this evening, the president and first lady celebrate the fourth by hosting men and women, servicemen and women and their families with a barbecue, a concert, and a view of the fireworks on the south lawn. day, weindependence finished up "the journal," talking about american exceptionalism. all day long on facebook asking you what it means to be an american -- some of your comments from our facebook page -- thoughts atour

facebook.com/c-span. on this independence day, part of our program will look at the nasa efforts to explore the planet mars. we will hear from one of the senior engineers, and then nasa administrator charles bolden on a long-term plan. here is a portion of the comments. speciesmulti-planet survive for long periods of time. in the western world, we think shortsighted. we think about the time in which we will be on this earth, or our grandkids will be on the earth. many other civilizations think much longer than that and we need to start thinking like that. we need to remember we are dependent on a star. the sun is a start, and like many other stars we study all of the time, many of you who follow the exploits of the horrible telescope get a picture --

-- we getescope is a a picture that is no longer. survivepecies is to indefinitely we need to become a multi-planet species. one reason we need to go to mars is so that we can learn a little bit about living on another planet so that when my granddaughter is ready to move away from the solar system we will know more. mars is a stepping stone in a steppingstone approach to other solar systems and other galaxies, and things that people have always dreamed of but frequently do not talk about. efforts tot nasa's explore mars coming up today at 4:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span. >> remind your children in this bicentennial year, when we are the first generation of americans to have experienced a s on thehe -- attack

continental united states. we are the first generation of americans and i felt what it is like to have government buildings attacked, -- americans that have felt what it is like to have our government buildings attacked. freedom is not free. that is the star-spangled banner is about thomas what this year is about -- is about, what this year is about. >> on c-span3, the 200 anniversary of the star-spangled banner. saturday night at 8:00, visit talkingege classroom about radiation experiments conducted after world war ii. sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, a preview of the manuscript on george h.w. bush, and a peaceful end to the cold war. it is called the american pastime and our july 4 holiday

programming on c-span begins with supreme court justice samuel alito discussing baseball . it is about growing up with the game, the players they admire, and the state of the game. then nba hall of famer kareem abdul-jabbar, nfl hall of famer michael irvin and others talk about sports and race. this is almost two and a half hours.

>> good afternoon. as mel allen used to greet his audiences, hello, everyone, and how nice to see you. how wonderful it is to see you and wonderful to welcome you to the luncheon on the subject of baseball, america's game. some people seem confused. they actually think pro football is america's game, but it's not. baseball is america's game. this is sponsored today in part by the boston red sox. i cheer for the red sox. [applause]

i chair for the red sox the great fenway park reuters series. this is an extension of that series. the red sox are the only team in professional sports that sponsors a literary series. i'm also president of the city club of san diego in the denver form -- and the denver for him, which are two american public forums collectively of 70 years and more than 2200 programs presented in the public interest and the dialogue of democracy. this is our second washington event. if there are more that lie ahead, you will help us make that decision. in many ways, if you are going to do a literary series, this is one of the great duties in which to do it. -- great cities in which to do it. there are a number of writers here today. jack carroll, who did the great book on clarence darrow and tip

o'neill. he is right there. hello, jack. jane liddy did two of the books ever, one on mickey mantle, and the other on sandy koufax. ms. levy is down here. [applause] and to every writer in the room, we want particularly to tell you how much we appreciate you and the art form in which you are engaged, because there are very few, if any, that are more important. i have several other introductions i would like to make. first, the former director of the federal bureau of investigations, the honorable william sessions. [applause] and the former council of the president of united states, mr.

george w bush, miss harriet miers. [applause] i also want you to meet the cochairs of the washington writers series, two extraordinary individuals, huge -- hugely successful in the field of business. first, ike fields. ike, stand so we can greet you. [applause] and greg rosenbaum. mr. rosenbaum is somewhere -- there he is. [applause] i also want to acknowledge the

presence of one of the owners of the washington nationals, faye field. [applause] on the senior director for the ballpark experience of the nationals, maggie cussler. [applause] we have one book that is available for signing at the end. there are a few left. don't leave the university club without getting mr. will's book and having him sign it for you. now let me introduce our panel. beginning with from the united states supreme court, associate justice samuel alito. [applause] and you can -- come on up. next from the new york times and pbs, david brooks. [applause]

somebody who wrote a book entitled "is this a great game or what" which was the funniest book i ever read from espn, the one and only tim kurkjian. [applause] and one of my all-time favorites. to know her is to love her, from "usa today," christine brennan. [applause] and finally on the panel, the incomparable -- the incomparable george will. [applause] the book is on the 100th anniversary of wrigley field, a nice little place on the north

side. now it is my privilege to introduce our moderator, who has become a very great friend. you have a copy of one of his books. he has written to others, one on baseball, one on leon jaworski and james baker. he is an attorney from dallas, texas. an extraordinary fellow, he's here with his wonderful family. i would ask that you welcome please, talmage posten. [applause] >> before we begin, i'm going to take a little personal privilege. you see the rangers cap here. at the front table, we have part of the ownership group and executive vice president from the rangers -- from the texas rangers, who have come to town this weekend to play a series. it's the first time that the texas rangers have played a game in the nations capital since they left town 41 years ago as

the washington senators. [laughter] this is an historic occasion this weekend. as george will points out in his marvelous new book "years ago," a man who probably knew nothing about baseball, with sir winston churchill, spoke about parliamentary ideals using words we hope to achieve in the next hour. churchill said a good dialogue is quick, informal, and conversational, and requires a very small space, and on great occasions there should be a sense of crowd and urgency. with a tip of the cap to sir winston, our esteemed panelists today are all people at the top of their field, and are quick and informal and conversational, particularly as it regards our national pastime. we have a good sense of the crowd and a clock that compels a sense of urgency, so let's talk

baseball. the first topic of conversation, your initial passion for the game. bart giamatti once said "the appeal of baseball is intimately wrapped up with the place where you got to know it in your youth." the question for the panel, where did you first get wrapped up in baseball? in that place, briefly describe the place the game takes up in your heart. justice alito, do you want to lead off? >> when i think about summers when i was young, they seem to have lasted forever. that is what my friends and i would do all summer. we played baseball. we collected baseball cards. unfortunately, my strategy then was not to collect a lot of mickey mantle cards or willie mays cars, -- cards, which would now be valuable. i would trade my extra all-star cards for the card of some guy

who played one game. [laughter] so i would have a complete series. and i remember going to games with my family. in those days, we would go to a doubleheader on sunday, i think, for under $15. we could drive to philadelphia park on the street, i tend to games, bring our own lunch. we had a special spot where he was almost an obstructed view seats, but not quite, so it was a good bargain. and we tried to get into the two games before the sunday curfew in philadelphia. you could not in those days start an inning after 6:00 on sunday. christine brennan, how about you? >> yes, there is always a toledo or two in the crowd.

in any case, i grew up in the suburbs of toledo, ohio, and i'm the oldest of four kids. i had my own personal title ix. my father, jim brennan, became the republican party chairman in lucas county in ohio in 1988. a rockford republican and the biggest feminist i knew. anyway, here i am growing up in the 1960's and 1970's and i wanted to follow baseball and he encouraged that every step of the way, as did my mom and siblings. i got one of those scoreboards -- score books, which i'm sure many of you had, and i listened by my radio and listened to the toledo mud hens games. not only were there very few girls keeping score of minor-league baseball at the age of 10, but i was. and it was encouraged in our household. we had season tickets to the toledo mud hens. my dad arranged those for us. and we also went to a lot of detroit tigers games, because

those of you that know baseball well know that the tigers have, except for a few years, been the triple-a team of the detroit detroit tigers. we got a chance to follow our favorites of the mud hens when they would be called up by the tigers and then go see them play at venerable tigers stadium. and like you, i also traded baseball cards. we would do something else. we would send the cards to the players and asked them to sign them, and every single time -- this is obviously a different era than now -- every time they did. and they send them back. but the good old days. >> i have senators manager. i have hank aaron's signature on a baseball, one of those all-time leader cards you may remember where it still said babe ruth, seven-14, and hank aaron and his signature on it. i still have all of those and i'm not giving any of them up. [laughter] >> george, we know of her love for the cubs. where did it all begin? >> i

grew up midway between chicago and st. louis and age -- and at an age to tender to make major life decisions i had to choose between the cardinals and the cubs. all of my friends became cardinals fans and grew up cheerful and liberal. [laughter] i became a gloomy conservative. i played baseball all briefly and badly for a little league team that had commercial sponsors. my team was the middendorf funeral home panthers. [laughter] our color was black. baseball at that time, i think -- as christine mentioned the radio, baseball was literally in the air in central illinois.

you had two teams with browns and then two teams in chicago, and of course, the cardinals. i listened to a lot of baseball. and i think i became a cubs fan because i could not bear the cardinals announcer, who was harry carey. [laughter] who is now the statue outside wrigley field. no good deed goes unpunished. >> and i will tell you, george's new book has a great little anecdote about harry carey, and i will leave it at that. but don't miss it. david brooks, new york mets fans, how did baseball make a line drive into your heart first? >> in 1968, i was seven years old living in lower manhattan and i discover the new york mets. it was fine. they were not good. [laughter] then the next year, the skies opened up, got appeared with the pillar of fire -- and god appeared with the pillar of fire. miracle of miracles, and may the most magical moment of my life and certainly the most magical year in the mets history, every

miracle could happen -- that could happen happened. a black cat walked in front of chicago dugout the mets ed baltimore orioles -- beat the baltimore orioles. and it taught me my life lessons. basically, their goals will happen, and a ball will owe through dr.'s life another year. and you will be a sunny, optimistic conservative. >> tim, how did it start as a child? >> baseball is all we talked about in my house growing up. nobody, but nobody loved or had a better feel for the game than my father. and he was a really good player in his day. i had two brothers in the

baseball hall of fame at catholic university. this is all we did, all we talked about growing up. in the sixth grade, missed fevered, my teacher, stopped class at 1:30 p.m. so we could watch the world series games between the red sox and the cardinals. and for a young guy like me who was madly in love with the game at that point, to have a teacher say, we are not studying anymore, we are going to watch the world series here, that was really important to me. and then of course, i went to walter johnson high school, named after the greatest pitcher of all time. and i played baseball and basketball there, but i also wrote for "the pitch," the school paper. [laughter] and i did some work for the yearbook, and that was called "wind-up." i figured i went to a school and after the biggest pitcher ever. i figured i had to make a career move. i decided i better be a baseball writer and here i am 35 years old and still a baseball writer. [applause]

>> second topic, baseball heroes. bart giamatti said among all the men who play baseball, there is very occasionally a man of such qualities of heart, mind, and body that he transcends even the great and glorious game. the question for the panel -- give us your perspective on the ballplayer who most has transcended the game. george, do you want to start? >> no. [laughter] no, i hesitate, because transcending baseball would be a vice. i will just tell you who my favorite player was. how is that? in my 60 something years watching baseball, my favorite player is rickey henderson. baseball, unlike football where a quarterback gets hot or a running back or a shooting guard in basketball can take over the game, it is a game where you

could not take over the game, except he could. he would get up there in that crouch with the strike zone the size of rhode island and he would get to first base and he would steak second and get heard on an infield out and score on a fly field over. if you look at his numbers, you have to put him among the all-time greats. and if you put him together, as we all do in our spare time, the all-time team, you get to the outfield and you've got babe ruth. and it seems to me, if you're going to play a game, then in your all-time outfield is rickey henderson. >> great. tim? >> i have a few. i grew up here, so eddie brinkman was a shortstop for the washington senators when i was a kid, and he was great. when i met him as a scout, told him what a great fan i was of

him and he looks at me like he could not believe that anyone actually watch him play. [laughter] and of course, frank howard was my hero here, because he hit home runs to places where they are still not hitting them today. and he had been there 50 years ago. during my prime as a kid, willie mays was the best player i've ever seen, and to this day he is still the greatest player i've ever seen. i learned more watching cal ripken as a baseball player come and as a basketball player and others than anyone. and the other day i -- this is the beauty of the game, i sat next to that sampodria of the red sox, who is an inch and a half taller than i am. and trust me when i tell you this -- my hands, which are big for a little guy, my hands are twice as big as his. and he is the m.v.p. in the league a few years ago and he's still one of the best players in the game.

and he looks more like me than anybody. if you were sitting in his room and you did not know who he was, you would not know that is destined for drogheda. that is the beauty of this -- that is destined for drogheda --dustin pedroia. and that is the beauty of the [applause] game. little guys can play baseball. >> tommy, what about you? >> one guy that i still admire and i think played greatly was dave madigan. he had a great swing. the wall across the plate before he would begin his swing and he would still complete his swing somehow. just a short, beautiful little swing. it was just tranquil and serene. i am reminded of rickey henderson, which does treat -- teach you one truth about the game was up it is not a game that rewards thinking all the time. [laughter] i don't know where i got this story, i think most of my

stories come from tim's book, so this could be a repetition. but i recall a story that i would not trust in the paper without checking this out. he was given his big bonus come his first big bonus in the majors. and the team noticed he never cashed the check. and they said, why haven't you cash this check? and he said, i framed it. i wanted to keep it as a souvenir. [laughter] and the other rickey henderson story i know is that he was playing -- he came to the mets and was playing a first base man that were a helmet on his head -- i hope this is from your book. >> it is, it is. >> ok, you tell it. >> is your story. >> you wrote it. i'm not stealing it. >> the first baseman was john orman and he had a brain aneurysm, so he wore a helmet in the field just to protect his head. rickey played with him in new york, and then they ended up together interop so in he sees

john l root -- in toronto and he sees john l root in toronto and he says, you know, i used to play with a guy in new york that laid with a helmet on. he said, ricky, that was me. [laughter] >> the check, by the way, was for $1 million. it was an expensive -- >> the check, by the way, was for $1 million. it was an expensive framed artifact. when ricky was with the yankees, he got on the team bus one day and team rules vary from team to team. he sat down in the front seat and someone said, that is for people with tenure. and he said, tenure? i've got 16 years. [laughter] later in his career he called kevin -- kevin towers, then the general manager of the padres and left the following message on his voicemail. he said, kt, this is rickey calling about ricky. ricky wants to play baseball.

that is why he is my hero. >> justice alito, who is the person who most transcended the great and glorious game echo >> i think without -- glorious game? >> i think without question, the person who most transcended the game was jackie robinson. he was a figure of his stark importance beyond baseball. my favorite player growing up was richie ashburn. why i picked them, i don't know. he was a great player. i also don't know why i picked the phillies. my situation was similar to george's. i lived in trenton, which was halfway between new york and philadelphia. and in the 1950's, the yankees won the world series practically every year. the phillies had never won a world series, so naturally i chose the phillies. [laughter] and i do think it has an effect on your thinking. but richie was a great lawyer. he was kind of a money ballplayer before his time. he almost never hit a home run, but he had a great eye.

he walked a lot. and he could foul off pitches almost indefinitely. you reminded me of a great richie story as we were walking in. he would foul off. he was a left-handed hitter, so he would file off these line drives -- foul off these line drives into the seats. and on one occasion, the ball hit a woman and she was hurt. they were carrying her out, maybe in a stretcher. but they were carrying her out, and the next pitch is in and richie hits another foul ball, hit the same woman on the -- [laughter] >> all right, christine. >> these guys are a tough act to follow. however, in terms of transcendent, absolutely jackie robinson. i think we all would agree. i also have to just throw out a name i mentioned a bit ago, babe

ruth. i bet you there are kids today playing baseball, hopefully just for fun in their yard, boys and girls. and someone is babe ruth today. that transcends everything by decades, centuries, what have you. i certainly think babe ruth lives on in many ways in all of us, and for the best reasons. and again, my childhood favorites were the toledo mud hens who went up to the detroit tigers. and i do have ike brown. we watched him catch a ball barehanded over the outfield fence. he reached out and caught it barehanded and then through the runner out at second. you don't see that very often. and a fellow named tom timmermann. you might remove that name. he played for the tigers when

they were not very good. -- you might remember that name. he played for the tigers when they were not very good. when he came from the mud hens, the clubhouse and the deck out were not sick -- dugout were not together. the players had to walk through the stand. and tom timmermann would say, you again? and it was, us again, as we got another autograph. he became a pretty good pitcher for the tigers during their lean years. those were my favorites. >> favorite teams. our giamatti grew up in massachusetts and his favorite was the red sox, 15 years before the curse of the bambino ended. he said "the red sox are an affliction. the annually reenact the fall of humankind." that is what used to be. "more than anything they re-create the aspiration, and the declining into exile."

as george points out in his new book, the poet robert frost talks about the love affair that people have with their team, but they also have lovers quarrel. what is the worst lovers quarrel you've ever had with your favorite beloved team? who wants to go first? no lovers quarrel and echo -- no lovers quarrel? we've got some rangers stories. [laughter] >> i will jump in. i guess it would not be a baseball conversation if i did not mention the dreaded word steroids and performance-enhancing drugs. johnnie perlto last year for the tigers was suspended as part of the bs drug bust in baseball history to stop -- biggest drug bust in baseball history.

i think we can all agree that is a good thing. and in the tigers had him come back and play in the postseason. i did a column and i thought that was just awful that he could come back. his suspension was up, but it seemed wrong to me. as someone who follows the steroids era in the olympics and in baseball, it's such a huge story and remained a huge story in many ways because of the lesson it teaches our children. we want that scrawny shortstop, boy or girl, and one third of steroid users in high school according to statistics are girls. we want that girl a boy who was a sophomore in high school who thinks if they get a little bigger and try something different they will be like their heroes. we want them to get the message by having these adults who are there "role models" tossed out of the game. i think it is a terrible thing for the tigers to do, to let him play, to let him have the joy of being in the postseason. as you know, major league baseball has now come up with the role come to be known as the johnny peralta rule, that if you are suspended, you cannot reap

the benefits of the postseason, even if your suspension is up, which was the case with her all caps -- withperalta last year for the >> george, your book cover this. >> william butler yates said life is a long preparation for something that never happens. [laughter] basically, any experience of being a cubs fan, there are some any low light. the most important thing that ever happen in wrigley field it turns out didn't happen. the called shot was a myth that as we say in journalism, was too good to check. [laughter] and i say this with some trepidation in front of my tent -- my friends from the texas rangers, because i was at game six in 2011, which i'm sorry. i was at the bartman game in chicago when the poor devil did

what any fan would do, and indeed would a dozen other fans around him were doing, which was reaching for a foul ball that was in the stands. it was not an interference. and if moises had a little tantrum, which to this day he regrets, bartman would not be in the witness protection program, wherever he is. [laughter] leaving that night, this is game six, and we were walking down the ramps and someone shouted "mr. will, we will get him tomorrow." and i said, "not a chance." when the cubs were in the postseason in 1984, they were playing the padres. this is the first two games of wrigley field, the best-of-five. the cubs won the first two games and would play three if necessary and sundry go -- in san diego. i'm walking out of the ballpark with another broadcaster who was a pitcher. and he said, now do you cubs fan believes -- now do you cubs fans

believe? and i said, every cubs fan believes it is the best-of-five. the ball went through the legs of the first baseman durham. >> all right, tim. >> i guess my quarrel was with erle weaver of the orioles, who was with one of the three greatest managers of all time, a guy learned so much from. the first time i met him was in 1979. i was going to be the backup baseball writer at the washington star, and dan johnson introduced me to earl. i was a little nervous about all this. he said, earl, this is tim, and he will cover the team and help me out a little bit this year. and earl looks at me and says "bleep you, tim" and walks away, and that was it. [laughter] but he taught me so much. [laughter]

he made me laugh so many times. and the only stroll -- story that you need to know about earl is that while he was managing one of his outfielders, pat kelly decided to join the ministry while he is playing in the major leaks. -- the major league's. pat waits for the moment to tell his manager of this really big step in his life. he finally finds a perfect moment and he goes to earl and he said, "earl, i'm going to walk with the lord" and earl says, "i would rather you walk with the bases loaded." [laughter] and this last story isn't funny, but tells you an awful lot about earl, and a lot about buck showalter. i was at a simulated game, which tells you what kind of life i lead. [laughter] two years ago, buck -- and i'm sitting with earl weaver at a simulated game. there are four people there and

we are sitting next to the dugout. buck calls me over and i know him really well. don't start me on him either, and because we will be here all day. buck says, we are going to run the pickoff play that he famously invented in the 1960's. buck knows that earl invented this. so he ran it during this simulated game. he said, don't tell earl. buck did that for earl, runs the play and earl snacks -- smacks me on the shoulder and says, that is my pickoff play. meaning, out of respect for earl, they ran this pickoff play. almost 50 years later, earl recognized it and recognized, hey, they are doing this for me. that told me a lot about earl, and even more about buck showalter. >> justice alito, did you ever have a lovers quarrel with the phillies?

>> oh, yeah, quite a few. [laughter] without question, the biggest was in 1964. the phillies were, after having a horrible team, some of the worst teams ever in baseball in the early 1960's, somehow very improbably they were in first place with i think 12 games to go, 6.5 games ahead. it was almost impossible to blow that. they were going to go to the world series. it was incredible for me, having suffered through those years. and baseball has this ability to break your heart. i don't know if there's any other game that can do it quite the same way. because there are these moments when something happens -- and the ball through buckner's legs, or there is a decision someone makes an years later, you wonder if it was the right decision. the phillies manager, gene locke, decided he did not have confidence in the number three and ever for starters. in those days, they had a four-pitcher rotation.

chris short pitched everyday for the rest of the year and they lost. they went on a losing streak. the cardinals went on a big winning streak and the world series came around and the phillies were not in the world series. that really scarred my use -- my youth. [laughter] >> david? >> jim bunning was exactly the same kind of senator as he was a pitcher. [laughter] actually, i was at game six with you that night. it was in dallas at a big ballroom and we watched the game on a big screen. i spoke. it was probably the least attended speech i've ever given. and then six through nine, and pride it was before the fall. because the rangers were winning.

i remember people saying, six more outs, 5 -- ira member people saying -- actually, chanting, six more outs, five more outs. it was terrifying for me, because thomas was going to drive me home. [laughter] the champagne turned to harder stuff as the game slipped away. [laughter] fortunately, the better half of the family whispered to me, don't worry, i will take you home. with my -- with mets fans, there are many feuds. trading nolan ryan was a really good idea. [laughter] the wilpon call the guy called me and said, you should really invest for this guide madoff. -- this guy, madoff. [laughter] the real question for reporters, i've always tried hard to stay away from the team for fear it would affect my love. the press passes used to get if you work for the newspaper. i've done it a couple of times and i've felt acutely uncomfortable in the locker room. i love watching these guys play.

i don't want to see them need not chose. [laughter] i've always tried to maintain a distance, but you guys have kept the love of the game even while intimate with them. >> right, cheating. acts of cheating are secretive, covert acts that seek to undermine the basic foundation of any contest and your -- destroy faith in the game's integrity and fairness. another perspective on cheating. he said, i believe in rules, because if there were any rules, how could you break them? to the question. how does cheating affect your engagement with baseball? who wants to go first? >> there are two kinds of cheating. the cheating with performance enhancing drugs is intolerable because it changes the playing field and requires people either to put their health at risk or their careers at risk.

and therefore has been met with proper sanctions. and i think although we are in an ending competition between the good chemist and the bad chemist, the bad chemist producing drugs and the good chemist finding ways to test for them. it is probably correct her to say we can close the steroid parentheses in baseball, i think we are getting there. as far as cheating -- a great guy in broadcasting said, the only way to lewinsky t --ulowitzki can be playing like this is if he is stealing signs. i say, get better signs. [laughter] for those of you who have not read it, there is an essay about as long as war and peace on the unwritten rules of baseball. don't steal if you are five runs ahead in the seventh inning,

dumb stuff like that. it's a hilarious insight into what baseball considers if not cheating, at least bad manners. >> cheating, tim? >> people have been cheating in baseball whether you like it for the last 130 years. interestingly, i have bobby valentine once -- bobby knows an awful lot about baseball. i asked him, is sticking a needle in your butts and doing steroids, is that cheating? and he said, is -- of course that is. and i said, is nothing a baseball cheating? -- is scuffing a baseball cheating? and he said, of course it is. i said, is sticking a needle in your butts more cheating than scuffing a baseball? and he said, absolute not. the pitchers who are really good at scuffing a baseball are really good at it and can pretty much guarantee success. whereas sticking a needle in your butt does not guarantee anything.

the only guy i've heard put it that way. -- he is the only guy i've heard put it that way. three years ago, derek dieter pretended to get hit by a pitch. derek cheater j -- dereketer is -- derek jeter is our best guy. however you multiply, he is our best. however, he got hit in the bat right here and he pretended like he got hit on the hand and he fakes like he got hurt and he ran to first base and got away from the pitch. and people were outraged. how could derek jeter do this? and i had to defend him in baseball terms that this is what they are taught from the day they get to baseball in high school, if not before. everyone out there is taught as a professional player, you've got to get on, no matter what. cheating is a little tricky for me. i'm not sure i understand exactly what it is, but i know that for 130 years people have

been cheating in baseball. and as tom always told me, if you are not cheating, you are not trying. [laughter] >> justice alito, where do you weigh in on cheating? [laughter] >> i'm going to defend cheating. [laughter] i think the steroids were a real black mark on baseball. baseball is based or -- baseball is a sport where statistics matter. everybody remembers who hit the most home runs, r.b.i.'s. statistics are any more missed part of the game -- an enormous part of the game. steroids should be disregarded, certainly for those who have admitted that they have taken steroids. you have to be suspicious of a lot of the statistics that have been compiled during that era.

i think it really hurt the game a lot. tim makes an interesting point about the types of cheating that are accepted in baseball. certainly, pretending to be hit by a pitch is one of them. or tending to catch a ball that was trapped is another one. that just seems to be accepted. it is interesting, why baseball's approach to those things is different from other sports. of course, there are aristocratic sports like golf and tennis, if you did anything comparable to that, it would be a scandal. in soccer, you get a penalty for diving in and in-hockey -- in ice hockey you get a penalty for diving. i guess the only explanation for that is, if the canadian sport. [laughter] -- it is a canadian sport. [laughter] >> christine?

>> i would repost you that we are still in the steroid area. -- i would propose to you that we are still in the steroid area. happy news, sorry. as a journalist, you are presented the news as it unfolds in front of you and you go with it. we are in the steroid era of sports. 100 years from now, when students are studying holograms or ridding the wallpaper, or whatever they are doing to study history, it will be known, this time, as the steroid era. and that includes performance-enhancing drugs, what have you. the olympics started drug testing in 1972. and the olympics, of course, still have a performance enhancing drug problem. they still catch cheaters, as the lance armstrong solder a couple of years ago was unpleasant for everybody,

certainly the cancer community and the rest of us. it was a sport strategy on many levels. it is also good that we caught him and he was brought to justice. if you think about it, the limbic started -- the olympics started that in 1972 and there are still cheaters in the baseball started in 1984 was up -- started in 2004. baseball is 30 years behind the games. if we look at the olympics as our guide -- and i'm sorry for throwing cold water on the conversation, but if we look at the olympics as our guide, we know that at times are ahead. -- bad times are ahead. the bad chemist will try to stay ahead of the good chemist. i do think there will be designer drugs and new ways to do things and new ways to deal with genes. and when there is so much money out there, and there is way more money in baseball than the olympics, michael phelps would

just be an average employee in the baseball locker room with his salary. there is so much money in baseball. my sense is that they are looking for new ways to do this. i hope i'm wrong, but i think it shows us we have some years to go here -- the olympics shows us we have some years to go here. >> david? >> i'm just thinking about the difference between scuffing and steroids. i think the reason we are not scuffing -- bothered by scuffing is that it is somewhat mitigated by cleverness. that is part of it. i think justice alito makes a decision -- the distinction that in golf, you don't cheat. it is a democratic game, baseball. it doesn't have some of the affectations of the upper-class and finally, it's just a game. and for all we love it, at the

end of the day, it doesn't really matter. it matters in our hearts, but not in the war and peace terms for the i totally admire the staffers. -- not in war and peace terms. i totally admire the ball scuffers. in some ways, the showboating part of the game has offended me more than the scuffing. googling ryan sandberg and hall of fame speech, the speech he gave at the hall of fame several years ago now was among the best hall of fame speeches ever given. he talked about how to play the game -- how he tried to play the game in order to live up to the standards of those who came before and was not about showboating. it was a beautiful moral speech about how to behave with the craft. >> next topic, instant replay. george will once said, "sport should be the triumph of

character, openly tested, not of technology here cap -- of technology." what is your reaction to instant replay? >> i was on the committee that came up with instant replay. although the heavy lifting was done by the committee. i was slow to learn and resistant to all change, until joe torre said, you go to a ballpark and there are 40,000 people there. the people in this week have television and they see the replay. the people getting a hot dog in the concourse have televisions and they see the replay. almost everyone is too poor to have a device in their hands and to the replay. with 40,000 people in the ballpark and four people want to know what happened. they are called umpires. [laughter]

they have to learn how to spell bluetooth. so people don't have to walk over and put on headphones. that is so 20th century. it will get a little quicker. and it will be tweaked and refined. the other day, the pirates won a game on a walkoff replay call. the curmudgeons said, it was a walkoff committee meeting. yes, but it was better than a walkoff mistake. i have come to like it. >> justice alito? >> i think it's a very good idea. chief justice roberts famously said a few years ago that judges are like umpires. i think that is true. the umpires on the field are like the trial judges. and we know they get things wrong sometimes, so you have to have an appeal to the umpires in new york, who review the replay. the only thing that is wrong with the system is it only has

two levels. [laughter] you need somebody to keep the umpires in new york in line. [laughter] >> anybody want to add to the subject of what has been discussed? ok, next question. the speed, or lack thereof, in baseball. last week in the "wall street journal" there was a article that rattle off these facts. in 1954, ball was put in play every two minutes and 29 seconds and wages every three minutes 30 seconds. game time in 2014 is 13 minutes longer than it was in 2010. baseball requires more patience from a society that has less of it. it might have something to do with the fact that between 20 -- 2009 and 2012, the number of children playing baseball in

america between the ages of 7-17 fell by 18%. if you are bud selig's successor as commissioner of baseball, do you do anything to address this issue of the games increasingly slower pace? >> you used the right word. it is the pace of the game, not the length of the game. people complain about the pace of the game to the sportswriters. the pace of the game matters, because tom or gucci has demonstrated that by now, only 81% of the pitches are put in play. the idea of going deep into the count where the starting pitcher will get into the middle relief, which is supposedly where mediocrity is in baseball, and then you win the game. the trouble with the middle relief now is he a 6'4" and 195 and you don't get anything from this. what we are doing, however is having six or seven pitching changes in the game, and they take time was up -- and they take time.

the guy who was warming up in the bullpen comes in and warms up again with eight pitches on the mound, ostensibly because there might be a difference between the bullpen mound and the pitching mound and the field of play, when in fact in almost no ballpark is there a difference. if i could ban batting gloves -- [laughter] it is them believable. everybody has garcia parra disease. [laughter] john miller not long ago watched kinescope of game 7, 1963 world series. yankees-dodgers. he said, not once did either a yankee or a dodger step out of the batters box once he got in. the culture of baseball has changed. talked about a bat that was 10 minutes because the batter would

step out and the pitcher would step off and the whole nature of baseball has changed, starting in the minor leagues. you tell them that their livelihood depends on a younger, more energetic, more impatient generation of americans wanting to see more energy on the field. >> and one way we can do that if we can have guys swing the bat a little more often, which is kind of what george is talking about. adam dunn, a few years ago, struck out looking 72 times in one season. had williams never struck out 72 times in any season, swinging or looking. joe dimaggio struck out 39 times. that was his career high. adam dunn struck out looking 72 times. mike trout is the best player in the game, hands down, and he went a one-year timeframe and struck out looking 53 times. i'm telling you, it's an epidemic in the game that we are also preoccupied with on-base percentage. hey, a walk is better than a

hit. first off, a walk is never better than a hit. it is good. i love them. we have a generation of layered now who are saying, let's walk a hit. let's work a deep count was at let's get it to 2-2. we get to 2-2 and we have not even swung the bat yet. frank robinson told me years ago that he's never seen so many fastballs right down the middle of the plate that people do not swing at. what is going on? this was eight years ago. and it gets worse every single year to the point now where the strike zone is as big as a license plate and the hitters are taking advantage of that and saying, well, i'm going to swing what i want to swing. if i strike out, fine. john kruk always tells me, deep at bat, if you strike out on a

3-2 count, that is not a good at-bat. if you struck out, you think. -- that is not a good at-bat. if you struck out, you stinl. [laughter] >> yesterday at the white house we were talking about concussions. and a lot of parents are saying to their kids, especially boys, i do want you playing football. and of course, the concussion rate for ice hockey for boys and for women and girls soccer are also huge. we see potentially parents saying -- not tomorrow, but maybe in the next 10, 15, 20 years, you know, baseball. obviously, there is a threat of injury and trouble for a child in any sport. every time you walk out of your house, there's a chance you could get hurt or injured or what have you. will we see parents want to start directing their kids back to baseball from football? i don't know what the future holds. but this concussion story is going to be fascinating to watch how that plays out over the next few decades. likewise, one of the things that i have actually talked to the commissioner bud selig about is, you referred to have in the world series on in the afternoon

and be able to watch on tv. how many of us had friends that would bring the transistor radio in to listen to the world series on an afternoon while we were in school. of course, no child today or for the last 20 years has been able to talk about that or say that, much less say what happened beyond what the third or fourth inning of any world series game is, because they have gone to bed. how many kids are we losing because they don't get a chance to watch it? and one last thought. that is obviously concerned. one last thought, i'm actually glad that baseball is a little slower than other sports. and again, how many times i have taken kids to games and watch them enjoy it, watch them talk about it with their parents, maybe teach them how to keep score. use a pen and a piece of paper. it is a welcome relief from the computer and video games. i certainly hope the game doesn't start to try to attract those kids -- yes, video games are important, but just the joy of watching a game with a game with the child, there is still

nothing better than that. [applause] >> i sort of agree with the need to speed up a little bit, but >> baseball is a drama game. a lot of the excitement is the stuff that happens between the pitches. it is the tension about what is about to happen. it is more satisfying sometimes and what really does happen. out don't know where that came from. i just realize that i am on c-span. fantastic. [laughter] so to say one thing about the youth baseball.

for the last 20 years my baseball experience has been 80% youth baseball and only 20% professional. the reason youth baseball is dropping off is because of the slowness of the game that because the for quality of the coaching at the early levels. the practices are just standing around and that is the reason people are playing soccer instead. would you likeo, to leon on the pace of the game? >> i would like to see it sped up. the pitches are part of the fault in the batters are part of the fault for stepping out. i think part of it is television and the time between innings. factort sure that is a in the problem that baseball has with young people. i don't how important it is.

i will occasionally record a football game. you can watch an nfl game in 15 minutes. i might be exaggerating. the time when something is actually happening is very short. the rest of it is time between plays. baseball is an acquired taste. it is not a sport that is appealing to people who don't have the background in baseball. if somebody comes here from europe and you take them to a baseball game, they don't know what is going on up. something is definitely happening. i will tell you the sole story. my son and i went to again here last year. sitting behind us there was a young man with the date. i couldn't help hearing what they were saying. he was trying to impress her. she did not know much about

baseball because she wanted to know whether a ball was a fair ball or a file ball if it started in the air over fair territory and landed in foul territory. she was not going to call him on anything he said. she said what is this batting average? that is the percentage of pitches that the batter hits with his bat. [laughter] this is the biggest sign of cultural decay in the united states area [applause] a final question for the panel. we have people from such emergent areas of expertise. it's about baseball as a tool for civil discourse, people on both sides of the political spectrum. it defies categorization.

the story that i will tell quickly and then let them tell there's, after president nixon resigned from the white house, he was trying to restore his image and he would go on talk shows. room beforee green was his turn to go on and the person who was going to be right after him was william consular. he was the abby hoffman lawyer. these people had been hating each other for years. they had never met. here they are in this room and nobody else's around. they talked about the one thing to they could feel good about and that was baseball. do youask the panel, have a situation where a door was closed or there was some reason that you could not connect with somebody but this subject of baseball brought you in harmony?

itas the woman on the panel, was great on early dates. when a fan that you could talk baseball and keep score. i went to northwestern and several wonderful dates at wrigley field and i would be keeping score with my date for the evening. we had a great time. that helped. i would also say that the thought that comes to mind is the 1968 detroit tigers, ira member at fairly well. they won the world series. detroit was ablaze. many of our cities were dealing with the aftermath of the martin luther king assassination. even peopletroit,

around michigan including tom izzo talk about this. have talked about this. i was in toledo. we are member hearing about the tigers and how they were unifying that city even as it was defying unity with all the trouble. one of the things about the tigers is there were three african-american players who played major roles for that 68 team. orton, gates brown, and earl wilson the pitcher. even as the community was corrupting, -- you had the african-american population of detroit rallying behind the tigers. because of those three players. i think that is a nice story. >> i take a different tangent on

your question. i think democracy is served because temperate messages served. much losing in 162 game season. every team that goes to spring training knows it is going to win 60 games and lose 60 games. they play the whole year to sort out the middle 42. it is a game in which just as democracy is a system of a half loaf, baseball is the sport of a half loaf. 88 orioles that lost the first 21 games to start that season. no team and ever come close to doing that. frank robinson was the manager. he took the writers out to eat

after loss number 18 in minneapolis. anybody hadd if called with advice? he said the president had called me. he said the president of united states called me today. frank i know what you're going through. president,, mr. you've got no idea what i'm going through. [laughter] >> i have never been out of harmony with other people. [laughter] it cements friendships. our children i do a show on mark shields and i do

a show on fridays. he is been doing the show a while. we talk about politics and off there we just talk sports. we are never out of harmony. we are good friends. to have the facility to talk joyful timementing before we go on the air. if civility requires self-restraint one of the great books of philosophy that i have called the abcs of pitching. it is a book about how to control your mind. pitching is about controlling what you are paying attention to. one of his recommendations for pitchers, he is always for offense.

go after the hitter and don't waste a pitch. if you're on the mound should have two things on your mind. pitch selection and location. if something else is on your mind, get off the mound. it is that kind of mental discipline. i am recalling a conversation he said he had with greg maddux. go?aid, how'd it max said 73 out of 87. what he meant was the ball left his fingers correctly 73 times out of 87. it is not focusing on what you can control and limiting your own thought process to what you can do. the final thing i will say is i am always resistant to mix baseball with the rest of life.