complaints, complaints about being cold, complaints about the food, complaints about their living. i saw some of their living conditions. they're certainly far better than many of our homeless, our foster children. we need to stop this foolishness. it's not about a lack of compassion. it's a lack of following the rules. host: ms. williams. guest: i'm going to refer you again to that big treatise on immigration law. there are judges from one district to another who disagree with what that law says. there are immigration lawyers who go to our conferences and spend days arguing about what that law says. that law is so complicated. the problem is nobody knows how to follow the law. the law is difficult to follow. laymen have a terrible time know what the law is.

lawyers, judges, have a terrible time knowing what the law is. we can't be absolutist on oh, if they didn't follow the law, they must be criminals. my next door neighbor grills with a gas grill on his balcony. that's illegal in the district of columbia. he's not evil. that is what we need to look at. that is where we need to show some compassion and some understanding. host: mark's withbeen waiting the line from missouri. >> good morning. i just want to make a comment. i believe that our country, the united states of america is a very

compassionate company. however, we have a nation of laws and we have major problems right now and i think we've created them ourselves. there are laws he enforces and others he doesn't. he's created this problem because he's pretty much just invited south america to come here. and we've already -- we don't have just a few of these people coming in. we have millions of these people coming in. host: all right, mark. guest: first of all, it's more like thousands than millions but i'm not going to quibble with that. what i would quarrel with is the idea of inviting people to come here and we're a nation of laws. laws are not rigid

things that don't take into account the human factor. our immigration laws are so incredibly broken that they pretty much cannot be followed and we have a congress that has been unable to fix it for a decade now, they have known that it's broken but have been unable to fix it. and it is incumbent on any president to do the best that they can to make a law work when it is as broken as it is and when a congress, when an entire branch of government is as broken as it is. host: crystal williams is the executive director of the american immigration lawyers association, aila.org, and we appreciate you being here this

morning. guest: thank you. i'm happy to be here. host: up next, we speak with kurt eichenwald when we come back.

host: kurt eichenwald is the author of a recent newsweek cover story about conspiracy thoerists. guest: you have actual politicians who are repeating

conspiracy theories, who are advocating them. just the other day, you had a member of congress who was saying that the obama administration that was saying that -- medical experimentation on them. this is coming from someone who is an elected representative in the government. and when you have policy being shaped by fantasy, you end up with pretty bad policy. host: what are some of the conspiracy theories that you think are causing the most harm in this country right now? guest: one of the worst is the conspiracy theory about agenda 21. and, you know, i can tell you right now, i said those words and there are people all over the country reaching for their phones. because what that one is -- agenda 21 is a nonbinding agreement that was

signed during the original george bush administration back in the early 1990s, you know, in the u.n., saying that the countries were making a commitment to basically care for the environment, basically to act in ways that preserved the environment, allowed for things in terms of planning, in terms of urban development, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. nothing big. it's a nonbinding commitment. this has turned into a belief in a conspiracy of a new world order that is trying to seize private property in the united states, to grant trees the rights of humans, there are actually people saying they are going to shuffle us off all on train cars and send us to work camps. i mean, it's crazy

stuff. but when you look at it, there are zoning commissions in the united states, local county zoning commissions, that can't get anything done. you can't get bike pads built. you can't get, you know, modest, normal zoning development done because people come out screaming that it's about agenda 21. and, you know, there are zoning commissions -- i mentioned in the article that nobody in the zoning commission knew what agenda 21. they had spent years on a zoning plan and they couldn't do it so they resigned. they said what's the point if they can't do it because people are talking about craziness. host: and you mentioned about health or the health policy realm. guest: the big gun is the

vacciners. they're people who believe there's a big conspiracy between the government and the pharmaceutical industry to hide the dangers of vaccinations. everything has a danger. the question is, is the danger significant or not? the antivacciners are, again, living in a world of these vast conspiracies that are hiding these vast problems that don't exist, that have been disproven over and over again. the problem is we now have a recurrence -- measles was almost completely defeated in this country until the antivacciners came along. now measles is on

the up swing because of the antivacciners believing that this vaccine caused autism and other conditions when there is no reputable proof to back this up. conspiracy theories work backwards. if you think about it, an event happens and you look at the event and say, well, wait a minute, could it be bigg bigger than whatever. and if you're actually asking questions to find out answers, you can find a real conspiracy. conspiracy theoryists take those facts and unwind them on the basis of an original belief. take the 9/11 truther, these are

people who actually believe the bush administration knocked down the towers so they could start wars. what you end up is, well, here's my evidence that leads me to these conclusions, it's let me tear down the official story. and any official story about anything can be torn down if the questions are incredibly broad or incredibly minute. because the idea of a conspiracy theorist is if i can prove this point, i'm proving the vast conspiracy. the reality is i've seen the government in operation, i've been in the media, most of these organizations could not conspire to have lunch. they're just not well organized. host: it's the cover of a recent newsweek cover story. one of the quotes from that story, conspiracy theories have

been woven into society since the constitution. it has now crossed a threshold experts say with delusions, fiction, and are now creating risks. what has changed in this country and the world that has made these theories more dangerous these days? guest: it's a lot of things. you have a much more rapid source of communication in the internet. you create environments where people can go in and get this endless feedback loop where the only information they're getting is from people they agree with. so people who believe 9/11 was an inside job

go to sites led by people who believe 9/11 was an inside job. and they talk amongst themselves where there's nobody to challenge it, nobody to disagree with them. so when you do that, you dismiss the other facts. but when you have that kind of information spreading faster, you end up with blocks of people who believe something, agenda 21. agenda 21 is very big among folks, like, for example, in the tea party. that conspiracy theory has infiltrated the tea party. so when you have a politician who is trying to win votes, they will talk about it. ted cruz has talked about it as being a real thing. not agenda 21 being a real thing, but the conspiracy being a real thing. and, you know, does ted cruz really believe it? i think he's a smart man. i think he knows what it really is. you know,

but you do end up with a question of, you know, does -- is he truly buying into the idea that there is a vast new world order conspiracy to destroy american property rights or is he just saying things he doesn't really believe to win votes? host: we're talking with kurt eichenwald, a senior writer with newsweek. previously worked for 20 years as a new york times investigative reporter who is here to talk about his piece the plot to destroy america. we'll take your calls and questions for the next half hour or so. let's go to oklahoma first where

john has been waiting on the line. good morning. >> good morning. enjoyed your article. i read it in newsweek. i do believe there is a conspiracy right in front of us at the present time. hello? guest: we can hear you, go ahead. >> i believe there's a conspiracy right in front of us at the present time -- host: john, turn down your tv. we can hear you. >> yeah, the democratic party and the catholic church have a conspiracy to bring people in from all over south america. there's 400 million people who live in south america. probably 300 million of them are poverty stricken and would like to come to america to get free welfare, free medical care, free education, free everything.

most of them are catholic and they'll join the catholic church. host: do you want to take on this topic from the point of your article? guest: well, that's a great example of how a conspiracy theory starts. you'll notice one of the things that was missing there, it said here's a fact, now let me explain the vast conspiracy. you don't start off saying, well, wait, there was a meeting between obama and the catholic church and here's the evidence of what was discussed. it is simply taking a fact that there are a lot of refugees comes in from latin america, you know, not a surprising event. it happens all over the world. there's a reason why it's happening now. you know, refugees when there are situations that are bad. nobody is being let in and

automatically granted citizenship and put on welfare. you had about 12 conspiracy theorys in there and no basis for any of them. you know, the idea that somehow or other, you know, the american government has, you know, gone off and secretly arranged to, you know, lure children or bring children, i'm not exactly sure how, you know, the act is supposed to have been done, and get them to the border and then all these other things are going to happen. it's -- it's a creation of a belief surrounded, you know, on top of a real fact. and all of that belief is based on this individual's political biases. he obviously doesn't like the democrats. he obviously thinks the people who vote for democrats are people who are on welfare and the rest.

he obviously has a distrust of the catholic church. and all those personal biases have fused together to go on top of an actual fact, refugees at the border to build this vast conspiracy. host: we have texas on the line. >> good morning. sir, my craft, i do metal fabrication and when i don't do that, i'm working the oil field. and if i'm told to cut corners, if i willingly leave out material on a job, that sullylys my name and black balls me in that field. a lot of journalists today are choosing to leave out the facts. the american people have bad news fatigue. god forbid we

hear a god story from time to time. today, if you're going into the craft of journalism and you're told leave these facts out, don't say that, el pravda from russia has more credibility than the new york times in my opinion. y'all have lost the information battle and pretty soon every print, media, all the fox news, all that, it's all going down. host: mr. eichenwald. guest: i hate to keep saying this. you'll notice there was one conspiracy theory in there, that journalists are being told to leave things out. i've never been told to leave anything out unless i had something that was patentliery dick louse. yes, i've been told that. i've never

been told to leave anything out. i take my reporting and, yes, we have standards. we have standards of what we can say. i have to have proven it. i can't just spin theory. i have to have a document or people who are telling me who are people in a position to know. and people in a position to know don't have to be big authorities. someone who is a secretary, someone who -- he was talking about being told to cut corners. well, that actually can be an actual conspiracy. and i could talk to that gentleman and, you know, if he's giving the information about how a particular organization is telling him to cut corners, that's a conspiracy and not a conspiracy theory and i'd be happy to write about it. but, you know, the legitimate press

can't do what a bunch of folks on the internet do. we have to actually depend on reporting and reporting of events and i'm not saying the internet does not have legitimate reporting, it does. there are legitimate news sites on the internet but there are also the fantastic al sites. sites where there's no reporting going on. it's just taking investigation and combining them and adding belief on top of it. you're never going to get that kind of information coming from the legitimate news media because that's not what we do. reporting is hard. it takes a long time. it takes standards. it takes a lot of practice in order to understand, you know, what is information that is

provable and what isn't. this would be if i spoke to this individual and said you're a craftsman but some guy who is out there banging a piece of wood or metal does it much faster and he gets things out faster than you do. of course he does because he's not competent. you're competent. you know how the job is done. it's the same thing for journalists. there are those who know how the job is done and those who don't. and the one who is don't -- host: as a journalist, have you been accused of being part of the conspiracy yourself? guest: oh, yeah, of course. every since i wrote this piece, i've been accused of being -- in fact, i even say that in the article that the people i interviewed almost universally said, well, as soon as you write this, you're going to be considered part of the conspiracy. and what's bizarre is that, you know, my career has been built on actually exposing

conspiracies. you know, real things. conspiracy theories and conspiracies are different beasts. yes, you can have a theory that evolves on an actual conspiracy but you have to have fact not based on supposition. there was a break in at the water gate hotel and one of the guys who broke in was a consultant to the nixon campaign. that gets you started down a path. agenda 21 was passed as a nonbinding agreement by the u.n. jumping from there to this vast new world order conspiracy, there's not a fact in between there. it's just a jump. host: we'll try to get to as many calls as we can as we talk to newsweek's kurt eichenwald.

rick is up next from texas. good morning. >> good morning. i have a couple of points if you would let me make them, please. host: go ahead. >> as someone with a masters in international policy, ten years with the united nations, currently working for a nonprofit on the border, i can tell you that a conspiracy is whenever the government and the aides just like yourself don't tell the truth to the american people. we don't have the tax base to support our overspending and our debt as a nation. we need new immigrants. why not tell the truth? you're not telling the truth. the administration is not telling the truth. i worked for the iro, organizations within the u.n. agenda 21 is a fact. the planet is under stress right now. we have overpopulation, we

have too many people. and the u.n. with the cooperation of all governments in the world is trying to do something about it and part of that is controlling populations, help the environment. it is all fact. you have lost your credibility by spinning the story, whether it's your personal agenda or a political view that you hold and by not being truthful with the people who can see what's really going on, you lose your credibility. host: mr. eichenwald, do you want to respond? guest: well, it's interesting because he's saying, you know, these things are not being told, we need to expand our tax base, immigration helps expand our tax base. i read the articles about that. we are saying that. it doesn't apply to every single person who shows up at the border. and the circumstances with the kids, the refugees that are coming, there's a lot of

different issues created there and it's not always just now let's talk about immigration and building the tax base which, again, are all very true points. agenda 21 is a real thing. but i seriously doubt this fellow believes that, you know, americans are about to be loaded into rail cars and taken off into work camps which is one of the arguments by the people opposing agenda 21. when you're actually able to talk about what agenda 21 is and its purpose and what the u.n. is trying to accomplish and what powers it has to accomplish it, it's perfectly legitimate and that story is being told. but the problem is that, that reality has been subsumed into a conspiracy theory based on nothing. and when you have the agenda 21 boogy man being used

to stop the adoption of a bike path or, you know, in maine, there was a highway project that was intended to decrease traffic that ended up getting shelved because of agenda 21. not the legitimate agenda 21, the conspiracy theory agenda 21. then you're dealing with that problem. but everything else you've talking about are all stories that are told. there's no hiding them. there's no secret. it's just then a matter of policy debate. i am perfectly happy when people have policy debates. i'm not happy when half the argument is about a fantasy. and, by the way, i'm the agent of no one. i work for newsweek, that's it. my job is to write an interesting story.

host: phil from indiana is next. -- we'll go to karen from indiana. >> good morning. i just had a question of the conspiracy of the trilateral commission. i have -- you can no longer get these booklets and in that booklet it says in this global effort, the industrialize democratic regions to remain unidentifiable community. their focus, however, must not be on the preservation of the status quo, but on arrangements which increasingly embrace the third and fourth world and a cooperative endeavor to source an endeavor. my question is we

never talk about the trilateral endeavor and shows our country is -- in the way our country is. host: mr. eichenwald? guest: first of all, senator luger was a true statesman and a very smart man and i think having lost him in the senate was a real shame. real loss. what you have there was a statement of something that was, you flow -- which is unfortunate because those words are now buzz words for conspiracy. we are in a global economy. nothing will stop that. we are in a circumstance where because we're a global economy, what happens

in third and fourth world countries actually affect the global economy. nothing can stop that. you know, the world has changed dramatically because of improved communications, improved transportation, different demands, the spread of benefits through leisure and wealth. and if you try and pretend that only the industrialize nations are part of that economy, then you're outside of reality. and so what senator luger was talking about what modern economic reality. actually, that sounds like it's from a decade or so ago. and it wasn't, it wasn't a conspiracy. now, do we hear about the trilateral commission? yeah, we hear about it all the time from

conspiracy theorists who believe it's a vast organization engaged in all this subterfuge with nobody able to give evidence of what they've done. it's an organization involved in policy analysis and implementation and that's it. host: you write about people who believe in conspiracy theories. what does the research tell us? guest: it's one of those things that where you expect to read doesn't turn out to be true. the most interesting thing is that conspiracy theorists are more likely to hold contradictory thoughts in their heads at the same time. meaning, for example, people that believe princess diana was

murdered also believe that she's alive. people who believe bin la den is dead also believe he's alive. it's hard to comprehend how people can believe the exact opposite things but that's what the research shows. and, i mean, there's a lot of different things from the research. if you believe one conspiracy theory, you're more likely to believe two or three or four. but it's also what's interesting is that when you have someone who believes a conspiracy theory and then you present evidence to the contrary, one great example, the sarah palin's thing about debt panels being in the

obamacare law which they aren't and never were and what they had was something called end of life counseling which i could get into, but that's, you know. but when they did a study on that, they had people that hated sarah palin, loved her, department care either way. and all of them had heard death panels. they all thought it was real. then they had evidence and the one who is hated sarah palin said, oh, it wasn't true, the ones who loved her doubled down. it's true and here's why that's a lie and you're part of a conspiracy and, so, it ended up that when you gave them evidence to the contrary, they believed the original theory even more. so it's all these interesting things that just go to the nature of the fact that it's very hard to break a conspiracy

theory. host: linda is up next ca carcinomaing in from california. good morning -- calling in from california. >> good morning. i'm thinking about these children. i know, you know, we have compassion for these children but i think the republicans and democrats are working together to bring these children in here. i don't know if these children ten years from now will be walking around with bombs but we need to be more careful about these children. they need to be processed, we need to know where they are, and we they need to go back home. if we can't control our own borders, we can't tell other countries what to do. and then about this flu shot, i've never had one and i don't think people should have flu shots because i think in the next ten or 15 years, people who have taken those shots are going to die.

host: you've already talked about some of the border issues. can you take on the flu shots comments she made? guest: we'll start off with the i think. fine. you think. do you have a medical study that shows something about a flu shot is going, you know, that people who have flu shots are going to die? i've had flu shots for decades and here i am on tv. and, you know, why are people who have flu shots going to die? the other thing -- the other thing to bear in mind here is that, you know, there are people who dedicate their lives to particular issues. there are people who spend their lives, you know, developing means of fighting disease. they go to schools. they train. it takes years and years and years. and then they spend decades doing the research. and they develop ways that prevent illness. i

mean, we had the 1918 flu that killed unbelievable numbers of people because we didn't have vaccines back then. now we do and we may have one of these kinds of flus come around again and hopefully we'll be better protected. but, you know, you have these people who have done the work to get us there and then someone -- i seriously doubt that the person who called in is somebody who has done years of medical research, years of scientific research, spent time in the lab, you know, and has a basis for her decision other than this is what i think and i read something on the internet. and, you know, i tend to believe -- science the difficult. i'm not a scientist. but i do read science and i do talk to scientists, and science is difficult. and when people are willing to make vast

scientific conclusions without even having done actual medical research, i don't mean looking stuff up on the internet, i mean actual medical research of, you know, information that has been, you know, published, real studies, published in a peer review journal. you know, people are just spinning stories. they can believe whatever they want but it doesn't mean that it's real. host: just a few minutes left with kurt eichenwald of newsweek. randy is on our line. >> good morning. i just wanted to thank c-span for finally putting something on about the 9/11 commission. i have been looking at c-span since the william kennedy smith trial and it just refreshing to see that,

you know, you put this guy on yesterday and mentioned 9/11 -- thank you, buy. host: the caller was talking about a segment yesterday that featured the founder of architects and engineers for 9/11 truth. i want to play you a clip from that show yesterday and give you a chance to respond to some of the comments that mr. gauge makes. >> you have to see the evidence to have an informed opinion. when they do, they end up agreeing with us. that's extremely important. it's also telling why are they not informed? why hasn't other media outlets such as cnn, msnbc, cbs et cetera shown the the world trade center building seven to the american people? why haven't the american society

of civil engineers and the american institute of architects educated their professionals about the thirst word structural failure in modern history. why are they so uninformed? host: what do you take away from that short clip from yesterday's program? guest: i always like it when people say why aren't people informed. i've read engineering reports about this. and, you know, what's interesting is when you get right down to it how mundane the nature of the reports are. they are very technical. but they go down to things like weight distributions and, you know, the structure of supports and how, you know, when you move -- when you remove this item or have that event take place, you have, you know, a

distribution of weight that causes -- i mean, it goes on and on like this and it's not as exciting and sexy as, you know, some conspiracy to knock down a building, why they needed to knock down building seven, i don't know. but -- seemed like the first two did enough. but, you know, in the end, not everything is a conspiracy. some things just are what they appear to be. and, you know, that usually tends to be the reality of things. always the best question to ask is why. why would this conspiracy take place. why would people, you know, why would people think they could get away with it? you know, just on the buildings, why -- why would they try to knock down buildings to start a

war? you don't have to knock down buildings to start a war. you know, you could have had a terrorist attack of any level. you didn't have to destroy two major -- three actually major architectural buildings. why do we have to -- why would the united states agree to surrender property rights? we have to create this vast majority of people. but they don't exist. why would the drug companies fight to create an environment where people, you know, intentionally being harmed? and it's -- sure, people are out there now yelling at the screen, for the money. there are not drug companies. there are tens of thousands of people who work in these companies. if

something like this was going on, i promise you, someone would be blowing the whistle. there are people who are morally outraged about something and who talk. now we're talking about vast conspiracies that are killing and maiming and harming tens of thousands of people supposedly. they're not true. and nobody of any credibility is blowing the whistle. nobody is coming in with the documents. nobody is coming in and saying here is -- here is proof of what i'm trying to say. it's just stuff people are saying. host: kurt eichenwald is a senior writer with newsweek. he's talking about his story the plots to destroy america in the may 15th edition of newsweek. we appreciate you being here this morning. thank you so much, mr. eichenwald. guest: thanks for having me.

host: and that's our show right here. we'll see you back here tomorrow morning. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] nati 2014] national cable satellite corp. 2014]

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