know. >> sasha will be in high school. there are many people that are what's your next act. >> me? no, it will not be political. ( laughter ) no, it definitely will not be. will be mission based, it focused.ervice [cheers and applause] >> well, here we are, we have nancy pelosi that was up here, we have women in the supreme court, and there are many feeling that if we're going to talk about leadership and that's what we're doing here, that a part of that.t is what an example that would set and for young girls boys and for all of us. do you perceive that happening and when should that happen? >> that should happen as soon as possible. [cheers and applause]

country is this ready. anyoneuntry is ready for who can do the job. what we have learned is that the is,on who can do the job doesn't have a particular race orgender or background socio-economic status. [applause] the job iswho can do the person who is the most qualified. options.e have some >> are you sure you're not getting into politics? because that answer was ready good. >> i am positive. have the type that we remaining, as i said, you're the closing act, there has been a great dialoguest and a great day, and people want to feel, and i was talking about this because the last time i saw andwas dr. angelo's service we had all said about how people will forget what you said, what

you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. and is there a sense of how people are going to feel when they leave this day, this summit. what is it that you want them to know? >> people should feel energized and empowered. that's what, and i sense that in the room today. i was back stage saying i had to some folks and you guys were feeling it. good thing, that's the word on the street. is that, you know, this was a uplifting day. day.his is just a right? and movements don't happen in span of 24 hours. they take a while, which is why want to really empower the next generation. because the young folks coming now are thekplace ones who can really start type offor whole new paradigm. but it's going to take time and persistence, take

and consistency, and there will be bumps in the road and there will be losses. but we have to celebrate every small victory. and we can be our own worst enemies, and get down on ourselves because we lose a 100% ofr we didn't get what we want. ofnge can come in increments 20% victories, but we have to celebrate those victories and forward.ing so this is just the beginning, and it has to be, because this long road. be a we're going to have to see changes in the way society this issue, that is going to come from people in this room who will have to seese the way congress these issues. that's going to come from the people in this room. have to build on this movement, because it affects everyone. this should be one of those issues that galvanizes this nation. it knows no race, no socio-economic background, no religion.

we allmething that should be able to pull around, but we all have to be out there pushing this forward. and that is my hope for today, beginningis just the of an important conversation that's going to continue for come, untilars to we're finally up there with have leading nations who had amazing work family policies for much longer time. is no excuse for america to be following on this issue. leading. be the [cheers and applause] today wassband just talking about how this great onlyry, that we are the one of developed nation that does not have a paid leave for maternity. i think when you see that and when the president expresses that, that there is a feeling that this time has come.

>> yes. what again, what is it that you want us to do when we here? >> vote. [applause] >> continue to use those voices. for those of us who have the leverage to be, you know, sort of the trailblazers within our companies, we should be the ones doing it. the table inats at companies across america, if we're sitting on boards, if organizations, then we should be taking the lead. ourhould be pushing companies, we should be taking the risk of making somebody mad, littlesomebody feel a uncomfortable. you know, we have to be leaders. if we own a business we should trying to figure out out the data and how to make it work for our bottom line. looking at the research. we should be asking those tough questions. we should be looking at best practices. we have to be leaders on this issue. group is not an

accident. we have picked the top business, the top owners, the top policy makers. you guys are the ones who are issue. on this but remember, trail blazing can sometimes. some of it may not feel so good. the menre doing it for and women who don't have that voice, and who can't take the risk. [applause] so we have to be the ones to do them. >> and you have consistently done that. mrs. obama, thank you very much this opportunity to sit down with you. [cheers and applause] >> it's a great conference. cheers. [cheers and applause]

>> on the next "washington journal," u.s. options in iraq, as the violence there increases. then kenneth vogel talks about pacsreation of new super and his new book, big money. "washington journal" is live every morning at 7:00 a.m. on c-span. and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. >> now can you keep in touch with current event from the phone's capital using any any time with c-span radio on audio now. 202-626-8888. every weekday listen to a recap of the day's event at 5:00 p.m. today. on washington can you also hear audio of the five network sunday public affairs programs beginning

sundays at noon eastern. c-span radio on audio now, call 202-626-8888. long distance or phone charges may apply. >> religion is a powerful forming mechanism. it's part of human society is figuring out who is us and who is them. who is my group and who is the out group. answers that question pretty easily. if you pray like me, if you eat go to the same church as i do, then you're us. and if you don't, then you're them. and you can see very easily how us-them in group out group mind set can easily to extremism, to marriage naturalization. religion mayeople, be the most powerful form of formation, but just as powerful is violence. how do you know who's us and

who's them? if you're fighting a long side me, you're us. against me,ghting you're them. so far from religion and violence being these two things are at odds and should have nothing to do with each other, they have, as everyone knows have been history, more aligned than we would like them to be. >> he'll take your calls calls d comment for three hours, sunday july 6. in the months ahead, august 3, congressman and republican presidential candidate ron paul. and september 7 the former chair the u.s. economies on civil rights and children's rights frances barry. and we're discussing the forgotten man, a new history of depression. book tv, television for serious readers. i.r.s.,the head of the

john koskinen, testifying about missing e-mails belonging to i.r.s. official lois lerner. mislerner is part of an ongoing looking into whether the i.r.s. targeted certain political groups who are seeking tax exempt status. cat congressman issa chairs this house overnight hearing. the right to organize around issues and values that

they believe in. [silence] >> the committee will come to order. the oversight committee a exists to secure two fundamental principles. first, americans have a right to know that the money washington through the irs takes from them is will spend. second, americans deserve an efficient and effective government that works for them. our duty of the oversight and government reform committee is going in fact, to protect these rights. our solemn responsibility is the old government accountable the taxpayers because taxpayers have a right to know what they get from a government. our job is to work tirelessly in partnership with citizen what start to deliver the facts of the american people and bring genuine reform to the federal bureaucracy.

without objection the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at a time. without objection so ordered. the committee meets today as we continue our effort to get the treat them the full truth on the obstruction by the irs and the targeting of americans because of their conservative political beliefs. and the irs commissioner john koskinen appeared before this committee in march he promised that he would produce what this committee had made its top priority, all of the e-mails by lois lerner. the commissioner made these promises without qualification or limitation. he even reiterated that statement to the ranking member when asked. would you please go ahead and play the video for reflection and memory?

>> i requested that you produce all of the mails by lois lerner to this committee. she won't talk to us, so these e-mails of the next best substitute, and all we are asking is it was the e-mails. our subpoena says all of them. when we say all, we want every single e-mail in the timeframe in the subpoena that was sent to you. >> who will talk about lois lerner, for e-mails. how long will it take you to produce the mails from lois lerner that don't involve 601 material systems .. >> says she did not meet -- >> do you have people in this is a responsibility that race pressing over political commentary and a government in no? i think we ought to be entitled to all of it. will you commit here today to provide all the males? >> we have never said we would

not. >> i take you at your word. you want to provide, this would be something you would go ahead and get off the table as quickly as possible. are you are you not going to provide all of the e-mail by lois lerner. >> we will do that. >> for the record on behalf of people on both sides of the spoken the mb lois lerner, all the e-mail by lois lerner is the highest current priority of this committee and will remain so as long as i am chairman. the settlement has said he is willing to produce the documents. we have almost every member now asking for those documents. >> all e-mails. >> i think you understand the committee views those e-mails as the highest error the? >> are you going to provide the documents? >> yes.

>> the committee requested all the in else. the commissioner told us you would provide the mall. we requested them over a year ago. we, in fact, subpoenaed them in august in order to make it clear that we were not being complied with. again, a new one when you became commissioner in february of 2014. transparency did not compel the irs to tell the truth about the lost e-mail. you worked to cover of the fact that there were missing e-mails and came forward to fess up bali on friday afternoon after you had effectively been caught red handed. i am struck that your acknowledgment of missing females came just two weeks after we had found some of them at the justice department's.

when you were looking for e-mails one of the questions said they will be did you looked at the justice department where she had said over and over 1 million documents including some that were 6103? did you ever give the committee the courtesy of a direct communication about missing e-mails after your false or misleading testimony? and said, your staff shared a communication then you made to a senate committee controlled by the president's party. in your previous testimony u.s. said it might take years to deliver all of these e-mails. welcome back. has not been two years. did you hope you could run out the clock on the scandal? perhaps you thought congress would never realize there were

missing e-mails until we found them at the justice department. i called you to testify tonight because the american people deserve answers about what happened to the males of lois lerner and why the irs a hidden this for years. this hiding did not begin, and i repeat, did not begin on your watch. clearly the missing documents were known by many people who have jobs at the irs today it under your predecessor and your predecessors predecessor. the fact that her e-mails or ever transferred out of the exclusive custody of the irs so that they could be lost or destroyed by lois lerner should concern all of us. the federal records act, and we will meet tomorrow with the archivists, the federal records

act invasion that import documents will be maintained not just for investigations of congress but, in fact dry in perpetuity with the benefit of the american people. this event in history like watergate, and teapot dome, and many other historic events will be studied by future generations without the benefit of many of the dots and actions of los where and others of the heiress. i subpoenas you here tonight because frankly i am sick and tired of your game playing in response to congressional oversight. you, commissioner, the president's hand-picked man to restore trust and accountability of the irs testifying under oath that you would produce all of the e-mails subpoenaed by this committee. before you testified, you took in know if you will take again

tonight to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. mr. commissioner, at a minimum you did not tell the whole truth that you knew on that day. you give your commitment to produce all the mills to the committee. you give your word, sir, and we are just a little questioning what your word is worth if, in fact, you cannot enlighten us of what you know that is germane to our inquiry whether or not it is explicitly asked. do we have to grill you for days or weeks or months with every possible question, every possible way something can be asked, or will the meaning of a question mean that you will, to the best of your ability telling give us a true and complete answer? the american people have no trust in the irs by comparison to just a few years ago. the american people have never

loved the irs. no one does of the organization that takes surtaxes and if they do not feel they got the right amount come back and have huge power over your life. it is hard to love the irs, but it should not be hard to trust the irs. the american people deserve this agency which was previously believed to be non-partisan, they need to be able to trust that it will once again become non-partisan, non-political. your agency has a set of rules for taxpayers and apparently another set for themselves. the american people understand that if they cannot prove that they did the right thing in their tax return five, six, and seven years ago it will be disallowed the land they will pay taxes and penalty. welcome in fact of you maintain only six months of records and that apparently count on people good and bad to maintain

documents they think are important beyond that and do so without safeguards to protect the iraqi people from the laws of those documents. commissioner, tonight you will say that you have produced dozens of documents. it will be an impressive number. quite frankly, that production is pushing a button and printing documents out and that having people scratch out almost everything of value, in many cases. it is not producing the documents that you don't want to produce, the documents that embarrassing. the fact is, it is the last documents, not the first documents that normally do as good, the ones we receive the night before depose someone up and tell us things we have waited months or years for. i know that tonight will be difficult, and it deserves to be difficult for both sides. we have a problem with you, and you have a problem with maintaining credibility.

again and, you promised to produce documents and did not. you promised to be forthcoming candid and were not. and our first meeting my subcommittee chairman who will also be making an opening statement irritated you because you felt he questioned your integrity. that offended you at that time and, quite frankly, give you a bit of an apology that he meant no harm and it was just his style. temecula quite frankly, i wish i could take that back and i wish that i could say what i will say to you tonight. you believe you are in trust before you came here and it was yours to lose. i believe you needed to write our trust and you fail that that task. either way, the american people do not believe the irs is dealing fairly with them in this investigation. with that i recognize the ranking member.

>> i want to get right down to the heart of the accusation that republicans a been making for the past week. it is interesting the you have been accused of false testimony or misleading testimony and accused actually, if it is false testimony, of committing a crime what are we really saying? what are the republicans here saying? they're saying that lois lerner intentionally, intentionally destroyed. nell's and that irs officials helped search covered up.

here are some of the accusations being made. june 13th it was suggested that this was a nefarious conduct that went much higher than lois lerner. june 18th he said, the e-mails of a prominent official to not just disappear without a trace a less that was the intention. june 19th, lois lerner made the decision not to have this drive recovered. and just this morning he said, the justice department, irs, and warehouse are interested in her succeeding in hiding what she is hiding.

the chairman has made these accusations on national television without first obtaining a briefing from itea officials that the ira's who could have explained what really happened, and he made them before hearing from the errors commissioner. he testified last friday before the ways and means committee. now that we have the facts that sell a completely different story of richard, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. our committee has obtained no evidence to support the insurance claim that lois lerner intentionally destroy the dream now. to the contrary, we have now obtained contemporaneous evidence from 2011 showing the exact opposite, that this was a

technological problem with her computer. truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth. they went to great lengths to recover the data. at the end of that process they could not do so. also testifying last week that the irs took extraordinary steps of sending your hard drive to experts in the forensics lab of the ira's criminal unrest addition division and even they could not recover data. a church, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

on august 5th 2011 there was an e-mail with the bedouins, and it said, unfortunately the news is not good. the sectors on the hard drive was bad with major data of recoverable. i am sorry. everyone involved try their best . so if anyone wants the evidence of what happened in this case, now we have it. i ask unanimous consent that all of these e-mails from july 19th, july 20th to august 1st to an august 5th be admitted into the hearing record. >> without objection. >> these e-mails are all from 2011 if, well for a congressional investigation

began. using inappropriate search terms according to the is but general. i did not say that. his as director-general of to it now we can certainly take issue with why the ira's did not have back up space for this date five. as mr. koskinen testified last week irs policy was to recycle backup tapes after six months to save money. he also explain this policy to say will back up data in 2013. the fact is that there are long standing problems with electronic record-keeping and federal agencies. the bush of ministration bought millions of intel's relating to

the u.s. attorney firing, the airing of a covert cia agents. then two dozen seven the white house spokeswoman admitted that they lost 5 billion the bills she said at the time we're trying to fix it. there has been progress, but we can always do better. approximately a year-and-a-half ago ranchers the electronic record preservation act which would have required federal agencies to preserve e-mail records electric and. although this committee voted on a bipartisan basis to approve by legislation chief it has widely

been set. i believe our committee as a responsible efforts all the facts. there should not be a race against of the republicans to hold the first year in front of a camera and it should not be a ludicrous competition but some hyperbolic sound bite based upon the least about to evidence. this case republicans have been tried desperately and unsuccessfully for both a year

intentionally destroying documents relevant to the criminal investigation is said absolutely not. think you very much,

mr. chairman. >> thank you. i might note for the record as i get to the chairman of the subcommittee, we send you those interrogatories 48 hours plus ago level about need to have an excess of one hearing. is likely that we will reassess the series tonight. in no way addresses the interrogatories'. with that i go to the chairman of the subcommittee. >> willis lerner but with committee staff and said there is no targeting going on. i can assure you there is no targeting. then they tried to spin it in an unprecedented fashion. try to put her spin on this story. then they try to blame someone else. they attacked the messenger.

ballet hide the evidence. in the third rate following the script, the bat gile is said he denies it, spins, blends someone else. he always said to officer, did not serve a gun of the river. i don't know what happened. this would be laughable if it was not so serious. here is one big difference. the common criminal the street and a scandal, one huge, important difference. the betty l. industry does not give to have his friend run the investigation. i will talk to about this until we get to the truth. the fact that a bank staff contributed to the president's campaign is running the service station is joke. the fact of the fbi released to the "wall street journal" that no one will be prosecuted is

wrong, and the fact that the president of the united states, the highest official in the executive branch goes on national television and says there is no corruption is wrong. the bet that is not good to have his friends run investigation like we see here. i hope, have been hoping that someone in this administration would have the courage to step up and say, it is time for a special prosecutor. five weeks ago 26 democrats had the courage to step up and vote with every single republican. i would out of nothing more happens that the guide who heads the agency for the targeting of people for exercising their first amendment's, i would hope denim and of that package show his independence, he really wants to establish, have the

courage to do what 26 democrats to five weeks ago and say it is time for special prosecutors of a we can get to the truth in the past this sham of an investigation. with that i yield back. >> i would be happy to yield. >> okay. we now go to the settlement from virginia. >> thank you, mr. chairman. fis ul understand that the stage is set. this is about theater. fair play, presumption of innocence, civility, respect for a monarch public servant who is serving this country yet again out the window because there is an agenda that presupposes

sibila to based in part of supposition compared via, a conspiracy theory, which fires up the base of the of the party and plays well honor arabia ... this is at the expense of the truth, at the expense of any semblance of bipartisan cooperation, at the expense of trying to fix problems where we find. you don't think for a minute that part of the solution here is to provide the irs with more resources to address the touchy problem. your update format that the solution contemplated by --

might involve more resources or to say nothing of money left on the table of the government. i first met you back in 98- 98-99-2000. it was nit problem. the stroke of midnight are banking systems of collapse, red lights would go off, all of our computer systems. we had to make investments to make sure that did not happen. you were the yankee's czar. i saw then encino and honorable

public servant. you were cited for example reservists and integrity and personal honor. the fact that you would be subjected tonight to the brides of an innuendo and accusation back to buy nothing for the purpose of political theater is reckless and disgraceful and brings enormous dishonor on this committee. i want you to know personally to there are a number of lawsuits still on a year public-service, respect your integrity, and understand this dynamic and they're willing to call it what it is. i hope none of that shakes your faith and your value and your years of service.

the hope you will continue irritate here to clean up lead and problems are and try to make the address more dickcissel, accountable, and efficient agency. him thank you for your service. thank you for being here tonight i yield back. >> vicki, and. we now go to our one and only witness for this evening. john koskinen is the commissioner of the internal revenue service. to use always wear are from the testimony you will give will be

the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? thank you. please be seated. the witness answered in the affirmative. you are the only witness have some explaining to do. take such time as any. >> thank you, chairman, ranking member, members of the committee, thank you for the average into the to appear before you this evening to provide you with an update on recent irs document productions to congress. the irs over the past year made a massive document production in response to inquiries from congress relating to the investigation of the processing and review of publications for tax-exempt status as described in the may 2013 report from the treasury as merger general for tax demonstration. this committee has received over 600,000 pages of material redacted to protect taxpayers' permission. the tax-writing committees have

received over 835,000 pages about redacted material. as of last friday the tax-writing community has already had more than 27,000 e-mails from the computer account and more than 18,000 in melson other custodial accounts for which lois lerner was an author or recipient. -understand that this committee and the other investigators were provided beginning last fall with copies of e-mails indicating that she had experience difficulties with her computer three years ago. it should be clear that no one has been keeping this information from congress. the irs expects to complete its production in an redacted form by the end of the lot. as soon as possible thereafter we will complete reaction of those e-mails that produce them to this committee. at that time this committee will have all the rales, 43,000 of them, that we have from our computer and e-mail account from

january 2009-may 2013. in addition 24 bosnia mills whether custodial accounts for a total of 67,000. the irs reviewed the eve l. available where her custodial computer account which was limited the search terms developed in collaboration with the investigating committees. it was not clear whether there were overlooked, missing, or had other technical issues involved. irs information technology professionals identify documents that indicated she experienced a computer failure in 2011. in mid march 2014 the irs focused on redacting materials for the bond tax writers and processor rest for production. as we reviewed additional emil's the irs review team learned

additional facts which occurred long before these congressional investigations opened. during this review we learned that, as noted in two dozen 11 the irs information technology division tried using multiple processes to recover information's stored her computer's hard file. pity he still has your drive, wants to exhaust all avenues to recover the data before sending it to the are drove cemetery. unfortunately after receiving assistance from several highly skilled technicians including h-p experts he still cannot recover the data. told by e-mail on august 1st 2011 as a last resort reset your hard drive to the irs karl

investigation forensic lab to attempt to the recovery. in an e-mail already read, advice on for so in the news is not good. the sectors of the hard drive or bad which major data are recoverable. i am sorry. everyone involved tried their best. a lot of the issue they took multiple steps to assess the situation, and assured bill e-mails have been overlooked a lost during the investigation, is producing as much e-mail as they have for which she was an author or recipient. as the search for and production of the bells was concluding s those working on this matter to the terminal of a computer systems of the other 82 custodian said experiencing a similar difficulties. after the ira's publicly to the public report was delivered it was determined last week the several additional custodians mary's parents are drop barriers

during the search. it is not unusual for computers and they were to fail and the light of the ag equipment employees often have to use in the continual cuts in the budget fees. since january 1 over 2,000 irs employees have suffered crashes. it is important to remember our draft charter does of american men of all or even any rows about lost or cannot be reconstitute. a still assessing what affected had of the custodians, although some apparently lost none. the question as to what in hell's outside the agency prior to april 11 / 2011 are not end the name nelson to other employees during that time. last week and understand the white house and the department of treasury stated that they were providing all of their lois

lerner e-mails which should help fill those gaps and answer that question. the treasury inspector general for tax investigation has already began an investigation, and as report will provide in the pad a review of the situation concerning the computer crash three years ago. we're committed to working cooperatively and transparently with this committee and six other investigations going on and will continue to provide you with updates. this concludes my testimony. >> thank you. commissioner, do you remember the name. [inaudible] >> i do not. >> grew rose one. >> no. >> well, now on trial for ordering his wife. before that this committee discovered that he had wrongfully received 500 by in dollars in contracts from the

irs. it gregory rose men took the fifth to one of your employees to help get in that contract. when you go all you might want to see congresswoman duck worth howl his ankle that he heard of prep school feels because he claimed to be a disabled veteran some charges seven years later, and his old college buddy help him get that contract. at that time and now we rely on the ability to recover intel cuts as part of the chair discovery. take dick russell george cover urology relies upon that. tomorrow we will year from the head of the national archive who relies upon your organization to comply with federal law. the question i have for you is, how can we expect you have servers that run and capture every e-mail and announced.

how can we sit here and expect to trust organization in which the local hard drive is supposed to be the only place that in never existed? >> that is not the only place. they're is a well on our system in the service been found to produce. anyone know that existed anywhere, even any hard copy of official records has been or will be provided to this committee. >> in 2011 when our drive show, a few were properly backing up all the information required under the federal records act or to include the information she selected to have apparently deleted from the same server, you would have had all of those in a house nearby airport new? >> all e-mails are not official records. all the bells reflecting agency actions --

>> point your right or do. >> are about that. >> no problem. the bottom line is that you apparently were not captured all in bells. your allow her to delete e-mails but retain e-mails so the six months after -- merges sought to assure we get the record straight -- 61 factors and moves them you were no longer in possession of those. >> note. >> what is correct? >> each employee is limited to basically 6,000 in the house that they can all learn their e-mail account stored on the agency's server. the reason their is a limitation is the agency does not have servers large enough to sustain the retention of all e-mails. the decision was made two years ago when people looked at that and it was determined it would cost anywhere from ten to $30 million to upgrade the system so that all the bells on the server would be preserved. because of budget constraints the agency was operating under

two years ago the decision was made -- >> almost 2 billion nit is your budget. -- is of the retention of key documents that the american people need to count on like whether or not there being none as they treated by your employees and especially someone of such a high level, is a bad, in fact a library that should have allowed for four judge? >> if we have the right resources there would be a lot of perris. >> the american people should believe if they don't have the resources to pay their taxes they should not pay their taxes because of the irs does not the resources it will keep records. resources are question of whether not you maintain key documents. let me just go in to 110 in my limited time. you came here and said, put it up on the board as you did today the you would tell the truth

kamal truth, nothing. you saw that montage in the opening. you knew there was a problem with some of for a bells when you came to testify in march, isn't that true? >> i have been told there was an issue and no wonder the ramifications. >> juju recent to reasonably believe what e-mail never lost? >> no. >> you knew there was a problem is hot. >> someone said there is an odd development and the way the bells are showing got. the first of mind that they have been lost from her account was in april. >> when you knew in april that, you went into all political appointees at treasury, did you -- >> i did not. >> you did not. >> i did not. >> who did you tell. >> no one. i was a biased.

>> you did not tell your idea of some documents would not be provided? did you cause someone to find out at the white house, treasury? >> i did not. >> i ask a question. >> and i answered it. >> you did not cause anyone to find out. >> i absolutely did not correct he told us all the wells will be provided. when he discovered they did not you did not come back and informed us parts all zero of what we have will be provided. the bus there were provide you ino's the disappeared. as a magical word to that of be happy to know about it. we're providing e-mails. the fact that three years ago some, not all, but some were not available to buy never said i would provide the rebels we did not have. in fact to all we will provide you 24,000 in knows -- >> my time has expired, and i have lost my patience with you. whenever to the ranking member.

>> so what you to talk about resources. he started to say something about resources. >> what it of faxes we have a wide range of responsibilities. reality budget has been cut. this year's budget for 2014 required $300 million just for the implementation of the affordable care act. congress provided us zero. 300 million to instituted such a tremendous had to be taken from other programs. ..

>> lois lerner e-mailed someone and said i quote i am taking advantage of your offer to recapture my lost personal files. my computer skills are basic so nothing fancy. but there were some documents in the files that were irreplaceable. whatever you can do to help is appreciated. is that right? >> that is an e-mail that has been found and produced. >> next slide, later that day, that it employee sought out from

the field director of the customer support division and wrote if she can not fix it, no body can. is that a document that you produced? >> yes. >> next slide. the next day the field director e-mailed ms. lerner and said i talked to the technician and he still has your drive and he wanted to exhaust all avenues to recover your data before sending it to the hard drive cemetery. unfortunately after receiving assistance from several skilled technicians, he cannot recover the data still. is that a part of a document you gave to our committee? >> yes. >> next slide. on august 1st, 2011 the it field director wrote again and said quote as a last resort we sent

your hard drive to a forensic lab to attempt data recovery. mr. koskinen, ci stands for criminal investigations division at the irs and what do they do in the forensic lab in that division? >> they are an ex pert at taking hard drives that have been seized by crum criminals and tax evaders and restoring e-mails. >> do you normally do this when an irs e-mail captures? >> no. >> and why did you do that? >> because i am advised she insisted that all possible efforts be made. >> despite all of the efforts the field director finally e-mailed ms. lerner and i quote

unfortunately the news is not good. these sectors on the hard drive were bad and that made your data unrecoverable. i am very sorry everyone involved tried their best. the technical experts concluded that three years ago, that the sectors on her hard drive were bad. is that accurate? >> that is what the e-mail says. >> these e-mails are concrete evidence of what happened in any documents, e-mails and i remind you are under oath and i remind you you have been

accused of false statements, are you aware of any evidence, documents, e-mails, or other information from it professionals that call questions the accuracy of the e-mails? >> no. >> and finally, when you testified before this committee on march 26th, did you know about this e-mail claim? did you know ms. lerner's e-mails were lost forever? >> no. >> thank you very much. >> we go to the gentlemen from florida now. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i have known the commissioner for many years and i know him to be a good public servant. i am a little bit baffled. i note, john, that i think you

are in a position at the end of the parade with the broom and shovel here and in a difficult situation. let me, if i can, take people back to the history of this and to you commissioner. this targeted began sometime in march or april of 2010. in june of 2010, chairman issa alerted irs and made an inquiry. in february of 2011, lois lerner sent an e-mail saying the tea party is a very dangerous matter. then, the chairman of the committee with jurisdiction in june of 2011, june 3rd, dave camp, who you spent time with recently sent a letter to the irs that it looks like the heat really started to come on at

that point. now an entire administration and one of the biggest scandals in government was during watergate when 18 minutes of tape was lost and somehow between june 3rd and june 13th lois lerner's hard crash is gone in ten days. it isn't just a couple days or 18 minutes like rose mary wood's lost. but 27 months; is that correct? >> all of e-mails -- >> from june of '09 to april of '11. it raises many questions. now, you came on in december, right? >> yes, the end of december.

>> and you were briefed about this whole situation at the beginning, i guess, of january. in february, you testified today you learned there was a problem recovering some of the e-mails. is that correct? >> i learned there was an issue with her e-mails and there was a problem with the dates. >> but then in march what troubles me is you came to us and said last week you informed the committee and others we believe we completed our production to the ways and means committee and all of the documents that are asked for, and this is to us here, and i hope the investigations can now be concluded in the future. you went through telling us how much money you spent and documents you produced. but nowhere did he hear until a few days ago that the hard drive

crashed and this wasn't recoverable. the information we have is they briefed you in february, you gave us this testimony in march, and never spoke to this. >> right. in february as i said they briefed me that with the e-mails they had pulled subject to the search terms they were concerned there was an issue with the data. i wasn't advised there was a hard drive crash. >> i gave you the benefit of the doubt. i went back and looked through all of what you gave us. this is your testimony and what you gave us today conflicts. it raises questions because it appears that you knew and others knew. the congress wasn't informed until recently. i don't have much time, now. i learned a little about the sauna saw backup contractor and they were retained. are you familiar with them to backup e-mails? >> i wasn't familiar then but i

have the information provided today. >> i have the same information and i understand they were dismissed in 2011 and they started in 2005. do you know if they have a back up? >> they were an internal disaster recovery program that would allow you to move from one system or another. it was terminated after an upgrade to outlook 2010 and the system wasn't needed. >> you don't know if they have the backup? they were in place -- they had that responsibility for back up between i think 2005-2011.

>> that is for the chief council. >> that data might exist? >> we have searched everywhere. >> did you ask that company for the information? >> the company didn't have data on their servers that was inside the irs. >> that is gone too? >> that was disaster recovery system for the chief council. they are all been searched. >> many questions, again. >> i thank the gentlemen. we go to the gentlelady from georgia. >> i have known you well before you came to congress, mr. koskinen. since coming, i have been impressed by the confidence you

have inspired in the republicans and democratic state convention alike. it is as if they saved you for jobs that others couldn't do, didn't have the cuts do to, or the integrity. you are well-known on both side of the aisle has the government's more versitle helper. i begin by offering you an apology. i believe you deserve. you deserve one because of accusations designed to sacrifice the reputation of a public service with a spotless reputation for political advantage without a sen tilla and i use the words advisely of

evidence. it is vile enough to look a man in the face and accuse him of perjury without submitting any evidence. it is much worse when all of the evidence supports the version of the facts of the man you are facing. whether it is that the lerner crash occurred well before this investigation began. she must be clanvoyant. all of the evidence is on your side. and i want to point out that the line of conspiracy hunting has shifted with had lerner crash. for the longest time, the line of questioning was about one subject alone.

so we have moved from one scapegoat to another. we just moved off of the notion that this was all a conspiracy directed on behalf of the whitehouse -- that also without a crumb of evidence. lacking evidence the crash provides new information. just for the record mr. koskinen have you identified any evidence since you have been commissioner that irs employees before you came or now were part of a conspiracy to intentionally target the president's political enemies? >> i have done no investigation. i read the ig's report that said inappropriate criteria were used to identify for review and the ig had nine recommendations and we accepted all of them.

i think it is important for the public to be sure whoever they are they will be treated fairly whether it is republicans or democratic state convention that belong to organizations. they should understand they are going to be treated fairly. if there is an issue it is something in their tax return. if someone else has the issue they get the same response from the irs. i think it is critical the public have that confidence. >> individuals have testified just as you have that there is no evidence of the first conspiracy and now that we are on to the second conspiracy -- so did the ig. do you recall the ig testified and i will quote the inspector general when asked by the ways and means community if there was evidence of political motivation from the whitehouse he said did you have any evidence and he

said we did not, sir. so i just want to say that your strong reputation, your character should hold you in good stead as you face baseless accusations and when a man of faith is given accusations and no evidence before him, i think he has nothing to worry about. thank you for your extraordinary service to the people of the united states. >> i would wonder if that quote from march, we can find lois lermer's e-mail -- would the commissioner stand behind that statement or qualify with we will find some of lois lerner's e-mail. >> i am sure we was trying to find all of the e-mails and they were lost before we began. >> her crash came after be began

investigating. >> and therefore what mr. chairman? >> therefore she did what? >> therefore documents disappeared? >> and therefore she did what or mr. koskinen did what? >> i didn't say -- >> there is no evidence this man had anything to do with any malseasons or he should be accused of perjury before the committee. >> only that he said he was aware that lerner's e-mails were overlooked, missing or had technical issues. there was no evidence to know they were missing. i said at the time we had no idea whether any of those applied. that is why they were investigating. that is what i was told in april when they came back with the

findings. i never said at the time that we had any idea whether any of that was true. >> that is the inconsistency we are talking about >> what is the inconsistency? >> if you know there is a difference in the numbers -- >> what numbers? >> the commissioner knew there was a problem but not the details. >> he should talk before he knows the details? >> when they want to know if you are get to get all -- >> mr. koskinen, what is your response to that? you said we are going to find them all. were you lying when you said that? >> absolutely not. thank you. >> we now go to mr. turner. >> mr. koskinen, you are time-otouted as a man of integrity and i am

going to ask you to use that to help me understand a few things that have become confusing to me. you said you want to restore confidence to the agency and i have no question to question that. i have no bases upon which to think that is not your goal. but you have to under the discussion of the missing e-mails goes to the accomplishment of your about to do that. let's start with concepts of ethics. you agree, as commissioner, you can not be the manager of the agency, the investigation, and the judge, jury and prosecutor of the matters being under taking by the agency? there is conflict and bias in those positions. you cannot fill all of those correct? >> i'm not sure i understand. i am in charge of the agency,

responsible for its activities and accountable. >> you believe you can testify under oath that no crime has been committed? >> i can testify i have seen no evidence. >> i can tell you i have no evidence that lindsay lohois let committed a crime but i don't have the ability for let them take things. just because you have not seen the evidence doesn't mean you have the ability to say no crime was committed. >> i would note again -- >> you cannot testify under oath that no crime was committed. >> the inspector general -- >> do you have the ability to say no crime has been done. >> i have the ability to say i have seen no evidence. >> lois lerner came here and

provoked to fifth because she indicated she wanted to assert the rights because of fear of prosecution. let's say that again. fear of criminal prosecution. you cannot testify today that lois lerner has no need for fear of criminal prosecution because you cannot testify she didn't commit a crime. here is what i am concerned about. since you are a man before us with integrity. if in the process of the e-mails being destroyed, there were those in your agency that knew a crime possible was committed they committed a crime because destruction of evidence is a crime. and you cannot testify there was no crime committed in the destruction of her e-mails. you can only say you have no

evidence. >> i have no evidence of a whole series of things. >> that is why it is important to getting to jim jordan and the special prosecutor. if you are a man of integrity and you know you don't have evidence versus you know no crime committed you have to understand your agency is at risk. you possible have people at the irs who are committing crime. the only way to know that is calling the fbi and asking them to do an investigation on the disappearance of the e-mails. so my question is will you call the fbi and ask thel them to investigate the e-mails that their destruction could have been a crime? >> an inspector general, not controlled by us -- >> they are not a criminal investigation. >> they are capable of doing

criminal and civil. they make recommendations. >> the integrity of your group is at stake. lois lerner evoked the fifth and that should be enough to say maybe crimes were committed with my agency and now the e-mails are missing maybe someone not of integrity committed a crime. you should call for the fbi and you should call for a special prosecutor. >> i cannot enter into lois lerner's mind. >> i asked you to pick up the phone and call the fbi. >> i am not calling the fbi. >> that is an issue of your personal integrity because the concern the americans have are at stake. >> the inspector general will issue a report and we will get the benefit of the report and

then determine watt the appropriate action. >> i have believed what happened in your agency with lois lerner is a crime, i believe others are involved, i believe the e-mails missing would give us the ability to establish that and i believe that someone took criminal acts to destroy them and i believe as the commissioner of the agency you should call the fbi. >> no facts behind them. >> thank you. we go to the gentlemen from massachusetts now. >> mr. koskinen, good evening and thank you for being here. i don't think i have seen a display of this kind of disrespect since i have been in congress. it is unfortunate that anyone would be subjected to this. >> will the gentlemen yield? >> no. >> then you suspend.

>> please stop the clock. >> the time is suspended. i would caution all members not to characterize the intent or the character of your fellow members here on the dayious. >> but it is fair game to question the integrity of the witness? the rules of the house speak to questions the integrity of members. i would caution all of us that the chair has questioned the testimony earlier as whether it was the truth or whole truth that in fact to question the motives of the witness should be done on evidence and questions the motives of your fellow member is an action for which

the floor can take down rules. >> mr. chairman -- >> use your mike. >> has the chairman violated the rules of the committee? >> please state your point of parliamentary -- >> has the chairman violated his own rules in the -- >> that is a question. >> do you have a question of approv approval? >> state a point of inquiry. if not, we will go on. the gentlemen may continue. >> i think the understanding is the rules of the house say the members should reflect them in a way that periforms creditability on the house. i think people watching can decide if that has been

followed. you are trying to tell people it is the inspector general's responsibility to file the report and make action on what should be done or upon reading the report you and others might make recommendations on what should be done. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> we are not even to that point yet. >> that is correct. >> we might first gather information and decide where we go from there. >> correct. >> have you testified tonight to anything that was not discussed at last friday's hearing? >> did i what? >> have you discussed any matter important to this subject that wasn't discussed last friday? >> thus far, no. just to get it right, you were scheduled to testify originally in front of chairman camp's

committee on the 24th. >> that is correct. >> have they been in touch before scheduling that? >> they asked if i was available on the morning on tuesday and i wasn't and we agreed i would testify in the afternoon >> you agreed to testify volunitarivolu voluntarally. >> i have always agreed. >> you received a subpoena from chairman issa? >> correct. >> did mr. issa come and ask you to come? >> no. >> did the staff ask you to come? >> no. >> did he explain why it was urgent you come at 7:00 on monday when you were scheduled to appear the following day? tuesday the 24th. >> no. >> i will not ask you to sp

speculate. but some might say camp can't do the job or there is competition. you were notified there was going to be a hearing in chairman camp's committee on friday of last week. >> that is correct. >> >> how were you notified? >> the staff asked if i was available on friday and they had to get the approval agreement and i understand there was a seven day rule. i told them i could make myself available. >> how long did you testify? >> four and a half hours with a recess of 45 minutes in the middle. >> i would think having testified all that time tonight's hearing might be

redundant. >> it has similarities to friday. >> the only thing difference is chairman issa has invited ms. jennifer o'conner to testify tomorrow. do you think her? >> i don't. >> do you know if she worked at the irs of may-november? >> that is my understanding. >> that would have been well before the discovery of lois lerner's e-mails going missing? >> that is correct. >> do you know where she works now? >> i understand at the whitehouse. >> some might think people on this committee they have trumped mr. camp and his committee and maybe it gives them camera but

no one wants to speculate like that. i think it is unfortunate you had to be subjected to this again and i hope members will assess the creditability of the house. >> i think the gentlemen and we go to the gentlemen from tennessee. mr. duncan. >> thank you very much. thank you, mr. chairman for pursueing this investigation like you have. in a free country no individual or group of individual should be targ targeted for their political beliefs and everybody that looks at this closely feels that happened. on march 26th, mr. koskinen said there was no targeting just inappropriate criteria.

the "washington post" is probably the main defender of the federal bureaucracy and they said he should be given three pinocio's and that is one too many. i don't know his opinion on that but i will say this... all over the country people saying there is a double standard being applied. they are saying there is one standard for everybody else and one for the irs. i have been following pop politics and government since high school and i believe there is more anger and discuss toward

the federal government than any other time in my life time because everybody feels like we ended up with a government that is of, by and for the bure bureaucrats versus the people. mr. koskinen was given the chance to apologize on behalf of the irs and didn't do so but i think the people can understand there is a difference applied to the irs and individuals having problems on their taxes. and it seems that every time the federal government screws up, which is often, they also fall back on one or both of two excuses. they say they are underfunded or their technology is out of date. of course that is what we have heard today. but i can tell you the people of this country are sick and tired of arrogance within the federal

government. and this hearing -- and others that will follow about this, i think will help assure this doesn't happen again. i commend you and yield back my time. >> would the gentlemen yield? >> i think the gentlemen. i would like to go through the question one more time. when you testify that in fact you knew there was this problem when you were here last time but you didn't know in fact e-mails were lost? is that correct? >> that is correct. >> but you know there was a sequence or numbering problem? >> correct. >> did you take any steps to find out what the sequence or numbering problem was? people say there is a problem almost always in my experience as a ceo. you say tell me about the problem. what does the problem mean? did you do that? >> no, i asked to be kept up day

to day and 200 people were working on the issue. they said they would let me know and they did. >> so there is 200 people working on the problem of delivering e-mails and it took this long to find out that there were missing ones from lois lerner. >> it took until -- >> that is almost a year. >> from the time anybody thought there was a problem it took about two months. >> okay. so -- >> no body knew there was a problem last year. >> but you know there was inconsistency when you came before us. >> i know a problem was identified and under investigation. >> why is that you didn't answer when asked a dozen time will you deliver -- we can find lois lerner's e-mails. >> that was my assumption at the time. >> but you knew there was a problem with some part of her e-mails. >> but we had no idea -- at the

time no one understood the ramifications. they ran the whole production process again and searched the files to make sure e-mails were not lost. at the time i testified no one knew there were missing e-mails. >> were you aware when you testified last time there was a crash in lois lerner's disk drive years before? >> when i testified here? >> no. >> were the people reporting to you aware of that? >> the it people apparently were. they discovered there was an issue with the computer in late f feb. >> we go to the gentlemen from massachusetts. mr. lynch. >> i want to raise the issue while the irs isn't held high repute, neither is the united

states congress. i want to thank you for your willingness to testify. i would like to refocus on the evidence here. i am a little bit surprised at the chronlogical order that has been laid out here where you originally invited my -- mr. camp and the ways and means committee to testify and then it seems like when mr. issa found out, you were subpoenaed here to testify before you and you will testify tomorrow at the other hearing and then mr. camp jumps in front of him and now i have billboards and a video clip up there. i am worried i will come in here tomorrow and there is a 16-piece orchestra to cap out the show. that is not the way this is supposed to happen. that is not the way this is

supposed to go down. there are serious issues here we have to get to. all of this fanfare and showm showmanship is doing a dissatisfaction to the american people. we are failing meeting the expectations of the american people. i would like to focus on the evidence. and going back to the heart of this issue, we did have a situation where there was evidence, and admission on the part of the irs, they were using search terms such as tea party, patriots, 9-12 project in terms of being on the lookout for groups applying with those characteristics. and any issues on applications that included government spending or government taxes.

they were looking for statements in the case file criticizing how the country was run. that is evidence. when the irs goes after citizens of the united states because of this criteria that is evidence of their state of mind. that is not all they looked for. they also looked for any search terms regarding progressives, or emerge groups which were also very progressive groups, 501c applications. and successors to acorn because they were highly progressives. so there was widespread, not just going after conservative groups, but it was going after american citizens who have various political views and that

is evidence. >> they are evidence. exactly. >> right. okay. so when these e-mails go missing for 27 months on lois lerner's account, you realize how that -- that just feeds in the suspicion that there is something going on here. >> i understand that. that is why i think it is important to understand we were able to find 24,000 e-mails in that period. >> i know what you found. i appreciate that. i think you went at it honestly. when mr. russell, the ig for the irs, when why looked at it, he was looking at the search term issue for us. did he look at the other issue of the missing e-mails? did he do that? was that known to him? >> it wasn't known to anyone at

that time. >> we didn't look at that? >> the ig to my understanding looked at that. he is starting to investigate that now. >> well, i think that is something we might want to revisit. do you think it would be worthwhile to have the inspector general to go back and look at the way these e-mails went missing? i know there is unfounded allegations about other employees and their e-mails going missing. >> he is looking at it. i expect when they complete the investigation they will provide a report to us and this committee and other investigators. >> okay. my time is expired. i yield back. >> the gentlemen said it was unfounded. are other drives that led to other e-mails not being available to your knowledge? >> at this point, there is not. we noted, i asked, as i said in my testimony in may, as we were

getting the arms around lois lerner i said can we look at the other 82 custodians and that was part of what we hoped to complete in the full review of this. >> so we don't know today about others? there maybe others? >> yes, there maybe others. we have provided information of what we know. we just learned about that last monday. >> just to follow-up on that. >> of course. >> i am trying to remember her name. nicole flax. there was a story last week her e-mails were missing. have we made progress on her e-mails? >> i think it was cleared up it was one of her two e-mails. >> are her e-mails messing? >> there is no evidence. >> i ask consent that the 144

page report be placed in the order and the title is debunking the myth that the irs targeted conservatives. we recognize the gentlemen from south carolina, mr. henry. >> there is a lot of discussion and you have been through multiple hearing related to the this lois lerner targeting of conservative groups. do you under what the fuss and furry is about this week? do you understand why folks are upset about this? >> i understand but i have not been around washington for a long time. >> you had a long career. >> we take it seriously because if there has been a hard drive crash and e-mail disappear that is a matter that should be reviewed. we provided the information about e-mails and it appears

that ms. lerner was working hard to retrieve them. >> you had the ability to stair with congress and the american people in real-time what you were finding. why didn't you do that? >> my judgment was we should produce all of the information when we had it. >> even if that meant along the way people question how you answered congressionally inquiries. >> this isn't about you. this isn't about anybody up here. this isn't about a hearing. this is about the american people. your agency sends fear up the spines of every american when you contact them. and if there is one receipt missing, a small business person goes and searches far and wide and yet we have evidence that and you testified that, you

know, lois lerner's harddrive crashed and that erased e-mails from january 2009-april 2011. just the time period congress is most concerned about with the targeting of tea party and conservative groups. i understand. and you can answer reasonably but when you see that type of thing happen, it almost defies any one sense of capacity that that could happen. >> congress is interested in what happened up until 2013 and we are in the process of those e-mails. we have significant amount of e-mail that is not lost. 43,000 and we have been able to find another 24,000. but the important point is the question is in the period we

found the 24,000 what are the e-mails she sent outside of the agency that is not reflected in accounts. >> and how are they going to come forward? >> because the whitehouse and treasury provided -- the witness >> the reason i am asking the question is i want you to convey to the american people that running the irs -- a very frightening agency, right -- for my voters at home. that you get it. that you understand why the american people look at this and say this is so far beyond my ability to reason. an agency with more than a

billion dollar, nearly two billion it budget let's a hard drive crash. it seems ridiculous and beyond understanding that this would happen in such a convenient context and we have lois lerner who has been a major focus of this inquiry and she is searching to make sure we recover her hard droifb that may incriminate her but we will not know because it has been recycled. >> i yield by time to mr. jordan. >> what date did you learn when you could not get her e-mails? >> in april. i don't know the day. >> beginning or end? >> april. i don't know the date. >> i will field back the time. >> would the gentlemen yield?

>> i would be happy, too. >> you only know within a month? could you provide the committee with some evidence from the calendar that would indicate what day you were briefed? >> i would be delighted to. there is nothing on my calendar that shows that. >> who briefed you? >> i don't recall. i have addressed all of them people and talked to them -- >> you don't remember the name of the person that told you sometime in april -- >> by sometime in april i was aware there were e-mails lost, b we were reconstituting e-mails and to the extend we could. >> you don't remember the name of the people? >> i don't remember.

>> i don't remember is an answer. >> thank you, chairman. i would like to ask this paper be entered to the record at this time. >> would the gentlemen state the date of that article? >> july 4th, 2013. >> someone disputes my april 2014 with a july 2013 article. >> mr. chairman, he lays out a good case. i think it should be in the record. >> i think it is fine for someone to determine a year ahead of the report the report is invalid. >> mr. koskinen, from your testimony, the irs doesn't permit 90,000 employees to store

e-mail in their active inbox; is that correct? >> yes. >> why is that? >> we don't have the server capacity to absorb all of them. >> why not >> because of the expense. >> what is the cost? >> somewhere between $10-$30 milli million. >> instead they move them when they want to store them on their hard drives. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> would an alternative to be the cloud? >> there is no way to do that. >> why? >> because we are sensitive to security and thus far the irs hasn't moved information to the cloud but the my understanding is they are looking to that. >> hard drives crash in older

computers and it is said that businesses should replace every 3-4 years. >> that is the general standard. >> how often does the irs meet that standard? >> we refresh them and sometimes it takes as long as 5-7 years. >> could part of the problem be we are dealing with an aging set of pc's and irs because we have invested new equipment. >> that is no doubt that. we have thousands of employees running windows xp and we are trying to move them on windows 7. windows xp isn't supported any longer by microsoft. >> surely with the concern of hard drives crashing and e-mails not being stored, and all kind of other problems and given the sensitivity of the data, the irs posesses, surely the congress has provided a set of resources

to you to quickly update your computer technology? your technology? >> we are provided significant amount of money but less than we need. >> has your budget gone down? >> yes. >> how much? >> $800 million dollars. >> your budget went down $800 nominal dollars? >> that is right. the actual dollar number. >> huh? that is amazing given our concern we would not provide you with resources to make sure this

thing doesn't happen again. >> the house mark for 2015 cuts us by another $350 million. >> in one fiscal year? >> yes. >> surely that will change in light of the deep and profound concern for what happened to lois lerner's high drives? >> we have high hopes. >> surely you have been called to the midnight sessions to try to see what help you need? you have been asked? have you been subpoenaed or requested before any committee of the house of representatives to testify to what your needs are? and what the cut might do to the agency? >> i have testified before the subcommittee and provided updated information to the senate and house about the negative impact of a $350

million cut. >> and they are heart blood for you undoubtedly. thank you, mr. koskinen. >> i think the gentlemen. >> unanimous consent request. i would like to enter in the record the reason magazine article from the weekend of june 21st that the irs had the contract with sauna server starting in 2005 and i would like to put the motto of them from an e-mail that says if the irs uses our proucts to back up your services why wouldn't you chose them to protect you. and then i have a third article. the daily caller this weekend

said sauna's six year relationship with the irs came to a close at the end of fiscal year 2011 as congressional investigatorers began looking into the scandal. >> without objection it will be placed in the record. with that, i can to the gentlemen from ohio. >> irs in february of 2014 identified documents that ms. lerner experienced computer failure. in mid march the irs focused on lerner e-mail for production. the data was determined to be unrecoverable. mid-march you knew it was not recoverable and late march you came before the committee and didn't tell us her computer failed and you cannot recover

remails. fine. your testimony was i was not sure we lost them all. i asked you when did you learn and you had in april. i want to focus on when you officially learned according to your definition. you can't remember who told you this information? >> i don't remember. >> was it in person? e-mail? >> i don't recall. i don't get e-mails on the subject so i am sure in person. >> this has been a major news story and you don't remember who came up to you they lost the e-mails? >> i remember being told. >> but you don't remember who? you would think that would be significant enough to remember how it happened. you might even remember where you are standing. >> i am running an agency with 90,000 people.

we are in the middle of filing season. >> you find out in april sometime. what did you do then? >> i was advised they were reconstituting as many other e-mails. >> who did you tell? did you tell the whitehouse? >> i never told them. >> politico said you told them in august. >> i don't think that is what they reported. >> did you talk outside the agency? >> no. not outside >> when did you tell congress? >> we produced the public report two days ago. >> you knew in april and waited to months to tell this body? >> yes. >> why did you wait so long? >> we were going to wait for all

of mails -- >> i want to know why you didn't tell us you lost some of the e-mails. >> our program was which complete the review -- >> it is important to tell us when you lost e-mails for the person we are focused on. don't you think? let me ask you this. did you tell the justice department? >> no. >> why not? there is a criminal investigation going on. >> we have no evidence there is any criminal violation involved. >> i didn't ask you. the president of the united states said we vhave to get to the bottom and the attorney general is going to do whatever they can. have you talked to the fbi about this? >> i have never talked to the fbi. >> think about the average citizen out there. fbi investigating some citizen out there. and they lose documents over a two-year time period that is

critical to the investigation and they say we are not going to tell the fbi and the fbi learns later do you think that person is in trouble? yes, but you say i don't tell anybody. did you tell the inspector je e general? you told us you learned in april did you tell the inspector general in april you lost lois lerner e-mail? >> no. >> here is what i would like to know. you waited two months to tell anyone. when does it become obstruction of justice? three months? four months? two weeks? when you get that critical information and say you will hang on to this, we have to spin it better, the fact you didn't tell us and we have been after this for 13 months and suspebpo for this and you tell us you cannot and give us a report you

gave us and on page nine you say we lost the e-mails. >> that starts on page five. >> i would like for you to tell us. not send us in some 37 page document on page five. >> it is a seven-page document. >> this is ridiculous, mr. chairman, that we didn't know this when he knew. he would not tell us a computer crash or we think we lost thement them all. we are 99% sure. ridiculous. i thank the gentlemen. >> for the record, ways and means committee referred four criminal charges to justice against lois lerner months ago. ...

i now ask >> is the gentlelady making a motion? >> i just want us to get back to basics and to run this committee as it should be run with respect and decorum and badgering this commissioner as virtually every member on the republican side has done is shameful. and it's got to stop. one member here is going to walk out and not return. >> the gentlelady's time. >> and i'm not yielding. >> would the gentlelady yield? >> no. >> would the gentlelady please

yield? >> i'm sorry i didn't hear you. >> would the gentlelady please yield? >> that was better but no. mr. chairman, i would like unanimous consent to put into the record the democratic staff scuke to put in the report no evidence of white house involvement in politicalment of screening. so ordered. >> commissioner -- commissioner koskinen, why you're serving our country at this one time is beyond me, but thank you on behalf of all was because you are and extolling example of what we do unevenness country. that is someone who knows exactly what they're doing. it's not to be bullied and to state the facts as they see it.

let us start from the very beginning of this timeline. based on the e-mails we have obtained mess lerner's hard drive crashed on june 13th, to 11. is that not so? her first indication, the first time she was informed by irs employees in cincinnati that there were using a research terms does not happen until after computer crashed. and what date was that? >> that is a week or two thereafter. >> june 29th 2011. june 13th it crashes. jan 29 to see is informed that they may be using inappropriate search terms. the congressional investigation and the inspector general also did not start until after the computer crash.

is that correct? >> as correct. >> i just want to make sure that i have this clear. the court -- the crash occurred before she was informed of the employees were using opprobrious search terms and before there was a congressional or inspector general investigation. >> she kept the melson and her e-mail accounts. >> my colleague that was talking about the system that exists. when the archive and the irs because you do not have that data availability of the $30 million invested you have to print e-mails. determined that any melos appropriate or necessary to be archived and printed. >> was correct. >> that is our take it is. let's go on to the hearing on

friday. some of the republican members there sprung and document on you that you had not reviewed beforehand arguing that the chairman and sent a letter to the irs on these exact issues ten days before the crash. ten days later -- think about the duration. reflecting plans, tocsin executes. there is already law that says that this serves the applicability of gift in his own letter he says it's

unsettled area of tax law but he further notes that it has been applied in some cases.