it table but there are things i read in media accounts i thought nobody would say that and you learn because you meet that person and you are like wow somebody said that. we had a mistake. this person said one of these absurd statements students are going to keep getting raped until chickens come home or whatever the statement and you find out that was said and so there is not much -- there is only so much we can do in the law in terms of getting it to law enforcement but until we are all, i think, having a campus process and designed can campus process through title ix until we get to the point when the

statements are not being made and they are being made in the campus process, too the don't get me wrong. >> anything else? i have gotten through my list. we have done it in less than two hours. anything else that you all want to bring up? that we haven't talked about or anything you feel like you need to augment? >> one thing with clery that will come up, it originally had the idea that house like how safe the physical campus was having gone to an urban school i walk a block and i'm not on campus but i'm by the school i know that it is geography any bound creates a lot of issues. if we add victimization surveys did it happen on or off campuses. some schools are worried about having crimes counted against them and making it feel unsafe. campuses in the students' mind

where the students hang out and people live and that may not be considered campus under the clery act but i know that is an issue that needs to be addressed. it is going to be needed to be updated. >> in the military it is wherever the member of the military is. it is not just on base. we do not limit the authority of the ucmj if the perpetrator or the survivor is a member of the military there is jurisdiction. and it does not matter -- now, there is dual jurisdiction. if it happens in down as opposed to a base. i think that is right. i think we need to look at that. and even though on some campuses they don't consider greek houses on campus which really seems to

defy logic but there are campuses that don't. >> another idea i know i floated it earlier the complaint process going into effect with the regulations taking force in the fall will take place for the first time ever. they don't always know about clery and a lot can be condition to make sure that is on and wherever we centralize this information. investigators have limitations on how they can update about progress and whether you are doing a title ix or clery complaint it is hard to not know who is being talked today and i think the government can did more for transparency. -- do more for transparency.

>> let's hear from universities about that and maybe from you. why should we not have all these investigations? why do they need to be a secret until they are over? >> the university of michigan is currently under investigation and we have shared that information with our community. i'm not certain why a campus would not share that information with their community. >> why -- i know that they put the 55 names out there, but there evidently has not been a change in the policy that will have an ongoing disclosure. >> we didn't make those 55 names public and we certainly can give some more thought of how to in the future. >> i understand if there is an

investigation that you do not want to reveal the details of the investigation while the investigation is pending, because you can screw up the investigation. bad guys can get away. if it is a matter of letting people know that there is an investigation, i think you are right. i think that knowing is someone is looking at it will give him for two other survivors that there is a process in place and they can rely on structural support. >> giving information about where that announcement is made, here. here is you can e-mail if you want to contribute. just with my work through survjustice, i see people who say, we want to add this information. i think there is a benefit. >> [indiscernible]

not just we investigated. we internally corrected everything and it magically goes away. we need to know what went wrong so that others can look at that and learn and do better. >> i think that came up while we were talking about sanctions. we just had the regulation that will go into effect in the fall that will require schools to show all sanctions for dating violence, sexual violence, and stocking. what about sanctions? sometimes they are not doing a good job of sanctions. they will do an educational video as a consequence or summer suspension. maybe they can include that in reports. we have had five cases of sexual assault and zero consequences. that says something about a campus and how they are taking it. i think that can be added to cleary, requiring sanctions. >> i think we should do the same for institutions.

if an institution is not complying with the law, this is what will happen, and not just a $35 fine. >> we think it is important for people to have opportunities in investigations. we started doing public listening sessions to provide that opportunity. >> public means on campus. what about alumni who have left? i think it can be expanded. we are seeing alumni organizations that say, hey, that happened to me 20 years ago and it was handled poorly. just thinking beyond that. >> anybody else? i want to add that in the campus regulations, that i am proud of, that will be issued in november, we set appropriate bars for campuses to reach, i believe, as it relates to training and prevention. for many campuses, this will be

a lot of new information. i am concerned that those campuses get guidance and resources from the federal government. i see already the cropping up of many for-profit organizations that are looking to cash in on an institution's fear. what we want is for institutions to be operating from the point of the best practice possible, not from a place of fear. that would be my encouragement. >> do people like you have an organization across the country? >> we do not currently have an organization across the country, though this is something a number of us are hoping to create. i have a colleague in the audience who will join me after this to discuss this matter. >> i think you should. >> thank you. >> i think you all are being

tasked with putting your universities and colleges in a compliant position, not just by making sure you have done all the things you are supposed to do, but that you have robust training and policy supporting it and that everyone understands that it is not just her office that has a role here. i think you all could benefit from cross-pollination. >> thank you for the encouragement. >> i don't know what i can do besides saying it is a great organization, but i think it is. >> i think that even -- before it started happening before the -- throughout the country, it has to happen on campus. i'm sure that everyone at michigan knows the great work that holly is doing, but there are probably some folks who don't. i think knowing your resources on your campus or all campuses -- and i don't know, i guess that is nothing we can

legislate. having folks, i think we have seen the cleary compliance role on campus. we have a collaborative learning program and we have ongoing professional development in teams of five. it forces them in teams of five to really examine compliance from all levels and then assess themselves. there is a self-assessment tool where they have to do their own program review. they are doing their own review to see what they can find and do it with others. that is another thing. while it is great to see it happening nationally, i think you see it happen in our own campuses. it sounds so simplistic, but that is what we are missing.

the biggest challenges around silos would be number one. >> this is another place where the campus climate assessment could be a useful tool. looking at the levels of information saturation on a campus. having campuses set goals for improvement over the course of time. when we are looking at campus climate assessments, it is important that they are happening on intervals so campuses can monitor their progress. >> i am glad to see that you are excited about it. i have a feeling we will have push back about the mandated campus climate assessment. we will have to be ready to win that fight. >> absolutely. >> i just wanted to add on to what allison was talking about. in a court meeting across campus for the uss system, just looking at higher education opportunity, which includes all of this -- when i had started this initial compliance progress, and this is

three years ago, grassroots because we have a problem, we need to get everything into compliance -- when it was all said and done, i coordinate with 27 separate urbanization of units. everyone from law enforcement to wellness to d.e.o. it has to start with the institution and there needs to be a central entity to keep track of it all. my law enforcement officers, what they do every day is completely different from their coordinators. a central organization is very important. >> just to piggyback, some great work around this is coordinated immunity responses are happening at the community college level because they typically operate within the local community and have to have more cooperation with local law enforcement and local domestic violence

shelters. plus their students, plus title ix, plus on campus long worsen. enforcement.law a community college in new jersey has created a great intervention program that is bilingual to serve their student population. that connects them with all the resources on and near campus. it is leading the way. we have seen great were coming from community colleges because they are set so much in the community that they are required to work with more community members and don't operate in his ivory tower or within silos of the university. a side issue that takes away from that conversation. i know you are interested in the idea of combining forces. i think the department of education obviously has done some good work, but i have been continually disappointed with a lot of the title ix cases regarding enforcement. i have had the thought with a lot of other survivors, that the office of civil rights the to get involved. sometimes schools are more than

just filing civil rights -- violating civil rights. they are actually obstructing justice in many ways. i think that in looking at that model, bring in the department of justice would be a statement. this is not just education. we are not just throwing money at this problem. we are laying down the law. it is a crime. it is a civil rights violation. i can encourage the enforcement aspect. i think that really needs to happen from the government and very it is not something nonprofits can do. only the government can demand significant apartment and i hope you look in the -- at the department of justice and the role it can play. >> ok. i learned a lot today. i appreciate all of you being here very much. please consider this open channel of communication. we should have draft legislation done sometime after the last round table. we are working on it now and obviously, we anxiously await

everyone's input to the draft and what we include and what we don't. we are working on a collaboratively and it is really going to be informed by these roundtables. i know i have a lot of staff in this room today taking lots of notes and all of that will be correlated and we will look at it in light of the things we are talking about legislating about and hopefully come up with the right piece of legislation that will augment and improve what we have and empower their survivors with the right mix of regulation, support, and penalties. thank you all very much for being here. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> this discussion was the first of what senator mccaskill says will be three roundtable discussions. this not the first time that she has worked on the issue of sexual assault. her bill on military sexual assault passed unanimously in the senate. the of the proposals in military bill including allowing the victim to choose whether their case would be handled in civilian or military court when there is dual jurisdiction. the bill also expended -- extended protection to students. chuck hagel talked about the issue of sexual assault in the military. here is some of his speech. your actions will define you.

your actions will define you in the eyes of everyone around you. it is not just what you do. but how you do it. actions and inactions have consequences. as a leader, you are a role model. maybe your biggest response ability of all. and you have the power to inspire and encourage others to do the right thing. for example, you will all be innted on to lead eliminating sexual harassment and assault. you have seen what these crimes due to the survivors. there families, institutions and communities. you know how they tear people in units apart. how they destroy the bonds of confidence and trust. that lie at the very core, the center, the heart of our military. take this knowledge and do whatever you can to make sure that everyone is treated with

the dignity and respect they deserve. we are all accountable. from new recruits to four-star admirals and generals. we all have to step up and take action when we see something that hurts our people and our values. watch all of secretary hagel's commencement ceremony remarks and other military officials online at c-span.org. several other commencement ceremonies have taken place this month at various universities around the country. next, we will bring you some of the speakers of those events, starting with bobby jindal. he gave the commencement address at liberty university, speaking to an audience of 47,000 people at lynchburg, virginia. >> thank you for that very generous introduction. congratulations to the class of 2014. let's give them another round of applause for this wonderful

congressman. [applause] -- this wonderful accomplishment. [applause] i have got to warn you in advance i have done a number of these graduations. you will bear with your parents today. you might witness them shedding a tear or two. when you see that come you might think they are replaying the years in their minds. you might think a remember when he first learned how to ride a bike when you took your first steps. you think they will be wondering where all those years have gone by. but you would be wrong about that. those tears you see are tears of joy. joy derived from knowing the tuition bills will finally stop coming. [laughter] [applause] in fact, at that your parents are the most genuinely happy people here today. [laughter] by the way, this is probably

good time to let you know i hate giving commencement addresses. i really do. the graduates and their families simply want to get on with it. the only worse thing than sitting through commencement address is having to sit there and address by a politician. [laughter] all i can say about that is it sucks to be you right now. [laughter] i thought about lecturing you to going out into the world of working hard and all of that stuff. but i got bored with that. i thought about giving a speech about all the great things that are happening in louisiana, but i knew you would be bored with that. i thought about giving a speech telling you if you like your health care plan, you could keep your health care plan. [laughter] but i decided i do not want to lie to you today. [laughter]