going on. local department and justice. those have to be accurate and clear, they need to be thorough, and before conclusions are reached, they need to be complete. i know -- i have said certain things have come out sooner than they did, but that is not the point. the point is where we are standing right now. rl that were not out yesterday, but that is not the full picture of anything. those are some facts that came out. i'm not saying that they are not important or relevant and we cannot forget, they are pieces of information. >> [inaudible] do you think the case has been mismanaged? ,> the focal point remains figuring out how and why michael brown was killed, and to get justice as appropriate in that situation. appropriatehe about bothof angst

the substance and process, what captain jackson and his team are attempting to do -- excuse me, captain johnson -- is to make sure that folks have a chance to give their voice as well as keep the peace at the same time. >> [inaudible] >> i think everybody saw a clear d operationale an activities yesterday. >> [inaudible] >> i think there are a lot of steps along the way that will cause angst and pressure.

that is natural and appropriate, frankly. a young man killed, an officer involved. a great deal of energy, appropriate, accurate, real energy. i think we will look at those guideposts engage them accordingly, but we are hoping to make sure that during this process, this difficult, challenging process, that there is focused energy and peace to the businesses and people in the community. >> will the protesters be allowed to protest anywhere they want? or for their safety and everyone safety -- i do not know. i was the captain run his security -- will let the captain run his security. >> [inaudible] >> we are focused on our responsibilities here.

looking at the way that ferguson has blown up, how do you look at the other institutions around the community that are failing or losing their accreditation. michael brown graduated from high school. he was going on to further his education at a trade school. [inaudible] >> some of the schools have already started. has -- review has. normandy opened on monday. we have to make sure that they have opportunity. how do we get to the long-range issues? we have to do a lot. that is not a simple question. but i will tell you, making sure

we improve the quality and access to education and provide an opportunity for all of our kids. public school is the backbone of our state. i do think it is especially challenging with some of the issues that have arisen. >> [inaudible] our city schools are closing, governor. you are the head. why are our schools closing? why are they being sold off? >> we can continue our discussion because these are major issues. let me just say that we have seen challenges in st. louis city schools. i do not need to get micro-about this, but as you see the gains made this year, investment in preschool over the past few years, the leadership of dr. adams, i think they are making progress.

>> [inaudible] the greatest change has occurred after the removal of military style police. has that made you consider the use of this across missouri? >> after things are done you always do a hot wash later on and analyze. i know the patrols and the academy watches all the stuff and tries to do better each time. i think we are learning a lot but i do not want to be critical of anybody as to what they've done. i made the decision i made to give the order to the colonel to shift the operation and that has made a positive difference. my expectation is it will continue to pay big benefits for safety and security and the opportunity to get justice as quickly as possible. >> [inaudible]

let's take two more questions. >> [inaudible] st. louis county is doing it separately. >> [inaudible] >> that is a local operational choice. >> [inaudible] >> i think there are going to be some bumps along the road to justice. i think there will be some moments of angst between now and the finish line of this process. it is important that during the appropriateot see energy of a mass outbursts, but instead to make sure that justice is served, so i think there will be a number of points

along the way. being governor, wouldn't you say details have come out in the case and not fax? -- facts? [inaudible] >> information was released. >> [inaudible] i did not mean to nuance it in that way. information that i had not seen, that none of these guys had seen came out. the captain has already answered that question. >> [inaudible] why do you think that information today came out about the supposed iraq or he -- robbery [inaudible] >> i don't know. >> one last question, we have to wrap up. >> [inaudible] we are focused on the

operational situation we are in now. i'm not aware of longer-term problems. >> [indiscernible] [inaudible] >> monday asked for the department of justice investigation. on tuesday and wednesday i appeared in the community. on thursday i appeared in the community. on friday, i'm here. whatever folks are saying out in the community -- >> [inaudible] these people are on the outside looking in. our brothers and husbands and fathers and or friends have to go through this every day dealing with the police. we talk about this process being transparent. keith jensen rolls out the name of the officer along with pictures of a probable cause for

michael brown being shot and killed, and then he does not take questions. that was like a blowback to our face. his demeanor, his presence, the manner that he presented this information was very sarcastic. it was not responsible. this is our community. if we have people like that in charge and we do not people -- need people like that. we need people who are sensitive to all people. i am a mother. a lot of people out here our parents. have children and families we love. if we cannot trust our police officers, who can we trust? who can we trust? [applause]

if you take the oath of being a police officer, you should protect all people of color. [applause] what is going to help us bridge the gap between the disparity? >> two things quickly. i think you saw, you continue to under the orders i gave to the kernel in this community -- >> [inaudible] >> captain jackson will be here. he will be in your community. thatan rest well assured he is communicating, we are communicating back and forth. i think he is a little better trained than me. tohink he has more skills deal with the challenges here than i do on the ground. i have full confidence that he and the patrol will do a good job. i would ask everyone, as the process goes forward, we are

trying to make sure there is an open way for folks to express their energy, express their concerns while protecting the property and getting this process to its necessary conclusion in a timely and complete session. i would ask everyone to follow the lead of the captain and do the best you can to respect that. your concern, sunday night the governor was involved, monday, a lot of things that went on behind the scenes. he has been here in conversation. one thing i will say about the governor, he said this is not about him. this is about each of you. he has been here all week and he came yesterday. and he came today. we have had other incidents in the state and i cannot remember a time when we have had a governor for five days be involved and showing up to be here. when my phone rings and i am talking to the colonel or the

governor, that does not happen every night. >> [inaudible] >> i have been talking about that. there are bigger things that have to happen after this is over. there are things that have to happen after this is over so that we can get better. they need to continue to happen. diversity, having more minority officers in our community, more women in the police department. all of that needs to happen. the only way that will happen is if you demand it and we listen and make it happen. >> [inaudible] is there going to be a change in where protesters can protest, anywhere in the city, a change

where they will have areas to protect them for their safety, protect the roads? >> the area last night where the protesters were, we have poorer potties down there, barriers. we will be there. we will make sure that they can be there and stay as long as they want. >> [inaudible] what time do you want me to come back? >> [inaudible] they were redirecting them to my street. [inaudible] >> where was that at?

>> [inaudible] they took out the military-style riot gear. [inaudible] still lock up people in mcdonald's and are not bringing trucks back to the community. >> was that occurred last night? >> [inaudible] >> it is a new day. >> those were still police officers. someone gave them orders. someone gave them direction. it may be a new day but i have to live through hearing bomb around thes and then corner i hear about someone being shot. how can i feel comfortable and safe?

what is going to happen for those of us that are still here [inaudible] [applause] how is it going to be a new day when all of my relatives are asking, are you ok, are they still looting? [inaudible] it has to do with everything but the case. after this is over, i will be with you. i want the media to listen to what she said. my phone is ringing and it is saying the same thing that she is saying. show what you saw last night. she is talking to you. ok, i have to go. i will see you tonight at the quick trip. thef you missed any of

briefing with remarks from missouri governor jay nixon and state highway patrol captain ron johnson, you will be able to see it in its entirety online at www.c-span.org. reports, there are two new developments in the case of the fatal police shooting of an unarmed black teenager near st. louis. police have released reports and documents showing that the shooting victim, michael brown, was killed after a robbery in which he was suspected of stealing a $49 box of cigars. police also identified the officer involved in the shooting, darren wilson. he has been on it and should it -- administrative leave. "the hill" also has this article today. cummings saidijah today the situation in ferguson, missouri has the potential to be a turning point when it comes to race relations and policing. he prays the change in security announcementhe

that the highway patrol would take over security from law enforcement saying they improved a horrible situation. says, we muste address the deeper problems that created this can't what. cummings is a member of the .ongressional black caucus that is from the hill today. live now to the center for national interest for a discussion on russia's intervention in ukraine and its implications for the region and the u.s.. we joined in progress. humiliateat russia, russia, to have control over russian resources, as it was in the 1990's, and use this as an additional resource in further confrontation with china. if this is the mega strategy, i can understand that. but everybody must understand russia fights for its independence, sovereignty, and i

would like to finish with this phrase. each time america is fighting the war which is for american interests, america is the winner. each time america is fighting a war which is not for america, america is losing. i would like everyone to remember that. >> nick? take it away. paul noted that i met the u.s. naval war college. i am on leave today and to stress that, i'm speaking in my own personal capacity, not on behalf of the naval war college since that is part of the department of defense, certainly not for the department of defense. we have reached a point in this today, according to news reports, we may now the first incidents of direct clash between russia and ukrainian military units.

this report of armored personnel carriers crossing the border, ukrainian government making claims that part or all of that column was destroyed. so we reached a point, and yet, when we look back come of this was a very predictable crisis. his is not one of these issues ande somber faced spokesmen women can come out and say that this was unanticipated, we could not have known that this would happen. we had very clear indications all along that ukraine mattered to russia, that these were clear red lines for russia, that russia would enforce its red lines it never crossed, and would take -- if they were crossed, and would take steps necessary. it does not mean that the u.s. has to agree with that, but we should've been better prepared for this crisis. instead it seems that we are very reactive. we wait for events to develop on the ground and then we react to them without necessarily a sense of why these things matter in

the larger picture. i will refer back to the event we had on ukraine here at the center last summer when it was very clear at that event that ukraine mattered to the west only up to a certain point, and at that point, in december 2013, the assessment was that if russia was willing to loan the $15 billion to support the ukrainian economy and to essentially subsidized ukraine's energy bills, well, ukraine mattered but not much. now we are in a situation where a few months later and ukraine has been elevated, apparently, to the status of a vital american interest but there has not been much of a conversation as to why. what has changed between december, where we were more or less resigned to the fact that unicode which would stay in power, that he had these lifelines from moscow in terms of loans and energy subsidies, to now where ukraine has apparently become vital to the security of the western world.

therefore, it's important for u.s. and european policymakers to be able to explain that shift, why that has taken place and why this matters. i don't think thomas from my perch out in the provinces, that that has been met, that that level has been met. suddenly why ukraine, which was not a vital national interest a few months ago, is now suddenly a vital u.s. interest. with that, because we are reacting to events, i think it makes it much more difficult to be able to find a way out of this crisis because if we cannot articulate, we the united states and the western community of nations, the u.s., canada, european allies, if we cannot articulate a clear policy as to why ukraine matters and what state we wish for ukraine and resources we are willing to commit to that, then it makes it much or difficult to be able to engage in any type of negotiation or diplomacy with

moscow over the future. with that in mind, let me point out a few of the issues going forward that we will have to deal with. mentioned and we have had a slew of practitioners who have laid out what appears to be to defuseble process the crisis. a ukraine with a neutral status not affiliated with any block, ukraine that is decentralized, where more power devolved to the regions, where regions have a much greater control over their foreign economic relations as a way out of this crisis. but we have not yet done with and have not answered, what happens, from the american perspective, if our political allies in the ukraine do not want to do this. do we force it on them and say as a price for continued western support you will have to do this? or do we simply and a blank check and say whatever you wish to do, we will support you?

which then raises a second question, which is, what is the nature of the support that we have been willing to give? we have sent extremely mixed messages. we are very good with rhetoric about peace and freedom and support for a westward path, and then when the details need to be filled in in terms of actual commitments to finances and actual security guarantees, it becomes a lot less clear what we are prepared to do. i think we need to be much clearer now and to lay out exactly what we are prepared to do. what are our limits? what are the dollar amount limits, security limits? if the ukrainian military and russian military deliberately or accidentally begin combat operations against each other, what exactly is nato and the west prepared to do beyond, obviously, decrying those actions and condemning them?

again, two people in the they have to kiev, have crystal clear assurances and to be perfectly clear as to what the west is prepared to and is not prepared to do. a. where ises questions think there will be gaps opening up between rhetorical commitments of western governments and actual action. the euro zone, based on economic data released today is now essentially on the tipping point of going into recession, that it is not simply that there will be less growth, but no growth and perhaps even the beginning of an economic recession. this comes at a point when europe is not fully recovered from the damages it sustained over the last several years in economic terms. what will happen in various countries as the impacts of that economic situation begin to take hold in the days and weeks ahead , and certainly, what happens if

ukraine passes the legislation that would suspend the transit of russian gas across ukrainian territory to western europe? that would certainly restrict the energy supplies that europe could receive from russia and would definitely push europe into recession. willingness, the how much will transatlantic solidarity hold up in the months ahead when support for ukraine is no longer seen as a no-cost or low-cost impact choice and begins to take a real political cost? those issues need to be worked out, and they need to be worked out in the context of a transatlantic relationship between washington and europe, which has been rocky as of late. we are not dealing with the situation where there is always a great deal of trust between washington and its interlocutors across the pond, particularly germany, relationship between

chancellor merkel president obama definitely is not the strongest. so how will that move forward in the weeks and months ahead? , we also then need to look at another question which in certainly a number of statements out of the u.s. government and key figures within the government, certainly political figures, which is what ultimately is the aim that the u.s. seeks with regard to ukraine? and with regard to russia? because it is clear we cannot go back to assuming that we can reset the reset. in fact, the reset of 2009, 2010 defended explicitly on ukraine being taken out of the geopolitical chessboard. we all think the reset started in 2009, but in fact, the reset did not gain much traction until unicode which was elected in 2010 and took ukraine

essentially out of the competitive geopolitical competitive zone between russia and the west in terms of his outreach. so the extent to which the administration's policy depended and was dependent upon yanu kovych, or a similar figure, if that could have been developed without the corruption -- but a prepared towould be do the balancing act between east and west. if we do not have that figure repair to do that, what is the u.s. policy? is it simply to acquiesce and say whatever the current government in kiev wants as u.s. policy? that is an approach the u.s. could take but should be very specific about it. if not, then that needs to be communicated. but when it comes to russia itself, the other question is this that will need to be faced

squarely and perhaps goes beyond the canon of this particular meeting and may need to be the subject of a series of meetings to be held. u.s.tially, does the require regime change in russia? we are not talking simply about a change of individual leaders, that is president putin and president obama do not get along, they are not going to go out for hamburgers or socialize. that, is theyond essential direction of the ruling elites in both countries at odds with each other, and that one cannot have a , thattive relationship all reports are that they are inoperative until there is a shift one way or the other. ukraine may be forcing this question of sooner than we had wanted to address it, but that is really the unspoken question that remains in the room. even if we do get ukraine

stabilized in the short-term term, cease-fires, movement on certain issues, fundamentally, is it possible, certainly for the next several years, for moscow and washington to have anything other than perhaps very chilly relationships as long as the governing elites in both countries remain the same and the interests are structured with the way that they are? of course, with that is a related question, to what extent is the united states going to make relations with russia part of the organizing principle with its ordination of -- organization of other states. certainly, turkey is a close another country where the u.s. has had rocky relations as of yet -- late. the turks have agreed that they want to purchase $3 billion more of cubic gas. the austrians and other

countries are full speed ahead on the south streamline. brazilians, the indians, when secretary of state kerry went to new delhi, the indians politely but firmly indicated that despite their new relationship with washington indicated politely but firmly that despite their new relationship with washington they were not going to sacrifice their relationship with moscow. and of course, the chinese are more than happy to welcome a .loser relationship with russia not only china, but other countries as well, and asian economies are happy to step in in the coming months to fill in gaps in technology and goods that may have come from the west , to find new suppliers in korea, japan, and elsewhere. to what extent will the u.s. be trying to compel or corral other countries to sustain a

particular approach to russia as with some of our other experiences in the recent past, it may be one where we find that we are trying to lead out front and then we see that there are not too many countries following our lead on this, and what are we prepared to do in our relations with other countries over ukraine. alternately, it does come down to this question. clarify why ukraine matters. of reacting to immediate crises i don't think will serve us well as we move through the crucial months and weeks ahead. >> thank you both for your comments. let me ask both of you a very pointed question just to start off the discussion. do you think russia will invade

ukraine, and if so, what would be the trigger for something like that? >> you know, initially, at the , whening of the crisis applied force, it was a very clear signal to kiev that russia can use force. after crimean events and after mask -- ofe of the damask, it might be another prevailed because russia

goals without direct intervention. is near to collapse. the ukrainian economy is in collapse. ukrainians are fighting each other in kiev, everywhere. there are private armies .ighting in east and south whoink everything depends is going to collapse first. the decision in moscow will be made as a result of this kind of event. american television is not showing it at all. it's a shame.

schools, hospitals, civilians houses destroyed, people killed, .housands killed 800,000 people crossed the russian border. a couple hundred thousand moves -- moved to the west. this is more than a catastrophe. but there is a fantastic level of cynicism in the questions. either it is total ignorance or cynicism. i would like to think the state , buttment is not idiots probably synnex. -- cynics.

there is very serious pressure on russian leadership. practically all leaders of political parties in parliament are demanding recognition of this republic and direct , unlimited.ply to find atill trying peaceful solution. but washington is in silence. >> you applied in your answer that if the rebel forces , and it looks like they .re about to be defeated >> we know the brutalities of .hese different battalions

a couple of people already tried . if there will be a decision to take these people into trial, nobody knows where they will go torea at you have to kiev -- >> do you believe russian special forces contrived to take ukrainian territories? >> i don't know. by the way, it may sound absurd, but when i am watching some of your senators and some of the comments on international issues

, or msnbc, or especially foxx news, i hear so many lunatic things. in russian television we have a proposal that it might be time to bring these guys and punish them because they deserve punishment. [crosstalk] sentenced bydy are juridical authorities. iny organized mass killing .ther places

they are using rocket launchers, heavy artillery, arms in peaceful places. , this is vox pop you like a lot of people are populi.g a lot of people are demanding that we do this or that. we have this in russia a lot. >> it is clear there are very different perspectives in the united states and russia. god we have, thing a very cautious and sober president.

in the direct and figurative sense. he is not drinking at all. if you could respond -- >> i was wrong about crimea. i didn't think the russian interest was served by alienating voters from the body politic, but let me take a stab at this. we have seen in ukraine, as we have taken in other -- as we have seen in other parts of the volunteers and people of uncertain provenance and the like. i guess yours is more of a 20th-century style invasion of regular forces clearly identified. that i would say no unless

certain conditions are met. it's very clear from the russian side, looking at the russian , that there is pressure to act. already we have been hearing federalization needs 2015 or beyond. we cannot move on it. we are also hearing that if the government cuts off the energy transit or something happens to the energy infrastructure -- and that has been a real force on all sides. because as long as energy is still flowing -- and it is still flowing right now. receivingstill natural gas from russian sources.

a move because of government action or because something has happened to the pipeline infrastructure, i think it changes the situation and makes military action a greater possibility. on as i said, i was wrong crimea, so don't hold me to this either. ambassador burke. we have a microphone. >> thank you. i want to challenge a couple of , thecentral theses today first and i think most important washington isehow the only place that counts in thinking about a solution to this problem. i think you totally underestimate the role that

europe has played in this crisis. from the very start, by the way, this began as a kind of confrontation, for better or for worse, between the eu and russia and the eurasian union and the association agreement. of how itk in terms has developed, the europeans have played a critical role here. make is the story that never happened. point i would make is what i would call the story that never happened. the alliance in disarray is very important. for the most part, the united states and europe have stayed very close together. but i also challenge the idea that this is because washington has forced these craven europeans into agreeing to a tough sanctions policy. is, ift of the matter

you look at the sanctions and ,ow they have been ratcheted up basically the europeans and united states have stayed in lockstep. over timeu have seen the emergence of some real leadership in europe on this issue. in part, that i think had to do the downing of the malaysian airliner in the aftermath, the treatment of the victims. i think that resonated deeply in europe. it had a big impact on public opinion. and if i could focus for just a moment on the most critical country, germany, you have seen a remarkable change in public attitudes in that country toward russia and putin himself. show thatecent polls there is almost an 80% overproval in germany

russian policy. that's unheard of in recent years. there has been an important opinion shift. if anything sent a strong message to the russian iternment in recent weeks, wasn't the obama administration's decision, but the eu's decision to move to stage three sanctions, which in some respects were stronger and more comprehensive than the u.s. sanctions. by thes driven not only leadership of angela merkel, but french, andsh, the even the italians. conclude, in to your last remarks about what russia needs or wants, when you

outline the notion of some sort of neutral status for ukraine, some protection for the russian speaking population, some degree of decentralization, i think maybe you shouldn't look to washington for that kind of agreement at this point. for a lot of reasons, this administration has a lot of other issues on its plate, and you may not be able to get a very good audience, but what i would tell you to do is go to maybe that is the party that needs to take the , and if the russian government looks at this purely through the lens of this is some kind of american run operation, you may lose a good bet to achieve a diplomatic solution to avoid a full-scale confrontation that would come from your escalated intervention in

ukraine. >> ok. >> i agree and i think president putin understands there is no angelar and -- from merkel. and he is on the phone with her more often then with mr. obama. said a very interesting thing in his interview with the new york times, which i read at least -- i don't know what was the perception of the others -- he said it is not going to be a cold war with russia -- very strange, very interesting, but the rest of my term i will not be able to deal with russia on any issue, something i am

explaining the meaning of what mustid, which means moscow write off washington as a but this is force, not the case in kiev. , since secretary rumsfeld, europe is delighted -- divided. new europe and old europe. and people in moscow would like to get money. ,hey would like to get euros but they are not listening to washington. washington clearly formulated in favor of ukraine and that russian language must be the second national language. idea.ccepted the

this country is federalized and nothing happened. and that's it. to get outase of how of the crisis. everybody is saving their face. russia is saving their face, and kiev is saving their face. as far as it concerns europe as a whole, i don't think, again, -- this is from armenia. it might be the president. it's a joke. [laughter] themselvesnk that by europeans would like to impose any sanctions. under enormous pressure of washington.

all of this is intervention. that is why they are doing this. russia is not libya, to leave behind. >> we have the finnish ambassador here, who i think has on europel comments and european positions. i understand madam ambassador that your president may have just met with president putin if i am not mistaken. we have a microphone. >> thank you for this discussion. i was thinking i would not comment on anything. but i cannot help it. i cannot help commenting.

the european union is 28 countries. it ise have a discussion, always lively. we are not necessarily the same opinion. we are reaching compromise. the foreign ministers of the released a press release before i came here. the european union is increasingly concerned about the crisis in ukraine and the humanitarian impact. it underscores its unwavering support to the sovereignty and unity of ukraine. and we stand side by side with the u.s. with the sanctions. , if you look at the , the u.s. istions

much more involved with the economic cooperation than with , so the sanctions are coming to our per for leo. we are trying to understand. the sanctions are much bigger in some countries than in other countries. mine is one where the impact is relatively big. when the milk is not coming from

finland or other countries, there is simply no milk because there is not production of the milk or you get very expensive milk. belarusian milk or kazakhstan milk. the sanctions seem to be getting more severe in russia. russia has been asking for a big financial package. >> $41 billion. >> to work in the russian economy, not to be stored in russian coffers. was looking,s -- i of course, at some of the allsions what we have been

it is crisis saying that a simple case that russia has violated the principles of international law and international commitment. i remember in 1975, the soviet union was looking at what was nonchangeable. the u.s. and the west were in the finalckseat act. it was a compromise, and i think a good compromise.

you referred to the finnish prime minister. if you look at the finnish media, and i was looking directly at the finnish media, of course we have this discussion about the impact of the sanctions, but at the same time, the prime minister was we stand firmly as an eu member in the sanctions. president putin is in the hot seat today. i have not gotten the insights yet, but i was looking the first seven minutes, in the beginning, my president did call to discuss

the ukrainian crisis. in the seven minutes of the the presss release .as thrown out of the room the press was coming to discuss the horrible situation in ukraine and whether we could find a political solution to .his it'sestion would be -- and important to hear that this forum is assisting. it's sad to hear that the positions are so far away at the moment when we would need and military support

and there is a violation of some of the principles. at the same time, we should really find a solution where ukraine, russia, united states and european union are sitting at the table and really looking at the possibilities, how do we get out of that. the european union has firmly assist.to ukraine could not commit to fulfilling the criteria. this is now a different situation. we have been looking very carefully and there has been already action on that side also. athink we need urgently political solution, and that is the key issue.

to you, i would say it is not in russia's interest to have a divided europe or ukraine. or for ukraine to be unstable for a long time. ukraine is too important. to get is the action now to the table and reach a solution? what are the red lines you foresee? >> thank you. i agree with what you said. since helsinki, 13 new countries have emerged. more than 20 or 25 in europe, borders are not unchangeable. they are changing. actiona'said

in crimea is absolutely in accordance with international law. this is clear. this is crystal clear. territorial integrity and the right of a nation for self-determination. involved.at and great powers, this is their habit. .hey are picking if they like this, they take this. if they don't like this, they take this. i would like to tell you one thing which really very seriously struck me. for you to understand the modern russia.

the grandson of molotov said on that now herograms is the chairman of the education committee in russian parliament. very influential member of the circle of people. thatid isn't it a shame russia supported the koreans, , latintnamese, arabs only ones and the they are not supporting our the russians in ukraine. russia supported all of them. by the way, america also is so-called rebels in

syria. cia is training them. we have nothing against that because this is a humanitarian catastrophe. absolutebe an mess in the region. when yout would happen acted in libya, when you acted in europe, and now we see how the situation is developing. and again, this is not our choice. the ball is in the western court. russia's position is clear. i think on one of the tv what is i said

necessary to do. it's very clearly known in washington, when you college wanted to use force -- tenneco janokowicz wanted to use force, they picked up the phone and said don't do that. it's very easy. you need to have political support and leadership qualities. this is the lack of political , and this is commonplace, unfortunately, in western political discourse.

unfortunately, the tribe of leaders is multiplying, unfortunately. >> chance freeman was next. >> i think the problem with sanctions is that they entrenched differences. they create market distortions, which in turn create vested interests in their continuations. they are hard to remove. unless they are clearly linked to a negotiation with clear objectives, that is the inevitable result. also of course create fear, , in a have seen that here .reat deal of the public sphere my question from the beginning

, since it would seem to be in the interest of all is arned to remove ukraine point of contention between east and west and help ukraine achieve viability as a state and , why isn't anyone talking about the president of the austrian state retreating. it took austria out of the east and west, established it as a .eutral country applied toel were ukraine, there's no eu, no nato membership. everybody in russia and the eu arearticular are helping -- pitching in to help ukraine with

problems. why would that not be a logical solution, and why isn't this being discussed? time talkingt of about how we got in the mess we are in end no time talking about how to get out of it. so my question is what is wrong with the austrian state treaty model? nick, perhaps we could start with you. >> in theory, there is nothing wrong with it, but that is what politicians on all sides would have to say they are ready to agree to. the block on our side is excepting the austrian model essentially says yes, there are limits to the growth of the community. for the last 20 years we have said the community can have unlimited growth, keep growing, keep going eastward. treaty said there

is a limit to europe, a limit to the west, and here it is. i don't know that we have the political will on our side for someone to come out and say that, to say this is the line over which nato does not cross. the president when he voted for the 2007 bill, which essentially said nato membership should continue going east as far as possible, he would have to then andnd his vice president his former secretary of state who i voted for would have to -- wer vote in 2007 is .re repudiating it it's a feasible option, but there is a political cost. and i don't know that it is for this town to say this is the

limit for the eu, this is the limit for nato. i don't know that is a winning hand to play. >> i am sure russia will be very much in favor of this kind of treaty. way, during that period, every one was envious of finland because they were getting the best of both worlds. finland splurged and became one of the most advanced countries in the world due to their status. you could teach people in key of some lessons on this. >> madam ambassador, i understand you might want to respond to that, please.

>> i wish finland were a model for ukraine, but our history is completely different. had our own parliament before we were independent. we had a democratic parliament. >> we had a russian czar who left all of this in place in finland. also.were fighting a war the other one was after our independence, we were never conquered. we were one of the few countries in europe was not occupied. so the situation was -- of course we had a reality check after the second world war. verye were able to create

.ood relations to east and west we have been now since 1995 as a , weer of the european union have the least corrupted democratic system in the world. >> and everybody is envious of you, including me. >> it's not at all comparable. i wish it was. >> i have four people on my list. >> it's also a very advanced country. -- twothe to keith's keiths. i will write a book down. we have five questions, 20 minutes. everybodymake sure has a chance to ask a question

and get a response, so if i could encourage the two of you, really, to limit yourselves and giving answers. and they want to ask one question about the sanctions. just a one minute response. we had a discussion about the impact of russia's agricultural sanctions on europe. your remarks said that russia's sanctions were very targeted. were those sanctions also targeted at the united states, because as i think back on the history of the u.s.-russia relationship, one very notable participant in our american debate was then senator joe biden, who for many years was in wto accessiona's

and at some point became opposed, and it related to a .ery specific issue of chicken american chicken exports to russia. that the russian government was attempting to send any kind of signal to the through the state of delaware? has russian policy finally cracked it? we have a very serious program. 14% of our market was this poultry. now the number is 6% or even less. all in all, it's about one billion agricultural products. went 10 seconds to say --

want 10 seconds to say another important thing that i will emphasize. agricultureid in was long overdue. he he couldn't do it because was afraid prices would go up, some problems would happen. in order to stimulate local agriculture. but now, this is a fantastic , and people do this can take this because they have to do that. it was a silver lining. this was a chance. note crisis -- no crisis should

go unused. >> would you say that it is mainly to the benefit of people who like president putin and live in rural areas and mainly at the cost of some people in urban areas who do not particularly like the president? no, because the limitations concern some products, we get a lot of substitutes from different places. there is a long line of countries and companies who want to sell their product in russian market. there are a lot of sellers, a few buyers. this is the reality. >> let's move on. i wanted to get my question is.

ruth.start with >> let me claim spiritual purity what happenedght in kosovo was not red. -- good. we said that because it was preamp your language, territorial and -- free preambular-- language, it was not a matter of territorial integrity. i was also not in favor of nato. seriously bute perhaps mistakenly underestimating the spoiling for a fight of putin's own personality. this is a guy who likes crisis. this is not an ecumenical, whatanded, contemplative

started mean if france ,anding troops in québec announcing that the people were ?ppressed and mistreated that's the analogy. it's not simply the spontaneous uprising of an unhappy people. an outward imposition of a revolution and in that sense, a , strategically dangerous spoiling for a fight from putin. this is not coming from the bottom-up, in my view. questiontake susan's and then get responses. >> that's a useful segue. were mentioning, both of you, the narratives on both sides. inre is a narrative

washington that putin's aspirations for ukraine are part that man fold throughout the former soviet union. i wonder what you would answer to the person who spoke to me yesterday and said the baltics are next and it would happen before the end of the year, and what would you say about that? >> let's try really to keep it brief. think it's the fantasies of sikorsky and fantasies of the , becausepublic leaders nobody is thinking to grab these territories. nobody needs them. have any strategic, economic, or any other kind of interest.

i was in kazakhstan, and i was asked the same question. next is cause extent, next is this, next is that, and i said and thatow the fear right away people will say what was said here. i am not going to repeat what was said until nazarbayev is a front runner for eurasian integration in former soviet space. he has nothing to worry about. he once integration. people are living. russia is still very safe and protected and no problems. we are solving problems when problems are becoming ripe. no problems.

and everybody understands. i know that this is a thatcative discussion maybe nato article five is not usable for the baltics. made an uglywski and derogatory statement that they were doing different kinds of sexual services to americans but that they don't feel themselves secure. russia has nothing to do with these crazy people over there. it will take several generations for them to recover. >> i think it is less that it's going to be a test of the baltic states because there are legal commitments there, but it is a

reminder that you don't make promises you don't intend to keep. i think the ukrainians are discovering that a virtual article five is not the same article five.tual i think sometimes people are led to believe that. i think that's really where the dividing line is is the russians are not going to cross. they have an awareness of where redline sarin they are not going to cross that. they have tools in the baltic states and economies are one of them. but i don't think you're going to see an overt military challenge. >> we have andy and then keith.

>> thanks. i will just make a couple of comments and you are free to respond. latee apologized for being . i missed your presentation. >> it's unforgivable. >> i know, and i'm going to be punished. you said that people in the cynics,epartment are s and maybe rightly so. you're respond that minister of foreign affairs is a pathological liar, and your president as well. it is well known by everyone that material from the russian federation, war material, has been crossing the border for months. it has been denied as a bald face lie by the russian government. , there are problems with

media, but i have to say, i spent six weeks of the past four months traveling through central asia and south pockets and had an opportunity to watch more russian tv than i ever wanted to. i also spent three days in in july, and in the 35 years i have been traveling to the soviet union and russia, never have i seen such unbelievable media propaganda as has been going on in russia in .he past six months 13th whene on july one of the most absurd stories was propagated. claimed that when ukrainian authorities took over

they hauled out the local population and had them witness [indiscernible] of a three-year-old boy. i was watching this going, me --, someone is killing kidding me. i think what is being perpetrated to the russian population is really at odds with reality. if we look to the future, i think we are in agreement that is for theretion to be some kind of peaceful negotiation to get out of this, because we are on the precipice of a total catastrophe. there is an escalation between russia and ukraine, that is a complete catastrophe for ukraine, first and foremost, but for russia as well. it has been striking to me as to

why the negotiating solution has not been pursued with greater .igor if i were to call our government and the west, i think we do need to sit down and be more it could about what that --d also simply there are four scenarios. one, all-out invasion. least likely. scenarios aren't escalation that would not withstand sanctions or that would be met with increased sanctions, or supporting the insurgency and bleeding ukraine drive. is not ukrainian economy

in a position to take a whole lot more of this. i would expect that would be the strategy of moscow, which is why i think it is more imperative to try tot for key of reach a negotiated solution to get out of this. whattrying to figure out is russia's policy to see -- well, ok, stroke of has disappeared but he is replaced by a ukrainian. another guy disappears and is replaced by a ukrainian. humanitarian convoy, don't quite know what the story is there. claim of a military convoy that came across the border and was destroyed by the ukrainian military. >> nick mentioned that. we have just seven minutes, why don't we take

comments from everybody i have left on my list, and then we will give you a chance to respond briefly at the end. >> first on the economic side, i am an economist. the russian economy is about 6% of the eu. we have a situation where the russian economy is now in thansion and higher levels the ukrainians. if russians really think the , i finds are cost less that -- i don't understand that. it's quite expensive for russia. my sense was they were willing to incur the costs. to say what ike think which is that russia is not a serious country. it has a conventional military about the size of germany's in poland's put together.

this is a country that does not respect its agreements, so i think the view is you cannot view it. >> thank you very much. let's go to keith darden next. >> keith darden, american university. see as the do you future of the insurgency? road, whatdown the kind of ukraine do we have and how would that compare -- it seems that russia's involvement has not been producing a less and thatned ukraine, the country has so many pathologies on its own that in action might be the best way to

achieve a desirable result. >> we had one gentleman at the end very briefly, and then we .ill give everybody a second >> to make everybody's life i am just going to give a comment. moscow is popping up in a number of comments here. from theg to refrain legal discussion, whether it is proper or not. i think what this shows is that ist happened in coso's case what you are saying it's sort of the opening of a pandora's box.

essentially, we have entered a phase of very dangerous reorganization. various players can use this approach and make all of their cases. since we are trying to have some progress when it comes to our is oneblem, that solution, but the problem is how long will it take and what sort of dialogue? the other question, if you have .ime this is diplomacy. mentioning of the regime change. that is one of the things that

very often appears. is it realistic to talk about at this point? expect thattic to someone who comes after this government might be more sensible or easier to talk with when it comes to russian-american relations. >> thank you very much. i think we have several very important comments and questions from the group here. it's three minutes until 2:00. we should really end at 2:00. if each of you could just take and make one minute any final closing points you would like to make. quite -- thet's easier to answer

question that was asked about what would happen with ukraine is russia just forget about ukraine. put that in my on nationalch was interests. we could have the worst aggressive anti-russian country at russian borders. for the year since the last census until the census which several years ago, 5 million russians disappeared and ukraine. going to be forced ukraine russiansion, and the will be kicked out. that is one option. the other is an extreme nationalistic russia and nato. what russiatly

expects. this is the biggest nightmare, which could be if moscow is thinking this way. i wrote about that, and this is -- i know how it's going to be because if anybody guilty andthey were harm which was done was done by russians. second there was a change.

this is the choice which are choosing. ornomic influence distraction of rush as country. this is the choice, this is the existential choice for russia. liberals, you can see in are unitedia, people arend the leader and they ready to sacrifice. the level of [indiscernible] the threshold of pain and russia's different. that in europe and america. do not forget about that area that is important. case ofght only one

falsification. i happen to see that on the russian shall first. i witnessed that fact. denounced bye was -- a thousand times. falsification never has been denounced. that is the case. there is a serious propaganda war and the truth is the first [indiscernible] in propaganda role. that is the first level of line.

>> we have a compromise solution, why are we doing it, because we have people who say -- inwhy compromise and ukraine. if ukraine will collapse in the rp should -- europeans will link. they are still floating through the house he process and your other question it is not just there was the prime minister. as long as he thinks there is a solution, his eyes he thinks that russia could be convinced to sell gas of the border in western investors are lining up , the prime minister is still quite influential. we have to dialogue.

>> thank you for coming today. discussion.cative it certainly makes clear what a big gap we have yet to bridge. thank you. >> we have the asian american journalists association is holding its annual convention in washington and this afternoon their hosting a panel discussion on the media and how it covers asian american and immigrant issues live at 3 p.m. eastern live on c-span. tour takesn history us around the country for stories from the civil war. we will look at the old slave mart and charleston, south

america -- south carolina. here is a look. >> in a remarkable scene late that day the union troops will penetrate the confederate line at multiple lines of most simultaneously and the confederate army retreating back down into georgia. with that success of never retrying five and up pursuit on the 26th and 27. chattanooga is firmly in union hands and it will be turned by the union army that coming base, into a giant supply similar to our forward operating bases today. it is from chattanooga that following spring that williams comes to sherman. and advance southward from

chattanooga to atlanta and into that military industrial heartland and disrupt it and destroyed much of it and bring the war to a close in spring of 1865. observers and participants at this time believe that union success here at chattanooga was a signal of alternate union success in the war. some had said this was the death knell of the confederacy. >> you can watch the american history tour of the civil war at 8 p.m. eastern. we'll have more from book tv with hillary clinton on her memoir. and then schapiro and glenn ringwald. it is market history tv, all tonight at 8 p.m. eastern on the c-span networks.

here's a great read to add to your summer list. a collection of stories from some of the nation's most influential people over the past 25 years. crexendo is that there is a risk in them or him in lifestyle and i decided to take it because whether it is a delusion or not, i do not think it is, it helped my concentration. it stopped me being ordered dashboard and other people. make me have a longer conversation to enhance the moment. if i would do it again the answer is probably yes. hoping to get away from the whole thing. easy for me to say. it would be hypocritical to say now and i would never have touched the stuff of iunknown.

i did know. everyone knows. many of the problems are sought the and begin at the beginning. about the attempt to control all parts. when you do that, when you try to control everything then you position and potential dissidents everywhere. if you tell all artists have to pain the same way and one artist says i do not want to pain that way you have just made him into a poor -- a political dissident. if you want to subsidize housing and we want to talk about it and the populace agrees it is something we should subsidize them put it on the balance sheet and make it clear and evident and make it ready where have to much it costs but when you deliver it to these third-party enterprises fannie mae and deliver it, when you

through a public company with private shareholders and executives who could extract a lot of that subsidy for the cells that is not a good way of subsidizing homeownership. >> christopher and -- a panel of the -- 41 engaging stories. now available at your favorite bookseller. come johnson moderated the discussion on the future of news at the atlanta press club luncheon. joining him is the new york times public editor. this is one hour. >> we would like to get started.

that may remind you this program is being taped although taped is not the right description in the new world of technology but this is being taped for c-span so do not embarrass yourselves as i might. also the microphones are used and i regret that in some ways because those of you on the side of the room need to come up and we will create a short line here to recognize your business being done primarily for technological reasons. do not let it discourage you from coming over we get to the q&a. i should have introduced the person who has been the mover and shaker in getting most of this together. that is a person who worked with me at cnn years ago. she is the executive director of the atlanta press club and that

is lauri strauss. her grandfathers bob strauss. i wanted to ask mark to kick it off. calledis out for while "the death and the life of american journalism." there is a quotation and it. the book is dedicated to build lawyers. he says this is a crisis for journalism that is also a crisis for american democracy you're experiencing it right now. i think you.

-- thank you. i have met somebody wonderful people already. to tom tovery much encouraging me to come and all of you for being here. i think -- i am afraid i might have been oversold a little bit in the sense that i cannot tell .ou what the future news is i would challenge anyone in this room or the world say with the future of news is, it is in flux. there is a figure bit of journalism and eric city who wrote a blog post several years compared thehe face that we are in right now given the great digital changes in terms of its scope is that occurred when the

printing press was coming into its own. thathe complete upheaval was happening at that time. we are going through change like that right now. because we are in the middle of it we really cannot now what the effects are going to be because we're living through it. we can identify some things are happening. that printcan agree is in terminal decline. i have been in the newspaper business for a long time and i love the sound of the ruhr of

the press is in the smell of ink but the truth is that we are not going back to that heyday in toch newspapers were able make vast profits, able to hire it will, and really a very comfortable. life is no longer very comfortable in the world of newspaper journalism at all. we are scrambling to figure out a way to survive and to thrive into what is an uncertain future and the present is pretty uncertain. there are some interesting things going on. one of the interesting things is happening at the place i work now it's is the new york times and that they have successfully after several unsuccessful up a wallnd situated

are 800,000there digital only subscribers to the new york times and it is bringing in lots of money. milestoneting occurred a year and a half ago in which traditionally as many of you know in the newspaper business advertising revenue was the way that the whole thing was powered and circulation revenue was a much smaller part of where the money came from. printe of the decline of but also because of the success of its digital subscriptions, about a for its head year and a half or two years ago. so now, consumer revenue at the and --th in subscription

consumer revenue is has surpassed -- it has surprised advertising revenue. nowumer revenue is surpassing advertising revenue. that is upside down of what used to be. it is a big change and a heartening change. it means that something is working and we all want something to be working. the thing i would say in terms of looking forward is that there of -- there are values in think is very important that the values to that changes the business changes. and the values that i hold dear and i try to write about and encourage are those of fairness and accuracy, and accuracy has

gotten much trickier in the digital world because we are so fast now i we can put things up and there is so competition that we feel great pressure to do so. so accuracy and fairness and that there is a discussion about whether the news business should be adversarial. adversarial with government and business? this stinks and that an editor -- not necessarily adversarial or independent so we are not in anyone's pocket and we keep our independence and represent what is best for the readership. as the business changes i hold those values because it think they are the things that

,ltimately are going to injure they have to endure, and they will make only do worth paying for. i do think that quality journalism is worth paying for and people are finding it to be so in all kinds of different forms. we are trying experiments right now. some of them are working and some are not. we have to be quick to try them and quit to abandon them when they do not work and to move on. in our very unusual time business, there is an exciting time and it is also scary. when i came out of graduate school and went to work for my hometown paper i had reason to think that i could stay there for a long time and in fact they did and became as chair of the paper. i do nothing that happens very much questions these days and the idea that you

can stick around for 30 years probably is a part of the model anymore. so that is a little bit of a scattershot overview and i would love to tell been to the subject or deeply. lex it is very timely, this is an article and i was planning to wait -- the headline is it is not just jill abramson. women everywhere are getting pushed out of journalism. tour false? crexendo not know where that is from. i would like to know. i have not seen it. jill abramson was until recently the executive editor at the new thereime to was fired and

was a great deal of discussion about whether this was propelled by sexism or gender issues, i think my feeling is that it did not represent some kind of institutional sexism. i do not think that is the case by think you can say by that -- there are no gender related issues here. i know, someone coined the expression editing while female. a dangerous thing to do. there are some tricky things about editing while female but i also know a number of very wonderful and strong women the future i think is bright for women who are

going into journalism and they are going into journalism in droves. i teach at columbia university journalism school and the classes are much more heavily female than male. i guess that speaks to the pipeline. >> i appreciate your comments and i have a few of my own. the atlanta press club is putting this together. i will give a couple of comments in the same vein as margaret. i am looking forward to the questions afterwards. if you have a good christian right down, afterwards created what i think about the fugitive days i think about it through a couple of different lenses. one of them is the business model.

there is a trend going on where news and content of all forms is breaking off from bundles to individual pieces. in our business the morning package on your doorstep was always sacrosanct. youpaid $.50 for it and knew what you pay for. today there is a growing trend of people reading through the morning package of news and picking and choosing the article they like. and providing color commentary. that is an interesting change because in the old days you read the paper and get to the opinion section. now that opinion comes from your friends and family and business

associates story by story. it is much more targeted. the articles are picked out of the bundle and sent to you. we still make most of our money from friends. the on the list soaking but more and more it is going digital. we sell a package of video which andhe majority of cash flow you pay cable for bundle. more and more there is talk of pricing and people not wanting specific channels. to.le say they will like -- two pick and choose the stations they get. espn.mber of cnn our

it is subsidized by selling the entire bottle to everybody and they would have to pay more to make up for the revenues said the more expensive if you had in yeah --aration of all the consumer sentiments went over time. most of our money is still from the 90 plus. the 90 minutes of news at the end of the day on tv stations. less triples the data watch the 90 minute news broadcasts beginning to end than they used to. cox is a nice legacy of driving higher ratings during the news than the network programming and we do that specifically in our companies, most do not. strong newsretty

program. it is harder when people are picky and teasing individual pieces of the bundle area -- bundle. i do not know how the is this ball is going to turn out. it used to be well-known i make one he and how you're going to make money in the long range plan now. it is unclear how it will make money but we do plan on sticking with it. it is what gets us up in the morning. we love news and we love our hometown. the second thing is the cultural model. to societyews mean and to all of us and for me that goes back to the beginnings of our company because our first is smallver in 1898 was a newspaper in dayton, ohio. it was the number five and a five force race.

my great-grandfather purchased offor the rents the sum $26,000 and said he would have -- rather have a failing working of his own then for someone else. he found that accuracy, integrity, per -- perspective, balance wins out and not pandering to the people in power can make you money and make the world a better place. >> he became governor and he ran .or president roosevelt was his vice presidential candidate. -- a free term government governor and a congressman. in public service. it is a service. it made a lot of money. it is a public service and -- at its core.

there is three branches of government to provide checks and balances and the famous supreme for justices that is not enough. that does not do it. you still get too much corruption. there has to be a fourth estate that watches the watchers. what we have found is that through the changes in our business model, and through everything that was previously known and unknown, will people value the most are the political truth meter. >> on behalf of the journalists in the room, the impetus h hc is putting on reporting is essential to this community. if you need a great example, the type of reporting you did on our school boards in atlanta. i just want to tell you from that perspective. [applause] i think it is that type of indispensable reporting that is

so critical to us as readers and citizens of our various communities. thank you for that. beent to tell you it has spectacular. it is a type of indispensable reporting that is so critical to us as readers and citizens of our various community -- communities. going to my grandmother's house and i rub -- remember her picking up the paper and holding it in her arms. >> a remember her holding the copy. things have lightened up. we were forced to make a lot of changes. there were forced to make a lot

of -- ask questions about what is truly important and what is going to keep us here in the long run and all the research and the obvious arrows pointed -- watchdog investigative journalism. thing that will have the out of the paper one of them is not low voice -- local watchdog. empowering them is the core of the business. i was thinking about this this morning. my great-grandfather and his will road a lot of these gems of information that he left for the rest of us and i wanted to read a passage i wrote. these newspapers because he was talking about his assets. they should make themselves champions of the rent so the

people of such power shall be used as an encroachment on the rights of any individuals. i asked my children and trustees to recognize these obligations. we have other things that make money and one thing we do not forget is the legacy left to us which is the fourth estate accuracy and championing the best interest of our community where we live. so hopefully hopefully we will continue doing that. in some ways the future of news has never been brighter. if you think about the access to information, people are not dependent upon the one newspaper at their local newsstand. whether it be in a revolutionary state in tehran or somewhere else. also -- so the technology and the access to aggregate data, cookies and google, and apple,